Proposed Group: VIETNAM GROUP

[alcibiades_mystery]

After enough time passed and memory receded and settled, the name itself became a prayer, coded like all prayer to go past the extremes of petition and gratitude: Vietnam Vietnam Vietnam, say again, until the word lost all its old loads of pain, pleasure, horror, guilt, nostalgia. - Michael Herr, Dispatches

Given the constant analogies to the Vietnam War that crop up in reference to the current debacle in Iraq, and given the incredible importance of the Vietnam experience in American political culture and American culture more generally, I propose a Vietnam Group for DU. The group will serve as a place to discuss the history of the Vietnam wars, to examine the continuing impact of the war on our culture and on Vietnam's culture, and to learn about the nation and culture of Vietnam today. The group will also serve as a place on DU for Vietnam veterans and anyone else who lived through the period to share their experiences and provide their incredible insight to those of us (like me) born after the war. Possible topics for discussion would be extremely broad: they could range from examinations of the foreign policy decisions made in the Eisenhower White House to descriptions of a recent trip to Vietnam to the effect of the war on American social movements. They would almost certainly also include discussions of the massive Vietnam literature, from Stanley Karnow's massive history, to Bernard Fall's books on the French Indochina wars, to W.D. Earhart's poetry, to Tim O'Brien's novels.

As per the rules for group suggestions, we'll need at least ten donors willing to participate before I can bring this to Skinner as a supported proposal. I look forward to discussing this fascinating and crucial topic with all of you.

I saw a picture of a North Vietnamese soldier sitting in the same spot on the Danang River where the press center had been, where we'd sat smoking and joking and going "Too much!" and "Far out! and "Oh my God it gets so freaky out there!" He looked so unbelievably peaceful, I knew that somewhere that night and every night there'd be people sitting together over there talking about the bad old days of jubilee and that one of them would remember and say, Yes, never mind, there were some nice ones, too. And no moves left for me at all but to write down some few last words and make the dispersion, Vietnam Vietnam Vietnam, we've all been there. - Michael Herr, Dispatches

[Bunny]

1. I am not a vet, but I am a donor, and I'll be one of the ten

signatures that you need. My kid's father was in Nam, USMC 69-70.

[alcibiades_mystery]

3. I'm not a vet either, no worries

Participation will not be limited to vets, although vets are of course welcome and ENCOURAGED to participate, since we have a lot to learn from them.

For the broad purposes of this group, veterans of the protest movements are also, of course, welcome (and we know that the two groups are not mutually exclusive!)

Thanks for the support :-)

[brainshrub]

2. I'm not a vet, but I'll happily be one of the ten.

I'm also nominating this for the front page.

[malmapus]

4. will be one of the ten myself

..

[NoPasaran]

5. Sign me up

Vietnam was the big dark cloud on the horizon as I was growing up.

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. I take one of the points of Herr's words

"Vietnam Vietnam Vietnam, we've all been there..." to point to just that: nobody in the United States can escape the way the war shaped our culture, from those who served in country to those like me born after the American participation in the war had dwindled and then faded away. Of course, there are varying degrees of intensity of personal experience in the "we've all been there," but in a very real way, we've all been there.

[Bunny]

7. Kick

[paineinthearse]

8. I'm aboard nt

[TahitiNut]

9. Here's another quote by Michael Herr ...

"All the wrong people remember Vietnam. I think all the people who remember it should forget it, and all the people who forgot it should remember it." — Michael Herr (1989)

I'm literally one-in-a-million ... there are one million Vietnam Veterans left alive today. Strange how there're so many more "experts." :eyes:

As far as the claim "we've all been there" goes ... bullshit! Unless you were there, you weren't there. The delusion that anyone could comprehend the experience of those who were there is total, self-serving, myopic hogwash.


I largely agree with Nixon ...

"No event in American history is more misunderstood than the Vietnam War. It was misreported then, and it is misremembered now." — Richard M. Nixon (1985)

And Myra ...

"Above all, Vietnam was a war that asked everything of a few and nothing of most in America." — Myra MacPherson (1984)

[alcibiades_mystery]

13. I don't think the quote means

that one comprehend the experience of those who were there. That's taking it a bit too literally. I'm saddened, however, that you don't want to participate in the group, since I think your constant insight throughout these boards would be especially good on this topic, given your experience.

I ask you, respectfully, to reconsider.

[Pinboy]

19. I take Herr's quote to mean...

that virtually no one was UNAFFECTED by that war. At the same time, I believe it is possible to gain understanding from the experience of others. For Herr, O'Brien, and many other veterans who have written about or from their experience, there wouldn't be much point to their efforts unless they believed they could communicate some understanding.

[TahitiNut]

20. While Tim O'Brien was a veteran, Michael Herr was not.

Herr spent a little over a year in Nam ('67-'68) as a journalist, mostly in Saigon.

[Pinboy]

21. You're right

Didn't mean to lump him in with military veterans. Thanks for pointing that out, Brother.

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. I complete agree

And that is one of the reasons I proposed this group.

[TahitiNut]

26. For more than 10 years (the 70's), I avoided talking about 'Nam.

It wasn't that difficult since most folks treated the subject like someone let loose a smelly fart in the room -- and I was just trying to get over the nightmares. Of those folks that didn't, most were only interested in telling me how I was wrong, evil, stupid, or a fool for getting drafted and sent. Even up to today, nobody in my family (!) has shown an interest in learning about what I saw and experienced. People have seemed very comfortable with (attached to) whatever they already thought.

Somewhere around the early 80's, I got the notion that I might be able to be a 'bridge.' Unlike many, I was an older draftee; I was 25 years old when I landed in Bien Hoa at 6am that early January morning in 1969. Like many, I was a REMF - assigned to USARV HQ at Long Binh. But I also had some combat experience, mostly in just being a target but once (February 23rd - Tet) with the "opportunity" to shoot back. I thought (perhaps very naively) that I had enough experience to speak of it but not so much that I couldn't. (I'm now wondering if 'not so much' is a delusion.)

I'm now thinking I've been a damned fool. There doesn't seem to be a lot of buyer's remorse among the customers of Opinions 'R' Us. I've even been called a liar, even on DU, by arrogant assholes without the beginning of a clue. I don't think I've ever seen any single topic where people with absolutely no direct experience were so married to the cheap, plastic, one-size-fits-all opinions they use like a Plug'n'Play. At least most of us vets know the differences between the core emotional experiences we have in common, the unique in-country experiences, and the diversity of ways we have dealt with it all. As I see this country making the same stupid mistakes, I don't think we've learned shit. And I don't think most actually want to - even on DU.

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. The last thing I would want

Is for this group to turn into something you would find distasteful or stupid. That said, it need not be all those things, and at its best, it may help mitigate those cookie-cutter opinions that you so nicely describe here.

[Ernesto]

10. I'm good to go

[kliljedahl]

11. I'm in, surprised there wasn't already one

Keith’s Barbeque Central

[Bunny]

12. Kicking again for the lunch crowd.

[Lowell]

14. A time I'd rather forget

but today there is more and more focus on what happened then. For years Vietnam vets were treated as losers and ignored until a crime was committed. Then the headline would scream "Crazed Vietnam Vet . . ."

I don't dwell on the war anymore. I made my peace years ago and have kept my silence. But I do believe today's generation could learn from what we did over there. Perhaps it is time to have this board.

I know if the board is created I will visit it. But then like we said in Nam, "it don't mean shit." If it doesn't happen then no sweat, there are plenty of opportunities to educate and be educated on other boards.

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. Thanks Lowell

At the same time that I'm proposing this board, for the reasons you cited here, I'm also mindful of the wounds that can open up, and I'm willing to retract the proposal immediately if anyone thinks it's in poor taste.

[Lowell]

30. Your proposal is not in poor taste

and like I said earlier I would check it out regularly. If for no other reason to make sure the truth is adhered to. I think that the American people need to be educated on this chapter in our history. If a topic is too painful then we can just pass on commenting or give our honest interpretations.

[Toots]

16. "it don't mean nothing"

I am always amazed at how many Vets hate Jane Fonda but fly the Rebel Flag. She tried to save American lives by protesting the war. The only thing she ever wanted was to end that war. She went about it wrong but her intentions were never to do harm to anyone. The confederate flag stands for real treason not young idealism.

[Lowell]

29. Jane Fonda was a young fool

I still can't forgive her treason, but I can understand her idealism. Yes we ended up on the same side, but we went about it in different ways. As far as the confederate flag goes, where did that come from, I have no tolerance for racism in any form. But, being a southerner by birth I have ancestors who died under that flag. They, like the Iraqis today, were for the most part only defending their homes. I think the time to bury the hatchet and lower confederate flag is long overdue.

[TahitiNut]

31. I don't buy her 'idealism' for a minute.

Joan Baez showed integrity. She protested, lobbied, and advocated peace and support for the Vietnamese people - and she showed it by supporting the boat people. Jane Fonda didn't do shit. Every time she's "apologized" it's been under the pressure of a movie publicist -- trying to fuzz over the past for the sake of movie profits. She's a self-centered, hypocritical opportunist. When it comes to Jane and "principles," follow the money. She's what's called a "checkbook liberal" -- in the deposit column.

[Lowell]

37. I agree

I've tried to forgive it as youthful idealism. But you are right. The direction she has taken since maturity is strictly "opportunist." That's why it is so hard to forgive.

[Toots]

34. I don't where that came from

"It don't mean nothing" brought back a flood of memories and I just rambled off. I wasn't even addressing you at that point. Sorry

[nguoihue]

17. Viet Nam Group

I'd like to join this group if one is formed.

[TahitiNut]

18. cýòu chiêìn binh?

[DemoTex]

22. I'm in.

Vietnam Vietnam Vietnam, say again, until the word lost all its old loads of pain, pleasure, horror, guilt, nostalgia. - Michael Herr, Dispatches

The word never lost all of it's old loads of pain (etc.), however. Maybe the sharp edges were worn down .. for some; the lucky. But I do know what Herr is talking about. I call it 'Namstalgia.

[Ernesto]

35. "Bright Shining Lies"

Col. Vann got it all of it right but no one listened.........

[DemoTex]

36. Indeed. Great book. Vann was Mr. Vietnam.

BTW: See my piece about Bu$h's Bright Shining lies at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/02/21_lies.html

[knowbody0]

24. id be honored to join this group

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. OK, we have TEN, but I want to hold off on proposing it

to give any veterans or others who think it may be inappropriate the opportunity to nix the group.

You can PM me to withdraw the proposal if you'd like.

I want to make sure everyone's OK with this before we continue.

[newyawker99]

27. kick

:kick:

[geniph]

28. I'm in

My husband's a Vietnam combat veteran, USMC 1968-1971, Northern I-Corps.

[Stinky The Clown]

32. I'm a "but for the grace of God" vet. Vietnam era, but never in Vietnam

I'll participate to the extent I can add or partake.