Mugshots of "alleged" shoplifters who ran over my friend John; now dead.

[liberalnurse]

3 Arrested In Hit-And-Run Mall Death
Man Hit, Killed In Parking Lot

POSTED: 11:22 pm EDT June 8, 2005

SPRINGFIELD, Ohio -- Three women accused of being in a stolen car that struck and killed a man in a mall parking lot turned themselves in to police Wednesday and were charged with murder, officials said.

Renada Manns, 24, Alicia McAlmont, 21, and Toneisha Gunnell, 20, all surrendered in Columbus, their hometown, said Clark County sheriff's Lt. Roger Roberts.

The women will be arraigned in a Franklin County court on Thursday, Roberts said. All three were wanted on unrelated charges, so it's unclear when they could face the murder charge in Clark County, he said.


http://www.nbc4i.com/news/4587366/detail.html


Here is yesterdays thread for reference:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3811205

[xultar]

1. WOW how effin sad to think of all the lives destroyed by such stupidity!

:cry:

[liberalnurse]

3. Stupid, selfish girls.....

I'm too angry to sound reasonable at this point. I know you feel my pain.

Thats to everyone.

[prolesunited]

2. I'm sorry for your loss

But do you have a point in posting these mug shots?

[Skittles]

12. probably a coping mechanism

go easy, proles

[ArkDem]

15. Yeah, look both ways before crossing when they are in the area.

[liberalnurse]

18. I like to share with my peers.

It also puts a reality flair to a senseless death. I shared the intial story yesterday......Today is an update for anyone who would be interested.

[Enraged_Ape]

20. liberalnurse is terribly upset

Her friend was murdered. Have you ever had a friend who was murdered? I have. I understand and sympathize.

Cut the nurse some slack. Remember who the real victim is here: the dead friend, and the friends and family.

[liberalnurse]

24. Thank you for the support.

I'm sorry for your experience of personal loss as well. A loss of a friend of 30 years by such a senseless act needs to be processed.

I think in general, we as the viewing public can become desensitized to reality trauma's....we tend to forget things a week later. I'm guilty of that as well. Such an event can evoke serious interpersonal reflection.

[wicket]

43. AMEN!

[JimmyJazz]

4. I am terribly sorry for you loss, especially because the whole

thing is so senseless. :hug:

[NJCher]

5. this is horrible

I'm so, so sorry, liberalnurse.

I've never thought about dying in a parking lot that way.


Cher

[lenidog]

6. I don't know what to say

Besides that I am sorry for the loss of your friend. Also that I hope they throw the book at them.

[Mizmoon]

7. I'm so sorry

I lost a good friend to a drunk driver - I have a slight inkling of your pain. I know there are no words ... no truly helpful words.

Breathe in deep - enjoy every moment of your life because who knows when it could come to and end.

Peace ...

[Demrock6]

I'm sorry to hear.........

That is a really sad story. My condolences to friends and family. I wish people like them girls would take even a second and think about what they are doing.

I hope they get put away for a long time. Why does the girl on top look giddy? I am pissed off now.

[Fovea]

8. You have my sympathy

and I hate to say it, but I hate the way this society is centered on teh automobile, as if you have no value if you don't drive one.

Look what that desire for prestige and status did here...

[livetohike]

9. My sympathy to you liberalnurse

This is so sad :hug: .

[goodboy]

10. what's that bitch in the top picture smiling about? (nt)

[Mizmoon]

13. She's an ignorant child

who has no idea of the pain she's cause or the pain she's about to endure herself. These girls will likely not see freedom again for a long time.

[liberalnurse]

16. She apparently feels no remorse......

Two of them "lawyered up" then turned themselves in....The driver remains at large. No doubt in a safe, undisclosed location....The driver could be essential to file the murder charges.

[lenidog]

17. I know!

What the fuck she and her friends just killed a man and she is smiling for her mug shot. Doesn't she realize just because she surrendered herself in another county doesn't mean that she wont be prosecuted for murder or manslaughter at the very least.

[liberalnurse]

27. I just heard on the 12 Noon News

that apparently, smiley's photo is the driver of the get away car...She is still at large. This must be an old mug shot form a previous arrest. She was also driving with a suspended license.

[slackmaster]

37. She's probably in denial

That will change some time between her arraignment and her sentencing. She'll turn into a blubbering child who has suddenly found religion.

[ConfuZed]

107. Sorry about your lost too liberalnurse n/t

[MADem]

11. They look like the shots of incoming freshmen in the college mail out

What's up with the top one? Nothing to smile about... I couldn't help but notice the careful phrasing--being in a stolen car--as opposed to DRIVING a stolen car--used in the report. I guess they have all decided to give up the 4th, not-yet-arrested, suspect as the driver in hopes of mitigating their culpability.

That certainly won't bring back your friend, though.

Sorry for your loss.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Why is that first one smirking?

Is this a mug shot or a yearbook picture?

[amandae]

19. I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend

How terrible and for his family and friends! Especially his mother and girlfriend who were there when it happened! No mother should ever outlive her child, but seeing her child killed like that would be agonizing. My thoughts are with his family and friends ...

I hope they catch the fourth suspect soon. I don't see how she could get away from this when the other three are sitting in jail. And someone should let the girl in the first pic here know how serious these charges are and wipe that smile off of her face! :grr:

[Kingshakabobo]

21. I hope they bring that smiling mug-shot up at sentencing

when she is shedding her lawyer recommended tears.

[liberalnurse]

26. I just heard on the Noon News....

that smiley's mug shot is the one still at large.....so this must be an old mug shot. She was also driving under a suspended license.

[Horse with no Name]

22. I'm sorry for the loss of your friend

However, you have extensive ties to the police department and you are an avid pro-TASER spokesperson for them.
I have no doubt that even if justice isn't served in court on these girls, it will be served in jail.

[theboss]

23. They'll get the driver

One of these girls is going to turn on everyone, probably the one with the smartest and fastest attorney.

I think your friend's picture should on the ceiling above the cot in each one's cell.

[Bridget Burke]

25. Why do you have quotation marks around alleged?

Even if you're quite sure they are guilty, that is the way our legal system works.

Of course, you wanted to ensure we know what "sort" of people did this...

[StopTheMorans]

28. exactly

:thumbsup:

[asthmaticeog]

29. Well stated. Thank you.

[theboss]

31. Luckily, this board is not the legal system

Just because someone is innocent in the eyes of the law does not mean they are innocent in the eyes of...well....me.

[Pithlet]

50. She lost her friend

After this, and the comments about the woman who lost her son to the pitbull, I don't think I will ever come on this board and discuss it if I lose a loved one. I don't think there is any racist motivation behind what she posted, and believe me, I'm the one to pick up on that sort of thing. She is devestated at the loss of a friend, who was run down in a parking lot. Why can't some cut her a break?

[liberalnurse]

51. Thank you Pithlet......

To be honest with you....I didn't quite read between the lines that well as it never crossed my mind......I'm shocked by the suttle inference...

It is what it is......They can check the news links I have provided. It includes shopping, exit and excape footage from the survalence tapes.

[geek tragedy]

67. Because she isn't a court of law and DU isn't the legal system? eom

[ls317]

30. Hit and Run Accident

I am going to guess that the first picture of the alleged suspect,is more that likely a picture from a drivers license.
The victims family will be in my thoughts and prayers

[Mairead]

32. I feel revolted by the racist classism in this thread. It's inexcusable.

No evidence has been offered that the death of that poor man was anything but an accident. We have three young Black women who are alleged to be petty thieves and involved in the accident in a way yet to be determined. Yet the crypto-rightwingers at DU are quick to convict them of murder.

That turns my stomach over.

[bicentennial_baby]

33. You said it!

Disgusting...and inexcusable, imho, regardless of what others may think

[H2O Man]

34. There was a thread yesterday

where the reactions were, for all intent and purposes, exactly what they are here. But it was before the race of the victim or the three suspects was mentioned. I think that indicates that the outrage is that the actions of three criminals resulted in the death of a person who used to breath, eat, smile, walk, love, and live. But he no longer breathes, eats, smiles, walks, or lives. Liberalnurse was one of his best friends, and there is absolutely nothing which would support the notion that her reaction is based upon any "-ism." Those who have expressed support for her, and outrage at the crime, have given a consistent message since the first thread was posted yesterday, before they were aware of any racial factors.

[slackmaster]

38. An "accident" that occurred during commission of a crime?

May not be considered an accident. Depends on state law. The incident would likely bring a charge of murder in California.

I have no sympathy for these alleged shoplifter/killers, other than the fact that they are entitled to a fair trial.

:nopity:

[friesianrider]

64. And a charge of murder it should be.

They ran over a man while driving a stolen car after stealing. What, did the poor man jump in front of them?

Making excuses for these MURDERERS is what's truly sickening. They deserve NOTHING more than a fair trial, and I hope they get exactly what they deserve.

[lastliberalintexas]

118. Yes, let's try them before we hang them

:eyes:

[lastliberalintexas]

119. The charge would likely be manslaughter

Or negligent homicide, which can also be used for a "normal" auto accident in which the DA wants to make waves.

Felony murder is a possible charge, but not that likely. And even the possibility of that would depend on the amount of that which was allegedly stolen, as it would have to be enough to make the shoplifting a felony.

[Kingshakabobo]

39. Give it a rest.

1. It's not an "accident" when you are speeding away from a crime scene, petty or not. Note: they are innocent until proved guilty

2. You are the one bringing up race.

3. Classism???:wtf:

[theboss]

40. We behave the same way yesterday before we knew the race

In fact, for some reason, I had the girls pictured as ditzy valley chicks like in the movie Thirteen.

[Madrone]

45. Amen.

I had the same vision you did - and was actually surprised to see these mugshots because they were completely opposite from my mental image.

Revolting classism and racism MY ASS.

Revolting is making excuses for someone that would run down another human being in a parking lot.

[theboss]

47. I don't know why I got that image

Maybe because it was a mall parking lot and the crime was shoplifting. That just sounds so....suburban.

[WI Independent]

55. and it was a Macy's...

I had the same image... although when I saw "stolen rental car" for some reason my image morphed into meth addicts... still white though.

I think most of us need a visual image... if we don't have enough info... we'll make one up and stereotypes are about all our minds have to work with in a situation like this.

Sometimes I am VERY surprised when I finally meet someone I have carried on extensive phone conversations with at work. I think my mind tries to make them look like someone who has a similar sounding voice/accent.


My opinion of what they did or proper punishment didn't change when I saw the pictures though.

[theboss]

48. I don't know why I got that image

Maybe because it was a mall parking lot and the crime was shoplifting. That just sounds so....suburban.

[liberalnurse]

60. I guess I started calling these women girls

in my reply posts......I apparently wasn't on my game at the time and probably feel a bit shocked by their ages too....You are absolutely right, they are adult women. It's hard to believe.

[formernaderite]

78. shoplifting rings are hardly suburban...

although shoplifting can be a petty crime, it depends on the amount stolen. These three screwed themselves by driving a stolen vehicle.

[rinsd]

52. Where's the racist classism?

Please do point it out.

Because for the life of me, I just can't find it.

[Mairead]

70. It's in the implicit assumptions

We have people all outraged here whose posting history shows them to be -to put it as charitably as possible- more deeply committed to 'law and order' than to the more thoughtful positions historically associated with Democrats.

Their baseline assumptions are that the playing field is level for everyone (and thus all perpetrators of crimes are equivalent in culpability) and that law equals justice (we see that in the simplistic idea that an accident isn't an accident if the law doesn't treat it as one).

The facts in the case are that an innocent person was struck and killed by a car. Unless it can be shown that the driver had a choice to hit or not hit the victim, then the killing was a factual accident regardless of how the law might treat it.

How many people believe that young Black women have anything resembling the opportunities that young white women have? I'd guess that probably most people objecting to my post secretly do, though they probably all also realise that socially it's not a good idea to own up to that racist belief. (I call it a racist belief because believing that the playing field is level conveniently allows the believer to shift the burden of responsibility for lack of socioeconomic success onto the shoulders of the victim. Blaming the victim is a classic rightwing ploy.)

I don't have time to go into the implications for crime of asserting that the playing field is level for all groups while systematically seeing to it that it stays not level. I'd hope that you already understand that. The racist classism in this thread is in pretending that there is no difference; that the motives and needs of young Black women--the group second from the bottom in access to opportunity--are the same as those of 'ditsy Valley chicks'.

[theboss]

72. They are criminals

They shoplifted, they stole a car, they killed a man. They all apparently have records.

You are stereotyping as much as anyone. You don't know what their home lives are like. Maybe they are all Middle Class. Maybe they are all Huxtables. You don't know.

I don't care what your opportunities are. You steal a car and hit someone, you are a criminal. I have no sympathy.

[Mairead]

75. "Maybe they are all Middle Class."

uh-huh. The statistics say the likelihood is vanishingly small.

But your self-serving assumption is part and parcel of 'blame the victim' politics. Throw the book at the young Black women who rob the clothing store and accidently kill one poor soul in the getaway, but put the White criminal psychopath who's a serial-killer-by-proxy on the cover of Time.

It's all part of the politics of racism, whether you're prepared to see it or not.

[ProfessorGAC]

76. You're Overreaching On This One Mairead

You are seeing implications where you want to see them and where they are not necessarily extant.

The thread yesterday made it abundantly clear that without knowing the race of the women, people found their actions repugnant. Now that we know the race, the actions should now be considered less repugnant? Why would that be? Aren't repugnant actions repugnant no matter the race of the perpetrator?

You're reading WAY too much into this. A guy is dead do the reckless actions of other people. A friend of that guy is sharing the grief. Give some thought to that and to the family of the dead man. See if there are any implications to that family.
The Professor

[Mairead]

84. I don't think so, honestly.

The thread yesterday made it abundantly clear that without knowing the race of the women, people found their actions repugnant. Now that we know the race, the actions should now be considered less repugnant? Why would that be? Aren't repugnant actions repugnant no matter the race of the perpetrator?

There are 2 'kinds' (or levels or something) of -isms. One says members of some group are ipso facto lesser. The other says that there are no differences and everyone should be judged according to the most advantaged. Consider, for example, the town that advertises a position for Emergency Services Dispatcher, for which part of the qualification is the ability to run 100m in n seconds. One kind of ableism might hold that someone missing a leg shouldn't be allowed to apply because anyone with a handicap is ipso facto unqualified. The other kind of ableism says that the person missing a leg must be able to pass the running test too.

One kind of -ism asserts a disqualifying difference; the other asserts that there is no difference.

If the people involved here had been wealthy frat boys doing the thieving for kicks, I don't think the viciousness here would be any worse (how could it be!). This is an example of the second kind of racism: the kind that says that crime is crime and there can be no extenuating circumstances.

To acknowledge that racism plays a continuing role in people's chances doesn't give those women a get-out-of-jail-free card. That's not what it's all about. But justice demands that circumstances alter cases. The person who steals because of having few options should be treated much more leniently than the person who steals to become more wealthy. Regrettably, we usually do it exactly the other way 'round.

Is that at all clear?

[RobinA]

91. Not Clear at All

You seem to be saying that these poor black women were stealing clothing (or whatever) because racism has prevented them from putting clothing (or whatever)on their backs any other way? Isn't it a bit of assumption on your part to automatically classify these women as poor and disadvantaged because they are black? We don't know thing one about these women, except that they carelessly ran over a man during the commission of a crime. And that they are black.

Personally, I know many black women who are no more disadvantaged than many white people. They would no more run over an old man while driving a getaway car than their white peers. They would also not shoplift. I also know disadvantaged white AND black people who are no more likely to shoplift than I am, a white, non-disadvantaged person. Disadvantaged people, white, black or purple, are not automatically criminals in need of lenient justice. They know the difference between right and wrong, same as anybody else.

[Mairead]

102. Use a smaller brush

I'm saying that we don't know their backgrounds, but the statistics are against them having had the same array of choices they would have had merely by having been born White. White people have White privilege, and it conveys a lifelong advantage.

Your point about most disadvantaged people not committing crimes is well-taken. But it's also one of the factors that allows the few to become wealthy and rule over us. As Warren Buffett among others has pointed out, great wealth can only be amassed without overt violence where the majority of people are compliant and behave like peasants. As Hitler is alleged to have said, 'What luck for rulers, that men do not think'. (My point in saying this, if I wasn't clear, is that the fact that most people are compliant and longsuffering is an unmixed blessing only for the ruling class.)

You might have noticed that privileged criminals -who are overwhelmingly White- tend to steal millions using the law rather than hundreds using a car. They ruin hundreds or thousands of lives as a central part of their crime rather than accidently killing one poor man as part of the getaway. Which doesn't make the accident okay, but it should, for anyone who wants to claim the label 'liberal', give pause for thought.

Just think what a different world we'd have if the Great Thefts of 2000, 2002, and 2004 had evoked widespread lawlessness (general strikes, unlicenced mass demos, and threats even against usurpers and their malfeasor accessories are crimes, remember).

[RobinA]

120. Thanks, No

Marxism 101 was WAY too long ago, and is WAY too loosely associated with the actual subject of this thread for me to find any further examination useful.

However, I do find your selective use of statistics interesting. You state that "statistics are against them having had the same array of choices...." Can I assume that when you walk down the street and encounter a black man you dive for cover because "statistics show" that he is more likely to have been convicted of a crime and a white man?

[ProfessorGAC]

101. Sorry, But You're Still Overreaching

You are really having to bend backwards to make your point. That's a pretty clear manifestation of overreach.

I don't deny that racism exists. I don't deny that there are extenuating circumstances. You don't know that these aren't sorority girls in their past. Neither do i. But, you seem to be willing to hand out extenuations where they may not be deserved.

As a result, you've made a tremendous leap in logic, that anyone who thinks this is reprehensible behavior is motivated by racism. That's the overreach. It's not overreaching to explore the probability of extenuating circumstances. But, it is overreaching to assume that any contrary view is evidence of racism. You just don't have the facts to support that.
The Professor

[Mairead]

109. Did you understand my point about two different levels of racism?

What we're seeing here is a lot of lynch-mob ideation in which people go far beyond any facts we have. Of course, it's possible that this ignorant certainty and ugly language represents bone-deep stupidity and general ugliness instead of racism. Would that construction sit better with you?

[ProfessorGAC]

111. I Understand Your Point. However, In The Context. . .

. . .of this thread, it is apropos of nothing.

Your overreach is finding racism as the motivation for the anti-perpetrator sentiment. Remember these women TURNED THEMSELVES IN. Then, they were CHARGED! These are not innocent people being railroaded. I would find that as abhhorent as anyone here.

I also don't detect the lynch mob. I see a few people trying to express support for someone who had a friend killed in this little criminal adventure for the mistake of being in the wrong place at that time. If there was any obvious mischaracterization of the facts and clear likelihood that these were the wrong women, i could see the rush to judgment being offensive. Those elements are not manifest here.

We have a group of young women who, fleeing from a crime, in a stolen car, killed an innocent bystander, and then turned themselves in resulting in criminal charges being filed. This is not a railroading of innocent victims. If it is, it has to be the most carefully detailed case of it in history.

You are trashing fellow DU'ers on this thread for an undertone of racism where it is not obvious in any way. Like i said earlier, long before many of us knew the race of either the victim or the people in the car, there was an equal sense of outrage that her friend should be a victim of such a senseless act.

The prior thread could not have been racially motivated, since nobody knew the race of anybody involved at that point. Now, because pictures, taken from a public news source were linked, it must be about racism. That's a leap in logic that would make Carl Lewis envious.
The Professor

[theboss]

79. I have no idea what you are talking about at this point?

To me, a criminal is a criminal. I didn't know these women were black until yesterday. If you read the original thread, we were all saying the same exact things without knowing their race. My opinion has changed not one bit.

Apparently, you are arguing that because they are black I should suddenly have sympathy for them.

Sorry, not going to happen. If everything they are accused of is true, I hope they spend many many years in prison to contemplate what they did.

[UdoKier]

88. There's nothing racist about throwing the book at killers.

Accidental or not, they committed a crime. The car was also stolen.

I don't think these girls should be in the dock at the Hague as Bush should be, but they should have a good number of years in prison to contemplate what they did.

[Mairead]

90. The crime they allegedly committed was theft, not murder

The fact that the law might construe the accidental death as murder doesn't alter the fact that mens rea was (I would presume) absent.

The fact that three of them gave themselves up creates a strong presumption that they themselves were saddened and horrified by what happened.

[AngryAmish]

100. Felony murder

Felony murder means that one commits a felony (stealing car, shoplifting if enough $ involved) and someone dies as a result, even accidentally, it is murder.

It is a concept recognized in most states. It is controversial, but it is recognized. For example, if your are holding up the local gas station and the cashier has a heart attack, you could be on the hook if fright brought about the heart attack.

[Mairead]

105. That's six-year-old reasoning

Larry Kohlberg, following the example of Jean Piaget's research in cognition, studied the development of ethical understanding in children. He found that most people get to the 'the law must be obeyed because it's the law' stage at around the age of five or six and they stop there, going through life with no better appreciation of nuance or higher-order ethics than a young child.

A few people, though, generally around adolescence, start to develop a more thoughtful, personal ethic that recognises that the law--which is constructed for six-y.o. thinkers--shouldn't be the last word on ethical issues.

People at the six-y.o. level generally get stymied or at least made acutely uncomfortable by problems that create conflict, such as: if by stealing something you could save a life, should you do it? They typically come down on the side of obeying the law.

All of which is a lead-in to my assertion that it doesn't really matter what the law says in this case. The law is not justice, it's only the law. Justice says that if the driver didn't have the requisite intent, then she's ethically culpable for an unintended tragedy, but not for the ethical equivalent of murder (murder, like insanity, is a legal term).

[AngryAmish]

108. Sir, you may have that opinion

However, I'm just pointing out the legal concept that allows those women to be charged with murder.

[Kingshakabobo]

116. YOU are the one using six-year-old logic.

Either that, or you are being intentionally obtuse because you want to back up your ridiculous argument.

You are approaching this matter as if the suspects merely ran this poor man over on the way home from the robbery only by "bad luck". It is not as though they robbed the store, drove off, stopped for ice-cream and them ran the guy over. The striking of the pedestrian was as a direct result of the crime/get-away. If they hadn't robbed the store they wouldn't have run over the victim. The high speed getaway, in a stolen car no less, was part of the crime. Read the frickin article. They entered the store, goatherd the goods, gave the signal to the driver and THEN sped off. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

[Mairead]

123. "If they hadn't robbed the store they wouldn't have run over the victim."

Does any part of what you've written seem in any way...ah, not well thought-out to you? Even bloody silly, perhaps?

If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'll give you a hint: out of all the cases where someone was struck and killed by a car, what percentage of those cars, do you think, were being driven by someone allegedly escaping an unrelated crime scene?

[KC_25]

126. I also think that if..

They hadn't been shoplifting, and then fleeing the scene then this scenario would have been avoided...


But hey...using the logic that you have applied, lets reverse the scenario shall we?

Three privilidged white males varying in age from 20-24 run over a poor black woman as they are fleeing the scene of the same crime..stolen car and all...

So do they get he benefit of it merely being a tragic accident as well? or are they criminals that committed an additional crime while carrying out another?

[lastliberalintexas]

121. And you claim to be an attorney?

Hopefully not in criminal defense practice. :eyes:

[H2O Man]

74. I usually agree with your posts.

I think you are an insightful and decent person. But in this case, I think you are wrong. Again, people were saying the same things about the three women involved before seeing the photos of them. It is not possible to accuse them of racism for that.

It is possible, however, to note that there is racism in any call to have criminals treated differently because of their race. No matter what opportunities a person has, or does not have, being a criminal should have consequences .... and those consequences should be the same, no matter what color their skin may be.

Further, "law and order" are indeed democratic issues. Being in favor of "law and order" is a good thing. The fact that a percentage of police officers are shitheads doesn't mean that democrats should oppose "law and order." Are there problems with the legal system, including an unacceptable level of racism? Yes. Yes. Yes. But our goal should be to improve the legal system, not reject it or identify it as our enemy.

These women made choices that resulted in the death of a person, and in severe damage to those who loved him. Now they are going to have to pay their dues. Viewing them as the victims is simply wrong, except as the victims of their own stupidity.

I will say that I am not entirely objective. I've got a lot of relatives in law enforcement, etc. Both my wife and I did forensic social work. I've had family and friends murdered. My nephew, as I've mentioned, was brutally assaulted by a racist skin-head gang, who hated him because he is black.

So, from my admittedly subjective position, I will say that I hope they have serious legal consequences. I hope this includes their spending a good deal of time incarcerated. And I hope that at some point, while feeling lonely behind bars, that they realize the terrible thing they did. I hope they make a determined effort to change their ways, and work very hard at becoming better human beings. And I hope they dedicate their lives to working to change the conditions that led them to make the awful choices they made.

The lie that their being black justifies their low level of being, however, would prevent them from making those changes.

[Mairead]

80. "It is not possible to accuse them of racism for that"

It is, though. You're looking at only half of the picture; let me offer an analogy: Bill Gates used to get a lot of credit for building Microsoft up from nothing. People would say that it was all due to his personal merit and he deserved every dollar. Then it came out that he had had a million dollars in his pocket and plenty more available if that ran out, and his mother had the connections with IBM executive management that got Gates the o/s contract when Killdal put his foot in it. But to the 'true believers', the ones who needed to see Gates as the poster boy for the Capitalist Mythos, those factors were irrelevant--they just dismissed them! To them, Gates built M$ up from nothing due to his personal merit and hard work--something anyone could do. Which means that, to them, people who don't do something like that are simply too lazy. Their poverty is their fault.

Now flip that over.

If you're Black in the US today, then you start out anything from one down to a hundred down. And you go on being kept at least one-down for the rest of your life. Everything is harder, for broadly the same reason that for Gates everything was easier.

So the non-racist reaction would have been to take into account the extra weight those young women have been lugging around, and try to understand the situation within that context.

Overt -isms say that someone who's Black or female or middle-aged or whatever is not as good as a young White male. Covert -isms assume that there are no -isms at work.

[H2O Man]

81. We all make decisions.

You have decided to ignore the fact, mentioned over and over, that DUers were saying the exact same thing about the women before knowing that they are black, that they are saying now.

Again, my nephew was assaulted by a group of savage white thugs, because he was a black high school athlete getting state-wide attention in the media. He suffered injuries that resulted in his not being able to use his college scholarships. He is deaf in one ear, and has damage to his neck and shoulders that will be a problem for him every single day of his life.

The leader of the gang got a $50 fine for having an open beer when he kicked and punched my unconscious nephew, who was laying on the ground with his hands in his pockets. I think I have as good of an idea about the problems with racism in the legal field as anyone on here, including you.

The same gang would savagely attack Asian-American students on the campus of SUNY-Binghamton. That time, the gang leader got a suspended sentence for leaving a victim unconscious, with a fractured skull.

Later that year, a group of young black men attacked a white man in nearby Oneonta, NY. They robbed him of his wallet, and cut his face.

Only an ignorant fool would relate to the violent savages based upon their race. The truth is, they are all rabid dogs. I think that trying to say that packs white rabid dogs and black rabid dogs are somehow "different" is racist. I don't care if some had an unlevel playing field in their puppyhood.

Your stance on this does more to hurt minorities than to help them. And your refusal to admit you are wrong in pointing your finger at others is troubling.

[Mairead]

82. "You have decided to ignore the fact"

Sorry that my analogy wasn't clear enough. I'll assume at this point that we don't speak the same language, and will spare you the mistake of 'speaking louder and more slowly'.

[H2O Man]

83. You are clear enough.

I am not having any problem understanding you. I understand your position. I know it is wrong. People make mistakes, and there is no shame in that. There is shame in refusing to admit an error.

[Mairead]

85. Oy shee-it. Okay, against my better judgement...

Two people shoplift the wherewithal for a meal. One does it because he's poor and hungry. The other, wealthy, does it for kicks.

If caught, should they be treated the same or differently, and if differently what should be the determining factor(s)?


Two homeless people shelter in an empty warehouse in winter. Somehow, one of them knocks a candle over, the warehouse catches fire, and 2 firemen are killed trying to put out the fire. Should the homeless people be prosecuted, and if so for what and under what theory?

[H2O Man]

92. You are trying to avoid the truth.

It makes me sad to see you behave this way.

[Mairead]

94. It makes me sad to see you duck my simple questions

If your political ethics are coherent and you're happy with them and feel they're defensible, then you should have no difficulty responding to the ethical problems I posed. I know I'd have no difficulty were the situation reversed: I'm clear in myself about my political ethics; they derive from many years of stumbling over problems that I hadn't considered til then. There are probably still questions that I'd have to think about awhile before I could formulate a defensible answer, but I'd confront them and own up if I did need some time to think them through.

[H2O Man]

97. Until you admit

that you erred in calling the comments of people on here racist, I do not think that you are raising anything that approaches an "ethical question." Again, people made the exact same comments before knowing the color of either the women who killed the the man, or the man. You do not appear to grasp racism or ethics in this case.

[Mairead]

104. That's sad. Honestly, that's pathetic.

[H2O Man]

113. Right.

Everyone else is wrong here. You alone are right.

[Madrone]

96. I'm sorry, but I do NOT agree that to be non-racist

I have to be enabling and make excuses for bad behavior.

[rinsd]

112. The one making the implicit assumptions is you....

...frankly someone stealing, fleeing the crime and killing an innocent bystander along the way, I don't give a shit what their background is.

The reason this case is getting attention here is because the man killed was a friend of a DUer.

"Blaming the victim is a classic rightwing ploy"

Hilarious.....the people causing death are victims. Assuming victimhood is also a rightwing ploy currently favored by fundies.

[JohnLocke]

53. Give me a fucking break.

[liberalnurse]

57. Well, I'm sorry to hear of your illness

and gastric upset.....I hope you feel better soon.

Here is a link to the charges by the Sheriff's Department.

http://www.whiotv.com/index.html

snip>

Four Columbus women are behind bars Thursday accused of murder in Springfield.

Authorities said the women shoplifted from the Upper Valley Mall on Tuesday and then killed a pedestrian during the getaway. Sheriff Gene Kelly said the women were a part of a theft ring, hitting various malls.

Officials said all four women were charged with murder....


Looks like this is not a right wing conspiracy after all. They have them on the surveillance video's from the robbery, exit and into the escape vehicle.....

[Kingshakabobo]

63. Crickets are a chirpin. Aren't they?

[Maclilly]

86. These wome are clearly

a professional team of shoplifters. They are very good at what they do. I don't know what all the infighting is for but these "women" are "alleged" murderers and criminals until a court convicts them. That does not mean they are not guilty.

I am sorry for your loss Liberalnurse, I hope you find peace in their trial. These people do this kind of thing for a living not because they are addicts or poor. I have seen these rings before and they are good at what they do. I hope they get put away for a very long time.

[RetroLounge]

62. I'm revolted by your tastless and bullshit post.

_!_

RL

[Individualist]

65. Your attempt to make this a racism issue is disgusting.

[geek tragedy]

66. Legally, they ARE guilty of felony murder.

Sorry, but these women are toast.

I hope they enjoy prison.

Actually, I don't.

[Indy Lurker]

93. You don't even need to be the killer.

Last year, in IL a cop who was sitting in a bar drinking, noticed his car was being stolen. He shot at the carjacker, missed, hit and killed a bystander. Once caught, the carjacker was charged with Felony Murder.

If anyone dies while you are commiting a felony, you can be charged with murder.

[lastliberalintexas]

122. Legally, they are currently guilty of NOTHING

They may be charged with murder, manslaughter, felony murder, negligent homicide or any other of a myriad of charges at the DA's disposal. But they are not legally guilty of anything until they are either found guilty at trial or enter into a plea agreement. Even an indictment is meaningless without further proceedings.

Presumption of innocence, people...

[H2O Man]

125. "Presumption of innocence"

only applies within a courtroom. There is no reason to assume within the context of this discussion that they are "innocent." They aren't.

[LisaL]

71. It's not an accident, if it occurred during the commission of a crime.

:eyes:

[texasdem99]

73. Did you even bother to read what happened

Before you leveled up a knee-jerk racism charge against the OP?

These women were shoplifting. They sped away. They hit this man and killed him. If you had bothered to read the story before you started your carping about racism, perhaps this fact wouldn't have eluded you.

Is this your definition of an "accident"?




"How many people believe that young Black women have anything resembling the opportunities that young white women have?"

What the hell does this have to do with anything in this tragedy? That because young Black women may not have the same opportunities as young white women, they should be allowed to shoplift and kill an innocent bystander in the process?

Because, like it or not, essentially that's what your saying.

My stomach is turning, too. From the blatant ignorance in your argument that the OP is somehow racist by relating this story.

Would you be outraged if the OP had posted mug shots of young white men that were the suspects?

Mmm hmmm. That's what I thought.

Some people love to look for racism anywhere they can possibly hope to find it.

[Judi Lynn]

110. Kansas City had a very sad story last night to ponder....

Good Samaritan Who Helped Foil Purse Snatching Dies
Jones Now Faces Felony Murder Charge

POSTED: 10:46 am CDT June 9, 2005
UPDATED: 9:24 pm CDT June 9, 2005

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- A 29-year-old man who helped foil a purse snatching last month at a suburban shopping mall parking lot died Wednesday.

Video



Video: Jon Was A 'Hero'

Johnson County prosecutors said Jonathan U died of severe internal injuries at Overland Park Regional Medical Center, where he had been hospitalized since the incident May 20.

Ruth Peck, 60, went to pick up some groceries that day at a Super Target store at 15345 W. 119th St. in Olathe. When she returned to her car in the parking lot, she said a man approached her.

"I hear this noise, and he says, 'Excuse me, ma'am.' And I look at him -- you know, he came up close -- and he grabs my purse," Peck told KMBC.

U saw what was happening and dove into the man's car window and tried to retrieve Peck's purse. But he was stuck while the purse-snatcher drove toward a nearby pet store, dragging him several feet and then pinning him against the wall, police said.
(snip/...)



Brad Joseph Jones

http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/news/4588865/detail.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Posted on Thu, Jun. 09, 2005

Good Samaritan dies of injuries sustained in purse-snatching
Associated Press

OVERLAND PARK, Kan. - A 29-year-old man who tried to stop a purse-snatching in a suburban shopping mall parking lot has died of injuries he sustained when he was dragged alongside the suspect's getaway car.

Jon U died late Wednesday of severe internal injuries at Overland Park Regional Medical Center, where he had been hospitalized since the incident May 20.

The Johnson County District Attorney's office also said Thursday charges against Brad Joseph Jones, 26, had been upgraded to felony murder. Jones had been charged with aggravated battery in the incident.

U was injured while trying to help Ruth Peck, 60, as she struggled with a man who wrenched her purse away from her in the parking lot. U ran after the thief and reached inside the getaway car in an effort to grab the purse.

The driver sped away, dragging U alongside. The car hit a building, and U was pinned between it and the car. He suffered severe internal injuries.
(snip)

Jennifer Baker, who runs a florist shop in the shopping area where the purse-snatching occurred, did not know U before the incident. But she has been collecting money and items for a gift basket from other merchants, and also spoke with U on the telephone while he was hospitalized.

"He was always asking about other people, his beautiful wife, and Ruth (Peck)," she said Thursday. "He was always thinking about someone else."
(snip/...)

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/11855881.htm

Very, very, VERY sad.

[Blue Diadem]

35. Glad they turned themselves in,

I was looking for info on this last night, thinking, actually hoping, that maybe with the surveillance video, they were already apprehended. It's good to know they're off the streets. I'm also curious about their unrelated charges.

Your friend sounds like such a good man. I'm so sorry for your and his family's loss.

[liberalnurse]

58. There are major concerns that this crime ring

is big.....They got out of Clark County, an unfamiliar area much too fast and easily. They had the dogs on it and they wrecked the car in a wooded area. More folks are involve.

Lets face it, these robbery rings affect all of us, be it at the shopping/checkout line and now we see their ruthlessness among the general public. I bet we all think twice when we leave the mall next time and go look for our car. I know I will but I have a personal connection.

[amazona]

98. yes they clearly appear to be professionals

It takes a professional outfit to re-sell designer clothes and distribute the earnings. One could argue that the assumption that black women could only commit petty or accidental crimes, rather than being involved in a well-run criminal organization, is also a racial bias. What a mess. I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

[TK421]

36. Is that one bitch smiling? I would love to wipe that off her face

:mad:

[wicket]

42. I hope they get life in prison

:grr: :grr: :grr:

[TK421]

44. I hope so, too...but my gut tells me they won't serve hard time for this

[wicket]

41. I am so sorry for your loss, liberalnurse

This sucks so much :cry:

[Pithlet]

46. Somehow I missed the original thread.

I'm so sorry for your loss. What a horrible way to lose a friend. :hug:

[expatriate]

49. liberalnurse, my condolences.

This is a terrible thing, and losing a close friend in such a way is terrible.

I have read the article and would like to make a couple of comments after reading some of the posts here.

First thing, why are people calling these women "girls"? They are all 20 years old or older. The eldest is 24. These are grown women, not "girls".

Three of the four women involved already had outstanding warrants for other charges. They were escaping in a stolen rental car. They were caught on camera taking thousands of dollars worth of clothing and draping them over their arms - then the driver of the car drove up to the door of the store and they fled with the merchandise. This was a planned robbery, not a minor shoplifting incident where some confused and silly "girls" driving Daddy's car decided to shoplift a tube of lipstick.

They probably didn't intend to run the victim down, but the murder charges probably stem from the fact that they did run him down in the midst of committing a crime involving the attempted theft of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise.

So it really isn't about some giddy, selfish girls doing a little light shoplifting and having a tragic accident. These women are going to be facing some serious charges, not only a murder charge, but auto theft and theft as well - to say nothing of whatever additional charges the warrants on them were for.

[dsc]

54. I am so sorry for your loss

What a senselessly bad luck way to go. I hope this ends up serving as a cautionary tale for the next group of people who decide that robbing the local store is a victimless crime.

[gulfcoastliberal]

56. I am so sorry for your loss. I myself was almost shot by a former friend

this past weekend after he took a massive dose of Xanax and came over and got into my guns (yes, I'm now going to buy a safe). Fortunately for me the bullets hit my glass TV stand and center channel speaker. As I escorted him out of the building, he attacked me in the elevator with his belt buckle. Thankfully the doorman called 911 as soon as we reached ground floor... since I was screaming for him to call the police. A construction worker in the lobby held him back till the cops got there. He's now facing a 2nd-degree felony count of aggravated battery and my $1500 TV is badly damaged. I have many painful face and head contusions & bruises but I'll be OK; I refused the ambulance. The things people do these days... it's beyond my understanding. So sorry you lost a friend. Those SOBs deserve life in prison. May they rot in jail for eternity. What a country.

[liberalnurse]

59. Whooo you had a rough weekend.

I'm glad you were not seriously injured physically....very, very lucky indeed. I imagine that the behavior of your former friend compounds the pain.

That Xanax is nasty stuff. The withdraw alone can last months too. He may now get the chance to clean-up or at the very least dry out being in jail and all. What a mess. May I suggest you don't cave in on the charges either. Consequences can be a fruitful experience.

Thank you for your support. I think we all can reflect tonight on life's little twists of fate.

[gulfcoastliberal]

61. Very rough, but nothing compared to your loss. Property is replaceable

Lives aren't. :hug:

[TBreeze]

68. I saw this on the news

I'm so sorry about your friend liberalnurse. :hug: My heart goes out to his friends and family.

[Catherine Vincent]

69. Sorry for your loss, liberalnurse.

I don't feel sorry for these idiots. If you want to steal, fine, but you kill someone in the process, then off to prison you go!

How sad!

[lonestarnot]

77. ah, I'm sorry for John and I'm sorry for your loss and I am sorry for

desperate people who have to turn to theiving to get what they need.

[goclark]

87. So sorry about your friend, prayers nt

[Toots]

89. Exactly what is your purpose in posting these pictures?

I find this thread disgusting.

[Bridget Burke]

95. To point out the "type" of persons who are involved.

Of course, she's the only one ever affected by a violent crime.

[Goldmund]

103. Would you say the same thing if the pictured persons happened to be white?

Ergo, it seems to me your position here is racist, not hers.

[Kingshakabobo]

114. Notice how most of the racist claims in this thread are drive-bys?

I guess THEY don't even believe their own b-llsh-t.

[Bridget Burke]

115. Would the pictures have been posted if they suspects were white?

And why is alleged in quotation marks?

[Goldmund]

117. I can't speak for liberalnurse,

but I would bet you my house that they would have. It's a good point: your objection only makes any sense under the assumption that the pictures would not have been posted if the suspects were white. But you have to admit that is a baseless speculation, right? That is a guess by you -- and not a very educated guess, since you are talking about a DU poster who is much less likely to harbor racism than a random member of the general population.

If you scrub that assumption and instead assume that the pictures would have been posted if the suspects were white, does your charge not fall apart?

As far as "alleged" in quotation marks -- I don't know, it may have to do with the fact that this was her friend and that cold legal objectivity is the last thing on her mind right now. I don't see how the quotation marks could imply racism.

[amazona]

99. well i would have preferred not to see the photos

I don't think any purpose is served by making it a racial thing. The point, that the women were professional thieves who killed a pedestrian while fleeing the scene, could have been made without bringing their mug shots into it. But when people are in pain, they do what they need to do to hold onto their sanity. I think we should cut a little slack here.

Also, maybe some people did need a picture to get the picture? Some people upstream, though the article clearly states it was a coordinated and professional robbery, admit that they pictured a gaggle of ditzy Valley girls picking up some designer threads on impulse. That is not what happened. It was a professional hit on the store. But some people admit that they didn't grok that at first.

[MissB]

106. I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend.

[lastliberalintexas]

124. I'm very sorry for your loss, liberalnurse

I hope that you and his family will be able to fondly remember the life he lived and the friend he was.

[Moderator]

127. Locking

This has become a fruitless flame war