Why aren't "license checks" illegal?

[Ripley]

I just got stopped by a road block of 3 Sheriff's deputies at a 4-way stop outside a subdivision for a "license check." When the deputy walked up I asked what the problem was. He smiled and after walking to the back of my car and looking at my plate (my state doesn't require front plates) he said "it's just a license check we do in the county." He barely glanced at my driver's license and moved on to the car behind me.

I know they do these kind of things on holidays to check for drunk drivers, but this is a regular Monday and it is not announced. Now, I don't have drugs or alcohol in my car, but I do sometimes drive to the corner store without my license. I suppose I would get a fine or something if I didn't have it on me.

My question is, how are they allowed to do this since it seems to be an invasion of my privacy in my car. Do they do this in other places?

[seabeyond]

1. if you arent doing anything wrong, it doesnt matter

if you have a scowl or dare to feel it is against your right, and god forbid that you say something out loud, then you deserve the taser

we the people have created this

we now have a machine that can make a noise to take you down. someone suggested a branding iron.

but none of this matters because after all they are there to protect you. all you have to do is follow the law. and all will be well.

[AX10]

16. I see no problem with police having "check points" on the public...

roads, but to say that someone who wants to know why should be "tasered" is absurd. I am very discouraged to hear this.

AGGRESSIVE force is NOT needed in a routine traffic stop!

:dem:

[truebrit71]

18. Hmmmm...methinks i smell something...

..so tell me, are you also in favour of a National I.D. card that must be carried at all times, and failure to produce it on demand is grounds for incarceration?

Have fun with your short stay here...

[seabeyond]

20. ya i didnt think it warranted taser either, go figure

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3788527&mesg_id=3788527

this is a different world we live in. havent you been watching. everything is valid now a days. it will be justified excused or ignored

did you hear about the 97 year old woman driving to the beauty parlor in texas being handcuffed. threat that she was to the young burly officers. after all the woman was a criminal. she did break the law.

[AX10]

26. From your post, It sound that you may have condoned using the...

taser for a traffic stop. Please clarify your comments. I hope that no DUer's actually would justify aggressive force during a routine traffic stop. The woman in the Palm Beach case was being very rude, but so was the officer. He has no right to be an arrogant bully and Officer McNevin should be fired for assaulting the woman.

-edit-

"if you have a scowl or dare to feel it is against your right, and god forbid that you say something out loud, then you deserve the taser" Could you be so kind as to clarify this comment?

www.deanforamerica.com

[Ripley]

30. Alright, enough.

You know she was being sarcastic. Oh wait, you might not...she does word things oddly. But I think it was, so quit hijacking my thread.

[AX10]

31. How am I highjacking your thread?

[seabeyond]

35. i do word things oddly. but ax10

you dont know how many times i have listened to people on this board, and many of republican friends that watch abuse rise, and rights disappear say to me. it is a law. or if you are not breaking the law, you have nothing to worry about

i do worry about it. my children are not going to be perfect, as none of us were as teens and young adults. and i am concerned how hard it will be for them to keep their ass out of jail. one child follows rules and law, another challenges. i understand the one that challenges, i do too. i get pissed at the one that follows them all, and judges the rest of us so harshly. wink

[AX10]

40. One of few bright spots in my sad yuppie town is that our police...

officers are respectful of the people and the reverse for those who abide by the law. Someone with a TON of money needs to go to court to fight these injustices. I agree that an officer does NOT have to be all cheery and smily and all that, but they have no right to be rude, disrespectful, and refuse to give out their name and badge number. All the offiers in my town have their full name on their badges.

Please look at this case from Palm Beach. In my view, the officer needs to be fired.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3788527&mesg_id=3788527&page=

[seabeyond]

41. i get too pissed watching it

i know about it. i have no desire to see a man treat a person like an animal. i have seen it enough makes me sick. but......

i started 9 years ago, trying to embrace police with my little boy. he was articulate, a good child, sunshine. i wanted to teach him right, to respect policemen and a sense of community. 4 times.....different police, different situation. cops in convenient stores getting some coffee. i would tell child, go say hi mr policeman. to get a warm interaction going between son and law enforcement. all four times, it was disappointing. the officer wasnt nice at all. we started interacting with the firemen we saw at the grocery stores. they were kind, would put kids in the trucks, answer there questions, interact. reinforcing a positive in community living.

i saw way back then there had been a shift with the police departments. and how they see us citizens

[Pithlet]

57. I agree with you 100%

I've heard the "If you aren't guilty you have nothing to worry about" statement so many times, even here on DU. I think too many people are complacent, combined with the thought that brutality and oppression can never happen to them, it will only happen to those other people. Surely not to upstanding people like themselves.

[AX10]

69. and what is frighting my freind is that DUer's are the type of citizens...

who believe in protecting what our forefathers fought for. This is the same thing that happened in Germany in 1931-1934. They thought that a tyrant could never take hold. And look what happened, the people actually proped up the tyrant.

:scared:

[SlavesandBulldozers]

61. i thought the sarcasm was plain as day

i dont think you worded it oddly.

[seabeyond]

34. i went thru airline check. 6:30 in morning

local, small airport, not enough coffee. two kids so a lot of stuff i am carrying. i was pulled for another search. arms raised as a criminal, i am already bothered. asked how i was doing i mumble, mumble, this is a bunch of crap. without paying attention, a cop shows up, i am told to wait, only to have a man approach and stop an inch from my face just staring at me. i ask him what he wanted. he says, you have a problem. yes this is a bunch of crap i say. and we stand there, like 30 sec or more, until i say, can i go.........he moved out of my way

intimidation. pure and simple. because i dared to open my mouth. not angry, not loud, not a scene, not even a big deal from my side, but i dared to open my mouth

that was three years ago, it is much worse now

a woman on the bush cussing out a driver cause the drive hit her son. she was arrested for a terrorist act,.......because she cussed driver out. later dismissed

[SlavesandBulldozers]

60. oh no nothing wrong with checkpoints. i mean what could be more

American than a checkpoint with a uniformed officer that asks for your papers? Right?

[RPM]

2. because they stop everyone

no bias - so no equal protection challenge

I forget the reason there is no due process issue there, but i think its a matter of people consenting by implication because they choose to use the orads and be licensed.

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. It's still a violation of the 4th amendment.

It is a search, when there is no probable cause, unless you think that anyone and everyone who is on the road is likely to not be carrying their license.

Of course, since everyone in the world drives ten miles over the speed limit, the speeding could be used as probable cause. And, OTOH, if everyone is speeding and you are not, you are not matching the traffic flow and that could be considered suspicious behavior.

Just about anyone can be pulled over at about any time, but without any probable cause there is no justification for checkpoints and roadblocks.

[RPM]

55. The USSC said roadblock checks weren't a 4th amendment violation

Let me see if i can dig up the case - but AFAIK roadblock checks for any reason, if evenly applied to all, are not violative of the 4th amendment....

[lenidog]

3. If you didn't have your license with you

Depending on the officer you would get a fine. When you drive you are supposed to have you license on you at all times.

[Ripley]

4. Yeah, I know but sometimes I'm in a hurry and just grab the cash

and drive up the street. Why should I be fined for that? They could easily run a background check and see if my car was stolen. I'm just trying to understand what purpose does this stop serve?

They could be doing other things like tracking down unsolved crimes. Don't get me wrong, I'm no cop hater. I know some and I respect the awful jobs they have to do. But this seems a sheer waste of manpower.

[glarius]

6. testing

testing....Just trying to see if my post is going where I post it....It wasn't on another thread....

[MemphisTiger]

9. because, depending on the state, you are required to carry

your drivers license while operating a motor vehicle. Like someone else said, if you don't get a pissed off cop, they usually just run a check to make sure your lisence is valid. However, by law you are supposed to have it with you in the vehicle.

[MemphisTiger]

12. sorry double post

[lenidog]

27. When you get your license you whether you know it or not

agree to have it on you at all times as proof that you actually the privilege to drive.

Now like I said it depends on the officer and they time of the month. A lot of officers will tell you that its okay but don't do it again and give you a warning. Others because it is the law will give fine. Finally it also depends on the end of the month and if they have got their quota filled

[SlavesandBulldozers]

62. tracking down unsolved crimes!!!

:rofl: oh man fucking quit!! you're killin me here!!!

[seabeyond]

ya an even if you can recite # and expiration date

confirming name address and valid liscence, so, cause the law say, you gotta have liscence with you at all times. to forget reason, taser the son of a .......

ok may be over board

[AX10]

17. This is a routine traffic stop, their is NO NEED for using a taser...

on a person at a routine traffic stop. It's may be seen as a form of torture. The Neocon's would love to have a police state in which everyone who just slightly disagrees with the authorities is punished/tortured.

God Bless America. Let us NOT support these brutal methods that our forefathers fought to free this nation from!

www.deanforamerica.org

[seabeyond]

22. their is NO NEED for using a taser..."

better start embracing it, cause they can do it anytime for any reason they feel justified. and their bosses will support them. you think just cause you say it shouldnt happen, it wont. it is happening dude/dudette. how many times will convince you. the taser is the new fun toy for a cop

[AX10]

29. What can be done to correct this problem? Anything?

Or are police going to become the "new brown shirts"?

:shrug:

This is discouraging.

:-( :-( :-( :-(

[seabeyond]

38. 43 year old and 97 year old woman like me

getting tasered, cuffed and ass kicked until people start getting bothered. we arent gong to think much if it is a black, that is for sure. we have proven we dont care, black, poor, mexican, for decades. but it is going to be people like me getting the shit kicked out of us, that may challenge sme people back to sense. i will see what i can do, lol lol

now, this, is full of sarcasm

i keep my mouth shut on nothing. people would like me to keep mouth shut. i think it is too important so i refuse to shut my mouth. every infraction, every injustice i speak up. and my sons, the next generation, they get the responsibility and obligation in this, regardless how embarrassing

[AX10]

45. I can't support the police if this is the case. If they want to be....

little dicators than they cannot be trusted.

[seabeyond]

46. i am disappointed myself. i dont like it either

they need our respect, yet they too have to earn it. they want our support, but they dont get it cause they can beat me up. i am sad to see this too. but no i dont trust policemen. and i dont tell my boys to trust police officers. i tell them to be wary. not a good thing to teach children. how many years do you think poor and black families have been teaching their sons to be wary of the police. we white people just get to experience a little of the same now.

[AX10]

53. I know of many African Americans who have had troubles with the cops.

due to their skin color. Our only hope is some person with time and a TON of money who can go to court and challenge these "militaristic actions" as a violation of the U.S Constitution.

[seabeyond]

58. all these people in the handful of threads

on law enforcement are the only way. and as long as they allow the line of what is acceptable to continually move to more and more oppression, that is what "we the people" will create for all of us.

that is why i say, you dont like smoking, so be it, but protect my right to smoke. you dont like people not wearing seatbelts, fine, regardless protect those rights to not wear seatbelts. you dont want a credit check before employment, i will stand behnd you to say no. i dont like guns, i will stAND with my husband fighting for his right to own a gun.

we dont get to say no to the things we dont like and then be outraged when one of our things is taken from us.

we stand up for the drug dealers right to not be unfairly targeted. does that sound easy to do, no. and because it isnt an easy one, we have allowed it. now they are inching up the social scale and unfairly targeting, liberals? we allowed it. we are the ones to demand a stop to it. not someone else

who is going to stand up for me, when i glare at a cop for what i feel is unjust, and i am tasered. no one. because i should become submissive. i will stand up for you

[SlavesandBulldozers]

63. i'd stand up for you

you sound like good people.

[seabeyond]

74. thank you and that makes two. see already

we become empowered

[WillowTree]

14. Depends on the state.

Unless they've changed things fairly recently, in Illinois you have 24 hours to produce your license to avoid a fine.

[Xithras]

75. And the officer.

Here in Cali you're supposed to have one, but I've been stopped twice without mine on me (I have a bad habit of forgetting my wallet). In both cases I simply recited the number to the officer and was let off with a warning.

If you get a decent cop in a good mood, you'll just get a warning. If you get a dick with a chip on his shoulder, you may end up watching your car leave on a tow truck and have to twofoot it to your destination.

[Ron Green]

5. It's not really a privacy issue if you're operating on the public roads.

People think of the interior of their cars as private space, which it mostly is, but the car is moving in public space, and requires public permission (the license) to operate it.

[Ripley]

8. But I never got stopped for these types of "license checks" until

about a year ago here, and never in the other states I lived in. That's why I was wondering if this is new, on the increase and happens everywhere?

[Ron Green]

15. I wouldn't be surprised if it has to do with the "Homeland Security"

mindset, the fact that it's happening more and more to you. I think local law enforcement people tend to want to go with the flow, and if the new status quo is more license checks, then that'll be the trend.

[Ripley]

19. That makes stupid sense like everything else...

I mean c'mon, the 9/11 hijackers had valid driver's licenses right?

I just find no reason for them to do this. It's like them going door to door and asking me if I have valid American citizenship papers. Did I miss something and regular crimes are not going on? No. In fact in my neighborhood vandalism is on the rise (including to my home), yet the homeowners association says the Sheriff's dept. doesn't have enough manpower to respond to every call.

:wtf:

[Gormy Cuss]

21. Was it a driver's license or plate check?

From the behavior you described it sounds like they were looking for expired tags. Some places do this every so often just to rattle the cages of those who have been putting off registration renewal. Cops are always happy to take note of other violations at the same time, like driving without a license. As others said, as long as they stop everyone it's perfectly legal.

As for not having your license on you, in some states there's a 24 hour window to produce it before the fine takes effect. I don't know if all states do that.

It always feels creepy.

[Ripley]

25. Driver's license check.

Thankfully this didn't happen a couple of days ago, tho, because I hadn't put my new sticker on the vehicle yet, and they probably would have fined me.

Since police/sheriff's are struggling so much with under-funding (at least in my area) maybe that's all this is. A way to make money.

Just wondering how prevalent this is.

[Ravenseye]

23. it's happened as long as I can remmeber.

Back in the seventies there was a main road between the small village I lived in and the nearby town and they routinely had a stop there. We called it Checkpoint Charlie. They were there so frequently that people were just used to it. They checked for lisecences, whether people were drunk, see if your lights were on, your tires were ok, etc. It was more of a nuisance safety thing than anything else.

"you should get new tires."

"Your registration lapses at the end of the month, get it renewed"

"have a nice day"

I see no problem with stops as long as it doesn't tie up traffic.

[Ripley]

28. But does it catch criminals? Stop crime? Prevent road rage/death?

Or is it just a way to make money? In underfunded areas, I can see this as just a tool to meet their quota's.

Yes, I understand I need to carry my license, but when my local sheriff says he can't respond to a vandalism call because of underfunding, does he really need that many cars at an intersection snooping for the extra bucks? If so, that is a shame.

[Ravenseye]

36. I don't think the point was to catch criminals

Yes the checkpoint was up more frequently in the evenings and on weekends to help catch drunk drivers, but it was also there as sort of an ongoing safety inspection. There were times that if traffic started pilling up more than 2-3 cars they'd wave peopel through. They made a few comments on our cars, fixing this or that, checking this, buckle up, yadda yadda....never got a ticket. ONe time our registration had lapsed accidentally and they told us to go do it today. No ticket or anything, even if they could have.

As far as ways to make money I dont' know. That wasn't, but I guess I can see it, but it seems to me that a speed trap would be much more efficient. Just drop the speed limit somewhere with barely any warning from a 45 to a 25 and post cops there. That'll make more money and only costs one cop and a couple signs.

Did that happen with your local sheriff?

[Ripley]

39. How do you drop the speed limit at an intersection?

Yeah, there are some known speed traps around here, but this "license checking" thing just pops up anywhere, any day, any time. They were gone by the time I drove back through it in half an hour.

I understand what you are saying about your situation. But this was not a vehicle inspection, at all. And like I said in a different post here, I have personally experienced the "not enough manpower" excuse for investigating vandalism to my home. So I think it is a waste of manpower.

[TX-RAT]

48. In some ways, yes

It's amazing how many people had warrants for their arrest. Had drugs or alcohol in their vehicles. Picked up several stolen vehicles also.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

64. hey as long as the trains run on time right?

;)

[TX-RAT]

47. Some states have done it for years.

We did them when i was still with the SO.

[fob]

7. Several years back I had a hankerin' for some donuts and luckily

enough there was a 24 hr donut place a few blocks away. I jump in the car in my jammies and as I turn onto the main street I start seeing orange cones everywhere. In no time I'm in line in a "sobriety check-point" at 11pm in my jammies! There was a quick wave through but you can bet your sweet ass I took a different way home.

I don't see how it's constitutional either. What happened to probable cause? Is just getting in a car enough "probable cause" to stop everyone who heads that way?

[alarimer]

13. It's the police state

the police can do whatever the hell they want. Fuck the Constitution apparently.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

65. you went to get donuts? oh you were begging for a cop confrontation

werentcha?

:spank:

[fob]

76. I guess if I would have thought that through...

:toast:

[Fozzledick]

10. Catch 22

According to the Constitution, this is clearly illegal.

Unfortunately, there's a catch: They can do whatever they want as long as NO ONE STOPS THEM.

In a democracy, or even a republic under the rule of law, the judiciary would stop them, quickly and definitively. This is just one more example that the U.S. has become something else.

[merh]

11. The courts have held that public notice must be provided

before road blocks are established to check licenses, registration, etc.

:hi:

[AX10]

24. merh, I saw you on the thread last night regarding the African American...

women who was stopped in Florida (Palm Beach).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3788527&mesg_id=3788527

This women was out of line, but she posed no threat that would justify being assaulted by the officer. I think that the police should have tire locks on hand for these types of cases. I California, the police use them when someone has repeated offenses (traffic/parking) violations and they have not paid up their fines yet. Also, officer McNevin was in a Ford Mustang and that is not usually a police car. There have been cased in which people pose as cops in order to do harm to the innocent. Also, he would not identify who he was. In Connecticut, whenever there is a sobriety/seat belt/safety check point, the officers ALWAYS have their badge on with their name and i.d number.

Officer Ric McNevin needs to be fired for his crime.

[merh]

33. You'll get a kick out of the fact that one of the posters I was

debating with in that thread pmailed me and laughed at the concept of tire locks. Said that my suggesting same was silly and proved that I was lying about my experience. LOL

Did you get the chance to read the article about the arrest posted in the thread? Apparently her family has a history with the police (a relative has a suit pending against the department) and they claim to have been targets of police harassment and intimidation.

The woman was scared and trying to make sure someone in her family knew that the police had her. The officer violated department policy when he refused to give her his badge/unit number, there is approximately 40 secs missing from the video, the video is not properly dated, the officer never reads the lady her rights, he tased her twice and the whole thing lasted 10 minutes (that is not a long stop). On top of all that, the taser is a weapon and like all weapons, there should be an investigation when it is fired, to determine if it was a lawful firing or discharge. And now, it appears that Palm Beach is finally going to adopt a policy on the use of tasers.

All in all, it was a good thread, not a lot of flaming (okay, so I have some singed hairs on my arms) and a great deal of debate on the issues. I have bookmarked it for future reference.

AX10, Welcome to DU!!!! :hi:

I hope you find our little community entertaining, enlightening and challenging. Great minds and wits post here, I try to read their threads. Be careful, the place is addicting. :grouphug:

[AX10]

37. Thanks! Tire Locks do work. My brother in southers CA has seen..

them on cars. Yes, TIRE LOCKS work and are LESS lethal than a weapon! To be honest, it was very discouraging to see so many DUer's support the officer in this case. I have been observing DU for quite some time, it was this post that convinced me to join DU. I believe in law in order, but the government has NO right to give dictitorial powers to the authorities. After seeing that post, I just had to get into hear so that I could express the disproval at the loss of civil liberties.

I am not suprised this happened in Florida. Jebbyland, you know.

:puke:

Thank You for the nice welcome merh. I hope to see more of you!

http://www.draftwesleyclark.com/
www.deanforamerica.com

[SlavesandBulldozers]

66. yeah merh you did a good job in there

i usually tend to turn to mocking the tazer apologists because its easy, you keep a cool head.

see like this: tire locks? what the fuck fun are tire locks? do they have triggers and can I point it at somebody who bruised my ego?

[AX10]

70. I'll add you to my buddy list.

[SouthernDem2004]

68. Oh really? Have a link?

[forgethell]

32. Driving is

not a right, but a privilege. Just ask 'em.

[seabeyond]

44. being treated humanely isnt a right

it is a privilige,.....ask em, lol and a wink. yup

[catmandu57]

42. In my best german accent

Your papers please. They've been at this for quite a while now in Missouri, one never knows when you'll roll into a roadside check. Mostly they're strong arming for the insurance lobby, since we have mandatory coverage now.
which in itself is fine, but I've had three cars totaled by insured drivers that the companies have either weasled out of paying for, or forced an unacceptable settlement, take it or leave it.
It used to be that they needed a warrant to search, but that went out the window as well, so, it's best to be a good little sheeple and be legal and hand over your papers, if you don't want to find yourself on the wrong end of law enforcement.

[BiggJawn]

49. Implied Consent

By taking a driver's "License" from the State, you have implied that you're A-OK with surrendering certain civil rights under the 4th Ammendment.

This was originally done to close the loophole of people claiming that they were too drunk to consent to a field sobriety test, but hey, "9-11 changed EVERYTHING"....

[rocktivity]

50. He spent more time looking at your license plate than your license?

He didn't even ask to see the car's registration to see if it matched the license plate? That IS odd--they must have been looking for somebody.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
rocknation

[AX10]

52. A highway entrance that I use has two cop cars on it since February.

I think they are looking for someone or something important. Never once have they stopped my car. That type of search is not a problem. What I object to is police who use aggressive force against non violent people.

[LoneDriver]

51. In CA the courts decided

That since these stops are "random" that law enforcement does not need specific probable cause to stop an individual. Anyone has a chance of being stopped equally so it is not discrimination. That's the latest here although the have been banned in the past as failing the probable cause test.

[RaleighNCDUer]

59. Does that mean the cops could pin a city map on the wall and

throw darts at it, blindfolded, then go ransack whatever property the dart hit, demanding identification from whoever was on the premises? It's random, no discrimination at play.

It is a violation of the fourth amendment, and I don't care what the activist judges of the Supreme Court say -- the constitution disallows warrantless searches. No warrant, no search; no probable cause, no warrant.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

67. yes but dont you see. it's an EQUALLY DISTRIBUTED violation

of the 4th amendment, with no biases or impurities.

now drink the f*&king kool-aid!!!

[LoneDriver]

71. Yup, that's it exactly

nt

[Lars39]

54. If he had a drug dog with him, it is now legal for the law enforcer*

to walk around your vehicle to check it out, too.

*Remember when policemen used to be called peace officers?

[Lannes]

56. I could be wrong but..

I believe this issue was taken up at the Supreme Court and they were upheld.

[REP]

72. They Were Looking for Someone

"License check" is what they told you they were doing.

[Rex]

73. Papers! Lemme see your papers!

No, no, no, these are all wrong! Obviously you work for the enemy. Step out of the car please.

[Mizmoon]

77. Similar thing happened to me

I live in a quiet residential neighborhood. Huby and I ran out to Home Despot :) the other day and when we came back there was a police woman in front of our house stopping people. She stopped us, looked at our window stickers, and then said, "You're free to go."

I was pissed off bigtime. Who the fuck do these people think they are, stopping people who are just minding their own business, and then telling them they are "free to go". What were we a moment ago - your freaking prisoners?

I remember the 1970s. It was better then. It was not a police state yet.

[AX10]

78. Why where they infront of your house?

[Mizmoon]

79. Our street is a popular shortcut

from one main road to another, so it's a good place to stop cars. You can pull them over without disrupting the main roads.