Do any othrer DUer's think they may be getting manipulated?

[southern democrat]

By the Bush-Rove mainstream media propaganda machine?They go after all threats,but man it seems to me they are really zeroing in on Clark.And you know what,it appears to be doing the opposite of it's intent.The Clark backers seem more resolved than ever,he's getting valuable media coverage for free,been raising money at a pace of $250,000 dollars a day,surging in the polls,meet-up numbers growing,and after surfing around the net you can sense a sympathetic enviornment towards him.

The Bush-Rove mainstream media propaganda machine is powerfull. They nearly had me believing this crap.But when you step back,and look at the big picture.It gets crystal clear.Remember how they sold a bogus war,turned sediment agianst Saddam by linking him to 9/11 that was bogus also.Made Al Gore into a stiff pyscopathlogical liar that was bogus also.Painting this so-called recovery as great while more and more people are losing their jobs and obligations are harder to meet.How they try to downplay the defecit as a good thing because it a smaller amount of gdp now,which is also bogus.

I know I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer,but I know a rat when I see it.And this stuff has rat all over it .In the form of the Bush-Rove mainstream media propaganda machine.

[Langis]

1. It more the media

They are doing it for Bush/Rove. It really makes me sick. this election is going to be very messy

[MoonRiver]

2. Clark is in for a battle worse than those he's seen in combat.

The other candidates are too, but Clark is the one they're terrified of. He has a huge amount of support that seems to be growing exponentially every day. But Clark's very tough and he has a whole lot of friends who will go to the wall for him against MonkeyBoy and Rove. Interesting, isn't it, that the only Dem candidate the MSNBC poll mentioned was Clark. Other than that it was about Bush* and the 2004 election.

[dfong63]

3. i do feel manipulated - by the clark-worshippers

zillions of threads every day repeating the tired propaganda about how only a general can beat Bush (despite the general having no political experience), how the general is sooo much better looking than Bush, how the general is a "quick learner"; and smearing anyone who dares point out "the general's" deficiencies as an agent of Bush/Rove.

an interesting quote from Clark went generic where others defined their campaigns
``But Clark, despite his four-star résumé that is prompting some Democrats to swoon, failed his first vision test. It was telling that as the general's cap-in-the-ring speech drew to a close he talked about ''a future brightened by hope, courage and the determination that we can do better.'' That ''we can do better'' conceit is one of Dean's signature phrases. This borrowed fragment of rhetoric is a reminder that Clark has just four months before the Iowa caucuses to do better as a fledgling political candidate.''

[jonnyblitz]

6. me too. n/t

[southern democrat]

9. Do you believe all negitive things you read about the candidate you

support.I don't believe all the crap thats being slung at Dean,Kerry and the others.Nor do I put much creedence in the negitives of Clark.There is an 80-90% chance one of these 10 will be the nominee.We should not grow to hate any of them,for we may have vote for one of them to get shrub out.

[bobthedrummer]

17. There was a coup of some type 12-12-2000 IMHO

hence Clark phenomenon IMHO. Scary. Historically very scary.

[WilliamPitt]

20. Oh for Christ's sake

:eyes:

[Cocoa]

4. turned the "sediment" against Saddam

lol, that's even worse than "sheeple". :-)

Seriously, of course there's propaganda all over the place, but what specifically are you talking about?

If you're talking about here at DU, there are a few things that I've found not to be quite "organic" if you know what I mean. I would say the anti-Kerry stuff from way back, some of the pro-Clark stuff for a while, and some of the general dem-bashing stuff.

[southern democrat]

7. The correct word should have been sentiment.Sorry

[Mz Pip]

5. I was expecting attacks

but I don't think I was really prepared for such intensity this early. I certainly remember the number they did on McCain in the primaries and it was brutal.

Clark took an interesting strategy for his campaign by emphsiszing the need to put constructive and positive debate back into politics. I can only hope that the Rove machine will end up looking as petty and mean spirited as they are to the rest of the country. People say they are turned off by negative politics but then negative politics work. I can only hope that BushCo has crossed the line with their trashing of Clark.

And you are right about it working, even on us. Clark voted Republican in the past so he is now somehow suspect. We all loved it when Jeffords jumped ship. We thought he was terrific but we are somehow being manipulated to believe that Clark switching parties is somehow a bad thing. His words are being parsed, analyed, taken out of context in a manner that is misleading and disingenuous.

We'll see what happens. If Clark does well in the debates, I expect the attacks to intensify. THis will get uglier and ugiler.

MzPip
:dem:

[corgigrrl]

8. Jim Jeffords is not running for president as a Dem

Jim Jeffords jumped the GOP to deny them a majority in the Senate and became an Independent, eschewing whatever strength he had built for himself for his years of work within the GOP.

Clark announced as a Dem a few days before saying he was running for president as a Dem, calling on the resources of a party he's never done a day's work for to my knowledge. While he has fundraised for the GOP as late as 2001.

I too was all swoony for a Clark/Dean or Dean/Clark ticket, but I had not done any homework. From what I've done so far, I'll be one those taking back my former enthusiasm for Clark. His praise of Bush and Blair and our military "victory" and "liberation" of the Iraqi people in The London Times April 2003 was the icing on the cake.

[Mz Pip]

10. I'm not willing

to blow off Clark quite so soon. I guess this really just emphsiszes my lack of enthusiasm for any of the other candidates. If anything, Clark's recent entry into the Democratic Party and his ability to get such support in such a short amount of time makes me think that many people are more concerned about the direction of our country than long time party affiliation. It should be a wake up call to Democrats and Republicans alike.

Our primary isn't until March, all may be pretty much decided by then. I'll support whoever the Dem candidate is.

MzPip
:dem:

[FriscoMelt]

11. War College 101

Despite our Anti-Bush beliefs, it is vitally important we educate people on the brilliant deceptiveness of the Rove political propoganda machine, and without a doubt they're at it again. I caution every DU'er to not bite on the bait these guys will lay out. If Karl Rove viciously attacks your candidate now its because he wants Democrats to think that candidate has the Bush camp nervous. If he says your candidate is not a threat and would be exactly who the GOP would want as an opponent, Rove is banking on the idea you'd sooner send your mother up against Bush than the candidate in question.
Karl Rove would do anything to handpick the Democratic Nominee for President and the greatest weapon in his arsenal to accomplish his goal are the emotions of democrats like us. Be on guard.

[Pepperbelly]

12. You give Rove more credit than he deserves.

The little Nazi fuck screws the pooch regularly. If big media wasn't an accomplice, it would be even more apparent.

Witness Junior and the carrier landing. He stepped on his dick on that one but Rove approved it.

[TreasonousBastard]

13. Makes me a little crazy, too...

when I see Rove mentioned as the evil genius behind everything.

Everyone from Scaife to Pigboy to Ben Stein has a finger on the trigger trashing Dem candidates, and they all have their own agendas.

We could, I suppose, accept "Rove" as symbolic of the elephant's diverse, immense, and highly effective propaganda machine.

[grasswire]

14. they have to knock Clark out early..

...because the American people will listen to what he has to say about Bush more readily than they will listen to Dean (sorry, Deanies) or Kerry (sorry, Kerryians) or any of the others (sorry, others).

The press is giving him air and ink, and Americans will take note simply because 1) he's not a politico and 2) his four stars.

He can punch through a LOT of criticism.

That's why they have to knock him out ASAP.

[bloom]

15. My understanding

is that Dean and Kucinich (and Sharpton and...) are able to speak their own minds - while Clark (sorry, Clarkies) has to ask his advisor what he thinks.

I would rather NOT elect a puppet.

[zeemike]

16. You are going to be surprised then

When you find that the media is not going after Clark but instead is goading him into attacking Dean on things military.
Watch the first debate and I think you will see it. They will use Clark against Dean to insure that there is no clear winner in the primaries and give the DNC an excuse to go with a compromise candidate.
The ideal one for the Repugs would be a Lieberman/Clark . A weak insider for president and an obvious war man for VP to show there acceptance of the charge that Bush is good for defense of the country.

[catzies]

25. Welcome to DU, FriscoMelt!

I hope you like it here. I like your sig line; very intriguing!

:hi:

I agree with you 100% that Karl Rove would like nothing better than to "pick our nominee."

[Donna Zen]

18. Counterspin Central

HOW THE GOP WILL ATTACK CLARK: The campaign of rumor, innuendo and attacks against Wesley Clark will get extremely vicious. It will make the attacks on John McCain during the South Carolina GOP primary look tame in comparison.
For a rundown of the lines of attack, read this PeePer thread on Clark.

Among the attacks that will be launched on Clark are:

1) He's just a front for Hillary and Bill Clinton. Mostly, he will be portrayed <sub>as Hillary's Presidential stalking horse. There will be rumors flying that he would entertain asking her to join the ticket as his VP.

2) He's an unstable hothead who "almost started World War III." This line of attack has already been raised, ironically, by Katrina Vanden Heuvel on the pages of The Nation. That incident was less aggressive and hotheaded than it seemed. From the Washington Post:

"When the NATO allies realized, late on June 11, <1999> that the Russians were moving men toward Pristina, Gen. Wesley K. Clark, the NATO commander, speedily devised a plan to deploy NATO troops by helicopter to the Pristina airport, creating the possibility for the first NATO-Russia confrontation since the end of the Cold War. But British Gen. Michael Jackson, head of the peacekeeping force, argued that such a move would upset the delicate arrangements he had negotiated with Yugoslav officers on their withdrawal from Kosovo, and Clark's plan was dropped."
In context, it's explainable. Read the Post article about the Russian plan to deploy over 1000 troops into Kosovo to stake out a Russian Zone of influence, and to preempt NATO. Later, it turns out, British troops DID confront the Russians at the airport:

"A top British military official tried angry words and body language, but failed Sunday to persuade Russian soldiers to allow British troops to enter the airport in the capital of Kosovo.
Control of the Pristina airport has become an unexpectedly tense issue since early Saturday, when Russian troops moved into the city ahead of British peacekeepers. The Russians settled at the airport, which was supposed be the headquarters for the international peacekeeping operation.

-----snip-------
I also seem to remember the Clinton administration taking a ton of criticism from Congressional Republicans about letting the Russian take the Pristna airport unchallenged. I may be wrong, but I swear they were attacking Clinton on this very issue. If some enterprising soul wants to dig that up, it might be very helpful. If not, I will do so at a later time.

3) He was involved in the Waco disaster. Clark commanded the 1st Cavalry Division out of Fort Hood, Texas at the time of the Waco siege. Gun nuts and militia wackos will go bananas over this allegation.

4) They will repeat the smear perpetuated by George Will and the Weekly Standard that Wesley Clark lied about being contacted by the White House to hype the Iraq-9/11 connection.

5) They will try and downgrade his military service, which will be hard to do.

6) They will, probably in the "confederate" South bring up his Jewish ancestry.

7) He did not get along with his colleagues in the military. This is an effort to portray him as arrogant and aloof. Unable to work with people, etc. In other words, they will portray him as another Douglas MacArthur. Of course, to rightwingers, MacArthur was a hero.

It's unlikely that George W. Bush or most national Republicans will bring up some of these things directly. But you can bet that talk radio and the internet will be spreading this stuff like wildfire. I also wouldn't rule out "sympathetic" groups taking out radio adds, or doing push polls with these attacks.

The Clark campaign better damn well get ready to fight back against this stuff...hard. Ruthlessly, in fact. If I were Clark, I'd start hammering Bush for going AWOL. Believe it or not, while this is common knowledge to those who read this blog, most of the American public has no foggy clue about it. If Clark started hammering Bush on it, every day on the stump...and running campaign ads in key states, it would really get a lot more traction. .
But, he should hold back on it until Bush and Rove start unleashing the deluge of toxic waste I've listed here.

ADDENDUM: I should probably point out that I believe the Bush folks are, at this very moment, rifling through Gen. Clark's service record, NATO files, and any other scrap of paper that has anything to do with Wesley Clark.
Activity that, at one time, would have justified the appointment of an Independnet Counsel.

UPDATE: Sure enough, as Scoobie Davis discovered, Rush used many of these very attacks against Clark today.
And, of course, this drumbeat will go on day after day after day...without any balance. So much so, that Rush's listeners will actually believe all of this, even though 99% of it is complete bunk.

It will be repeated on every conservative radio show today, and for weeks afterward. Everytime Clark does something, it will be rehashed. Eventually, the rednecks and others who regularly listen to these jokers will assume its true, and start repeating it like a mantra.

By that time, it will be too late to rebut the charges in the traditional media.
That's how it works, folks.
That's why we have to fight back against this stuff now. And with both guns blazing

Hesiod // 9/17/2003 06:46:25 AM
Kvetch (0)
Back to the top.
______________________


Wow...I hope you get to read this everyone. Should I report our recent citings of these activities in liberal forums. Hmmmm?

http://www.counterspin.blogspot.com/2003_09_14_counterspin_archive.html#106379711994726685</sub>

[Democat]

19. Clark is being attacked with full force - many DUers are tricked

He is the one that Republicans fear most.

The Republicans are counting on the other Democratic candidates and their supporters to do a lot of their dirty work for them.

All they have to do is make up rumors, twist words, use "sources" and repeat phrases, and eventually some people will hear them.

Once they get a few "Clark invented the internet" things out there, then they can sit back and watch DUers and other Democratic candidates amplify them and spread them to the American people.

There are many here on DU who are falling right into the right wing trap. They listen to Fox and talk radio so they can find things to attack Clark over. What does that tell you? Who's winning when Democrats attack Democrats with right wing propaganda? Not our side.

[Pastiche423]

23. What is this

"falling right into the right wing trap" crap?

I do not have cable, thus do not watch Fox, nor do I listen to talk radio. I find what you just stated insulting. What? Democrats do not have brains? Democrats do not know how to do research on their own. Utter crap!

I din't have to sit back and wait on squat. I did my own research on clark and what I found out, I did not like!

Using the "you are using RW propaganda" ain't gonna work on real Democrats!

[catzies]

21. I agreed with the small number of DUers who said at the beg. of summer

That the endless back-and-forth over the field of Dem candidates at this stage by the party faithful was playing into Karl Rove's hands. He thinks our infighting leaves less energy to keep our eye on the ball, and he must be pleased at how well it's gone his way.

I have preferred to concentrate my time, attention and energy on the RELENTLESS DAILY EVIL this cabal has been able to perpetuate.

[Cooley Hurd]

22. Hmm... maybe Clark will have a much easier time w/ the media...

...than the other candidates, certainly easier than Al Gore had in 2000, because of his press affiliations as a war pundit. He certainly seemed quite chummy w/ Aaron Brown a few nights ago on Aaron's show.

Or maybe the whores will eat him alive and slander him...

[w4rma]

24. How much money would it take for you to sell out your country's future?

Don't answer that question, just ponder it as you think about how much someone else would take to sell out our country's future. Now think about the yearly income of blatant propagandists like Rush Limbough, Bill O'Reilly and Chris Mathews. Now, think about the yearly income of less blatant propagandists who pose as journalists.

Now think about how the deck is stacked against journalists who would blow whistles on wrongdoing in powerful places: Greg Palast, Sam and Robert Parry.

Think about the all the unethical and wrong things that our U.S. government military and CIA may or may not be doing in other countries right now. Think about how little it's talked about. Think about who profits. American's in general do not profit.

Think about how little of Bush's problems get talked about on TV. Think about how a Democrat gets scrutinized to the nth degree, especially the most ethical ones.