On Minister Malcolm, Dr. Dean, & White Folks

[H2O Man]

In a 1965 meeting of the OAAU in Harlem, after Malcolm X gave a speech on black nationalism that touched on "brotherhood" with people of all colors, a Black Nationalist stood up, rocked back on his heels, and said slowly, "We heard you changed, Malcolm. Why don't you tell us where you're at with them white folks?"

The audience became silent. It was at a time when Malcolm was going through some changes: he had endured an attempt to silence him by the vultures in the Nation of Islam, who wanted him out before Elijah died. And he had taken two extended trips to Africa and the Middle East, where he moved beyond the ignorance that had handcuffed him to a racist, hateful ideology. And that made many, like the man confronting him, very uncomfortable.

Malcolm didn't miss a beat. "I haven't changed," he said. "I just see things on a broader scale. We nationalists used to think we were militant. We were just dogmatic. It didn't bring us anything.

"Now I know it's smarter to say you're going to shoot a man for what he is doing than because he is white. If you attack him because he is white, you give him no out. He can't stop being white. We've got to give the man a chance. He probably won't take it, the snake. But we've got to give him a chance.

"We've got to be more flexible. ... I'm not going to be in anybody's straitjacket. I don't care what a person looks like or where they come from. My mind is wide open to anybody who will help get the ape off our backs." (Village Voice; 2-25-65)

When Dr. Dean points out that the republican party is almost exclusively white christians, it is a good thing. But it is important that we do not stop there. The truth is that the democratic party's largest group is also white and christian. We need to attack the republican party because of what their "exclusive" ideology actually translates to in their actions.

The Southern Poverty Law Center's spring 2005 Intelligence Report includes extensive information that exposes the republican parties' growing linkages with racist hate groups. One that we should focus on is the Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC). This group is actually the Ku Klux Klan wearing business suits in the daytime; their members put on their white sheets at night. I am not joking.

In 1998, (now former-)US Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott "got into political hot water .... over his cozy relationship" with the CCC, the SPLC reports. (Spring '05 Intelligence Report; page 12) Both the RNC and the Conservative Political Action Committee called the CCC "racist," and urged republicans to avoid any association with it.

What do the CCC leaders say publicly about non-white peoples? One leader, Edgar Steele, calls blacks "a retrograde species of humanity." James Hart, a Tennessee republican running for congress, campaigned on a platform calling for the elimination of welfare and immigration, before the USA looks "like one big Detroit." He advocates a forced sterilization program that is a "war on poverty genes" to reduce the threats posed by the "lesser races" and "bums from the slum."

In Georgia, the republican candidate for district attorney in a largely black district was Craig Fraser, former assistant to J.B. Stoner. Fraser has described Hitler as a "genius" who fought the good fight to "get rid of the Jewish poison."

MS Governor Haley Barbour is a long-time CCC supporter. He has refused to distance himself from the CCC on principle: "Once you start down the slippery slope of saying, 'That person can't be for me,' then where do you stop? Old segregationists? Former Ku Klux Klan?" Good heavens, we don't want Haley sliding down a slippery slope that separates him from his KKK friends and relatives!

These are the things that democrats need to be hitting the republicans with. We need to make the Roy Moore and Tom Parker-types the poster boys of republican prejudice. The fact that a person is white and christian is not the issue -- the fact that they are racist snakes is the issue.

[tnlefty]

1. Could you please correct TN Gov. Haley Barbour? He's MS's

governor.

[H2O Man]

2. Yikes!

Thanks. I should have finished my coffee before attempting to write anything. I appreciate you're pointing out my error.

[tnlefty]

3. You're welcome. This was nicely written and I didn't think you'd

want that messing it up a little.

I have a couple of questions, please.

I've tried to find out info. about CCC after seeing them on SPLC's site a few years back, and that group is growing in my area. Do you have info. on them that is more descriptive than what I found at SPLC?

Also, have you seen John Shelby Spong's book, The Sins of Scripture, or the lecture he gave just as he was finishing the book? He mentions in the lecture that the roots of the conservative christian, fundy or however you prefer to phrase it, movement actually has its roots in the racist elements of the south.

[H2O Man]

5. On the CCC ....

the only information I have on them comes from the SPLC. They have, of course, kept track of the CCC for years. I was using the Spring '05 I.R., in part because I figured it would be on their web site. The SPLC has had information on a number of books etc; I'll go through some of my older information and see if I can find more.

I haven't seen the book you mention. But I agree that today's "conservative christian" movement is the offspring of yesterday's KKK and John Birch-type of groups.

[DrRang]

7. CCC's a bastard offshoot of WCC?

Seems like I remember that the CCC was formed from the remains of the old White Citizens Council that served as a sort of Gestapo in Mississippi during the Civil Rights struggled. Kept dossiers on those suspected of not being rabid racists. Years later the WCC papers were made public and revealed the extent of the spying.

[wryter2000]

10. Sorry to be off topic

Spong wrote that book? I've heard of it and thought I'd like to have it. Now, I know I have to have it.

Dang, you just cost me some $$$. :woohoo:

[tnlefty]

12. Am I a keyboard capitalist now? Yes, he wrote it and we saw the

lecture twice and had to wait a week or so before we could buy the book. The lecture is serious, but he is also very witty in the presentation. I could kick myself for not having taped it.

Found it at Barnes and Noble, btw. :hi:

[H2O Man]

15. I will also be buying it.

One of the things I like the most about DU is having great books recommended.

[wryter2000]

11. Absolutely!

movement actually has its roots in the racist elements of the south.

Absolutely! George Wallace invented modern "conservatism." There's an illuminating book on the topic -- THE POLITICS OF RAGE. I can't remember the author.

[Karenina]

4. Nominated!

:kick:

[H2O Man]

6. Thank you !! n/t

[H2O Man]

8. "We're not one nation under God --

we're one nation under God's wrath." -- Judge Roy Moore, Republican Poster Child

[Catherine Vincent]

9. Very good post!

Thanks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. Wonderfully written, H20man

Shoot this off to Dean. I am sure he can use it to better make his point

[H2O Man]

16. Thanks!

I think that I will forward this to Dr. Dean.

[bear425]

14. You bring up an excellent point. Let's hope Dean's comments

evolve to be understood by the average voter in this way. It's all about the racism.

Thank you for writing this and please consider forwarding it to Dean.

[H2O Man]

17. I think Dr. Dean was simply

taking the first step towards having the frank discussion about the racial issues that still too fequently divide Americans. A number of the threads on DU GD make clear the need for such a discussion. I think it was a good thing for him to put some cards on the table. I respect that honesty, and I think that we can only begin to make progress by being honest, even when it offends some folks.

[bear425]

18. I wholeheartedly agree. Dr. Dean's words are the honest truth.

If the truth offends some (read: republicans and dinos), well then, get used to it. Dr. Dean's approach is going to shake up this party that's in desperate need of it. Let's all give him a collective "yeeeaarrgh"!

[Karenina]

20. A L-O-N-G overdue discussion.

We can save the "Republican concept of work" teaser for another day! ;-)

[H2O Man]

21. I agree.

There's some unfinished business in America that we ought to get straight.

[mondo joe]

19. Dean is playing politics - not evangelizing. And he's getting just what

he wants and needs: Press attention and a fired up base.

[H2O Man]

23. I'm not sure .....

there are times that I think Dr. Dean ain't "playing." That's why I like him. The more I see of him, the more I think he is telling the truth. And that is what separates true leaders like Malcolm from the crowd of pseudo-leaders who "play politics."

[Just Me]

35. I agree. Dr. Dean is genuine rather than a political player.

He is the kind of individual who may help to re-tool the game of politics, which has devolved into a destructive machine.

[H2O Man]

40. When a person in our society

puts their being on the line, and risks being attacked by the jackals in the news media, I have to respect that. Dean could capitalize on his fame, and accept a more comfortable role, by simply giving lip-service to the worn-out slogans that far too many of the democratic "leaders" do. Rather, he is showing signs of maturing .... and becoming a real leader, no matter what the personal cost.

[stickdog]

22. GOP = Galvinizing Old Prejudices (nt)

[H2O Man]

24. True. Very true.

Malcolm used to say that the louder his enemy squawked in response to something he said, the more he knew that what he said had hit home. When I see Fox News and the like having loud squawking segments, warning their good democratic friends how "dangerous" this mad-man Dean is, the better I feel about him. Their attempts at "galvinizing" in that old-fashioned way brings back memories.

[stickdog]

51. It was late, should have spell checked.

:-)

[H2O Man]

55. Me, too. n/t

[Solly Mack]

25. Excellent read!

[H2O Man]

27. The discussions about Dean

and a couple of other ones in the past 72 hours, indicate that DU might benefit from an open discussion on some of the issues that still divides this country. We have to re-examine some of our own often deeply-held beliefs, in order to be sure that we are not, as Malcolm pointed out, simply being dogmatic.

This country is fastly approaching a time when the balance of power, at least in terms of numbers of people, is going to be very different than it was in the first two centuries of the American experience. The United States will no longer be a white shirt with a few "colored" buttons. The times, they are a changing.

I am convinced that a large part of the social agenda of the Bush-types is to try to re-establish a feudal system, to entrench the "white christian" ideology that Dean spoke of. Rather than see the benefits of a greater society with all sizes, shapes, and colors, they want to make their system of power even more rigid ..... where a black person can enjoy a position if they will be a Colin Powell but not a Jesse Jackson; where a Ben NightHorse Campbell is viewed as a good Indian, but Oren Lyons is unAmerican; where Asian-Americans still have a distinct identity that is "different" that an Irish-American or an English-American.

Perhaps the saddest measure of this is found today in teen-agers. While it is true that there are serious issues with gangs and crime among non-white youth, particularly in urban areas, the statistics reported by the Southern Poverty Law Center show that hate crimes are being commited at a sky-rocketing rate by young white people. I shudder when I read the reports of anti-black, anti-Asian, anti-gay, anti-Muslim and other hate crimes being commited by white youth.

There are times when I look back at all the progress that Americans fought and suffered and died for in the 195os and '60s, and I see a young generation today that in large part is unaware of what it took to make things better. All those gains are at risk of being lost through ignorance and apathy. Ignorance, as Malcolm told us, is the language of the devil, and apathy his tongue.

We have a lot of work cut out for us.

[Solly Mack]

30. Maybe you can combine the OP with this one and submit as an article?

Because your point is dead-on about what is happening in America...and as been happening for years.

[H2O Man]

32. Yes, it has been happening for many years.

As I've read a number of your posts, I've gotten the impression that you are of the approximate generation that I am -- which I do not mean as an insult -- because I believe that there are some insights which come almost exclusively from experience. And I think that one of the insights that having been through that time period, which today is often romanticized, is that we do not have the luxury of being able to wallow in ignorance and prejudice. The stakes are far too high.

(There is an old saying that comes to mind: smart people learn from other's mistakes; most people have to learn from their own; and fools just never learn! Perhaps you fit more into that first group, and are much younger than I.)

Regarding an article: my younger son wrote a term paper on hate crimes for a high school class that I am hoping he has saved, and which I would like to post on DU. He is a bit smarter than his old man, and maybe it would mean more to young folks today, hearing from someone their own generation, than from a member of the older generation.

[Solly Mack]

36. I'm 41 and one of the "most" crowd. :o)

Just not all mistakes.Some I did learn from others not to make. (thankfully)

There's a wall, a fairly high wall, between wealth and rich in America. That high wall gets taller and taller for the middle class, the wall becomes a mountain by the time it reaches the working poor, and it exist as a completely other world from the poor.

Factor into that (classism) the other prejudices used to divide -race,gender,sexuality,politics,ethnicity..etc.

It's all used to prop up that feudal world that's being built.

I think Dean said more than even he realized.


I look forward to reading your son's paper.

[H2O Man]

38. The money issue

is at the root of so many of the problems we are facing. And it can be a hard one to resist. Reminds me of another famous Malcolm quote: "It's easy to become a satellite today without even being aware of it. This country can seduce God. Yes, it has that seductive power -- the power of dollarism. You can cuss out colonialism, imperialism and all other kinds of isms, but it's hard for you to cuss that dollarism. When they drop those dollars on you, your soul goes." (1-7-65; Militant Labor Forum)

[DemonFighterLives]

26. Thanks H20 man

There are so many nuances to what Dean said and it takes someone to dig deeper to provide a broader understanding. I don't know much about the ccc, but now that you mention it, I have no doubt that they are racists. That is one profound difference between Dem. Christians and Rep. Christians. At least Dem. Christians try to be politically correct, actually that is a sick word for it, it is more like religiously correct.

The day that all men can rise up to act like a MLK or JFK or whoever is still not assured. It seems that the whole country has slipped back about 30+ years under this corrupt administration. Any way that we can tie them to the racists of old will be a good thing for the Dems.

We need to set our own agenda, like the good Doctor said. I believe him too, he's not just a stuffed shirt, but a real man.

[H2O Man]

29. Exactly!

You said, in a shorter and more concise manner, what I tried to say in post #27 .... which I was writing when you hit the nail on the head here.

The more real Dean becomes, the more we will have enemies like Fox News say he is hurting the democratic party. And some of our friends in the democratic party may be confused or even troubled by his message. It's not often that we have a political figure who tells the truth.

[DemonFighterLives]

34. Shorter and concise

I can no way compare to your writing. I checked #27 and you are right on. My excitement causes me to leave out words and jump around like a fart in a lantern. Glad that you can interpret it.


*****
Democratic National Committee meeting starting now live on C-spn. Howard Dean presiding.
******

[H2O Man]

39. Nothing compares

to a group of us working with a common goal in mind. One of the things I like the best about working at the grass roots is the ability that people have to peel away the layers of nonsense, and to pin-point that which is most important to people in their eveyday lives. And that is something we witness on DU almost every day.

[KittyWampus]

28. The GOP Is Filled W/ EXTREMIST White Christians. He Failed To Make

that crucial, all-important distinction.

Without that qualifier, Dean's comment was absurd, pointless and counter productive.

Stop trying to 'interpret' Dean's dumbass comment and telling us all what he 'really meant'.

He was in the ballpark but struck out.

Hopefully, next time he decides to light into the GOP and the faux Christians they pander to, he'll grasp that distinction.

[H2O Man]

31. I agree ....

That distinction must be made. Yet I see his bringing the issue to the table as giving us the opportunity to move the national discussion even further in that direction. I suspect that if Dean had gone into the detail that you correctly demand, the media would still have played but a tiny sound-bite.

This discussion gives every DUer an opportunity to write a LTTE on this subject. It is a good example of a situation that requires the grass roots to work in a coordinated manner with someone in a national leadership position. We should strike while the iron is hot

[KittyWampus]

45. IMO, Dean Is Probably A "Big Picture" Kind Of Guy Who Consults & Reads

widely... he gets the lay of the land but is hazy on some details.

So he probably gets it about the faux, loudmouthed false-prophet Christians... but he hasn't spent enough time focusing on it to spontaneously come up with the correct, accurate terminology.

So he could use an assistant.

Not to handle or tone him down... but someone to pick out concepts/phrases and practise with Dean a couple of hours a week.

An old time supporter who gets Dean's style and goals and who can help Dean brush up on word/phrases.

[DemonFighterLives]

33. That would be your opinion

I don't see how you can say Dean struck out. It may not be a homer, but he has sure stirred the base and made the republicans go into total hate mode. Also it has focussed a light on the pink tutus.

I think the "dumbass comment" may have been a part of a plan and not just an off the cuff thing. I could be wrong, but it is playing well to the grassroots and funding of the dem. machine is going up.

[H2O Man]

37. We all have to take an active role.

"Leaders" aren't going to transform this society. No matter if a person agrees with 1/16th, 1/8th, 1/4th, 1/2, or all of what Dean said, we need to move the discussion forward. "Playing well to the grassroots" is such a huge advance .... and by our sending donations, no matter if it is $5 or $500, we are able to show that the grass roots are promoting a discussion of this most important topic.

[DemonFighterLives]

42. So right

I donated to the DNC for the first time and I told them why. Dean.
Just getting back to you because I was watching the DNC on cspn.
Cornell Belcher, an interesting democratic strategist who happens to be black is still on.
Dem. Party is the bigger tent and diversity is a good thing.

You know H20, I never thought much good of Malcolm until I started looking a little closer. I guess it was kind of a media perception cultivated in to ah dislike him. I don't know how to say it, but I never knew enough about him to have had an opinion before and I still don't know that much.

[H2O Man]

47. Some of the largest of lies

in American history are those still told about Malcolm X. He was a beautiful, often gentle human being who -- in what our history books refuse to admit -- was absolutely AMERICAN !!! Now, there were times he spoke out very harshly, and he understood how to turn a phrase to leave a lasting impression. Yet, the funny thing, he was never associated with any public violence. (King, our prophet of peace, was always in the middle of violence!)

I've had sincere people tell me that Malcolm was oppressive towards women. But when we look at the last years of his life, he was offending the Nation of Islam by putting women into unofficial positions of power. People say he was a racist, and hated white folks; but if you look at Malcolm on the college campuses, you see a man who had moved beyond Elijah's restricted interpretations.

The evolution of human beings is not mechanical. It is not evoltion in the physical sense. It is the evolution of a man or woman's consciousness. And there is no better example of human evolution in the past 1000 years than Malcolm. Carl Sagan said that "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" was the most important book in American literature.

[KittyWampus]

44. Dean Didn't Even TOUCH The Issue Of Extremism/Faux Christians

and in fact confused the issue... so how could he possibly have been successful except amongst DU'ers who can't even be honest about the whole thing?

Being unwilling to critique a leader isn't helpful to the cause OR the leader, in fact it encourages mediocrity and failure.

[mondo joe]

49. It's not his place to say who is a FAUX christian. Don't expect it of him

And the minute he uses his position to say who is or isn't appropriate or genuine in their religion is the day he loses my support.

[stickdog]

53. Wrong. Dean told a truth that's undeniable. And you'd have him replace it

with an insulting value judgement?

Dean's point was that diversity is good and Repukes are anything but diverse.

Both statements needed to be made. It's also true that evangelicals has coopted the Republican party and are trying to change the US into a fundamentalist theocracy. But that point is a little harder to make because most religious people are very protective of their religion and wouldn't mind a little cozier relationship between church and state.

[candy331]

63. Cryingshame, who would have the nerve to say even what Dean said

Kerry, Clintons, just whom? Obama is a Black and I dare say even he would not say The GOP Is Filled W/ EXTREMIST White Christians. But you'd better believe the GOP knows exactly what Dean means and all those in their camp know all too well and don't need it spelled out letter by letter. But of course sometimes you throw out a line just to test the waters and I'd say the waters have been tested that is why so much rancor.

[H2O Man]

65. What Dean said

has certainly gotten a reaction from the republicans.

[Pobeka]

41. 3 thumbs up!

(I have a very flexible toe ;-) )

I hope Dr. Dean and Co. read this. My take on Dean's comment was not that being a white christian is a bad thing, it's just that it doesn't represent the true diversity in the USA.

[immoderate]

43. Three reasons to be a Republican:

1. Rich plutocrat
2. Religious conservative
3. Racist.

(Note: There could be other reasons, but I'm not looking for that fight today.)

As racism meets with more social disapproval, those people are more driven to veil their racism with a cover of religious conservatism. That's what Dean means (or should) by "white Christians." These are not Christians that happen to be white, they are making a profession of being white and are co-opting the religion to pursue their racist aims.

At the same time the true religious conservative should see that the Republican party is being overtaken by those who are the antitheseis of Christianity, and will perhaps discover that it is not good to be among the "white Christians" but better to follow the "real Christians."

--IMM

[boohootwo]

50. I have to disagree.

I've read more racism on DU than anywhere ever in my life. Do you really think putting down Whites is not racist?

[Sparkly]

52. "putting down Whites?"

Where? :shrug:

[H2O Man]

56. There's none on this thread.

I'm not sure where that came from.

[immoderate]

62. Show me some examples of racism on DU please.

Link to some threads. Thanks.

More racism here "than anywhere ever in your life." (!!????):rofl:



--IMM

[Pithy Cherub]

46. Malcolm is rarely discussed openly with the grace

you have beautifully displayed here. Malcolm evolved his philosophy to a higher plane by becoming an independent thinker towards the end of his life. Most go for the most incendiary and hyperbolic quotes of Malcolm from what I'll call his Dark Age.

Dean, however colorfully or inartfully it is represented, has opened the door to dialogue, discussion and debate and a message about race and faith. Dean pushed the Democratic Party forward by being authentic and genuine in his desire to see Democrats be portrayed fairly and accurately. It is interesting that the Governor from a small state with a tiny minority population who was harshly criticized for not having minorities in key roles is making his rhetoric match his words. Dean is the right emissary for the message because he used his talents to make the truth heard.

Some, as the man in your story indicates, will be focused on semantics or who should be the messenger but that largely misses the point. Dean made it OK to talk about it aloud and proud and in mixed company. For that Dean has my eternal thanks.

[H2O Man]

48. I appreciate that.

Thank you.

[roguevalley]

54. I wish Malcolm X and MLK were alive. We need their voices and

their guts.

[candy331]

64. They are alive in their replacements, we have to just recognize

who they are because they are right in our midst.

[Behind the Aegis]

57. BRAVO!!!

Very well stated! I wish I wrote this eloquently! You did a GREAT job!!! :yourock:

[H2O Man]

60. Thank you.

I think it was a group effort, in a sense, as others on DU sparked my interest in making a specific point. And quoting Malcolm always helps!

[noiretextatique]

58. the GOP's connection to racist groups

i have a poster somewhere that i got at a UAW civil rights conference some years ago that connects the dots between so-called mainstream rw political groups and their less savory friends in white supremacist and christian identity movements. i believe it was produced by the SPLC...i will try to track it down.

[H2O Man]

59. Great!

SPLC is a powerful resource.

[mzmolly]

61. Great post, recommended!

:toast:

[H2O Man]

66. Ahskwa: the bridge

In the early spring of 2002, in an interview with Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman (who was selected by the Haudenosaunee Grand Council of Chiefs to serve as Gauyesa Toyentha), I asked about the complex issues involved in group relations within North America. Often, we see people define "race relations" in black and white terms. This is a sure road to misunderstanding. We are black, brown, red, yellow, and white. While we share this land, we are often very different in our thoughts and perceptions, and in defining the foundations of our reality.

"It's hard to have people from one culture really understand another," Chief Waterman told me. "I'm not sure that everything can be explained. Some things you either understand, or you just don't. Maybe the goal should be to teach respect for other people, even if you don't fully understand them."

That reminds me of Malcolm being interviewed on the Pierre Berton Show, in Toronto, on 1-19-65. Berton was tough, but fair. He asked Malcolm about statements he had made when he was still in the Nation of Islam, that were strongly opposed to both integration and intermarriage. The older DUers will remember that Malcolm was always at his best when he was asked a tough question, point blank.

"I believe in recognizing every human being as a human being -- neither white, black, brown, or red; there's no question of integration or intermarriage. It's just one human being marrying another human being, or one human being living around and with another human being. .... I believe in a society in which people can live like human beings on the basis of equality."

Earlier, in an interview with the poet and music critic A. B. Spellman, Malcolm had been asked a frank question about his willingness to work with people of other religious backgrounds. He responded that he wanted to coordinate efforts with "all groups .... Christians, Muslims, agnostics, atheists, anything. Everyon who is interested in solving the problem is given an invitation to become actively involved with either suggestions or ideas or something." (May, 1964)

As the democratic party has the opportunity to address issues about group relations, which is what Dr. Dean brought to the table, I think we should continue to discuss those same issues on DU. It is apparent to me that there is a good deal of misunderstanding among people of different backgrounds, even here on DU. I hope that we can keep the discussion going, to try to bring about greater understanding whenever and where ever possible .... so that we can help fulfill Malcolm's goal of diverse, progressive movement in America.

At the same time, we should recognize that our diversity may not allow for a full understanding of every group, and certainly will not result in a full agreement on every issue. Yet as Chief Waterman taught, it need not prevent mutual respect among all of us. If we start with that respect, we will be on solid ground .... and that solid ground will allow us to reach higher ground.

Jotowe'Go:nah