Scamdy.com has been yanked down

[Kelvin Mace]

by Aplus.net for TOS violations.

[DrDebug]

1. Congratulations :)

[Horse with no Name]

2. Nice work Kelvin

Sometimes the good guys win.:applause:

[Bunny]

3. Good job. Did you find out for sure who it was?

[Kelvin Mace]

5. Don't have a name yet, but wheels are turning

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

116. Here's what WHOIS says.

Domain name: scamdy.com

Registrant:
   Jason Tonks (HCPKL) [e-mail]
   453
   washington,    dc    27443
   United States
   Phone: [phone]

Administrative Contact:
   Jason Tonks (FKNFF) [e-mail]
   453
   washington,    dc    27650
   United States
   Phone: [phone]

Technical Contact:
   Jason Tonks (HCPKL) [e-mail]
   453
   washington,    dc    27443
   United States
   Phone: [phone]

Billing Contact:
   Jason Tonks (5HWPL) [e-mail]
   453
   Washington,    dc    27443
   United States
   Phone: [phone]

Record last updated on 2005-06-04 00:00:00
Record created on 2005-06-02 00:00:00
Record expires on 2006-06-03 00:00:00

Domain servers in listed order:
   ns1.abac.com   216.55.128.4
   ns2.abac.com

Registration Service Provider: AplusNet(APRO)
   [e-mail]

   http://www.aplus.net

Registrar: NAMES4EVER, http://www.names4ever.com

[Kelvin Mace]

118. They changed it shortly after I blew the whistle on them

They realized that using my name broke the law big time. Tonks appears fake to, especially since I have cat by that name here at the office.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

120. They originally registered the domain in YOUR name?

Or am I missing something?

[Kelvin Mace]

121. Yep!

The idea was to frame me.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

122. That's SO criminal it isn't even funny.

Go medieval on their asses. Please. :evilgrin:

[Kelvin Mace]

126. Yeah, I thought so too!

[PsyOpsRunsOurCountry]

153. This is INTERNET COINTELPRO. False-flag ops are on old tactic.

Everything the spooks and dirty tricksters used in the last 60 years against the American Left is being used on the internet.

[benburch]

169. And this was done by a real GOP Trickster.

And it stinks to high heaven.

[Mark Williams]

4. Sorry but,

I'm a little new around here. What was the problem with Scamdy.com?

[CatWoman]

6. I'll find the link for you

[Kelvin Mace]

7. Read this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3783013

[Mark Williams]

13. Thanks for the link (n/t)

[Maraya1969]

73. I think the scamdy thing was a site "someone" put up to try

and make Andy Stevenson look like he was taking money from people Andy is a long standing member of DU and had cancer and needed money for his surgery. People at DU raised money for him. Whoever set up the site was just trying to make Andy and DU bad.

Correct me anyone if I'm wrong

[Kelvin Mace]

79. You are mostly correct

They also wanted to make it look like I was behind the site in order to sow further discord at DU. The registered the site using my name and address.

[CatWoman]

87. SUE THE BASTARDS

:grr:

[Maraya1969]

144. The is just so "Repulican" of them!

Fraud Fraud and more Fraud. They just can't live without it.

[housewolf]

8. Yaayy! congratulations!

Glad you got such fast action.

[Cooley Hurd]

9. Nice work, DUers!

:thumbsup:

[Mr.Green93]

14. Well done

Can we take out some other sites?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benburch]

20. I expect that both will have their servers seized in the next few weeks.

There are many people taking legal action.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benburch]

43. 100% of everything there has been archived.

Have no fear.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

58. I gave the mods and admins there every op to turn this around.

I'm not clear on what happened, but it seemed as though at least two were interested in stopping the craziness.

[benburch]

64. If anything happens in the next few hours, email me...

I'm off to Wrigley Field for a Cubs Game. (A friend was not using his season tickets tonight.)

[EFerrari]

72. Take your mitt!

:)

[benburch]

82. Yep!

Seats are in foul ball country...

[EFerrari]

92. :jealous smilie here: n/t

[CatWoman]

59. I've been trying to get in, too

I wouldn't be surprised, tho.

[goodboy]

63. I noticed that too! (nt)

[Kelvin Mace]

80. Idiots!

Scrubbing doesn't help. We haven't been sitting on our hands while this has been going on.

You'd think they'd realize the net has a long memory.

[Eloriel]

74. WooHOOOOOOO!

Bad things can happen when you go tooooooo fucking far.

My mother always told me: Don't DO things you're ashamed of (implied: or would be if someone found out).

[redqueen]

95. Can you say CRIMINAL COWARDS?

I knew that you could.

:7

[Kelvin Mace]

106. My mob says "hi" to your mob

[CatWoman]

127. ah, but my mob is part of the DU "elite"

:D

[MissWaverly]

108. Hooray for everybody who brought this about

This has been some awful stuff printed about me that bears not the
remotest bit of truth in it, I was glad to help Andy and I am glad that
this awful echo chamber has been silenced.

Miss Waverly :D

[Walt Starr]

25. There's certainly enough evidence to demonstrate support of

what was done. If nothing else, both sites have civil liability.

[Kelvin Mace]

26. Agreed

trick now is to find a lawyer. <s>

[benburch]

27. Ask in a topic by itself in the GD forum.

Like "Lawyer needed to sue Right Wing Sites on Fee-Contingent Basis."

I bet you will find more than one!

[EFerrari]

46. I'd ask merh. She's connected.

:)

And it would be good to go in with someone who has been vetted.

[merh]

99. Connected to what?

:freak: I'm just an innocent by-stander, a cheerleader if you will.

Okay, so I do swing a golf club, not a baseball bat as accused, a golf club, but only to keep my arms limber when I have that rare chance to play the game. :freak:

:freak:

[EFerrari]

101. LOL!

Have you checked your connections lately?!

:silly:

[merh]

103. Why are they showing?

:eyes:

[johnaries]

65. What about OldLeftyLawer?

If not his field, I'll bet he knows someone.

[Stephanie]

148. not likely

judging from his previous replies regarding this problem.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goodboy]

100. `see you`` is back online...FWIW...(nt)

[Kelvin Mace]

102. Oh, darn. I guess that

they are through scrubbing.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

124. I like to call them the Sphincter

Since "cu" in Portuguese is a vulgar slang thereof.

[PsyOpsRunsOurCountry]

154. Great frame word!! Sphincter, Inc.- "We squeeze out the bs at you."n/t

or "We're the assholes that make all this shit."

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goodboy]

31. Here's another site where they're defaming us...specifically

Andy, Will, sfexpat, me, etc:


http://mistymemory.forumsplace.com/index.html

[katinmn]

61. Ha, currently 15 "guests" are checking it out.

[NC Beach Girl]

62. interesting...but

is defaming against the forumsplace.com TOS?

The andyscam site was specifically violating the TOS of the company that was hosting them (they forbid hosting a site that defames anyone). Each host would have a different TOS, although almost all of them prohibit registering a domain with them under false information.

You can't assume that all sites that defame people can be shut down...you have to investigate the policies/terms of service of each host. It's easy enough to find out and just as easy to send a helpful email to point it out if you find a site that is violating the TOS. :)

[benburch]

147. I would encourage you to go send off a TOS violation to forumsplace nt

[tsuki]

104. How do you take a screen shot? eoq

[Kelvin Mace]

107. There are a couple of way you can do things

If you hit the key, you copy the screen to a memory buffer, which you can then paste to a graphics program.

Far simpler to use your browsers ile save feature and save as web pages. This saves everything on the screen and copies the graphics as well. You can later recreate the page.

[tsuki]

113. Thanks.

[sendero]

129. Or if you have the space...

.... and the bandwidth, you can use a free program like HTTRACK and take a snapshot of the whole site :)

[Craig3410]

143. I looked at it for 10 seconds,

then I left. I coudn't stay much longer.

:vomit:

[FreedomAngel82]

10. Good news

As it should be. Simply disgusting.

[Just Me]

11. AWESOME!!!! Hope you pin down the Mo-Fos who created it!!!

:yourock:

[Jack Rabbit]

12. Congratulations, Kevin

Good grief, those guys were low. They'd have to look up to a snake.

[King Coal]

16. TOS ?

[Janice325]

17. Ooh, ooh, I know that one!!!

Raising hand, "TOS" means "Terms of Service."
Great work Kelvin and the rest of you guys who were able to do something.

[Kelvin Mace]

19. Original, AOL if I recall

Getting "TOS'ed" meant banned for a "terms of service" violation.

In this case, about half a dozen violations.

[Jack Rabbit]

21. That's quite a few considering they were only up since Saturday nite

When were they taken down? Yesterday or this morning?

[Kelvin Mace]

23. Best guess

this morning.

[benburch]

30. They were still around 10 PM-ish.

I accessed them through the Guardster.com anonymization service and they were still there then.

[greatauntoftriplets]

18. My heart bleeds.....

Nice work!

:thumbsup:

[NoPasaran]

22. I used to think of these people as human garbage

But lately they've shown that they can only aspire to one day being elevated to the status of garbage.

[meganmonkey]

24. Good news

but what will I do now while I :popcorn: ?

Unbelievable that they created it in the first place.

[goodboy]

28. That's a great first step. Luckily I saved all the pages.

[EFerrari]

42. Well done! n/t

[understandinglife]

44. Most excellent. (nt)

Peace.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us - We have all the evidence of mendacity and illegal war-making we need to indict and prosecute Bush, Blair and every other neoconster scum-bag on the planet having any involvement in the Bush's illegal war on Iraq and all the torture and other atrocities that have been committed since August 2002.

[paula777]

29. Bev Harris is a freeper? OMFG

[Kelvin Mace]

32. Yep, for the last two years

[benburch]

33. And we all give her money.

What saps we can be!

[EFerrari]

36. Things happen for a reason.

There are progressive groups who are becoming aware of this situation and who are reconsidering their invitations. It isn't appropriate to say more, but that little two year marriage is having real consequences right now, fyi.

[paula777]

50. I just went to the blackbox website and her name is still all over it

Why do you think she's a freeper? Is blackboxvoting.org a scam?

[EFerrari]

53. Ms. Harris has been a member at FR for two years. n/t

[paula777]

37. But ... blackboxvoting.org - was she EVEN with them? Did she lie about

that, or is that organization fake as well?

[Kelvin Mace]

76. *.org

was her site, her organization.

I run the .com site, not affiliated with her.

[SmokingJacket]

134. She claims to be apolitical...

so she can consort with anyone who strokes her ego.

Or gives her money.




on edit: she is a current poster on FR, hellbent on defaming Andy.

[Junkdrawer]

57. Her recent posts there seem quite defensive - not typical freeper fare...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/user-posts?name=BevHarris

Are there any older posts which are different? :shrug:

[EFerrari]

68. Let's not turn this into a flamewar, okay? n/t

[katinmn]

71. The Tumor

just shaking my head.

[SRSU]

88. How can that be?

If she was there two years ago surely someone would have noticed? How did she cover the membership up?

[Kelvin Mace]

93. Hey, we only go by her registration dates

She has defended freepers on her site in the past and even claimed Bush was a supporter and had ordered her book:

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/bushbought.htm

(This is a cached copy. Bev routinely scrubs embarrasing posts from her site. That's OK, it's why we keep copies.)

[SRSU]

96. Oh I believe you

I'm just literally asking how it went unnoticed? You would think someone would have picked up on her registration.

[Kelvin Mace]

97. I think she registered to monitor

posts about herself, but did not post herself, if that makes sense. Later, when DU kicked her off, she went there and started egging on the brainless rabble to attack Andy.

[FizzFuzz]

119. I watched some of the blackbox fiasco here

what I don't get is what was she doing coming on like an agent for honest elections? I think this is what confuses me the most. and I'm completely unschooled in the details of who here was involved in working on that cause with her before she "went insane" or whatever it was that happened. Maybe I'd understand it better if I had followed the situation more closely. But then if I had, I might have sent her money too......

I just find it confusing, who she is and how she was fooling people. I mean, why go so public about the terrors of electronic proof-less voting when that IS a real threat to the country. Wouldn't revealing it threaten the Freeper Cheating Agenda?

As for the disgusting, reprehensible sc**dy bullshit, well that doesn't surprise me in terms of what psychopaths do. I had a look at that so-called "site" and wanted to gag. And I don't know Andy personally at all. Doesn't matter, these sick rejects ... I have no words.

[EFerrari]

34. Good work guys.

I'm sorry you had to go to that trouble.

[deadparrot]

35. Way to go.

Serves them right. What a sick, hateful group of people.

[johnaries]

38. I noticed they were using actual screen prints of DU and emailed

Skinner. I'm certain that's a Copyright violation. I hoped that helped! :hi:

[benburch]

39. Probably it is...

But that would be really hard to enforce.

We're not the RIAA or MPAA.

[Kelvin Mace]

77. Yes, important so they could take them out of context

They have excluded all mention of later proof which shows Andy was legit.

[Coexist]

40. and the good news just keeps coming lately!

[Pithlet]

45. Great! What does TOS stand for?

I'm glad that website was taken down.

[deadparrot]

47. Terms of service, I think. nt

[Pithlet]

48. Thanks! n/t

[Dee625]

49. Good job!

I've been watching this stuff from the sidelines like a train wreck.
The level to which they've gone is appaling. Hang in there all of you.

[Zhade]

51. Sweet.

Fuck all those liars.

[DistressedAmerican]

52. EXCELLENT NEWS! Great Work!

Sickening Pigs!

[Sparkle]

54. Good against evil triumps!

[Sparkle]

55. delete

[roguevalley]

60. The freaksters at misty_memory

are having a field day with this and they have all the documents (which is a violation of the law having someone's private medical records isn't it) stored here:

http://photobucket.com/albums/y210/Misty_Memory/?

[goodboy]

67. Yeah, well they're on borrowed time also. (nt)

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jane Austin]

83. How on earth

did they get those documents?

[Kelvin Mace]

86. Actually, some were posted

when the allegation of fraud were first made in order to prove Andy was telling the truth.

The mentally retarded plant life over there fancied themselves Columbo and began to "prove" the docs were "fake".

They can't get in trouble for those docs, because they were posted by our side (unless they got their hands on something we didn't post).

[northzax]

90. not if you posted it publically in the first place

once a patient chooses to waive HIPAA privacy rules for their own purposes, that information is in the public domain.

[Generic Other]

146. Empty now

:shrug:

[MrScorpio]

66. Justice is yours, sayeth the Kev

Booyakka!

[sleipnir]

70. Flame me, but I think these kinds of posts only fuel the fire

And, yes, by responding I am a hypocrite of my own logic. So sue me. I understand the hell you've been through with FR, but IMO, it's only fueling the flames of hatred and will entice them even more. Please understand that I'm thrilled you've got the site down, but perhaps IM's?

I think I'm responding to the influx of posts dealing with FR and their actions over there in GD. To be quite honest, I could give two flying fucks what happens at that site. Perhaps GD isn't the place for these types of "gossip" posts, I believe that's what the Lounge is for.

I'm not trying to directly imply that your struggles against an illegal site aren't worthy of discussion, but these "scamdy" discussions are barely above gossip, IMO and those types of posts are more than welcomed by me in the Lounge, where I'm happy to read about the foibles and failures of those on the "other side."

I guess, my beef is that these interactions with FR are taking place in GD and I don't think that's useful to our cause or appropriate.

Nonetheless, good work getting the site down! Please only take this post as some honest criticism to help us all.

[EFerrari]

75. Thanks, sleipnir. You may be right. n/t

[Eloriel]

84. Yeah, s/he could be right --

BUT:

Exactly what they want (or would be happy if not ecstatic about) is curtailing our conversations, manipulating our conversations (or getting us to do it ourselves) in whatever way they can to impede our conversations. This isn't the French Underground c. 1944, ya know? I'm flat against censoring my own speech on the basis of what the other side thinks or would do about it, other than in fairly extraordinary circumstances.

[EFerrari]

89. Sure. Maybe this isn't so much about censorship as it is about

staying on task, on tasks we choose.

Frankly, if naming me and posting snapshots and going into logical quagmires amuses someone, fine. There are more serious issues involved here, and we're handling it pretty well.

But I sure would like us to be able to keep our priorities our own, not just reacting to adolescent cR@p. We agree on this one, Eloriel.

[sleipnir]

98. They will nver hinder important coversations.

FR doesn't have the strength or the ability to stop our important discussions of voter fraud, the DSM, Galloway or how Cheney has 47 illegitimate children (well, maybe not the latter.)

Again, by replying to this statement count me in again in the hypocrisy camp, but I think that these discussions of "scamdy" and other pseudo-gossip only bump another, possibly relevant thread from Page 1 on GD. Perhaps that post was quite important and was reaching a critical mass on the discussion, but was removed from Page 1 and thus out the minds of 90% of DU. All because we continue to have threads that discuss issues that really don't at all fit into the bounds of the GD forum.

Perhaps by us perpetrating these gossips from FR, we are in fact curtailing our own conversations, by allowing the bottom feeders at FR to dictate our dialogue.

[EFerrari]

105. I can in no way agree that this conversation is trivial or "gossip".

Should it be in GD? That is a different question and one we should think about, for sure.

It's a good thing to use resources wisely.

[PsyOpsRunsOurCountry]

157. No, people need to know the tactics of Info War, especially internet-style

I think Democrats/progressives/liberals/du-ers are more trusting than the more military minded who oppose us. We DO need to be stronger on 'defense.' Defending ourselves against manipulations.

We who want peace and justice need to better address the military psy-ops tactics used to keep us divided and dominated.

That's why I chose my username. To educate the well-intentioned to be more effective.

[Kelvin Mace]

78. Thanks!

the point of my post was to let folks know the site was pulled.

[EFerrari]

81. And that's something that we needed to know.

Maybe at some point, we can figure out how to do a "lessons learned" thread that can be useful and constructive for DU and DUers in several directions.

Because this won't be the last time we're attacked for being an effective community.

Good work, David.

[Pacifist Patriot]

85. I understand what you are saying, but...

I have been curious about the outcome and wouldn't be on anyone's radar for IMing developments. It is certainly an inflammatory topic, but it's also helpful by reminding us to keep an eye out for unexpected forms of attack.

On the other hand, I completely agree with you with respect to posting links to FR. From what I've seen it usually serves little purpose than to get people's gander up.

[MissWaverly]

111. I understand your objectivity

But their personal comments about me were beyond malicious and disgusting, which I deeply resent, all I did was try and help someone
who was seriously ill.

Miss Waverly

[merh]

123. Miss Waverly

I've been meaning to offer you a hug for all you did for Andy and a hug for being subjected to the hate of these vermon, but two just ain't enough!

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:
:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:
:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:


You have been in my prayers! :loveya:

I am so grateful you are a part of DU. :pals:

[MissWaverly]

141. Thank you

A big hug from Baltimore! Thanks for the prayers, please send a few Andy's way right now. He needs all the frequent prayer miles he can get.

Miss Waverly

[merh]

142. You know that I am

Take care of yourself and don't let the nastiness bother you. Envy is such a vile sin. :hug:

[tsuki]

112. sleipnir, I understand your fears about only fueling the flames of

hatred. Freeper discussion post are usually as ignorant as they are boring. But this site was different.

I think a lot can be gained from exposing those behind scamdy. In my industry, which is nation-wide, I can usually find out what I need to know from someone else in my industry. About a potential client, product, manufacturer or rep. As large as my industry is, in reality, it is small.

I think this is the reality of all "industries." Even if nothing comes of this, using a false name, telephone number to create a slanderous site, word will get around the hosting sites on who to avoid, or who to watch for TOS violations.

All you have is your good name. Once it's gone, you are forever labeled. I've seen businesses go under for less.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

114. It may entice them more, but it also lets them know we mean business

when they fuck with us and I think that is worthy of their attention.

[Stephanie]

149. We have to shine the light on them

If they get away with thier evil, vindictive crimes in the dark, all is lost. Shine the light. Make them face what they have done. It's reprehensible. They know it. They would never do it in the light of day. Why else do they do it anonymously (or, so they think).

These heartless, brutal attacks are emblematic of what's going on in this country. We have to shine the light on their vile deeds. Show the world. If we don't, they get away with it, and then it escalates.

And that lesson applies in the broader context.

[Cleita]

109. Good work. That site was juvenile

and disgusting. It shows the present RW mindset of kicking the weak and helpless when they are down. It's the only way they can feel important and it's a very cowardly way.

[Boredtodeath]

110. Good work, Kelvin

Mission accomplished.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

115. Good job, David

As I said elsewhere, it's good to let these neanderfucks know we mean business when they fuck with us or one of our own.

[Merope215]

117. Nicely done!

If only our national leaders would get as tough on lying scum as you did. Good work. :toast:

[merh]

125. Good job.

If we could just make them go away.

:shrug:

[RetroLounge]

128. Good Job Kelvin!

:yourock:

RL

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

130. Apparently it's back up..time to start over

[clovis29]

137. That is so sad

What happened? It looked like they violated the TOS when they lied and changed the owner name as well as attacking Andy.

[Kelvin Mace]

139. Apparently

Lying on your regsitration info is not good enough.

[Kelvin Mace]

138. Yeah, they pulled the forums and more obviously defamatory

stuff and got it back up.

I am on it tomorrow to get it pulled right back down.

[beet juice]

140. Wait, what happened?

I can't believe that site is back online.

I'm glad you saved everything. What stuff did they pull or delete from the forum part?

(Not that it matters since you have it, lol!)

[symbolman]

151. Isn't there some authority you can contact

about identity theft - I mean like Homeland Security - these hateful f*cks could make threats using your name, etc..

How about the FBI or some other Governmental office.

Hey, there's a thread about Animal Activists and how they are charged with (by the DA in that county) with Interstate STALKING - a fine of $250,000 AND/OR 3 years in JAIL..

They were harrassing employees of a company and if anyone knows the name of your cat on your premises then it's pretty obvious above and beyond the ID theft that they are stalking you, and it's an INSIDE job..

I'll try to find that thread, they are being prosecuted as TERRORISTS!

Sure would be nice to have these clowns have a DA prosecute them in the same manner.. start with a Cease and Desist with the server, inform them that you could subpoena records or have the State DA do it..

Also call the Attorney General's office in the offending county, you would be surprised at what they can do, and QUICK.

And then publish my book, please? :) (I'll make you some flashes - just a lot going on, obviously with you too)..

this totally sucks and I can see where it leads, right back to a certain lying fraudulant ex DU'r who's been busted on so many sites I can't even count them..

Go get'em Kelvin, use the MACE on them lol!

[Kelvin Mace]

156. Working on it

All I can tell you. <s>

[VOX]

131. Way to go, Kelvin! Good riddance to very bad rubbish! n/t

[EFerrari]

132. So, they got the site back up. What an accomplishment

If I had my wish, this would be it.

To let them continue to do exactly what they're doing. Slandering honest people and trying to get attention, like 2 year olds, by doing that.

We have better things to do, as any casual glance at our forums will tell us.

I'm so done with this.

Beth

[LittleClarkie]

135. I'll just go refresh their site a bunch of times to feel better

and then I'll be done too.

[smartvoter]

136. FWIW: They look like the most pathetic group on the planet. nt

[seventythree]

145. Those who live in glass houses ....

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seventythree]

152. a long time Du'er emailed me

the gist of your message early this am. I will not address you by name out of respect for the deletion, but I will answer your question as to why I am here.

I thought this was a site for democrats -- if not for those who have dedicated decades to the party itself, at least for those who share our basic principals,like respect for free and open speech which examines, questions, seeks verification, and, ultimately, brings us closer to consensus, or at least, a greater respect for an opposing view.

Like anyone else who has spent decades working WITHIN the party, or any party, I have had occasion to "gut check." There have been candidates I contributed to and volunteered for who later I was ashamed to admit I even voted for. But never have I felt such a need to do the kind of "gut check" that this fiasco has thrust upon me.

Years ago, I had a wonderful political mentor who admonished me to work with someone who I knew in my gut was shady. I refused and it destroyed the mentorship. Not long after, Mr. Shady party chair was indicted, but not before he had done me some damage. Was my mentor right? Only if you believe the ends justify the means, and I have always avoided that slippery slope. Stupid? Maybe Ethical? Absolutely

If I can assist in helping to clear up an appearance of impropriety, I will. But once having tried, if it persists, I will disassociate myself from the actors because, generally, where there is smoke there is fire.

[demodonkey]

155. Knowing the truth, I find this very upsetting.

<<If I can assist in helping to clear up an appearance of impropriety, I will. But once having tried, if it persists, I will disassociate myself from the actors because, generally, where there is smoke there is fire.>>

Where there's smoke there's fire? WTF? Does that mean that thanks to the Swift Boaties blowing smoke last year we should all have abandoned Kerry as a candidate and jumped on the W Bandwagon??

I will NEVER disassociate myself from honest people I care about and believe in, no matter HOW they are slandered or libeled.

I was THERE on this one and I KNOW the truth. 'Nuff said.

[seventythree]

158. By all means share it

because that hasn't been done, yet.

[EFerrari]

159. That's simply untrue. And you better take your questions to

Skinner because he said any discussion of the so called "fraud" is over on DU.

[seventythree]

160. already tried that avenue

Just for the record -- I used the word "fiasco." Now, someone can either put the lid on the smudge pot and prove there is no fire beneath the billows of smoke, or others will continue to try to prove that there is. It's your choice -- and it always has been.

[EFerrari]

161. I choose to respect Skinner's decision. n/t

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demodonkey]

162. Indeed that HAS been done above and beyond the call of duty...

There has been more "proof" of this posted than for any other fundraiser I have ever worked on.

I certainly am not going to publicly post private details of what I observed in ANYbody's hospital room. And such details should not HAVE to be posted to prove need.

Continued calls for "proof" of this are, IMHO, just pumping the bellows to produce more smoke even though there is NO fire.

[Mizmoon]

164. .

[benburch]

165. Amen.

Nobody has a right to ANY more "proof".

In fact, this campaign exists for one reason only; A Republican Dirty Trick.

[EFerrari]

166. Ben, thanks for your help.

It is much appreciated.

Beth

[benburch]

167. No thanks needed. I really don't know how to do otherwise.

It is in my nature to oppose injustice and smash evildoers. I just lack the superhuman powers needed... ;-)

[benburch]

168. Seems to again be dead!

May it rot in hell.