They desecreate our flag, we desecrate their holy scripture

[burythehatchet]

Interesting comparison, I thought. I wonder if there is any deeper meaning or whether our flag and the Qu-ran are simply the most potent symbols.

Thoughts?

[rooboy]

1. Important difference is that your flag represents your country.

Which country does the Qu'ran represent?

[burythehatchet]

4. I sort of see the distinction as the flag representing what you do,

while a scripture represents who you are

[Kelvin Mace]

Both sides place WAY

too much importance on symbols.

Cloth and paper is all they are to me. The higher ideals they may or may not represent stand apart from these objects. Destruction of the symbols does not harm the ideal unless the symbols are elevated to "religous" levels of importance.

I have said many times about flag burning laws that when a *symbol* of liberty becomes more important than *actual* liberty, the game is over except for the bloodshed.

[Ladyhawk]

15. I think way too many people place too much importance on symbols.

Still, the point is this: it was reckless and stupid of prison guards to desecrate the Quran. I mean, if something like that should get out, it would inflame the passions of all symbol-deifying Muslims against the folks who did it and cause riots, violence against Americans, all kinds of problems...whoops! Is that what happened? Now, whatcha gonna do, American Idiots? You're making enemies faster than you can kill them. Dumbass American shit-for-brains prison guards. Don't kill the messengers! They're just reporting on what you "morans" did.

I would hope that mostly-Muslim nations would eventually allow Quran burnings as an act of free speech, just as I would hope America would allow Bible burnings and American flag burnings. Me? I'm not personally into those types of expression, but they should be considered free speech. This type of freedom will be a long time coming to Muslim nations. Hopefully, the "better angels" of their natures will bring freedom to women and the non-religious. It's up to these nations' women and non-religious to stand up for themselves. Force from the outside doesn't accomplish shit.

I fear that the US is heading back into darkness where dissent will not be allowed. We need to protect the rights of free speech, even if the free speech upsets us.

However, free speech and what happened in that prison are two different things. "Free speech" is usually done by someone who isn't in power. "Abuse" is done by the person who is in power.

Just something to think about.

BTW, my mind is a little fuzzy today. Please excuse typos, etc.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Eat The Menu, Order The Meal.

Or as Steven Wright would say, "I have a map of the United States. It's actual size. One mile... equals one mile."

[Avalux]

2. Hmmm....

there was a very long thread on DU a few weeks back where some were trying to explain what the Quran means to Muslims. It is not merely a symbol - to them, it is holy, even moreso than the bible to Christians. I get it, but some people don't and never will.

Our flag is an extremely powerful American symbol but I would not compare it to the Quran.

[burythehatchet]

5. I did not mean to imply that they are comparable, merely

that there may be an underlying motivation for the two acts of desecration.

[Avalux]

8. Well -

there still is no comparison.

Americans did not riot in the streets and burn the Quran. What was done to the Quran was calculated by captors to intimidate and torture those held in prison.

[neweurope]

3. I'm convinced that the Koran is much, much more holy to

Muslims than the flag is to a US citizen. You have that flag literally everywhere. An inflation like that cannot be holy or express something holy. Also I think there is no comparison between a state - the way people organize their community and daily life - and a religion which is supposed to do something altogether different.

----------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Hobarticus]

6. They desecrate our flag but we're free...they're in prison and we piss on

their Koran.

One is from a position of protest, where no one gets hurt. The other is an abuse of power, in a situation where the other party is at their mercy.

Way different, to me.

[Richard Steele]

7. That's an excellent point, Hobarticus. n/m

[barb162]

9. If someone desecrate our bibles, do we declare jihad, holy war, etc

[CJCRANE]

11. Again the Bible does not represent America.

Muslims would not desecrate the Bible, they have some respect towards the Jewish & Christian holy books.

The Koran calls Jews and Christians "People of the Book" and says that they will go to heaven (or at least the good ones I guess).

[ET Awful]

14. Yet again, someone who does not understand that the way Muslims view

the Quran is vastly different than the way Christians view the Bible.

If someone desecrates a Bible, the typical Christian will look at the situation and say "what a loon, he's just condemned himself to hell," or something of the sort. Christians see the Bible as a book containing the words of God as produced by many men.

A Muslim on the other hand, sees the Quran as the actual words of Allah. The Quran is Allah speaking directly. In the mind of a devout Muslim, to desecrate the Quran is the same as desecrating Allah himself.

People need to understand these differences.

[barb162]

23. I think a lot of devout Christians look at their bibles as the actual

words of God just as devout Moslems look at their Koran. I think you are not understanding the issue raised.

[CJCRANE]

10. Simplistic.

There are many muslims who wouldn't identify with the "they" and many Americans with the "we" in your statement.

But if there are examples of muslims who have burnt the American flag in relation to the Quran desecration then it seems fairly obvious why (not that I agree with tit-for-tat protests).

They were American officials representing the American govt who desecrated the Quran, therefore the response would be one towards secular symbols of the USA. The Bible does not represent the USA, it represents all Christians therefore any sane muslim would not even think of desecrating the Bible.

Also Muslims call Christians (and Jews) "People of the Book" and generally respect their scriptures to a certain extent.

[ET Awful]

12. "They" (whoever that may be) burn the flag of 240 million people,

"we" (please don't include me in your "we") desecrate the holiest text of over a billion people, many of whome wouldn't have harbored ill will against the US, despite the many abuses over the years until they were informed that "we" had no respect for their religion whatsoever.

[burythehatchet]

17. relax...I didn't choose my words very carefully..I'm not part of the "we"

either, except insofar as this shit is done in my name.

[LittleClarkie]

13. In one way it doesn't hold up. What American has ever been tortured

by having to watch someone burn a flag.

If someone knows of a time in a past war, like WWII or Vietnam, where this was a tactic, let me know.

[ET Awful]

16. Even if it had been a tactic, the effect would hardly be the same.

I know of no American who views the flag as the direct word of God, in such a way that it permeates their entire existence.

[LittleClarkie]

20. I can imagine somebody being gungho American patriotic

more than they are Christian. But I think that would just piss off such a person more than it would "torture" them.

[CJCRANE]

22. Look at it another way -

if an American official desecrated the Torah (or another Jewish symbol), how would that individual Jewish prisoner feel? How would the Israeli govt react? How would Jews in general and the Jewish lobby groups react?

I think you can see it would probably be quite serious. (Although having said that, has anyone actually asked the Gitmo prisoner how he felt about having his holy book desecrated? We don't really know what his reaction was, or who he is, or what he's done).

[arcane1]

19. well, that would be somewhat more ok, on one condition:

if we desecrated the Quran's belonging ONLY to people who desecrated the flag

still not the same thing, but at least it would make some kind of sense. More so than defiling a random person's book because some other random person burned our flag

setting aside the fact that most flag-burners burn their OWN flags, not someone else's

[ComerPerro]

21. That's how I see it, however

Just as it is wrong for them to desecrate our flag in front of US POWs, its wrong for us to desecrate the Quran in front of our prisoners.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and I think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than those assholes.

Besides, what right does any American have to protest the desecration of a flag when our government has policies such as this? How can we honestly expect to hold people to standards that we won't even apply to ourselves?

[seabeyond]

24. well fuck, we are in their country, on their land

taking their money and oil and murdering their people and babies, creating a chaotic and dangerous enviroment for all of them,........

saying, we are friends to bring democracy and peace

to be in their country and mess with their qu'ran, has nothing to do with our flag. they are not trying to win us over. we are trying to win them over, gain their trust, create a working relationship