If someone accused you of not doing an honest days work in your life...

[Radical Activist]

How would you react?

[CBHagman]

1. What brought this on?

I smell a story! Do tell!

[Radical Activist]

6. This is what Dean told millions of Republican voters.

It would be nice if those bashing Edwards for disagreeing with the comment would do some critical thinking about whether Dean's statement was useful or hurtful to the Dem Party.

[Tomee450]

33. Republicans protest too much.

Where were they when Dan Burton called President Clinton, a sitting president, a scumbag?

[Radical Activist]

40. Dan who?

Was he RNC chair? Are we no better than Republicans now?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

60. He said that?

I thought it was something about the GOP being a party of white Christians. Links please?

[minnesotaDFLer]

61. neither

id just walk away, fuck them.

[Bluebear]

2. I would say "Surely, you jest, I am a Democrat, party of people who WORK"

[LynzM]

3. I'd be peeved.

Planting tomatoes, throwing hay, chasing kids, teaching handicapped people, scrubbing pots, cleaning fish.... nah, none of that counts, I'm sure.

[gumby]

4. You mean like Howard Dean said about Republicans?

Just asking?

[Radical Activist]

7. Yeah, a statement like that tends to alienate people doesn't it?

I can't see how a statement like that does anything but hurt Democrats. It was a dumb ass thing to say and I'm tired of people giving Edwards hell for having enough sense to say so.

[UdoKier]

13. Edwards' comments were twisted by the media.

Edwards: 'Dean was right'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3805903&mesg_id=3805903&page=

[gumby]

22. But then again,

I KNOW the Corporate Media is working overtime to split the Democratic Party. So, I don't really care about ONE sentence that has been plastered all over the Corporate Media in order to goad me to get angry about Howard Dean.

I, for one, remember the 2 year Corporate Media War on Gore. It went like this: "Gore's a LIAR, Gore's a LIAR, Gore's a LIAR, Gore's a LIAR, Gore's a LIAR, Gore's a LIAR."

And before that, I remember the 8 year Corporate Media War against the Clintons.

I'm not participating in this MEDIA WAR against Dean.

PHOOEY!!!!!

[SouthernDem2004]

11. Yep, the spokesperson for the DNC is trying to spin it saying Dean

only meant the Republican leaders.

[JohnKleeb]

5. I would be upset

Especially if the accuser was someone Ive never met or even seen in my life in person.

[Radical Activist]

14. Yeah, it would piss me off too.

I'm sure it will inspire millions of people to vote Democrat in the next election!

[JohnKleeb]

17. It would piss a lot of people off and your poll is showing just that

[UdoKier]

8. I would tell them to go to hell, but I'm not a republican.

Many of them have never worked a day in their lives. Dean was right, though he should have said "republican politicians".

I've never understood how some repugs can berate liberals for their "laziness", and brag that they live off all these great investments in the same breath...

I suppose there are dome GOP voters who actually work for a living, but most of them are religious fanatics or racists. How the hell are we supposed to win them over?

[Psephos]

42. You should acquaint yourself with some actual statistics.

The typical (i.e., statistically average) repug voter is employed, middle class or lower middle class, and holds honest work as a core value. This applies to more than 3/4 of the party.

Lazy cliches about the demographic make-up of our opponents prevents us from avoiding dumbfuck blunders like Dean made.

I usually agree with what Dean says, and admire his honesty, but politics is not only what you say, but also how and when you say it. There's a time for Dean to be forthright (nearly always) and even scathing (occasionally), but he'd damned well better have something to show for it if he's going to take political risks with OUR political capital. Imagine this: I see an unattractive woman at the grocery store. I walk up to her and tell her that she's unattractive. Honest? Yep. The right thing to do? You tell me.

It's stunning to me that so many in our party don't know the barest minimum about how the game of politics is played to win.

Being perpetually pissed off is more of a disadvantage than an advantage when you are playing a game that favors cool, dispassionate analysis and clockwork execution. (See Machiavelli, Niccolo, or Rove, Karl.)

Peace.




EDIT: I generally consider doing other peoples' political homework to be not so different from buying a drunk a beer, but in this case, I'll make an exception.

Grab this pdf from the Pew Research Center and learn about the makeup of our opponents' party, as well as our own. Warning: this may be hazardous to cliche thinking.

http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/196.pdf

[candy331]

9. Why be so thin skinned about it, seems minorities are told that

as often as not.

[NYCGirl]

10. I'd say, "You're wrong. You must be talking about Republicans." NT

[librechik]

12. Whatcha mean "you?" Dean wasn't talking about average Republicans--

look it up, he was talking about "LEADERS"--

Freepers have taken this remark out of context and blown it up into a scandal. Dean can't help it when they lie like that.

If the average Republican isn't outraged at the mockery his Pukkke leaders are making of America, and furious at the thievery and corruption going on at the top, then he isn't paying attention. Did DeLay make an honest dollar in the last 16 years? I don't think so.

Howard is always getting screamed at for telling the uncomfortable truths. Fuck those who don't like that! The Doctor is IN!!!

[Radical Activist]

18. Dean didn't say leaders the first time.

I'm glad Dean correct himself later, but why should anyone expect Edwards to stand by a statement that even Dean won't stand by. Isn't that a little unreasonable?

And it isn't an uncomfortable truth. The Downing Street Memo is an uncomfortable truth. That statement was just mouthing off.

[Junkdrawer]

20. Only a lightning bolt of guilt larger than what struck Augustine...

would move any of the Republican gentry into a position of NOT oppressing the majority at every turn.

Not likely.

[Straight Shooter]

15. I would laugh. Better than being called a communist treasonous bastard.

Which is what I hear from the right wing about myself and my friends.

[many a good man]

16. If I were a rich corrupt Republican political leader

and someone said this it might cause me to rethink my ways, reconsider my values.

I were a poor average guy who voted Republican I might think, Yeah, these don't care about me they're just a bunch of scumbags.

If I were a radical liberal activist I would come to the defense of the good guys instead of parroting right wing spin....

[ldf]

27. what he said!

:thumbsup:

[Radical Activist]

34. If only

it had been clearly directed at just the Republican leadership. Sadly, it was not a well worded statement.

[mitchum]

19. Well, since I live in a capitalist society, I never have done an...

honest day's work. A near impossible thing to do in an economic system built on fundamental lies.

[fishnfla]

21. You are off base: this is a valid description of Repub leadership

they have no clue as to how it could be an insult, in fact they brag on it as a matter of pride. Consider Katherine Harris,out to buy the Senator's seat in this state: a political appointee from a hugely wealthy family, now buying votes and has not done a days worth of work in her goddamned life. Gonna be a fucking US senator, never done a honest days work in her life. Third generation republican to have lived that way

I have used the same phrase, within blistering effect, and and a common man's understanding, (think about it-think about it!) in dealing with a silver-spooner here in the FL legislature.

Maybe Dean should lie and not tell it like it is, whatever

[Radical Activist]

38. I guess the spin is that he only was talking about leadership.

I wish he had said that, and I'm glad he lated corrected himself by changing his comment to leadership. However, his first statement, the one getting broadcast to the average voter, said Republicans, not Republican leadership. That was a very dumb thing to say that only makes people less likely to vote Democratic.

[fishnfla]

47. Unless they work for a living and maybe agree with him

see some folks might go, "hell ya, true that!"

please dont use that word "only" because its not true what you are implying, and then you'd be lying

[Radical Activist]

50. So you really think

a republican who works hard for a living is going to say "hell yeah!" when someone accuses that person of having never done an honest days work in their life? That makes absolutely no sense.

[Psephos]

53. You've made good posts in this thread, Radical. n/t

[Radical Activist]

57. Thanks!

[BurtWorm]

55. Who cares?

How many times have Republican leaders insulted Democrats and gotten away with it? Who the fuck cares?

[libodem]

23. For people who are so afraid that someone will get something

for nothing ie 'welfare recipients' they sure wanted to get rid of the inheritance tax so their spoiled rich kids would never have to make an honest living...just another little piece of the hypocracy...and for god's sake why give anything back to the country which has afforded one such golden opportunities....

[Book Lover]

24. The Republicans who will be

insulted are never going to vote for a Dem, so who gives a fuck what they think? This idea about swaying repubs to our side is wrongheaded; we need to focus on the uncommitted folks, the folks who didn't bother to vote last year. *Those* are the folks who will be swayed by this rhetoric. The rest will never come to us. So why should we expend energy trying?

on edit: and what about the Dems we are losing from our party because Dem party leadership rarely ever opposes? We should be sending Dean flowers and thank you notes.

[Individualist]

26. Bingo!

I certainly don't care what those who are offended think.

[seabeyond]

25. taking this quote out of context. hearing in it the whole

it isnt nearly as offensive. but then that is what media has been doing huh. not fairly representing what dean was saying. look we can do it here on this board too. as well as any mouth media

[insane_cratic_gal]

28. As long as he's in the news

We are in the news.

They can't call Dems a bunch of snivling whining losers who get bitch slapped (though we do have some in our crowd that do!)

[gumby]

29. Read this (if you like)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3816437

Anyone can say anything on Al Gore's Internet.........

[GodHelpUsAll2]

30. I for one

am shocked beyond belief. How did we get someone such as Dean to as party chairman? How dare he wipe the mud off his face and hurl it right back at the Republicans! We need a smoother sweeter chairman. Someone who will tip toe around and kiss up to the oposition party. Someone more like Terry Mac. I mean look what he did for this party.

Oh yeah, he didn't do anything did he?

It amazez me at the people who constantly complain about Dean hurling out an insult or two at the oposition. Would you rather we stay sweet and loveable and in the MINORITY????

[Hand]

31. "Ah, would that it were true..." nt

[quaker bill]

32. Republicans do not support our cause anyway.

If this is all it takes to offend your sensibilities then you are hardly a radical.

Most radicals I have known have used far more harsh language to describe republicans.

Perhaps you are more of an "accomodating centrist" than a radical activist?

[Radical Activist]

35. oohhh...Now I'm hurt. You got me.

A majority of people voted for Bush last time. Thinking that we should win some of them over instead of insulting them doesn't make me a moderate. It makes me practical.

[Junkdrawer]

39. Many, if not most of us don't believe "A majority of people voted for Bush

rather, a majority of votes were tallied for Bush. And it is instructive to look at who did the tallying.

[Radical Activist]

41. Cop-outs don't help us win elections either. n/t

[Junkdrawer]

43. Paying attention to who counts the votes and how is anything but...

a cop-out.

[Radical Activist]

46. Even if Ohio was stolen

there aren't enough states that use diebold machines to swing 3% of the total US electorate, so either way Bush won a majority even if the election was stolen. We can whine or we can play smarter next time. Illinois is controlled by Dems, the votes are counted by Dems, and Kerry did worse than Gore in Illinois. We have to face the fact that we lost.

[Junkdrawer]

51. Diebold and ES&S count 80% of the votes. And that doesn't even...

include Sequoia.

Two voting companies & two brothers will count 80 percent of U.S. election using both scanners & touchscreens

By Lynn Landes
Online Journal Contributing Writer

April 28, 2004—Voters can run, but they can't hide from these guys. Meet the Urosevich brothers, Bob and Todd. Their respective companies, Diebold and ES&S, will count (using both computerized ballot scanners and touchscreen machines) about 80 percent of all votes cast in the upcoming U.S. presidential election.

Both ES&S and Diebold have been caught installing uncertified software in their machines. Although there is no known certification process that will protect against vote rigging or technical failure, it is a requirement of most, if not all, states.

...
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html

In an electronic system with as little auditing as ours, 3% is peanuts. I think they kept it that close so it would be "believable".

[Radical Activist]

54. That number is complete bullshit

I notice they don't site a source but the article does twice reference Bev Harris' book and I know how much credibility she has left around here.

[Junkdrawer]

58. ES&S alone claims 56% on their own website...

According to the company web site, Election Systems & Software, Inc. (ES&S) is the world's largest and most experienced provider of total election management solutions with over 74,000 systems installed worldwide. Over the past decade, ES&S has handled more than 30,000 of the world's most important events--elections. In the U.S. 2000 General Election, ES&S systems counted over 100 million ballots.” The company provides election machines for local, state and national elections: ““Based on the primary voting tabulation system installed within the United States, our customers represent approximately 50 percent of the precincts and registered voters in the U.S. ES&S systems have counted approximately 56 percent of the U.S. national vote in each of the last four presidential and congressional elections.” The company’s connections are also impressive. It was founded in Omaha, Neb., and Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) was chairman of the company when it was American Information Services. The founders were two brothers, Bob and Todd Urosevich. Todd Urosevich is currently vice president of ES&S. His brother Bob was head of Diebold Election Systems, another large election machine company based in Ohio, until a few months ago when he was quietly made Director of Strategic Services in Diebold’s McKinney, Texas, office.


http://baltimorechronicle.com/120904Burns.html

[zanne]

65. I says you have 1000 posts...

If it was lower, I'd say you were a disruptor. Whether or not you are, you sure sound like one.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

45. There's where you are wrong

A majority of the people who ACTUALLY VOTED! That is not a majority of the population. It's a majority of about half. Call me crazy but, does it not make much more sense to stop trying to sway those who are already republican and maybe just maybe go for the 50% that doesn't vote at all???? I know it's a novel concept but gee think of the possibilities 5-10% of that half that doesn't vote could make. But who am I? Just a simpleton that doesn't quite grasp the concept of tossing aside 50% give or take a few in favor of kissing up to one half of one half.

[Radical Activist]

48. Yeah I've advocated that and worked to make it happen.

All the same, nothing is gained by insulting millions of people who might vote for you. Nothing at all.

[quaker bill]

52. Thinking you can win them over

by parsing the truth and soft selling your message makes you an accomodating centrist. The results of the last few elections prove that approach to not only be impractical, but a testament to limp convictions. These are not the key characteristics of a radical activist.

People voted for Bush because they "trusted his leadership", because he is "strong in his convictions" (pigheaded if you ask me).

Strong and unvarnished rhetoric was once, not all that long ago, the hallmark of serious politics.

Republicans did not get where they are by playing nice. It is unfortunate, but hardly unpredictable, that you have not gotten it yet.

[Radical Activist]

56. The statement was not the truth.

Get back to reality. Most Republican voters have worked before and the ones who are hard working that Dean just insulted are the ones we're most likely to convince to vote Democratic. If you don't want to persuade people (which is what I thought we were supposed to do during an election) then we're never going to win again.

Maybe Dean can try to run a campaign by insulting as many people as possible but I don't think anyone will win that way. That's not moderate or radical, its just dumb.

If Dean has convictions let him call for a quick withdrawal from Iraq, push for single payer universal healthcare, mention the downing street memo, talk about CAFTA, or any of the many other vital issues we could use to persuade people but that Dean is silent on.

[quaker bill]

64. Most folks can understand things in context, even republicans

You on the other hand seem limited in this regard,

Who made the decision regarding how many voting machines to put in various precincts? Would that have been the voters we are trying to persuade? Or perhaps the voters we are trying to persuade were the working class folks who got to spend the 8 hours in line? (ding ding ding - some of them standing in line were republicans...)

The truth is that those who made the decisions were republican elected officials and I would wager more than a dollar that most have not worked a real job at any point or ever been at risk of not having a new car to drive..

I know you don't like Howard. But the statement was true and rather populist. You had better buckle up because if we want to start winning again, the rhetoric will have to get alot stronger than this. Reach back and try to rediscover the "radical" bit in your soul / psyche. (given you had such a thing)

[Book Lover]

63. No a majority of registered voters did not vote *at all*

Those are the people we should be going after, not the Bush voters.

[foreigncorrespondent]

36. I'd say...

...really? Come spend a day at work with me then. Then drag them off to work and show them exactly what hard work is all about. :)

[DanCa]

37. I am on ssdi

My sister a bush lover says that I should stop bashing the president because he's a great christian leader. And that I should be greatful for him signing my "welfare" checks. Its her words. I hate living with conservatives.

[tyedyeto]

44. At 52, I just received my Social Security statement for the year

I've worked for most of my life (took a couple of years off here and there to raise my 2 kids) but now I may never collect what I put into the program. Where the fuck is the justice in that???

No one can tell me I never worked as I have it in black and white directly from SS.

[H2O Man]

49. Have you been talking

to my ex-wife?

I'm retired, and when I do go into town to pick up a quart of milk, some people will ask me, "What do you do?" or, "Don't you work?" And they ask my son, "Has your dad hit the lottery?"

I'm not concerned with what other people think.

[WildEyedLiberal]

59. I'd sit back, stunned, and say, "Oh my God, you're right"

And then I'd vote for them out of sheer gratitude at having been shown the light. :P

[LSdemocrat]

62. Good thing we're not expecting contented Republicans to vote for us

[Bridget Burke]

66. So--where's the full context of this offensive comment?

Ernesto Rafael Guevara de La Serna (descended from the Lynches of Galway on his father's side) was not famous for timidity or cowardice.

"Oh, please--let's not offend anyone, We will be marginalized."

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

67. Dean needs to remember to speak clearly...

"Republicans in Congress" have never worked a day in their lives.