I'm just gonna say one thing about this Dean stuff.

[Plaid Adder]

From what I can tell, both his supporters and his detractors here react to things like his recent crack on the Republicans as the party of white Christians as if he's just a plain-spoken (or, alternatively, loose-cannon) guy telling everyone what he really thinks and letting the chips fall where they may.

While in no way impugning Dean's credentials as a plain speaker/loose cannon, I just want to point out that the first and most obvious results of this kind of apparently candid comment are that the head of the Democratic National Committee is now regularly making headlines, and that questions like "well, IS the Republican party just a bastion of scary white right-wing Christian nuts who want to send everyone to re-education camps, or was that unfair?" are now being regularly debated.

This framing you've heard so much about, that's what this is, people. You can argue about whether it's a good idea but don't assume it's spontaneous. He's figured out that controversy gets more press than rolling over and playing moderate. Same thing with Reid. "Well, is Bush a liar, or was that unfair?" You see how it works? You plant the question, and then the media will try to shovel it over, but it never really goes away. That's what they did to us with the SwiftVets thing, and it's probably good someone on our side has figured out how to do it to them.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[LittleClarkie]

1. Sort of a "any publicity is good publicity" point of view?

It's one way to make the news when nobody wants to cover you much, that's for sure. Interesting take. Thanks!

[radfringe]

119. yes

because it does make the "spews" feed.

how often is there press coverage of any Dem who talks about issues, policies or proposals? next to nothing. On a recent C-Span broadcast - it was pointed out that the Dems in Congress have set up almost daily press conferences, how many "journalists" attend - NONE

Dean's comments are "incendiary" - and they make the news. If Dean just stood there talking statistics, proposals and ideas - would it be on the news? I doubt it.


Yeah - the lap dogs and rubbericans (rubberstamp repugs) are spinning Dean as a loose cannon, that he's blowing it -- well, his words are getting out there and people are listening past the repug spin.

We talked awhile ago about "drip...drip...drip" or "Smoldering Embers" and wonder when the rest of the people were going to wake up? The "drip...drip...drip" is turning into a trickle and those embers are heating up.

the anti-incumbency mood is growing steadily .... Dean is validating people's anger

Congress - Job Approval Ratings
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls.html
Poll Date Approve Disapprove Spread
RCP Average 5/12 - 6/5
Approve 34.3%
Disapprove 53.3%
Spread -19.0%

[Career Prole]

2. Yooooooooooouuuu said it!

:applause:
:woohoo:
:yourock:

[Dora]

3. Insightful and reasonable

Recommended for Greatest Page.

Anyone else care to join me?

[wryter2000]

5. Yes!

Great idea! Off to nominate.

[mzmolly]

6. done.

:hi:

[Cha]

16. You betcha! Thanks,

I always forget to nominate something I like until I see someone else mention it.

[wryter2000]

4. Hear, hear!

While in no way impugning Dean's credentials as a plain speaker/loose cannon, I just want to point out that the first and most obvious results of this kind of apparently candid comment is that the head of the Democratic National Committee is now regularly making headlines, and that questions like "well, IS the Republican party just a bastion of scary white right-wing Christian nuts who want to send everyone to re-education camps, or was that unfair?" are now being regularly debated.

Right on!

I'd also like to add that to have Dean speaking bluntly and other Dems coming along and saying, "I wouldn't have put it that way" is not a bad strategy.

[Eloriel]

46. And WHEN has the head of the DNC ever been "news" anyway

He was news BEFORE he was elected, he's been local news since as he's barnstormed his way around the country raising LOTS of money for state organizations, and now he's national news. I think his newsworthiness alone speaks volumes about his ability to get the Party on the Move, so to speak.

[eridani]

78. Sort of how Malcolm X made Dr. King look so reasonable. n/t

[Lone_Wolf]

100. The other Dems should be the ones clarifying Dean's insights...

They should be putting there own spin on it instead of trying to downplay it. IMO, it would be more effective if an Edwards/Biden/Pelosi/etc. said something along the lines "Dean has a point. The RNC's platform seems to attract fundamentalist Christians."

[Tamyrlin79]

112. Rather than "attract" I'd say "cater to" n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

107. In the immortal words of Lyndon Johnson

"I know he's not (a pig fucker), but let the bastard have to DENY it!"

[Somawas]

7. "Well, is Bush a liar, or was that unfair?"

could be better framed as "Is Bush a liar or is he a lying sack of shit?"

[Plaid Adder]

9. Well, who knows, maybe that's what Dean plans for an encore. n/t

[wryter2000]

10. LOL

I like yours, too. :woohoo:

[JRob]

62. LOL!!!

[mzmolly]

8. That's why our party is so frikken stupid. We don't know strategy when we

see it. This is good strategy, I don't care who "distances" himself from Dean. He's saying what needs to be said. As for those who say "he doesn't speak for the party" I imagine that's part of the plan.

This way we get our message out while ...
we're havin' our cake and eatin' it too. :evilgrin:

[Cha]

11. Thanks, Plaid!

Dean has been getting some airtime that he wouldn't ordinarily get..

It's always a risk sticking one's neck out but Dean is the guy who will do it.

[noise626]

12. Very good point :)

The media are like dogs. Keep throwing the ball and they will chase after it all the time. Meanwhile, the seed (the Repub Party really doesn't care about you) get planted, the truly crazy right wing types will get the opportunity to be even crazier, and the Doctor laughs, looks on, and waits..........

pax
ant

[tex-wyo-dem]

13. Exactly!

Couldn't have said it better.

Historically, liberals try to discuss or argue issues in intelligent, measured ways. Although this is the way things should happen, rarely does this approach attract any attention. The RW figured this out long ago.

[Larkspur]

14. As one who has intentionally written and had published provactive LTTE's

I can tell you from personal experience provactive speech/writing is what gets many people to react. The main purpose of provactive speech is to get people to think beyond the "ruts they've burrowed into their brains."

Dean certainly plans on stirring up things and the debate inside the Dem Party and in this nation. That is one thing Dean excels at. What Dean has improved upon since his primary days is how he handles the Media "backlash" to his remarks. He has done a good job of staying on the offensive against the Repukes while he's clarifying his remarks and promoting the Dem agenda.

[wryter2000]

22. Amen to that, too

Dean certainly plans on stirring up things and the debate inside the Dem Party and in this nation. That is one thing Dean excels at. What Dean has improved upon since his primary days is how he handles the Media "backlash" to his remarks. He has done a good job of staying on the offensive against the Repukes while he's clarifying his remarks and promoting the Dem agenda.

I've been very happy with the way he's reacted. I especially loved "When I said Republicans have never worked a day in their lives, I meant the leadership." It's kind of like saying, "I'm sorry I said you're a lazy, bloodsucking sumbitch."

[Eric J in MN]

15. I agree. It's good for the public to be

reminded that there is an opposition, no matter what the spin.

[UrbScotty]

27. Right on (nt)

[understandinglife]

17. Simply, yes.

And, recommended.

And, hopefully, Skinner will post this on the DU Homepage.

Peace.


www.missionnotaccomplished.us - We support Apian's goal of 10,000,000 signatures on Congressman Conyers letter by June 21, 2005; make it happen! http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/6/214643/6438

[roguevalley]

18. I agree. I don't believe he is just 'talking'. He's too smart for that.

he has a goal in mind, becoming a voice for the majority of us that want to kick their butts.

[Straight Shooter]

19. Being oh-so-polite and oh-so-civil doesn't get our message out.

If we can get them angry enough to talk about it, at least people are talking about it. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. Just ask Hannity. (Although he's not squeaky, actually, he's screechy.)

Sometimes you've got to smack people upside their head and then say, "Now that I've got your attention ..."

[clydefrand]

20. You are right on, Plaid! My thoughts exactly. Those Dems

who say Dean isn't speaking for them are really wishing they had the balls to speak so plainly, but they are like Bush with regards to the Swift Boat Liars, when he said he didn't like any of the negative campaigning and that it should stop on both sides. Like hell he meant that! He was so happy someone else was saying what he couldn't say in public!

I'm glad Dean is doing it. Wolf Blitzer tonight tried his best to get Rep. Jane Harman to say something negative about Dean. She, like the republicans, skirted the issue once completely and talked about how Dems had worked hard on a bipartisan bill for security for this country. When asked again, she said Dean had been elected to head the DNC and then went right back into her monologue about how Dems had worked on security. I love it! Let them squirm a bit now.

Just heard that Dean is becoming a "divider" like Bush has become instead of a uniter of the Dems.

[paula777]

21. Well I certainly agree with this. We need someone controversial to

get the Dems some attention and let everyone know that we have spines too. Dean is one of the few dems in leadership that has a spine and he's not afraid and never has been afraid to speak the truth. He's one of the few that spoke out against the war when all the other idiots were voting to give Bush power.

[Upfront]

26. Good point.

I will never forget that Dean stood along against this war. He was right then, and he is still right. Thank you Governer Dean.

[Cha]

35. Dean has come out

on top of everything he's tried to do..except the Prez thing but read my sig line:D

[tinrobot]

23. The Meme Machine

Once phrases like that get reported, they get a life of their own.

So much more effective than being 'nice.' Sadly, nice does not make news anymore.

[fooj]

24. Beat them at their own game. Perfect.

:patriot:

[sofaman1]

25. If this is a planned strategy

why have Biden, Edwards and Richardson distanced themselves from Dean and his comments? The reaction that I've read doesn't seem to be a discussion about whether Bush is a liar or not, but rather whether Dean is being too strident and too mean-spirited...This is my first post here, sp please bear with me.

[RetroLounge]

29. What you see in the media is not discussion, it's spin

:hi:

Welcome to DU!

RL

[sofaman1]

32. Thanks for the welcome

What's your take, though, on Biden, Edwards and Richardson distancing themselves?

[RetroLounge]

37. Don't buy the spin. Read what Edwards actually said.

Richardson however is milqutoast.

As for Biden, he's missing this:



RL

[DemReadingDU]

38. I don't think they are distancing

It's the media mis-quoting what is actually said. Here is a DU post that says it better than me...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3794246

[paula777]

33. Because Biden, Edwards and Richardson don't have spines and

are afraid of controversy or speaking up for what the dems believe in. I think they shouldn't have said that. Makes it look like we aren't united, you know. Welcome to DU sofaman1

[postulater]

50. Welcome sofaman1

All opinions are helpful!

[lyonn]

51. Good cop - Bad cop thing maybe? n/t

[Missy Vixen]

68. Welcome, Sofaman

>why have Biden, Edwards and Richardson distanced themselves from Dean and his comments?<

At the risk of angering others who might be reading this thread, the three men above have their own agendas. Haven't all three been mentioned as Presidential candidates in 2008?

Julie

[Rowdyboy]

28. You're the first person I've seen express that thought sensibly, in a way

I could grasp and comprehend. Thank you for allowing me to see the other side of an issue I had thus far been unable to.

Now I understand why you're so respected as a writer. Your comments are concise, to the point, and an excellent explanation for Dean's comments.

Thank you for furthering my education.

:thumbsup:

[AuntPatsy]

30. kick so perhaps the dem leaders will take note when skimming this forum

[savannahana]

31. right to the point - excellent!

Thanks, Plaid Adder, for cutting right through the BS to the point.

Nominated :thumbsup:

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[InternalDialogue]

34. Building the lexicon

Agree or not with what Dean said and how he said it, the upshot is that Dean's words, his topics, his phrasing, his framing, are part of the discussion. Now, they may hold water with people or they may not, but they establish the debate.

You're spot on about the Swift Vet lies. No one had envisioned Kerry as anything but (at the least) a dutiful and effective soldier, and no one truly examining the public record and private recollections of him and those around him would suspect anything else. But take a wild-ass idea, package it, and put it out there. The idea of him as a traitor wasn't even on the table, then all of a sudden it was.

Another point -- as long as there are Democratic leaders like Howard Dean to speak up and speak outside of traditional (read: civil but spineless) patterns, Democrats are at the mercy of anyone more aggressively producing discourse, including baseless lies. In other words, the media has been squeezing the wonks in DC for comment on Dean over the past week or so -- that means they're not actively pushing the Republican spin on their own issues. Dean effectively stole the use of the media machine from Karl Rove for a few days.

Democrats have been scrambling to control Republican-fueled arson for so long... it's time to go on the offensive and make the right look defensive and desperate.

[Triana]

36. Yep. My sentiments exactly. Dean should keep talking and talking and...

...talking and talking and talking....


:evilgrin:

[SmokingJacket]

39. I hadn't thought of it that way -- though I support Hunky Howard

no matter what.

Well, all right, not if he ate babies. But close.

Finally someone is doing something different, eh? It sure beats Kerry's strategy, whatever the hell it was.

[tavalon]

65. Republican babies or Democratic babies?

Just kidding, just kidding, really, just kidding. :)

[Vincardog]

40. You mean like was it Treason or just incredibly stupid?

For aWoL to lie us into the immoral illegal illegitimate occupation in Iraq?

[Vincardog]

41. How about 9/11 did They LIHOP or MIHOP?

[Cleita]

42. Good point.

I believe this is what Harry Truman did. He was plain spoken and let the chips fall where they may. Many believe him to be the best Democratic president we ever had.

[Eloriel]

48. And Truman is Howard Dean's political hero

Really. He's said that numerous times. Not just for speaking up, but for doing the right thing as well.

[bvar22]

43. Winning Strategy

Howard Dean and the Democrats need to JUST KEEP ATTACKING. Force the Republicans to play DEFENSE. One of the few perks of the Minority Party is that the Party in Power must DEFEND their policies. The Minority Party NEVER needs to DEFEND anything. Just Move on to another attack! It would be POWERFUL if the Democratic Party or even some members of our Party would publicly support the Chairman of the Party. Amplification would only help. If a Democrat can't support him, they should make their comments in private to the good Doctor.


If the Republicans or the CorpoMedia start whining...Attack some MORE.
If minor mistakes are made, the record can be corrected BY THE INDIVIDUAL WHO MADE THEM if HE/SHE SO DECIDES. NO Democrat ever NEEDS TO COMMENT ON WHAT ANOTHER DEMOCRAT HAS SAID!!! When the CorpoMedia TalkingHead tries to force a Democrat into that position, all the Democrat has to do is chuckle and say, "You'll have to ask Chairman Dean about that. I wasn't there, so I can't comment except to say that he is an excellent Party Chairman!"...and THEN launch an attack on the Republicans. NEVER let them rest.

It is the Republicans who SHOULD be on the defensive EVERY FUCKING DAY!

John Kerry should have LAUGHED OUT LOUD at the Swift Boat Liars and called them a bunch of DISGUSTING LYING COWARDS NOT WORTHY OF HIS TIME (case closed)....and then DIRECTLY ATTACKED AWOL for NOT having the COURAGE to DO HIS PART!!!

GOOD on YOU Howard!!!!

WE need to keep sending messages of support to HIM from the grass roots that frightened the Establishment Dems into throwing us a bone. The MORE THEY try to undercut him, the MORE WE NEED to SUPPORT HIM, and the MORE we need to let the Establishment Dems know that we don't like it when they DIS the DOCTOR.

Howard SPEAKS FOR US!!!
YOU dis the Doctor; you DIS US!!!

[Generic Other]

44. Sage wisdom from the Checkerboard Snakecharmer!

BTW, I do so love your nickname. And your DU columns.

:applause:

[bigwillq]

45. Thanks, Plaid!

Well put (as always)!

[tallahasseedem]

47. Wonderful and sensible post.

For once we are making headlines.

[geniph]

49. We have a bingo!

Hammer-nail-head, PA.

[bpilgrim]

52. agreed

they are playing political jujitsu and it's WORKING :bounce:

:toast:

peace

[WLKjr]

53. 'bout damn time someone said it like that!

I wish we could just stop acting like a bunch of wimps and stop playing nice with the right.


fight back dammit!

[Dr Fate]

54. Then he should have said "The UK memo shows Bush lied about the war."

That would have stirred up "swiftboat" style controversy with possibly less DEM infighting as a result.

[Adelante]

57. Just this

:toast:

[kohodog]

55. Finally the Dems have a spokesman with an edge

McAuliffe kept quiet and sold us down corporatre lane for corporate money. Clinton sold us down the road with NAFTA and more. The Republicans lie like troopers and people in this country accept it. Dean needs to make statements that will fight these bastards. MSM would totally ignore him if he didn't have an edge. Let them focus on his comments (which I believe will help energize the base), while he travels and organizes red state dems.

[Arugula Latte]

56. Yeah. Being in the constant reactive mode hasn't worked so well.

You'd think more Democrats would clue in.

[jonnyblitz]

58. good to see all these greatest page recommendations

for this thread! :thumbsup:

[Aflac]

59. The DNC chairman is not a simple attack dog

You have some shdowy figure say what needs to be said not a public figure. The Democratic Party actually has to run in states that like W. Some Red State Reps have to say that they like W or even worse they may like W. Seriously a public figure shouldn't do dirty work. Biden and Richardson have some class and are actually TACTFUL POLITICIANS. Dean's a good fundraiser but he needs to shut up sometimes.

[salin]

120. In a "usual world" - I would agree, sadly in this media climate

very few dems, esp "shadowy figures" aren't given a mouthpiece to get word out, let alone get talk going. There are few who can do this right now.

DNC Chair? Or a possible presidential candidate, senate candidate (which we need all to be elected), or house candidate (which we need all to be elected.) If those are the only ones who can get the mike (aside from Ried) - then which is best to get the talk going? In this case it might be that being an out in the public figure - but not one who is going to damagae a future run (he has said he has no plans for 08) - then... maybe not a bad strategy - in these times.

In old Washington/mediaville, I would have agreed with you.

[lyonn]

60. Great explaination Plaid

Framing - gets the media talking. This is the most press the Dems have gotten in some time, of any consequence.

[tk2kewl]

61. Also showing he won't back down. I said it -- I meant it.

Spine, no flip-flop. Same with "Reid's Bush is a liar"

[JRob]

63. I like it! still breaking the fund raising record too...

Republicans and RW Religious leaders piss on people all the time. I certainly hasn't hurt them much...

Dean's a smart fellow, I like to believe he's pulling the levers.

Gettin' a little ugly is better than the alternative.

[tavalon]

64. Amen

I just wrote this very same thing (albeit not as eloquently) on another discussion.

[jillan]

66. Dean forgot to use the word RICH

I wish he would have said

Rich white Christians!

:dem:

Go DEAN!!!!

[donheld]

67. Dead on

We've played nice too long.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

69. Mom just gave me Lakoff's, Elephant in the Room

It helped to clearly simplify the radrights modes and methods, which is frightenly advanced, cohesive and evil.

Howard Dean is one of my holy trinity. Boxer and Conyers makes 3.

[Schema Thing]

70. My thoughts exactly. Hey, did we love Galloway, or did we not?

If we did love Galloway so much, then why the fuck do we complain when someone over here has the guts to be in-their-face?

Are all Republicans white christian nuts who never worked a day in their lives? No, but that's not really the point, is it? Would an audience anywhere in america "get it" if a comedian made a crack about the same? The answer is yes, because republicans are "the party" of white christian nuts who never worked a day in their lives! Dean didn't just pull that out of his ass, and people of all parties in America know that.

[Eloriel]

71. One good

:kick:

[Fire Walk With Me]

72. There is always the danger of becoming what we fight against

But some leveling of the playing field is certainly nice. Well-said!

[Singular73]

73. Since the MSM gives moral equivalance to every point of view...

...bastardization of the Republican party can only be helpful.

I mean, fuck, when you have Liddy on opposite of Woodward, you have a REAL problem.

[Mr_Spock]

74. Exactly Exactly Exactly

All of the people who analyze on a daily basis apparently can see no farther than the nose on their faces - this includes liberal talk show hosts as well. This is EXACTLY the sort of overblown rhetoric that will get the more moderate people asking the questions as you describe above. I say more of it - I say he's not elected so he can't be voted out - let him be a lightning rod - let him bring up new topics for the American people to think about & debate - I think it's a good idea.

[Sparkly]

75. Good point. n/t

[Borgnine]

76. There's just not enough times this thread can be recommended.

Everyone on DU should recommend this sucker.

[saracat]

77. And while everyone obsesses about this crap, the real news is ignored!

Dean is distracting everyone from what is important. Insulting Republicans is not as important as getting publicity for constructive things like DSM. All this flap just makes me sick. This is stupid PR. If it is PR at al and not just stupid on all sides. I want a serious discussion of real issues, but I guess that isn't going to happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. nah the issues don't get ignored

and by the way, the Liberal Democrats were very reasonable and never raised any hell in the 1930s when the other band of merry radicals rose to power...you may have heard of them... Nazis, our boys today are neo nazis... but to each his own

By the way, have you sent your obligatory smackdown to the press? (DSM)

[saracat]

87. Obligatory slapdown done, and I contributed a media piece of my own.

Did you do your smackdown?

[jonnyblitz]

80. many of us can walk and chew gum at the same tiime

you should try it.

[saracat]

85. It isn't about us. It is about the media and the rest of the world.We

already know what is going on. The media, and all the people who keep ragging on this crap are the ones being distracted!

[jonnyblitz]

90. i think you need to re-read the original post nt

[saracat]

91. I did so. I still think this is really bad PR. On all sides.JMHO.

[jonnyblitz]

99. thats cool.

we agree to disagree then.

[AntiCoup2K4]

81. Get over yourself

I mean really.... :puke:

[saracat]

86. The same to you!

[rman]

93. Republicans' theocratic corporatist powergrab is not newsworthy?

Could have fooled me.
I mean, it's about time people in high places start to point it out.

[Tigress DEM]

101. If Dean can get away with this, then the MSM will risk more.

The problem is that the majority of the populace doesn't even know there is a controversy.

This gives US out here the opportunity to talk with people we don't know. I just made two people's day yesterday talking to them about the Downing Street Memo and it's implications for Impeachement.

Besides, one of the best meters to me of Bush's wanning power is the fact that Jay Leno is making cracks at him.

Sometimes we're on a frontal assault, sometimes we're like the Indian Mystic fools telling the truth is such a way that it can't? be taken seriously... or can it? Like the adder says, it looks like it's working and Dean is big enough to take the heat.

I'd prefer reasoned discourse, but we are dealing with the inmates running the asylum now, so maybe we'll pile on the sarcasm and exaggerate to prove a point, but it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission some times.

And I don't see that both can't go hand in hand. We stand up and keep asking for REAL news, after all as the consumers WE have more power than Dean or Bush. Those people who place ads still want someone to buy their stuff.

We the mainstream DEMS say, well, maybe the gulag or Dean's statement were an exaggeration, but there is a kernal of truth there.

I think it's called playing both sides against the middle and if it works it may be our new strategy, which is still better than no strategy or using the rethuglican way of lying through our teeth.

(On edit. WOW - maybe our DIVERSITY really IS our Strength.)

[AgadorSparticus]

82. great insight. I absolutely agree with you. It's savvy, ballsy, and

effective. LOVE IT.

[WilliamPitt]

83. You changed my mind about it

You're right. I tossed this up earlier today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3814848

...but I'm wrong and you are quite right. I'm sitting here playing checkers. The chairman is playing chess.

Damned well said.

[valis]

115. Kudos for changing your mind and saying so in public!!!

It reflects open-mindedness.

[hfojvt]

84. I think it plays to other stereotypes as well

"Do Democrats really hate white people and Christians?" may be the question asked when Dean seems to insult white Christians. Plenty of white Christians have been voting Democratic for a long time and it does not help to increase their numbers to suggest that Republicans will better look after their interests.
This is bad publicity precisely because it plays right into the "Democrats are anti-Christian" framing. I would like to see him hammer home that Republicans policies are only good for the top 5%. For 95% of the country, it is in their self interest to vote Democratic regardless of skin color, religion or sexual orientation, etc. He needs to unite more people behind a Democratic banner, not divide them.

[EFerrari]

88. Exactly.

And I am just LOVING IT!

:rofl:

[bdot]

89. Dean has been watching The Daily Show.

Remember the clip where they point out that all you have to do is ask a question to get people to believe it's real.

[stickdog]

92. Exactomundo, PA

Couldn't have screamed it better myself. What's funny is that it took me until the third "outrageous" comment to figure out what Dean was up to.

What's even funnier is that the media can't help itself and seemingly has no choice but to play along.

[soleft]

94. This just sparked a conversation about John McCain with my boss

Me: Wow, what a great insight about Howard Dean

Boss: What?

Me: Paraphrasing OP

Boss: Hmmm, then he's not insane like John McCain

Me: What do you mean?

Boss: He flies into rages, I don't think he's electable as POTUS

Me: Really? I mean, I know that's been lampooned on SNL, and it's something the Bush's were really pushing in 2000, but it's true?

Boss: Oh yeah. Everyone on the inside knows he has an incredible temper and things just set him off into these extreme rages.


I don't know if he really knows something or he's just informed from the whisper campaign, but I thought it was interesting.

[dpbrown]

95. Spot on.

Catching headlines and planting seeds is what it's all about.

[theboss]

96. I don't think Dean is making the right kind of headlines

If the debate is, "Is the Republican Party a White Christian Party and the answer happens to be 'yes,' what happens?" All the White Christians in the Republican fold feel emboldened. The six non-white Christians leave the Republican Party. And the white Christian independents go to the Party. And we become a permanent minority. I simply don't see how making "White Christian" a pejorative can help any leader unless they are in the Nation of Islam.

However, I don't even think those are the headlines Dean is making. The headlines I see him making are, "Is the DNC being run by someone who is totally bat-shit crazy?"

Maybe I'm poisoned by living in DC, but a lot of Dems here are a little terrified of the damage Dean can do.

Of course, scaring the DC establishment may be the goal of the 22-year-old Dean supporters across the country. But scaring the straights rarely results in any kind of electoral triumph. Ask George McGovern.

[Tigress DEM]

102. As a candidate for pRes, Dean could hurt us with this stuff...

However, Rove got BushCo in power and he is definately off his rocker.

The rethugs are billing themselves as gaining the minority vote and giving them high level positions. However, those positions are like overseer on policies that destroy. BushCo is only using the minority presence in their party. They say "bend over" and see what I want you to see or take a walk, like Colin Powell had to.

DEMs hate to "pull the race card" because, dammit, by now there should be no stupid race card. People deserve respect regardles of race or creed - period. Still, we are accused by our silence while the rethugs are engineering this country for a new day of elite vs peasants. And you know who is going into that peasant class even if they have to illegally take every stride foward minorities have made to do it.

Sometimes the ends justify the means and looking foolish to get into the news at least isn't a dishonorable strategy. The rethuglican lock down on the mainstream media must be broken.

[stickdog]

110. So you think that almost all white Christians are bigots?

Do you really think the average white Christian looks to associate himself with organizations that are 98%+ white Christian?

Because that is the definition of bigotry, you know. And in my experience, even irredeemable bigots don't like admitting their bigotry.

And when you are talking about scaring the straights, do you mean as opposed to gays?

[wryter2000]

97. Oh, gawd

I watched the CBS Evening News last night with what you'd said in mind and almost fell out of my chair laughing. They gave Dean several minutes to repeat his message. Hell, they even repeated it for him and then gave him an opportunity to expand on it.

When was the last time someone saw Terry McCauliffe given such coverage? Dean's crazy like a fox.

:applause:

[Tigress DEM]

98. The DEMs are playing our own game.

Amnesty International got on MSM by the gulag quote.

The rep even said, "Now, you wouldn't have had me on here if I hadn't said that, would you?"

Fools for Democracy, why not?

[ewagner]

103. Plaider

I tried to avoid all the "Dean is ___________(insert your own word here)" threads yesterday so I didnt' get to your post until today...

I think you're closer to the truth than anybody....although there is a nuance to what Dean is doing that I haven't figured out yet...

To those who say Dean is a Bombthrower ....well... keep on throwing Doctor!

[patcox2]

104. You give him way too much credit.

I suppose the scream was all thought out and planned beforehand too?

[stickdog]

111. People can learn from their mistakes and even use their tormentors

tendencies to their advantage.

[Tamyrlin79]

113. Uh, no.

But, as everyone knows, it was entirely a media creation because of the mike used. They replayed it and beat it into the ground for no good reason. I do think that that incident is where Dean learned much of the lesson he is now employing to our benefit.

The scream certainly caught them off guard, and Dean had no answer ready and didn't know how to react to it.

This time, he has his answers ready. Except, now, Joe Biden & Co. don't have theirs. This strategy certainly has room for improvement on that score.

[patcox2]

123. Oh, sure, Dean is the savior, look at his incredible success.

Governor of a tiny state, and then the worst presidential primary performance of anyone on record. Couldn't win a damn thing, could he? Oh, wait, did he win the primary of his own state, even?

He is a loser. Never will be elected anything, no use arguing it, just watch, call me in 10 years. Howard who?

[Tamyrlin79]

124. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

1. he was elected lieutenant governor.
2. he was elected governor.
3. he was elected as DNC chair (though by an admittedly small number of people, but at the urging of a very big number of people across the country)

I supposed you don't count the last one, and dismiss the first two because it was a "small state", as if that's somehow less important. Less prestigious, maybe. But, to say he "will never be elected to anything" is clearly wrong, because he HAS been elected. And, in fact he DID win the primary of his own state, by the way.

Savior, no. But the best damn leader we've got right now? Absolutely, with Barbara Boxer and John Conyers close on his heels.

[leQ]

105. wow, i outta get out of LBN more

that was well said plaid adder. it's time we shovel a little of their shit back at 'em.

[Zenlitened]

106. But we liberals are supposed to be better than them!

:sarcasm:

Heh heh. Well SOMEBODY had to get in the obligatory troll talking point!

Go get 'em, Dr. Dean! If saying "republicans are douchebags" gets you air time and print space to explain WHY republicans are douchebags, and to go on at some length describing how everything they're doing is bad for America, an affront to our nation's ideals, a disaster for all of us as citizens... well, bombs away, then.

Bare knuckles, bruising language -- use every technique you need. The situation is that dire. The crisis is that real.

[stanwyck]

108. Careful what you ask for

Funny how we've all been asking for the Dem. leadership to show some fire and take no prisoners attitude to combat this evil dictatorship we've been handed..and then, when someone, does, all the namby-pamby make polite people are offended and worried that we're not being "nice" enough. Wake up. We're facing people like Rove and oil-fueled Swiftboat Liars for hire. We're up against huge gouts of money. Billions. Bent on the destruction of all things liberal. They want judges. And school boards. And legislation. And science.
Dean is mad and isn't going to take it anymore.
We shouldn't be complaining. We should be cheering.

[VOX]

109. Every Democrat and progressive should be such a loose cannon.

Good analysis, Plaid. Right on the money! :thumbsup:

[radio4progressives]

114. Concur... kick! n/t

[Walt Starr]

116. He painted a HUGE RED TARGET on his chest

and while the Republicans shoot at this decoy, the real targets slip in their own back door appearing to be radically centrist the whole way.

[Donailin]

117. Yebrent said the say thing yesterday here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1840015

and like I said yesterday; if that's the case it's fucking brilliant.

We all need to let the DNC know of our approval and encouragement for MORE MORE MORE <----Rebel Yell!

[TorchTheWitch]

118. regularly debated by who, how and where?

While in no way impugning Dean's credentials as a plain speaker/loose cannon, I just want to point out that the first and most obvious results of this kind of apparently candid comment are that the head of the Democratic National Committee is now regularly making headlines, and that questions like "well, IS the Republican party just a bastion of scary white right-wing Christian nuts who want to send everyone to re-education camps, or was that unfair?" are now being regularly debated.

Sure it's framing, but it isn't framing what should and needs to be framed. Apparently, the strategy is that what REALLY needs to be said (and that won't offend the average Repuke who works for a living and is an average normal Christian) will come out later... but will it? Have we forgotten that the MSM is not on our side and has been busy doing their assigned job of painting Dean as an offensive nutcase since he arrived on the scene? Our experience with "later" has always been a small blurb buried in the back of the newspaper which obviously doesn't help us (and hurts us), and with the state of our MSM, it's going to be the same again with this. This kind of strategy works with Repukes BECAUSE they're Repukes and control the MSM. Someone please let me know when "later" happens this time, and point me to the small blurb in the back of the paper where it may or may not appear.

The only people debating whether or not the Repuke party is catering to the scary white Christian nuts are the ones whose eyes are either already open or have been beginning to come open, but most importantly, also recognize that what he said MEANT that he was talking about the Repuke scary white Christian nuts and NOT the Repuke average working normal Christian... and the comments from other Dems certainly didn't support what he DID say nor could they use the opportunity to focus on the Repuke scary white Christian nuts without being accused of putting words in his mouth. So, at THIS point, we've pissed off the Repuke average working normal Christian whose eyes had begun to come open, and they'll never see or hear anything about what type of working Christian Dean MEANT because (just as the MSM has always done) that part will once again be a little blurb buried in the back of the paper or not there at all.

No, I don't agree that it was part of the strategy for other Dems to make comments that they don't support what Dean SAID without mentioning what he MEANT, so that people will debate what he really meant "later", but honestly are concerned that he pissed off the Repuke average working Christian, and knowing the sad state of our MSM, "later" isn't likely to come or be seen/heard by those people if it does.

I like Dean, and I like that he's outspoken and loud, but he NEEDS to clarify what he means. If he had just said "The GOP is catering to the scary white Christian nuts, and those people who haven't worked a day in their lives are part of the GOP, not the Dems". That would have been just as (if not more) inflamatory for the MSM to jump on in their pursuit of following their orders of painting him as an offensive nut, and we wouldn't have to wait for a "later" that's not going to come to clarify that this is what he meant. And other Dems could have commented that they thought he spoke to "harshly" or whatever but backed up the substance of what he said.

[bklyncowgirl]

121. Yesterday the Dems had a press conference and reporters were...

literally fighting to get in the door. I mean seriously, according to Wonkette the Fox guy really lost it.

Reid & Dean got to talk about issues and actually get covered. The media loves controversy. Dean gives them controversy. As long as he's speaking truth (or close enough) this could be a very good thing.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

122. Some of you young 'uns on this board

might not remember the early career of Newt Gingrich. He spent the 1980's saying the most outlandish things and scaring the crap out of the liberal Republicans. The Nelson Rockefeller wing of the party wouldn't even return the guy's phone calls, much less allow themselves to be photographed next to him. But then a funny thing happened.

He got lucky.

Jim Wright, the Speaker of the House, was involved in a shady deal where his supporters bought copies of his book "Reflections of a Public Man" in bulk and the royalties, of course, went to Wright. Gingrich, who a decade later would be involved in a nearly-identical deal, went ballistic on every news program. He made every wild accusation imaginable (some of them were actually true), and it caused just enough of a scandal to force Wright to resign.

From that point on, Republicans smelled blood in the water. With the right-wing noise machine coming of age, they began a full frontal attack on all things liberal and Democratic. For the next three House election cycles, they demonized the Democratic Party on every issue. So that when in his first year as President, Bill Clinton ill-advisedly proposed gays in the military, a national healthcare plan, a ban on assault weapons, and "midnight basketball," Gingrich and his now-army of true believers were able to gain control of the House for the first time in a generation.

Even though more liberal Republicans didn't agree with Gingrich or his tactics, they understood that those tactics were effective and the played an invaluable role by simply remaining silent. Many of them, including George Bush the Elder, changed their views on some social issues (like abortion) in order to remain in favor with this new majority.

Democrats can learn from history. I agree with PA that Dean knows perfectly well what he's doing -- and it appears that he intends to lead a full frontal attack against all things conservative and Republican. The only question is whether he makes this attack alone, or if his fellow Democrats are going to join him.

Cowboy up, people.

[pat_k]

125. I have a different take

I have a different take.

Sure, there is a "don't think of an elephant" quality to the hysterical response to Dean's remarks. As people listen to them freak out ("He said some Republicans don't make an honest living! What an insult! They do make an honest living!") they can't help but think about Republicans that don't earn an honest living (inherited wealth and Unearned Income doesn't evoke a picture of "making an honest living")

So, the hysterical Republican response keeps them on our turf. But, when the folks on our side respond to assertions that Dean is out of control (either by defending Dean or distancing from from), they are screwing it up! They are moving the game back to the opposition's turf (the bad Dean, maniac Dean frame).

I have NO PROBLEM with the Republicans' hysterical responses to Dean's remarks. That is good for us.

I have a BIG PROBLEM when Democrats respond to their hysteria directly. That is good for the oppostion.

When the spotlight is on us, we need to be using it to our advantage!

If you are interested in hearing more on this, check out this post and this one on Randi's blog.