Once and for all, what do you blame for Kerry's defeat?

[UdoKier]

And no copouts about "stolen elections" or "media whores". We all knew there would be a hostile media and massive election fraud and it was on Kerry & Co. to win big enough to overcome that.

So, where does the blame lie?

[notadmblnd]

1. his failure to fight the fraud in Ohip

and not contesting the election.

[musette_sf]

23. Yep.

and though I like Mr. Kerry, I am a little bit put off by Friday's "I'm gonna talk about the DSM on Monday"... then after nothing of the sort, receiving a Kerry email on Tuesday asking for support for children's health care/insurance.

Nothing wrong with the children's health care issue, but don't shoot your mouth about DSM and then go back to the same old meme you've been pushing since November 3.

[Katidid]

46. I'm with you ... What ever happened to Kerry having discussions

with the Senate this week about the DSM? Does anyone one know?

There were a lot of people holding their breath on Monday - ready to cheer him on .... then pftttt ... nothing happened.

Let Down and Disappointed Again.

[gWbush is Mabus]

53. IT'S the MEDIA STUPID - CNN, FOx, NBC, ABC, CBS, MSNBC, newspapers

[1956]

57. The week isn't over yet!!!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. How do you fight the fraud in Ohio when there is no possible way....

...to detect how the software in the voting machines manipulated the votes?

Without some kind of paper trail, there is no way to determine how people actually voted...all that remains is the final tally compiled by the software in the voting machines.

[notadmblnd]

74. you need to look at the work done by a couple of DU'ers

Search on Truthisall's election graphs and analysis. Heddafoil is another Du'er who is involved. She worked with Ralph Nader in New Hampshire if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps if these people had Kerry an Co.'s support. It would have gotten the attention it deserves.

[MN ChimpH8R]

70. That's it

in a nutshell.

[EFerrari]

2. Black box voting. And I'm really surprised this wasn't a choice!

Is it too late to add?

:)

[UdoKier]

9. That's not an option for reasons outlined above.

Also, it's just called "election fraud" now. Bev Harris is a freeper.

[EFerrari]

.Tell me about it. lol

Okay, then I'll vote now.

[marions ghost]

76. What reasons did you "outline above?"

You categorized 1. election fraud and 2. media whores as a copout therefore they are "not an option?" Isn't that exactly the spin-doctoring we've been fighting so hard around here? I've seen election fraud up close and I can tell you--it's real and it's a factor. But people will deny, deny, deny.

As my dear old Repuglican uncle used to say, "I don't think we can do bidness..." This poll is rigged just like the 2004 selections.

[UdoKier]

83. They are a copout because they were a fait accompli.

I don't deny that those are important factors, but they are not the only factors. To say that it was just the voting machines and that the Kerry campaign couldn't have done better is self-delusion.

I wish we could run with an objective media and voting machines that actually accurately record our votes, but we don't, and we all knew that by the 2002 elections.

I actually would like our next candidate to be media savvy and have very tight message and image control, while staying very far from Bob Shrum and Mary Beth Cahill. Perhaps you don't mind inept presidential campaign teams sabotaging their own candidates, but I do.

[marions ghost]

88. You say (quote)

"I wish we could run with an objective media and voting machines that actually accurately record our votes, but we don't, and we all knew that by the 2002 elections."
---------------------------------
SO?--I would argue that
1. A very SMALL percentage of the population knew that elections were stolen in 2002. After the 2004 mess it should be obvious to a LOT MORE people that widespread fraud was probable (there are lots of other ways to cheat--it's not only auditless DREs). But I don't think ANYONE (including Kerry) was prepared for the degree of systematic bias with cumulative effects which occurred. It certainly paralleled the Ukraine and they got a whole new election.

2. The media played down the vulnerability of the pathetic voting system in this country before, during, and after the elections in very obvious ways (too numerous to list--you probably know what they are). And the media's exit poll flim-flam was outrageous by most everybody's estimates. (Even my Repug relatives got that at the time!)

3. So if some of us knew it WAS possible and then we saw that it DID happen...doesn't that CHANGE the way we view the election of 2004 and every other election to come --until that faraway day when we are assured of complete transparency and citizen control of the system? What do you want--sweep it under the rug--AGAIN?!? Personally I'm not getting suckered again into "what could we/he/they do better?" in the campaign.
-----------
ALSO --I don't have ANY faith that "tight message and image control" can be accomplished with the media gone AWOL (or as I think Hillary Clinton called them--"MIA" (Missing In Action).
------------
You did not present this as a choice of all probabilities--you CHOSE which ones to call "copouts." Pretty skewed for a poll question. If you wanted to start a discussion on factors OTHER than fraud or media --then how about doing that without CHARACTERIZING those obvious no-no choices and building in bias to your poll?

It is MUCH worse to sabotage the voting system of this country than for Campaign Directors to bungle and thus sabotage their candidate's campaign. One is a crime, the other is bad judgment. Talk all you want about the mistakes of Cahill and Shrum, but that is not the big picture of Kerry's loss.

You'll see what happens in the next selection....;) wanna make some bets?

[Zorra]

56. Yep, that's the one. n/t

[LSK]

64. thats my choice

Exit polls dont lie.

[Walt Starr]

3. He had morons running his campaign who did nothing after being sucker

punched by the Swiftboat Liars for Bush.

[sasquatch]

12. Somebody should do to them what they did to that whistleblower guy-

from Los Alamos Nuclear Labs.

[Kazak]

4. Uhhh...election fraud, maybe...just maybe...

Could be. :shrug:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. Not jumping all over the Swift Boat Liars immediately.

Which might have been due to the terrible strategy of Shrum and Cahill.

[orwell]

13. Agree

That and BBV.

Over the long haul it will be BBV. Outraged citizens have got to do away with this because the powers that be won't.

[Coastie for Truth]

27. Absolutely correct

And some of the Swiftie names on their web site and ads had dirty skirts and unclean hands --- they covered up friendly fire deaths of other Swifties------------->>>>

They covered up Swiftie friendly fire deaths
1. http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/WEBCUTTERS/Point_Welcome.html
2. http://www.aug.edu/~libwrw/ptwelcome/PointWelcome2.html
3. http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/WEBCUTTERS/Point_Welcome.html

Lying buddy fockers.

[BamaGirl]

49. I agree

That should have been dealt with immediately. Plus bbv.

[knowbody0]

6. i blame the press

just like what they are doing to Dean right now. everything out of context, amplifying only bits, re running the flip flop bs, and all the swift boat crap.

[blm]

20. DING, DING, DING. I said the similar in another thread.

The press is doing EXACTLY to Dean what they did to Kerry. They edit out all the parts of the speeches that speaks most to the issues and they take out soundbites meant to divide the Dems or marginalize the leadership.

[Johonny]

61. me too

The free press spent more time on the sift boats for lies and no time on the lies that got us into Iraq.

[blm]

7. GOP controls most media and most voting machines. Where is that choice?

.

[sandnsea]

8. The left looks in the mirror???

That ain't fuckin' likely to happen. Cute game though.

[derby378]

10. His push to link semi-automatics with terrorists

It cost him Southern and Western states that otherwise might have sided with him.

It neither breaks his back nor picks his pocket if I own an "assault weapon." Same goes for Feinstein, Schumer, etc. Lose the AWB or you'll lose 2006. Make your choice.

[UdoKier]

18. Are you serious?

The AWB is popular across the board and was barely mentioned during the campaign? Are you sure you're not confusing your pet issue with one that most people are interested in?

[derby378]

26. "Barely mentioned?"

For a while during August and September last year, you couldn't hardly sneeze without running into a Democratic lawmaker or commentator going on about "deadly assault weapons" and how they threatened the very future of the Republic.

If New York and California want to ban assault weapons, let them. Leave Texas and the rest of us out of it.

"It's freedom, baby! Yeah!"

[sandnsea]

73. See how it works?

This dumbass cost us how many votes by running around pissing about the AWB. You think that didn't happen in rural parts of swing states? For you it was your $87 billion or whatever. For this idiot, it was his rigidity on the AWB. You keep adding up people with their ideological twist on Dem policies, and you end up with a loss of 2% of the vote, and more. Right or left. Because Democrats don't know how to look at the candidate, the party platform, and execute it. Just for 3 fucking months every 4 years. Pretty damned pathetic.

[Atman]

11. Other: Election Fraud

No other explanation makes sense. Not when you know the facts. And, there is no point is saying Kerry could have won big enough to overcome it. The easiest algorithm to write would be one which continually keeps Bush in the lead, no matter how many votes Kerry got. It would have been dangerously foolish to do it any other way. Skimming. Sorry you don't believe it happened.

[UdoKier]

24. No. Until we have demo majorities in both houses...

...election fraud will be a fact of life in this country. Much like women and minorities have to work twice as hard for half the pay, democratic presidential candidates will have to score blowout victories just to squeak by. I was sure of that last fall, but I also thought we could do it with a president as horrible as Dumbya, but unfortunately Kerry didn't seem to want it bad enough.

[Atman]

31. And, WE didn't want Kerry bad enough.

unfortunately Kerry didn't seem to want it bad enough.

I sure can't argue with that. I don't think he ever really wanted it. I think he was helping out his fat bro.

[MindPilot]

35. umm...would that be "frat" bro? eom

[Atman]

42. LOL! Oops...maybe I meant Phat bro?

nt

[jobycom]

14. An activist media campaigning for Bush. nt.

[benburch]

15. ELECTION FRAUD in both Ohio and Florida.

The fix was in, and they stonewalled until nothing could change.

[clydefrand]

16. The bitterness caused by the Swift Boat liars.

And people not wanting to change presidents during a war even though this idiot caused it. I hope like hell they are learning their lesson. I have a few people that I want to say "I told you so".

[MadHound]

17. I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Kerry campaign

They weren't aggressive enough in going after Bush, and time after time they let Bushco dictate the direction of the campaign, what with the whole flip-flop issue, Swift Boats, the issue of Bush's service record, etc. etc.

I will grant you that they were fighting an uphill battle against the media, but damn, they should have gone on the offense, early and often. Instead the campaign hunkered down in the trenches and played a defensive game.

[Mojambo]

19. Election Fraud in Ohio and Florida

Which was obviously the Republican plan from the start.

Even as poorly as the Kerry campaign was run (and it was BAD) they still would have beaten an incumbent as weak as Bush.

[troubleinwinter]

21. ELECTION FRAUD.

[LisaM]

22. The media

lack of coverage when he was campaigning, feeding frenzy on stuff like the Swift Boat crap.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. His vote for the war in Iraq gave Bush a free ride.

Not to mention his support for the occupation. His whining about "the way the war was pursued" just made him look weak, or more to the point exposed weakness.

And, his obvious pandering to the right only landed him a goose.

[madrchsod]

28. ohio coingate

the republicans knew that the whole fucking thing would collapse if the coin scandal information was released in sept of 2004...two months before the election-the governor knew-follow the money.

[Vinca]

29. Other

The Kerry campaign made many mistakes, but I honestly don't think he could have won under any circumstances because of the situation with the voting machines. When you press a vote for Kerry and you get Bush, something stinks to high heaven. This hasn't been resolved at all. I expect the Republicans to remain in power until we have honest voting.

[DinahMoeHum]

30. 1, 2 and 4, but especially 1. . .

I don't want an 8-(or is it a 9?)- time loser like Shrum involved in ANY political campaign.


:kick:

[MindPilot]

32. the campaign should have taken a nothing to lose strategy

Kerry had so many opportunities to come out swinging, and he didn't. He should have answered the swift boat liars immediately. He should've taken Bush to woodshed in the debates (like asking him directly about the "lump") and the campaign shouldn't have agreed to the debate rules that favored Bush.And in my mind the BIG glaring failure to point out that
9/11 HAPPENED ON BUSH'S WATCH!

But above all, Kerry needs to learn to speak to real people in real language and at least act like he gives a damn.

[The_Casual_Observer]

33. The successful campaign to persuade the fundies to come out

in force against Kerry on the basis of "moral/social issues" same sex marriage, abortion, guns, and Kerry's opposition to Vietnam.

[EFerrari]

34. Election fraud. And I'll tell you why

Before the election, it was my hope that we could win big enough to outdo any fraud they thought up, too.

Then I woke up and smelled the coffee.

The fraud was calculated on our margin. So, *first* they calculated how big we would win, THEN they shifted the votes.

It's just like my computer Scrabble game. If I'm 25 points ahead, the Maven's last move is worth 50. If I'm 50 points ahead the Maven does 100.

WE WILL NOT WIN ELECTIONS UNTIL OUR VOTING PROCESS IS TRANSPARENT. And everything else is b3llshit, a waste of time, recrimination and worse, a waste of the precious resources of this community.

end of rant

[Old and In the Way]

36. Election fraud.

When your candidate loses, then you'll "get it".

[noamnety]

37. "stolen elections" and "media whores"

Sorry you don't want to hear it, but that's it in a nutshell. Either one of those on its own would have been a miraculous thing to defeat - but we did. Combined, it cost us everything - and they go hand in hand. We were yelling about the election fraud while the media was sipping lattes reporting how smoothly the elections went.

[marions ghost]

79. BINGO

the combination of election fraud and media cover-up was lethal.

Sure there were other factors at work, but without fair elections it's just impossible to get a clear picture.

[LuPeRcALiO]

38. other

I believe Kerry won by somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-7 million votes.

Bush "won" the election on account of ruthless, well-coordinated, well-rehearsed vote stealing on every conceivable level.

[Hubert Flottz]

39. Voter fraud nationwide!

Not a cop out but the truth!

[longship]

40. Strategery

I firmly believe that if Kerry had taken a strong anti-Iraq position that alone would have been enough to push him enough to overcome the Repug election manipulation machine.

Of course, he should have also made a strong stance against the lies, deceptions and dissembling of the RW. He should never have allowed the Repugs to control the debate.

He could have taken down Bush hard for his violating of the rules on the debates. Kerry should have done so right in the middle of the debate when Bush would not have had a chance to get a canned response from his handlers. Can you imagine how Bush would have fallen apart under such a situation as he would be getting frantic messages from his earpiece while simultaneously being under the gun of live TV cameras?

"Your last response is bothersome, Mr. Bush. It almost appears that you are being prompted. What is that bulge on your back under your jacket?"

[natrat]

41. fraud

maybe skull and bones bullshit

[sinkingfeeling]

43. Kerry won the election....therefore, no defeat!

[undeterred]

44. Fraud and too many DU polls on Kerry

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. OTHER: Election Fraud!!! How often does this have to be discussed....

...on DU before most of the posters here will finally "get it"???

Some of you folks are so eager to point the finger at your fellow Democrats that you will do anything to avoid thinking about how the GOP has rigged every election since 2000! Guess what?? That's EXACTLY what the GOP wants us to do!!!

If you knew that there would be massive election fraud in 2004, how in the heck was Kerry supposed to overcome that???

Let me make this real simple for you...
-----------------------
It's Election Day and during the day and early evening 55% of the voters vote for the Democratic Party candidate for president...45% vote for the GOP candidate.

After the polls close and the humans go home, a subroutine in the electronic voting machines go to work switching votes from the Dem column to the GOP column.

Later that night, the GOP candidate is declared the winner with 51% of the newly tabulated vote.
-----------------------
Here's the point that seems to be escaping you...IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE YOU GET TO THE VOTING MACHINES IF YOU DON'T CONTROL THE SOFTWARE THAT MAKES THEM WORK!!!

[1956]

59. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!

WELL SAID!!!

[DanCa]

47. I blame the Vatican (not a slam on catholics)

I believe that the conservative catholics in the church did a number on this election. It is concievable that there where ever a church polling place was they refused to count kerry ballots. I also firmly believe that Vatican had something to do with Kerry's concession. Excommunication is a horrible thing - trust me they did it too me and I still have problems with it.
Note I am not slaming anyones religious beliefs I now attend Episcopal mass weekly but unfortunately the conservatives do have alot of political muscle. Let me know if you think its time for a tin foil hat.

[Protagoras]

50. Fraud and all of the above.

I don't think any one of those things would have sunk him alone. But it was a multipronged strategy from the beginning. And Kerry failed to adequately respond to any of the issues.

Death of a thousand cuts. And it was still close.

[Blue Belle]

51. Ken Blackwell wasn't an option??

I chose Cahill and Shrum, but if I had to put it on one guy, it's be Blackwell. Shrubs toadie did well... probably thinks he'll be governor now... :eyes:

[lonestarnot]

52. Fucking cheaters!

[Sick_of_Rethuggery]

54. Other: FRAUD

and possibly voter suppression.

[dogday]

55. All The Polls and The Odds Makers and Zogby Were Wrong

What are the chances of that? I smell a whole lot of cheating going on, there are investigations a foot everywhere still to this day...

[dreamcollector]

58. Voting machines and other dirty tricks

How can anybody believe the Americans were dumb enough to give him another go? Eighty percent of Canadians hate Bush. Even with a lying mainstream media to slant things in his favour more than half of Americans must hate him even more than we do. He didn't "win" in 2000 and he didn't "win" in 2004. No way! Well it's all water under the bridge now. He got away with 9/11 and stealing two elections and an illegal war and war crimes. I have outrage fatique now. Ho hum. Time to forget about America and cultivate my garden. That was what Voltaire did when he realized what evil was afoot in the world. I'll be happy till monsters like Bush and Co realize that wee have all the water and most of the oil in Canada. Then I'll hightail it to New Zealand to escape the bombs.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

60. He never intended to win.

I've said it before and I'll climb a clock tower and shout it again with a megaphone: KERRY WAS A RINGER.

[yashuryabetcha]

68. I think you must be right

otherwise why didn't he go after all the fraud and bullshit? It's a sad sad world

[johnaries]

62. Election Fraud. no "copout" - reality.

[Straight Shooter]

63. Vote tampering especially, aided and abette by manipulation of the media.

Shrum and Cahill, however, need to go in their respective caves and never come out again.

[blm]

65. How do you win big enough so rigged machines won't matter, if your votes

are registering for the other guy?

You do realize that 80% of the electronic machines are directly controlled by GOP loyalists don't you?

[UdoKier]

67. Of course I do.

But I also am aware that a majority of all machines are still not hacked Diebold/ES&S units...yet.

[blm]

71. It's not JUST those two manufacturers.

The trouble is in almost ALL the electronic tabulators and WHO controls them.

[saltpoint]

66. Printed media, broadcast media, cable news, propagandists disguised as

pundits.

And I also blame the thick-headed red voters who stood in long lines in the rain for many hours to cast a vote for a ticket that has routinely lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and any number of other things.

For those voters to endorse that kind of public citizenship is a goddamned disgrace.

[Rex]

69. Corporate media

I blame the MSM for causing more damage to America than even the BFEE. The MSM has had it in their power to DEMAND honest answers from political candidates. Their active refusal leads me to believe they are in collusion with the BFEE in taking over America.

[derby378]

72. He ran a fairly weak campaign, too

Howard Dean was all fire and brimstone and getting the grass-roots Democrats motivated, but Kerry's effect on the 2004 campaign was like popping a handful of Valiums. Just another business-as-usual campaign. Ho-hum.

[geniph]

75. Wrong choice for VP

Don't get me wrong, I like Edwards fine. But he brought nothing to the ticket that wasn't already there, and he didn't bring a whole lot of votes, either. He wasn't even going to win his Senate seat back.

Clark should have been the VP choice. That ticket would have won. That would have defused all that SwiftBoat horseshit right there.

[ComerPerro]

77. A lot of factors, one of the biggest being the Swift Boat Liars

Of course, there is also fraud and the shadow of fear that Bush kept playing to after 9/11...

[slackmaster]

78. OTHER - Trying to be everything to everyone rather than who he really is

My relatives in Iowa and Kansas were very much turned off by Senator Kerry's make-believe hunting trips, tromping around in camouflage and sporting a shotgun on one hand while advocating gun bans on the other hand. I have uncles and aunts and cousins who laughed at his antics, held their noses, and voted for Bush mainly because we're at war and he was the incumbent.

[hollowdweller]

93. I agree. He was so afraid of losing a vote he didn't stand for anything.

[LittleClarkie]

80. Skip number 3, and I'd say all of the above

Mostly I think it was a 9/11 thing. I think the Dem Party as a whole was going to have trouble getting ANYONE elected. He could have gotten better support in the media from his fellow Dems (like being prepared when you go on air) Shrum and Cahill should never run another campaign.

Kerry said some things he shouldn't have, but as with Dean we see that's there isn't much wiggle room on our side, while it's quite spacious over on the Republican side with the media. Bush could have just stood and drooled at the debates and they wouldn't have spun him as a winner.

But I'd rather focus on 2006.

[edhopper]

81. I blame Karl Rove

for stealing the election. If the true results were revealed we would not have threads like this.

[corbett]

82. More Votes For Kerry Than Clinton In 1996 And Gore In 2000!

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud_review.html

[iconoclastic cat]

84. Let's see, there's fraud; spam and fraud; fraud, fraud, fraud,

spam, and fraud. There's also fraud, fraud, fraud, spam, fraud, fraud, and fraud.

Vikings: Fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud!

Man: But I don't like fraud!

[UrbScotty]

85. Media and vote fraud. Media and vote fraud. Media and vote fraud. (nt)

[KnowerOfLogic]

86. "Stolen election" is not a cop-out. Doesn't mean there weren't

many things kerry did wrong or should have done better, but if you're writing off the possibility of election fraud i think you're being a little naive.

[UdoKier]

89. I'm not. I have no confidence in the results of any election these days.

But there is precious little Kerry could have done about that other than protesting the outcome. He could have done a lot better on message and image. I see no point in considering factors that Kerry couldn't do anything about, like a whore media and rigged voting machines.

[GreenPartyVoter]

87. BBV. Exit poll swould have confirmed that the final vote tally

was messed with because everything on the ground said that Kerry was in.

[sellitman]

90. Election Fraud is the ONLY answer.

If you think not then you are deluding yourself.

[YvonneCa]

91. Kerry wasn't defeated...Kerry WON.

[hollowdweller]

92. Kerry didn't respond to Bush attacks & He failed to offer specific plans

for getting out of Iraq or anything else.

[seabeyond]

94. perfect example in manipulating polls, the obvious exclusion

he won, election fraud caused the loss

[Dee625]

95. There were many reasons, but Kerry & co. just didn't do the job

There was definitely election disenfranchisement and fraud and just plain incompetence.
You can pin some on media spin, smear campaigns, etc.

But the main thing I noticed in my own little part of the world was that Kerry was a candidate that was hard to sell to voters.
Why do I say that? Because in the primaries, I was taking on moderate Republican friends and relatives one by one and had them ready to vote for Dean.
After Kerry was dubbed the Dem candidate, they all said to me that though they had been willing to vote Dean, they just couldn't vote for Kerry. Average people just didn't identify with him. I also noticed they were buying the flip-flop meme * was pumping out.

The campaign never seemed to put much effort into improving his image with Joe America. I know in our city * visited twice. The second visit was set up by the campaign to be almost a town celebration. Bring the kids, free admission, see the president, etc. Kerry never came within driving distance. (Oh yeah - I'm in Ohio)

[lonestarnot]

96. Once again Cheaters!

[quaker bill]

97. The unfortunate victories in Iowa and New Hampshire

Once "electability" became the rationale for selecting the candidate, it was all over but the crying.

[minnesotaDFLer]

98. it was a combination

bad strategy, he didnt want it enough, we got beat, they cheated. however, democrats did rally aruond him honorably, plus he just didnt deserve it.