Addressing an issue with the Dutch

[dutchdemocrat]

The Cloggies are irate - there's no doubt about it. From the left to the right, Theo van Gogh's murder.



because of a film he chose to create on Ayaan Hirsi Ali



Who is a woman outspoken against for the freedom of muslim women. And now cannot move in Holland without security 24/7.

Holland is one of the most tolerant societies in the world - and has been for hundreds of years.

But how are you going to defend a group of rabid Moroccans kicking the living shit out of somebody because they are gay? In a society that accepts homosexuality? This is the crux of the argument in Europe.



If you want to live in Western Society, you have to accept our rules... our tolerance levels. Accept others for who and what they are? Can you understand that?

Or not?

Do you agree or disagree?

[Vladimir]

1. I disagree that the issue is the 'rules'

as you said yourself, Holland has been one of the most tolerant and multi-faceted societies in the world for hundreds of years, and that was hundreds of years when tolerance was much rarer globally. I think the chief problem now is, as almost always, the economic conditions for these immigrants, both within Holland and where they came from. And then it becomes easy for a rabid minority within the immigrant community to decide they are going to kill or injure homosexuals - I think not so much because they are homosexuals, but because tolerance toward them is very symbolic for Holland. I think there would be no problem with immigrants accepting our tolerance levels within our societies if we were willing to apply these tolerance levels in dealing with the societies they originally came from - sadly we are mostly interested in colonialising them.

[Name removed]

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[dutchdemocrat]

12. Wow

That's a pathetic excuse for others kicking the shit out of gay men who simply walk the streets of Europe's most open city?

[Vladimir]

21. Its not an excuse, its an explanation

Look, the easy part is saying: this is disguisting. The hard part is understanding why its happening, and what to do about it. For sure, homophobia is part of it, but I really don't think its the root cause. Now if you disagree with my analysis, then lets talk about that...

[The Magistrate]

22. In My View, Sir

Viewing the injured persons as symbolic of Holland in the minds of the perpetrators is going a little too far than is necessary for the minds of muggers and mopes. They do not like the look of some person, hate "queers" for, in this case, reasons of religious preaching, and act accordingly. They may an excess of liesure owing to unemployment that leaves them to cultivate "masculinity" in various phantasmic forms; they may feel they, or more likely their fathers, made a bad mistake coming to the place, and resent the prosperity they see around them; but these are not concious spurs to such an action. They quite likely are more moved by preachings against "decadance", because this allows them to cultivate a sense they are superior, despite all appearance to the contrary, to the object they attack. Some may also, in their poverty, have experienced predatory solicitations by homosexuals with a letch for foreign youths, a fairly comon theme in European homosexual fantasy, and been moved to great resentment by this, as well.

[Vladimir]

23. There is certainly something to

what you say. They attack homosexuals because "this allows them to cultivate a sense they are superior, despite all appearance to the contrary, to the object they attack", but superior in what sense? I doubt the attackers are consciously thinking about their economic condition while they are carrying out the assault, but I think that is the underlying motif to their disaffection, in this case manifested through an assault on homosexuals. You are quite correct that the attackers resent homosexuals, but I doubt that they would have the time or inclination to attack them if their economic condition was otherwise. After all, they would have something to lose by doing so, whereas now they have very little to lose. It is also precisely this poverty and lack of opportunity which allows those who preach 'decadence' to maintain an authority over these immigrants. Fix the economic problems, and the religious will fix themselves, but attempting to treat a 'lack of respect' towards 'Western values' without addressing the economic imbalance will not get us very far I fear.

[The Magistrate]

24. That Is True Indeed, My Friend

Unemployment certainly gives them the time, and the freedom, in the "nothing left to lose" sense, to indulge in such behavior, and thus economic circumstances are a contributing factor, but they are certainly not factors that provide any direct spur to a particular incident, or that operate directly in any sense on the decision to beat someone.

The sense of superiority cultivated is a moral one, a sense that allows the feeling one is superior in spiritual as opposed to material senses; a sense that one is better than the other, more than human while the other is less than human. This is a thing that can operate at any economic level, unfortunately, but it would not be wise to suppose such concerns do not operate on street-corner thugs; in my experience they certainly do operate in the minds of such types, though they are not too well expressed....

[theboss]

26. Would you make the same argument if Christians were the attackers

I call this the Galloway Syndrome. There seem to be those on the Left who have no problem attacking the hypocries and violence inherent in Christianity yet seem to balk when these same issues arise in Islam. The fact is that nearly a billion people are in countries where the most radical forms of Islam are the norm and where even a nominal "love the sinner but hate the sin" tolerance is taught.

This is a major problem.

And look at it through some PC prism of the "poor oppressed Third Worlders is dangerous."

[The Magistrate]

27. Mr. Vladimir, Sir, Probably Would Make The Same Argument

In that case. He is a pretty consistent fellow....

Stating that there are nearly a billion people living in countries where the most radical forms of Islam are the norm seems to me a dubious proposition, that you might wish to explore, and better inform yourself concerning.

[theboss]

31. I think I'm close to accurate

There are between 1.2 and 1.7 billion Muslims worldwide.

There are 150 million Pakistanis, and despite their status as one of our "allies," it's hardly a hot-bed of tolerance.

There are 66 million Iranians. I would call the official brand of Islam "radical" even if much of the population rejects it.

Afghanistan as 28 million Muslims. All of whom lived under the Taliban's brand of radical Islam.

Africa/The Middle East has about 400 million Muslims, most of whom in states where anti-Western attitudes are prevalent. I eliminated Turkey from that count, even though it's hardly a model of stability these days.

I want count the 200 million Indonesians since I honestly don't know enough about that country.

So, the number is probably about 750 million Muslims taught radical, anti-Western views. That's still a lot of people.

[The Magistrate]

34. Anti-Western Attitudes, Sir

Being prevelant is a long sight from "the most extreme forms of Islam" being present.

Even by the relatively mild criteria of Shiara Law having civil force, yopu would be hard put to demonstrate your case: nothing approaching a majority of the worlds Muslims live under regimes where the civil police enforce Shiara.

The fundamentalists are indeed vocal, violent and dangerous, and wield an influence accordingly out of proportuion to their actual number. But it is unfair to a good many Moslems to call them predominant, or to conclude that a distaste for political and economic policies of the United States demonstrates an adherence to radical fundamentalism on their part.

[theboss]

36. But I think the issue is the way the dictators use Islam as a safety valve

Pakistan does not have Shiara Law. But the government largely turns a blind eye to what is preached in the mosques, because it takes the focus off what is going on in Islamabad. It makes the underclass in Pakistan prime recruiting ground for whatever jihadist pops his head up. The bet Mushareff makes is that the jihadist will always look outward first. Hussein used the same approach in Iraq after the war with Iran; prior to which, Iraq was probably a "moderate" state. A similar state exists in Syria; the regime is hardly "Islamic" but the cutlure is. Assad has always been able to move the most radical of his people into Lebanon and now Iraq and away from him.

[The Magistrate]

37. Pakistan Does Have Shiara Law, Sir

And has pressed prosecution for blasphemy recently. It was institited after the earlier coup of Gen. Zia in the period after East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) was conquered by India. Pakistan may well be, on close examination, the root of the entire problem of fundamentalist reaction in the modern era, being the first state consitituted with allegiance to Islam as its sole organizing principle.

But the distinction it seems important to preserve is the difference between hostility to the West among Moslems, and radical jihadis bent on violent erection of a Caliphite: the two things are quire different.

[Vladimir]

28. Of course I would

in the sense that I believe economic and class issues to be at the heart of almost all prejudice and hatred in the world today. I may well be less charitable towards Christian fundamentalists, but that is because they have historically represented and served the interests of the ruling class.

It has nothing to do with looking at things through a PC prism - the immigrants are poor, they are oppressed, and they are treated like shit in the countries they come to. None of that makes their attacks on homosexuals or any other group in society less disgusting, but you are not going to fix the problem unless you understand its causes. Which is not to say that those who incite to violence or commit violence should not be persecuted, of course they should.

[The Magistrate]

29. It Is Worth Pointing Out, Sir

That fundamentalism in all religions has tended historically to support ruling classes; one of the reasons socialism and Communism made such scanty imnroad into the Near East in ther esarly portion of the twenmtieth century was owing to the imfluence of conservative religious adherences. It is a recent accident of history that has allowed Islamic fundamentalism to appear as an agency against a ruling class, and take on an anti-colonialist guise. Should the tendency gain sufficient power, the example of Iran, among others, is sufficient to demonstrate its clerical leaders wouyld simply consitiute themselves as a new ruling class steeped in tyranny and corruption indistinguishable in rotteness from its predecessors.

[Vladimir]

32. Very true

and this is why the issue needs to be considered in non-absolute terms: in Iran, the theocracy does of course serve the interests of the ruling class. On the other hand in the UK, Islam is very much in opposition to the ruling class' current imperialist project. I agree with you 100% that its quite a tightrope to walk, because ultimately my instinct is to be militantly godless, but I think my instinct is wrong in this regard, as in many others...

[The Magistrate]

35. My Own Inclination, Sir, As You May Have Gathered

Is to go with that instinct; it is a sound one....

"Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it is pretty likely to be a crime to examine the laws of heat."

[kenny blankenship]

33. fundamentalism is incipient totalitarianism

--it lacketh but occasion. Something I bear in mind when regarding the movements of Christian fundamentalists here in the United States.

[kenny blankenship]

25. Bullshit

Your excuse is exactly like saying racism was not the main motivator of the KKK. Then following that "logic" nothing about the racism of white dominated segregated society would need to be addressed until poor southern whites who made up the rank and file of the KKK had their income levels brought up to parity with nothern whites. There would have been no point in addressing the racism until the underlying economic cause had been treated --according to your view. The campaign of terror against blacks that accompanied segregation was only about economics, economic resentment and economic insecurity right? Really it wasn't the racism of white southern society but the economic hegemony of the north that was to blame. Intervention from outside the south would have only made things worse, right?

No, on second thought it WAS the racism. The overt racial discrimination in public institutions and the covert campaign of terrorist violence had to be faced politically by the rest of the country, and dealt with directly as a police matter and as a social cause independently of any supposed economic insecurities or resentments of the white south.

And the violence, and gynephobia, and homophobia INHERENT in religious fundamentalism of Islam no less than Christianity is to blame in this case. And there is NO EXCUSE.

[Mizmoon]

2. This is a very painful topic

I have always admired the Dutch and their culture from the very first time I traveled there and saw the money with the sunflowers on it. I knew these were unique people. (I can't believe they went for the boring Euro, but I digress)

The last time I was in A'Dam was just before Theo's murder. My host said to me, "Be careful of the North Africans. They're worse than ever." I tried to forget he said it since it felt racist.

Then I was walking near Central Station and I saw a sign on a cafe in Dutch that read, "Dutch Only!" I was not welcome there only because I am not Dutch. I was stunned. You could NOT do that in the US. It would be illegal.

I don't pretend to understand Dutch culture - I'm but an admirer and a tourist and I'm starting to wonder if maybe the Dutch are not as tolerant as they think they are.

TO answer you directly, yes I do think that when a person moves to a country they should adapt to the extent that they can function in the new society. Here in NY we have Jewish men who are not allowed to touch women who are not their wives, yet they have to earn a living. Their solution? They open stores and wear gloves so there's no contact when they make change. THat's an acceptable adaptation for both parties, imo.

on edit: I hate that Theo was murdered. His film was brilliant. His rage was an amazing force of nature.

[Name removed]

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[Mizmoon]

6. Since you are more knowledgeable

how would you handle it? Deportations? Forced education about "Western Life"?

[elehhhhna]

7. This is how they are handling it, so far:

Considering deportations for Violence-provoking Imams, making law enforcement actually arrest people for "honor killings", and tightening up immigration rules, bigtime. (Must demonstrate familiarity with Dutch lang. & culture/law prior to coming in).

[Mizmoon]

9. The 'honor killing' thing

what were they doing before? Allowing honor killings? They can't have allowed them ... murder is murder no matter what the motive - right?

[elehhhhna]

13. There's evidence that there was a tendency to "look the other way"

in many cases. Didn't want to offend, you know...

[Mizmoon]

19. For shame

That was a terrible mistake. Whoever allowed that was not being tolerant, s/he was being an accomplice to murder.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

8. Unfortunately..

The Dutch aren't all windmills and girls in wooden shoes and braids and legal pot. I wish it were so, but I learned otherwise from doing family history. :(

[Mizmoon]

10. True enough

I just finished reading that John Adams biography. I'm not sure if the young USA would have survived without Dutch bankers. This was back when the French Ambassador wouldn't even see Adams unless a bribe was paid ...

(okay I'm just showing off what I read this weekend and it has little bearing on the topic :)

[elehhhhna]

5. "Cloggies"? Sheesh. The proper derogatory term for us is "Shoe".

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Don't the Dutch have laws agains Battery and Murder?

Instead of blaming the Morrocans, how about enforcing the laws?

[elehhhhna]

14. Yes, they have laws. Murder rates have exploded in the immigrant pop.,

though. Facts don't "Blame". They're facts.

[da_chimperor]

18. Jail sentences seem a bit on the light side as well.

How many years did Van Der Graaf get for murdering Fortuyn? 18 years?

[elehhhhna]

15. dupe

[elehhhhna]

16. dupe

[da_chimperor]

17. I completely agree.

I've lived over here for a couple of years now, and although I'm way in the north, I've been around long enough to get a fair perspective on the issue. It just seems that there is a section of immigrants, asylum seekers, etc. that don't have any desire to get along with dutch society. It's like some don't really want to be here, but they don't want to return to their native countries either, so instead they stay here and make little or no effort to adapt to their surroundings. Some sort of ground rules are needed. Basically: don't get in to trouble, get along with everyone else, and accept others for who they are.

[theboss]

20. Assimilation of Islam into the West may be the issue of the century

Waves of immigration have always put stress on societies. There's always been unemployment, racism, bigotry and crime.

But the immigration of Muslims into Western Europe and the US may be a unique situation. First of all, unlike Southern European, Eastern European, Latin immigration, there is no common religion among the immigrants and natives.

Secondly, a lot of Muslims are coming from totally fractured cultures. Other immigrants were not taught about the "evils of the West" from birth. They were not completely segregated from women. And they were not raised in cultures of nasty anti-Semitism and homophobia.

I think Europe and the US are going to have to address assimilation in some way soon. There are going to need to some sort of language requirement for a start and maybe some kind of "culture training."

This is really going to be tricky and it goes against a lot of tolerant, liberal viewpoints. But I don't know if it's just a question of letting one generation grow up in the West and letting assimilation take care of itself.

[DemExpat]

30. I agree.....

Until this growing problem with a group of Muslims not wanting to integrate into Western society it seemed like other ethnic groups did want to do this and succeeded fairly well.

My daughter's boyfriend is from Indonesian heritage (parents born in Indonesia) and is fully and positively integrated into Dutch society and culture. (While embracing much of his Indonesian as well).

Heck, I am an "allochtone" (Dutch label for foreign born) here as well, raised my children bi-culturally, too, but granted, being from the West, (born in Texas,Scottish heritage), progressive!, and non-religious, makes it easier for me to embrace the Dutch as my own.....:-)

I feel very somber over prospects of a growing Muslim "apartheid" here in Holland and Europe....

:-(

DemEx

edit for spelling...