"You think that he would learn to bite his tongue"...

[southernleftylady]

the lady on CNN just said that about Dean and his speech last night...
biased???
naw...
:eyes:

[lala_rawraw]

1. who cares if Dean is biased, at least he is honest...

What like closet Ken M is not biased? Of course he is, but he is a lying sack of crap.

[liberal N proud]

2. It is CNN that is biased.

[Clark2008]

5. Ummm.... isn't Dean SUPPOSED to be biased...

and the news media not?

[southernleftylady]

8. hmm... thats what im talking about... CNN being biased lol

[smokeyjoe]

3. Question about Howard Dean on C-Span now!

Democrats only can phone in. This ought to be rich.

[Clark2008]

4. Are you guys watching the CSPAN

Dems are calling in support or non-support of Dean's statements.

It's interesting.

So far, the callers have been positive of Dean.

P.S. It's interesting to note that the Dems in power are bitching about him in media articles, but the grassroots Dems calling into the show love him.

[punpirate]

6. I hope he keeps it up...

... and gets to the line: "Look, the emperor has no clothes." :P

[Clark2008]

7. Guy calling in now is fake Dem

He's from Georgia (says Atlanta, but his accent gives him away. He's not. He's from rural Georgia. I know. I can tell.)

Now, he's touting Biden. :eyes:

Says Dems don't have issues. Says the Dems are suffering... blah, blah, blah.

Sounds like a phony Dem or a Zell Miller Dem to me.

[slor]

9. He is a frequent rethug caller...

trying to give Dean advice...lol. Very distinct voice, always calls to support rethugs!

[acmejack]

10. It was Zell!

I can tell, he was disguising his voice. If not, it was his unacknowledged love child.

[DemonFighterLives]

12. I swear when the moderator asked him, Who would be a good leader

that he was going to say Zell. The party has left him. :rofl:

[DemonFighterLives]

11. That was the only call that was near negative

The guy did sound a little freepish. Anyone knows that the Dems have a big tent and White Christians can be Dems. Duh!
Every other call was positive for Dean. I wonder if our pink tutus will pick up on that fact.
Every article that was read was negative. I was going to ask, if I had gotten through whether there was any positive Dean article that could be read?
It seems the Newspeak is even a bigger problem than our pink tutus.

[NawlinsNed]

13. The problem with Dean's comments

...is that the averagee American knows that Dean is a Democrat, that Democrats are, for lack of a better term, "against" the Republicans, and as such he tends to make negative comments about them when describing them. So now he's called them white Christians (or at least that's what we get in the sound byte), and since the average American knows that Dean uses negative comments when talking about Republicans, that he must think that a white Christian is a negative thing to be. And since he happens to be the chair of the DNC, the Democrats in general must have something against white Christians.

To the average person out there, Dean is coming off exactly how the Republicans portray us time and time again. Anti-values, anti-Christian, anti-family. You can argue to the negative all you want on a forum, but that isn't the point. The point is that they do a better job of selling this to the public than we do claiming otherwise. Obviously, their message is being heard, and it's being reinforced by Dean's soundbites.

This is why Dean isn't going to succeed with the rhetoric he's putting out there. Any experienced politician worth, well, anything knows that whatever he says is ultimately going to be whittled down into a small soundbite. Hell, the Republicans turned Kerry's "I voted for it before I voted against it" into a major part of their campaign. When the 2006 and 2008 elections come out, the Republicans are going to have a treasure trove of "crazy Dean" quotes to campaign against Democrats in general. And they'll work largely because Dean puts one foot in his mouth and grabs the shoe-horn for seconds.

But it goes further than that. When's the last time you walked onto a car lot and the salesperson started telling you about how the car you're looking at doesn't quite match up to a competitor's car, or the deal you're getting isn't matching up to the guy's lot down the street? NEVER.

We are the opposition party, we need to show why our ideas are better and how they're going to work, and we do that by campaigning positively. You sell up, not down. The Democratic party for the past decade on a national level has been the party of "we can't." Even in the Thanksgiving day address this past year, while Bush brought up a bunch of positives, the Democratic speaker on that day spent 4 minutes or so talking about the poor and less fortunate. Everything he said was true, but it came off as complaining on a day that people get together to enjoy their family and friends. More than anything, America won't tolerate a whiner. Less yeah, but. More yeah, and. We need to tell America what we plan to do to make this country and this world a better place, how we plan to do it in a realistic manner, and who we plan to do it with, and then we can win.

Oh, and Edwards should replace Dean when his wife is healthy again. I don't see him as presidential material, but he sure can sell the heck out of anything that moves. Less Sideshow Bob. More Jerry McGuire.

[sendero]

14. There is very little..

.... in your commentary that I agree with. It is "conventional wisdom" with a fancy bow, the sort of "wisdom" that has led us to defeat after defeat against a party that actively works against the needs of most of its own constituents.

The 30% fundie idiot contingent is always going to vote Republican no matter what. Trying to tailor a message to win those people over is a fools game.

Sure, sometimes Dean says something that he could have worded better. Better that than the crop of senate losers we have now who are so afraid of the Repub attack machine that they cower in the corner (with a few notable exceptions).

But, hey - welcome to DU :hi:

[LoZoccolo]

19. 21% of white evangelical Christians voted for Kerry.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

The Republicans would love for us to push these voters over to their side for them - this is why they keep pushing this idea that the "moral values" segment of the vote voted for them, despite the fact that it's a waning segment (40% in 1996, 35% in 2000, 22% in 2004). I believe they try to make this a bigger issue than it is so that our blowback will help people switch sides.

http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3375543

You sit here claiming that this contingent will always vote Republican, completely ignoring that they used to break relatively evenly for us.

In 1987, white evangelical Protestants were split fairly evenly along partisan lines (34 percent Republicans, 31 percent Democrats). Today, there is a nearly two-to-one Republican advantage among white evangelicals (43 percent to 22 percent).

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0101-03.htm

I for one am tired of all the shortcuts people use in dealing in reality here, when they deal in strategy based on emotion and anecdotal evidence, rather than looking at the facts. The fact that something's not "conventional wisdom" as you see it does not make it good, and people here have not sufficiently studied the population of voters and how they vote. The act almost completely out of anger and not out of wisdom.

This should give you a hint: the Republicans try to associate themselves as the exclusive party of Christians, and given that they could have picked any strategy in the world that they could, they picked it in order that they could win. Why let them fight according to strategy? Their leadership wants to establish themselves a certain way - why do the work of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson for them?

The party is not completely made of up of the type of people you see on DU all the time.

[sendero]

21. Nonetheless..

... "evangelical Christian" is not the same as "fundie nutcake".

The percentage of fundie nutcakes who voted for Kerry, unknowable and probably unmeasurably small.

[LoZoccolo]

22. Dean didn't say "fundie nutcake"...

...did he?

[sendero]

27. No...

.. nor did he say anything that is not true, or anything that is going to do all this FAUX "damage".

Christians who voted Dem are not going to vote Rep next time because Dean told them to.

[LoZoccolo]

28. You don't know that.

At best, nothing will happen. Which is why it's a stupid thing to do - it takes a risk that doesn't need to be taken, to at best accomplish the status quo. Not. smart.

And at worst, it's just Dean lending a free assist to the kind of idea that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell spend megabucks trying to push.

It still floors me, that Dean wrote the foreward to the book that basically teaches people how bad of an idea it is to say things like this.

[sendero]

30. I have thought about this...

..... and I'm not so sure that Dean isn't doing all of this "on purpose".

It could be that he's speaking off the cuff, or it could be that he sees a wedge of his own.

In any event, he's getting a lot of exposure and there is something to the idea that "all publicity is good publicity". At least he gets the opportunity to speak and be heard somewhere besides the dead vacuum of the Senate floor.

Dean is not running for anything and that gives him leeway that candidates really don't have.

[LoZoccolo]

17. A very wise post, indeed.

The Republicans frame everything such that we end up sounding like we oppose things we don't. This is similar to the kind of ideas that George Lakoff outlines in his book Don't Think of an Elephant, in which Dean wrote the forward, and really should read the rest.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. I've been wondering

if there isn't some strategy in this, though.

Look, Dean's another person probably not cut out for an ambassadorial spot. He says what he thinks, and that gets him trouble at times. But do you hear a whole lot of complaining from any but us about GOP party chairs who are flat-out attack dogs? It's just expected.

And in comparison, the other Dem leaders look statesmenlike and reasonable. Perhaps it's all intentional? He takes the heat, they win the votes.

[DemBeans]

32. who knows?

If it's a planned strategy, all I can think of is that Dean is attempting to pick off many of the dissatisfied Republicans who believe the religious right has too much influence in their party. It's true that this is a growing contingent of potential Democratic voters.

There probably was a better way of phrasing, however, that might have accomplished winning over these voters without alienating the white Christian voters within our own party. If it's a strategy, I think it was poorly executed.

I like that Dean is starting to take on the GOP, but I wish he'd focus on their leadership and not their membership. I don't have a lot of use for most of them, but there are plenty of moderate Republicans we can easily pick up if we frame the issues correctly.

[JerseygirlCT]

33. Yeah, I agree with you

I'm someone who tends to think before talking. Sometimes too much, perhaps.

I like his spirit, but like you, wish he'd aim a little more carefully. The leadership is corrupt and evil, truly. But there are still a lot of average folks who could easily be persuaded our way.

[Bridget Burke]

24. The Democrats are the OPPOSITION party.

We've got far too many Dems who deal in mealy-mouthed platitudes.

Why should we forget about the "poor and less fortunate"? Especially when Republican policies promise a limping economy, health care that many cannot afford & a crippled Social Security?

[NawlinsNed]

43. Who said forget about them?

I never said forget about them. I said frame the debate in a positive manner. You're going to sell more shinola than shit every day of the week. People don't want to hear how bad everything is (well, maybe some people do, but they aren't the majority of the American voting public). They want to know how good it can be. You do anything that seems like you're cutting them down at the beginning of the speech, and they won't listen to the end.

Start positive, end better.

[lectrobyte]

25. it's a short step from biting your tongue to biting the pillow.

[DemonFighterLives]

26. We are not going to win over the mysterious middle

Kerry kept striving for that only at the cringing of his base.
God and everyone knows that you can be Christian and Democratic at the same time.
I hope Dean gives them hell at every chance. The repukes will get their firm 20% believing the lies about Dean, but most of the rest will catch on if the truth is paraded in front of them 24/7.

Edit: Welcome to DU!

[ValentinoM]

29. I couldn't agree with you more, but that won't help.. we are newbies..

and thus, we are sabotaging the boards.. If I were a 1000 post, old timer, you, or I could get a standing ovation for criticizing the Dem leadership, but alas, when you butt heads with the conventional wisdom, you had better put your flame retardant suit on newbie..duck and cover.. :)

[Bridget Burke]

36. It's bad to judge someone on post count....

Using the Search feature to check out their other posts can give a fuller picture.

[redqueen]

40. All criticism is not equal.

Newbies who criticize the leadership do fine, if the gist of their criticism isn't "Kiss up to the republicans some more!"

THAT's the problem, not post count.

[NawlinsNed]

45. I could give a damn

But I have my own opinion and I won't be shouted down by people just because of their post counts. Ya can't walk across the coals with virgin toes!

[yodermon]

38. have you actually listened to a Dean speech

and not the corporate media cartel's sound-bites? As an opposition party, we have to sell up AND down simultaneously. DEAN DOES THAT IN EVERY SPEECH. Your gripes about Dean indicate that you are viewing him through the right-wing media's lens and THEN making a judgment.

you said This is why Dean isn't going to succeed with the rhetoric he's putting out there. Any experienced politician worth, well, anything knows that whatever he says is ultimately going to be whittled down into a small sound-bite. Hell, the Republicans turned Kerry's "I voted for it before I voted against it" into a major part of their campaign. When the 2006 and 2008 elections come out, the Republicans are going to have a treasure trove of "crazy Dean" quotes to campaign against Democrats in general.

So, you're basically saying: well since the repukes get to frame the issues, and will continue to frame the issues, Dean had better damn well roll over an figure out how to couch his statements within the right-wing framing so that Dems come out looking better? PUHLEAZE!
They "do a better job of selling this to the public" because the right-wing media is ON THEIR SIDE. See Dean's recent appearance on the Wolf Blitzer Show for a case study.

We need to tell America what we plan to do to make this country and this world a better place, how we plan to do it in a realistic manner, and who we plan to do it with, and then we can win.

DEAN IS DOING EXACTLY THAT. LISTEN to him FIRST before your buy into the right-wing CMC portrayal of him.

[NawlinsNed]

39. Yes, and ultimately that matters not one iota

Because America doesn't listen to speeches unless it's a State of the Union address and they're bored out of their skulls because MXC isn't playing on Spike. You can jump up and down and say "Right on, champ" until you are blue in the face, but that shit isn't going to win him any brownie points with the American viewing audience come 5 or 6pm when the national news comes on and he's given 5 seconds of air time and 30 additional seconds of opposing talking head chatter.

IF YOU DON'T GIVE THEM THE SOUNDBITES, THEY CAN'T PLAY THEM, AND THEN THEY ACTUALLY HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE ISSUES. I'm sure he's laughing it up with the people closest to him who are blowing smoke up his ass, but this shit is bringing attention to the party in a negative way. Take the blue blinders off and look at it from Joe Apathy's perspective. That shit ain't flying in his household, because insult his party and he probably doesn't care, but make a negative remark about his race or religion and watch just how closely he does the exact opposite of what you want.

[redqueen]

41. Who picks the soundbites? Dean or the whore corporate media?

You seem to think that if he's just asskissy enough, they'll pick the RIGHT soudbites.

Newsflash: THEY NEVER WILL.

They will ALWAYS portray republicans using the best soundbites, and only give any exposure to trivial bullshit when they do show anything negative about them... or if they can't help covering something serious (e.g. DeLay's criminal activities), they'll trivialize THAT.

They will NEVER pick the 'right soundbites' from Dean. It's their frickin JOB to paint our party as evil, so they don't lose their corporate whore jobs!

[NawlinsNed]

44. Please,

Spare me the whining. I never said once that he needed to kiss anyone's ass. I said he needed to be smart and positive about what he says so that they have no soundbites to make big deals out of.

NEWSFLASH: YOU GIVE A CROSS AND SOME NAILS TO THE OPPORTUNISTS, AND THEY'LL HAVE THE HAMMER READY TO FINISH THE JOB.

[redqueen]

46. Whining? Who's whining?

Please, show me this "whining" you refer to.

No, you didn't say the words "kiss republican ass"... that's called a metaphor. What you said, paraphrasing more seriously for you here, is that Dean should tailor what he says to the centrist (republican) contingent. That is 100% wrong. The political spectrum has shifted so much now that any centrist / moderate dems are now the right of Nixon.

When you posit that he should watch what he says because the media will portray him in a negative manner, you seem to be saying that you somehow believe that there's A CHANCE IN HELL they'll EVER portray him in a positive one.

Do you really believe that?

[sweetheart]

15. She's dead wrong

Dean's job is to raise funds and awareness. This is, unlike during his
campaigning time, to open up discussions as the agent provacateur,
the one who gets people thinking about issues. The democratic party
so desperately needs ths public discussion without tongue biting, as we
need to come together, and until the ice is broken, there is dissent
and a lack of cohesion on what the democratic future and platform
should be.

Should we be for the iraq war?
Should we be for universal medical care?
Should dems stop supporting the drugs war?
Should we file criminal charges against the republican leadership
for conspiracy to murder and defraud?
.
.
All these questions are taboo issues that no single democratic
candidate can raise without fear of distancing themselves from part
of their constitutency, whereas Mr. Dean can open these subjects and
get debate and grassroots involvement in to the discussion. Then
whatever the resulting policy might be, the people will be involved,
and the next dem victory will come from the grassroots.

Dean is wise and the stupid CNN lady is just plain full of shit.

[LoZoccolo]

16. They must be.

Dean can never possibly do wrong.

_{NOTE: This post is sarcastic.}

[Stephanie]

20. Like she has? does O'Reilly run a shut up shut up shut up school?

that broadcast anchors are required to attend?

[ScreamingMeemie]

23. Go, Dean, Go...

I feel better about things...better than I have in a long, long time.

[Kansas Wyatt]

31. Is the truth too much to handle for CNN?

Well CNN, boo fucking hoo, try reporting news instead of fluff and soothing crap that isn't news.

[Straight Shooter]

34. Well, the lady on CNN can bite ME

Howard Dean, the man the right loves to hate. That's the way it is, isn't it? He's like their own personal political pinata.

Keep it up, Dean, because you're bringing up issues in a way that makes it impossible for people to ignore. If you just sat there and said the same thing in a very diplomatic, tactful, oh-so-civil manner, nobody would even notice.

[johnaries]

35. Dean could say "it's a nice, sunny day" and RW would spin it.

"Dean implies clouds are bad for America". "Dean supports drought conditions". "Is Dean anti-rain?" etc., etc.,

He might as well tell the truth!

[yodermon]

48. BEAUTIFUL Framing.

:toast: well said.

[johnaries]

49. Thank you!

I was so proud of it I also used it in an email to some friends!

[Sparkly]

37. You think they'd say that about Bush, Cheney, Delay, etc... n/t

[redqueen]

42. Did she say that about Cheney's "FUCK YOURSELF"?

How about DeLay's comment that our party has 'no class'?

No? I didn't think so.

Whores...

[Individualist]

47. Lady?

The only lady on CNN is Christiane Amanpour.