Southerners, please explain the confederate flag loyalty to me

[Onlooker]

The swastika to the people of conscience represents genocide. In respect for the victims of Nazi-ism almost no one would use the swastika as a symbol for industry, discipline, pride, and other more positive aspects of Nazi-ism.

The confederate flag to most people of conscience represents slavery, which by many measures is as bad as the crimes of the Nazis. Yet, many white southerners seem to have no compunction about using this flag as a symbol of the more positive aspects of southern culture.

Are white southerners in denial about the crimes of the ancestors, or do they not care that the confederate flag is a hurtful and offensive symbol? Do they not hear the objections of those who ancestors were victims of slavery? Do they not care? I just don't get it.

[BeyondThePale]

1. stupidity.

[coolhandlulu]

123. "The South will rise again!"

Seems rather like a diversion from reality to most of us here, but there are many in the south who truly believe this in their hearts. That flag is a symbol of that belief to them. I suppose giving up that flag would be the same of giving up that belief and that is not something that they are prepared to do. Besides, it pissing off us northeners just probably tickles them pink.

[tx_dem41]

141. Wow, I've lived in the South all of my life, and I haven't met anyone ...

that's alive today, that I would classify as feeling that way. I guess you have a better perspective on the "pulse of the South" living up in Cleveland. :eyes:

[MessiahRp]

227. Yes,

there's not a single person alive today... even including African-Americans that find that flag repulsive. Yep, it's all in our heads.

Rp

[coolhandlulu]

257. its just an opinion...

based on what people born and raised in the south have commented to me. im glad to see that you do not hold those ideas, but others do. and it was just last year that someone voiced those ideas to me. and believe it or not, cleveland isnt all that different from the south. the appalacians just ends somewhere in ohio. many families from the south have relocated to this area to find better jobs and have brought their ideas with them.

[Blue_Roses]

228. hmmm....

Seems rather like a diversion from reality to most of us here, but there are many in the south who truly believe this in their hearts. That flag is a symbol of that belief to them. I suppose giving up that flag would be the same of giving up that belief and that is not something that they are prepared to do. Besides, it pissing off us northeners just probably tickles them pink.

you must have forgot your :sarcasm: tag 'cause your commment sounds like a broadbrush stroke of rascism against southerners. I've lived in the south all my life and I've NEVER come close to thinking, "wow, I feel like pissing off a northerner." Where do you people get this stuff:shrug:

[coolhandlulu]

256. well...

you must not have gotten good marks in comprehension nor taken deductive logic in college. unless you fly the confederate flag, this comment does not apply to you.

ETA: i really am not anti-south. my family is from the south and i enjoy visiting there. and i love some country music. my comments refer to that group of people that still live in the past.

[Lerkfish]

2. not a southerner, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say...

those reasons are not mutually exclusive. I think it's possible all or any combination of the following are true....

1. The really don't care.
2. They understand the implications and are secretly or not so secretly ok with the racist connotations.
3. They don't want to change tradition/history...even bad tradition/history
4. They don't want goddamn libruls telling them what to do in order to be "PC".
5. They think it looks wicked cool over the bed, with the bloody melted skull bedspread.
6. They WANT to offend.

[Benhurst]

12. And of course they make the point that "Old Glory" represented

a slave state for almost a hundred years. Should it have been banned with the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation or the 14th Amendment?

Of course the Rebel flag in question is the Confederate BATTLE flag, not the official flag of the Confederacy. The Bonny Blue Flag of the Confederacy so closely resembled the U.S. flag, the battle flag had to be used in combat to prevent confusion. The battle flag was quickly taken over as a symbol by the KKK and has been used by racist groups since that time.


I doubt if one American in a thousand would be able to identify the official flag of the old Confederacy.

[RPM]

36. symbols of rebellious insurgency

are generally frowned upon by governements.

The battleflag should have been banned after the war as a treasonous symbol.

[5thGenDemocrat]

47. Not quite, Benhurst

The Bonnie Blue Flag looked like this:
www.anyflag.com/history/bonnie.htm
It wouldn't be confused with the US flag -- but it wasn't the official battle flag, either.
John
It is now 11 days, 23 hours and 42 minutes to FUNDAY. We'll probably fly an American flag and a Canadian one, too.

[Benhurst]

59. You are right, 5thGenDemocrat. I didn't mean The Bonnie Blue

Flag, but the Stars and Bars, which was the official flag of the Confederacy throughout most of the war.

www.confederateflags.org/national/FOTCs_b.htm

[northzax]

152. see, there's the rub of the first amendment

we allow successionists to keep flying their flag, makes them easier to recognize.

[Igel]

65. Or it was at least one of the battle flags.

I think mostly we see the Naval Jack from the second half of the war, real similar to the land battle flag from the second half, but not identical (proportions were usually different).

The first battle flag apparently had the later battle flag in one corner of a large white area. Obviously not the wisest choice.

[Yupster]

76. Official flags of the CSA

There were actually three of them.

Here's a link that shows them all, plus also shows the "Bonnie Blue flag" which is another story altogether, and not one of the three official flags of the Confederacy.

The first flag is what is referred to as the "Stars and Bars" and was not liked on the battlefield because with no wind, and with no standard uniforms for each army, it looked too much like the US flag so the soldiers couldn't tell whether friend or foe was approaching them.

Genaral Beauregard, commander of the Army of Northern Virginia picked the "Starry Cross" or "Southern Cross" as his army's battle flag and it was hugely popular with the men and civilians.

Soon, the Starry Cross was put on the country's official flag which replaced the Stars and Bars.

A third official flag replaced that one toward the end of the war. Again it had the Starry Cross but a red strip on the right side.

The Bonnie Blue flag was never an official anything. It was used as part of the secession movement as the country was just forming, but never had any official Confederate government standing. It's just a light blue flag with a single white star.

Here are the pictures

http://americancivilwar.com/south/conflag/southflg.html

[Yupster]

87. One more reason

A good friend of mine was the General in charge of the Sons of Confederate Veterans organization for this part of the country.

Tragically he was killed just a few months ago in a car crash visiting his grandchildren who were the most important people in his life besides his wife.

This person was a very educated man with loads of life left in him when he died. He was very proud of his ancestors who fought in the Confederate army, and his relatives since then who have fought for the US in every war since.

His son was just back from Iraq about a year ago when he brought his kids to visit grandma and grandpa for a week. I invited the whole bunch of them out to the pool I belong to so the kids could have a day of swimming away from so many adults. They had a ball and I'm so glad I thought to do that.

Anyway this man was an amateur historian, and scholar. He spent his retired days raising money to take care of cemetaries, and other such pursuits.

Whenever I talked about his group, the thing he tossed his venom at the most was how the KKK took their flag and dishonored it. He told me that anywhere in his region that there was a KKK rally or event, he would make sure there would always be a bigger SCV presence to protest against them.

The point is that the flag means different things to different people. To the guy riding the Harley, it probably doesn't mean anything except "I'm a rebel," and the Civil War is furthest from his mind. To others it means slavery, to others, racism, to others pride that even though they lost, they still think they're right.

Anyway, that's what I know as a New Yorker now living in Texas.

[mnmod]

99. You left out

To them it does not mean racism.. I think there is a huge reason progressives are losers on this issue, we talk about tolerance, we talk about understanding, we talk about bridging the gap for the common good and than we call people racist hicks if they have a different view than us..

[Lerkfish]

116. they're not the ones to decide if its racist

as long as others consider it racist and are offended by it, it IS racist.

not sure you'll understand that distinction. For example, even if a boss might not consider asking his secretary to give him oral gratification or lose her job is sexual harrassment, as long as the secretary feels so and the law says so, it IS sexual harrassment, because SHE is the injured party, not the boss.

Its way too late for southerners to claim "ignorance" or lack of malice on this one. The issue has been blazoned all over the news and they KNOW it offends people and is considered racist. It doesn't matter if THEY don't agree, because THEY are not the injured party, you dig?

A bigot does not get to declare his racist actions non-racist. But, even for the sake of argument, if there was ONE southerner who was living under a rock for the last 20 years and had no clue of the racist connotations of the flag....ONCE IT WAS POINTED OUT TO HIM, and he wasn't a racist, he would be aware and understanding that others think so and cease pushing the issue.

sorry, pal, but I don't consider "us" progressives losers on this issue.

[mnmod]

135. You have to be kidding?

as long as others consider it racist and are offended by it, it IS racist.

I consider Lucky Charms, Notre Dame, and the St Patrick's day parade to be racist stereotypes of the Irish people, whats even worse is there are many blinded sons of Erin who don't see this racism, but now that I have in public made my feelings, and injury known I expect government action to remove these awful symbols from our society..

not sure you'll understand that distinction. For example, even if a boss might not consider asking his secretary to give him oral gratification or lose her job is sexual harassment, as long as the secretary feels so and the law says so, it IS sexual harassment, because SHE is the injured party, not the boss.

umm youre comparing someone with authority over someone else attempting to force oral sex on them to a piece of cloth that has no power over anyone? do I have that about right? that has to be the worst example I have ever seen..

Its way too late for southerners to claim "ignorance" or lack of malice on this one. The issue has been blazoned all over the news and they KNOW it offends people and is considered racist. It doesn't matter if THEY don't agree, because THEY are not the injured party, you dig?

how are they injured? because they are offended? do we really want to go down a line were anyone can force others to modify their lives because they might be offended by that? do you really think when the founder put the 1st in there is was not *SPECIFICALLY* for offensive speech?

A bigot does not get to declare his racist actions non-racist. But, even for the sake of argument, if there was ONE southerner who was living under a rock for the last 20 years and had no clue of the racist connotations of the flag....ONCE IT WAS POINTED OUT TO HIM, and he wasn't a racist, he would be aware and understanding that others think so and cease pushing the issue.

there you go again! you calling someone a bigot does not make it so! they have a right to disagree with you on what that flag means, and doing so does not make them a bigot!

sorry, pal, but I don't consider "us" progressives losers on this issue.

Umm what would have happened if Gore carried his home south state of Tennessee in 2k? how about say SC, and Ten going to Kerry in 2k4? Maybe when we stop calling people who may disagree with us over what a piece of cloth means we can talk to them about important progressive issues and perhaps with a southern EC vote or two.. who's living under a rock here?

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

221. " a piece of cloth with no power over anyone"

here's an experiment: take a red piece of cloth. Now, put a white circle on it., Now, put a swastika on that white circle. Now, parade it in a jewish neighborhood.

now, see if that cloth has no power over anyone.


or, lets do another experiment. Let's take the american flag, and take it to a nascar event. Between races, lets set fire to it. Let's see what happens.

now, see if that cloth has no power over anyone.

[forgethell]

217. And that's why the South

is once again "The Solid South", only for the Republicans.

[Lerkfish]

220. actually, those are reasons 1-3

1. They really don't care.
2. They understand the implications and are secretly or not so secretly ok with the racist connotations.
3. They don't want to change tradition/history...even bad tradition/history

[dhuss]

3. you know I would if I could...

But I can't bring myself down to that level of thought.

D.H.

[Mizmoon]

4. It should have been made illegal

after the Civil War, like the swastika is in Germany. Big Fucking Mistake.

[youngdem]

9. but the swastika is still displayed, by ignorant people.

Making something illegal is not going to solve the problem. As a woman living in the "deep" south, I too have wondered why people still display the flag, when I have asked it is told that the reason is because it is history.

Though these people puzzle me and cause frustration, it is still their right to be stupid and display their flag.

BTW; not everyone in the south is like this. Their are many wonderful people that reside here and would love for all of the "flag" waving "rednecks" to go away.

[GiovanniC]

19. I Totally Disagree

With the premise that such symbols should be made illegal. I do not like the path such censorship would lead us down.

Besides, if someone wants to wear a swastika or some other symbol of hate, that only serves to identify the idiots quicker, and that's a good thing.

I'd much rather deal with someone who wears his swastika on his sleeve so I can avoid him than deal with someone who wears his swastika on his heart secretly.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

177. So much...

for free speech....

[QC]

203. Darn that pesky First Amendment! n/t

[southernleftylady]

5. I'm from the south but i shouldn't be ;)

i cant stand living here so i asked my republican , country born and breed Mississippi hubby ;) and this is what he said..
"it represents the sins of the past" he said that he can see why people are offended by it and how those people still think that the south should be seperate...
then he went into the history of the flag and how that flag was just the battle flag and not the true confederate flag.. and then all i could here was "blah blah blah blah blah" lol
i didn't want the history of the civil war lol i just wanted to know what the rebel flag meant to him and i liked the way he summed it up i represents the sins of the past... (he doesn't have rebel flags ANYWHERE)

[tavalon]

6. The South changes very slowly

and while it isn't discussed very much these days people in the South think they were on the right side of that argument. Not everyone from the South believes that but there is a large swath.

Hence, they see the confederate flag as patriotic as related to the time when they had seceded.

[moose65]

7. No simple reasons, really

As a Southerner, I am subjected to images of that flag all the time. The appeal of it is certainly hard to explain. Your swastika comment is dead-on, though. Anyone who proudly displayed the swastika would be driven out of town. One would think the Rebel flag would provoke a similar reaction. But, we lie to ourselves about the Civil War and about the Southern cause, not just in the South, but all over the country. Seems like we've all bought into the myth of "Gone With the Wind" and we've superimposed our modern-day love for an underdog onto the Confederacy, like it was a sports team or something. A lot of Rebel flag wavers actually remind me of sports fans. It's a shallow, lets-have-a-good time mentality, with no regard for the deeper ideas associated with that flag. I also think a lot of it has to do with the modern use of the flag.... it was resurrected in the 60s in response to the civil rights movement. In fact, as far as I can tell, the flag had fallen into disuse until that time, when it was revived by Southern politicians (painfully, they were probably Democrats!) to protest those "activist judges" who were imposing desegregation.

[Dawgs]

26. BINGO!!! moose65 has got it.

Right here is the reason. Do not look any further.

It's all about Southern pride. Most of those that display it are hateful people, but to them it does not necessarily represent everything that we see as bad.

[johnaries]

34. Southern Pride, plain and simply.

Although I don't display the Confederate Battle Flag because I know that it offends many people - including some of my closest friends, to most people who do display it does not represent Slavery or anything else but Southern Pride. Yes, the South has it's flaws, but there are also many wonderful things about it and Southern have much to be proud of.

Also, most Southerners believe that the Civli War was fought over State's Rights, not Slavery.

[tx_dem41]

48. I'm from the South.....my family has lived in the South since the ...

1600s. I believe that the Civil War was fought over State's Rights...the State's Right to maintain the legality of slavery...as well as be free of federally imposed tariffs, etc.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

275. Not just that, really...

In a more innocuous sense, the Confederate Flag is a symbol of rebellion. Taking it out of its specific historical context, the flag represents a great big "fuck you" from a little guy against the powers that be and the willingness to fight to the death in a cause that was lost before the first shot was fired. Even as a northerner and the descendent of a Union infantryman, I can appreciate the mythological romance that some people can attach to this symbol.

That is, of course, the problem with symbols. People see and interpret them differently. Consider what happens when you wave a U.S. flag on a street corner in Des Moines, Iowa compared to the reaction you're likely to get in downtown Samarra. A symbol that represents one ideal to one person, could represent a diametrically oppsed ideal to another person.

[theHandpuppet]

58. Oh, I don't know...

I've seen WAYYYYY too many of those flags around here emblazoned with mottos such as "Jeff Davis was right!" to attribute such displays with any misguided but innocuous notions of "Southern pride". The most vile example I've seen recently was plastered to a bumper sticker on the back of a contractor's truck. When I first espied the words "I have a dream" and a pic of the Capitol Bulding on the sticker, I thought, "Cool!", believing it to be a reference to MLK. It was only when I drew closer that I saw that flying above the pic of the Capitol was the Confederate Battle Flag.

Anyone who displays the Stars and Bars and claims they are unaware of its racist connotations is either an idiot or a liar.

[MojoXN]

84. I agree...

My, ahem, "favorite" is a picture of the flag with , "Ni**er, you wear your X and I'll wear mine." Those assholes display the Confederate flag just to piss black people off. They have no sense of history, hell, I'd bet that not one could tell you any battles that the south won. For those who display the flag out of a sense of history, I'm sorry, but it's an overtly racist symbol from a dark and shameful chapter of our nation's history. It needs to go. But banning it? Absolutely not! If people want to make asses of themselves by sporting a relic of a bygone era, let them. Freedom of expression is more important than offended senseibilities, in my opinion.

MojoXN

[merh]

51. You hit the nail on the head, moose65!

And I welcome you to DU! :hi:

I believe the politicians that resurrected the flag during the days of segregation and the civil rights were Dixiecrats, they were not true Democrats.

And for those who believe that the KKK only rides with the confederate flag, please know that is not true. They ride with the American flag too. My mother told me of episodes from her childhood when her family was tormented and harassed by the KKK in Texas because they were "Catlickers" and of Polish descent. They would ride horses through their yards and throw things at their homes and fire weapons in the air, while my mothers family hide under the tables and out of sight. Mother was very disturbed that these white robbed evil folk carried the American flag, as if they owned it. The KKK didn't like anyone who wasn't a WASP. They were equal opportunity haters and still are to this day.

Again, I welcome you to DU! :hi:

[tnlefty]

8. I can't and I'm getting tired of seeing teenaged kids wearing

t-shirts with it and the statement, 'It's a southern thing'. I've seen more shirts, license plate covers, you name it popping up during the past 4-5 years or so. I don't consider it to be part of my heritage so I can't answer your question.

[Bridget Burke]

10. The Battle Flag became popular during the Civil Rights movement.

As a symbol of white resistance. I know some Southerners who insist the war was about States' Rights--not Slavery. But they are too well bred to fly that flag.

Cragg Hines, columnist for the Houston Post, wrote an excellent column a few years ago during a controversy about the flag of South Carolina, I believe. It's now lost in the archives, but I almost memorized it. He proclaimed that he was a 5th generation Texan & proud of his family. But he thought that slavery was a dreadful reason to break the Union & wished that Reconstruction had been more successful. Hines also pointed out that the Battle Flag's rise in popularity had more to do with fighting Civil Rights for blacks than "Southern pride."

Most of my ancestors were still in Ireland during the 1860's. No complex history there!

[BobbyinPortland]

16. I'm from the south-

I'm proud to be from the south, if you don't like it here, MOVE, and that's the most redneck thing I'll say.

I'm not attached to the Confederate flag. Hell, I'm not really even attached to the American flag other than seeing it as a representation of our country.

I think the people here in the south value their traditions and when you threaten those traditions you're stepping on some barefoot toes that can kick some ass. I don't fly the flag, I really have no desire to, but I do have a gay flag on my truck, yes I drive a truck and I'm not a lesbian (lol), and that flag can and does offend many people. I'm not going to remove it and fuck anyone that doesn't like it.

As far as people flying the Confederate flag, it's their choice and while it might hurt some people, we can't get to a place where we're telling people what they can and can't believe. That's what the stinking rethuglicans are doing now and none of us like that.

If you don't like the flag, buy one you do like and fly it, or make a bumper sticker that says how you feel but please stop trying to tell other people what to do and how to live. Yes, disagree all you want, but the name calling is such a repugnican response you should be ashamed.



Peace!

[Toots]

29. Actually the government can and should ban the Confederate flag

All Confederate Flags are a symbol of treason against the USA. To fly such is saying you celebrate and encourage that treason. Any government can and should protect itself from treason and insurrection. It isn't about slavery although that was the main reason for their treason but it is the treason itself that is so abhorrent. I wonder if the same people flying that flag love Jane Fonda.

[The_Mule]

30. Free speech - what a concept!

From BobbyinPortland:
If you don't like the flag, buy one you do like and fly it, or make a bumper sticker that says how you feel but please stop trying to tell other people what to do and how to live. Yes, disagree all you want, but the name calling is such a repugnican response you should be ashamed.

It's great to read something like that on DU. Look folks, free speech doesn't mean you live hearing just echoes from your own head. Free speech means you just might hear something that makes you mad, sad, or generally uncomfortable. Free speech means you might have to try to understand people with differing opinions. Free speech means you might learn something about others and yourself. Free speech does not mean censoring or outlawing certain subjects. Free speech means you can express yourself without fear of retribution from your government.

You've got to fight to protect that freedom, even if you're protecting someone expressing something you wouldn't. If you are too uncomfortable to protect that freedom, then perhaps you don't really believe in freedom of speech? Remember, always put yourself in other's shoes - would you want someone telling you that you can't fly a particlar flag (maybe one that says Bush is Wrong)?

An America that outlaws the flying of a flag is not an America that supports free speech. I will fight for an America that allows the flying of whatever freak flag Americans want to fly.

[BobbyinPortland]

32. hey The_Mule

AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!

That's exactly how I feel.

[forgethell]

35. Free speech

is not always popular among a significant percentage of the posters on DU.

But I can tell you my opinion of why some folks fly the Battle Flag. Right or wrong, it is part of their heritage, and they are proud of who they are. And I don't think they are concerned about offending anybody who would try to make them ashamed of it. I don't, on the other hand, think most of them intend to offend, they just have a sublime indifference to it.

[fishwax]

93. And free speech means you can say the confederate battle flag is stupid

:shrug:

Most posters on this thread haven't called for making the flag illegal.

[The_Mule]

125. Now where did you get the idea

that I said most posters on this thread haven't called for making the flag illegal? I was expressing my agreement with a statement that BobbyinPortland made.

But, now that you brought it up, let's take a look at this thread:

RPM - post 36: "The battleflag should have been banned after the war as a treasonous symbol."

Mizmoon - post 4: "It should have been made illegal after the Civil War, like the swastika is in Germany."

Toots - post 29: "Actually the government can and should ban the Confederate flag"

Gordianot - post 14: "Other than Civil War reenactors and perhaps use in a historical context (such as cemeteries and to mark historic locations) the confederate flag should not be flown."

Lex - post 42: "The Confederate Flag is a hostile flag to the United States of America and I can't understand why a flag hostile to the United State of America is allowed to be flown over state houses, etc."

truebrit71 - post 61: "As the losing side in a civil war, I am not sure why it is still allowed....by the victors."

Lex - post 86: "The Confederate flag is a captured flag of the USA and is a flag defeated by the USA in a war. It shouldn't be allowed to fly in any gov't building that belongs to the USA."

Now, you are correct, these remarks did not come from *most* posters, but they are present in this thread. BobbyinPortland posted disagreement with these comments, and I posted agreement with BobbyinPortland.

I don't believe it takes much reading between the lines of my post to see that I completely support the free speech right to call the confederate battle flag stupid.

[fishwax]

148. Gee, I didn't say you said most posters

I didn't put words in your mouth or attribute ideas to you. I simply stated the fact that most posters aren't calling for it.

So now you've quoted some posts which call for it to be illegal, thus proving that there are calls for it to be banned in this thread, which, of course, was never in doubt. (As an aside, I should note that you've inflated your evidence by citing posts which don't call for it to be made illegal, specifically the two posts from Lex.)

BobbyinPortland didn't really post disagreement with these comments, considering only one such comment had been made when he posted (and not, incidentally, by either the OP or by the poster that BiP responded too).

You agreed with BiP, but it rather sounded like a lecture to the thread as a whole, which consisted almost exclusively of people saying the confederate battle flag was stupid, not that it should be banned: <<It's great to read something like that on DU. Look folks, free speech doesn't mean you live hearing just echoes from your own head.>>

(edited to correct BobbyinPortland's username)

[BobbyinPortland]

149. and again I agree

I don't like the flag particularly myself, but I don't tell people how to live their lives. As long as they ain't raping or abusing people or animals they can pretty much do what they want to do.

I like to mind my own business and for others to do the same.

If only they would do the same.

[fishwax]

155. Who here is telling people how to live their lives?

Other than you? ("if you don't like it here, MOVE")

<<I like to mind my own business and for others to do the same.

If only they would do the same.>>

Who is the "they"? Who is not minding their own business?

[BobbyinPortland]

222. first of all republicans don't mind their own business

and anyone here on DU that even tries to tell others what flag to wave and how often to wave it are telling people how to live and what to believe.

I love the discussions here and I'm a screaming liberal about a lot of things, (I'm conservative when it comes to children and family stuff) but probably the most liberal person on this site.

I just hate hypocrites and those of you on here that bitch and complain about the republicans running everyone's lives then turn around and do the same thing are no better than those you bitch about.

Wake up. If you don't like someone flying the Confederate flag it's your problem, not theirs. To take that away from them is equal to telling gays they can't marry, telling women they have no choice, and telling America live the way we command or leave!

[fishwax]

230. If you don't like someone bitching about the Conf flag, it's your problem

not theirs. But you "hate hypocrites and those of you on here that bitch and complain about the republicans running everyone's lives" etc. In your original post you said they should by a bumper sticker to state their views, but apparently when they post their thoughts on a discussion board it's a little too much for you.

Kind of like how in your original post on this topic you decried the "repugnican" tactic of name calling.

[BobbyinPortland]

250. this is a DISCUSSIN board not a bumper sticker

If I want to DISCUSS the Confederate flag and the right to wave it it's part of the game played here.

I have two bumper stickers I made myself:

WWJD
He'd be a liberal


AND

Hug and tree, not a Bush


No one ever really says anything about them because they are not posted on a message board or reader's forum, (well, until now)

Do you know the difference?

[fishwax]

251. Yeah, I know the difference. And both are appropriate places

for people to state opinions. Which is what people are doing here. Which has resulted in you decrying "hypocrites and those of you on here that bitch and complain about the republicans running everyone's lives then turn around and do the same thing are no better than those you bitch about."

<If I want to DISCUSS the Confederate flag and the right to wave it it's part of the game played here.>

Right. And if others want to discuss the stupidity of the confederate flag and how stupid it is to wave it, that's part of the game played here.

In your post 16 you said:
<If you don't like the flag, buy one you do like and fly it, or make a bumper sticker that says how you feel but please stop trying to tell other people what to do and how to live. >

Instead of buying a bumper sticker, they've spouted off on a message board. And you've reacted rather heatedly, calling out hypocrites and saying people are trying to run everybody's lives.

[BobbyinPortland]

268. hypocrites

I'm simply calling them like I see them. If you bitch and moan about how republicans treat other people then turn around and do the same thing, YOU are a hypocrite. If you do not do that then you are not a hypocrite.

Don't become the beast you're trying to destroy.

[fishwax]

274. Thanks for the advice. I suggest you take it.

:)

[Bridget Burke]

62. When did I say nobody had the right to fly the Battle Flag?

If they believe in what it stands for--especially what it came to stand for after the Civil Rights movement--by all means, let them advertise it. As a member of the ACLU, I even support the rights of neo-Nazis to march.

And your tough talk does not exactly frighten me. I've lived in the South most of my life. Not just the South--but Texas.

[fishwax]

94. "name calling is such a repugnican response"

uh, yeah ...

[EFerrari]

37. States' Rights, like Law and Order, Tough Judges, is racist code

in this context. These same people are too well bred to admit that.

[MemphisTiger]

11. Symbol for losers

let's face it they lost, why would they be proud of that?

[donsu]

50. that's what I was wondering - proud of slavery?

I'd think they would be embarrassed.

but racists are racists are racists.

[jojogunn]

13. the flag's popularity is spreading

I live in florida, so I am used to seeing the ConFlag. I was recently surprised, however, on a trip home to Indiana, when I discovered that many Hoosiers now sport the flag. I can't really understand why a bunch of northerners would want to be associated with such a symbol. I mean, just miles away the underground railroad used to carry slaves to freedom. Everything is upside down anymore. It must be something put into the Red State's water supply.

[The Magistrate]

17. Unfortunately, Sir

Indiana showed considerable Copperhead sympathy during the war, not so so much as Ohio. Indiana was a Ku Klux Klan stronghold early in the twentieth century.

One of the dirty little secrets of Abolition feeling at the time was that it was sometimes an expression of mere desire to exclude Negroes: no slavery, no Negro....

[Cats Against Frist]

215. I used to live in SEATTLE

and the people across the street from me had monster trucks that ALL sported the stars 'n bars. I thought I'd left that behind -- no such luck.

[MessiahRp]

226. Yeah some kids took sidewalk chalk

and drew one on the sidewalk just up the street from my apartment and declared "The South Rules!" on it. Not that I care about the North/South politics as much as many southerners do but I wanted to douse the flag with water. As I stated earlier in this thread that flag represents racism to me. I kick myself for even enjoying Dukes of Hazzard as a child because of this.

Rp

[gordianot]

14. You're right many use it as a statement of racial bigotry.

It was not entirely originally a symbol of genocide but has come to represent those sentiments with some and everyone knows who they are. There were African Americans (very few) who voluntarily and without coercion fought worked and supported the South. There were also African American's who owned slaves. For the vast majority of African Americans the Confederacy represented continued bondage and misery.

I have no problem with Confederate flags flying over Confederate battlefield or Confederate Veteran cemeteries (but should not be flown with the American or State Flag). Other than Civil War reenactors and perhaps use in a historical context (such as cemeteries and to mark historic locations) the confederate flag should not be flown.

Prediction this whole debate will heat up when they release the new "Dukes of Hazard" movie. For those of us who study this sad chapter in history such use of the Confederate Flag is a disaster.

[Tomee450]

75. Please don't try to

spread that nonsense about blacks not being coerced into fighting for the confederacy. Those who did, did so because they had been promised their freedom if they joined. Slaves by the thousands fled from the Confederacy when the union troops came through. In fact they almost overwhelmed the union forces. Black slaves did not support the Confederacy and I totally reject all of this revisionist history which seems to be so prevalent today. As for as blacks owning slaves, yes a very few did own slaves but most black slave owners purchased their relatives and friends. Slavery was evil and it's appalling that white southerners still want to honor a heritage that included the enslavement of millions of fellow human beings. That flag is an offensive symbol to black Americans and it is totally selfish and racist for people to display something that causes such pain to millions of people. Many white southerners have the same mentality of their ancestors. Black people don't count. I have no doubt that those people displaying that heinous flag and even their supporters would not object if the clock was turned back to the Jim Crow era where blacks had no rights at all.

[gordianot]

212. Blacks who did fight for the Confederacy were coerced.

There was a very very small number who were not coerced. I am not in favor of flying the Confederate flag anywhere outside a historical context. Most whites who fought for the Confederacy never owned a slave, and were to a degree victims of a wrong cause as those who were in bondage. The people who put the confederate flags on their trucks are not harmless. However banning the Confederate flag completely will not end bigotry and will probably foster resentment.

Because the Confederate Flag is offensive to many African Americans, public displays of this flag needs to be done so with sensitivity.

Make no mistake I am not a bigot, I do not condone in any form what is popularly identified as "Rebel Pride". In the 70's I attended a historical African American University and came close to a major in African American studies. There was not much market for this major in my case, but I had and continue to have a lifelong interest in American History.

I have spent many hours in dusty moldy archives, there are many surprises waiting for those who undertake these tasks. There is enough there to hold the interest of many generations. The one thing I have learned is there are many surprises waiting for those who are willing to take the time and effort to look for them.

Peace

[Yupster]

214. Here's the best book I've read on the topic

The subject is fascinating, but this is a very scholarly (dry) work. It's still the best book I've found on the subject though this professor limited his study to African-Americans in Virginia only.

Like you'd expect, it's a pretty complicated story with different people behaving very diffeently from each other. There are also great differences between the slaves, and the African-Americans who were free before the war.

Pick it up in your local library if you're interested in the subject.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0813915457/qid=1118118673/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-9131461-1495306?v=glance&s=books

PS - I was also surprised to find out a few years ago that there are a good number of African-Americans in the Sons of Confederate Veterans organization, some in leadership roles.

[BobbyinPortland]

224. I think that's over reaching a little

As I said about the flag, I don't like it, I don't fly it and I would never own one, but I'm not going to tell someone what they can and can't do in a "free country".

If someone is racist it's horrible but really, what is there that can be done about it? Nothing. The more you do to threaten their ways the more reason they have to be racist, at least in their bigoted minds.
Anything that is taken away from them to make the people they hate "feel better" is just another excuse for them to run out and bash the hell out of who ever their hate is aimed at.

Is the Confederate flag offensive? Yes, it is. However, so is the American flag right now. I'm offended at how the American flag is being used to fight wars that are based on false reasons and old vendettas. I'm offended by overtly Christian ads that tell me that I'm going to hell if I don't believe exactly the way the Bible tells me to believe. Lots of things offend me, but I'm not going to start a petition to get rid of them, I'm just going to be who I am, believe the way I want and if someone doesn't like it, FUCK THEM!

[Tomee450]

236. What are you talking about?

Every day in this country, people are told what they cannot do in this free country. During the Jim Crow era, life for black people was nothing but you cannot do this or that; you cannot live in that community, you cannot sit at the front of the bus, you cannot look a white man in the eye, you cannot stand on the sidewalk as a white man walked by, you cannot vote, use the library, visit parks etc. It was supposedly a free country then, but blacks were denied the opportunities available to whites in this "free country." By your logic, the civil rights era should not have occurred, after all this is a free country and people can do what they wish, even discriminate. Perhaps Martin Luther King and other activists should have just kept quiet about racism in this country? If certain people are resentful because they are criticized for flying the Confederate flag, I say now you know how blacks for several centuries have felt.

Just because someone has the right to do something doesn't mean they should do it. Why would a decent person want to hurt others just to display a flag? To me, a black person, that flag represents a Confederation formed to continue slavery, an evil institution.

Your post reflect an attitude that is supportive only of the feelings of the majority population and indifference to the concerns of those who are not white. Why is it always about the majority population? Where is the empathy for the minorities? You suggest that that horrible flag will cause more resentment. What about the resentment of the blacks who hate seeing it. Should their feelings just be ignored? Blacks are offended all the time but we just live with it. But of course you, like others, are dismissive of the concerns of the minorities.

Yes there are a lot of things to be upset about in this country today including the war in Iraq. However, you cannot equate the flying of the American flag today to the Confederate flag, a flag that is a symbol of the Confederacy, formed to protect the right of southerners to continue to buy and sell human beings and to extend slavery to other parts of the nation.

Slavery and the Holocaust were crimes against humanity. Would you support the flying of the Nazi flag knowing what it represents? Would you still say that people should be allowed to fly that flag because this is a free country? I would hope that most people would abhor both the Confederate and Nazi flags, both representing evil, and not want them displayed publicly.

[BobbyinPortland]

249. dude, I'm gay, I know discrimination

Trust me, I've seen my fair share of it and not for the color of my skin but for who I love.

I'm not saying that anyone should be racist or that I approve of any sort of bigotry, but I am saying there's not much you can do to change a racist's mind.


As I stated I'm offended by things everyday. The fact that if I want to hold my partner's hand (we've been together 12 years) in public we'd probably get beaten up or the least yelled and cussed at.

I love all people and by me not tolerating racism from anyone around me I set an example. Do you do that when white's are bashed in your presence?

My point is telling someone what flag to wave is one step more towards total government control.

I don't wish anyone harm, that means ANYONE!!

[Tomee450]

253. I must reject your point of view.

If people are never challenged over their wrongdoings, what incentive is there for them to change? I think it would be a good idea if you read Martin Luther King's LETTER FROM A BIRMINGHAM JAIL. I wouldn't want to do something that I knew hurt millions of people. That would be selfish. The only reason why that flag is being flown is to insult African Americans.

As to your question about the bashing of whites in my presence, the only bashing people of my acquaintance do is when they are angry over blatant acts of racism and they don't condemn the entire white race.

[BobbyinPortland]

270. as I said

I'm not a bigot and don't condone any kind of bigotry or racism. I would love it if people's minds could be changed and am all for it, BUT reality is that most are set in their ways and don't care what you say or do.


Hate is deeply instilled emotion and something like that, that's learned and usually hammered into young minds is hard to alter.

I really don't think that everyone that flies the Confederate flag is doing it for racism, I think they're just ignorant of what the flag represents and most southerners would tell you that it's about being proud of being from the south, but again I'm proud to be from the south but that flag will never be a part of my life.

[bunkerbuster1]

15. In order of importance

1. The flag annoys and/or offends many people.

2. The flag makes the brandisher feel like a "rebel."

That's about 90% of the appeal. But what do I know--I'm just a white Yankee transplant who's lived in the South a few years.

to answer your question: no, the white southerners are not in denial about the crimes of their ancesters. They know full well that their great-grandpappies were benefiting from a system of evil. They just rationalize it all by saying that other people did bad stuff too. (y'know, there were blacks trading slaves in Africa, some Northerners benefited from slavery, yadda yadda.)

And then they'll tell you that the American Civil War "wasn't about slavery." they just love saying that.

Because technically, it's true. Northerners didn't fight the South to free the slaves. But to imagine that the ACW somehow would've happened anyway without the 800 pound slavery gorilla hanging around in the room is pure fantasy.

[DelawareValleyDem]

18. I wonder more about

why I see Confederate flags in Pennsylvania and NJ

[ultraist]

66. PA had more KKK rallies in the 90's than did Alabama

According to FBI stats posted on Tolerance.org.

The rebel flag is code for white supremacy. LOTS of rednecks and racists in PA, Indiana, Kansas, Oklahoma, and western states.

CA is a hotspot for hate groups.

Racism is not confined to just the South.

[QC]

205. Yep, I saw rebel flags all over the place when I lived in Pennsylvania.

But we probably shouldn't talk about that--might challenge some people's comforting delusions.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

20. it's a symbol obviously and symbols have different interpretations

it all comes down to the simple fact that most rebel flag wavers simply don't view it the same way that you do. i am sure many are quite comfortable with the "bad" that it symbolizes and they sport it for that reason. However, others see the "good" in it and sport it for their "good reasons" ie. they believe they are showing appreciation and support of those that were before them, their relatives, they're people, their heritage (so the saying goes, "it's heritage not hate). to them it represents pride in what they are. you can laugh and be disgusted by the fact that people want to celebrate a heritage that tends to fall on the wrong side of history, but that is where they come from and that is what they feel a part of. they use it to pay homage to those that died fighting for "their" side and as a testament to the cultural aspects of their community that they feel is good and should be remembered.

i have no idea where the split lies as far as the perception of the flag goes.

it kind of comes down to this, the flag is seen as a symbol of their families and of themselves and their struggles before it is seen by them as a symbol of hatred or bigotry. it is my opinion the more you try to take it away from them and tell them it is bad the more staunch some are going to be about displaying it.

of course i agree that that flag's mainstream interpretation is that of bigotry, oppression and hatred, but these people who fly it in good faith do not associate these things with the flag. they see it as "good" while most see it as "bad".

it's a symbol and there for has different interpretations. i wish it would go away, but i don't think that is happening anytime soon.

maybe a not so good analogy is drawn between confederate flag wavers and scientologist: the members of these groups view their beliefs as good and really believe that, the outsiders view their beliefs as whacked out and crazy. they have no malice in their beliefs, they just believe something that seems a little of base to most of us.

fyi, i was born, raised and continue to live in the south, no i am not justifying the display of this flag, i just wanted to try and explain why some my cling to it despite the obvious dubious perceptions most people have of it.

[jbond56]

21. its roots are in ignorance

I went to High School in Tyler, TX. Tyler is a town divided by race. The North is mostly Black and South is almost completely white. I attended Robert E Lee High School home of the red raiders. It used to be the red rebels. Although it was changed at least a decade earlier most were still pissed they had to be called the red raiders. This gives a clue to how inbred the idea is. My senior year a large group of seniors decided the were going to raise the rebel flag on the schools central flag pole. It was very juvenile. The funniest part had to do with the fliers they handed out promoting the event. The rebel flag on the flier was grossly inaccurate. One diagonal had 7 stars and the other had 5 stars. This demonstrates the other key aspect. Ignorance. The day of the event was kind of tense. The local media was there and it even made national news. The morons trotted out to the flag pole to raise the rebel flag but did not realize the rope was removed the night before. It was hilarious watching them looking around like fools.

So its rooted in hate, ignorance, and tradition.

[AspenRose]

168. San Antonio Robert E. Lee

They changed their mascot to the Volunteers from the Rebels.

[randr]

22. I grew up on the Mason/Dixon line in the fifties and the Stars and Bars

was a symbol displayed by very bigoted people and mostly by greasers that also displayed the message "Born to Lose". I remember seeing numerous tattoos with this message. Also the confederate flag with "Born to Lose" written across it. I always saw this a some sort of subliminal unconscious message these people grew up with that made them identify with lost causes. However I think now a new generation sees it as a symbol of resistance to a world changing out of their control.

[tenshi816]

23. I'm a Southerner

from Georgia, although I've been away from the south for two decades.

I've wondered about this issue myself over the years, and my conclusion is that the answer lies in two things: on one end of the extreme, complete apathy or ignorance about the Confederate flag and what it represents, and at the other end of the extreme - racist rednecks who take great pride in flying the Confederate flag precisely because of what it represents.

I also believe there are some people who have seen the Confederate flag so much in their lifetimes that they don't even notice it or believe it means anything anymore. They're wrong, of course, and ignorance is no excuse, but I do feel there's an element of this.

This is just my opinion, though, and probably isn't very helpful in answering your questions because I guess I've just sort of repeated them back to you. I wish I understood it all too.

When I was a little girl, I was told (can't remember by whom, but it was an adult) that the Confederate flag was the same as the Georgia state flag, and that that was why there were so many of them around. Utter bullshit, but I'm embarrassed to say that I believed it for years because I was so young when it was told to me and it never occurred to me that a grown-up would tell me something that wasn't true (yes, I was a very naive child, and yes, I felt like a fool when I realized I had been lied to).

I live in England now and, worryingly, I have on occasion seen the Confederate flag displayed in the back window of lorries (18-wheelers) on the motorway. It's a startling thing to see over here and I have to wonder what's going on in the mind of anyone who would do that.

[lynne]

165. It is rather odd -

- but I understand that there is quite a bit of interest in the American Civil War in the U.K. They even have reenactment groups and such. That may be why you've seen the CSA flag there.

[Sparkle]

24. You should ask that on freerepubic.

But your guess is as good as mine. And I'm from the south.

[gray matter]

25. Just in the South?

You are entitled to your views, however, be careful not to relegate all crimes against black Americans to a particular region of the country.

http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/local.cfm?ArticleID=947
http://www.fox19.com/Global/story.asp?S=3416621
http://www.techworld.com/applications/news/index.cfm?NewsID=3709&Page=1&pagePos=4
http://www.fox23news.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=DCEE4BFD-5A42-4831-8A0C-767C31793A39
http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5421705.html
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050527/NEWS08/505270385
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0605lawsuit05.html
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050518/BIZ/505180344/1001
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=33439
http://www.capegazette.com/storiescurrent/0605/millertrial060305.html
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/local/story.asp?ID=73180
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/06/06/community_rallies_to_teens_defense
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=536
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/northwest/chi-0506030250jun03,1,6600767.story?coll=chi-newslocalnorthwest-hed

These links were taken from a google on racial discrimination. The list goes on and on.
Try it yourself, and you might be surprised how few show up as having occurred in “the south”.


My very first visit(mid to late 80’s) to the “Big Apple” coincided with an incident involving the death of a young black man who was chased into the traffic of a busy expressway by a group of “enlightened” New Yorkers simply because he and a group of his friends had wondered into a white neighborhood.

[tishaLA]

31. Apparently you missed the part about the Confederate Flag

and the question about why it is important, esp. insofar as it symbolizes the enslavement of African Americans. The OP never says anything about racism or a racist corporate infrastructure being relegated to a region of the country.

[gray matter]

33. No, I didn't....

but, all the rest of this shit has been said here a million times before.

Just thought I'd point out something that people from places other than the South choose to ignore. (or is it just ignorance?)

[tishaLA]

39. Who ignores it?

I think DU critiques racism often and that we know it doesn't only happen in the South. But the OP talked about the confederate flag and about history and asked for an explanation of the flag. You chose to ignore that and talk about something else entirely.

[gray matter]

56. OK, the flag then.

Did you know that out of the 224 years that slavery was legal in this country, only four of those years did the Confederate battle flag fly! And by the way, there were slaves in this country in 1620. What flag flew over the country more than any other flag during those 224 years? It was the Stars and Stripes.

It wasn't the Confederate battle flag. It was the Stars and Stripes! Why hate and attack the Confederate flag. I mean if you want to hate a flag of slavery then you ought to hate the Stars and Stripes!

And if you want to hate another flag of slavery, why not hate the British flag? Did you know that England was responsible for taking five million blacks from Africa and selling them to every country under the sun.

If you want to hate a flag, why not hate the Dutch flag or the Portuguese flag, or the Spanish flag? They sold slaves.

And if you want to hate a flag today, how about hating the Muslim flags because even today the Muslims are still involved in slavery! I mean let's be honest.

[kwassa]

79. The obvious reason to hate the Confederate flag more than others is ...

1) It is the one used by racist mobs of whites such as the Ku Klux Klan to terrorize and murder African-Americans. It thereby has become the symbol of racism just because of this.

2) It represents the Confederacy, whose sole purpose in attacking the Northern states, and seceding from the Union, was to preserve the right to hold slaves. By representing the Confederacy, it represents slavery in the United States.

3) While is it true that the other countries heavily involved in slavery flew such flags over their slaves, the sole purpose of these countries coming to being was not slavery, therefore their flag does not convey that meaning in and of itself.

[Zenlitened]

88. I don't hate the confederate flag. I hate the assholes who fly it...

... in the year 2005, dredging up an old symbol in order to make a proud display of their own ignorance and stupidity. Pretty simple.

[Tomee450]

97. I am African American and

I'll tell you why that heinous flag should be hated by everyone. It represented the Confederacy which was formed because southern states wanted to continue the enslavement of my ancestors. Take a look at the articles of Secession. Most mentioned slavery as being the reason for leaving the union. When I think of the Confederacy, I think of states with their slaves markets, their auction blocks, of black bodies being stripped and handled like beasts, of parents seeing their children sold off, of black women being raped. I think of blacks being fed poor food, given poor clothing, barred from getting an education, barred from even getting married. I think of the great unease many slaves felt as Christmas approached since in many localities that is when slaves were sold as their masters settled their accounts. The Confederacy was formed to preserve evil and the flag used as its symbol reminds many African Americans and others of that evil. People who continue to support that flag are callous,selfish and racist.

[slaveplanet]

144. not quite

before 1776 it was a British responsibility...

What flag flew over the country more than any other flag during those 224 years? It was the Stars and Stripes.

wrong- this flag flew prior to 1777


The Grand union flag-no stars

and do you know we have 2 flags?

The Stars and Stripes originated as a result of a resolution adopted by the Marine Committee of the Second Continental Congress at Philadelphia on June 14, 1777, for use on military installations, on ships, and in battle, directing that a U.S. flag consist of 13 stripes, alternating red and white; that a union be 13 stars, white in a blue field, representing a new Constellation.

Prior to, during the War for Independence, and after under the Articles of Confederation, smuggling was seen as a patriotic duty of the citizens of the thirteen independent and sovereign states, but after the ratification of the Constitution and the establishment of a new nation, smuggling needed to be stopped. The new nation depended on the revenue from customs tariffs, duties and taxes on imported goods in order to survive.

In 1790, with the customs laws firmly in place, Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton set to work devising adequate means of enforcing the year-old regulations. "A few armed vessels, judiciously stationed at the entrances of our ports," Hamilton suggested, "might at a small expense be made useful sentinels of our laws." Congress concurred, and that year appropriated $10,000 to build and maintain a fleet of ten revenue cutters, which were to be placed under the charge of the customs collectors, whose responsibilities would be enforcement of the tariff laws. Along with financial responsibility, Hamilton demanded that the officers be servants of the people. "They will always keep in mind that their Countrymen are Freemen and as such are impatient of everything that bears that least mark of a domineering Spirit."-snip

snip- History book publishers contribute to the public's miseducation by always picturing the flag in military settings, creating the impression that the one with horizontal stripes is the only one there is. They don't actually lie; they just tell half the truth. For example, the "first American flag" they show Betsy Ross sewing at George Washington's request, was for the Revolution - of course it was military.

The U.S. government has refrained from and discouraged flying the civil flag since the War between the States, the Civil War, as that war is still going on. Peace has never been declared, nor have hostilities against the people ended. The government is still operating under quasi-military martial rule.

I believe It's this little bit here is why many in South still like their confederate battle flag. At least that's what some imply-SP

Today the U.S. military flag appears alongside, or in place of, the state flags in nearly all locations within the states. All of the state courts and even the municipal ones now openly display it. This should have raised serious questions from many citizens long ago, but we've been educated to listen and believe what we are told, not to ask questions, or think or search for the truth.
http://www.outlawslegal.com/organic/flag.htm

disclaimer-The views on this site are not necessarily those of my own, but I do feel the premise it displays relates to this discussion-SP

the Flag of peace


- the civil flag



Many people have been concerned about Gold Fringes or Bordering on Flags, especially the Gold Fringe which has appeared on the United States Flag in our Court Rooms and Public Buildings. That Fringe indeed carries a special significance of Jurisdiction and Venue, that of Admiralty Law.




The president as military commander can add a yellow fringe to our flag. When would this be done? During a time of war. Why? A flag with a fringe is an ensign, a military flag. Read the following.

"Pursuant to U.S.C. Chapter 1, 2, and 3; Executive Order No. 10834, August 21, 1959, 24 F.R. 6865, a military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a YELLOW FRINGE, bordered on three sides. The President of the United states designates this deviation from the regular flag, by executive order, and in his capacity as COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF of the Armed forces."

Such is not the case with the Gold Fringe or Bordering which appears on some of the Official State Flags of the several States of the Union. Some of the state statutes permit a fringe which is solely "a decoration", in others it is a detail of the design of the flag.

And if you want to hate another flag of slavery, why not hate the British flag?

and I do hate the British flag and all it stands for.....

[ultraist]

69. The OP stated, "are white southerners..."

[tishaLA]

72. Yes. viz. the flag

not that racism is limited to the American south.

[Tomee450]

78. There is racism

throughout this country but in my opinion it is worse in the south. I have lived in southern and northern states. Despite the racism that exists in the north, I would be far more afraid to travel the back roads of Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi than those of Massachusetts, Main or Vermont. Many white southerners still are very, very racist. They have separate proms for blacks and whites. In Maryland, the alumni of one school did not invite the black alumni to their anniversary celebration. Many whites in the south send their children to private academies in an attempt to keep them separated from African Americans. Many white southerners just don't respect the black man. I saw a program on Court TV in which the white attorney when questioning, referred to the white witnesses as Mr. or Mrs. so and so, but called the black witness by his first name. No respect there. Even some of the usual biased pundits were appalled. In Tulia, Texas biased juries sentenced a large segment of the black population to long terms in prison on bogus charges. Even though the charge were later proven to be false, many in that town still won't admit that what they did was wrong. They still persist in saying that the defendants were guilty. The south went Republican for only reason;millions of white southerners think that the Republican party supports their racist views. The south is still a deeply racist section of this country and the fact that there is widespread support for the flying of the Confederate flag is proof of that racism.

[ultraist]

92. I respect your opinion

But I'm not so sure that racism is worse, in general, in the South, any longer.

It really depends on how you quantify it. For instance, if you compare stats on the disparities between Blacks and whites in education, income, healthcare and other indicators, it is not worse in the South. I've looked at these stats and was surprised.

If you look at the number of hate crimes, it is worse in the North and the West. (FBI stats)

If you quantify blatant remarks, it's worse in the South.

If you consider the fact that Southern states have a much higher percentage of Blacks than do Northern states and that in many ways, there is more intergration in the South, racism is worse in the North. For example, SC has an interracial marriage rate that is FOUR TIMES higher than the national average. The North has MORE private schools for middle class and rich white kids than does than South. Nearly 95% of white kids attend public schools in the South.

Racism manifests differently in the South. There are cultural differences but how would you really determine what region of the country is worse?

[Jane Eyre]

267. I'm a Southerner who spent 10 years in the Northeast, and I agree with you

I was actually quite surprised to find that whites and blacks often lived in completely different cities in some Northern states. It also seemed very foreign to me that there were so few blacks in so many areas where I lived such as upstate New York and the Lehigh Valley area of Pennsylvania. I also lived in Boston for about 3 years, and knew less than a dozen African Americans while there. As a district manager for a major national financial company, I actively tried to recruit minorities with very little success.

On any given day, I can walk down the street here in Charlotte and see black and white people socializing together. There are excellent neighborhoods here which are either inter-racial or predominantly African American. There was a 60 Minutes piece recently about an exclusive upper-class African American neighborhood in Atlanta, and the non-Southern interviewer seemed surprised that African Americans could be so affluent and successful in such a Southern city. Northern cities seemed to be much more divided by race and class, with ethnic minorities living in poorer neighborhoods.

That said, I do believe that the real divide in Southern states is between urban and non-urban areas. You simply don't see confederate flags in the city (unless there is a NASCAR race), but you will see the occasional Stars & Bars flying in the rural outlying areas. For lower class white folks, it is a symbol of defiance when you don't have much else going for you.

[CRK7376]

27. Don't lump all Southerners

into Confederate flag lovers....I'm a native southerner and despise what the flag waving crowd does with the Stars and Bars....

[tx_dem41]

28. I'm from the South (Louisiana, Texas, and family from Mississippi)....

....I really don't see that much "loyalty" to the Confederate flag at all within the circle of friends/acquaintances I travel in. From what I can see, what "loyalty" there is derives somewhat from economic and/or educational "class" AND there is a long-standing tradition down here of not liking it when "outsiders" do two things: Stereotype the South by lumping everyone together, and telling "us" what is best for "us".

The solution (and hint..its working) is for people within the region to stress why its not an appropriate symbol for today's (and heck.."yesterday's" society). That is done through education.

[Devlzown]

40. You're right.

I live in Mississippi and none of the people I hang out with display rebel flags. It does seem to be a class issue. If I see a Confederate flag, it's usually on some working class guy's beat up pickup truck. I don't think it's primarily meant as a racist symbol either. It's a protest, like a raised middle finger to the rest of the world which says I'm a poor redneck and I don't give a fuck what you like or what you think about me. It's obnoxious but it's not necessarily racist.

[Merope215]

167. That's been my experience too

in Georgia. There were a couple of kids at my high school who used to fly them off the back of their pickups, but no one I talked to ever did. People who are well bred and educated enough to understand what the flag means don't fly it. In the South, it's primarily displayed, like you said, by poor rednecks, and not acceptable in middle- to upper-middle-class society.

[merh]

38. I live in the South and hate the confederate flag.

My understanding is, those people that "honor and cherish" the flag do so as a way to honor the dead who fought in the war and sacrificed their lives for the Confederacy. It is their way of honoring their relatives and their heritage. Confederate flag fans and supporters will say that the war was not about slavery, but was about keeping the federal government out of the state's business and preserving the southern way of life (you all).

Of course, after they give me their spill about protecting their way of life and trying to prevent the government from telling them how to live and what to belief, I then ask them how they think the Iraqis feel.

That usually gets their blood a boiling. Then I ask them how they can be supporters of traitors to the USofA? After all, the rebels were fighting against the USofA and were killing American soldiers, union soldiers. It was the South that fired the first shot and southern troops were the aggressors. Heck, I was kicked off of FR for posting a thread just on that little ole subject. What a hoot that was.

If you want to know about the flag, go look over there, there are hard core supporters posting at FR that cherish the thing, that hateful piece of cloth.

Sorry I can't help you understand this any better. I personally can't understand it and I was born and reared in the South. American by birth, Southerner by the grace of God! (deep southern drawl here) (I try my best to ignore the racists and rethugs.)

:hi:

[stanwyck]

41. Veiled racism

steadfastly defending the Confederate flag in this decade is bigotry. I agree completely with your thinking.
The flag has been so embraced by white supremists that it is now transformed into a symbol of hate.
Besides, it's the flag of a defeated army.
The South lost. Get over it. That "way of life" is gone. It was never that glorious anyway.

[merh]

44. Why, it is actually much worse than the flag of the army/nation

that lost.

It is the flag of traitors to the United States of American. The rebels (insurgency) tried to turn back the US military and stop the USofA from interferring with the South's way of life.

Who would have ever thought that the traitors to the USofA would be so honored and revered.

Next we will be declaring Benedict Arnold day a holiday. :sarcasm:

Though, for all of my hate for that evil symbol, I must admit, my support of free speech provides that they have every right to wave it and use it as a curtain in their windows or a decal on their cars. BUT, I can't stand it as part of any state's flag.

[Yupster]

101. I think it's odd that you support free speech, but then

brand people traitors, maybe the most horrible crime, without them ever being tried, much less convicted.

That's a pretty selective honoring of the Bill of Rights in my opinion.

Treason is a very serious crime. At the end of the Civil War, the most important Confederate leaders were captured and indicted for treason.

The two most famous were Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee.

Davis was imprisoned and took the upcoming trial as his chance to be vindicated by history. He hired a high priced group of northern abolitionists as his defense team. Cornelius Vanderbilt and Horace Greeley ensured that money would be no concern.

His defense was a simple one. Secession was indeed Constitutional, was done properly, and therefore the invasion and conquest of the south was illegal. Therefore, he was not a traitor, but the wrongfully imprsisoned elected leader of an illegally occupied nation.

Lee retired to be president of a tiny college and wanted to just be left alone to live out his last few years encouraging his former soldiers to be good citizens and rebuild the south.

As the government prepared its cases against the two men, some problems arose quickly.

The states joined the Constitutional government by a vote of their state legislatures. They left by the same vote. Was secession legal or not? The Constitution didn't say one way or the other.

What if the Supreme Court ultimately ruled that secession was legal?

The government started postponing the case.

Davis kept demnding, pleading and begging for his right to his day in court to prove his innocence.

He never got it.

Eventually, the government decided it wasn't worth the risk. They bailed Davis out of prison (Vanderbilt and Greeley paid) until his trial which was postponed, postponed and eventually just dropped.

Davis never got his day in court. He was indicted of a crime and never tried.

How'd you like it if the government indicted you for child molestation, and then never put you on trial? Just left you indicted for the rest of your life? Would that not be a gigantic abuse of the government's power?

And then if people just declare you guilty of the crime in conversation? I bet any of us would be against that.

And yet, we'll flippantly call Davis a traitor knowing he had a right to defend himself, wanted to defend himself, and wasn't given the opportunity to.

But we don't like him so we'll declare him guilty. Screw the trial anyway.

[merh]

108. The south fought against the United States

Rebel soldiers killed US soldiers. How much more evidence do you need.
They were treasonous, took up arms against the USofA.

Sorry, that is a stark reality. :hi:

[Yupster]

169. It depends if you consider them Americans

or not.

Japanese soldiers killed many American soldiers during World War II but I hardly consider them traitors, just foreign enemies.

Once a state left the union, either by a vote of its state legislature or a vote of its people, they were no longer part of the USA, and therefore can hardly be considered traitors to it for fighting against a foreign country.

[Lex]

42. The Confederate Flag is a hostile flag to the United States of America

and I can't understand why a flag hostile to the United State of America is allowed to be flown over state houses, etc.

It is, in fact, a "captured" flag and shouldn't be flown over any kind of government building in any form.

And I'm from the South.

[RedCloud]

43. How many African Americans sport the confederate flag on their cars?

I think that answers the question of whether it has some racial implications.

I also think the "Support our troops" ribbons/ "God bless America" / and other symbols are Bush lovers who can't explain where Jehovah was that fateful 9-11 and want that war right or wrong, let's kill some non-Christians and justify it later.

[crimson333]

211. My best friend a work was African American and he had a

Confederate flag plate on the front of his car.

[Tomee450]

237. Another best friend story, eh?

As in some of my best friends are black? Sure.

[crimson333]

258. ok then I will pretend that my best friend of ten years

is not African American if makes you happy.

[Tomee450]

259. Sure........

[stanwyck]

45. true story about a friend who went to Emory

from Vidalia, Ga. As a freshman, she wanted to decorate her dorm room. So she put this "cool flag" her father had up on the wall. (He's been a soldier in WWII and brought it back).
It was a Nazi flag...a swatiska. Within minutes the word was out and many of her dorm mates were livid.
The proctor had to explain to her why maybe that wasn't the best choice. She said (and I believe her because I've known her for years) that she had no idea what it meant.
Needless to say, it took her a while to mend fences.
But she did.
And her Jewish friends love telling that story.

[emcguffie]

46. I am a southerner-

It's hard to put it in context for people who are not.

The South was seriously punished after the Civil War. There was a great deal of anger, even when I was growing up, and I'm 51. My father knew his great-grandmother, who was an adult in the Civil War, and in the path of Sherman.

She told him what happened to her. They knew the Yankees were coming. They hid the livestock in the woods and buried the silver. the Yankees came, went through her house with their bayonets, ripping everything apart so that it was useless, and then they took all the food, and burned every single building to the ground.

Then they left that family, and all the families around them, standing, sitting there with no food and no shelter. Pretty pissed off she was until the day she died at age 101. I never met her.

There is, or was, a southern identity which is different from the one up here, and, believe it or not, it is a very nice one, apart from the slavery issue. Remember, most people didn't have slaves, only the upper classes did. The South doesn't like to be identified only as "the people who had slaves". People in the north had had slaves well before that. We've just found out that slaves built the White House, although that doesn't qualify as the of slavery. And at the same time, there was a culture and a way of living that was, still is a little bit, different than up here. And Southerners, who grew up being shamed, as I was, just for being born in the South, at some point, even secretly, like their identity and resent the put-down. They may prefer that culture, that way of life. And not be in favor of slavery. I haven't lived there in a while, but it was a much better place to live, let me tell you, with a lot more CULTURE, believe it or not, and music and art and ballet. Or all that was much more accessible, and it was something you did every weekend, not once in a blue moon.

There is a different kind of racism up here, and it is much more subversive, because it is hidden. Racism in the South is right out front. You know where people stand. Up here, people pretend not to be racists, but the races pretty much socialize apart. Not altogether, but mostly.

That's my little rant as a southerner who misses the south, but not slavery.

[Tsiyu]

55. Jeb Stewart burned and trashed a few Yankee towns

like Chambersburg, PA, but you are correct when you say there is a legacy in the South of really tough times Post Civil War (and it's the Woe-ah of Northern Aggression - as I've been corrected many times.) There are family stories of horrific acts committed by those Union soldiers. I have been told by Southerners that they were actually raised to hate and mistrust all Yankees, and this teaching goes back only a few generations.

This is the legacy of all war. I understand how the flag would represent to the wronged families' heirs an "underdog, rebel"
spirit, but they are failing to see the "underdogs" who were slaves, both black and Native American (one of the least told parts of history-the enslavement of Native Americans) who were hurt by those who carried the Rebel flag. They think they are honoring their ancestors while most of society views the flags as a clear symbol of racist sentiment.

In this case the Rebel is wrong, if he wants to truly be American. Find another symbol, I'd say, but I also believe in free speech. Just don't make it part of anything official.

[emcguffie]

110. You are right, but to a degree--

I was taught that the confederate flag was a terrible symbol, and one that was deeply insulting to many people, by my parents.

But I can understand those that don't get it. It's almost as if you're saying that the South was thoroughly evil because of the slavery issue. Was the north evil when slavery existed here? What does that mean for the first US flag?

That flag isn't a symbol of hate, but that's just because the south lost the war.

As it the Confederate flag is such a symbol, I would never dream of displaying it. But I can understand those who resist giving it up. And as you say those people are being insensitive to those whom it offends, so too you are being a wee bit insensitive to those who feel an attachment to that flag. You don't know what it's like to be southern, and you're probably not very interested in knowing.

Then again, maybe you are! But I doubt it.

Of course as a symbol it is insulting. But the reasons get pretty complicated. Like people.

[Tsiyu]

133. I never said anyone was thoroughly evil

and I've lived in the South for the past 34 years. I was agreeing with your addition to the post- namely mentioning the post-war South and the way the difficulty of that time shaped those people and their progeny.

But if we expect the Germans ( and any decent person) to give up the Swastika as a symbol or risk being judged a Facsist today, it is not out of line to expect the same from a certain segment of Americans. This isn't about any personal admission of evil ; it is about understanding the plight of others. Racism is still rampant in many places. The South has pretty much worked its way out of any Post Civil War slump....

[emcguffie]

240. I was just trying to support understanding.

The original question was why are they attached to it, when we know it is a symbol of racism. Some of them say that it isn't a symbol of racism. I'm not saying they are right, just trying to express what it may be like in those shoes.

[ultraist]

73. Interesting.

While I agree that racism in many ways is more insideous in the North, their hate crime rate has increased significantly. In fact, there are more hate crimes in the North and West than there are in the South (FBI stats).

CA has 42 active Hate groups and PA has 32. These "Blue" states have their fair share of racial problems.

PA has only a 9.8% Black population. Whereas NC has a 22% Black population (USCB stats). Other Southern states have an even higher percentage of Blacks. We have fewer hate crimes in NC. WHO is living side by side more peacefully?

I have to wonder when people try to pin racism on just the South. Are they denying and minimizing? Or are they just unaware of the facts?

[emcguffie]

107. I was afraid to be so blunt.

Living up here in the north and all. But since you are from NC, you do know exactly what I am talking about.

[ultraist]

111. I appreciate your openess and honesty!

There are cultural differences that can be difficult to articulate. You did an excellent job describing some of those.

[Tomee450]

115. I don't minimize

the racism in the north, it does exist. However, African Americans in the south have to sometimes be fearful of being the victims of violence by ordinary people. James Byrd was dragged behind that truck in Texas, in Florida a young black man was doused with gasoline then set afire, in one of the Carolinas a black couple walking down the street was brutally killed by a white serviceman who was a Klan sympathizer. Recently, there have been several instances of blacks who have dated inter-racially being found hanged but their deaths were ruled suicides. Their relatives did not believe the deaths were suicides. In Georgia, a young man was given a prison sentence for having sex with an under age white girl. He was originally accused of rape but was cleared. The prosecutor also charged him for having sex with a minor. That minor was only a couple of years younger than the defendant. It was pure racism.

I have relatives and friends living throughout the south in places like Texas, Georgia, Alabama, Maryland. Some of these individuals have lived in the north. They are much more fearful of violence that may be encountered from an ordinary citizen than they were in the North. A friend living in Atlanta said that although the city seems to be progressive, most of his acquaintances are hesitant to travel too far outside of the city.

In some of the smaller towns of Alabama and Texas it's as if the Civil rights era never occurred. Still the deep division of the races with blacks being fearful of complaining. One of my friends said she had lived all of her life in the North and never had been called a nigger but had that slur hurled at her after only being in Georgia one week. In some of the smaller towns in the south blacks are still more likely to have their change hurled at them by a clerk, to be waited on last even thought they were first. I know that many southerners are not racist but many many are. They still hold attitudes prevalent in the 1860s.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

197. Maryland??????

[Tomee450]

238. Yes Maryland and

it was in Maryland that elderly black women returning from a shopping trip were chased down by whites in a truck. They tried to outrun the truck but could not. One of the women was shot to death.

[emcguffie]

241. Yes, facism is on the march.

I attribute that to that shrub in D.C. There are evil people everywhere, and now they are being encouraged to express their evil.

That is what is so alarming about today.

At the same time, racial crimes up here may pass unnoticed, although that's not really very likely. But I bet if one were to look, you would find them.

Hey, cops just kill black men here.

[lies and propaganda]

49. I moved to Louisiana when i was 12

and I left at 19 a few years back.

I cannot tell you how many arguments i had with these ididots that would just sya over and over about how the flag was about pride. Pride in what? You lost.
But it never made any sense, and personally i believe that the Civil War still is alive and burning down there. Slavery definitely still exists, its just called by a little more P.C. a name.

[bamacrat]

52. Can't. I've lived in Alabama my whole life, I dont understand it.

People down here say it's their heritage. German people don't wave swastika flags around screaming, It's my heritage.

[redqueen]

53. Born & raised in Dallas, but I can't explain it.

I can tell you that the people I've seen that defend it are all fairly unskilled at the cognitive type stuff. I mean they can go to college and get degrees and hold down jobs... but when you start talking to them about economics or history or anything, they can only demonstrate regurgitation. There's no sign of comprehension.

[NoSheep]

54. I'm from NC and it makes NO sense to me. I don't think "they" care.

[Ron Green]

57. It's nostalgia for something that never was.

Like so many of our symbols.

[LizW]

60. Why do you think we would know?

You have probably heard all the same excuses we have.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gray matter]

64. Lost?

North:1
South:0


Halftime! ;-)

[Lex]

83. What?

Halftime?

I guess you're advocating aggression against the United States of America?

[Heddi]

63. It's not just the south or Southerners, though

I grew up in South Carolina and moved to Washington State in 2001. While the Conf. Flag isn't seen much around Seattle, I've seen it ALOT since moving out to the central-eastern part of the state. In fact, I was at the Dollar Store the other day and a guy walks in and is talking to the cashier (I gathered from his conversation that he was another employee).

He had a confederate flag tattoo on his upper arm, and his truck was covered in Rebel Flag regalia (I knew it was his truck because he was talking to the cashier about it and pointing at it through the window).

There's alot of Confederate Flag wavers out here. I see them often on trucks. There's alot out in Idaho too.

My mother-in-law lives in Kansas, and when we went out a few years ago to see here there were alot of confederate flags out there as well.

I always laugh because I see someone in Washington with a confederate flag and I think "Your state wasn't even BORN during the Civil War...wtf does the Civil War have to do with Washington? WHY DO YOU CARE???"

[boohootwo]

67. I'm proud to be a southerner.

Th flag represents the south to me and nothing else.

[ultraist]

70. You really should educate yourself on what the rebel flag symbolizes

It does not merely represent the South.

People who deny that it is a racist symbol are either uninformed, in denial, or willfully denying the truth.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

81. Which Confederate Flag?

The Bonnie Blue Flag? The Stars & Bars? The square Battle Flag? Or the rectangular Navy Jack--favored by most a-historical folks who think of it as "The Confederate Flag"?

The Battle Flag--or the "widescreen" Navy Jack version--became popular throughout the South when Southern Blacks were fighting for Civil Rights. The flag represented opposition to those rights.

Many in the South don't fly the flag. And racism can certainly be found in all parts of our country. I remember some of the Minutemen waving it proudly as they "guarded" the Border.

[kwassa]

85. This is revisionist history of Lincoln and slavery that is too common

on the Internet.

grey matters:
"You see the Confederate flag has never stood (for most of those who understand it) as a racist symbol."

It is considered a racist symbol by virtually every African-American, and most of the white population of this country.

"If you want racism, you go to the Stars and Stripes. In the South, although there was separation, the blacks respected the whites and the whites respected the blacks."

Ahistorical nonsense of the most dangerous sort. Whites denied blacks all opportunities, and terrorized them from demanding their inalienable Democratic rights in the Jim Crow era after the Civil War. There was intimidation, and exploitation, not respect.

"Today, we live, work, eat, and worship together. And I will tell you this, there was no more racism in the South back then than any other region of the country."

Oh, please. Most church denominations are segregated, housing is still largely segregated.

[Lex]

86. The Confederate flag is a captured flag of the USA and

is a flag defeated by the USA in a war.

It shouldn't be allowed to fly in any gov't building that belongs to the USA.

[Zenlitened]

89. "blacks respected the whites and the whites respected the blacks"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

What planet are you writing from?

[tx_dem41]

95. "although there was separation, the blacks respected the whites and the...

whites respected the blacks".

:silly: That's all I can say, in response.

[ultraist]

96. The rebel flag is NOW a racist symbol

And it was THEN used as a racist symbol.

Yes, Lincoln made numerous racist comments. So? Am I surprised that a white male in power in that era was racist in many ways? Not hardly.

Your words of Lincoln have NOTHING to do with the reality of the rebel flag.

BTW, do you have a link for your QUOTES? I'd like to put them in context. Was this in response to the movement initiated by BLACKS to return to Africa?

[kenny blankenship]

105. The simple truth is that the Confederate BATTLE flag

was resurrected only in the south and raised over southern state capitols and added to state flags in the 1950s and thereafter, IN RESPONSE TO BROWN V. BOARD OF EDUCATION.

The simple truth is that the Confederate battle flag is a RACIST symbol in its present usages, whether official or unofficial, and a symbol of armed treason in any age: simple undeniable truths which only a racist would deny.

[boohootwo]

82. No. That;s what it means to YOU - not me.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boohootwo]

112. You're offended because I don't feel the same as you?

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boohootwo]

118. I choose not to be offended by you - just as you have a choice

not to be offended by a piece of cloth.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boohootwo]

121. You're just looking for confrontation - not understanding.

Good luck with life, Buddy...you're sure gonna need it with your attitude.

[Zenlitened]

122. No, I understand your type perfectly.

But thanks for your fond wishes! :rofl:

[boohootwo]

126. Nothing fond about it.

[Zenlitened]

129. Uh, you felt the need to point that out?

:spray:

[stanwyck]

102. You'll need awareness

of how the flag has been used in order to understand why people are opposed to its use. View newscasts featuring white supremacists or, if you can stand it, visit their websites.
The Confederate flag has become their symbol of hatred.

[boohootwo]

113. How it's been used doesn't mean that's what it stands for.

[kwassa]

124. How it's been used DOES mean what it stands for: racism, and slavery

How could you draw a meaning for the flag outside it's actual use in society?

You might have your own personal meaning, but this does not mitigate it's historical use.

[stanwyck]

128. I disagree

it's now a symbol. It stands for white supremacy and oppression of minorities. How something is used is EXACTLY what it stands for...it's use defines its meaning.
You can't possibly believe that how something is used has no connection to its meaning.
That doesn't make any sense.

[boohootwo]

142. The flag was not created for the purpose of offending a

group.

[stanwyck]

154. Wer'e not living

in the antebellum South now. The Confederate Flag is now a symbol of hate used by White Supremacists. It's original purpose is lost. Gone. And even then, it stood for a way of life which oppressed humanity: the enslavement of humans.
You must confront the reality of the flag in 2005. It you wave it proudly in front of your home/business then you must deal with how the rest of society views you based on that symbol.
You will lose friends and business based on that symbol.
Many do not support this symbol of oppression and bigotry.

[kwassa]

179. but it was USED to suppress African-Americans, and had no other purpose

when the purpose of the Southern secession is considered. The sole reason to secede was to preserve slavery.

[moose65]

80. I don't know if I'm "proud"

I've never really thought about it like that. To me, that kind of pride is similar to being proud of being a man/woman/blonde/brunette/redhead. I'm from the South, born and raised. But it was an accident of history..... I had nothing to do with it! Don't get me wrong, I love the South, but I am not necessarily proud of everything the South has done (just as we on DU love America but also criticize it.) I think, when discussing the Civil War and slavery, we have to acknowledge that the issues are more gray than we might like. Not all Southerners owned slaves. Not all Northerners were abolitionists. After the war, race relations improved somewhat during Reconstruction, but then took a nosedive back in the years after Reconstruction. In the North as well as the South, there was horrible racism against black people. This is one of our dirty little secrets. The South gets blamed for racism and certainly deserves its share of the blame. But, the North is far from innocent in matters of discrimination against African-Americans. Indiana was a hotbed of KKK action for many years, to cite one example.

[Taverner]

100. Why not fly the Bonnie Blue flag then?

The Confederate flag was the flag of traitors who wanted to overthrow the Government, and keep slavery alive. Nothing to be proud of there, and nothing distinctly southern there either. Remember that a good deal of southerners at the time were black, and were not allowed to participate in the treasonous government.

Bonnie Blue flag, however, had much more noble origins - being the flag of the popular revolt against tariffs that kept the Southern Economy at the time under the Union's thumb.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

131. LOUD NOISES!!!!! N/T

[MessiahRp]

225. I'm not here to engage in flamebaiting or anything

but when I see that flag it represents racism to me. I would think there's a lot of people that agree with me on that point also.

Rp

[ultraist]

68. "Are white Southerners?" No. Not all white southerners!

Only the ignorant rednecks fly the rebel flag.

Sorry to disappoint, but not all Southerners are ignorant rednecks.

There are MILLIONS of Southern Democrats who understand that the rebel flag is a painful racist symbol.

[Onlooker]

120. I apologize

I should have said "Are large numbers of white southerners." Of course I know that a large percentage of white southerners not only oppose the confederate flag, but also Republican Party!

[Igel]

71. One of my maternal great-(great?)-grandfathers fought, it seems,

on the southern side. Obviously he survived, since he was a kid at the time with no acknowledged offspring. That said, I'm from Maryland, and feel no great attachment to the north or the south--before the war, Baltimore was pretty much a southern city, after the war it was pretty much a northern city (at least as far as linguistic and cultural influences go).

Symbols mean what the users intend them to mean. I have very pro-Soviet posters up on my walls, some of the "Klin krasnym bej belykh" (Smite the Whites with the Red Wedge) variety from the Civil War. Some surreal ("There aren't and have never been better nipples: I'm ready to suck until I'm advanced in years!"). Others prosaic ("Buy GlavKhladDoProm Ice-Cream"). They are symbols. But of what?

People are free to take them at face value: I have Soviet posters on the wall.

People are free to read into them whatever foolish meaning they want: I'm an unreconstructed Leninist-Stalinist? I happen to like the color red? I want to smash the German fascist hordes? I'm proud of my Celtic-but-Russian hero-ancestors? I'm gloating over the demise of the Soviet Union?

I've been strongly anti-Soviet since I was 12, 36 years ago. If they ask, my response is that I like Russian and its literature, even of the Socialist Realist bent, and they're in Russian. They were part of pop culture. I have no great visual aesthetic preferences, so they'll do. They're free to accept what I say, or not. That's up to their prejudices and preconceptions. If they accuse me of lying, they're expressing unfounded ill-will, and will probably not be asked back into my apartment.

Some Southerners and Northerners are, no doubt, racist, in the standard meaning of the term. Others are conceivably "crypto-racist", in some ill-defined and possibly non-definable or provable sense ... but what more evidence do we need, since they obviously can't mean their symbol to have a significance other than some other people say it means? Others are acting in a way that's unrelated, or at best tangential, to racism. What could Southern Pride be, other than support for slavery? Lots of things.

Maybe support for a kind of independence and self-rule that they feel is lacking now, or in the past? Disagreement with and disdain for the kind of cultural supremacy and imperialism the north's asserted for years? Rejection of the humiliation that the north forced on the south after the war--not just that resulting from abolitionist sentiments, although the victors certain recast their reasons for humiliation in those terms?

Many DUers are all too willing to see cultural imperialism, dominance, and humiliation when Americans impose them on others. They're blind when it's imposed on part of America, or when they agree with the reasons for it. For some flyers of the Confederate flag, it expresses racism; for others, youthful rebellion (tying into the "Rebel" image, regardless of other connotations); for others, southern pride and dignity, possibly evoking a past idealized in a way that suits their needs, but not the needs of others.

Where's the usual searching for root causes?

[moose65]

77. What amazes me, is this:

People don't even want to LEARN anything about the Civil War. Seems to me that in the South, it's like a religion, with all this flag waving and re-enacting the war. The re-enacting is kinda creepy to me: can you imagine a group that wants to re-enact D-Day or a battle from Vietnam (or Iraq for that matter)? I think it diminishes the memory of those REAL people who fought and died on the battlefield. I guess we are far enough removed from it that we don't actually think of Civil War soldiers as real, living people who breathed and bled and died just like our soldiers in Iraq. I guess I am a little off-topic here, but it's all related. The people that I've known who waved the Rebel flag did it mainly for the shock value, and the idea of doing something that was not politically correct.

[Bridget Burke]

90. Don't blame the re-enactors.

There are plenty of folks who spend their spare time as Union forces, too. Here in Texas, soldados have joined Texians in commemorating events in our bloody history. Worldwide, re-enactors go from ancient Rome through WWII. (With a bit of overlapping when the creatively anachronistic folks show up.)

In fact, most of these people do try to connect with people of the past as "real." And many of them do some serious study.

[Taverner]

103. The re-enactments are actually healthy IMHO

Part of any recovery process needs a clear understanding. Denial will get you nowhere, and the one thing all re-enactors all agree on is that there were no absolutes during the Civil War.

[Igel]

223. It's not about the history, for most of them, it's about the

symbolism.

The Polish press last month made a big deal out of saving London. And of a Polish battalion who fought in Italy and which was assigned to take an important mountain (hill?) in the German front line. Polish fly-boys flew with the RAF during the Battle of London. They helped, but didn't necessarily save London. The hill was billed as the linchpin of German defenses, and by successfully taking it the rest of the German defensive line could be taken by the Allied forces.

Most people don't want to be politically correct, to make sure their actions are in line with a set of policies imposed by some outside party. Being a rebel shows your independence; without independence, dignity can be hard to come by for some.

And a lot of it's just peer pressure. People like conforming to a set of policies imposed by their friends. We're hardwired for it.

[Taverner]

98. Not just bigotry, but treason

The Confederates were traitors, pure and simple. They took up arms against their own country, seeking to overthrow it in their home states.

This is treason, plain and simple.

[tx_dem41]

106. I hope you never participate in one of those "Let's have a Revolution"...

threads we periodically have around here. ;)

[Taverner]

145. Well main difference is we dont take up arms

They did!

[tx_dem41]

150. You haven't read some of those threads.

Its funny that what some see as treason (not necessarily addressing you) is often colored by one's ideology.

[Yupster]

171. What kind of history is that?

No governments were overthrown through armed revolt. Each of the eleven states left the union peacefully by vote, either of the people themselves or by their state legislatures.

The violence came when they tried to defend their newly elected governments from federal invasion intent on quashing them.

[BikeWriter]

264. WTF happened to the state's right to secede?

[stanwyck]

104. This is why I like the Confederate flag

it's an easy way to cull the herd. Pull up to my house to sell me firewoood, tree services, whatever...and you've got that flag emblazoned on your pickup truck and you can forget about getting any of my money.
It's a dealbreaker.

[CTLawGuy]

109. It is also a symbol of people who wanted to

break away from America, rather than give up slavery.

[Mojorabbit]

117. There are no absolutes

I was raised upper middle class and not as a redneck. We had a confederate flag. It had nothing to do with racism in my family.
I never once heard my parents make a racist remark. We had ancestors who fought in the war.
It was a matter of pride.
It is a matter of family history. A symbol of the southern way of life and I am not talking of slavery.
I was raised to believe that the war was an economic one.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrill_Tariff
The December 25, 1860 Address of South Carolina to Slaveholding States complains about excessive taxation and heavy import duties - a reference to the then-pending Morrill Bill

"And so with the Southern States, towards the Northern States, in the vital matter of taxation. They are in a minority in Congress. Their representation in Congress, is useless to protect them against unjust taxation; and they are taxed by the people of the North for their benefit, exactly as the people of Great Britain taxed our ancestors in the British parliament for their benefit. For the last forty years, the taxes laid by the Congress of the United States have been laid with a view of subserving the interests of the North. The people of the South have been taxed by duties on imports, not for revenue, but for an object inconsistent with revenue— to promote, by prohibitions, Northern interests in the productions of their mines and manufactures."<4> (http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=433)

Historians are not unanimous as to the relative importance which Southern fear and hatred of a high tariff had in causing the secession of the slave states, but there has been a growing tendency to lay more emphasis on it than formerly. Historical opinion of the bill's role dates to the commentators of the 1860's itself.

A debate was waged in England over which side to support in the war. Two irreconcilable views emerged. The tariff hurt the British economy and most British newspapers opposed it, siding with the South, and contending that the tariff was the major reason why the Southern states wanted to secede. One notable writer whose comments tended to support this view was Charles Dickens who in All the Year Round 28 December 1861, wrote "Union means so many millions a year lost to the South; secession means the loss of the same millions to the North. The love of money is the root of this, as of many other evils. The quarrel between the North and South is, as it stands, solely a fiscal quarrel."


With the passion I see here on both sides it seems that after all these years there are unresolved issues on both sides.

Perhaps it is not unlike now when Dems are no longer in power and being run over by Repubs. and we see posts here about suceeding from the south or california suceeding. Frustration.

In MY family, slavery was not an issue re the reasons for the war.
It was economics.
That being said we do not fly the flag because people have ascribed a racist connotation to it but I resent it because it does not mean that in my family.

[kwassa]

127. Of course it's economic: the Southern economy depended on SLAVERY

Slavery was the entire basis of the Southern planter economy.

The war was actually about the extension of slavery into the new territories being settled to the West, and the battle in Congress about whether the new states would be free or slave states. There is 40 years of direct history leading up to the conflict, and the original seeds for conflict were debated during the original debates for the US Constitution.

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

151. And the North not being perfect gives the South permission to own people?

It gives them permission to be traitors?

The fact that the North wasn't perfect has nothing to do with the South continuing to fight for the right to own slaves. And if you don't believe that that was the reason, why don't you read their words for yourself? Look up the declarations of secession. They list slavery and the threats to the institution as the catalyst.

[GarySeven]

156. I hate to break it to you, but ...

slavery was legal in the North before and after the Civil War. It ended in the South by virtue of the military occupation, but it the good, noble, virtuous and otherwise perfect citizens of the northern states didn't abolish slavery everywhere else until the 13th Amendment told them they had to - and a lot of them squawked about ratification, come to that. The South had no choice but to stop "owning people" - what's your excuse for not doing it without a gun at your back?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

162. No, slavery was not legal in the North after the Civil War.

The Emancipation Proclamation at first only freed the slaves in the South but it was then spread to the North. Slavery was NOT legal after the Civil War, not anywhere. The 13th amendment was ratified in 1865, same year as the end of the Civil War. And geez, have you compared the free states vs. slave states? The border states would be the only ones you could apply your last sentence to.

And please, the numbers of slaves in the North were nothing compared to the slaves in the South. Because of that, the tactics used were less severe. The official ends of slavery for the states were

Mass-1783
NH-1783
NY-1799
Conn-1784
RI-1784
Pa, 1780
NJ-1804
Vt-1777

Even though it wasnt in actuality abolished certianly by the civil war almost all northern states actually had freedom for slaves.
Indiana and Illinois both abolished slavery in their constitutions and although it was not always upheld, it was illegal. Ohio abolished slavery in 1802. And wisconsin in the 1840s was the first state to support black suffrage.

You can't compare the North and South on Slavery. While the North may not have been perfect, they attempted some measure of abolition.

[lynne]

166. Not every state ratified the 13th amendment in 1865 -

- the Union state of Delaware didn't ratify it until 1901.

Kentucky - a border state during the war - didn't officially ratify it until 1976.

[kwassa]

182. and did they keep slaves their until that point? Didn't think so.

[Yupster]

189. The last legal slaves in the north

were freed on December 31, 1865 at midnight. That's when the Thirteenth Amendment took effect. That was about 7-8 months after the Civil War had ended.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

192. The United States ratified it in 1865, December.

That means it is in effect, PERIOD. That national law overtakes any state law on the subject.

[Yupster]

188. The Thirteenth Amendment took effect

on January 1, 1866, so yes, slavery was legal in some states of the north after the Civil War. It just was. Honestly.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

190. Those would be the border states that fought with the north.

[Tomee450]

158. It's unfortunate that

so many continue to support the Confederacy which was formed to preserve the buying and selling, the enslavement of human beings. That was the purpose of the Confederacy. The south wanted to save its way of life. Slavery was evil; the Confederacy was formed to preserve evil. Too bad that even in this twenty-first century that there are people who seem to believe that slavery was acceptable.

[Zenlitened]

130. Uh, yes there are absolutes. Anyone flying the confederate flag...

... as some sort of "proud symbol" is a scumbag.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

143. The southern declarations of secession say it's about slavery.

Haven't yuou read those?

If it wasn't about slavery, why did the South refuse to end the war at the Hampton Roads conference when Lincoln offered to compensate the slave owners for their slaves? If it wasn't about slavery, why did confederate leaders say that to allow black soldiers to fight would "negate the purpose of the war"?

It doesn't matter if some of the people who fought with the Germans in WWII did so because of the economic fallout of WWI rather than anti-semitism. What they fought for and the cause they promoted was still abhorrent. Same with slavery. Is it ok to support Bush only because he has tax cuts?

[GarySeven]

157. What about West Virginia?

The western counties of Virginia decided they didn't like the pro-slavery government in Richmond, so in OPPOSITION to slavery they -- get ready -- SECEEDED. And that was perfectly fine with the North, which immediately admitted West Virginia into the Union. So, apparently secession - or as some on this board have called it "treason" - is perfectly fine so long as you secede for the right reasons.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

161. No, because what W. Virginia did was NOT secede from the union.

Secession from the union was illegal because each state had signed and ratified the constitution.

Your argument is ridiculous. It's like saying people who betray a company are on the same level as the person that turns them in (because that person betrayed the betrayers).

[Yupster]

173. Please read Article IV

Section 3.1 of the Constitution about admitting new states into the union and tell me what you think about West Virginia.

It seems blatantly unconstitutional to my reading.

As far as secession, you make the assumption that once a state legislature votes to join the union, then there is no way to ever legally unjoin.

That seems like an odd assumption to make. If that were advertized in 1889, there's no way the Constitution would have ever been ratified. It barely was anyway.

Do you know of any other groups that once you legally join, there is no way to ever leave without getting your home burned down and your china dug up and carted away?

The mafia maybe?

I think it's an awful lot more logical to say that if you join a group by a vote of your legislature, you would leave it by a vote of the same body. That seems a lot more logical to me than the assumption that once you join, you're in it forever regardless of anything else.

[Yupster]

191. Too late to edit, but

I meant 1789, not 1889 in post above.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

193. Constitution says there shall be no formation of conspiracy groups

or confederacies.

It doesn't matter what you believe. They wrote the constitution, they signed it, they put it into effect. Once they did that, to break their word is unconstitutional. Fact is, W. Virginia chose not to commit treason.

[Yupster]

199. When you say West Virginia chose

not to commit treason do you mean "western Virginia" instead since there was no such thing as West Virginia in 1861?

And if I accept your assumption that secession is illegal while the Constitution is silent on the subject, then I'd still like to know how you Constitutionally get to a state of West Virginia?

It seems the Constitution is as clear as day on that subject saying a state cannot be made from another state without the affirmative vote of the legislature of the land-giving state which sure didn't happen.

Aren't you defending an action that was clearly unconstitutional at the same time you are condemning an action that was constitutionally unclear?

It seems like it would take a pretty odd constitutional umbrella to fit those two beliefs under.

And on edit, the Confederacy was hardly a conspiracy. Most states decided to leave the union by an open vote after lots of debate by their state legislature. Hardly a conspiracy.

And once the states left the union, it was none of the USA's business how the Confederate government was formed though again it was certainly not formed by a conspiracy. Most of the best known politicians of those states, both pro-secession and anti-secession met in a known place and met for weeks at a time debating the writing of the Constitution, and the electing of the provisional government while the acting government kept representatives in Washington to negotiate with the USA and keep it informed of the new government's progress.

Cal it what you want, but a conspiracy? Some things you can stretch pretty far, but that's a little past the breaking point of reason.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

229. As I wrote, it also says "no confederacies"

And that part about "once they leave it's none of the U.S.'s business" is ridiculous. You just can't decided the rules don't apply to you anymore because you don't agree with them, especially after you've signed what is essentially a contract.

[Yupster]

244. So your argument is

that since the Constitution is silent on whether states have the right to leave or not, then that right does not exist?

That's a pretty strict constructionist reading of the Constitution.

Is that also true of other rights? If it is not specifically written as a right, then it doesn't exist? That sounds like Judge Bork's view, but I think even his strict constructionism would say that the founders intent was that there was a right to leave the union.

Generally I believe that a right exists unless it is plainly forbidden in writing. I'm more on the Kennedy - Ginsburg side when it comes to Constitutional interpretation rather than the Scalia- Thomas side.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

245. Yes, Im sure Kennedy and Ginsberg would be for the confederacy

:eyes:

Nice try.

It expressly says in the Constitution, "No Confederacies". That's what the confederacy did...formed a confederacy to leave. This isn't about whether the southern states could have left, it's HOW they left.

You can't just decide the rules don't apply to you anymore. That's ridiculous. That argument leaves every institution open for people to just leave. The United States was not a confederacy, it was all states organized under ONE centralized government. If the confederacy had survived, then the states would be free to come and go as they pleased.

Further, say that your argument works, and they leave. They are now a foreign country openly hostile to the United States. If the U.S. used that excuse to wage war with Mexico, the same argument can be made for the U.S. fighting the new "nation".

Oh and I bet Scalia would be for your position. Thomas too.

[Yupster]

260. The southern states did not organize a Confederacy to leave

They left the union individually with no guarantees anyone else would leave after them.

Then they sent representatives to Montgomery and joined the Confederacy. If you're really interested in this subject, the best book on the forming of the Confederate government is "A Government of Our Own (their own?)," which I believe was by Burke Davis but I may be wrong.

When South Carolina left, there was no guarantee that anyone else would leave with them. In fact, Jefferson Davis at the time was in Washington serving on the Crittenden Committee which was desperately trying to reach a compromise to try to keep the other states in the union. Mississippi was the second state to go, but her most famous citizen was trying to keep them in. If a Confederation had already been formed, Jeff Davis sure didn't know about it.

So the organizing a Confederacy to leave the union is just plain wrong history. I admit that this old history teacher and textbook author finds it frustrating to read things like this that are just plain factually wrong, but it happens a lot.

Anyway,

An example would be three of the four largest population Confederate states, Virginia, Tennessee and North Carolina (Georgia is the fourth). Far from forming a Confederation to leave the union, it was not at all certain that any of them would leave at all. In fact, Tennessee held a popular vote on whether to call a secession convention or not after the seven cotton states left. The vote was a narrow "no". It was only when Lincoln "Bushed up" the diplomacy and demanded Tennessee provide troops to invade the cotton states that Tennessee held another vote and this time voted 80-20 to go. That could hardly be called a plot, unless you think Lincoln was in on it.

Anyway, I apologize for being frustrated by some of the things you've posted. If you are a young person, I encourage you to read as many history books as you can, and you will visit wonderful places and share in so many people's dreams. Don't let a grizzled old teacher get you down.

[fishwax]

232. You're trying to have it both ways with W. Virginia too

If Virginia legally left the union and was no longer a state, as you argue, then on what standing do you call on the constitution to protect the wholeness of the state?

On the other hand, if VA couldn't legally leave the union they were clearly in a state of non-compliance and treason, so constitutional protections would again not necessarily apply. I don't think it takes a big constitutional umbrella at all.

[Yupster]

243. Here's an argument Karl Rove probably just wrote down

If a state is in non-compliance, it loses its constitutional protections.

Fast forward seven years from now to a general at the front gate of the Berkely Concentration Camp.

"When the California legislature failed to pass President for Life Bush's 2011 state budget request, that state became non-compliant, and therefore the detainees in this here camp have no right to any constitutional protections. Next question please."

My argument would be that if Virginia legally left the union, the United States would have no right to conquer a part of their territory and make it their own.

If Virginia did not legally leave the union, then the US government has no right to selectively decide to waive the Constitution's plain language and protections.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

246. That's right, when in doubt, call names.

If Virginia legally left, which they did not, they were now a foreign entity that was openly hostile to the U.S. and very open for war.

What they did do was illegally leave the union. The options open to those in W. Virginia were remain there and become traitors, or give up everything and move to the North. Why should W. Virginians pay for their treasonous neighbors?

[Yupster]

261. Western Virginia was almost

immediately occupied by the federal army and remained occupied throughout the war.

Why couldn't the good citizens there just live peacefully and cooperate with the occupying army until the war was over?

Also, if you look at the country by county votes on secession in Virginia (just google it), you'll find that a good chunk of the counties that were lopped off actually voted for secession.

Also, what does any of that have to do with tearing part of the state of Virginia off into a new state? Even if everything you say is correct, wouldn't Virginia still be an intact state at the end of the war? There certainly doesn't seem to be a Constitutional way of breaking it up without its legislature's consent?

[fishwax]

247. clever. here's another one

states can just leave the union anytime they want to, thus rendering the constitutional protections of their citizens irrelevant.

Fast forward seven years from now, when GW has been out of office for a couple of years. Meanwhile, the BFEE, already consolidating power within the texas legislature, secures a vote to leave the union, then proceeds to declare anyone who's skin is not white to be property rather than human. Brown skinned people are enslaved, split from their families, whipped if they try to escape and lynched if they look at white women wrong. The rich get rich off the system, and through scapegoating and officially sanctioned racism, those whites not in the ruling class generally blame their situation on those with darker skin. Newly elected president Jeb Bush says "well, that's that. I guess we don't have any say over Texas."

Neat. Now we've got both your argument and my argument stretched out to rather implausible conclusions. (Oh, wait a minute ... the situation I described really happened, more or less ... I remember now ... is that what you're defending?)

And as for West Virginia, it wasn't conquered. They voted not to be a part of Virginia. If Virginia wasn't a state, the United States was merely accepting a foreign territory that wanted admission.

As far as the selective interpretation of the constitution, if virginia left the union illegally, they were in breach of the constitution. when states are in breach of the constitution, the federal government imposes its will. We saw similar scenarios in the battle for integration. Was it also a violation of the constitution that the election of 1864 didn't include the southern states?

[Yupster]

262. Well today, it's settled law

It's been settled on the battlefield that a state has no right to leave the union regardless of the circumstances. I believe after the war the Supreme Court also ruled such.

Back at the beginning of the country when the Constitution was being voted on, I believe the assumption would have been that sates could freely come and go by the votes of their legislatures.

It was not written into the Constitution either way though, so your own individual understanding would depend on how you read the Constitution.

If a right isn't written into the Constitution either way does that right exist or not exist?

A strict constructionist would say we have no rights other than those that are written into the document.

His opponent would say the right to leave would be inferred in the ninth amendment.

Anyway, it doesn't matter now because it is now settled law. Right or wrong, it's no longer open to debate. It certainly was debatable in 1861 though.

[Name removed]

207. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

269. More personal attacks from you--how surprising.

And absolutely no content in your post. Again, I'm absolutely shocked. What's even more hilarious, is that you attack the north for being snobbish and looking down on the south and then you make a crack about "community college". I don't go to community college, but if I did, I would be proud to go there. At least the people at community college are trying to better themselves, so they won't end up on some messageboard defending a piece of shit flag and the racist traitors that fought under it.

And yes, they were traitors. So were those that started the American Revolution. Difference? Motives. The Revolutionary War took place to preserve freedom. The Civil War took place to preserve slavery. The Southerners weren't just traitors to the United States government, but to the whole concept of the United States. Both George Washington and Thomas Jefferson fought to abolish slavery. Had the situation played out, the U.S. would have become slave free eventually as it would have been voted down as free states outnumbered slave states in the House and Senate.

Not all revolutions are fought for good reasons, an slavery is about as bad a reason as you can get. When the confederate battle flag flies, it says "I honor what those men were fighting for". Great. They fought for slavery. Just because self determination was a part of that doesn't make it ok.

It's pathetic if the best thing you can celebrate about the South is the fact that it participated in slavery and fought to keep it. There are great men and great deeds that have come from the South. Why focus on the bad?

[GarySeven]

280. Why don't YOU focus on "great men and great deeds"

I do not defend the South and its decision to go to war for reasons that were morally indefensible. The tiny percentage of Southerners who do support the war, and the flag, out of hate have no influence on the rest of us.

What does influence the majority of Southerners is attitudes like yours. You simply refuse to let us make up our own minds about our own history - you INSIST that none of us may feel differently than you do. You set yourself apart from liberal Southerners because they take a more nuanced view that violates Northern liberal doxology. If you want to convince those few among us that they are wrong about the flag, do so by example - repudiate YOUR treatment of American Indians, the northerners who profited by slavery, etc. You do not win converts by spouting self-righteous crap.

The main reason Southerners celebrate the Civil War, by the way, is NOT because it perpetuated slavery. It's because it was the one time we stood up to self-important hypocrites like you. That's why the rebel flag is so popular - if there was another symbol for rebellion in our culture, like a kumquat on a field of orange, that's what we'd put on our pickemup trucks.

[fishwax]

284. Are you unable to make your point without lashing out?

Why is semi-charmed quark a self-righteous hypocrite? She hasn't slung cheap insults at you like you have her. Is she a hypocrite because she hasn't brought up the subject of the U.S.'s atrocious treatment of Native Americans in a thread that about another subject entirely? (I love how you say "YOUR treatment" ... apparently the south treated native peoples quite well. :eyes:)

<if there was another symbol for rebellion in our culture, like a kumquat on a field of orange, that's what we'd put on our pickemup trucks>

I don't buy that. I don't see how any symbol of rebellion would be so heartily embraced unless it also carried the history with it--a history built on racism and oppression of non-white southerners.

(edited for clarity)

[GarySeven]

281. oh PUH LEEZE

I do not defend the South and its decision to go to war; their reasons were morally indefensible. The tiny percentage of Southerners who do support the war, and the flag, out of hate have no influence on the rest of us.

What does influence the majority of Southerners is attitudes like yours. You simply refuse to let us make up our own minds about our own history - you INSIST that none of us may feel differently than you do. You set yourself apart from liberal Southerners because they take a more nuanced view that violates Northern liberal doxology. If you want to convince those few among us that they are wrong about the flag, do so by example - repudiate YOUR treatment of American Indians, the northerners who profited by slavery, etc. You do not win converts by spouting self-righteous crap.

The main reason Southerners celebrate the Civil War, by the way, is NOT because it perpetuated slavery. It's because it was the one time we stood up to self-important hypocrites like you. That's why the rebel flag is so popular - if there was another symbol for rebellion in our culture, like a kumquat on a field of orange, that's what we'd put on our pickemup trucks.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

283. And the swastika on a German flag would only commemorate

the time all of Germany stood together against the world. They were rebels!

Don't question it!

[Zhade]

132. Racism.

Yeah, I live in SoCal now, but I grew up in the South, so I'm familiar with those who fly the Stars n Bars.

They mostly turn out to be racists, or failing that, idiots.

[boohootwo]

134. Do conversations such as this help to heal or keep hatred alive?

[Zenlitened]

136. Aw, c'mon... you know you're dying to say it:

"We liberals should be better than that"

:rofl:

[boohootwo]

137. Whatever. Too much anger on this site and it's not constructive.

[Zenlitened]

139. Boo hoo. Too.

:cry:

[boohootwo]

140. very funny.

[kwassa]

176. You don't appear to know much about Civil War history at all

You have yet to pose an argument aside from your one-line headers.

Can you stand and deliver?

[boohootwo]

216. I'm not here to argue.

[GarySeven]

153. Conversations like this only help the Republicans

they keep liberal northerners divided from liberal Southerners; what's worse, they prevent Southern liberalism from spreading. After all, why should Southerners join forces with any group who presumes to lecture us. Northern liberals never say anything about the Know-Nothings who killed immigrants or, for that matter, lynched black people in the North, nor do they seem to recognize that all the racial incidents in the past 20 years have all seemed to come from the "enlightened" north.

The real enemy here is Conservativism; the Dominionists in the Bush Administration seek to crush civil rights, repeal the progressivism of the 20th century, make corporations rich through endless global wars, etc. and etc. Yet there can be no organized opposition to this savage attack on our freedoms until and unless we liberals unite and quit being divided by issues that NO LONGER MATTER.

One way that could start, by the way, is for you folks to stop lecturing us about how we should feel about ourselves and our past, especially since you folks are not so virginal yourselves.

[Tomee450]

160. How can you describe yourself

as a liberal and ignore the feelings of a loyal segment of the Democratic party. If you are truly liberal, you would be appalled at the flying of a flag that to many represents the enslavement of their ancestors and which causes great upset. If criticizing the flying of a flag that represents great oppression turns so called liberals against their party, then their commitment to the party's ideals was not that strong to begin with. I personally would want nothing to do with a so called liberal who supports flying the Confederate flag.

[GarySeven]

172. There you go again ...

Is there some sort of TEST to be a liberal? Do I have to subscribe to each and every tenet of what the Democratic leadership proposes to describe myself thus?

I certainly know that the flag was appropriated by hate groups and used by terrorists who slaughtered innocent men women and children. People are right to hate it, but that does not mean that you are free to criticize an entire group of people for their likes or dislikes; to tell them they must kowtow to your definition of liberalism or get out. This is not "liberalism" by any definition with which I am familiar.

Being a liberal, aside from being tolerant to those who wish to decide for themselves what represents their culture, means having a brainpan bigger than a conservative's; a head, in fact, big enough to encompass the concept of "paradox." I can assure you that it is quite possible to recognize that a symbol is hateful to people in the modern context and yet understand that to those people who seceeded from the union that flag did not mean hatred but rather independence and a right to self determination. OF COURSE the South was wrong, but wrong only because its motive - to perpetuate the monstrosity of slavery - was wrong. The South was NOT wrong to seek its own independent destiny, because ALL free people are right to make that choice. That is why American colonies broke away from England - it is why so many blue-state liberals talk so freely about seceding now after two stolen elections.

Liberalism is not an easy thing, it's a hard thing. It requires both emotional and mental maturity. Your argument is basically that I should hang my head in shame for being a Southerner simply because YOU say I should. YOU say I cannot be a liberal if my understanding of my region's complex history is not the case-closed, open-and-shut doctrine dictated by Northern liberals. Well, you're wrong - about me, about the South and about what liberalism means in toto.

[Tomee450]

186. Oh please

There are certain things that are just plain wrong. Slavery was wrong. It was immoral. The confederate flag is a symbol of the Confederacy which was formed to preserve slavery, an evil institution in which millions of people were oppressed. The states rights which you claim was the reason for secession, was the right to buy and sell other human beings and the right to treat them abysmally.

You have the right to support that flag but I have a right to express my feelings about those who do so. I cannot see how anyone, knowing that that flag was used by those who fought to preserve slavery, could support its flying.

[GarySeven]

201. I have the right to say what my culture is and should be, not you.

If I choose to like the flag, or if I choose to hate the flag, is no business of yours. I can make up my own mind about my past, I don't need you to do it for me.

But if you are going to use your argument, at least be consistent. Please go to the Saudi embassy and protest the inhuman treatment of women that goes on in that country and other countries. Please go and tell governments of other nations, like China and Korea, to improve their human rights records. The ONLY time you make a noise about what goes on in other countries is when it serves the purpose of criticizing Republican policies. There are certain things in those countries that are just wrong - but you and other Northern liberals don't spend a fraction of the energy criticizing those nations as you do with finding fault with Southerners. This is unfortunate, because there are many Southern liberals who could help you DESTROY REPUBLICANS if you didn't spend so much time alienating them. For all the talk I hear from you folks about "Southerners living in the past" you are the folks who can't let a day go by without talking about that flag and the flaws of my heritage.

Here's something to think about: how do you make someone change their mind if you self-righteously moralize to them about their sins, without acknowledging your own? What would you do if someone did that to you - would you change, or would you refuse to change out of spite. Could slavery have died a natural, economic death - or did self-righteous know-it-alls witht their insults contribute to keeping the institution live longer than it should have?

[Tomee450]

239. Baloney

You are defending a heritage that was horrific. We are not talking about the evils of other countries, but about what happened here on these shores. Some things are just plain wrong and if you cannot see that defending a flag that was a symbol of a confederation formed to preservie evil, I pity you.

What if your heritage included the Holocaust in which millions of Jews, Gypsies, Poles, mentally ill persons and others were murdered. Would you defend the rights of those who wanted to display the Nazi flag knowing that so many people perished under the Nazi regime?

During slavery, millions of people perished. During the Middle Passage millions died. Some of the slavers threw alive, but sick people overboard. Blacks were put into pens in the West Indies to season them and then transported to the United States. They were treated as chattel. They had no way to escape. A child born of a slave became a slave. Women were raped and men sometimes castrated. The horrors were endless and yet you are proud of that heritage. How sad.

As I said earlier you can do what you wish,support the flag but I will exercises my right to condemn those who display it and their supporters. If the Confederacy was part of my heritage, I would not deny it. However, knowing the reason for its formation, never in a million years would I honor it.

[GarySeven]

208. Oh, and by the way ...

You see that little symbol with my post? It's the current state flag of Georgia.

Take a note of it. Yes, it is true that the Georgia flag once had the "confederate flag" on it; now that part of the flag is gone.

But you know something? The flag you see here is really a Confederate flag. The First National flag of the C.S.A. Yes, that's right, we got rid of the flag you associate with the confederacy and replaced it with another Confederate flag, the one we Southerners nicknamed the "Stars and Bars."

I think we fooled all the Northern know-it-alls who don't know anything about real history, so don't tell anyone. It's a secret.

[fishwax]

233. Oh, yes, you fooled the northern know-it-alls

:eyes:

the issue is the confederate battle flag, not other confederate flags, which most southern know-it-alls wouldn't readily recognize either. The new Georgia flag incorporates the stars and bars from the confederacy's original flag (which was eventually abandoned because, iirc, it was too similar in design to the U.S. flag).

The battle flag was added to the GA flag in 1956, as part of a wide resurrection of the symbol which coincided with supreme court decisions regarding segregation and the struggle against the injustice of Jim Crow laws. It was a rallying point for those who would intimidate and harass African-Americans struggling for their civil rights. That's a big part of why it's offensive and why so many (and not just northerners) wanted it removed, and it's also why the stars and bars isn't such a lightning rod for criticism.

[GarySeven]

235. Congratulations

Not only were you exactly right in both your paragraphs, but I agree with you in both respects.

[Zenlitened]

164. Um, when you get done celebrating the blemishes in your region's past...

... or, for that matter, when there is a growing movement in the north to celebrate its own failures, and try to eleveate them into something noble and proud... then you might have a point. For now, your little sermon is nonsense.

[GarySeven]

174. Well, when you get done celebrating Columbus Day ...

and the wholesale theft of native American lands and the enslavement of aboriginal peoples, you can next start celebrating Thanksgiving and remember the English colonists and their wholesale theft of native American lands and the subjugation of aboriginal peoples. And while we're talking about the great Northern people, who immigrated to this country and made the original inhabitants feel so "welcome," you can then celebrate the achievements of the Know-Nothings and the Wide-Awakes who preyed on new immigrants for "stealing" from them what they had stolen from the original inhabitants - who lynched Catholics, who murdered Jews and who organized into political muscle to elect politicians whose names are on street signs and public buildings all over the shining, gleaming cities of the North.

I don't raise the crimes of my region into something noble and proud. You do.

[Zenlitened]

178. Uh, yeah. That's exactly it. That's exactly what's being celebrated...

... on Columbus Day and Thanksgiving. And the celebrations surrounding the know-nothings and wide-awakes... man, those are some great parties! It's a wonder I even have time to proudly commemorate the 'War of Northern Aggression,' as we're fond of calling it up here!

:crazy:

[kwassa]

180. Maybe something doesn't matter to you, but it matters to everyone else

Gary Seven:
'Yet there can be no organized opposition to this savage attack on our freedoms until and unless we liberals unite and quit being divided by issues that NO LONGER MATTER."

Guess what? The flag doesn't matter to you. It matters to most liberals, and most people of decency in America.

It does matter because the number one symbol of racism in America is nothing other than the Confederate battle flag.

There is no greater symbol of racism.

[GarySeven]

206. Is a symbol greater than actions?

Bush's policies towards health, education, welfare, affirmative action and hundreds of other social programs are racism in FACT, not symbol. If the flag does matter to liberals,like you say, then liberals are doing what they always do: looking at the flea instead of the elephant the flea is standing on.

[kwassa]

218. You are completely ducking the flag issue

by attempting to divert the argument.

This flag obviously has plenty of meaning to different groups of people.

[GarySeven]

234. I'm saying that the flag is a NON issue

you are so focused in making sure all liberals be true to doxology that you risk losing our republic to thugs. The people in the South who wave the flag don't win any converts; we all know what they are and we don't want anything to do with it. Unfortunately, however, you northern liberals don't make any distinction between us. If we don't feel as strongly about this issue it's because we have decided it's not worth worrying about. You, on the other hand, are convinced that this is a horrible, horrible symbol and that any Southerner who doesn't spend 24/7 condemning it is beneath contempt. You remind me of an ol' hound dog, sitting in the road so busy biting at fleas on his own hide that he don't see the big-rig bearing down on him.

When we are treated as pariahs by people who should be our ideological brethren, two things happen: it makes winning national elections impossible it makes the conservative agenda easier. So why are you trying to divert the argument that we MUST destroy conservativism?

[B Calm]

138. It's a loser flag. Beats me why they are proud of it...

[geniph]

159. It isn't just Southerners who love that symbol...

I live in the north, and in a state that wasn't even part of the union at the time of the war (Washington state), and I see that damn thing on the windows of cars all the time. To me, the problem isn't that some Southern historians or those who wish to express pride in their Confederate heritage want to fly it, it's that it's been adopted by halfwit fucktards the world over to express their beer-drinking, knuckle-dragging, wannabe solidarity with other fucktards. The flag isn't the problem. Southerners are not the problem. Ignorant assholes are the problem. That's just how they recognize each other. A mark of the bonehead, as it were.

Makes it easy for me to stay away from 'em. I hate driving behind a car with a rebel flag; I know at some point, they're gonna toss out their McD's wrappers or beer bottles or lit cigarettes, so I see that flag on the window, I change lanes.

(By the way, both my parents are Southerners, and neither of them would DREAM of displaying the Rebel flag.)

[Cleita]

170. Up north it's become an emblem of the White Supremists.

They can't brandish the swastika anymore like they used to so they are using the confederate flag instead. Why it isn't as offensive, I don't know. I really wish the White Supremists would adopt the KKK flag instead and be done with it.

[Jack_DeLeon]

163. Because with the exception of Texas the rest of the Southern Flags suck...

would you feel proud flying any of them?

[Blue_Tires]

194. um....I hope that's a joke

I have been proud to fly the Va flag for a number of years (hooray for partial nudity!!!)

Virginia State Flag > the rest of the 49

and just to add my two pennies; I'm (black) southern, along with both of my parents' families...like some others said, I kind of use the CSA flag as an idiot marker...it lets me know right off the bat who I should be apprenhisive of....

I've been meaning to get a rebel-style flag, changed to the colors of red, black, and green....I think it could eventually change the flag's meaning entirely

[ThorsHammer]

242. Here you go:

Unfortunately, their website (www.nusouth.com) is down, but I think you can get the shirts elsewhere. Like you said, they redid the rebel flag with red, black, and green. The linked article is also pretty interesting. http://archive.blackvoices.com/articles/daily/ar20020703flag.asp

[marions ghost]

278. creative

--do it! (my family is from VA--not black, but they would still support that message immediately). It has to look seriously different in color from the original...so people would go tilt and then wonder why.

[Sparkly]

175. Your comparison with the swastika is valid.

(I've been down this road on DU before, so I apologize in advance for not reading the entire thread...)

The history of the swastika goes back over 3000 years. People are free to display it, and can of course explain, "To me, this is a symbol of life and good luck." To that, I say good luck!

The meaning of symbols here and now is in the eye of the beholder, here and now. Most American beholders today consider the swastika a Nazi symbol. Thus if someone displays it, they'll offend people; if they do so knowing others will be offended, they are offensive; and they may well be assumed to be a neo-Nazi, no matter what they themselves may think of the symbol.

Same goes for the Confederate flag, except that the "here" may vary. Everywhere I've lived, I dare say that flag is a racist symbol to most, if not all, people. It may mean "pride in the South's history" to some, but to many, pride in that history -- especially as it's been revived with the flag -- equates to condoning or promoting racism. Thus if someone displays it, they'll offend people; if they do so knowing others will be offended, they are offensive; and they may well be assumed to be a racist, no matter what they themselves may think of the symbol.

I was called a "bigot" for making that very point on DU in the last go-round on this issue ("one should not make any assumptions about anybody based on 'cloth'" was the basic argument). I've always said I don't understand the South, and people said things are interpreted differently there than here; but not all Southerners seem to agree.

Where I'm from, it's a racist symbol. Moreover, to many it's also a symbol of hatred for the North and resentments leftover from the Civil War. If someone wants to display a swastika or a Confederate flag, they have every right to do so; but they should know what those stand for in modern America, despite what they may "mean" to them. They should thus understand what assumptions, anger and pain will come from displaying the symbols.

Historical re-enactments of the Civil War or WWII battles? Fine. Otherwise, anybody who displays them should know by now what they're saying to other people.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

181. They fly it...

because they know how much it pisses you off.

If it didn't, they'd find another flag that would piss you off, and fly that one instead.

[autorank]

183. How about: Why does Michael Jackson love the Confederate Flag

They're you've got it, the perfect divisive DU thread.

I'll bet about 90% of the DUers here from states formerly known as the Confederacy could care less about the damn flag.

On edit: I'm from Virginia. Know how many stars and bars I've seen in the past 10 years, NONE!!! :grr:

Give me a break, do something useful...

NEW LEADERS FOR A NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY!

Contact the DNC and Give 'em Hell About NOT Acting on Election Fraud

[Joey Liberal]

184. We need to invade the south again

I think the south needs a major ass kicking again.

[Yupster]

200. Yeah

Last time we only made Georgia howl and burned down the Shenandoah so a crow would have to pack a lunch crossing it.

Maybe this time we can make all of Dixie Howl.

Or better yet, let's finish making Iraq howl first. That will teach them to never stand up to us again.

[Lost Texan in NC]

185. We do care,however,

:smoke:

at the same time some southerners are asking the question, Why reparations to blacks of today, you weren't slaves. If you can prove your ancestors didn't get their acres and a mule them, I'm all for giving that to them. I have heard some blacks say they want a new house and a Cadillac. And I am no a racist.

[Tomee450]

187. But many of the problems

experienced by blacks today are the results of slavery. And as far as "Cadillac and a house" just more racial stereotyping and nothing but rubbish.

[steve2470]

195. I've lived in the South my entire life and...

NO ONE (including my entire family) that I know or have known, has ever flown or displayed the Confederate battle flag. It just wasn't done and still isn't done by people with any kind of brains and/or education. It represents something ancient and dead. My father's family came to Florida from the Baltimore area in 1850, and in general I'm proud of his family. I have no clue if they ever owned slaves. I hope not. Anyway, almost everyone in my father's family is or was intelligent and educated, thus, no display or even discussion of that flag and the supposed glories of the antebellum South. Frankly, I'm glad the Union won.

[bdot]

196. Because it's part of history.

I like the Confederate Flag. I don't own one but it is cool looking.
Who cares anyways. If someone wants a flag, it's their right.
It's like all the annoying Bush or Kerry bumper Stickers. They are really stupid to have but it's people's right to put it on their car.

[Sparkly]

198. It's not a question of the "right."

We all have a right to be offensive, obnoxious, insulting or cruel (and to say, "Well to ME it's not offensive, obnoxious, insulting or cruel").

(Btw, I don't find Kerry bumperstickers annoying. Do you?)

[bdot]

209. Actually we do have the right.

We all have the right to be obnoxious and insulting. The confederate flag is just as obnoxious and insulting as the African "flags" are here. They are used by groups to start fights and gangs in schools.

And I do find Kerry bumperstickers annoying just like Bush ones.

[fishwax]

210. you've the right to be obnoxious/insulting/cruel, just as Sparkly said

and you gladly agree :)

So why is it that you put flags in quotes, as if denoting irony or derision, when referring to the African flags that you find so danged insensitive?

And do you find these African flags equally obnoxious and insulting? Why are they obnoxious and insulting--because they are used to start fights? By that do you mean that they are used as weapons, or what?

[fishwax]

204. So the confederate flag is cool, but Kerry stickers are really stupid

:wtf:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

231. The swastika is part of history too

[Onlooker]

202. Having asked the question in the first place ....

I suppose with 200 responses so far, it's clearly an emotional issue.

Displaying the flag is cruel for those who are victims of racial discrimination or for whom the memory of slavery still causes pain. Just as one can easily imagine Jews wondering what part of their history and future was lost thanks to genocide, one can also imagine southern blacks feeling the same thing.

Those who defended the flag mostly talked vaguely of tradition and southern pride, but I'm not sure what those things mean. Yes, there was a wealthy class who, based on watching Gone With the Wind, seemed to have some attractive affectations. But, other than that, what specifically is there to be so proud of that it makes up for slavery?

emcguffie in post 46 gave a partial answer to that question:

"There is, or was, a southern identity which is different from the one up here, and, believe it or not, it is a very nice one, apart from the slavery issue. Remember, most people didn't have slaves, only the upper classes did. The South doesn't like to be identified only as 'the people who had slaves'. ...And Southerners, who grew up being shamed, as I was, just for being born in the South, at some point, even secretly, like their identity and resent the put-down. They may prefer that culture, that way of life. And not be in favor of slavery. I haven't lived there in a while, but it was a much better place to live, let me tell you, with a lot more CULTURE, believe it or not, and music and art and ballet. Or all that was much more accessible, and it was something you did every weekend, not once in a blue moon."

But, still, it seems to me southern pride should be easily trumped by southern shame, or as Tomee450 said in post 97,

"I am African American and I'll tell you why that heinous flag should be hated by everyone. It represented the Confederacy which was formed because southern states wanted to continue the enslavement of my ancestors. Take a look at the articles of Secession. Most mentioned slavery as being the reason for leaving the union. When I think of the Confederacy, I think of states with their slaves markets, their auction blocks, of black bodies being stripped and handled like beasts, of parents seeing their children sold off, of black women being raped. I think of blacks being fed poor food, given poor clothing, barred from getting an education, barred from even getting married. I think of the great unease many slaves felt as Christmas approached since in many localities that is when slaves were sold as their masters settled their accounts. The Confederacy was formed to preserve evil and the flag used as its symbol reminds many African Americans and others of that evil. People who continue to support that flag are callous,selfish and racist."

As far as the posts that say this issue is divisive, I don't think it's any more divisive for southerners and northerners than it is for southern blacks and whites. At any rate, the only way to heal these divisions is to talk about them and try to at least understand the different points of view.

[spacelady]

213. Not a battle flag enthusiast here, but when a symbol of heritage and pride

is hijacked by racists groups like KKK, have they not triumphed? For example wouldn't Christian symbolism that has been co-opted by a hate group cause great consternation and create a stubborn refusal to give them up?

[theHandpuppet]

219. Whose heritage and pride?

Does this flag also represent the "heritage and pride" of black Southerners, millions of whom also lived in the South as slaves? The "Southern heritage" claim is all so much B.S. when it reflects only a white face. That flag wasn't hijacked by racist groups; it was a symbol for the preservation of a racist culture from the git-go. That's like claiming a tiger stole its stripes from a zebra.

[marions ghost]

276. the cross HAS been co-opted

by the KKK, and a lot of RW fundies are not doing any favors for Christianity by displaying crosses as they spread their religion of intolerance and fear.

In the case of the confederate flag I think Southerners are going to have to give that one up as a symbol of heritage and pride. It has been successfully made into a badge of hate and intolerance, and it offends too many people. At this point it has been appropriated by small-minded Americans all over the country. My ancestors fought for the South in the Civil War, and it's part of my history. But instead of just letting it remain a remnant of history, it's been revived as a battle flag for a brand new generation of hate-mongers. Too late to turn back the clock on this.

Crosses and similar Christian symbols are in the same danger, but Christianity has more followers who care deeply about this, so maybe it won't meet the same fate as the historical flag of Dixie, which got ripped off while nobody much cared. The confederate flag should be displayed ONLY in places commemorating the Civil War or in reinactments--NOT at statehouses and capitols, football games, parades, etc. It's just not OK to flaunt it in the faces of people who are justly offended by the current hatefest in America.

[PaulaFarrell]

248. Denial

Pure and simple. If you learn your Civil War history in the south, slavery plays very little part in it. It's all about states' rights, and how the south was wronged during the reconstruction and carperbaggers and scallywags (now that is a large chip on some people's shoulder). There is a lot of emphasis on the fact that Lincoln waited several years before freeing the slaves, and the numbers of slaves (probably small I know) who fought for the south rather than against it.

People from my parents' generation were fed a line about how the masters looked after the slaves, in a very patriarchal way (and of course the slaves could't look after themselves); people from my generation just look around and say, well, I can't see any discimination, what are blacks complaining about? (not my opinion, btw) but I have hope for my children's generation...

[VRine]

252. I'm a Southerner

Most of my family have been in the South for at least two hundred years yet I have no loyalty to the confederate flag.
Some say its a matter of Southern pride and heritage. I'm a Southerner, born and raised but I do not feel pride when I see that flag. Some of my ancestors fought for the Union while others fought for the Confederacy. My link to the South and my Confed ancestors does not instill a need to identify with a symbol of intimidation and hatred.

I love the South. I love the Southern culture. There are so many positive aspects of Southern culture to love. But, that flag does not represent a positive aspect of our culture, at least not in my opinion.

Some of my neighbors had this flag proudly waving in their front yards. After 911, they took down their confederate flags and replaced them with American flags. Hmmm

Just some thoughts from an old Southern gal...

[wildeyed]

254. Thanks for the insight.

To me that flag will always represents hatred, injustice, bigotry, fear.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Yupster]

263. You make a good point about

the taking down of the flag.

Generation to generation, there are fewer and fewer people who recognize the passion of the flag.

The Civil War in the south was something unlike anything the USA has ever seen before.

In most of our wars, we've ost 1-2 % of our military age population. The south during the war lost 25 % of their military age white men killed and had another 25 % wounded. Their livestock was killed., their horses taken away, their railroads ripped up, thousands of businesses and homes burned. The people's wealth was wiped out as it had been in Confederate currency, Confederate war bonds or slaves. Property was lost as there was no way to pay property taxes.

The people thought they had the right to secede. They fought to defend their new government harder with more losses and under worse conditions than any other group of Americans ever fought (exc. Native Amers?). And yet they were ground down and had to surrender when there was just nothing left to fight with.

Of course it left an incredible mark of bitterness on those people. having to surrender when they were sure they were in the right.

And it left a great mark on their children and grandchildren.

But each generation that passes the connection gets further and further away. With the influx of immigrants into the south and the lengthening of the generations, soon there will be fewer and fewer people who find meaning in the Starry Cross.

[Bryn]

255. I am Southern, some of my ancestors fought for the South

As for the flag, I don't look at it as a hate thing for the blacks, but rather a reminder it was that battle flag the South fought under, they did not carry it as "Hate Crime" for the Blacks like KKK did for heaven's sake, they were carrying it to defend their rights. They weren't willing to die for those slaves. It wasn't about just Slavery, it was about several other things also. The South voted to secede ... peacefully, but the North came to force the union. I strongly believe the South would have done away with the slavery anyway, one way or another without that very, very sad bloody battle which killed so many men as well as women/children. British had done it before they did away with the slavery, the North did it before they did it away so South would have also. It's still a very touchy subject as you can see.

Why don't you ask some DU members about their Che avatar? Wouldn't it offend Cubans since Che was Fidel Castro's right arm man and helped Castro conquest Cuba???

[blindpig]

273. south abolish slavery, I doubt it.

The British didn't have a plantation system as the center piece of their economy. Rice in particular required servile labor, you couldn't get people to do that miserable work economically without force. Proof is that rice collapsed at the end of slavery. Fact is many southern leaders had their eyes on the next tier of Mexican states, Chihuahua and Sonora, in order to expand slavery.

The yeomanry of the South were fooled. They fought a rich man's war. That they fought bravely, often brilliantly, is without doubt. That makes it worse, for it was a bad cause. Does any of this sound familiar?

States Rights? The only state right the south was concerned with was the right to have their "peculiar institution".

History, read it and weep.

[Bridget Burke]

277. Most Cubans have no problem with Che.

The Professional Cuban Exiles do. Too bad Cuban_Liberal is not here to complain!

[mitchum]

265. I'm a southerner and I don't understand the embrace of that LOSER RAG

I guess it's just because we have a lot of dumb motherfuckers down here

[Sgent]

266. From Mississippi

And attended a college who spread out a 50 yard long confederate battle flag when the one the national football chapionship in the 60's (also had race riots for first black admission, etc.)

To answer the original question, I would posit the following:

1) To piss off northerners
2) To piss off northerners
3) To honor their ancestors

The South (esp Miss & Louisiana & Alabama) went from being one of the wealthiest portions of the country to one of the poorest. The reason was what most here see as an aggressive war by northerners, followed by a brutal occupation (Reconstruction). People like Sherman and Grant fought a war of obliteration, and the south still suffers to this day from much of what they did.

I don't neccissarily buy that this war was entirely about slavery. There were good indications that it was on its way out regardless, and more importantly the country had just rebeled against Englad not 50 years earlier (war of 1812). I think the idea existed (right or wrong) that the states were the powers, and the feds where just there to deal with foriegn governments.

This is a poor region, and most of our problems (black and white) are a lot more similar than might be expected. I have friends whose parents grew up with no plumbing and no electricity (I'm white). They where sharecroppers who in many ways were not sigfnificantly better off (if not worse off) than the slaves of 100 years previous. Compare this to the Northern's who by the mid 40's and 50's had massively different life styles.

Finally, another question to ask would be why do black people support the flag? Over 30% of blacks in mississippi voted to keep the confederate battle flag as part of the state flag. That is not a insignificant minority -- I can gaurentee you you want find 1 in 100 jews that want a swastika on any where near them.

[dryan]

271. My 2 cents....

this is really fascinating folks. Here we are 140 years after Appomatox Courthouse (check your history books if you don't know what that was)and we are still arguing over what the Civil War was really about.

The North and many Northerners are still punishing the South for the Civil War. This is a tragedy. The Civil War was about states rights -- one of which was the ability to own slaves. Anyone that thinks it was just over slavery doesn't know what they are talking about. But if you really know America History -- the causes of the Civil War started as soon as we became a country.

The Emanicipation Proclamation was done as much for political purposes as today's Patriot Act. Lincoln knew that England was secretly on the side of the south and he wanted it pushed through because he knew that the British would not want to continue negotiations with the south.

[Bryn]

282. I noticed that the Northerners still look down on the South

We are still experiencing the Ripple Effect from that Civil War. Yes, this is a tragedy. It wasn't all about the Slavery, but about becoming a country of its right. The South did secede peacefully, but the North refused to let the South go and was aggressive toward the South.

[kwassa]

286. The Civil War was all about slavery, and nothing else of real meaning

Only ahistorical revisionists would think otherwise. The economic and the state's rights arguments all circle back to the basis for both: slavery.

The South didn't secede peacefully, the South aggressively attacked a US military fort, Fort Sumter. The South STARTED the Civil War.

[ScreamingMeemie]

272. MrG has a Confederate flag wrapped up and stored in his footlocker

of memories. His father was named after a Confederate soldier who died at Shiloh. The boy who died was 17. He owned not a slave...he fought basically, I imagine, for the very same reasons the kids who get "talked" into military service today fight for. Someone came along and whipped him up..."fight for the Cause" no matter what that cause may be. He owned not a slave...

...for MrG,it is his heritage. Not something he looks at and thinks racist thoughts over. He's not flying it. It is in honor of a young man in the distant past, bleeding his life's blood, fighting for something, no matter how misguided he may have been.

And, I have no problem with that.


Thanks,
Laura

[Bridget Burke]

279. The flag in the footlocker means one thing.

The decal on the back of the pickup truck is another matter, entirely.

[ScreamingMeemie]

285. That was not how this thread started. This thread started as hating

the Confederate flag period. :hi:

[Moderator]

287. Locking.....

This thread has run its course.