Another Bush voter regrets it

[BattyDem]

A friend of mine was bitching to me about their employer's plan to change their health insurance company for the fourth time in 4 years. Apparently, the premiums have gone up 35% since last year. So ... it looks like they'll be getting an HMO.

My friend is PISSED! She said, "Why doesn't the government get after these companies! Where is all the money going? Foreign countries pay less than half of what we pay for prescription drugs and everyone has insurance! Why is everything so expensive here?"

I said, "Sorry, but don't bitch to me. Last summer, I tried to tell you about Bush and the Republicans giving all our money to their rich friends and you didn't want to hear it. I printed out articles for you. You weren't interested because they didn't come from US newspapers or from 'mainstream' US media. You voted for them anyway. You were more concerned with gay marriage and vague terror alerts. Well, I got news for you ... it's going to get much worse than this."

I thought she'd get mad at me. Instead, a look of regret came over her face and she quietly said, "Yeah."

People are waking up ... I just wish it wouldn't take so damn long!

[maxsolomon]

1. she actually let you say that entire paragraph?

its too late for bush voters to wake up.

much less embrace socialized medicine.

[TayTay]

3. It's not too late

It's painful. But we need to welcome these folks (they are, after all our friends, family members and co-workers) into the light. We need them and the awakened votes they represent to make a change in '06 and beyond.

baby steps, my friend, baby steps.

[Blue Belle]

15. It shouldn't be painful. We're supposed to be the party...

of empathy... of inclusion. We shouldn't be the ones to rub it in their face... we need to embrace them (like you said). Unlike ou GOP bretheren... we know people are human and prone mistakes. It's hard to make the right decisions when all the major media outlets openly embrace the GOP talking points.

If the door is starting to open, we need to stick our foot in it.

[ChemBob]

70. Education

Once the door is opened in their personal experience it is important to educate them. Too many have trusted the MSM for too long. If you have to rub their faces a little bit to remove the scales from their eyes they will understand and thank you eventually. I've had this experience. It is worth the discomfort.

[The Doctor.]

73. Why that's exactly what Batty Dem did...

For one person, she stuck her foot in the door.
You can't embrace someone 'till your in the same place eh?

[krkaufman]

135. Yes. Be kind...

Here's a great line I just came across in May's 'Funny Times'...

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle." -- Philo of Alexandria

[Pirate Smile]

53. Right. We need these people in 2006, 2008, ....

[mitchum]

56. Careful with that "we"

I don't "welcome" these selfish idiots. If they come over to our side it will only be due to their self-interest. Dem candidates need their votes, but I sure as hell don't need a perceived kinship with these idiots.

[Mich Otter]

60. "it will only be due to their self-interest"

Whoa, wait a minute. I vote for Democrats because it is in my self interest. Why not anyone else? It is my self interest if people get help when they need it. Sometimes, I am the person who needs the help.

[mitchum]

75. Fine, if you want to forgive those short-sighted, selfish motherfuckers...

but I don't.
Frankly, I would prefer they drop dead rather than vote Democrat. The end result is that they would no longer be voting republican

[FredStembottom]

74. So many of them are NOT idiots!

The rank and file who provide the votes on election day are not the same people as the ones who built the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.

I am a blue-collar worker in a non-union job - again and again I find that I can talk "union" with my Republican co-workers. I simply point out that so many of the things they think are management "mistakes" that make their lives so miserable are in fact well-known and ancient unfair labor practices.
When they complain about the statistics that are mis-applied to us so that we are forced to speed constantly in our vehicles - I tell them about "Speed-ups".
When they complain about the statistics that are mis-applied to us so that no-one ever reaches the top of the wage scale anymore - I talk about "Wage Stagnation Policies" and "2-Tiered Wage Systems".
Etc.

And before you know it you don't have a Democrat in front of you but you also don't exactly have a Republican in front of you either. Rather, you have an angry, spluttering nothing-in-particular!

Trust me, folks. The isolation from even the most basic labor history is absolutely complete in most people now. Especially in the 20-somethings. And yet they know they are being mistreated - people NEVER lose the power to recognize that! They have simply been denied the knowledge needed to LABEL what is happening to them. And they take off like rockets when you give them that power!

When they see the EXACT same tricks - that had seemed to them to be just puzzling aberrations unique to our company - being used at hundreds of companies for a hundred years, they go nuts! And they change. They are never quite the same again.

I don't know what the rest of you may be up to, but my vow is to supply average people the information that has been denied them due to the genuine conspiracy that has been perpetrated on them and this country and see what happens. People can tell when they are being exploited but minds that have purposely been made totally void of even the _names_ for what afflicts them are powerless.

[mitchum]

79. Okay, how about IGNORANT dumbasses?

I still despise them

[me b zola]

81. You have made some excelent points in your post

The bottom line is, by educating them you are not just railing against *, but rather you are showing them how voting repub, in general, is against their own self interest.

[marions ghost]

96. Agreed--blue collar workers are not idiots but

many of them are uninformed and brainwashed by the media. The corporate moguls have them exactly where they want them--at the end of the trough and powerless. You are doing good work there, Fredstembottom. These are the R voters we have a hope of reaching--the ones being exploited on the lower rungs of the ladder. The Rethuglican corporate honchos and their sleazy minions are not salvageable.

[FredStembottom]

130. Thanks M's ghost, you sparked a line of thought..........

for me!

Perhaps things are truly different in my blue-collar world. The downside (and I have yet to find the up-side) of 25 years Market Worship and it's resultant policies has been all too apparent for quite awhile now. I, personally have slipped back about 32% in my buying power vs. inflation in the last 15 years.
Why do I stay? Because quitting a job like mine just means starting at a wage 40% lower - and then never, ever climbing back up. There is only DOWN in my world.

"My" economy may be reaching everyone else soon, however. There was an NYT article posted here on DU recently that described the new trend of 6-figure white collar types being downsized and forced to take new jobs at close to _50%_ less money! With ZERO hope of ever climbing back up.

Welcome to my world.

:-(

[bobbieinok]

124. even in Tulsa in the 50s, where both newspapers were extremely anti-

union, we got some union history in our American history classes

I've been stunned teaching college students the last 15 years who have essentially no knowledge at all about union history or of the argument

---no union???? then it's one against the corporation; who do you think wins?

---a union???? then it's a group against the corporation; there's more of a (potentially) level playing field

and all the business school students get is the management side

[FredStembottom]

132. Love Tulsa! I have family there......

And that one person vs. corporation frameset has a tiny, little variation that plays out in the real daily lives of blue-collar people. It's the "Counseling Session" where 1 poor shlub sits in a chair across from 2,3, or ? manager/personnel types who are there to "help" the solitary worker "do better". Usually "do better" means go-faster-than-ever-before-with-even-FEWER-mistakes-allowed. Or we-have-statistics-that-show-that-you-need-to-give-back-some-of-your-pay-in-the-form-of-STATISTICAL-break-periods.

Guess who ALWAYS wins in this setting?

[BattyDem]

6. She's not a fanatic or a "Bushbot" ...

she's just a typical Republican who believed that we were safer with Bush. :eyes:

So she let me speak my mind. I wasn't nasty about it ... but I was expecting the usual "you can't believe everything you read on the Internet" rebuttal. But she knew I warned her last year ... and she knew my warnings turned out to be correct, so she just listened and took it all in. It's amazing how people's attitudes begin to change when it starts affecting them.

By the way, I get the "you can't believe everything you read on the Internet" rebuttal from several people I know. I've tried explaining that the information I "find" on the Internet comes from reliable sources, not some weird guy's personal, conspiracy theory web site, but that never seems to get through. :eyes: :shrug:

[FreedomAngel82]

9. And that's how it has to happen

republicans only think about themselves majority of the time. Then something effects them personally (war, health care, job) and then they think twice. At least my experience with republicans. The republican party now isn't the republican party of Teddy Roosevelt or Abraham Lincoln.

[Blue Belle]

16. Them Internets are evil....

Remember the tongue lashing Rehnquist got for having the nerve to do Research over the Internet?? of course it was from Tom Delay... but all the Pundits were salivating over it. The Internet gets a bad rap... but more and more people are logging on and doing the research. The Downing street Memo is on the top 10 most searched on the London times page now. People are starting to pay attention - not in the droves we'd like to see - but it's a start.

[anitar1]

18. So why are they trying to get their mitts on the net ?

They are scared spitless of the internet.

[CJCRANE]

102. It's funny though

when you point it out to them that the stuff on the internet is pretty much the same as it is in the real world and that the links are to well-known newspapers like the (London) Times etc.

(it's just that it's easier to access the world's newspapers on the internet rather than having them delivered to your door every day).

[cpa]

28. Republican girlfriend

It is good she has realized her mistake. However, voters like her really caused this country harm. They did not come through when it would have meant something. Look at the South Dakota voters who elected John Thune and Bush and then had Ellsworth Air force base closed. These people need to bear the responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

[CTyankee]

95. I totally agree!

During the Bush I presidency I warned my Republican sister in law about the threat to a woman's right to choose, and sure enough down came the gag rule. But it only affected Title X money to family planning clinics (mostly Planned Parenthood which was able to build its infrastructure nationally due to Title X funding). Of course, she didn't care because she didn't have to depend on PP for her health care. She said at the time that although she is pro choice, "Abortion is not the only issue" which implied that I was a one issue voter.

Now I am turning the tables. Look at those right wing judges up for confirmation: tell me what is the single unifying issue with them? Abortion! So why, I plan to ask her, do YOU vote for the party that is so single minded on abortion? Especially now that she has two granddaughters who stand to lose a constitutional right their mother and aunt and grandmother had. Why do you vote to give away their rights?

Whose fault will it be if Roe is overturned? It is about time that these people feel the heat and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for their actions!

[mitchum]

55. Sorry, but your friend is just a fucking idiot

[BattyDem]

61. So are the other 50 million people who voted for him ...

but at least she's finally waking up. :-)

[mitchum]

76. Indeed...

and my friendship is too precious to waste on drooling idiots like that :)

[MadisonProgressive]

110. You are not sounding like Einstein either...

[mitchum]

121. You're right...

I don't speak German.
However, you don't sound like Gore Vidal yourself. He would never use the ancient Einstein cliche as a "devastatingly witty and dismissive put down" Maybe a hack sitcom writer , though...

I make no apologies for my hatred of those fucking idiots.

[FizzFuzz]

71. I have that same problem

I don't talk about it too much, because the RW's are at work, and I have to avoid confrontation with colleagues. But the people who are Xtian bushites, I think are being told by their pastors. I try to make it clear that any info I mention (what I can remember, I have a terrible memory for details, numbers, names<---very frustrating when I can't think of what I want to say) came from very reliable sources. Like actual footage of said Repub leader saying awful things, for one example.

But if FOX or their pastor didn't say it.......
:shrug:

The patience part is tough.

[For PaisAn]

72. Nice picture

Love your picture of Owen & his "mom" Mzee.
;-)

[FizzFuzz]

103. I didn't realize they had names! Awwwwww, so sweet!

:loveya:

[mitchum]

77. You are right about them being brainwashed by their pulpit-dwelling...

conmen. And it is highly unlikely that we will ever win over people that damn stupid and gullible. That is why it is a HUGE mistake for the Dems to moderate our stance in order to win over that voting bloc- "Mah preacher says..." Idiots who look up to some grifter who spent 6 months at some backwater seminary are a lost cause.

[FizzFuzz]

107. yeah...so frustrating though.

These are intelligent people, mostly women, and most are quite YOUNG! I am so saddened to see young people embracing such close mindedness. ONe woman I absolutely love, on a personal level, but she's a fundy. She would make a great liberal, but she is totally into jesus, and is against abortion, and for abstinence programs. I tried to send her the HumanRightsWatch link (they're highly respected, for decades), but she never said anything. (Her church sends missionaries to Uganda to teach abstinence programs. Ugandans are BEGGING for more realistic solutions. I have not pushed her for a response to that link.)

When I was asking for support to write and LTTE to our lousy newspaper about their miserable "coverage" of the Women's March, she was willing if I could prove to her that the facts had been mangled by the paper. (Because though she didn't support the march, she supported fair coverage, as she would want if it had been her issue. She had to have proof from a reliable source. Sadly, she didn't believe the link I gave her from the march itself. And I couldn't find any US links that correctly reported the actual count and not the reduced count provided by DC police.)

oops, rambled....
But many of these people are not "idiots" in the simplistic sense of the word. Just very uncritical, I guess. I don't know. I guess its best to force myself away from despairing over this. I DID just find a Dem group meeting once a month not far from me! THAT is a big positive! :)

[lostnfound]

92. "Told by their pastors"..maybe we should start lying and use that line?!!

We could say,
My pastor said on Sunday that Jesus said blessed are the peacemakers so we need to be patient and humble towards those weird hippies with their antiwar signs, maybe they are a sign from Jesus.

My pastor said on Sunday that television is like speaking with forked tongue..some of it owned by weapons makers, what could be more evil that TV media that incites war? Plus there's all that sex on there too..they just do whatever sells. Even those TV preachers are like the moneychangers in the temple, on TV so they can rake in a lot of money.

My pastor said that Bush's new Real ID act is like being marked with the mark of the devil.

My pastor said that Jesus had 12 apostles and they lived in a little community where they shared food and everything. So shouldn't we all be trying to learn to turn to each other and help each other out, instead of living in our walled-up communities and yelling at the beggars?

[FizzFuzz]

108. yes! I hope the liberal Christians get loud, and fast.

I'm not Christian, so I can't speak to them in their language. I'm Buddhist, so I can speak of universal spiritual truths, but the ideology of a personified deity who is my only link to spiritual evolution----not my language.

[skooooo]

97. Information literacy..

People need to learn how to evaluate information and think critically. They need to sit down and read and THINK.

People have turned off their brain and let the propaganda dictate their views.

[quixoticnc]

115. associated press

i would say that 80% of all articles used on the internet can be traced to an AP or Reuters press release. Associated Press or Reuters are clearly marked and are published in every mainstream newspaper in america. when you find a story on alternet or buzzflash or commondreams or whatever, yahoo the headline. (yahoo news consistently uses the same 5 news sources) then print the AP or Reuters version of the article.

that's mainstream news and inarguably reliable. just a suggestion

[IrateCitizen]

2. People don't wake up until it affects THEM...

So long as it hasn't happened yet, or stands primarily to directly affect other people, the vast majority of people won't give a shit.

It's only when something directly affects THEM that they actually are willing to listen and possibly do something about it. And even in that instance, some people are too stubborn to let go of their pre-conceived notions to re-adjust their thinking.

[silver10]

4. so true!

[Roland99]

34. Americans are selfish, arrogant, spoiled brats.

[info being]

118. You forgot ignorant and repugnant

[Deja Q]

46. Ding ding ding! Michael Moore has said that often as well.

And the DLC doesn't want him representing them either...

[yella_dawg]

5. It looks like the Credit Card Companies finally killed their goose that

laid the golden egg.

Wouldn't it be great if the backlash from Pharmaceutical and Insurance greed got us universal health care?


Mwa ha ha haaaa....

[Raksha]

13. I think that's EXACTLY what's going to happen, yella_dawg!

>>Wouldn't it be great if the backlash from Pharmaceutical and Insurance greed got us universal health care?<<

They killed the goose that laid the golden egg, all right, and they have NOBODY to blame but themselves!

[Blue Belle]

17. Enter Michael Moore's new movie...

It's focus will be on the pharmaceutical industry. I can't wait to see it.

[Rainscents]

36. Do you know, when the movie will be release? I can't wait to see it!

I think, it will be another big hits!

[Blue Belle]

67. I don't know... I just read that it was focusing on the

pharmaceutical industry. I can't wait until it comes out.

[tblue37]

57. What you said about credit card companies--

It is so true. I have already paid off one creidt card, and by Christmas I will have paid off the other two. They have all been cut up, too. By next spring my son will have paid off and cut up all of his. Everyone I know is hurrying to pay down their debt and vowing to eschew credit cards forever.

If it weren't a lucrative business, they wouldn't be pushing cards on people who are terrible credit risks. But they are convinced that we can't break the credit habit, and that they can lock us into debt slavery forever, at higher and higher rates.

But what they have done is scared a lot of people into rushing to get out of debt and turning their backs on the use of credit cards.

Killing the goose that laid the golden egg is a perfect metaphor for what the credit card companies have done to themselves.

Dumbasses.

[FreedomAngel82]

7. Nice

Now all you have to do is get your friend to vote in the midterms and vote democratic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. as people get colder and hungrier they wake up

truism

[rateyes]

10. Almost makes me wish that gasoline would

go to $5.00 a gallon. Then maybe everytime a freeptard filled up he could thank the oilslick guys in the White House.

[NEOBuckeye]

48. Be careful about what you wish for. It's much closer than you think.

www.peakoil.net

[Geo55]

68. Zackly .....sometime in '06 is my guesstament.

[brokensymmetry]

93. I wouldn't argue.

Then again...2005 has a l-o-n-g way to go....

[brokensymmetry]

94. I wouldn't argue.

Then again...2005 has a l-o-n-g way to go....

[liberaliraqvet26]

62. they would find a way to blame it on dean

[hatrack]

126. No, they'd blame Clenis first

The Mighty, Awesome CLENIS is the root of all our problems!

[arcane1]

27. "First comes fodder, then comes morality"

Berthold Brecht, 1928

[mitchum]

78. No, they turn to even more pie in the sky superstitious horseshit...

that's why christian extremists in this country and muslim extremists elsewhere are currently so successful.

[Raksha]

11. I knew it on November 3rd, and so did a lot of other Dems:

The clueless ones were just going to damn well have to start feeling their OWN pain before they finally woke up. I think your "don't come crying to me" response was RIGHT ON!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Yep given it myself a couple times over

[SharonAnn]

66. Yes, things weren't bad enough for enough people yet.

And it's going to get worse. We're all going to suffer becasue of those who voted for * and his minions.

I hope people wake up in time for the 2006 elections. We need a Democratic House and Senate.

[UdoKier]

14. SHe's just now getting an HMO?

Man, that must be a cush job. Most of us were switched to HMOs ages ago (those of us lucky enough to have insurance)

[BattyDem]

20. I know ... she's been spoiled by REAL insurance!

An HMO is going to be a rude awakening.

[MissMarple]

85. Don't diss HMO's across the board. The HMO concept is quite good.

Just a little heads up. :-)

"REAL" insurance...now what would that be? HMO's are real insurance. Study up, babycakes. Generalizations get us all in trouble.

[BattyDem]

134. I don't need to study up ... I've had an HMO for years and it sucks!

95% of the people I know have HMOs and not one of them has a good thing to say about it. You obviously never had a major problem with one. That's great ... I'm happy for you. :-) You're very lucky, but unfortunately, most of us aren't - especially those of us that have serious, chronic health problems. There's a reason most people hate HMOs. :-(


What I meant by "real" insurance:
The kind of insurance we all had before the HMO's took over ... the kind of insurance that let the doctors and the patients discuss treatment options and decide what was best (you didn't need "permission" from the insurance company "suits") ... the kind of insurance that let you choose the doctor you were comfortable with and had confidence in (you didn't have to choose a network doctor) ... the kind of insurance that allowed you to get the medication your doctor prescribed and not a "similar" medication that happens to be on a pre-approved list (I don't mean generics - I mean different medications that have similar ingredients, but don't necessarily work as well as the prescribed med).

[Arkansas Granny]

19. I had an interesting discussion with my boss on this subject.

He votes Republican because they are supposedly on the side of small business. He was telling me of a recent meeting of a national association that the company is a member of where health insurance was discussed. As he explained the plan, I realized that they were using the same talking points that John Kerry had used in the last presidential race. When I told him that, he admitted that he had not really listened to any of Kerry's speeches, because he had already decided to vote for Bush because he felt that Bush shared his moral values more than Democrats did. (I didn't point out to him that you can't make an objective decision without listening to both sides of an argument. He signs my paycheck, after all.) This gives you some insight as to how Bush racked up as many votes as he did.

I must say, however, that the people I know who did vote for Bush are not nearly as happy with him now as they thought they would be.

[Blue Belle]

24. Another favorite republican myth debunked

This "Republicans are on the side of small business" myth lies somewhere between "Republicans make America Stronger" and "Liberal Media bias"... :eyes:

[bookman]

37. Small business

Yeah, which one is the small one? Pfizer or Merck?

[tavalon]

42. Eli Lilly

as well! :eyes:

Excellent retort, BTW.

[Blue Belle]

69. Exactly...

oy veh... :eyes:

[AspenRose]

117. Don't forget "Republicans are for smaller government"

eom

[cpa]

33. Moral Values

How does he know anything about Bush's moral values. Bush has never been successful in anything he has tried-business, school etc. Ask him why Bush did not prevent 9/11 after all of the warnings he received( like the 8/06/01 briefing).

[marions ghost]

99. the small business owners

are another group that is constantly being duped by the Rethuglicans. There are several in my immediate family, so I'm aware of many of the issues.

Democrats need to address the concerns of small business owners very aggressively, very directly. I think there's opportunity there. They are getting the short end of the stick.

[libertypirate]

21. 67% of Americans use the Internet as of Feb 2005

201 million people who choose what they know, there is no longer an excuse for ignorance.

Good work it takes a couple of these from everyone and we will be well on our way.

You should have asked if the person what to help now that they know the truth. I have been telling people to reclaim their vote and sign the Conyers letter.

[SpiralHawk]

23. I'd imagine its a safe assumption that Inet users vote more frequently

than non-Inet users. I wonder if anyone has any stats on that?

[tavalon]

43. Why would you think that?

Wandering around on Ebay and surfing LJ (two very common reasons people get on the net) doesn't necessarily make one a more conscientious citizen.

[FighttheFuture]

29. Do you have link for this stat? It seems way to high....

How many do you think actually use it effectively? Know how to search for information? Understand that there are other URL's besides Yahoo, fox news, MSNBC, CNN?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

63. Care to share where you got that statistic? IMHO, that's highly suspect.

[DinahMoeHum]

22. One by one by one by one by one. . .

etc.

:kick:

[LaurenG]

25. I'm a hard ass. I'm mad at her, look what she and 50 million

(maybe) Americans did to us. I guess I'll hold a grudge till I'm done being mad. Will I ever be over the mad? x(

[FighttheFuture]

30. Forgive, but don't forget!! Hold these dumbasses to thier past...

stupidity. Otherwise, they will never learn!!

[tavalon]

44. You'll need to eventually

Because otherwise you are carrying around those 50 million people like the biggest ball and chain ever. It's not fair to you.

Now notice, I'm discussing forgiving, not forgetting.

[mitchum]

59. I'm with you, OhioBlues...

for the very same reasons. I truly despise the fools who voted for that dirtbag. They have A LOT to be sorry for. I would be just as happy if they were unable to vote republican (or anyone) than if they voted democrat. In fact, maybe a little happier.

[Mich Otter]

65. Stay mad, and get even.

Get even by doing all you can to support the next Democrat.

[NuttyFluffers]

89. beat her with a foam bat until it's out of your system?

there's a reason god inspired the creation of Nerf. it's to express our natural aggression without killing anyone.

[Syrinx]

26. a related email I just received

I just got home from Daddy's. His friend Dottie brought up politics. (Daddy and I don't go there anymore). Anyway, Daddy said he was fed up with G. bush, and the gop. Said he would not support them anymore. When I asked why, he said several things, but what pushed him over was the issue with the veterans. They way they are treating them, and refusing to help them, cutting benefits, etc!!!!!!!! So Yaa. Anyway, I think the Veteran's card is a good one for the demo's to play. I mean. the repug's play the abortion card until you could vomit, so the veteran's issue should be repeatedly played by the Demo's. I mean, people are sentimental about the people who have fought our wars, and mistreating them strikes a nerve. I then, (lied) and said there is talk about drawing up impeachment papers (not altogether a lie..there are rumors afoot), And I then expected him to explode, but no. He said that would suit him fine. So. You don't realize what a repug Daddy is. This is huge. It gives me hope.

[FighttheFuture]

32. Cripes, there are soooo many cards for the dumbocrats to play...

At least Dean is starting to paly them, and getting some airplay for it!! Need to jettison the DLC and Repug-lites to play many of the other ones!

[ebayfool]

87. "dumbocrats" ? Real nice ...

Seen that play on words, before! It's still as offensive now it was as then.

[dogday]

31. The only thing I hang on to is that I am not responsible for putting

the shrub into office.

[Rainscents]

35. I have two Republican friends who voted for Bush... They finally

realized they had been lied to... I gave them so much informations and I think helped alot!

Yes we (democrats) should embrace them when they wake up from long sleep!

[DollyM]

38. How are we going to survive?

My husband works at a college in a FEDERAL program that helps disadvantaged students. His position is part time and he teaches part time but the college considers that two separate contracts so he has no benefits. He is also a diabetic which makes it a struggle to pay for his medical care. Last month, we incurred $1000.00 in medical bills for him and still owe the hospital another $1000.00. On an income of $2500.00 a month, how are we supposed to pay these medical bills? My husband is also a Veteran but all that amounts too is shoddy medical care that is not free as some think. Then I see how much money is being spent in Iraq and it just makes my blood boil. How can we spend that much money in a country that doesn't want us there and is hell bent on getting rid of every last American there, yet we don't have enough money to provide basic health care at a reasonable price to our own citizens? Something is dreadfully wrong here. Oh by the way, the program my husband works for is being eliminated due to Federal budget cuts. We wouldn't want to help disadvantaged and handicapped students succeed in college and actually get out and earn a living now would we!

[Rainscents]

39. Hi MollyM... Welcome to DU!!!

My heart bleed for you and your husband. I am always sick to my stomach when I hear stories like yours. I am also disable and living on the limited income. I had 8 back surgeries due to fall at work.
This administration don't give a shit about anyone, except their own. I wish I had millions dollar so I can help people like you. I always try to help people who needs support and people always appreciated very much. Thanks for sharing your story.
MollyM... We will win this fight, it may take a while, but in the end, we will win!

[faithnotgreed]

40. so very sorry dollym... we are glad youre here

and truly do feel your pain

you sound like youve got a great head on your shoulders and were lucky there are people out there as caring as you and your husband
sorry for what you - and countless others - are suffering through

we have to keep together and keep fighting this good fight. i dont know when but were going to win!

[Sparkly]

80. Welcome, DollyM -- I hear what you're saying

Colleges are under huge financial pressures, and when that happens everything possible is cut (even helping the disadvantaged!) and they create adjunct positions to avoid giving benefits.

Combined with your husband's medical needs and status as a veteran, it's just criminal what you're going through.

(Could he work in a high school? They often pay better and give better benefits than colleges do.)

:hug:

[Fire Walk With Me]

41. Always remind them: No Panic Voting!

12 years of Reagan and Bush and the economy and foreign policy go to hell. 5 years of Bush and the economy and foreign policy go to hell.

If you see a pattern, consider your vote as deeply as possible.

Then again, add "and vote counting" to the above :-/

[Cogito_ergo_Democrat]

45. Too bad it doesn't matter

I am so convinced that the GOP is working with Diebold and ES&S to rig elections, that whenever I hear "Another former Bush voter..." all I can think is "So what. As long as the elections are rigged it doesn't matter how many Americans of ANY stripe get wise to Bush, he'll keep stealing the election".

I believe it is imperative that we get local election commissions to require paper trails for evoting machines and random manual audits of ALL vote counting machines to compare the machine counts to the hand counts.

[Deja Q]

47. But it does.

Repukes might win control, but:

1. The control is not legitimate.
2. They've done actions that are treasonous.
3. When the time comes, many people will revolt, though some will just commit suicide. (so expect a police state once *'s numbers get low enough.)

[Gay Green]

52. ...so expect a police state once *'s numbers get low enough.

The Repugs in Congress are already at work trying to set up the police state! Check out the Patriot Act Renewal Bill and the Drug Bill that just got out of committee in the Senate!

:wtf: :wow: :scared: :puke: :mad: :grr: :argh: :nuke: :rant:

[For PaisAn]

51. You're so right

Unless we have legitimate, fraud free elections nothing else matters. They don't really care what we think. If we can't vote them out then they have no accountability and no consequences for their actions so why on earth would they stop. And by the time all these repugs get wise it will really be too late. We need legitimate elections.

[marions ghost]

106. ditto

real election reforms are key. Without that the numbers can't be trusted.

Still, I'm encouraged by this Repug buyer's remorse. At least it signifies that they are waking up from the poppy field. When they really wake up, maybe they'll be angry at being pawns in a very big game that's not beneficial to them whatsoever.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

64. Bingo! Dead on.

[bobbieinok]

127. rigged elections and control of media==when will a democrat win????

[donato]

49. They are waking up...

Unfortunately it's 7 months too late. I was talking to a guy at work today who is tired of Bush and the lies. This guy worked on W's campaign and this guy is what you would consider the Christian right. Guess they didn't get what they paid for! :rofl:

[Straight Shooter]

50. bushco is trying to eliminate tax credits for insurance for employees.

There was just a blip on the radar not too long ago, but it was there. We can look for it probably after 2006, because things aren't going too well for bushco now, to put it mildly. Imagine that, trying to take away any incentive for an employer to offer health insurance.

You can tell your friend that she ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until she joins the ranks of the "uninsured because I can't afford health insurance and food." There's, what, about 46 million of us in that position?

To the new members on this thread: Welcome to DU! :hi:

[mitchum]

54. Well, there are TWO ways that she could make amends...

she can kiss my ass AND go to hell.
Sorry, if I come off harsh, but don't count on her turning against the gop. Stupid sheep almost always revert to type.

[donato]

58. Yea, he is a sheeple

The guy doesn't have a pot to piss in, has filed bankruptcy in the past, was in the reserve and was called to duty after 9/11, has many children to support, but still has that belief that the repukes stand for god and country. And you're right, you can lead a sheep to facts, but you can't make them think.

[bunnyhugger]

83. i have come to the conclusion

that americans, most americans, are very dumb. or extremely naieve. they want to believe that our administration would ever do such things to their own country, but they don't realize, with the reich wing, it's 'us against them,' and 'every man for himself.'

my grandmother, who passed a year ago, contributed money to the RW robbers. it made me so sad to think that sweet, little old ladies are just so clueless. getting the wrong news...no access to the internets...

i remember telling her about the FDA allowing rBgh to be pumped into dairy cows and she very defiantly said "our government would never allow such a thing." she wouldn't sign my petition because SHE DIDN'T BELIEVE OUR GOVERNMENT WOULD DO SUCH A THING.

so very, very sad. she had several SIGNED photos of satan & the first robot in her dining room. (which always made me lose my appetite.)

[gridbug]

82. The hardline approach.

My cousin (lives in Texas) and my aunt (her mother, lives in Ohio) both voted for Bush in 2004, despite my best efforts to help educate them (I live in California). I am a registered independant, voted for Kerry in 2004, do not pledge allegiance to the bible and wish for humankind to live according to tenets of common courtesy, common sense, and forward thinking. My inability to bridge the gap between the ignorants who voted to help destroy America and those who want to save it has caused a rift in our relationship. My cousin is intelligent, sharp and quick-witted. She is also a Christian, though she's not in-your-face about it.

During the recent DeLay stuff back in mid-April, she sent me some typical Republican "poor DeLay" posting. I replied with an eloquently fact-laden "fuck DeLay" posting I'd found on the Internets. Problem was I accidentally hit "reply to all" which included her list of recipients who are all GOP BushCo supporters. Suffice to say, they weren't pleased. After I engaged some of them in what I hoped would be an intelligent, respectful debate, I got this message from my cousin:

"WHY are you e-mailing all of my friends with this stuff??? They aren't interested and you have now fully succeeded in pissing me off. Stop it! And if you cannot, take me off your e-mail list and I will do likewise."

Fair enough. A few minutes later I get another one from her, with the subject heading "So Sorry!". I opened it and read this:

"Guys, I am so sorry for XXXX's fanatical ravings. He is my eccentric (can you tell) cousin who has very strong, um, "ideas". Why he chose to share them with all of you is completely and utterly beyond me. I have demanded he stop, and I am so sorry he bothered you with that crap."

She'd accidentally included me in the "apology" message to her friends. I felt like I'd been hit in the stomach with a baseball bat. After composing myself, I replied to her and was sure to include her mailing list:

"Apologies for hitting the wrong button (reply to all) in my initial reply. As for the addendum, I thought I saw an opportunity for an intelligent, open minded exchange of ideas. I guess that concept is too "fanatical" and "eccentric" to be considered. Thanks, XXXX. Next time you want to belittle me -sorry, "explain away my delusions" to your friends, please take my address off the list. That's the sort of thing that can cause irreparable harm to an otherwise healthy relationship."

She and I have since corresponded, and while we've made amends (she did apologize, but I can't help but wonder if she was sorry she did it or was sorrier that she got busted) there is still an emotional rift between us, probably more for me than for her.

I sometimes wonder why I let this whole issue get to me so much, and then I realize it's because there's so very much at stake here. Anyone and everyone who decided to vote for BushCo has WILLINGLY decided to fuck every last one of the progressives. Blame it on religion, blame it on fear, blame it on ignorance, the fact is they ignored what HALF THE COUNTRY realized; that the massive NeoCon propaganda machine was gearing up to further the rich while decimating the middle class and grinding the poor into the dirt, not to mention furthering their criminal and deeply hypocritical theocratic agendas while pissing all over our rights and putting the United States in a global death spiral.

Prior to the 2004 election I asked my cousin if she'd seen Fahrenheit 911 and she denounced it as total bullshit WITHOUT EVEN GIVING IT A LOOK. In the face of that sort of blind ignorance, I truly feel that while it's interesting that some of the BushCo sheeple may be beginning to wake up, a large part of me can't bring myself to welcome them with open arms. If they didn't see what was so obvious to the rest of us, and subsequently didn't act accordingly to save our country when she needed us the most, then I wonder just how bendable they really are, and if we can really trust them after all. It'd be nice if those members of my family would snap out of it, but for all the rolling of the eyes and the arrogant dismissals of the FACTUAL data that I supplied them with regarding election fraud, Bush's past history, the whole Iraq/WMD fiasco, and even the emerging implications regarding the administration's complicity in the 9/11 tragedy, I can only try to forgive.

But I will most certainly never forget.

[Tsiyu]

109. Good post, gridbug!

Welcome to DU :hi:

[marco_the_physicist]

133. A Similar Thing Happened at Work

At the place where I work (a DoD installation), a similar thing happened. A few colleagues and I regularly e-mail each other interesting news items from pro- and anti- Bush sources. A right-winger (strangely, an otherwise intelligent individual) made the mistake of including the original source in the email. No problem, until another colleague replied to all. He made a relatively innocuous commentary, pointing out obvious half-truths, omissions, and logical flaws in the original diatribe. And his name is Muhammad. The response from the raving right-wing lunatic was a mixture of atrocious grammar, incomprehesible sentence structure, and poor spelling. It seemed to be a spittle-flecked rave about including his email on forwards, followed by what could only be described as a threat to Muhammed. It was something to the extent of "the last time any f*ing liberal faggot said talked to me like that, he got chased off with a .45 in his face."

After a few hours of silence, I replied with a dime-store psychological evaluation of the right-wing nutjob. Everyone from our group agreed with my evaluation when I saw them face-to-face, but that pretty much put an end to our "free exchange of ideas".

Sad.

[DirtyDawg]

84. Not that I get into it....

with many of my repig friends these days, but on occasion, when it becomes obvious that their support for bushco has been based primarily on the tax cuts, or corporate profits, or protection for whatever tax dodge or industry that they have their money in, I have to wonder...just what price do they put on America's soul? I so want to ask them, 'has it been worth it? Is the six or eight percent that they saved on their income tax been worth the lives of all our young men and women? The lives of the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis?

Now this 'friend' is complaining that her health insurance keeps going up and is looking for somebody to blame. The cheese is starting to bind and the people that only look so far as their pocketbook are now pissed at George. Well, fuck 'em. They'll just have to live with the knowledge that their selfishness and delusion and denial and bigotry and arrogance and cynicism and hate and the whole long list of reasons why they refused to see the lies and deceit, has brought this proud country virtually to her knees. Well now they're about to have to pay the price...only we're all gonna' have to pay that price. That's why I say 'fuck 'em'.

[Orion The Hunter]

86. RE: Another one wakes up

I can relate to these stories of Republican voters finally getting it. My father is a biochemist with the National Institute of Health, and had been a loyal Republican voter until 2004. As the Republicans really started to discredit science in favor of religion, he just got sick of the science bashing. Now when I talk to him, every so often I mention what is going on out in Kansas with the "science versus religion" tests, and its all he can do to contain himself from venting about how utterly ridiculous the fundamentalists are in the Republican party, and how they are shaping public policy for the worse.

[NuttyFluffers]

88. can we punch 'em in the arm for every usa soldier killed by *'s lies, too?

it'd make me feel better at least. then accepting their contrition would be a lot easier.
:evilgrin:

[cleveramerican]

90. The "will defend W till forever type"

I have had some similar experiences with bush-voter-regret, but I have had many many more run-ins with the more scary "Will defend him till forever" type.
One of my best friends, Known him since we were kids is in this camp and yes its has caused a rift in our friendship of over 30 years which I regret.

[info being]

119. That would make a great advertisement

[liberal N proud]

91. I had a discussion with a former bu$h voter 2 nights ago

He said he was afraid of where America was headed.
He said he didn't know why he voted for bu$h. I wanted to tell hem my theory but felt that would just alienate him.
I shared with him some stories from working the election and told him that the Congressional Elections in 2006 were our chance to turn things around.

[Ganja Ninja]

98. That almost makes me feel better.

Those who regret voting for Bush have a chance to make amends in 2006 by voting the GOP out in congress and the senate. What'ya wanta bet they screw it up again? :shrug: I just don't have any faith in the American voter or the voting system itself. I really think the GOP will leave power only one way. The same way Marcos left in the Philippines. When people take to the streets and march on the Capitol and the White House and insist they leave.

[johnlal]

100. It doesn't matter

Bush isn't running next time around. And we'll still hear, "I know Cheney's a crook, but I just can't bring my self to vote for (Clinton, Edwards, Kerry, whoever the liberal villain of the day will be).

[NewJeffCT]

101. Unfortunately, when push comes to shove...

I heard that from a lot of Republicans last year, including one guy that was pretty conservative that started telling everybody last summer to "Vote for Kerry" and he's not exactly the bashful type.

However, when push came to shove, they still voted Bush. Kerry was so effectively demonized by the Republican propaganda machine that they figured Bush was the lesser of 2 evils.

[Teena]

104. Having the same problem...

I sent information about how our children should begin to assemble evidence that they do not approve of, nor will they partake in killing another human being, to my two sisters-in-law in light of all of the news about low military recruitment numbers, the draft, etc. It is important that the boys discuss and document conversations with their clergy. I know they both voted for Bush and Co., but I thought they should have the information since one has a 23 year old son and a 19 year old son. The other has a 16 year old son. I got absolutely NO response from either of them. No thank you, no "screw you", NOTHING! When my husband went to visit his parents where his sister lives, there was a party. The conversation about politics got very heated. His sister was one of the idiots who argued LOUDLY that the oil in Iraq is ours and we have every right to it! She also told my husband to tell me to stop sending her propaganda. Shortly afterward, I wrote an email to her to (stupidly) apologize to her for offending her. No response, again. A second email finally got a response, but in it she lied and said she didn't know where I got the idea that she was angry, but that she supported the administration and thought we should keep politics out of our relationship. Apparently, she considers her boys' lives part of Republican politics-as-usual. How sad! The other sister-in-law, an Alabama Bush supporter, has never responded. i will never feel the same affection toward either of them again.

[Tsiyu]

111. Welcome to DU, Teena!

:hi:

[Teena]

120. Thanks for the welcome

I pop in once in blue moon to let off steam. I do this so often at home about the Bushnazis that my family has had enough. They all hate him, too. But they, especially my husband, think I may be going off the deep end. Not yet - but I'm getting close!

[Catboater]

105. I wish I was seeing that!

But I'm not. Most of the Bushies I know cast a blind eye to the clearly visible faults, and clap like trained seals at everything they do. Then they talk endlessly about how unhinged Howard Dean is, how desperate the Dems are, or whatever issue talk radio is running that day that they can parrot back. They are a lot like some sports fans who keep rooting for their team no matter how much they really suck.

[Tsiyu]

112. Welcome to DU, Catboater!

:hi:

[Teena]

122. Not my team...not my president

Your comment about rooting for a losing team hit home for me. A fellow reader of our hometown newspaper accused me of just that because I often write letters to the editor objecting to nearly every screw-up by Bush and Co. I don't think I've ever mentioned in my letters who I support, so she just went ahead and made her own assumptions. She even stooped so low as to use sports analogies - like "relegate your comments to the bench" - to suggest what I can do with my feelings about that Bush and his hangers-on. Apparently some people have trouble distinguishing winners from losers. Her point was, simply, that the "winner" of the election was the one to support. Never before in history has that logic proved to be a stinking truckload of crap!

[ktowntennesseedem]

113. Silver lining, anyone?

I firmly believe that Americans, at least those who aren't totally brain-dead and incapable of seeing the awful truth, will eventually wake up to the lies and deceit of the current mis-administration. The only question has been, and remains: how long will it take to happen, and how bad does it have to get before the truth is obvious.

But maybe, as bad as I wish the "awakening" had happened before Nov. 2, the silver lining in all this is that the Repugs have no one to blame for the country's but themselves. As more people "wake up," all of Rove's denying and deflecting will only be seen as more lies and deceptions. Had all this happened sooner and Kerry was now occupying the White House, they would have had 4 years to blame a Democratic president for all our problems.

I know, I know, the vote was rigged; but had enough sheeple been awake last year, the exit polls would have shown a much larger margin for Kerry, and even the current WH crew wouldn't have enough gall to steal it when you've lost it that badly. And I'm sure things would be different with a Dem in the WH; but as bad as things are and as long as it takes to turn around something as large as the US, it might have been tough for Kerry or any Dem to make improvements fast enough to satisfy everyone. With the Chimp on the throne for 4-more, especially with his big ol' mandate, he can take all the credit for flushing America down the crapper. And by the time we get to finally put a Dem back in the WH, it will be with a genuine mandate from an awakened America so tired of Shrub & Co. they will allow the new Dem president time and freedom to clean up the mess he or she has inherited.

Just one possible scenario out of thousands, but I could live with it.

[undergroundpanther]

114. Churches

Use alot of hypnosis,mind techniques and auto suggestion in their performances.
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec98/913004327

Think about it if a hypnotist can curb a phobias in their patients ,even temporarily,
http://www.hypnos.info/cds/cd04.html

Imagine what going to a mass hypnosis session EVERY WEEK to a church that uses hypnosis and auto suggestion techniques can do for skewing your thinking and generating blind spots in how you pay attention to issues.

When I was in AoG the way the music was done the lighting the order of the sermon the way they spoke was a very sophisticated hypnotic induction.I felt the changes in myself. It's scary
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13767.htm

scary that people would want to do this..http://www.applyhypnosis.com/?hop=norbiz

I think that church hypnosis effects people to varying degrees.. depending on personality types and situations in life ,but it certainly has slowed their ability to open their mind and wake up.

The church hypnosis does not have to be perfectly seamless obedience to EFFECT people sometimes,some way. And despite what others might say,I think these mega churches have done rw America one hell of a con job. Something in them prompts them , to close the mind at hearing certain ideas, it closes the mind not slowly but like a steel jaw trap..


It uncannily looks to me like a hypnotic negative auto suggestion is at work is triggering the reaction and reinforcing "new behavior".

Something Like a how under hypnosis a compulsive smoker gets an auto suggestion to feel nausea when he wants a cigarette to help himself not want to smoke. likewise a fundie RWer triggers off on certain words and they close their mind because they don't want to become a liberal.

All this fundie belief system ties to very primal things in human beings lives and unconscious.Things like love acceptance, trauma,avoiding suffering,elitism and status,powerlessness, winning and not have to struggle for survival.All these topics are fertile ground for some serious auto suggestions and NLP. RW gatherings audiences do similar stuff in response to leadership..

Just observe them for yourself..Go observe people in a fundie church (get out if you feel trance or urges you can't explain like to sing or raise hands and do what the crowd is doing)and then later go watch a stage hypnosis act and watch the audience it's creepy how they act.

[mitchum]

123. KICKING THIS THREAD FOR THE VALUABLE INSIGHT AND...

INFORMATION IN YOUR POST!
Perhaps those hopelessly optimistic posters on this thread (after reading your information) will see what an arduous task it will be to counteract a lifetime of brainwashing.

I am very glad that you were able to eventually get out of that mindset, but I fear that you are a rare bird indeed.

[bobbieinok]

128. this should be a separate post....

charismatic/pentecostal/ Assemblyof God/mega-non-denominational churches

start with at least 30 minutes of praise and worship songs....these are short, sort of like choruses, and are repeated many times, sometimes changing keys.....

Benny Hinn and others ...... in their services they start singing/humming 'anointing, anointing' (changing key, changing volume) for a very long time

a group mind begins to develop

a charismatic from Germany said that this type of service is avoided/doesn't work in Germany......Germans won't do it; if Germans want this type of service they go to Holland

I did however see this type of 'praise and worship' near hypnotism in some German charismatic churches.....mostly ones strongly influenced by Kenneth Hagin ministries (many of his works were available in German translation)

[AspenRose]

116. REPUBLICAN REHAB

My favorite Randi Rhodes bit.

We're going to be counted on to be 'counselors' for 'Republican Rehab' more and more....

"I used to be a Neocon"
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/oneill1.html

[XemaSab]

125. Can I steal your

"Howard Dean speaks for me!"?

[ucmike]

129. i met an anti-bush republican the other day. shocking.

i was working at his house and noticed a copy of "smartest guys in the room" and asked what he thought. turns out he made a career of corporate banking and had dealings with the enron traders. he knows some of the guys named in the book.

we talked for a few minutes and he finally said, "i've been a republican my whole life and i'm furious that these crazy, right wing, neocon, christians...." he paused to make sure his wife wasn't listening, then finished "SCUM BAG, MOTHERFUCKERS have hijacked the party and sold most of the dummies in this country a bill of goods. they're not conservative and they're not republicans, either."

he went on to say that most of the people in the white house are evil and that bush is dumb and evil. he went on to describe how the ethics have dissappeared from the corporate offices and that ethics is not even an issue for some corporations anymore and that its because they are taking their leads from the whitehouse and the "republican network" of corporate heads. he said that corporate america is setting itself up for a disaster, solely based on greed. he said he retired when he did because he was the last of the old-schoolers at the company and he had enough when several traders in his company got caught making trades that they knew no one would profit from except themselves.


he finished by telling me that he got a call from the rnc for donations and he hung up on them, later he got another call from someone else at the rnc asking why he hung up. he said he started tearing into the caller, and told them they'd never get another cent from him and he'd never vote for a major repub canidate again.

i was dumbfounded.

[dec1549]

131. Another Bush voter regrets it.

I know two who do. Unfortunately, their regrets don't get bush out of office. I get so tired of people who say, "if I'd only known." Give me a break. If you'd ever had the gumption to read anything that maybe wasn't exactly what you had already decided -- maybe if you'd had the courage to listen to other people -- maybe if you'd had the curiosity to research something, then I might have a little sympathy or understand your regret. However, because of your blindness, almost 1700 US soldiers have died and over 100,000 innocent Iraqis have died. We're talking individuals here. But the losses expand outside of those numbers because almost every one of them had mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, wives, husbands, children -- the list goes on. So, Bush voter, it takes a lot more than regret -- take in a child who has gone hungry because of Bush's policies. Volunteer at a VA hospital whose funds have been cut. Volunteer at a day care center that has been cut from Head Start. Volunteer at a rest home and take care of seniors whose benefits and care have been cut because of Bush's budget cuts. Run for school board against a "creationist" or "intelligent design candidate." I hate Bush regreters. Those are the very people who have gotten us into this fix. And they're the ones who are going to say (as I heard tonight), "Well, Bush is a moral man. He didnt' commit adultery. And if someone lies in their private life, they'll lie in their public life." And I'll say as I did when I heard that "Bullshit." I don't care of Bush is a good husband or a good father. I care if he is a good president. That is the job that he was hired(?) to do and that's all I are about.

yours in -- whatever

[Broken_Hero]

136. Well at least she...

is starting to see the damn light. All the Bush supporters i talk to will die willingly on a sinking ship to show their support of our monkey in chief. Just the other day, i was talking to a friend of mine from Ark, and she was complaining about the high prices of gasoline, and I responded, well, what did you expect? You voted for Mr. War for Oil man. She responded by saying its not Bushes fault its all these damn enviromentalist, liberals, and etc...

But on the other hand, at least some people who voted for Mr. Monkey in Chief are starting to wake up and smell the reality.