My nephew wants to join the ROTC and his mother is frantic.

[progressoid]

She's already lost one child to a rare illness and is desperate to protect this one.

He's a bright 19 year old, but he has no idea what he's getting into. Like most young adults, he is at a spiritual crossroads and is looking for meaning and excitement in life. He thinks he'll get that in the ROTC.

So DUers, I need some resources to help convince him to sit this out. He had a conversation with a Vietnam Vet who cleaned some of the rose off his glasses, but he still thinks he should sign up.

Can you help me out?

[Coexist]

1. who has the link to all those graphic photos from Iraq?

[unhappycamper]

48. links to show him

The coffin pictures are sad; there are now 1,677 families who are torn apart by their deaths. I've always maintained that the wounded are worse off. The second link is more powerful.

It took a Freedom Of Information Act to pry these
pictures out of our government:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/coffin_photos/dover/gallery.htm
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB152/index.htm

The following URL shows a few of our 12,000 wounded
and maimed soldiers. CAUTION- contains some VERY
graphic pictures:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/wounded/gallery.htm

The Civil Resistance Group of Eugene (OR) picketed outside the IRS center on April 15th. Follow the link provided to their web site. You will find many more pictures of the wounded.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=174x1855

To those who say showing pictures like this is 'not right': I submit you dishonor these brave men and women by ignoring their sacrifices.

Good luck!

[unhappycamper]

54. Interesting article on how we treat out injured vets.

http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-1/546/546_06_WalterReed.shtml

[Bridget Burke]

2. Do some research.

Find out what his obligations will be if he joins ROTC.

However, you cannot make this decision for him.

[progressoid]

7. "you cannot make this decision for him"

Boy, thats the truth. But he was surprised to find out that he could be called up at any time even after he resigns his commission.

[redqueen]

3. If he's 19, then I doubt there's much that can be said he hasn't heard.

He's an adult. It's not unlikely that any efforts to change his mind will only result in him digging his heels in about this decision.

[paula777]

4. I wish I could .... I could call him and BEG him not too. Maybe show him

some photos of the wounded soldiers - missing limbs and stuff. That may turn him off to the idea. Good luck. I would FREAK if my nephew said he was going to join.

[Hapameli]

5. Best places to start (this is my area right here)

http://www.notinourname.net/youth/

and the video at http://ustourofduty.org/

[progressoid]

11. Thanks

[Gman]

6. It's not like he's enlisting

its just ROTC. If he enlists, then she should freak out.

Some of the most fun I ever had was in JROTC in high school during the Viet Nam war. Among other things, several of us were suspended for refusing to remove our black arm bands we wore on our uniforms for the first Viet Nam Moratorium Day. We used ROTC as a daily venue to protest the Viet Nam War.

For the record, JROTC was mandatory at the high school I attended.

[progressoid]

As I understand it, he's signing up for an 11 year stint.

[AllegroRondo]

9. JROTC is different from ROTC

ROTC is a contract - they pay for your college, you have to serve in the military as an officer for so many years.

[Hapameli]

8. Check out Coalition Against Militarism in our Schools - Lots of info there

At the Memorial Day anti-war rally, a high school senior whose teachers were with this organization got a five minute standing ovation -- for changing her mind about enlisting. It was amazing and electric. She was the hero of the night, even more so than the C.O.'s that were there.

This is an organization we should all be helping out with our feet:

http://www.militaryfreeschools.org/

[progressoid]

19. Thanks!

[loveable liberal]

10. www.robert-fisk.com

If he can make it through the website looking at pictures of maimed, killed and injured civilians, maybe he belongs in the service.

[progressoid]

16. Thanks

[Pockets]

12. She should flat out forbid him...

If he has a father to forbid him that would be better. I think teenagers are likely to ignore wining from their parents, but are more likely to obey a direct order. Not reason necessary -- it's impossible to reason with a teenager because they ARE smarter.

[UncleSepp]

41. Forbidding a nineteen year old?

That's not too likely to work. Also, wouldn't it depend on the dynamics of their family whose order would be followed? It's a pretty big assumption that a father's going to be the one whose orders are more likely to be followed.

[flordehinojos]

13. i do wish you the best in trying to infuse wisdom into your nephew.

But, please remember that sometimes, the more we, the adults, oppose their (teen-aged, young adult minds) they more they set their minds, wants and goals on reaching what we oppose.

[Pockets]

21. Like the phrase "kids express what their parents supress"

I think it helps if parents draw a hard clear line.

[City Lights]

14. She should take him to visit the wounded at Walter Reed. n/t

[Texas_Kat]

15. Which branch of ROTC? Army, Air Force? Navy?

Is he planning on signing a contract?

If he's not accepting money from a service branch and not signing a contract, then ROTC is little more than a club.

For instance, the Corps of Cadets at Texas A&M is the epitome of ROTC. It graduates at least as many officers going into the military as the Service Academies like West Point each year.

BUT more than half of the ROTC students are D & C (Drills and Ceremonies) which means that they have NO military obligation. They participate ONLY while they are in college and only in university activities.

If this person does intend to sign a contract, it would also depend on what branch of service he signs with. Signing a contract with the Navy is different than signing with the Army. Also, if a draft happens, students in ROTC with contracts have always been exempt since the advanced training they are receiving directly benefits the service branch. The services view it as training officers and are reluctant to cut it short by drafting these future officers into non-com positions.

Tell his Mom not to be frantic. Find out a little more about the school's program. Signing up for ROTC is not necessarily signing up for military service.

[progressoid]

17. He wants to go into Military Intelligence!

The Vietnam Vet pointed out that was an oxymoron.

[Texas_Kat]

24. Which branch? There's Military Intelligence in every branch..

eom

[progressoid]

25. Oops, Army I believe

[Texas_Kat]

26. It makes a difference

Is he talking about signing a contract? or just joining the organization.... they are 2 different things

[progressoid]

27. Its an 11 year contract I think

But we convinced him to pore over the details. For instance he didn't realize he could be called up at any time even after the 11 years.

[RaleighNCDUer]

29. How's that work?

Four years college and seven years active duty?

[IrateCitizen]

30. I was an Army ROTC grad -- it's an 8-year committment...

... after commissioning. Either 8 yrs active reserve, or 4 yrs active plus 4 yrs IRR.

Of course, that all assumes that you are ALLOWED to resign your commission at the end of your time. As it is right now, many commanders are not accepting officer resignations. I know that is how it was in my reserve command -- our 2-star general said flat out he will not accept them. I was lucky to get out through a loophole.

Counting my time as a cadet, my stint with the military consumed 13 years of my life. And I use the word "consumed" consciously here.

[progressoid]

39. That sounds like his deal

He's already done a year of ROTC classes in college. 11 more would make 12 total.

[Texas_Kat]

40. I did see your post after I'd replied

Thanks for the info.

I am the Mom of a current Air Force ROTC scholarship student at Texas A&M. The rules are a little different. This kid started college with 22 credits from advance placement courses and is a 4.0 political science major -- his interest is policy, though, not politics.

Did I envision my son wanting to make the Air Force a career when he was little? No. Not in a million years.

Did I raise him to make his own choices and then live with the consequences? Yes. It was the best thing I could do for him.

Do I have confidence in his ability to make choices for himself? Absolutely.

Indentured servitude? Maybe .... but then we all accept obligations at some point in our lives.....

[Texas_Kat]

35. That doesn' sound quite right.

LIke I said before, contract students usually don't get called up out of school (though they are officially 'in' the military once the contract is signed).

I believe the term of service is 6 years, with a 5 year IRR (Individual Ready Reserve) component after that.

Military Intelligence work ranges from 'on the ground' special service ops to sitting at a computer all day.

Computer geeks --I use that term affectionately (but specifically) about people who are talented in that way -- are in high demand, but seldom see a battle. They generally do things like "run" the unmanned recon drones, work in communications and codes, do analyst's work and so forth.

Athletic types who go into military intelligence work often do the covert, high risk kinds of things you think of as 'spy work'. In the Army, military intelligence also does 'indigenous population' relationship-building.

Military Intelligence is a very broad area of 'specialization' -- not all of it hazardous.

[IrateCitizen]

36. See my above post for the facts -- I was an ROTC graduate. (nt)

[MadHound]

18. Offer the kid an alternative

When I was his age, I was feeling the twin pressures of civic duty and craving excitement. I had the example of Vietnam in the recent past, so I decided to avoid the military. Instead I joined the local volunteer firefighting unit. Got all the excitement I wanted, and then some, helped my fellow man, didn't have to kill anybody, and didn't face the prospect of being called back up in future years. It was an absolute blast, loads of fun, good stuff for even the most addicted adrenalin junky.

The only drawback is that it doesn't have a deal for paying for college like the military and ROTC does, but various local firefighting units do have scholarships and grants available if you do some research.

I would push this on him as an alternative to the military. No moral questions, when you are fighting fires and saving lives rather than taking them, you know that you are doing good. Besides, what other job lets you drive through town in a big ass truck at breakneck speeds with sirens blaring?

[Warpy]

20. Well, he's 19 and

some of us have to learn things the hard way. I did, although not in the military.

Some kids don't survive their 20s due to things like car accidents, drinking, and drugs. If he wants to risk his neck on a stupid war, it's his decision. His mother doesn't have to like it, and nobody in his right mind would expect her to.

If a survivor of Vietnam didn't convince him there's no glory in war, then he's just going to have to discover that for himself.

Mom needs to give him her blessing, take some of the fun out of it. Then she'll see if it's a true calling or just rebellion.

[Pockets]

22. I don't think the military will offer him life lessons

It will put his life on hold, then he'll learn life's lesson later, from what I've seen happen to others.

[Joe_VB]

23. Take him to a V.A. Hospital..............that will change his mind.

[Pockets]

28. About Military Intelligence

It's my understanding the military will groom him for intelligence only if he happens to score high on standardized tests, otherwise they will lure him in with totally false promises of making him M.I.

If he wants to go a similar route I would think that he should get a college education first then go in as an officer.

[IrateCitizen]

34. Ummmm.... the kid IS going in as an officer...

That's what ROTC is for. It's an officer training program. In fact, the majority of Army officers come from the ROTC program.

[noonwitch]

31. There is nothing wrong with a young person wanting to serve his country

I disagree with the war, but some kids do want to serve in the military, for honorable reasons. It may be hard for the family to see their son go off to a war that is not going "well", but it is his choice and it is an honorable one. It sounds as if you have all discussed this with him and he still wants to join up. Maybe ROTC will keep him in college for a few more years and out of active service until the war is done.

I have a slacker 19 year old cousin, who just got the most recent of his fast food jobs. He has a GED, but hasn't enrolled in college or any trade program. My sister and I keep telling him that if they reinstitute the draft, he's "Bush Bait". He has no intention of joining the military, but if he did, I would support his decision. In peacetime, a couple of years serving would do him some good and help him learn some self-discipline.

[IrateCitizen]

32. I was an Army ROTC graduate -- my thoughts...

First of all, it is still your nephew's decision. All you can his mother can do is to try and make certain he's going in with his eyes wide open, knowing all the facts.

One thing to impress on him is that time in the military is like indentured servitude. If you get in and decide you don't like it, YOU CANNOT GET OUT. Recently, a soldier who challenged stop-loss and lost saw his "time of enlistment" extended for another 25 years. If you are a commissioned officer, you will be told that you can resign your commission, but that is not guaranteed. For instance, in my Reserve command, our commanding general -- a 2-star -- said openly that he would not accept ANY officer resignations. There are only two terms I can think of that adequately describe this arrangement are indentured servitude and slavery.

The military reserves the right to ignore EVERYTHING in their contracts, and it is stated in the fine print on the contracts themselves. If your nephew doesn't mind having control over his own life, then the military could work for him. However, if he likes making his own decisions -- especially about matters of conscience -- then he might want to reconsider.

Here's a flyer put out by the group Citizen Soldier that might help. It's based on an enlistment contract, which is quite different from a cadet contract, but some of the points still carry over.
http://www.citizen-soldier.org/media/CS-Enlistment%20guide2005.pdf

Hope this helps, and I'll be thinking of you....

[progressoid]

38. Thank You

I get the feeling that he's sort of floundering about his future. I doubt he sees the big picture regarding the next decade+ of his life.

Who knows, maybe this is the perfect fit for him. His mother is just being a protective mother. The rest of us want to make sure he is completely aware of what he's getting into.

[TreasonousBastard]

33. He's not obligated to serve unless...

he stays in it for his junior year, unless some other contract was signed. That gives all of you two years to still work on him.

www.objector.org

www.nisbco.org

are two organizations I work with that have vast amounts of information.

I counsel these kids and their parents with varying degrees of success. Most of the time, I get them after they made the mistake and the kid joined, only to find out it wasn't like the recruiters made it out to be. Being a vet myself, I can come across with a little more credibility than many of the other pacifists in the movement.

As an officer, if he makes it through the full four years, he'll have some advantages, but his obligations will be much more intense. Whatever service he's in will own him, and he will find himself forced to make decisions that he can't conceive of now. His entire life, in and out of uniform, will be dictated by the service.

One question I always ask of the officer bait is "Are you comfortable with the idea of sending your charges into battle, knowing how many of them will die?"

That goes along with "Are you comfortable with sending your charges out to kill people you don't know for reasons you don't fully understand?"

I understand national service, and I understand defending the country,
but these kids have to understand that they are not necessarily defending the country by joining in any capacity, and that whatever they are told, the job is simply to be efficient at killing.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[pop goes the weasel]

37. Is he a good kid?

Is he an independent thinker? Is he rational? Does he avoid magic-thinking and herd mentality? Does he have a track record of standing up against peer pressure and questioning authority? Is he empathetic? Does he come to the aid of the underdog?

If the answer to all that is "yes," then give him your blessing. The military is not going to go away if good men and women don't participate in it, but it will become ever more corrupt without them. Without good men and women, there will be more torture, racism, and crusaderism.

Now, if he just wants to join ROTC because he's pumped up with teenage testosterone, that's a different story. You still can't stop him from joining, but you can plant seeds of future maturity. Then, when he joins anyways, because he will, you need to support him in developing all those traits that are needed for moral leadership. He's an adult now, and the use of his life belongs to him. Try to punish him for his decisions by withdrawing support, and all that will happen is that militaristic evangelists will step into the void. Support him, and he may turn out to be the guy who stops massacres and insures civilian safety.

[UncleSepp]

42. What about the Peace Corps or other civilian service?

There are other ways to serve, which will provide travel, excitement, adventure, and even tuition reimbursement. With the Peace Corps, though, you have to get your undergraduate degree first. There are other opportunities, though.

Also, if he does not accept college scholarship money, he can do the first two years of Army ROTC without signing a contract.

[progressoid]

44. Hey, he might just do that - thanks

[SouthernDem2004]

43. What is wrong with the military?

Why are the above posters so anti-military? Bush is the problem with Iraq, not the military. The U.S. needs a strong military. Do you people want to disband the military?

[earth mom]

45. If you have to ask that question...

maybe you're on the wrong message board. :shrug:

[MissMillie]

50. Democrats serve their country too

don't you think?

[SouthernDem2004]

51. I do not think Democrats are anti-military. /nt

[earth mom]

53. And I think the majority are.

War is not the answer.

[progressoid]

46. Nothing

In fact he's the kind of smart, level headed person they need. But his mother has already lost one child and wants to keep this one from harm.

edited to add:

Well, not nothing. We certainly need a standing military, but it has plenty of problems.

[IrateCitizen]

52. Why do we need a strong military?

Seriously. It's a point that gets put out there, that people believe in a "strong America", or that we "need" to have the biggest, baddest military in the world -- but just once, I would like it if someone could adequately tell me WHY we need a strong military.

I'd rather have a strong national infrastructure, a strong educational system, a strong system of volunteer networks -- than a "strong military".

[The Flaming Red Head]

62. They sure come in handy during natural disasters

hurricanes, earthquakes etc.

[IrateCitizen]

63. Those units hardly justify expenditures >$500 billion per year...

Sorry, but that argument is hardly a justification for a "strong military".

[unhappycamper]

56. Anti-military is not the issue.

Needless wars are. Please remind me why we invaded Iraq. And Viet Nam. Perhaps a slightly different direction is needed.

Have you ever heard of Smedley D. Butler? He was a Marine Corps Major General who won two Medals of Honor. In my book, that qualifies him to speak on the realities of war. Google him. Read a bit about his writing "War is a Racket."

I respectfully submit that we invaded a country that could not harm us. That's what I have a problem with. The wounds these soldiers suffer are unnecessary. The deaths are unnecessary. It took this country a generation to heal from Viet Nam. How long do you think it take to heal from Iraq?

RVN class of 67~68 - 198th Light Infantry Brigade, Chu Lai
RVN class of 70~71 - 25th Infantry Division, Cu Chi

[SouthernDem2004]

58. I am not arguing that. I agree with that. The problem is the current

administration and not the military.

[unhappycamper]

60. I disagree. The military has allowed itself to become a political

instrument. Look at Myers and Boykin. (google gen. boykin) How can Myers permit such a nutcase in a position of leadership? "I KNEW that my God was bigger than his," Lieutenant General William G. Boykin said of his Muslim opponent.

Look at religious fundamentalism being allowed at the service academies.

Where are their loyalties? If it's to the Constitution, they have pledged to protect us from all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. Boykin's allegience is to his god. I don't know how big my god is and if my god can defeat Boykin's god, so I'm worried. My liberties and rights are being stripped daily. Who's going to protect me? Myers? Boykin? One of their clones?

I doubt their masters would allow that.

We're not very far from sectarian violence in this country, and the military should not be the prime enabler.

[GreenPartyVoter]

47. Tell him to try the Peace Corps instead

[MissMillie]

49. My sons are in the Junior ROTC in high school

and let me tell you that it is a marvelous program.

The boys have learned leadership, team work, responsibility, and even manners and respect (well, they had the basics of that from me).

Now, that said, I know that my kids are under no obligation whatsoever to continue w/ any military training. I don't know what the deal is with college ROTC, but I would suggest that if he's expecting an ROTC scholarship, that will probably require him to spend some time in active duty when he finishes school.

If he can get in and participate without signing up for additional duty beyond college--I HIGHLY recommend the ROTC.

BTW: take a look at my son's championship (National Champions!) drill team/color guard!


and my boys w/ their girlfriends at the Military Ball

[Sabriel]

55. Try Teach for America

It'll fulfill that spiritual crossroads thing. How about Americorps? At least he won't end up flag-draped.

[unhappycamper]

57. The Gold Star Moms are going to DC on June 15th

Here's another good source of info. Link to thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3808745

[BikeWriter]

59. "Mothers Against the Draft" may be able to help, too.

http://www.mothersagainstthedraft.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

[The Flaming Red Head]

61. All of ours are joining the guard

It's the only way they can rebel against parents like us (my friends) and the recruiters are waiting around every corner and pulling them into their air conditioned offices and showing them DVDs about being snipers (way cool to a 17 or 18 year old, especially if Mom wouldn't even let you have a bebe gun) and giving them mouse pads and camouflage hats (made in China) and promising enlistment bonuses (15 thousand sounds like a lot to a poor kid) and as parents we're out numbered and once they're 18 there's nothing that you can do, thank god they're not making meth or hooked on crack, they're just toy soldiers, like lambs being led to the slaughter.