Dear DINO's,

[Horse with no Name]

Just putting you on notice. You are "either with us or against us".
We are a proud Democratic party. If your values are in line with guys across the aisle, it is our suggestion that you join them.
But the people who elected you into your job--did not want Republicans for a very good reason, yet that is what you are giving them.
We are a party of educated constituents and we know that "If it walks like a duck, acts like a duck, talks like a duck and VOTES like a duck...then indeed sir, it is a duck."
We suggest you change your course to the will of the people or else we will campaign just as hard to get you out of office as we did to get you in.
This is your fair warning.

[Pacifist Patriot]

1. I've got a question about DINO's.

Given that the Democrats are a party of inclusion and there are oodles and oodles of issues on which to have differences of opinions...who decides which are the dealbreakers that earn you the label?

Seems every time I turn around a loyal Democrat hero is being torn down off his/her pedestal because he/she dared hold a different opinion on some issue or the other.

How are we to keep up? I think I need a score card and a rating system.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. I think the Kucinich zealots have one.

Something like the Patrick Henry think tank. Of course, it has so little basis in political reality that I wouldn't take it very seriously.

[Horse with no Name]

6. When they vote against party values

Then they are a DINO. One vote against our party is one vote too many.
They are not put in Congress to vote what gets them front row seats at a play or a ballgame, or even to vote their opinion. They are put there to vote the will of their constituents. Plain and simple. If they aren't, then they need to be replaced.

[Pacifist Patriot]

13. That's a debate that has raged for centuries.

Do we elect representatives to vote a platform or because we believe they have the necessary qualifications to make rational decisions on our behalf?

*shrug*

[theboss]

25. What are our party's values?

I mean, do Robert Byrd and Dennis Kucinich really share the same values?

[DrGonzoLives]

34. So

if the constituents' will does not align with the official platform of the Democratic party, what then?

[liberal N proud]

12. Good Point

The Democratic Party has room for all points of view. Well most of them anyway.

The problem here is the infighting and more over how we all allow the infighting to divide.
The fighting in the Democratic party has been going on for years, it is part of the process.
We just need to educate people that the fuss made over it by the media and the repukes is nothing more that a tool they are using to divide the Democratic party. Their attempt to kill the party.
Don't fall for it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

16. I think the "fighting" should be reframed and spun as a positive.

Hell ya we're fighting. Folks, that is how a political party is supposed to do it. You don't make good policy by following like blind sheep. You do it through spirited debate ad opposing points of view. Good heavens, we wouldn't be doing our duty as representatives of the people if we didn't disagree once in awhile. Geez, what do you think we are? Republicans?

[Toots]

38. It is called the Democratic Platform (plank)

It is spelled out in detail what the goals and aspirations of the Democratic party are and supporting a Republican agenda is not in the platform. Zell Miller is a prime example.

[Pacifist Patriot]

40. Zell Miller is obvious.

I get the impression that he is not whom we are talking about though.

[Eloriel]

54. Loyal Democrat? or

self-serving narcissistic exhibitionist planning to run for Prez in '08???

[theboss]

2. What if I think Dean is a DINO?

Ah...ooh...clever!

I'm smart!

[RetroLounge]

48. No, just annoying...

RL

[Eloriel]

55. I vote ill-informed

TRAGICALLY ill-informed. Dean is as far from a DINO as I am, if not more so.

Edited to add: As a matter of fact, Dean is far truer to the old-style REAL Democrat model than any other Dem I can think of. When I think of my own youth -- 50s, 60s, Dean fits in quite well. If he talked Labor more (but I think that's a function of the era), he'd be a dead ringer for a popular politician from that era. Some people I know are reminded of RFK by Dean, and the one I'm thinking of most strongly who fels this way is very savvy politically and has been involved in politics since age 7.

[RetroLounge]

57. Exactly!

Thank you for that.

:hi:

RL

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

3. Dear "Horse..."

DINOs from "red" states are necessary to put people like Boxer and Kennedy back into power. Just putting you on notice: cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't a wise strategy.

As for other DINOs (ie. Lieberman and Biden), do what you will with them.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Horse with no Name]

9. Yeah okay.

:eyes:

[patcox2]

15. Listen to yourself, you might as well be quoting Bush

"If your not with us, your against us." One of Bush's favorite sayings.

Half the problem with our society is this manichean trend toward seeing everything in absolute black and white your with us or against us, you are either wholly good or wholly evil.

Its bullshit, its a dangerous, harmful attitude, its what I hate most about the republicans, more than their so-called values, its their dualistic view of the world, their intolerance of any beliefs that don't 100% toe the party line.

Its bullshit in republicans, and its bullshit in democrats too.

But its a comfortable place for people with the "authortitarian personality."

[Horse with no Name]

20. That was what it was meant to sound like

Do you think I deliberately pulled that phrase out of mid-air?
But obviously that is what our Congress critters are responding to--the Bush rhetoric...cause they sure as hell aren't listening to us.

[TankLV]

35. From the mouth of a true DINO.

Why am I not surprised?!

[Kazak]

7. Love it, or leave it.

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

[ChiciB1]

8. Good Post!!

It sums the whole 6hing up! I too am fed up with some of our leaders not EVEN TRYING to go to bat for us!

We need to stay committed to our base and let others know how we feel!

I'll be hear til the "fat lady sings"!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

14. Is your Senator a DINO?

If not, why should said DINOs "go to bat for "? You're not their constituent. Their job is to "go to bat" for the constituents of their state. And if the people of that state want a DINO, that is what they will get.

[ChiciB1]

41. Well, You Decide For Yourself....

My DEMOCRATIC Senator is Bill Nelson! DINO enough? Then there's Mel Martinez!

And just for GOOD measure and ANOTHER kick in the pants.... Katherine Harris is my REPRESENTATIVE!

Jeb Bush is the GOVERNOR, so I've hit a TRIFECTA right here in the state of Florida!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

44. Yeah, you've got a gripe.

We're still lucky to even have Bill Nelson at this point though, given how far right Florida seems to have fallen. Better him than Katherine Harris as your Senator, no?

[ChiciB1]

53. Not Only Scary... But

Absolutely horrendous! This is one weird weird woman. Saw her in person once and she REALLY does look like Cruella (the Witch)!

Florida weather for the most part is great... but sometimes I feel like the white seed in a watermelon!

[UdoKier]

10. This is a nice statement that most of the grassroots agree with...

But unfortunately, the DINOs control the party apparatus, and more than half of our elected dems are DINOs.

:(


BTW, you have a picture of Clinton in a thread berating DINOs. It's a bit self-contradicting, IMO.

[Rowdyboy]

31. "More than half our elected dems are DINOs" How interesting...If this

is true, wouldn't that make a majority? They are the popularly elected representatives of the party. And if they're the majority, wouldn't their views represent the "real" Democratic party?

[UdoKier]

39. I don't think so. Most of them run as progressives

then they whore out when they get into office against the wishes of the people who elected them - like Biden voting for the bankruptcy bill because he's been bought out by MBNA, like Clinton voting for the IWR against the wishes of the vast majority of her constituents, like Feinstein (whose husband makes millions from defense contracts) voting for the IWR against the wishes of the vast majority of her constituents,

Like more than HALF the democrats in the senate and a significant number in the house who voted for the despicable Iraq War Resolution, like the huge majority of democrats who caved into mass hysteria and voted for the Orwellian Patriot Act without so much as READING it.

As I have said so many times before, if that represents the mainstream of the democrat party, I want no damn part of it.

[TayTay]

11. Have fun being in the minority for the forseeable future

You are never going to get everyone to vote 'your way' 100% of the time. Ever John Conyers and Barbara Boxer occassionaly vote independently and not the 'Dem' way.

By the way, it's fascist to expect everyone to vote your way or get out. Who died and elected you the God of the Democratic Party? How dare you tell me or anyone else that we need to do exactly what you want, at the exact moment you want or get out. Bite me. This is my party every bit as much as it is yours. See you at the primary, that's why we still hold them.

We need actual honest-to-gawd politicians who know how to persuade people to their point of view. We don't need absolutists who pretend to care about all of the people they represent when they really just care about people who think just like them. That's not democracy, it's fascism.

[Pacifist Patriot]

17. It reeks of "America: Love it or Leave it"

I despise that mentality.

[patcox2]

19. Authoritarian, orthodoxy, manichean.

Its all thats bad about the republic party, their devotion to ideological purity and orthodoxy and intolerance of variation therefrom, their tendency to view the world in black and white absolutes, good and evil and nothing in between.

Its what I despise about the republicans and I despise it even more when I see demorats with that authoritarian stripe.

Popping up a lot today, earlier we were all told that if you don't ascribe so completely to feminist theory that you wear a signboard saying "I AM A FEMINIST," you're not allowed in the progressive clubhouse.

[insane_cratic_gal]

18. Now start mailing it

Lets get you some addresses

Nelson, Ben- (D - NE) Class I
720 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
[phone]
Web Form: bennelson.senate.gov/email.html


Landrieu, Mary- (D - LA) Class II
724 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
[phone]
Web Form: landrieu.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm



Lieberman, Joseph- (D - CT) Class I
706 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
[phone]
Web Form: lieberman.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm?regarding=issue


Anyone else you care to add to the list?

[DaveinMD]

22. good luck

electing a progressive Democrat statewide in Nebraska and Louisiana. Lieberman is a special case.

[insane_cratic_gal]

32. The point was

how often have the two actually voted with the party? With Louisiana, has she ever voted with the dems? why put yourself under a catergory? Is it funding? Why not independent? why not Republician.

Lieberman, I didn't think he was always this bad. It seems since he lost the primary he's gotten worse in his voting.

I don't want a perfect party, or absolutism, but I don't want a Dino calling itself a Democrat when the duck is clearly voting with republicans.
It sort of divides the party does it not? On important issues such as a bankruptacy law that effects the majority of middle class americans (Democrat voters!! their contingents) you think you'd vote against it.

You'd think you wouldn't pass through a pyscho judge Brown, yet 56/43 Nelson (D-NE) I didn't even look up Owens

On the confirmation of Gonzales to Attorney General: Liked the idea
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Salazar (D-CO)


Anyway it bothers me when that matter is important to middle class america it gets screwed by a Dem from NE.

[DaveinMD]

36. Nelson of NE

Votes with us more than half the time and Landrieu about the same. The Republicans you'd get in those states would hardly ever vote with us. The others vote with us on most issues. Cabinet appointments usually get confirmed. Its very rare, so litmus tests on those votes are bound to disappoint.

[Horse with no Name]

24. It was NOT written to be sent out

It was making a point. A point that missed.

[BillZBubb]

21. I agree we have a BIG DINO problem, BUT...

absolutism won't get us anywhere either. Clinton backed NAFTA, Welfare "reform", and Waco. All those things were insults to my values--but I still think Clinton was a near great president and a great Democrat. How about you?

As a party, though, we do need some issues/values on which we will all agree. We may differ on how to best achieve those aims, that's fine. Honest disagreement is actually a plus. But those common adhered to values and objectives are what is lacking. We've got too many supposed Democrats who are transparent tools of business interests. I don't think that is an acceptable position for any real Democrat. If I am wrong, then I am in the wrong party.

[Horse with no Name]

23. I loved Clinton

and prospered under Clinton. Of course he didn't do everything as I would have liked, but I don't feel that he sold us out either. Which is exactly the point--we are being sold out in Washington.
However, this post was written to show that some of our elected leaders are not listening to us.
They are listening to Bush rhetoric. So do we need to get their attention in the same rhetoric since that is what they are listening to?
That was the point of the post. I guess it was way too cerebral for some to grasp.

[theboss]

26. Who decides who is a DINO and who is not?

I want to know if you make the final determinations or if I have a vote.

[Horse with no Name]

27. You can assign this to anyone YOU feel is a DINO

As far as I know, there isn't an official club.:)
However, in my book, Liberman and Richardson are the ones that I would like to see taken out of the political arena.

[theboss]

28. Like I said, I think Dean is a DINO

Ha...now what do I do?

[Horse with no Name]

30. Do I need to tell you?

That it doesn't matter what "we" think.
Our voices do NOT matter when our elected Representatives roll over and play dead and lockstep with the Republicans.
It doesn't matter what we think, what we need, what we hope for if our voices are not represented somewhere other than on this message board.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

50. my first suggestion would be to have your

head examined.

the rest I would leave up to you.

[LSdemocrat]

29. The problem with the Democratic party: we rarely agree on anything

In any other western industrialized country, the factions in our Democratic Party would likely form anywhere from 2-5, or so, different political parties. Sure most of those parties would form a coalition to govern, but the factions have fundamental differences. Some want strong labor laws, others want freer international markets. Some people want very liberal social policies, others want a more centrist or conservative approach. Some want higher taxes to pay for more programs, others want to maintain (or in some instances, cut) what we have now. Across the spectrum it is hard to find anything all Democrats believe in. Of course our political system lends itself to a two-party system, so a prominent third party is unlikely to ever form.

It's easy for the Republicans to be unified. All they believe in is lower taxes and a right wing social agenda.

The best approach for the Democrats is the big tent approach, where all voices left of center (of whatever center may be in a particular constituency).

[BagEnd]

49. I AGREE!!!

oops!

[jmaier]

33. With us or against us?

Where have I heard that line used over and over again in the past few years? Who is the us exactly?

Beware that the abyss looks back into you ...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. My definition of a DINO is not someone who's conservative on behavioral

issue but someone who votes to screw over the ordinary person.

As usual, the defenders of DINOism are building up a straw man of the left demanding that all Dems vote in lockstep with the farthest left wing of the party. And it IS a straw man. We are a big tent, but some of the votes I've seen recently have been inexcusable, as has some of the sucking up to Bush that I've seen since 2001.

Any Dem who says of Bushboy, "I support the president," needs a figurative spanking. Why should the average ordinary voter vote against Bush is even prominent Democrats say they support him?

The red states may want no gun control, restrictions on abortion, and gays back in the closet. I can understand how some Dems may have to take those positions if their constituents do. (Congresscritters like Peter DeFazio of Oregon and Jim Oberstar of Minnesota come to mind.)

But what good are Congresscritters who vote with the Republicanites on issues such as tax cuts for the rich, the bankruptcy bill, and other pro-corporate, anti-ordinary person measures that seem to be popping up every day and also go on TV to criticize fellow Dems for being "too far left" or "too obstrucctionist"?

Compared to the corporate shills who are always telling populists to shut up and be bipartisan, the people who accuse other Democrats of being DINOs have no public presence at all.

Tell me how a Congress person who consistently votes on the reverse Robin Hood platform of pampering the rich and screwing over the poor is a good Democrat.

Because he's for abortion rights and gay rights? No, that's not enough. If those are his only "Democratic" positions, then he's really a Libertarian, especially if he brags about being "pro-business" and being for "stronger defense," which is shorthand for "I never met a corporate giveaway or a military pork barrel project I didn't like."

Note how it's always the left wing of the party that's supposed to sit down and shut up and grow up and join the "adults" who pursue the yuppie agenda. Note how it's always the right wing of the Democratic party that's getting face time in the mass media criticizing the left wing, not the other way around.

This country has serious, desperate needs that are not being met (health care, secure employment, reducing dependence on oil, fixing the schools, affordable housing), the Republicans are not speaking to them, the DINOs aren't talking about them, and they treat Dems who DO talk about these issues like embarrassing little siblings who should go watch cartoons in the other room and let the grown-ups get on with the grave business of removing obstacles to the further enrichment of the rich.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're not in power. So what? Did the Republicans stop talking about THEIR agenda when they were out of power?

The Dems need to propose practical, easily explainable solutions for these problems and talk them up at every level from dog catcher to senior Senator. Otherwise, the canard that "the Democrats have no ideas" seems plausible to the average uninformed American, and they go into the voting booth thinking, "At least the Republicans stand for something."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. Hmm, I guess they've gone over to the feminism thread

:-)

[walldude]

43. Good post Lydia..

Exactly my thoughts. There seem to be a number of people who want to do the "get along" thing. Well I'm done getting along. I say any Dem who voted for the bankrupcy bill, tax cuts for the rich, medicare cuts, cuts to veterans, etc, etc, can go find themselves a new freakin party. I'll be more than happy to go back to "get along and compromise" mode as soon as people are not dying, losing jobs, homes, health insurance, etc, etc..

[hfojvt]

45. at least in the case of a Kansas Democrat

he votes for Democratic amendments, but after they are defeated and final passage is assured, he votes for it to save his electoral hide. If Dems have a majority in the house, it would be a different story.
To have an opponent able to say "he voted against a tax cut" is a dangerous thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. So in other words, he doesn't have the courage of his convictions?

If a vote is justifiable (voting against the tax cut), a Congress person should take the opportunity at every public appearance (and have every Kansas Dem at every public appearance do the same) and say something like, "Yes, I voted against the tax cut, because it wasn't a tax cut for YOU, it was a tax cut for fat cats only."

No wonder people think the Dems don't stand for anything. :-(

[Horse with no Name]

47. Nice post. eom

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Thanks!

The "far left" is the only group that seems to care about these problems that have such an impact on so many Americans.

[welshTerrier2]

56. great post !!

you really hit on the two key elements of the great DINO defense some keep peddling here ...

the first is that some try to justify DINO votes by claiming we (i.e. the Party) are out of power or we have to move to the center to attract more republicans ... what the DINO defenders very rarely argue is the impact of these votes on, as you said, the "serious, desperate needs" the country has ... so point one is that the DINO's are failing to endorse and fight for the policies that the country needs ...

the second defense i regulary see suggests that the only way to WIN is to move to the center ... criticizing DINO's is labeled as "dem bashing" at a time we are already the minority party ... blame is placed on the left because we are seen as weakening the party by our attacks ... DINO's are the rational, pragmatic Democrats that don't require "purity or perfection" and they are not all wrapped up in their naive idealism ... this argument emphasizes the political, as opposed to the policy, considerations ... of course, there's that annoying little reality: the Party's endless drift to the right has resulted in crushing election failures ... the right-wing of the Party has controlled the Party's agenda and should be held responsible for driving the Party into the ground ... the political argument from those who engineered our current predicament is absurd ...

and the saddest part of all of this is that the Democratic Party, or at least its controlling right wing, does not understand the inter-relationship between good policy and good politics ... the good news is that the two are highly correlated ... when we fight like warriors for our beliefs, we will start to realize more political success ... when we look for "pretty framing" of policies that are fundamentally republican, we will get exactly what we've been getting ...

it's time to either force intra-party negotiations or make the rift real by leaving the party ... staying under the current conditions is NOT an option ... it is outrageous to call on any citizen to remain in a party that does not represent them and refuses to negotiate with them ...

[pinto]

52. Electoral politics needs the involvement of the electorate on the ground.

I'm a staunch supporter of putting some effort behind candidates at the state and local level, as well as the national level. If there are no acceptable candidates being run, get involved in the local Dem party and let them know. No good national (Reps and Senate) candidates? - speak up to your state party and let them know you disagree with the candidate being considered. When you see a candidate that garners your support, do the footwork and provide whatever support you can. Repeat and repeat. It may take time.

We run a risk of inadvertently supporting an "all or nothing" stand, which in electoral politics eventually becomes ineffectual, and self limiting. I appreciate the culture of debate our party has always represented, and the culture of broad based, sustainable progress for our country we have fostered.

I think the Republicans are beginning to see the danger of "all or nothing" with the deliberate hijack of their party by extremist conservatives.

Just my personal 2 cents. Thanks for your post.