On feminism and collective ignorance

[Tsiyu]

There is such a collective ignorance about history no thread on feminism could even begin to enlighten. Like we just woke up one day and women could vote and acquire property and become cops.

How do you think it made me feel, as a small girl, when I was forced to wear a dress to school? Couldn't go play on the playground in a dress: Limitation. Why did I have to wear a dress but boys could wear pants?

How do you think I felt reading that women should just want to be mommies and wives? How do you think i felt as I got older and read about the horrors women endured before there were domestic violence laws? Or before laws requiring mandatory schooling for girls? Or before there were laws that let a woman own her own home or her own business?

Don't you think I spent many years wondering why men were so afraid of women, they would limit them in these ways? Why did men want women to be unable to casts ballots, unable to own their own homes? Unable to inherit the estates of their families? What hatred for women caused men to want to hold them back in these ways? Explain that, and you will understand why feminism is necessary.

Some say the word "Feminism" is "inflammatory." They refuse to see how they have been brainwashed into this belief, just as many are brainwashed to believe "liberal" is a pejorative term.

Is what is "feminine" so frightening? If we lift up the female and say, "look at her. Look at how we have held her back; let's work on issues that will put women on an equal playing field with men" how in HELL does that make anyone frightened or alarmed or offended?

I suppose if you know nothing of history, if you have no compassion and if you ENJOYED the fact that women were once left uneducated and unprotected, you can poo poo the relevance of a movement that sought to lift women out of the state of being unable to control their own lives, careers, education and property.

If the past was good enough for you, and if the movement that sought to correct injustice and unfairness of that past offends you, you most certainly CANNOT be a progressive.

[donsu]

1. kick

nt

[Tsiyu]

3. Thanks for that

:kick:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. Great post. Thanks for striving for understanding.

Many do not realize feminism was BORN of the NEED for equality and that it has only been over the past 30 years that women have even BEGUN to achieve equality.

I'm also a bit amused by the men that are so offended at the notion of a feminist forum after reading some of the inane posts on the threads announcing the feminist forum. If anything, it demonstrates why such a forum is necessary on DU. So much disruption from an announcement and not a single tombstone.

[Tsiyu]

7. NSMA, I am just amazed at how ignorant people are

And fellow Dems to boot! They really are failing our kids when it comes to teaching history. Perhaps some of this nation's history teachers are letting Rush instruct their classes? I don't know, but we really need open discussions on this issue and we really need some folks to "put themselves in others' shoes."

Thanks for the support;)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. We've gotta recognize some are not fellow Dems

while not accusing them of that in a thread. It's a shame that the rules work against us and can be manipulated by people with an intent to disrupt, but the rules favor them.

You can't call an asshole an asshole, a pig a pig, or a misogynist a misogynist, but you CAN POST THINLY VEILED slams against feminism and remain a member of good standing on DU and even achieve victim status for it. Ironic, eh?

[Tsiyu]

No doubt

Most of us can smell 'em after a post or two but well-meaning DUers fall into their trap every time there is a thread on this issue.

But we can keep the discussion going on our own terms. Ha!

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[NashVegas]

89. You Know What, NSMA?

I would have locked it, too, if I thought it was the least bit insincere. And because really, it probably would have been the DU guys' place to ask for this.

I find it sad that the original post in this thread, as brilliantly truthful as it is, is even necessary to post on DU. Appalling that some people don't get it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

100. Thanks

but if you read MY posts in that thread, it was not insincere. Men had complaints and did not act so I acted on their behalf. If all the ones asking if there would be a "masculinist forum" in the "feminist" thread or complaining about feminism posted in that thread, they would have a "masculinist" forum right now.

The fact that not a single man complaining about the feminist forum has come forward to ask for a "masculinist" forum speaks to their intent to disrupt any thread about feminism but somehow AGAIN no tombstones have been provided for men who will disrupt any thread about feminism, but they will now complain that there is a forum where these conversations take place that they cannot intentionally disrupt?

If one can look beyond the LETTER of the rule, to the "spirit" of the rule to lock *MY* thread, why then can't they look past that same letter to the SPIRIT of the rule when addressing men that will disrupt on any thread where the subject is feminism?

[NashVegas]

135. Yeah, Well

Let's look at language?

"Masculinist" as I currently understand it, isn't a term for a guy just standing around scratching his 'nads. It's a term for guys who are promoting the notion of arbitrarily putting women back in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant or what have you.

I have a hard time believing you would really want to see a users' group like that here on DU. The scratchers, maybe, it might even be cute, but ...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

143. Here's the deal. If they were asking in sincerity and had an

actual mission for those areas where they claim inequities then I would support them so long as their intent was not sexist and broke no rules.

It would be sexist on our part to think men did not have issues germaine to a men's forum regardless of the name of it.

[bloom]

274. ...

While I don't have issues with you - I do think there are issues with the Masculinist movement - esp. given that for many - it is working against feminism - not toward humanism or egalitarianism or with feminism.

While there may be some men - with sincere issues - who would look for positive ways for men to adapt to a changing world - that does seem to be the predominant focus.

And also While feminism means different things to different people - there are a lot of masculinists who only see that they are victims and that is annoying. Not that people don't have a right to see themselves as victims - and I'm convinced that everyone can if they try had enough - who knows what all B**H thinks that HE is a victim of.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinist

According to some masculists, feminists consider the genders as having the same capacities in virtually every respect and denounce differentiated gender roles as an oppressive artificial construct. These masculists believe, to the contrary, that profound gender differences are inherent in human nature, and claim that feminists who have attempted to negate these differences by legislation and other means are viewed to be taking people through a fallacious experiment. However, this view is also held by many who are not masculists, and there are masculists such as Warren Farrell who celebrate the notion of a gender-free society and fluid gender roles. Many masculists ascribe to feminism the high rates of divorce (see marriage strike), alienation of the genders, female chauvinism, love-shyness, disintegrating communities, fatherless children, high school dropout, drug addiction, consumerism, teenage pregnancy, male suicide, violent crime(especially murder), road rage, and overfilled prisons. Others argue that all these points have reasons and origins that are multi-faceted in nature, and that feminism is not the sole cause of this.


Some masculists further state that sexual equality laws (beginning with the Civil Rights Act of 1964) have resulted in making feminist ideology, as they see it, as mainstream - that such laws serve primarily women and have created significant unconstitutional discrimination against men. While, in their view, some feminists rail against an "all-powerfulpatriarchy", many masculists consider patriarchy "inevitable". Many masculists accuse feminists of characterizing women as powerless victims of patriarchal oppression, and of using this as a device to justify the negative views they may have of men and the moves seen as the curtailing of men's rights. Some masculists claim that so-called "fascist feminism" has achieved a covert matriarchy by means of such devices, helped by chivalry towards women that itself undermines the notion of female oppression.<more>

[Name removed]

300. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hfojvt]

331. rules are tough, but flexible too

why do you need to call a misogynist a misogynist instead of saying "what you said here (insert quote) is misogynistic"? Why do you need to talk about whether a DUer is an "a$$hole" instead of simply showing that they are wrong, or mean-spirited in this case.
There is nothing in the rules that says you cannot educate the ignorant, humble the arrogant, or chide the cruel, you just cannot use name-calling or personal attacks to do so.

[getmeouttahere]

11. BEGUN being the key word there....

but BushCo is taking us backwards. Reproductive rights are their next target.

With that in mind, if you haven't already, check out this website:

www.34millionfriends.org

[NashVegas]

90. What Do You Mean, "Next"?

It's already here.

[Deep13]

4. here! here!

:applause: :woohoo: :yourock:

Ya' know what? I like women. I don't want to be married to some kind of lesser being. I want (and have) a real partner. I don't want my mother or sister to be serfs. We cannot be a free society if half of us are automatically left behind, even if they are not left as far behind as they once were or as far behind as some other women in the world.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. What a wonderful comment

Men who understand this are high on my list of REAL MEN.

[Tux]

27. One thing though

Most men are sexist through 2 things: religion and politics. I include sexual politics as part of regular politics since the abortion issue came up again. Many men are raised to see women as inferior due to Eve and others are scared of women owning businesses, owning their own homes (religious views can enter here too), and getting an education which means men would have to compete with women for jobs.

All in all, feminists need to stop the man bashing and focus on issues. Womyn need better treatment than what BushInc has been pushing.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. True...but some men automatically interpret feminism as

"man bashing." I agree that generalizations are not good, but quite REGULARLY on DU one sees terms generally ROOTED in hatred of women used to describe women and even men.

[Tsiyu]

54. Tux, i did not man bash

I don't even think I mentioned gender as I describe those who "hate" feminism. Many women are afraid of this movement as well.

[EFerrari]

103. There you go. See my #75. I think this is what lit the fire.

Not that any of us are sensitive or anything. lol

[Tsiyu]

15. Thanks

We need the energies and talents and imagination of both genders to enjoy a truly free, truly whole society.

There are years of injustice to undo, but some would have us go back, while others fail to see the tremendous strides brave people have made toward gender equality.

Feminism is not frightening. It is an uplifting movement, and many men have helped the cause, for sure.

[Spazito]

5. Well said!

:kick:

[Tsiyu]

21. Thank you

:hi:

[libnnc]

6. kick-a-roonie

:kick:

:applause:

[Tsiyu]

24. Thanks for the kick

:kick:

i thought this might drop like a rock!

[EFerrari]

8. Aside: Ever notice that as soon as Feminism began to gain

real ground, the very next second, we were living in "post-feminism"?

lol

[Tsiyu]

36. Yeah, cuz everything is equal now!

Gotta love the fear some have of women having a little control over their own lives. I can't imagine how ugly I would feel if I hated men. If I thought it was acceptable that they made less money for the same work, if I thought it was acceptable for women to harrass them if they do work that is traditionally "women's work," if I knew that, for generations, men were prohibited from earning a decent living or voting or owning property yet I HATED the movement that gave them those rights.

I can't imagine loathing the male gender the way many loathe the female gender and any strides that gender has made toward equality.

[FizzFuzz]

420. Really good point, in addition to a Kick Ass OP

:hi: buddyhollysghost, thank you so much for this.

I hadn't thought of this angle before, but you're right. I can't imagine either, the violence men perpetrate on women, women and children who have done nothing to them. I can't understand the constant twisting of statistics I see frquently that tries to avoid the fact that 80% of sexual attacks are male on female. similar numbers for pedophile crimes. (not sure of exact statistic. May be low estimate)

Or the slave trade--just saw a post elsewhere that minimized the gender imbalanced nature of it.

[cally]

423. This is a great post

I've never considered this but you are right. It's ugly.

I'm coming in late to this but thanks for your initial post.

[ProfessorGAC]

162. What The Heck Is Post-Feminist, Anyway?

I can't even begin to figure out what that means. Are black people now living post-black existences because the Civil Rights Act was passed in the 60's?

It's just a stupid non-concept, isn't it?
The Professor

[EFerrari]

176. One would think so. In the early 90s at Cal, it seemed to be

considered a historical period i.e., the contemporary period. Unfortunately, all us post feminists continued to write criticism anyway.

:)

[ProfessorGAC]

183. But, Even As A Historical Period. . .

. . .it's post- of what? It at least makes some logical sense, sort of like post-Bop in music, or post-Impressionism in painting. It doesn't make any sense for any philosophical construct to be post- anything.

And, if it's in the historical sense, then what period preceeded it, how did it end, and what fomented the transition?

I don't get the value of the term, i guess.
The Professor

[EFerrari]

189. It has no value, it's psuedo logic, as you point out.

But it was a nice try to shut us up. lol

[ProfessorGAC]

195. Hey, I Was Agreeing With You

I'm not trying to shut anybody up. See my reply to the OP near the bottom of this thread.
The Professor

[EFerrari]

202. Oh, I understand that! It was used on grad students and other

academics in that bastion of the librul elite, the Berkeley Eng Dept for years in an effort to avoid the whole debate.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

448. I'm very much not an expert on this -

I'm a mathematician, not a cultural or literary theorist - but isn't there a school of literary criticism specifically referred to as "feminist literary criticism", which has certain specific ideas and approaches to it, and to which not all literary criticism that is by feminists belongs? I suspect there's probably and equivalent philosophical movement, although I know even less about that.

If this is the case, surely "post-feminist" is, or at any rate could be, a meaningful term to describe philosphical movements or literary approaches that developed from that school, but are not part of it?

Like "post-modern" - even more of an oxymoron than post feminist, but refering to "following from the Modernist movement", not "following from everything modern"?

[EFerrari]

454. That's a logical and very generous reading of the term.

I haven't read much criticism in the last five years. When I was up to date, it was very much a term of dismissal, as in "Oh, that is so five minutes ago."

:)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

185. First thoughts on this....

One thing that comes to mind is that IMHO, feminism became passe' when female role models like Madonna emerged and began teaching girls that their empowerment comes from exploiting their own sexuality, which actually was nothing more than a twisted form of "male identification", or identifying oneself by the traditionally male standards. The desire to attract the opposite sex being pretty strong in adolescent girls, this caught on big, and the media trotted out plenty of "feminists" to confirm, yes indeed, Madonna is a GOOD thing, Madonna EMPOWERS grrrls... Thus a whole generation grew up thinking THIS was feminism, while the older generation of feminists went slinking off wondering what happened. What do you think?

[ProfessorGAC]

198. Hmmmm?

Now that may at least make some sense, but i guess i still don't understand how that is post- of anything. The earlier "generation" of feminists are still around, no? So, we can't be post-those women. The concepts of the feminist movement to achieve equality are still extant, so Madonna or no Madonna, we can't be post-the concept.

That's why i was trying to find out if this really meant something or whether it was just a pseudo-intellectual tidbit that meant nothing.

I got an earlier reply that helped convince me it's the latter.
The Professor

[eowyn_of_rohan]

205. I hear you

It is only POST feminist in the sense of it being passe in pop culture ... some of the "elders" got tired, confused, discouraged, and the media didn't give their views any play anymore--or ridiculed their OUT OF DATE attitudes and beliefs... Now one has to go to a university or college, and take a class in feminist theory to find out what feminism really means...Seems that way to me anyway.

[EFerrari]

227. In the academe, "feminism" became "post" when French

critics started to challenge the notion of subjectivity.

The argument went, feminist theory is founded on the idea that people have a subjectivity that is independent of everything around them. This is not true, so feminist theory is passe.

So, while the media was eroding feminism in pop culture, the thought police were doing it to college kids in terms they barely understood. Double whammie.

/typin'

[ProfessorGAC]

240. A Bit Convenient, Huh?

It's still not post anything, but someone just decided it was over, so it was over. Can we just wish this was the post-Li'l Georgie era?
The Professor

[eowyn_of_rohan]

273. Appears that certain groups of MEN decided it was over -nt

[EFerrari]

293. It became an equal opportunity political gambit because all

those women in the department need dissertation directors, fellowships and finally, JOBS.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

258. Huh? Tres interessant

I haven't heard that there was a French origin for the concept or term, but will do some more studying on this. It wasn't happening as of the 80s, in my blue state university, but I guess that was quite awhile ago!

[EFerrari]

269. Lacan. Jacques Lacan, who has a lot to answer for.

What is really interesting is that the ideas he floated were RUSHED to invalidate some really inconvenient areas of study: feminist studies, ethnic studies, glbt studies. There's a pattern here, no?

It, if my memory serves, hit my university in the late 80s, but began to do real damage in the early 90s.

And then Toni Morrison got her Nobel prize. :evilgrin:

[valis]

285. Don't know. Alway thought Lacan was a phony...

[EFerrari]

303. I don't know if he's a phony, valis. But do know that people took

his ideas and RAN to use them to shut down conversations about gender, race and sexuality.

/typin' from hell

[valis]

315. I had to study that sh*t when I was in Europe. He always sounded to

me as a bullshitter, regardless of what people did with his "theories".

[eowyn_of_rohan]

324. I think the biggest enemies are those who RUSHED the concept, eh?

It seems perhaps Lacan's original premise was quite different from the spin that has come since. I found this comment re "post feminism" after you pointed me in the Jacques Lacan direction:

"...the term "post feminism" refers to the ways in which the boundaries between feminists and non-feminists have become increasingly blurred. This is partly (read PARTLY) due to the success of feminism in addressing gender inequality to the point where it is no longer the preserve of a minority group, but rather, has become a staple concern of mainstream culture.

[EFerrari]

346. I don't know enough about Lacan himself to have an opinion about

him or his motives or agenda. But, there sure was a rush to the door.

One thing I do know about him, he sat on a mss of a very important theorist that he was to translate for more than a decade and HER work was neglected as a result . . .

[stickdog]

434. Ah yes, the post-modernist call to canonize the canon. (nt)

[tishaLA]

492. If I'm following this thread correctly...

You are suggesting that the French (feminists?) and Lacan specifically have something to do with post feminism? I'd be interested in hearing how that is true, especially since Lacan is hardly a feminist, even though feminists have appropriated him as they did Freud to do feminist interventions in literary and cultural theory.

I would have a hard time, as well, understanding how Irigaray, Cixous, Wittig, or Kristeva (whose writing I dislike) is in any way "post feminist." Irigaray and Kristeva, in particular, are frequently criticized for their essentialism.

Is Derrida, Deleuze, or Foucault a feminist? I think that's a site of potential debate, although I read them all that way. I wrote a too-long post in the Feminist forum about postmodern feminism and its purported relationship to post-feminism and "third wave" feminism. Typically, it didn't attract much attention.

[EFerrari]

501. Actually, my point was that Lacan was appropriated by critics

even more antifeminist than he managed to be, lol, and used his work to dismiss a number of projects, feminist criticism being one of them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

232. That's my issue with third wave feminism

These women in a few short years undid all the work done before them to accomplish equity and tone down the objectification of women. While I COMPLETELY support them doing as they wish with their own bodies, even Madonna has to admit her tits and ass actually PRECLUDE her from being heard when she wants to make a broader political point

[ProfessorGAC]

245. And, If She Tries To Make A Larger Point. . .

. . .she is either dismissed as a pair of boobs or she needs to be MORE outrageious to be heard, which then marginalizes her actual opinion even further.

As long as she's happy sleeping on her big pile of money, i guess.
The Professor

[eowyn_of_rohan]

263. oh yeah...

and the male controlled media likes Madonna's brand of feminism WAY better. They can't make as much MONEY off Gloria Steinem--though she is the PRETTIEST of the well-known feminists and used to be a PLAYBOY bunny...

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. Who said that?

Please cite and link the post here

on edit: PROGRESSIVE has its roots in the word PROGRESS. If you don't stand for women making PROGRESS over the past legislated INBRED inequities in our system, it stands to reason you are NOT progressive.

[libnnc]

17. "It's the notion put out by so-called feminists...

that the only thing men do is sit around, twisting our mustaches, thinking about way to keep women down..."

Have you got a source for that statement buddy, or are you just making another sweeping generalization based on a negative stereotype of feminism?

Grow from love, friend. :hi:

[VelmaD]

20. Isn't fun when a man tells us...

that they know what feminism is better than women do?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

31. Yes, and it's wonderful when women tell men what they are too.

[VelmaD]

38. Yeah...because we've had so much control...

of the world and the various mediums for forcing our opinions on men. :eyes:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

59. Because I personally have had so much control!

What does that have to do with this thread? As if I, personally, have been the one controlling ANYTHING. Tell ya what, I don't have control over anything, much less world and media domination. No one is exactly taking my word for gospel, and especially not simply because I'm a man.

This attitude of yours is EXACTLY what I'm referring to - the notion that every man is just DYING for the opportunity to control a woman. I expressed an opinion that you have every right to disagree with, and yet you treat it as if I'm violating some human rights code.

[VelmaD]

76. You have to deal with the fact...

that all men benefit daily from unearned advantage just from being born male. You may not have as much advantage as some men...but you get it whether you want to admit it or not. Many people would look at me and you and immediately assume you are more qualified, more competent and more rational than me without knowing anything else about us other than you are male and I am female. You may not want to acknowledge this...but it's easy for you not to see it because you aren't the one who loses out.

I've been reading some of your other posts...about men in custody hearings and whatnot. All I can tell you is that if you have a problem with how the system is set up you have no one but other men to blame. But I understand it's easier for you to harp at "feminists" than to actually address those currently in a position of power to change things.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

108. I didn't say there wasn't an unearned advantage

Yeah, there's absolutely an unearned advantage on a lot of issues - there's no denying that whatsoever. What does that have to do with the context of this discussion? I am not in a setting where this inherent advantage exists. I am one man in a thread full of women. Sorry, but in THIS scenario, the advantage is fully on your side. And no, this is not a common occurence, nor do I wish to portray it as such.

My problem is that what can I personally do about this unearned advantage? I know I can continue what I'm doing in working for women's right and attending rallies in solidarity with organizations like NOW. Oh that's right, you had your own prejudice as to who I am because I was insulted at being depicted as a scared control freak. That might have been the case as early as twenty to thirty years ago, but saying that's why feminism is needed TODAY is not true and it's quite offensive. Threads like this push away men who might otherwise want to help, or at least be sympathetic to the cause. I'm frankly sick and tired of being labeled an evil man for opening my mouth at all. How is stereotyping men effective in eliminating stereotypes of women?

[VelmaD]

121. Yet again you have missed the essential point...

that many men continue to engage in the "stereotypical" behavior. It is still necessary to call them on it. If that doesn't include you then don't read it as specifically aimed at you...but also don't go around denying the reality of the women who keep trying to tell you that "yes...some men still act that way".

[Inland]

126. That's the thing about stereotypes.

People engage in stereotypical behavior---they often don't occur out of nowhere---but it's unfair to the individual to assume he shares, or it to blame for, the stereotype OR the behavior.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

I don't see the phrase "some men" in this thread.

And that is the entirety of my problem.

[Lars39]

123. There are men(and women,too) that would take us back to pre-voting

days in a heartbeat.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

132. Of course there are!!

But I'm not one of them! I don't want to be lumped in with them! And it denigrates the efforts of people like me when it isn't acknowledged that there are a lot of men that AREN'T like that. I, personally, am not the enemy, yet by being a man, in a lot of people's eyes, I automatically am. That is not fair and that is the entire problem I have.

[FizzFuzz]

422. BHG describes historical fact, which is not the same as stereotyping

If you wonder how you as a man can help, but don't know what to do, the answer is simple.

Read the numerous posts by other men here who aren't confused on how to help. Learn from them.

"Stick with the winners" and you'll have no need to bash them.

("this scenario, the advantage is on your side"..Huh? There is no power exchange or grab going on here. This is a thread of observations on how women have been treated historically.)

[Inland]

120. Why can't you give the guy his two cents worth?

He has no personal control over any situation, but because someone else who actually is in power gives him the benefit of the the doubts of his gender, it's HIS FAULT?

He believes in equal rights, but some men don't, so he gets lumped in with the rest of them?

He's a powerless individual, but because "you have nobody but other men to blame", he has to actually JOIN in blaming all men for the for the faults of the few? By the way, can he also blame those regressive women who continue to vote for pro-life, anti-equal pay candidates, or is he to blame for the fact they are misguided too?

Here's my suggestion. Vlad believes as he believes, and does what he does. Give him credit or blame as an individual and stop applying negative gender stereotypes to him, and stop assigning group blame.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

124. That's really all I'm saying.

I find it offensive to be lumped in with the people that truly deserve scorn. There are a LOT of good men out there that deserve credit for their contributions, and yet threads like these would have you believe we are all control freaks. I'm sorry, but standing up for my name is make me no less a progressive than anyone else.

[VelmaD]

129. Do you understand how the words...

"so called feminists" in his post started this whole thing? It comes across awfully high-handed and pushes a huge button for many women who have spent all our lives having men try to tell us what "real" feminism is and what issues are "important" and what we should worry about.

[Inland]

136. Yes, and you have to understand

that I too don't understand what is being asked when it is implied that we are either "feminist" or out of the 1800s.

Why don't YOU tell me what real feminism is, before making us all fell bad for not leaping to join in? If it's being for equal rights and the end of enforced gender roles, repro rights, and the end of stereotyping, I'm in and it seem Vlad is in.

What more do you want before you give him his two cents? What is this "feminism" if he doesn't have it?

[VelmaD]

140. Why do you keep insisting...

on someone being a monolithic spokesperson on the deinition of feminism?

And where are you getting from the OP that there's more involved than just equlal rights, ending enforced gender roles, etc?

[Inland]

151. Well, wait a second....

first you were offended by the fact that Vlad said "so called feminists", which means he had a definition that either excluded you or included himself, now you say that you won't provide a definition at all?

Not even your own definiton?

Not even the OPs definition?

It seems to me that if it's equal rights, ending enforced gender roles, being fro repro rights, and ending harmful stereotyping---well, who in DU can't sign onto to that? There are, what, two prolifers out of 80,000?

The more I ask, the less I get. Just what is being complained about, really? Who is the problem, really?

Just give Vlad his two cents. It seems that he deserves the two.

[VelmaD]

159. Do you have any point in this thread...

other than to try to defend another man?

Just curious.

You've got a definition of feminism that works fine for most people on the left. But your posts demanding a definition from a woman seem more to me an attempt to bait and to force some sort of admission of a deep, hidden agenda that frankly isn't there rather than an attempt at understanding.

[Inland]

173. I thought so, but once again, I'm wondering what its all about.

I mean, really beginning to wonder if I didn't stumble into one of those discussions that's merely a dance around things that cannot be named.

If there's no deep, hidden agenda, then there's no deep hidden agenda and there isn't any reason to be evasive.

I think my points were pretty explicitly stated: people do what people do, and its unfair to assign blame or responsibility or power on the basis of gender, and the term "feminist" is undefined and I feel uncomfortable signing on until I know what I am signing on to. And as a corollary, Vlad deserves blame or credit for what he did or didn't do for women's rights. I thought he deserved two cents of credit for doing the right thing. I consider that a defense of doing the right thing.

Enjoy the dance.

[VelmaD]

192. Congratulations...

you've figured out that we have a super-secret agenda that cannot be discussed. So go ahead and have all your friends bookmark this post where I finally admitted that we really want to kill all the men but we'll settle for taking away your right to vote or own property and having you do all the cooking, cleaning, and childcare for the next several centuries.

Happy now? :)

[Inland]

390. It's half a loaf.

I now understand that in fact there is some issue you cannot or will not fully disclose. What that is, of course, you aren't going to tell me. It's half a loaf, but at least I don't have to waste time in the error that we were speaking the same language when I was bringing up womens rights and just plain fairness.

Have a good time not discussing what's important to you.

[VelmaD]

399. Were you born without a sense of humor...

or did you have it surgically removed?

[Tsiyu]

415. You have to define feminism for yourself

I think I indicated that feminism as a movement was responsible for my having rights I was denied earlier in our nation's history. This is so freaking sad to even have put up with this kind of nitpicking. It's as if i said we should stone men to death or that all men on the planet are evil.

but some here WANT to hear that, because then they feel justified in turning their backs on the whole struggle.

But let me lay this out for you VERY CLEARLY:

There are some Democrats who are total bottom feeding scumsuckers. There are Democrats I strongly and vehemently disagree with on policy, practice, lots of issues and concerns. But I AM STILL A DEMOCRAT.

The same follows with feminism. Those of you who expect or demand to find a movement without a few kooks or zealots are telling me that the Women's movement has to hold to a higher standard of behavior than any other movement or else you will completely scorn that movement.

That's wrong.

[beam me up scottie]

428. BHG if I could nominate one post...

this would be it.
I can't, of course but I did nominate the thread, hoping that more people will be tempted to read all of the posts.

VERY illuminating.

Bravo for taking this on, you are far braver than I.

I am thrilled to see that many people here have learned something from this thread and affirmed what I already knew about most DU men;
that they support us not just because it's the right thing to do for women, but because it is the right thing to do for everyone.

Again, BRAVO !

:applause:

[Tsiyu]

443. Thanks bmus!!!!!

Very kind words, Friend.

To me, it is imperative that Democrats understand that Repukes WANT them to hate feminism. They want them to demonize and marginalize the tremendous gains and rights feminism has secured.

When Dems ask themselves why? they can begin to see that feminism has had - and has now - a huge impact on this party, whatever your opinion on the "word" feminism. This is what I wish so many could understand. Normally, however, threads like this are locked before any progress is made. DU has outdone itself here, becasue I feel progress WAS made, and I take no credit for it. All day, I've been saying, "See what happens when you empty your head first thing after you get up?" It's been kind of funny but took over the biggest part of my day when i wasn't driving.


ANYHOO_AS long as the Democratic party silences feminists, or worse, demonizes them, the party will turn off the very men and women it needs to grow and build a better America.

[beam me up scottie]

461. I am always stunned at

the number of progressives who are usually the first ones to jump on the bandwagon when it comes to ridiculing the pukes for buying the reichwing memes and yet fall for this tripe hook, line and sinker.

Do they really not see the correlation between the vilifying of liberals and what the christonazis have done to feminism?

It's not rocket science people.

To anyone who is still on the fence, might I suggest a day trip to freeperville?
Just make sure to wear protection and get out before dark.

[noiretextatique]

468. i would nominate this post..."it's not rocket science people" re: rw memes

:applause: i've been saying this for a long time here. our side has got to stop falling for rw memes, wedge issues, and "cultural war" rhetoric.

[beam me up scottie]

470. Thank you.

The other one that is seen frequently on DU is the anti-immigration meme.
Makes my blood boil, I tell you. :mad:
Perhaps if we were to post similar opinions from the dark side (freeperville) in reply it would sink in.
But I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Zenlitened]

485. Beautiful post.

:applause:

[FizzFuzz]

424. Common knowledge that the phrase "so-called ____" is an insult.

You are avoiding consideration of that linguistic fact.

Hard to continue discussion when that is the starting point. Particularly when the person who first said it then wants props for being a friend to women?

I am confused with your reasoning, and what it is you seem to want women to do so that you'll be comfortable "signing on."

If any African Americans and Caucasians were discussing white priveledge and how it has shaped history and harmed their personal lives, would you be comfortable taking the role you and Vash are taking here?

[lukasahero]

188. Doesn't anyone here own a dictionary?

One more time, from www.dictionary.com

fem·i·nism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fm-nzm)
n.
Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
The movement organized around this belief.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

feminism

n 1: a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women
2: the movement aimed at equal rights for women

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Now, why would anyone who hasn't been drinking the koolaid think it means anything more than that?

So, what's the real issue here - that you don't understand the definition of feminism or that you want women to admit it has some sort of conspiritorial meaning?

[Zenlitened]

218. "..why would anyone who hasn't been drinking the koolaid...

... why would anyone who hasn't been drinking the koolaid think it means anything more than that?"

Well put. :hi:

I think part of the problem is that some people don't even realize how little they know about feminism, or how many lies about it they've bought wholesale.

It's a blue-pill/red-pill kind of thing.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

323. Dictionaries are nice, but they fail to see context of the words used.

Sorry, but that's missing the point entirely. You can use the word feminism, but if the word is surrounded by comments aimed at villifying men, its meaning gets distorted rather quickly.

[Tsiyu]

416. So if one guy rapes me

I am not allowed to say it was a man who did so because that villifies all men?

How backward! Men wrote the bad laws and you can't change that. Or did monkeys deny women rights? I can't discuss the necessity of the movement without discussing the sins of those responsible, and since virtually all legislators were men when those laws were written, who else do I blame? The sky?

If you think my discussing men in history is evil, then most of the history I was taught is evil.

[noiretextatique]

478. perhaps you're just projecting

is it that the word is surrounded by comment aimed at villifying men, or is it that your perception of the word is distorted to mean "comments aimed at villifying men?

[Inland]

417. I understand it, thanks.

In fact, I think I GAVE that definition, more or less.

But why would anyone think that someone could have any other sort of meaning in mind? Why, anyone who thinks that impossibility is just a kool-aid drinker, and not a feminist at all, you say. Therefore I manage to qualify as a feminist under the supposed definition and then become a koolaid drinker due to a disagreement in the next sentence. Not even a disagreement--a question by you and a presumed answer.

Ironically, your common, all to easy definition was contradicted before your post could even end.

So maybe I'm better off just asking.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

138. High handed?

Sorry, but I have the right to stand up for myself. I don't relinquish that just because I'm a man and men have historically been assholes.

If you have the right to tell me whether or not I'm a progressive because of one issue, I have the right to tell you whether or not you're a feminist if you label all men as being scared control freaks.

[VelmaD]

145. Go read my post 137

You've just made me MUCH more interested in your answer there.

[noiretextatique]

71. why are you being do defensive? hmmm?

i didn't notice your name in the original post, and i didn't see the comment you attributed to the poster. perhaps you need to stop projecting.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. You feel hate because BuddyHolly'sGhost actually pointed out

WHY feminism as a movement became necessary? HOw truly odd.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

39. I'm sure that's how you see it.

And heaven forbid someone else take it differently, right? How truly odd indeed.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. explain yourself without generalizations and point to the exact

"hatred" in her post and maybe I will see your point.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

60. Yes, that sounds so very open minded.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. Again, if you have a point, MAKE IT!

All I asked for is which comment promoted HATRED? If it exists, it shouldn't be hard to cite, should it?

[Tsiyu]

66. Are you saying feminism is bad?

What exactly are you saying?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

82. Feminism is absolutely 100% necessary.

Equal rights for ALL people is goal we have a responsibility to fight for. Fight for equal pay, job security, reproductive rights, increased opportunities for careers and education, funding women's health research, and against stereotypes. That, to me, is feminism - leveling the playing field.

Depicting men as scared control freaks, as you did above, is bad and is NOT feminism. There is no need for that form of belligerence. It does absolutely nothing to achieve the goal of bringing men and women together on an even plain. Move forward with your debate instead of dwelling in the past. The men of today did not commit the crimes of yesteryear. As a man that DOES fight for women's rights and HAS attended women's rights marches like the one that occurs in Washington DC, it's quite insulting to me that you continue to dredge up these things from the past and say them as if men are still committing these crimes today, or even that all men ever believed in this. It completely denigrates the efforts that men have made towards equality, like Woodrow Wilson making women's suffrage a part of the party platform.

[EFerrari]

92. With respect, Vash, if you're still telling BHG how to think,

what feminism is and is not, and questioning her authority over her own words, the past is not as past as you may believe.:(

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

111. I'm questioning her authority of MY political beliefs.

She has no right to tell anyone they are not a progressive. She is not the arbiter of that.

[EFerrari]

She said:

"If the past was good enough for you, and if the movement that sought to correct injustice and unfairness of that past offends you, you most certainly CANNOT be a progressive."

I see no personal attack here. And there are no gender markers, either. This is a logical argument which you can challenge. Her right to make the argument is just that, her right.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

298. Like I said,

she has no right to tell anyone where they stand politically. She is neither Merriam nor Webster, and thus, does not get to define things. She can make a comment, and I can make a rebuttal, which is what has happened.

[noiretextatique]

400. her point was, if you don't support equity

between the genders, between the races, between classes, etc...then you aren't progressive. supporting the status quo (or regression to something even worse) is in fact NOT progressive. that's not defining anything for anyone, that's simply stating they way shit is.

[Tsiyu]

96. Men who wrote laws prohibiting women

from voting, learning to read and write, and owning property and businesses WERE scared control freaks. Who wrote the laws, Vash? Did women wrote the laws that kept them in a chattel/dependant class? Did women wrote the law that said they couldn't vote? Did women write the law that said a man could beat his wife with a stick like a dog? Who wrote these laws if men didn't?

Little furry creatures? Frogs? MEN wrote those lAWS, And I was REFERRING TO those MEN. If you feel the need to defend those men, say so right here and now.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

115. Where did I defend THOSE men?

I'm defending TODAY'S men. There's a HUGE difference.

[Tsiyu]

128. But I never made a comment about modern men

You made that up, Friend. Unless today's men made those laws? I was talking about THE MEN WHO MADE LAWS IN THE PAST!!!!


I agree there's a huge difference but YOU failed to see it, not I.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

306. Your post flashes back and forth between present and past indiscriminately

One sentence, you talk about why feminism was started, and then you flow directly into the meaning of feminism today. Am I to believe you did not intend for that to happen? I might, but you appear to be too eloquent to let such an important distinction slip by.

[antigone382]

392. This was a post about how anti-female laws and ideas

have hurt me personally, how I wondered as a young girl about the men who made these laws and enforced these ideas, and how important feminism was and is to me as a female and to our society as a whole. I did not intend to write a dissertation on the subject, merely to quickly state my experiences and opinions.

If you see some sinsiter plot to word this in a way that purposefully clouds, I would say that I had faith in those reading the posts to sort out that the men I referred to were those who made such cruel laws. If that is difficult for you to understand that would be a problem with your comprehension and not with any evil intent on my part to confound. I write from the heart. I don't do covert.

on edit: My daughter was logged in so I posted under her account. I will log her off now ( brat!)

[noiretextatique]

499. you are not defending today's men

who include:
pat robertson
gw bush
jerry falwell
john ashcroft
etc, etc, etc...
perhaps you are defending today's enlightened men, but if you are suggesting that ALL of "today's men" are enlightened, even you have to concede that just is not the case.

[VelmaD]

97. Do you know anything about history at all?

Do you know how Wilson had to be forced into supporting women's suffrage? Go rent "Iron Jawed Angels" or maybe pick up a book on the subject.

Read my post above and listen to what some women here are trying to tell you...you may not think you engage in sexist behavior and you may work for women's equality...but not all men have moved out of the past. Many men still engage in the stereotypes and behavior that we are complaining about and by telling women how to think you aren't exactly proving your street cred on this issue.

[Tsiyu]

114. thanks for your support Velma D!

The tone of some of the responses is so predictable yet so sad. Those who are quick to
A) read something into the OP that isn't there and
B) rewrite hisory so that MEN didn't make those archaic laws, (chickens or pigs wrote them!)

tell me that my original points were right on target:

People hate "feminism" so much, they will invent statements that were never made; and history is hidden from a great many people....

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

122. I'm a man - I immediately don't have any "street cred".

How can I truly know the struggle of women? I don't. I wouldn't claim to.

"Many men" is all men now though? Is it that hard to make a qualifying statement to give a nod and acknowledge there are a lot of decent guys out there? Do you not see why this is offensive to me at all?

[VelmaD]

137. Where did I say anything about "all men"?

And would you please explain to me why it's SO important to acknowledge there are some decent men out there before talking about millenia of male privelege and how it is effecting women today? Are your egos so fragile that they MUST be stroked before we can talk about sexism in general?

And we're the ones who get accused of being too sensitive.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

150. Let me ask then

If I accused you of being a sensitive woman, would you not be angry with me?

Sorry, but stereotypes are offensive. Period.

[VelmaD]

156. You failed to answer my question...

which doesn't really surprise me at this point.

Men do not have the history of being accused of being "too sensitive" whenever they complained of their treatment so referring to me as a "sensitive woman" would happen in a completely different context.

Now, answer my question...why do we have to stroke your ego before discussing sexism>

[Orangepeel]

268. actually, they do, in a way

men have a history of being accused of "acting like a girl" when they are sensitive, which (I'll be careful) some men take to be a huge insult. Of course, that is just another reason that feminism is still necessary.

Just as a side note, men suffer, too, from the denigration of the feminine. Not as directly, physically or economically as women, of course. But, they are often forced to deny fundamental and natural parts of themselves in order to act "like a man" because the idea of showing traits that are "like a woman" is anathama, even today.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

289. Very well noted.

And, of course, Velma's sensitivity comment furthers that notion.

[VelmaD]

299. How exactly?

My post had nothing to do with "sensitive" being aimed at men as a derogatory term...something that really got nasty during the feminist movement in the 70s interestingly enough...how many Alan Alda jokes have you heard in your life?

The point of my post was that when men agitate for their rights or complain about being mistreated by the power structure they are revolutionaries and often heros...when women do it we're just being "too sensitive".

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

307. You aimed at ME in a derogatory manner!!!

Your quote: And we're the ones who get accused of being too sensitive.

Explain THAT away!

[valis]

312. Too obvious. Victimism as a weapon. Never works.

[VelmaD]

322. Yes...I think you are being overly-sensitive...

but that is related to you as an individual and the way you are behaving in this thread.

What exactly do I need to explain away? Women have been historically (and are still) accused of being "too sensitive" any time we step outside of our approved role and start agitating for better treatment. People have accused me of being too sensitive based solely on my gender. I'm accusing you of being too sensitive because you brought your ego into this conversation and demanded that we cater to it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

328. Okay, then you misunderstood MY point.

If I said women are too sensitive, you'd be angry at me.

So why can I not be angry when broad strokes are used to paint my gender?

[Lars39]

332. Where in the OP is this stated?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

338. What "OP" are you talking about?

What statement are you talking about?

[Lars39]

341. OP is opening post; buddyhollysghost's opening post of the thread.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

354. Where is what stated?

The broad generalizations? If that's what you're referring to, the whole damn thing is a broad generalization.

[VelmaD]

336. By your logic...

it is now impossible to discuss sexism or racism or homophobia because we cannot discuss the groups who have been primarily responsible for perpetuating them. We cannot talk about sexism, either historically or the contemporary manifestations, without talking about men as a group.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

339. All it takes is one or two words.

Saying "most" does not preclude a discussion. I am not the one with a problem if you are incapable of making such a small concession on behalf of a lot of people that would do their best to do right by you.

[VelmaD]

348. And most of the posts on this thread...

have referred to "some" men or "most" men. That hasn't seemed to stop you from taking the whole thing as an attack on you personally.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

352. My first comment was not in regards to "most of the posts".

It was in regards to ONE post. It was directed at ONE post. And that ONE post just happens to be the entire subject of this thread! So what, exactly, is your point here?

[VelmaD]

360. Go read my post 357...

and it'll tell you my point. I think you seriously mis-read the OP and that post explains why. There are no blanket condemnations of men in the OP - just a statement of how viewing the world around her made one woman feel. Read in context.

[Orangepeel]

373. Yes, that was my interjection

as a side note of one more reason feminism is necessary.

Men and women are both sometimes called "too sensitive" -- the surface reason is different (women are called too sensitive when then stand up for themselves and men when they show caring for others) but the underlying reason is the same -- the feminine (still) tends to be devalued.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

383. Very Good Point

and interesting comparison. I am glad I tuned into this thread today. I've been out of the loop on this subject for so long, I didn't even know what 3rd wave feminism was. (I mean I wasn't familiar with the term). Very inspiring conversation here...Thanks for your input.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

282. How about simple courtesy?

Or do you not like allies?

[VelmaD]

290. Do you require the same courtesy...

from gays or African-Americans before they are allowed to discuss homophobia or racism?

Just curious.

Because I don't. I understand that their issue is more important than my feelings. That it was and is people who look just like me that continue to perpetuate the problems they face daily and that maybe, just maybe, in discussing those problems I should let them and their perspective be the focus rather than my ego needs.

But that's just me.

Part of being a good ally is not forcing yourself into the center of attention in every conversation.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

314. I make it a point not to ally with people who hate me.

I require the same courtesy that everyone requires of me. Blanket statements are offensive. There is no getting around that. If I made a blanket statement about women, I would be tarred and feathered, and rightfully so (hell, I have been in this thread and I didn't even make a blanket statement). Why is there a double standard here? Why do you support and apologize for double standards?

Wrong is wrong. Period. The whole thing could be diffused through the pittance of a couple of words. Is that really so fucking hard to do?

[valis]

321. It's because, when you take away the BS, the bottom line is not

something they can say in PC terms: men are bad; men are the enemy. That's the core conviction, as the profound ambivalence shown in this thread seems to show.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

327. I'll be fully honest - I can understand where that comes from

And I can understand how easy it is to get caught up in that. If you're fighting FOR something, you're usually also fighting AGAINST something.

Understanding it and finding it acceptable are two entirely different things, however. I refuse to be turned into an enemy. I did nothing to deserve that. When you don't aim a gun, you spray bullets sometimes kill your friends. The same is true for rhetoric. It must be finely aimed and it's irresponsible not to do so.

[VelmaD]

329. If you read the OP...

as a blanket condemnation of men and not as one woman's perspective and thoughts on the history of the struggle for women's rights then I don't know what to say to you. Most of the posts on this thread seem to me to have been pretty careful about saying "most men" or "some men"...maybe not all, but most. But that's not good enough for you.

You seem to me awfully eager to ascribe motivation to people you don't know and read whatever you want into every statement. You also seem determined to make this thread about you and your feelings so I think I'm done talking to you for today.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

334. I made ONE comment.

ONE. Then I responded to many whom have attacked me. I think you had best learn what the purpose of a discussion forum is if you think I shouldn't make ONE comment in a public discussion.

And no, it's not good enough for me. Are any misogynists acceptable for you?

[VelmaD]

345. I notice that your "ONE" comment...

has been deleted.

You might want to brush up on your own perception of what message boards are for if you can't handle someone actually daring to disagree with you.

I'm not sure what in the heck your last question was supposed to be about. No misogynists are acceptable to me...and they shouldn't be acceptable to anyone.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

358. As have a great deal of other posts.

So what does that tell you?

[VelmaD]

363. Mostly it tells me...

that it's still considered unacceptable to question the mods since I'm pretty sure that's what all the deleted posts at the top of this thread were about.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

209. Vash, that's a great post and I appreciate it

but you too make a generalization when you say the men of today did not commit the crimes of yesteryear. The crimes are still being committed...less wages for the same work..sexism in the workplace..more women on welfare and assistance than any other group..inadequate child care...etc...did the men of yesteryear do that too?

See how easy it is to speak in generalizations and not even notice when you do it?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

319. You'd have a good point, except...

My comments are in reference to exact crimes listed in the original post. None of your examples were in the original post.

[VelmaD]

357. Get some reading comprehension skills

The only part of the OP that refers to "men" as a group is this:

"Don't you think I spent many years wondering why men were so afraid of women, they would limit them in these ways? Why did men want women to be unable to casts ballots, unable to own their own homes? Unable to inherit the estates of their families? What hatred for women caused men to want to hold them back in these ways? Explain that, and you will understand why feminism is necessary."

When read in context it is clear the original poster was talking about how she felt and what she thought as she was seeing how women were treated and the things they had to endure in the past along with her own experience of discrimination based on her gender. It's a statement on her thought process not a blanket condemnation of men.

[libnnc]

37. You're projecting.

:hi:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

49. Yes. Of course I am in your eyes.

Let me say this - I do not like zealots of any variety. Democrat, Republican, masculine, feminine, straight, gay, and every other issue's zealots. It accomplishes nothing except distancing the people the cause is trying to see eye-to-eye with. If you cannot see the belligerent tone in the first post, then it is not me that has the problem.

[libnnc]

61. Again. You're projecting. You are not a victim.

Your defensive attitude toward women calling society on it's patriarchal bullshit is very telling.

No one is out to get you.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

349. No, I'm defensive because I am a good person.

And I have a lot of pride in that. I will be damned if I let anyone call me otherwise, whether directly or through broad generalizations. If that's "telling" to you, so be it.

[Lars39]

355. Where was the broad brush in the OP?

[Tsiyu]

57. When I discuss people afraid of feminism in the OP

I do not assign a gender. I am speaking to men and women. If you feel singled out as a male by anything in my OP, it is your own sensitivity and not my writing or bias. Please tell me where I singled out males here:

"Some say the word "Feminism" is "inflammatory." They refuse to see how they have been brainwashed into this belief, just as many are brainwashed to believe "liberal" is a pejorative term.

Is what is "feminine" so frightening? If we lift up the female and say, "look at her. Look at how we have held her back; let's work on issues that will put women on an equal playing field with men" how in HELL does that make anyone frightened or alarmed or offended?

I suppose if you know nothing of history, if you have no compassion and if you ENJOYED the fact that women were once left uneducated and unprotected, you can poo poo the relevance of a movement that sought to lift women out of the state of being unable to control their own lives, careers, education and property.

If the past was good enough for you, and if the movement that sought to correct injustice and unfairness of that past offends you, you most certainly CANNOT be a progressive."

YOU CAN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[valis]

203. This is exactly why the term "feminism" is not productive anymore

... pragmatically speaking...

[EFerrari]

19. Gee, I reread the OP and it doesn't say that.

:eyes:

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. I went back to reread it thinking I had missed something too.

Maybe I interpreted it differently becuase I don't have a guilty conscience. ;)

[Tsiyu]

67. Good one!

I didn't want to come right out and say it, but....

[Tsiyu]

48. Wow,

Where in this post did I say any of that?

I was discussing my own perceptions of being female, and how vital the struggle to equalize things was to me and other women.

Fortunately, I know men who have worked harder for feminism than I have. Nowhere did I say or even imply what you have accused.

If reading my words as I relate my own experiences brings out such a strong reaction in you, perhaps some self-examination is in order.

And as for your final question, I was stating my opinion. Female though it may be....

[Misunderestimator]

56. Did someone say that? That men sit around all day?

No. Apparently you're projecting something, because no one made any of the implications against men that you just made.

How did you get there from the OP which was concentrating on the history of the movement and where it originated and why it's important?

What on earth was inflammatory, before this post of yours?

[valis]

244. Did anybody say women are inferior?

No, apparently you are projecting something.

[Misunderestimator]

275. I don't know... Did someone? I didn't say anyone did.

What's the point of the question?

[redqueen]

296. What?

What are you talking about?

[valis]

172. Well said...

[uppityperson]

12. kick.

too many people equate the word "feminism" with stridency and anti-something that I have quit saying I'm a feminist and go with humanist. Trying to be aware of my prejudices and working with them, I am a feminist.

[Ron Green]

16. I hope this thread can continue, and here is my contribution:

I believe that a male, in his development as a person, must eventually arrive at feminism if he is to be complete, just as he must assert his masculinity as he leaves his mother.

Dependence: "I'm a little boy."
Independence; "I'm a man."
Interdependence: "I'm a human being."

Girls, of course, must go through the same process, but because they are child-bearers, being a woman is a much more straightforward process. The final stage of interdependence for a woman is Feminism (in the political sense), in which she accepts the "masculine" traits of power and agency, and the final stage for a man is Feminism (in the personal sense) in which he accepts the traits of care and nurturing as his own.

I don't agree with those who try to put some kind of "balance" into this discussion. The fact is that Feminism is an inevitable step on the road to completeness.

[EFerrari]

22. Exactly. Well said. n/t

[Tsiyu]

51. Interesting observation

We each have male/female "traits" or leanings. It would be great if we just referred to our motivations and interests as "human" and didn't assign gender, but since we can't change that, it's acceptable to me to say that men have feminine qualities and women have male qualities and we should celebrate and enjoy our differences AND our similarities.

Thanks for adding your thoughts!

[Ron Green]

125. Yes, and to the extent we can acquire those "opposite" traits,

we can go beyond our gender-based stereotypes. Because of the traditional male-based system of dominance in the political and economic areas, it plays out as Feminism.

[Pacifist Patriot]

77. Beautifully put.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

85. Thanks, RG..I appreciate the men who really get it speaking out

[stickdog]

437. I agree except for the assumption that women are child-bearers.

That is a rightfully a woman's choice and should not be generalized.

[Ron Green]

458. Right, I should have said that women are THE ONLY child bearers.

My point is that part of being a woman is that she has the potential to bear children, unlike any man who is not necessarily very involved in procreation, save for a brief time at conception.

Biologically speaking, a man has no real impetus to care for another; this must be socialized. A woman, on the other hand, MUST care for the child if it is to survive.

[Zenlitened]

18. Recommended.

:thumbsup:

[Warpy]

23. Nominated for telling it like it is

as the one flame thrower indicates so clearly, cock privilege is very hard for them to let go of.

However, no society that retards half its population can hope to progress in any way, no matter what excuse it uses for doing so.

I don't care if it's ongoing conspiracy or passive tradition. If you want this country to progress to its true potential, it's gotta go.

Some men are going to resent their loss as inheritors of the top of the dungheap. It's normal for them to resent it. Just don't let them start running things again, or progress will grind to a halt.

[Tsiyu]

62. Thanks

but we can't forget that many women are afraid of their own power as well. We need to educate males and females. It seems so many young women are totally unaware of the past....

:hi:

[leftofthedial]

213. cock privilege?

inheritors of the top of the dungheap?

sheesh.

[leftofthedial]

25. I believe in equality

and in live and let live

[valis]

187. Same here. Don't believe in victimism though.

[noiretextatique]

490. then why are you such a victim

of the word "feminism?"

[alarimer]

26. People who have a problem with the term feminism

or the ideas of it (and I have seen some posters in these threads who do) are either misogynists but won't admit it or have been brainwashed by the right (or, more accurately, the right-wing media). Feminism does not equate to male-bashing (though some men deserve to be bashed for their Neaderthal attitudes).

[BlueIris]

42. That's what I say. nt.

[Shallah Kali]

147. simply put Feminism = Human Rights for Women

There is a section of america who try to scare the rest into thinking feminisim means women sneaking around planning to bobbitize every man in the nation. Or they try the bullshit they do with gay rights saying we want 'special rights'. Yeah equal pay and the right to not have laws saying it is fine and dandy for our husbands beat the crap out of us is too much to ask for. I am very lucky to have grown up with the freedom I have. The more I learn of recent as well as ancient history I am amazed that we have come so far so fast from women being the legal property of their fathers and then their husbands to me owning myself. It scares me to see people in power who want to reverse this progress. It scares me to see people supporting them, buying into the fears of bobitizing amazons or into the bullshit that they are just trying to show love and respect for women by saying her sole purpose in life is to marry, keep house, and bear children for her husband. She does not exist for herself. Her worth is only measured at how she serves her husband. I have no problem with women who want to be a homemaker. I object to women being *forced* into it. I also have no problem with men being house husbands. If it works for them more power to 'em :) I am pro-choice not just for reproductive issues but for all other choices in life. I guess that is what feminism comes down to for me - the right to choose what one does with one's life.

[alarimer]

368. I blame Rush Limbaugh

The dittohead turn feminism into "feminazi". I, for one, would not want to live in the 1950s and am gald I grew up after that time. I have had so many more options available to me. The work of feminists has really opened up options for many women. Societies change, they evolve and I guess some segments of society have problems with that. And a lot of younger women, especially, take for granted the gains that have been made. When people talk about "traditional family values" what they really mean is a return to the days when women were second class citizens. It may yet happen. The right attacks abortion rights but they are going after birth control too. And that is only the beginning, I'm afraid. Although I don't think they will actually succeed.

[Shallah Kali]

376. He-Man Women Haters Club has been spewing garbage years before rush

He just made it 'cool' again, at least among a certain segment of society and cowed too many who disagree. Sometimes liberals give in because we don't enjoy fighting like Rush and his ilk do. We need to stand up and call a spade a spade like Dean did pointing out the GOPs demographics makeup.

[Bunny]

33. I am continuously amazed at how some men are so frightened.

They honestly believe that achieving equal rights for women will mean less rights for them. It's somewhat similar to the gay marriage fear - if those gays are allowed to get married, then the benefits that can only be enjoyed by straight couples will decrease. Or something.

Anyway, seeing the fear and defensiveness about it on the part of a few posters here is actually pretty amusing.

[EFerrari]

75. But it's not only men that are frightened or uncomfortable

with feminism, and I would make that distinction re the OP.

Feminism did not seek to reach into the brains of MEN and change them, but to effect broad social change via the values and behavior of PEOPLE.

Social change begins in your own brain.

[Bunny]

88. With regard to the OP, you are correct. My comments were more

directed at some of the men here, who display the fear that I was referring to.

[EFerrari]

109. Ah! n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

134. So let me get this straight

If I say "women are irrational", that doesn't bother you? Or do you get upset only because you are frightened or uncomfortable that it might be true?

[EFerrari]

152. Actually, Vash, check it out: I was trying to read it as you did.

And came up with this reformulation:

"Feminism did not seek to reach into the brains of MEN and change them, but to effect broad social change via the values and behavior of PEOPLE."

That is in part what you were looking for, right?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

286. I apologize - I misunderstood your post originally.

I thought you were saying that only men who are uncomfortable with feminism are the ones who take issue with statements like the original post of this thread (sort of like the argument that homophobes are scared because they might be gay themselves).

Your statement is correct though. I would agree with that. An overall change of opinions and values must be made for progress to occur.

[EFerrari]

359. Good. Glad we got that straight. n/t

[Shallah Kali]

157. yep. Look at the women who make a living lecturing women shouldn't work

That is really quite amusing how there are women who travel giving speaches about how it is best for familes for women to stay at home and have kids. It is like Mary Cheney campainging for her dear ole dad the whole time the RW wishing it could drop her off the nearest cliff.

[EFerrari]

161. Exactly. And that woman who is lecturing young women about

how abortion makes you mentally ill and ruins your health. I got so mad, I've suppressed her name to protect her even in my own mind! lol

[valis]

231. Of course, asking for evidence for this statement would be too much...

Obviously, faith is all that is required... Kind of weak on research skills huh?...

[Bunny]

301. I didn't realize that links were required for personal opinions, but

since you made a point to bring up my research skills, I'll get you some. Just stick around...

[valis]

311. Lotsa personal opinions based on nothing, I'm afraid.

That's why people are so confused.

[Bunny]

320. Oh. Does this mean you aren't going to wait around for my links?

Dang. And I was SO looking forward to posting them.

[Misunderestimator]

40. I was paddled for wearing pants to school when I was 8 years old

Great post, buddyhollysghost! :thumbsup:

[Tsiyu]

102. We've come a long way, Mis!

Or, maybe not ;)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

163. I was the first to wear pants in my Jr. High School

...in 1968. I had them on when I left the house, and my mom asked what I thought I was doing. I told her I would put my skirt on when I got there, but had no intention of doing so. I walked around scared all day, thinking for sure I would get hauled to the princiPAL (remember the spelling rule--the principal is our PAL), but just got dirty looks from teachers... The next day another girl and I both wore them, and by day 3, there were more pants than skirts. I wish I could have a plaque for this! ;)

[Lars39]

170. You certainly do need a plaque for this!

Thank you for posting your story!
People need to realize what it was like back then.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

199. Thank you, Lars

You know, On top of it just seeming ridiculously unjust that we should have to display our bare legs while the boys didn't (shows why the rule was set up in the first place, eh?), in the winter, our legs would freeze walking to school! Other annoyances wearing dresses were sometimes boys would come down the hall and flip your dress up in the back on their way by you. Some even went so far as to put mirrors on the toes of their shoes and you can guess the rest!

[Lars39]

225. Oh, I remember those days well.

And constantly being admonished to not do so-and-so because my underwear might show, and young ladies did not do that! :sigh:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

284. I certainly hope you still crossing your legs at the ankles!

;) I remember one Girl Scout meeting an Avon representative was coming to give us a lecture on "Poise and Personality" ... I thought the "poise" part sounded lame, so I was calling it Poison personality, thinking I was Pretty Funny.

[Lars39]

304. Gosh, that sounds like that was a fun meeting!

:rofl:

[Misunderestimator]

194. That's very cool!

:thumbsup:

By junior high for me (early 70s), everyone was wearing trousers, but before that, it was a punishable offense... amazing that it was such a swift change.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

215. Yes, the moment was right

and I didnt know it until I tried it. I've wondered if the school faculty had addressed the "possibility" of this happening in their meetings, and what should be done about it if/when it did... It was a bizarre feeling walking around flagrantly breaking the rules and having nothing happen! But wow--pretty exhilarating when the final bell rang that day, and I walked away unscathed! I've always wondered how and when the change occurred in other Jr High Schools.

[JohnLocke]

431. You were PADDLED!?

Wow. :wow:

[Tsiyu]

438. Sounds right. That was the punishment in our school as well

I loved snow days, because then we could wear snow pants under our dresses and if we kept a low profile we could keep them on all day.

The thing is, at that time ( mid sixties) the dresses were a pedophile's dream. They barely covered your panties ( which is why our panties back then had ruffles and other adornments on the ass in case you bent over ever so slightly and your tushie showed.) You basically could do nothing in a dress like that except ever so primly stand up or sit down. I hated life wearing those fucking little dresses.

And this is just one facet of "life as a girl" before feminism took hold. Today's young women can't imagine not being able to wear pants if they choose. And they don't have much respect for the woman and men who fought to give them even that small right.

Very, very sad state of affairs.

[patcox2]

41. Its a black and white world, your either ignorant, or a feminist.

Must be nice to be so enlightened, as you walk among the unwashed ignorant masses.

[Ron Green]

53. Actually, there's some truth to your statement,

although I'm guessing you made sarcastically. I believe that, until a person is willing to accept the traits of the opposite sex within him- or herself, he or she has not become fully human. And for both sexes, this happens to mean "feminism," in that women move into political and economic power, and men move into openness and sensitivity.

[Misunderestimator]

58. So, you are saying that only ignorant unwashed people are not feminists?

Interesting angle... I suppose it is true.

[EFerrari]

83. Nope. I haven't washed today and I'm a feminist.

:)

This is a class-based falsity along the lines of "the liberal elite are out of step with Real Americans".

It was working women who did most of the heavy lifting in this movement, not bluestockings.

[Misunderestimator]

99. Yeah, but you're not ignorant.

:)

[EFerrari]

112. How would I know?

lol

[Telly Savalas]

78. Where's the gray on this issue? Please enlighten us.

[Tsiyu]

106. The grey? Can there be compromise?

If say, women could vote but not go to school, would that be grey enough? If they could be drafted, but were paid half what male soldiers were, would that be grey enough?

To me, you either are happy that women are able to vote, go to school and own property, or you are miserable because of it. You either think the movement is essentially a good one, or you think it is essentially radical and negative.

[Ron Green]

144. I think the gray is simply that we can never be fully enlightened, and we

have to forgive ourselves and be forgiven for that. I mean, it's good to be an active heterosexual person, in that experiencing the mysteries of love and lust with that "Other" is one of life's great joys. But to be fully human is to go beyond the differences and fully experience the commonalities.

However, most of us never give up our identities as "a man" or "a woman," and there may be the gray area. Feminism, like Democracy, is an ideal that's never fully realized.

[noiretextatique]

475. we have to grow and progress

in order to move closer to the ideal. it means that we all need to stretch beyond the comfort zone of social conditioning, and the privileges that conditioning affords us.
my father was a sexist jerk when i was younger, and at the time, i didn't have the strength to challenge him...my mother still doesn't. but as i got older and wiser and stronger, i confronted him about his sexist attitudes and told him that his comments did little more than undermine the self-esteem of his female children, warp his male children, and i wasn't going to allow him to do that to my nieces and nephews. the truth really hurt, but to his credit, he listened. i did the same with my mother by telling her she needed to stand up for herself and stop letting him talk down to her. i couldn't have done that in the loving way that i did if i hadn't done some work on forgiving them both, and myself. and the work i did wasn't all because of me...i received and incorporated some feedback from others along the way. sometimes we may need a little push towards enlightenment :D
i recall an exercise i did in a class on forgiveness that required me to embrace ALL my ancestors, including my great, great-grandfather's family who were slave-owners. since i am black, i had always identified with my slave ancestors, but i had never been challenged to embrace the slave-owning ancestors. i'm still working on that exercise, but man...was that an eye-opener. i didn't see anything wrong with despising that part of myself, but i came to understand how that feeling colored how i viewed myself and other people. one of those AHA moments.

[Ron Green]

481. Thanks for writing this.

I believe you have very clearly expressed the fundamental task of life on earth! For you to have embraced not only the slaves but the slavers is a perfect representation, in my view, of what we all have to do, because none of us is completely innocent, or completely guilty.

Just as I feel that feminism is the corrective for ALL gender stereotyping, so is Black Pride the corrective for all racism. This is what many otherwise reasonable people don't get about the civil rights movement and now affirmative action: to ignore the history of slavery is to ignore the fundamental "master-slave" identity that is in all of us, and since our country happened to enslave black people for hundreds of years, this is our corrective.

And since women have been enslaved for thousands of years, our spiritual and emotional growth demands feminism from all of us.

Thanks again for sharing your powerful experience.

[noiretextatique]

489. my pleasure...i agree completely

denial and ignorance only serves the status quo. i firmly believe that if we hope to effect the kind of change we all agree on, in principle: equality for all, we all have to do the spiritual work to make that vision a reality in our own consciousness and in our lives.
america has cognitive dissonance when it comes to race and gender, for the most. i see two diametrically opposed myths operating in the american collective conscience: the notion of the melting pot and the notion of white, male hegemony as a natural state. the melting pot is the belief that anyone has the opportunity to acheive, regardless of circumstances, yet there is also the belief that white men should be on the top of the heap...perhaps because they are inherently more deserving. and coincidentally, the system had been designed to exclude "others" from the competition, so the hegemony belief continued (and continues) to be self-reinforcing.
when it comes to affirmative action, i like to remind people that my generation, the baby boomers, were the first generation of african-americans who lived in the country with the FULL rights of citizenship, and even that's not completely true because the early boomers still lived under jim crow. it's much the same for women because it wasn't that long ago that women were still expected to conform to stereotypical roles.
what i find interesting is the expectaion that after centuries of exclusion, the excluded are expected to magically "catch up" in a scant 40-50 years, AND even the mere potential for "reverse discrimination" is suddenly more probelmatic than, well than anything else.
it's maddening, really. how on earth can we talk about equality, as if it has been acheived, when we know damn well it hasn't? that's where the cultural war 'intellectuals" come in...the racism apologists, the anti-feminists, the "the poor choose to be poor" liars. yeah...i agree with you 100%...it's imperative that "our side" rid ourselves of all of the backlash propaganda because we have to lead by example if we are going to reach the hearts and minds of rest of us.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

79. Can you please point out what was so allegedly binary about

the opening post?

[patcox2]

91. Sure, the division of the world into feminists and the ignorant.

That was pretty simple.

Fuck labels.

Fuck ideological purity tests.

I am not going to adopt a label or ascribe to an orthodoxy for anyone.

And you can't kick me out of the clubhouse.

[Misunderestimator]

105. "And you can't kick me out of the clubhouse."

I think that if your membership to the "clubhouse" is revoked, it will be due to what you yourself post. So have at it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

107. Pat...go back and reread it

She spoke of the collective ignorance in not recognizing the NEED for feminism. It didn't say you are a FEMINIST or you are IGNORANT..you read it that way.

Do you think women have achieved equity in our society when our wages even as professionals are still 20% lower than males?

I am asking because you and I usually don't flame. We talk. And sometimes I see your point and sometimes you see mine.

Your one liner posts are very out of character for you but you are doing it on this subject so I am a bit perplexed as to why this conjures up such ire in you. :shrug:

[patcox2]

133. I believe fully and wholeheartedly in equality.

I believe in positive steps to eradicate the effect of past institutional and liingering societal prejudice based on gender.

But I know for a fact that a feminist would not consider me a feminist, because I really have little time for the scholasticism of institutional, orthodox "Feminism" with a capital F. Yes, I understand cultural forces and the history and the continuing effects, thats why I beleive in more than just a commitment to the value of equality, but also in positive steps to achieve equality. But the scholastic orthodox "feminism" is just, well, useless. I am into policy, achieving results in the world, not scholastic navel-gazing.

And I just hate the way this is being presented, a litmus test and a demand for orthodox purity and a blanket condemnation of anyone who disagrees, whether as ignorant, not a "true" liberal or progressive, or, as one person keeps saying, "fearful," talk about the ad hominem (literally), (oops, I used an inherently sexist latin word, look, come see an example of the deeply embedded patriarchical whatever, look, I am being oppressed) attack. I don't like feminism because I am a fraidy cat. Oooohh, how ironic, an attack on my presumed "manhood."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

148. OK, but I think you are speaking in generalizations

and personalizing the conversation a bit. Don't you think there is some merit to the accusation that many men FEAR feminism?

And what is the "scholasticism of institutional, orthodox "Feminism" with a capital F." Except a polysyllabic name that does not tell me much?

[valis]

248. if there is, then cite a serious study showing so. Not a matter of opinion

If it's true, show us the evidence. A peer-review paper would work. A serious survey would work as well.

[patcox2]

264. Hey, this is my argument. She is right about the fear.

Its just that I'm not one of them, and its wrong to suggest that because some men reject feminism out of fear, then anyone who rejects it must be fearful.

I reject it out of a distaste for its doctrinaire tendencies and for the fact it is a "special interest" area of study. Doesn't mean I disagree with most if not all of what it has to say, its just that to me there should be no need for a "movement" to establish what to me are such obvious truths.

[Zenlitened]

385. "there should be no need for a "movement" to establish... obvious truths"

:rofl:

New to politics, are ya?

[noiretextatique]

166. i think she's spot on

and all the defensiveness in this thread is proof of the silliness some associate with the word, the movement,a nd its accomplishments.
simply put: what's so wrong, in your opinion, with being a feminist?
thanks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

217. Here's the humorous thing. Many people who take issue with FEMINIST as a

word would SCREAM PC!! PC!! PC!!! if you took them to task on words THEY use (Not Patcox..in my experience although he and I have disagreed on issues, he does not tend to do that)

Ironic, no?

[noiretextatique]

294. yes, indeed

also ironic that someone has just declared the need for feminism over, done, kaput. i wonder if people really believe that, and i wonder how any man could claim that with such authority. it's like white americans claiming race/ethnicity isn't a factor in the war on iraq (not to mention domestic issues), as someone did here recently. actually, the person was highly offended by by suggestion that race/ethnicity has always been a factor in american foreign (and domestic) policy.

[patcox2]

235. Want an answer? Really want an answer?

In the early stages of a scientific revolution, the science may break down into opposing camps, evolutionists vs. anti-evolutionists, wave form vs. particle form advocates, etc.

But later, when the issue us settled, there is no copernicanism, there is no creationism (thats a word made up by anti-creationists) there are just physicists and biologists. (and flat earthers and yahoos for those who disagree).

Thats where I see an "ism" like feminism.

To me, its so fucking settled, that it should be past the point there is a need for a "feminism." There should be morality, and there should be sociology. Not feminist sociology or feminist literary theory. And it should be so beyond debate about the status of women in society, both at present and historically, that there is no need for this "special interest" area of concern.

I am a humanist, hows that? To the extent I have the least tendency towards gender stereotyping, I actually think women are superior to men, men have and continue to do the most utterly stupid things with their power in society.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

252. But by your same logic, we have lived through enough history that

there should be no need for humanism for the same reasons, but we still have brothers and sisters using the reasoning capabilities of anything but a HUMAN ;-)

[patcox2]

256. Nah, thats not true, there is no dialectic about humanism.

Humanism is the synthesis.

There should be no need for feminism because feminism is reactionary, a reaction against male dominance. If there were no struggle between the feminist viewpoint and the patriarchal viewpoint, then there would only be humanism left.

Fuck it, okay, I am a feminist, are you all happy?

[EFerrari]

280. Oh boy. "Humanism" was the platform of anti-feminists for

most of its history. Humanism was a misnomer, just as "all men are created equal" meant not all men, but all landowning white men.

/t

[patcox2]

302. I wasn't using it in the historical sense. I should have said sociology.

I mean, after all, what is feminism? A political movement? A civil rights movement? A special field within sociology? A field within literary criticism (thats where I studied it, I found it a narrow little gehtto)? A field within ethics, or history?

If it were purely political, I would find it offensive. I would also find "whitism," "blackism," and Masculinism offensive, as political movements.

Most of my comments about how I wish feminism were not necessary were directed to academic feminist studies. To me it is so well settled an aspect of ethics and human rights that no reasonable person could disagree, thats why I think there is no need for an "ism" in those fields. Likewise with sociology. In academia, I have a distaste for it because it should be an inherent part of every discipline rather than its own cross-disciplinary study.

I do, however, find it valid as a civil rights movement, and in that context I support it fully.

I don't know if that makes me a feminist or not. Hope so, don't want to go through life ignorant and scared.

[EFerrari]

310. That's the $64,000 dollar question, isn't it?

"I mean, after all, what is feminism? A political movement? A civil rights movement? A special field within sociology? A field within literary criticism (thats where I studied it, I found it a narrow little gehtto)? A field within ethics, or history?"

One could raise the same questions about humanism, and the question has been raised.

I also studied feminism within the context of lit crit, and found it vastly expansive. An example: Back in the day, I was in an Emily Dickinson seminar. I had a wonder prof and he led us into all these great discussions about how unique her work was.

The same semester, the first edition of the women's Norty came out. It listed literally hundreds of intertextualities for Dickinson's work, and showed very plainly how she was in fact in dialogue with other poets, most notably other WOMEN poets. What, no unicorn?

It was a real eye opener for us all. Including our prof who went out and got a copy and truly investigated it the rest of the semester.

(Thanks, Mitch!)

On edit: Sorry, lost track of my point: Context.

[patcox2]

317. You'd love my paper on the feminist aspects of Byrons Don Juan.

His sympathy for Gulbayez, his appreciation for the situation of all the female characters. Hell, the fact that the whole poem makes plain that Don Juan was completely powerless in his relationships.

[EFerrari]

326. I probably would. I was writing about "Troilus and Cressida"

and noticing that the flat straight relationships were all a send up of the three dimensional gay ones.

lol

I miss that. :)

[Misunderestimator]

253. So.... you think that the issue of feminism is "settled?"

You compare it to anti-evolutionists vs evolutionists (wrong vs right)? I'm really not getting that analogy at all.

Yes, it SHOULD be so beyond debate that we don't require the term. There we agree.

[patcox2]

259. Its settled amongst the sane and evolved humans.

Only troglodytes would disagree.

I see now that is why there is a "feminism," because of the resistance against feminism.

So I guess I am a feminist, because in that light, thjere is still a struggle and a need for an "ism," as opposed to just the truth.

[Misunderestimator]

267. But how many sane and evolved humans are there?

You are apparently one of them. :) Nice post... thanks.

[valis]

276. There is not enough evidence in history to conclude

that women in power would do any better than men in power... The reason is that there were very few women in power. The fact that men caused tons of wars does not imply wome would not... I doubt, actually, judging by the way office politics among women works in many cases...

[Misunderestimator]

344. "Office politics among women?"

:wtf:

Everything you say is an insult.

(Oh, and it's me, Misunderestimator, in case you aren't paying attention to who is responding to you.... I have only one identity here, how about you?)

[lukasahero]

356. ..

:think:

[Misunderestimator]

365. I guess I was just talking to the dirt...

:bounce:

[MissB]

404. Well, thank goodness the mods

figured out you needed some pizza.

Ass.

[Hello_Kitty]

432. And therefore women should be kept out of power?

What are you suggesting? That unless it could be proven that a majority of women in power would result in a substantial improvement that the status quo should be maintained?

I don't believe that women are inherently more moral or ethical than men. But I do believe that women must ascend to positions of power and authority in the world before there is any hope of ending the injustices and devastation that patriarchy has wrought. Patriarchy is a rigid, hierarchal system that keeps people trapped in prescribed roles and prevents them from questioning why things are the way they are. It prevents change.

And patriarchy squanders the value and talents of half the world's population. What a waste. And we should let it continue because, apparently, some women act badly in the office? I don't think so.

[stickdog]

439. How about among bonobos and other primates?

The evidence is in, dude. No war without male warriors.

[noiretextatique]

279. so, you have decided the issue is settled

what if some people don't agree with you? pay equity might settle the issue for me, however i still think many women (and men) can benefit from good old-fashoioned, educational consciousness raising. i still see a big need for feminism.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patcox2]

222. Non-feminist = childish, ignorant, scared, what else?

I love the tone of this argument. Good points you make there. You not only have to be a feminist to be a liberal, you have to be a feminist to be brave, you have to be a feminist to be grown up, and you have to be a feminist to be informed. It seems that all that is good is embodied in feminism, and any refusal to bow to the orthodoxy is actually a rejection of all that is good.


I had no idea I was turning my back on goodness itself when I refuse to adorn myself with a label or accept an ideological orthodoxy.

[valis]

257. Don't forget that you may also be a terrorist if you are not feminist.

:hi:

[lukasahero]

278. Actually, I believe feminists WERE blamed for "causing" 9/11

You might want to be mindful about who really gets blamed for things in our society today. Orwellian speech - it's what for dinner.

[valis]

318. News to me. Link? On day 2, it was clear who had done it. So?...

[lukasahero]

330. Falwell and Robertson - links if you want them

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/14/Falwell.apology/

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'"

This was and continues to be a huge story for the left in it's fight against the religious right. You never heard of it?

[bloom]

347. Here is the research you requested:

After the September 11, 2001 terrorist attack, (Jerry Falwell) (along with fellow televangelist Pat Robertson) made comments interpreted as blaming various groups for the attack. The two were widely condemned for having made these comments. Falwell said:

And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way—all of them who have tried to secularize America—I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."


Robertson then responded:

Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.


In 2001, Mad magazine named Falwell the "Dumbest person of 2001" for blaming the 9/11 attacks on feminists, gays, and lesbians.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Falwell

[noiretextatique]

337. feminism defined

1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.

:shrug: if the shoe fits....

[newportdadde]

43. Deja-vu.

Well I was wrong on the other thread it only got to 77 post before the clank.

I think this one will get to 100 though.

:popcorn:

[sendero]

44. The only problem I see..

.... is in how you define "feminism".

If it mean equal opportunities, rights and respect for women - count me in.

But there are other things it means and for those things you can count me out. I'm not interested in an acrimonious debate on the subject, nobody is going to change anyone's mind, and nobody is going to convince me I haven't seen the things I've seen in my 50 years on this planet.

In any event, I'm glad that there is a new forum on DU and I hope it goes well. I'll stay out, because really, I have nothing to contribute that anyone wants to hear. :)

[SheepyMcSheepster]

45. i would consider myself a feminist, but i don't like the word

i tried to post this in the other thread, but it got locked.

feminism:
1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.

my problem is that it takes an idea/movement/belief and makes it more specific via it's etymology. as i understand it feminism = equal rights for everyone. if the issue was just presented as "gender equality" verses "feminism" it wouldn't allow for the negative connotations that some draw from it. Rush Limbaugh wouldn't be able to make disparaging remarks about "gender equalists", it would sound moronic.

the best way i can describe it like this. say i am a "racial equalist" i wouldn't describe myself as an "african-americanist" or a "caucasianist" or a "hispanicist", the term may be based on good intentions but it excludes through its specificity.

imo, if we are talking about "gender equality" then there is no need to specify that by using "feminism". people who are not female feel excluded and threatened by it because they are not included in the construed meaning.

and let's be clear i am not saying what feminism is or isn't, i am trying to address how the word is perceived and how those perceptions effect the goals of feminism.

i would consider my self a feminist, but i don't feel comfortable with the terminology, i don't feel it is appropriate to play favorites in the gender equality game and i feel that using the word feminist partially defeats the purpose of gender equality. if we are speaking of true gender equality, we should be using non-gender specific words imo.

i of course am a male and my intentions are not to insight flame, but to offer and explanation as to why the topic generates the dialog that it does.

[bloom]

372. I understand

that people grow up and think that "I" didn't contribute to slavery or "I" didn't create this system with such odd gender inequalities - so "I" won't take responsibility, etc.

And people in the dominating group don't like being told that they have privilege.


For them there may not seem to be a fight to fight. But I have to come to realize - partly through the efforts of Bush & CO. - that this fight will always be with us. Because people like this have a pulpit and a radio show and funding ->


"For men, we embrace a masculine spirituality. We believe God created men to be men without apology. We believe that Biblical masculinity is necessary for the church to be the overcoming organism God intends for it to be. Therefore we avoid the feminization of men and the spiritual emasculation of God’s rowdy warriors that usually accompanies most evangelical churches.

Doug and his Church are overseen by local, national and international leaders within the greater body of Christ."

Posted @ http://blogs.salon.com/0003494/2004/10/30.html


----

And so does Dobson, and Falwell, and Robertson. The "Strict Father Model" people are winning. And they are very against the Feminists with a capital "F".

Some Concerned Woman for America or something said that Feminists want there to be a wedge between the genders. If anything - their patriarchal nonsense is what drives a wedge between men and women. The inequality and the attempt to stop any progress.

[glitch]

50. kick for excellence! nt

:kick:

[undergroundpanther]

52. Kick...

I think Bullies are the problem,
There are male bullies and female bullies.NONE are exempted from responsibility for being the pig assholes they are in my mind.
Powerseekers control freaks dominators.Alpha males Alpha females abusing power ,persuation and position.They ALL SUCK.


For one group in society to have this air of privelege all the others must believe they are less worthy.
You Cannot have a dungheap made out of a culture,for bullies to sit on top of without a bottom holding the top up with thier beliefs of unworthiness and obedience to the top pig..

Bullies are the problem.Bullies need hierarchies. Bullies are people who think they are entitled,priveleged deserve more than everyone else,They are rampant in our culture. ..


The other problem is people who believe these bullies lies and give them the permission to feel entitled,give them more priveleges,and give these bullies more than they deserve.They have to learn freedom is in saying NO to a bullies demands.

[Inland]

55. I'm not happy with the blanket statement about "men"

followed by a description of beliefs that haven't been particularly popular among men for thirty years, and laws that haven't been in place for over a hundred years disenfranching women from owning property etc.

It makes me think you meant me, and I'm not sure why you would. Is it to make me adopt the term "feminism" as a description of myself or be consigned to the fires of the 1800s? I hesitate with "feminist" only because I am not sure what it means beyond equality and ridding the society of harmful stereotyping and enforced gender roles. On edit: and reproductive rights, since the anti-abortion ideology is revealing itself to have no principle besides control of women.

[Zenlitened]

64. Which one was the blanket statement about men?

:shrug:

[Inland]

81. Did I misread it?

Why, did you think women were being addressed? That wasn't my impression. I can't find anything in there that suggests that one can find women who are regressive in these matters.

"Don't you think I spent many years wondering why men were so afraid of women, they would limit them in these ways? Why did men want women to be unable to casts ballots, unable to own their own homes? Unable to inherit the estates of their families? What hatred for women caused men to want to hold them back in these ways? Explain that, and you will understand why feminism is necessary."

"is what is "feminine" so frightening?"


But as I said, part of it is that I don't know what feminism means to the poster. If it means equal rights and that other good stuff, I like that. I'm no fan of the 1800s or even the 1960s in that regard.

[Tsiyu]

87. Thanks, I was about to ask

If this person was referring to the pathetic "history" I gave, i would have to ask, who made the laws prohibiting women from voting, owning property, getting an education? Is there some gender i don't know about?

Did fairies or aliens land on earth and make these laws? No, I think men made those laws, and I think if we went back and researched the laws, you would find that I made no "blanket statement," I merely stated fact.

Of course there were enlightened men back then as well, so this in no way bashes "all" men, simply the men making laws at that time. Or should I rewrite history to make some men feel better about themselves? Should I pretend elephants or monkeys made those laws?

[Inland]

95. Well, you didn't ask me.

So I'll turn it around: Why can't you define the term?

What is it about not "being feminist" that makes me want a return to those bad old days?

If being feminist means merely I'm for this century's laws on equal rights, repro rights, and no harmful stereotyping, I'm all aboard.

But if it means something else, why won't you tell me what it is? Why are you making me feel I have to sign on or be a bad person?

[Tsiyu]

160. If you think feminism is unnecessary and wrong

and you fail to see the great progress brave feminists have made (men and women) and you choose to view it only as some radical cult movement that only concerns itself with bashing men, then you have bought into the lies, you fail to understand history and you really have no clue how women achieved their status today.

Are there not men on DU who benefit because their wives can work, drive cars, make decisions for the children? Do men not benefit when women have the same rights as men?

Currently, we have many women - wives and mothers and daughters - serving in Iraq. Can you imagine how awful it would be for the men over there if they were kept home because of gender? The war sucks, but I'll guarantee it would suck worse if women couldn't serve.

Feminism made it possible for women to drive, to work, to serve their country. You can't change that. You can't divorce feminism from the progress it helped drive. Or do you think that those little fairies came down and gave us the right to work, vote, fight for our nation?

[Inland]

397. Okay, I'm on board. We mean the same thing, more or less

Or close enough. I'm on board after all.

See, the OP could be read two ways:

1) If you believe in women's right to (all the things you listed in the preceding post), you are a feminist.

But I also thought it could be read as:

2) there's this radical cult movement called feminism and if you don't belong, you are as bad as the people who treated women as chattel.

Your inclusion of men as feminists, your disavowal of the radical cult movement, and your explicit listing of what you meant practically shows that I am in agreement and that I am grateful for feminism and feminists for the accomplishments you list, which are accomplishments for women AND for society as a whole, and which I would have to say came from feminists (going back to the suffragettes and whatever the same ideology was before that) who provided the ideological and ethical arguments, and the practical proof of themselves as equals to the very men who were making decisions about who does or does not have rights.

I agree that the world can't afford the luxury of doing without the talents of half the population in those areas you list--plus the discrimination was unfair if not evil at its core.

And before you admonish me for allowing a second reading of your OP, let me say--I had several responses to MY posts that had read it that way. So there you are.

Feminism, right on. I'm on board.

[undergroundpanther]

65. Than

Sir, instead of feeling insecure and trying to exonerate yourself as if you were not raised to be male, Instead why not Go tell the ignorant men you see being ignorant to quit bashing and objectifying women. It's Asshole men making guys like you feel guilty for what THEY do..Don't STAND BY.when you see men acting like assholes to women to hold onto their"dick privileges" tell them they are the problem...When the male pigs you see at the bar,the club wherever and when they talk like shit about women CALL THEM ON IT. Than less men will be a problem for women and you will be helping the cause for equality.A better culture,it begins with each of us, fighting for each others well being.Not just one type of persons well being.Men have had privilege and the price one pays for abusing power isn't always"nice" to feel..

[Inland]

72. Well, okay...

although I'm not sure why feeling that I am being unfairly stereotyped makes me "insecure"

Or why it's up to me to convert all men or just put up with being unfairly stereotyped

I don't go to bars or clubs, so it's tough for me to work on that particular aspect of culture, and there too illustrates how unfair it is to simply direct to "men"

Nor do I think that I have to pay a price of being stereotyuped as a believer in women as property for something someone else does just because we share a gender

And I'm still not sure what any of that has to do with my having to adopt a term of uncertain meaning.

[noiretextatique]

118. i don't think it's about you, really

not all men embrace patriarchy, just as some women do. but just like jim crow benefitted even those whites who were opposed to slavery and segregation, so do men benefit from laws, traditions, beliefs, and so on, that support the notion of male supremancy.
fools like ann coulter, who call for the disenfranchisement of women, are just the same as clarence thomas, imho, who claims to be against affirmative action even though he benefitted from it.
on the other hand, white people are involved in the civil rights movements, and certainly some men supported suffrage and other women's civil rights issues.

[Inland]

142. I don't WANT it to be about me

since I don't think I do anything wrong, or if I did, I'd want it pointed out--with something other than the fact that I belong to the race or sex as the wrongdoer.

[noiretextatique]

153. i don't think that was the intent of the original post

much like what dean said about the republican party, you can't really get upset about certain realities, like who the majority of high rollers in government and industry are. if they look like you, of course that's no fault of yours.
it doesn't change the reality though.

[undergroundpanther]

130. equality

although I'm not sure why feeling that I am being unfairly stereotyped makes me "insecure"

Ok Men have hurt women..and alot of men stand by while it occurs.Alot of men don't see the problem with places like Hooters or porn.Do you understand? What if you were seen as an obbject to be used? Cut up into paarts to be salivated over like a rump roast or thigh?
Why don't you tell your fellow men how it feels for women while they salivate over boobs? Men occupy a Class in this culture that is for the most part inaccesable to women.Your words as a man carry more weight,because of the inequality in this culture.It's good you feel this way.It motivates change

Would you stand by if a whiter racist made a crude joke about blacks?
Sure I bet you'd stand up today, because it's SAFE to do it.. so it carries very little social risk to stand up against race now.
But would you have spoken up for a black persons rights before the civil rights era and risked being scapegoated to do the right thing??
Than why don't more men *like you* stand up against men who subjugate women?
Because of the fear of losing privelege.
And why do you think you deserve to be exempted?
You might want to exempt yourself from it because You think you don't do that bad stuff..But how many men do you know DO objectify women? When could you have stood up?


Or why it's up to me to convert all men or just put up with being unfairly stereotyped

WEll why should I put up with men syterotyping me it happens ALL THE TIME down here.And why should I accept this"place" and quit being"uppity"

I don't go to bars or clubs, so it's tough for me to work on that particular aspect of culture, and there too illustrates how unfair it is to simply direct to "men"

Well WE women get directed by men all the time.. This is what it feels like to be us.When we hear gold digging bitch,whore ect.She asked for it(rape)..Like a man can't control himself..

losing privelege it can feel unpleasant,for one who expects to be excepted because he didn't do it personally.But whether or not you did bad to women is a moot point you have male privelege by being born male in this culture.It's like being born white..

Nor do I think that I have to pay a price of being stereotyuped as a believer in women as property for something someone else does just because we share a gender

We don't share genders.We don't share priveleges either.
We will only be equal when men and women realize we are all people first.And equality begins with each of us tackling the issues of equality from where we are at.Men can so easily tell themselves lies if it's just women clamoring for rights from below.That is part of the function of the seperation of gender and class does psychologically.

And I'm still not sure what any of that has to do with my having to adopt a term of uncertain

Term? What term?

I am speaking about equality for all human beings.
Equal respect,
Equal pay,
Equal status,
Equal power,
Equal freedoms,of body, mind and voice.
Equality in ALL areas of life.

[mongo]

456. Why is it

that when one woman has a problem with what another woman does with HER life, she is protecting her?

OK Men have hurt women..and alot of men stand by while it occurs.Alot of men don't see the problem with places like Hooters or porn.Do you understand? What if you were seen as an object to be used? Cut up into paarts to be salivated over like a rump roast or thigh?

Women work at Hooters or porn of their own free will. Hooters waitresses make more than a hell of a lot of other waitresses - they get good tips. It they don't have a problem with bouncing their breasts at the customers - why should you?

Do you have the right to tell another woman what she should be doing with her life?

Sexuality is a part of all of us. There are situations where men are presented as sexual objects as well - soap operas, romance novels, porn, etc. The point is that all of these situations which you find to objectify women have the purpose of sexual arousal. It is hard to not be presented as a sexual being (or "object" if you prefer), when the whole point is to cause sexual arousal.

It is kinda like complaining when a man is presented as an idiot in a comedy. The point is the characters are supposed to be funny.

People who go into porn or stripping or working at Hooters do so because they do not mind the attention. If you have ever been in a strip club, the women are the ones in power, separating men from their money at an astonishing rate.

[undergroundpanther]

480. porn

that when one woman has a problem with what another woman does with HER life, she is protecting her?

OK Men have hurt women..and alot of men stand by while it occurs.Alot of men don't see the problem with places like Hooters or porn.Do you understand? What if you were seen as an object to be used? Cut up into paarts to be salivated over like a rump roast or thigh?

Women work at Hooters or porn of their own free will. Hooters waitresses make more than a hell of a lot of other waitresses - they get good tips. It they don't have a problem with bouncing their breasts at the customers - why should you?

I don't care about boobs
However I do care about women getting equal pay.And they shouldn't have to do porn to get it,
How would you feel about guys in speedos in restaurants? waving thier dicks for a chance at some decent wages..Imagine this scenario if men earned less money across the board at most other jobs than women got and if you add the twist if men got saddled with kids in custody cases. You can see women have a desperation incentive to get money don't you??

Do you have the right to tell another woman what she should be doing with her life?

No.But likewise women shouldn't have to get paid less than men for doing equal work.

Sexuality is a part of all of us. There are situations where men are presented as sexual objects as well - soap operas, romance novels, porn, etc.

And it's disgusting to turn a human being into an object.

The point is that all of these situations which you find to objectify women have the purpose of sexual arousal. It is hard to not be presented as a sexual being (or "object" if you prefer), when the whole point is to cause sexual arousal.

And why is that? Why arent more men lapdancing like dogs to ugly selfish oblivious people due to an adduiction or abuse history? Could it be they get more money doing other jobs and don't take care of babies they help make because they are MEN?

It is kinda like complaining when a man is presented as an idiot in a comedy. The point is the characters are supposed to be funny.

Well women get to be bimbos and ornaments what are you whining about.

People who go into porn or stripping or working at Hooters do so because they do not mind the attention.

Not always.Porn is an INDUSTRY it manufactures objects to be used.If what you said was true across the board we wouldn't have a human sex slave trafficking problem would we?And no addicts or abused kids would be targeted by porn recruiters in seedy areas of town to be pornstars.. Get real.

If you have ever been in a strip club, the women are the ones in power, separating men from their money at an astonishing rate

And that is not so much of a place of power as much as you pretend once the establishment or pimp or porn promoter takes it's cut.
As for power how "empowering" is it really to have wave your twat for enough money to not live in a shit neighbotrhood or send a child to school? Ever look at the girls in money shots as human beings, thier faces are not of pleasure..it's acually closer to an expression of disgust,and if porn is all so much pleasure for women why do the porn actors have to act like they like it? Just listen to the photographer coachh them.. Tell me why do whores have to say yes yes to the 40th john doing the same thing when they just want to go home and sleep?

You are really that oblivious to this.. there is no defense for this culturally sanctioned exploitation that goes on.No matter how good it feels to you to stay in denial it is exploitation.Some women are exibitionists to THEM I say fine let them go for it show it off whatever..

..but there are many more women who are not exibitionists or craving attention as an object who are in desperate straights or in confused abused lives who do porn for other reasons like paying rent,feeding a drug habit or because they are forced to..

[beam me up scottie]

488. UndergroundPanther,

:loveya:

[Tsiyu]

146. if you wrote those laws, you are a piece of shit, otherwise...

My "wondering" about men was in reference to THOSE WHO WROTE THOSE LAWS. I should have made that clearer. I was raised by a father who told me I could be anything I wanted to be, so i did not grow up with misogyny as a household attitude. But when i began to learn about the history of women and the laws affecting them, I wondered why THOSE MEN WHO WROTE THOSE LAWS were so afraid of women.

Now, some want to pick apart any female's post on feminism. This is so goddamned sad to me, but I've known that nit-picking-to-avoid-the-real-issue shit ALL MY LIFE.

If you identify with the men who made those laws, then yes, i want you to feel guilty. if you think those laws were wrong, then my words don't apply to you, even though you are also a man.

[Inland]

398. I don't identify, and I don't want anyone else to identify me with them

I'd like to keep my distance from a lot of what our predecessors did, and I now understand that you weren't trying to move me any closer than I want to be! So its cool.

[EFerrari]

101. See my #75. There isn't a blanket statement about men exactly,

it seemed to me more like a misstatement about -- as you point out -- men being regressive instead of PEOPLE being regressive.

It's more of an incomplete statement, and I bet if you asked BHG, she'd agree.

[PittLib]

68. It is just this mentality that enables people to say ...

"get over the abortion issue". The same that places my potential ability to carry a child above my rights an equal human being. And the same that allows people to refer to women's issues as "special interest". This mentality is pervasive on both sides ... but I find it more insulting when so-called progressives are compromising my rights as well their supposed ideals.

[Cleita]

69. I grew up mostly in the conditions you describe.

Young women don't realize that even fifty years ago, the things they take for granted weren't there. You speak for all of us very well.

I think feminism and liberalism have been hijacked by the moronic right to make them sound like dirty words. When we on the left let them do this then shame on us.

From a proud feminist, tree hugging liberal.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

340. I'm middle-aged, and I remember seeing want ads in the paper:

Help Wanted: Women (all the secretarial, nursing, and retail sales jobs)
Help Wanted: Men (all the other jobs except for teaching)
Help Wanted: Men and Women (jobs for caretaker couples for apartments)
Teachers Wanted

I remember when a married woman couldn't get credit in her own name, even if she was employed.

I remember when my college went through financial troubles and "solved" the problem by firing or cutting back on the positions of all the married women. (They thought they were being so righteous because they didn't fire any single women.)

I remember the pressure from my mother and grandmother to date a guy who stalked me all through senior year in college. "He's a chemistry major. That means he'll get a good job somewhere." "But I don't love him. I don't even like him." "Who cares? He won't be home most of the day anyway. A lot of the girls in your class are engaged already, and you don't even have a steady boyfriend. Can't you just go out with him? I'm sure he has some good qualities. Do you want to have to work all your life?"

If you've never had that kind of conversation with a parent, consider yourself a beneficiary of feminism.

You can also thank a feminist if you ever participated in women's sports. That was never my thing, but in my high school, there were no girls' teams. There was cheerleading for the elites, and there was Pep Club, which meant you got to sit together at games and wave pompoms.

I don't recall any career days at college, but every year, there was a bridal show on campus.

I recall seeing a What's My Line show in which a pretty young woman stumped the panel--they were astounded to find out that she was (gasp!) a lawyer.

I remember the film The Thrill of It All, with Doris Day and James Garner, in which a woman's budding career doing commercials becomes a problem for the family, which is used to her slave-like devotion. The "solution"? Pregnancy, of course, which not only derails her career but also makes her see the "error" of her ways.

I remember when my grandfather set up his pension so that it would end five years after his death. He was insanely jealous, and he imagined that my grandmother would remarry and "let some other man have his money." So she spent the next 38 years living on little more than the Social Security minimum (she had worked retail for about ten years). Under current laws, my grandfather would not have been able to set up his pension like that without my grandmother's consent, thanks to the feminists.

Younger women (and men) need to know about this very recent history.

[Cleita]

367. Great post Lydia and sooo true.

eom

[Tsiyu]

418. And I so appreciate you and all the other women

who are adding your thoughts and experiences to this thread. Many have forgotten or never learned the most recent history, it seems.

I wanted to put a human face on the debate, to get women ( and men) to open up about the sexism they've experienced so that the unenlightened can understand that feminism was not just some fad or flash in the pan ideology. The movement has partially helped correct many of the past wrongs.

I can't get this whole huge thread to come up on my dialup, but I so thank all of you who are speaking up about what gender inequality means to you personally. This is the only way we might teach since many refuse to even study this movement because of its name.

[sinkingfeeling]

419. We must be close in age as my experiences are similar.

I remember being teased for being a 'brain' in high school and when only one or two 'girls' went on to college.

I remember we played 'girls' basketball' on half the court in gym class.

I remember being told that there were only 3 slots open to vet school for females since they'd just 'waste' the space and get married anyway.

I remember my parents concern that all my high school friends were already married a year out of school.

I remember giving up my full scholarship so I could support my student husband and keep him out of the draft.

I remember being fired when I became pregnant with my son since they didn't want the customers to see me in 'that condition'. (And I was the only wage earner...husband still in college to avoid the Viet Nam draft).

I remember when I had to put my only credit at the local department store in my husband's name after having had the account for 3 years prior.

I remember not being rented an apartment because I was a single woman (lord, she'll be setting up as a 'whore').

I remember having to go to a dozen lenders and then having to have my Father co-sign my first mortgage after my divorce.

I remember being hired into a position that no other woman had held since WW II and being given a salary 20% less than the guy hired the same day because I didn't have a family to support (guess my son didn't count).

I remember there were no women's rest rooms at my corporation's education center and I had to walk down 3 floors to go.

I remember that I arrived at training centers and finding a man as my room mate since the system didn't know to identify the sex of the student to the hotel.

I remember how whatever I said in a meeting was disregarded by the others (all males) in it.

I remember when a client called my manager and complained that my company didn't respect them because they had assigned me to their account.

These events were all real in the good ole USA.

[EFerrari]

429. I remember when the cop that shined the flashlight into the car

wouldn't let me produce my license because I was a woman. He only would speak to my husband.

No real team sports for girls but for one good soul of a PE teacher in junior high who apparently stayed every Tuesday and let us play games on her own time.

No high school counselor asking me about college, instead the principle driving me home to take care of my mom when she was ill because I was a girl. Took care of her from ages 11-17 with the school system's blessing.

Hearing my husband being asked, when we were in student housing, what HIS field was and listening to him stammer a bit, then respond that I was the student with a "field". Knowing that he hated that.

Even in the last ten years, when my husband went through a period of disability, being disrespected by officialdom as I wrestled to get him care because he obviously couldn't defend or protect me. Officialdom got a big fat surprise when this strategy didn't work. :evilgrin:

Thanks, everyone. I needed every single one of ya.

[Madrone]

70. Beautiful post.

Love ya!

[Tsiyu]

182. There's my buddy!

I thought his post would drop like a rock. Little did I know!!!!!

Love you, too, my fellow feminist! :loveya:

[Madrone]

193. Nope - this is one of those "hot topics" -

Like circumcision, the use of the word BITCH, whether or not christians are mentally diseased, or vegetarianism.

It'll be at the top for awhile. ;)

Personally, I think ALL your posts RULE - you are THE buddyhollysghost. I'm not worthy!

[EFerrari]

204. Vegetarianism?!

:eyes:

[Madrone]

207. And so it begins....

:hide:

[EFerrari]

229. LOL! The Pope, Jeff Gannon, Immigration, Tofu!

:rofl:

[ananda]

73. I am a woman who is..

.. feminist and liberal, loud and proud!

Sue

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

74. Seeing into the future, this thread will be locked

because even a REASONABLE post on the merits of feminism is turned into a war.

Isn't that a shame?

[Ripley]

80. We must protect the men! Think about the men!

Didn't you know that Feminist Group is filled with ways to dominate men and take over the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mwhooooohahahahahahahahahahahah!!!

:sarcasm: as if needed :eyes: as if it weren't obvious

[Bunny]

104. It's the "Clubhouse" now, didn't you hear?

Even finally getting a group of our own is too much for some to bear!

[libnnc]

110. We need a secret hand shake.

:bounce:

[Ripley]

117. And code words.

Like "Spumany" and "limpy." :)

[Ripley]

113. Is that disruptor still over there?

I saw his flaming rant and had to leave the room.

But you know Annie Sprinkle says everything is okay, so I think I'll change my mind and unbecome a Feminist. :nuke:

[EFerrari]

84. Darn, and I was going to post "The Yellow Wallpaper", too!

:)

[noiretextatique]

94. gender and race discussions here are too often personalized

some people take discussion of political/cutlural/social dynamics as personal criticism, as we see in this thread.

[valis]

208. It should be locked, out of fairness. It's become a zoo.

It just reflects the level of irrationality surrounding this.

[Zenlitened]

212. It offends your delicate sensibilities, huh?

What a terrible, terrible shame. :cry:

You misunderstand, you fail to think beyond your own misperceptions... therefore the other posters are irrational. Welcome to Projection-Land! :eyes:

[valis]

228. That is from "Freud for dummies". Not the best way to learn this stuff.

[Zenlitened]

238. Insert random words in subject line. Click "Post message."

:rofl:

[valis]

254. if that's your way of posting please go ahead. I think before I post.

[Zenlitened]

265. Um, and where is the evidence of this "thinking" you mention?

:shrug:

[valis]

313. Right here. And there. Pretty obvious.

[Misunderestimator]

353. Where? Have your sources been peer-reviewed?

[Zenlitened]

387. LOL!

:yourock:

I had to read further up the thread -- er, I mean, research the available data -- to get that one. :D

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

214. So there's something fair about a bunch of people turning an excellent

post into a zoo?

If that is so, then one has simply PROVED the need for a forum to specifically address these issues where one cannot show up and get a completely REASONABLE post locked out of FAIRNESS by fucking WILLFULLY AND INTENTIONALLY turning it into a zoo.

[EFerrari]

216. Have you read the thread? n/t

[Madrone]

219. Out of fairness, Valis -

Your responses have been contributing to the "irrationality" in this discussion.

I can see where you're coming from in "general" - but within the context of what BHG is saying you're far from the mark. You're knee-jerking - and I'm not sure why.

[valis]

241. The house was already a zoo when I came in... So, don't blame me...

[Madrone]

249. Honestly,

I'm not blaming you - not at all. Nor am I attacking you, or suggesting you are solely responsible for any degeneration in the conversation.


I'm just sayin' ... buddyhollysghost is NOT representative of what you don't like - nor is her post.

[valis]

262. The preaching tone is annoying though...

You've got to admit... Postulating "ignorance" when the post itself does not offer a SHRED of scientific evidence to back up any of the claims... That, to me, is ignorance.

[Madrone]

277. Nope!

But then, I know buddyhollysghost, and I know where she's coming from. I DO know that preaching tone of which you speak, however - and I understand your disdain for it. BHG, however, is not guilty of it - which is why I used the term "knee jerk" in a previous post.

She is simply trying to explain her perspective, and why the women's struggle is an important one. She's not down on men at all - BELIEVE me.

Especially carnies! :rofl:

:hide:

[valis]

281. Oh, I don't know her. But I believe you.

:)

[Madrone]

291. LOL

You forgot the :sarcasm: smiley!

Check yer pm!

[Madrone]

292. Dupe.

:eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

351. How on earth do you get away with so many personal attacks?

You just called every feminist on this thread irrational. Where did you buy that teflon suit anyway?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

381. His teflon lasted a lot longer than your or mine would

:eyes:

[MissB]

409. But not any more.

:D

[noiretextatique]

361. so, the irrational now determine if threads are locked?

that's fucking rich :eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

366. Fortunately...

the right thing happened on this thread....

Thank you mods!

[noiretextatique]

403. i know

i actually posed that question to the disruptive one :D

[noiretextatique]

86. tormented by the dress codes of my youth

i refuse to wear the garments i was forced to wear as a child: dresses and skirts :puke: i had the most horrible excema and the sex-role nazism of the day forced me to endure the teasing of other kids, plus the discomfort of having my rashes constantly exposed.
it's all so stupid when you think about it now, but i also wasn't allowed to play saxophone in elementary school because the powers believed little girls didn't have the capacity to play such a big, bad instrument, so i was forced to play violin...which i hated.
things changed somewhat by the time i went to jr high in the early 70's, but i again challenged the rols nazis by <gasp> playing drum in my high school band. there were two or three of us who broke that gender barrier...with the support of our male band leader, who was a really great guy who everyone treated terribly. he caught a lot of flak, but he supported us 100%. eventually everyone got used to it...not big deal.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

206. I was such a tomboy...

growing up. LOVED my pants and sneakers -- hey, you can't climb trees in a dress! :) I went to Catholic school, so the first time I was able to wear pants to school was in 1975 -- before that it was all itchy wool skirts all the time.

I recommend taking sax lessons - I always wanted to play and finally started in my late 20s. It was a blast! It's never too late, NB. ;)

:hi:

Hell

[noiretextatique]

283. hi there hell

i was just asking tinoire about you the other day. rob sent me an email, and that also made me think of you.
i've been threatening to learn to play the sax...sounds like a great summer project :hi:

[EFerrari]

297. Not me. I loved girl drag, lol, AND wanted to climb trees in

embroidered velvet at 5 or so. Hey, you only live once. :)

[Terran]

93. Great post

Ignorance of history: one of my pet peeves, to put it mildly. I totally agree with and support you.

[smirkymonkey]

98. Hear, hear! Great post!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Triana]

116. Upsetting the Status Quo. Something might change!

We can't have that, nosiree. :sarcasm:

ANYONE who thinks women are 'now equal' to men and that all this discrimination and such is gone - is ON ANOTHER PLANET.

Discrimination against women: What do they call it now?

URBAN LEGEND. Yep. Doesn't exist anymore. It's 'all in our minds'. Here. Take another Valium.

HERE's an article for you:

http://tinyurl.com/4xduw

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

131. Thank you for checking in.

:rofl:

[Demit]

242. Haha! I like your well-chosen emoticon response

to an utterly baffling post. "Feminism has both a right and a left wing"--???

:rofl:

[Zenlitened]

139. The power in "girl power" refers to EMPOWERMENT.

Not more and better weapons.

Your impressions of feminism seem pretty muddled, to say the least. But then, I've never felt libertarians are the clearest of thinkers. Too many mental hoops to jump through.

[Misunderestimator]

141. Thanks for sharing that off-the-wall perspective.

Superiority?

How do feminists "use" the government to the gain the "upper hand in relationships?" You think that abortion rights are about controlling MEN? You think any of this is about controlling men?

Well, having never met a woman with such an agenda, I can only answer for myself. I have ZERO interest in controlling anyone. And it's a bit belittling for someone to boil down the entire cause to a desire to control men.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

154. Definition -- Feminism: Belief in the equality of the sexes.

...Social, political, and economic. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to point that out. If you run into a grrl who calls herself a feminist but believes in female SUPERIORITY, you can educate her.

[noiretextatique]

158. where did you learn about "modern day feminism?"

i am interested to know which books you've read on the subject and how you can to the conclusion you did about "girl power," feminists rejecting liberals who slightly disagree with them and so on.
thanks.

[Ripley]

165. It seems the self-admitted Libertarian isn't alone.

Gee, it appears that a lot of Liberal men at DU learned it in the same place wherever that may be (anywhere but from Feminists it seems). This is exactly the reason I posted about Bill Maher and his "entertainment schtick" is ever so similar to Rush's cover when they discuss women/feminists. (BTW, that thread is in the Women's rights and issues forum.)

:hi:

[EFerrari]

180. Bill Maher. So true. n/t

[noiretextatique]

305. thanks...i will check it out. i dislike bill maher

quite a lot. he's a whiny, little weasel when it comes to women :hi:

[stickdog]

442. Not if he can he beat them. from what I hear. (nt)

[noiretextatique]

467. that doesn't surprise me at all eom

[Tsiyu]

164. How many feminists do you actually know?

Most of what you are saying seems...sorry...like stereotypical feminist bashing.

Today we have women who can't get birth control ( but men can get their Viagra!). We have people trying to undo Roe v.Wade, politicians dropping funding for women's programs, fundies calling for a return to women as homemeakers and babymakers.

Our rights are far from secure, yet you claim some "overreaching" dogma? I just don't get this. I'm sorry. i really don't, and it saddens me greatly but that's the way it is....

[valis]

236. ALL women I know are strong feminist. I cannot stand

traditional women or bimbos... And THEY cannot stand and are ashamed of women who declare themselves spokepersons for all women and just go around ranting (and perpetuating sterotypes).

[EFerrari]

287. I don't think "feminist" means what you think it means.

And I haven't seen any posters here claiming to speak for all women because individual choice is a feminist value. Like the choice to be a "traditional woman".

And I see no one "just going around ranting". Although, I have to say, I LOVE seeing people behaving as if they have a right to their own thoughts and words, beliefs.

I hope all the women you know get over their shame when they here clear words from strong women.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

175. see, this is the kind of perception problem "feminism" has

it may not be fair or accurate. but the way people perceive feminism obviously effects how it is received. see my post earlier in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3827269&mesg_id=3827558

[EFerrari]

186. Do you see the same problem with Black Power?

It seems to me problematic to ask a suppressed group to make their first moves be ones that seek to please.

Akin to asking the GOP what our party should be called.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

211. i can see it that way and i understand your point

i am merely suggesting that there might be reasons for the resistance that comes up when one expresses themselves as a feminist.

the fact is that people react to words like "feminist" and "black power" because the are perceived as exclusive. if i am not a woman or black, upon initial inspection it would be hard for me to believe that i could consider myself a member of one of these "groups". i may support their goals and grievances, but i don't feel that i can be a "feminist" or a "black power" member because the nature of the terms seem to exclude me.

i am not saying anyone is right or wrong here, just trying to spell out why "reasonable" people can feel threatened simply by the nomenclature.

if we are truly talking about gender equality across the board, there is no need to tie the name of this idea to a specific gender, it is counter intuitive and as i have said creates resistance due to its (incorrectly) perceived meaning.

as i see it, it is not about asking a suppressed group seek to please, it is about doing away terminology that is confusing and redundant which in turn causes resistance due to misunderstanding.

again, i am totally sympathetic to feminism, i am just trying to talk about why it may receive the resistance that it does.

[EFerrari]

233. I see your point, too. Remember the old Woody Allen line?

"I could have gone gotten a degree in Black Studies, I could have been Black by now!"

At some point, the term itself may become an artefact, part of a linguistic map showing us how we got from humanism to humanism. :)

[SheepyMcSheepster]

247. agreed

thanks for hearing me out.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

260. Thank you. It's a little like trying to talk at Toys R Us on

Christmas Eve at closing time. lol

But, hopefully productive in some way.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

272. lol, nice analogy

before all the threads today i had never looked up the definition of feminism. i just assumed that i knew what it meant by the way it sounded. for today i have learned!

[valis]

251. Agreed.

[Shallah Kali]

178. huh? abortion is about controling men?

I just don't understand....

[Ripley]

184. Every sperm is sacred.

I think that about sums it up.

[EFerrari]

190. OuCh. lol! n/t

[Stepup2]

149. Thank you for validating

my childhood experiences in a concise statement.

Powerful post: a reminder of how far we have come, but more importantly how VERY far we still have to go.

[ProfessorGAC]

155. A Point Well Taken

And i agree. I've got no problem with seeing certain philosophical constructs that are part and parcel of being liberal or progressive. It's just logical, i would think.
The Professor

[Zenlitened]

168. Well said.

I've got no problem with seeing certain philosophical constructs that are part and parcel of being liberal or progressive. It's just logical, i would think.

:toast:

[valis]

167. I'm sure you'd find a movement called "masculinism" offensive.

Why the double standard?

[Misunderestimator]

174. I would not find it offensive at all...

Why would you make the assumption that the OP would find it offensive? I think men could benefit greatly from a group that gives them the opportunity to discuss issues related to men.

Instead of accusing someone of having a double-standard, you really should propose your new group and write a mission statement.

[valis]

Because it has a male word in it. All that is needed.

[Misunderestimator]

196. You didn't answer my question... You're still making an assumption.

What in the OP makes you assume that having "male" in a group would be offensive?










FUCKING AMAZING.

[valis]

201. Why do you assume it wouldn't? All evidence I have is that it would.

The ridiculous level of defensiveness for one. You've got to understand that there are many strong women out there who do not feel like they are victims... And they spend their time actually getting their way in the real world instead of yelling on the internet... Those women should be the role models for the feminist movement...

[Misunderestimator]

210. You must be privvy to evidence I have not seen.

And calling this OP defensive is utter nonsense. And consistently accusing strong women like myself of playing victim because we believe in feminism is extremely inflammatory, but you know that.

If you think that the internet and progressive forums are not the place to further a progressive cause, I'm not quite sure why you are a member of Democratic Underground. Seriously.

[valis]

224. Not accusing you. I don't even know you. Who are you?

Are you questioning my patriotism or something? :crazy:

[Misunderestimator]

239. How funny.... we've been posting to eachother extensively over the past

few days... Being that you've made your presence known on a LOT of threads about feminism... I'm sure you've noticed.

As for the accusation... I am a strong woman and I support and fight for the ideals of feminism. I also post about the subject in forums like this... therefore you were accusing me.

[valis]

255. No, I don't look at poster names, usually. What's the point?

I don't know you, I don't care about your poster name, poster names are not in a one-to-one relation with real people.

[Misunderestimator]

271. LOL

Right.... :rofl:

(I forget sometimes about the one-to-many relationships of some real people to their numerous sockpuppets)

[lukasahero]

288. "poster names are not in a one-to-one relation with real people."

Really? Why would you say that? I know it happens but I generally consider it the exception rather than the rule. Is there a reason you see it more as a rule than the exception?

[valis]

308. There is no way to know, is there?

There is no way to verify anything online, unless you know the person in real life. Pretty obvious, no?

[lukasahero]

325. Why would you assume people are, in effect, lying?

I don't generally assume things about people online or off unless their words and deeds give me reason to. Do you?

[valis]

333. I assume they are lying unless their words and deeds give me reason not to

[lukasahero]

342. I guess we work with what we know. Sorry your world is so ugly. n/t

[EFerrari]

177. Oh, it's even better than that. "Humanism" was "masculinism"

in drag for hundreds of years. That's why we needed a word for "humanism" and how we got to feminism.

[Zenlitened]

181. How would it compare to "White Pride" or "Straight Pride" groups?

Just curious.

[Tsiyu]

200. Why are you so sure

Oh, that's right, you know what every woman thinks without even being asked!

Never mind, I won't say that it wouldn't bother me at all. I am the mother of six sons and a daughter, friend, but then again, why mention it because you have testicles and you KNOW already everything about me!

Now you tell me, when were there laws on the books prohibiting YOU from buying condoms, voting, owning property, working in any field you choose? Are there any laws like that you've had to fight? If so, the double standard moniker might apply. but if you haven't had to fight for these simple human rights, you cannot really compare your struggles to those of women through the years, and therefore a "double standard" cannot exist.

[Ron Green]

237. "Masculinism" is an intermediate step, for men, on the way to Feminism.

As I suggested in another post, boys become men, and then men become humans. The fear that keeps men from identifying more completely with women is the same locker-room bravado that makes men invade other countries, abuse women, turn their caps around backwards and drink shitty beer.

The final step is to give that stuff up and become fully human, i.e. a Feminist.

[valis]

250. I'm an egalitarian. And the domain is "all humans". That's the meaning.

[Ron Green]

261. Sorry, I should have said, "fully human." I was using the term "human"

in a more restrictive way, acknowledging that there are plenty of folks walking around who haven't done much work toward being human.

[valis]

270. I tend to agree with that. Frat boys are caricatures of "men".

They are just immature humans. But there are plenty of Sorority girls who are equally immature. In any case, as usual, when you say that this is different than that, please cite real evidence. Not anecdotes. Read something serious, a scientific study. That would be a contribution to the discussion.

[Ron Green]

295. "There are plenty of Sorority girls who are equally immature."

The difference is that, for the girls to mature, they must reject the traditional shallow stereotype and become more feminist. And for the boys to mature, they also must reject the traditional shallow MALE stereotype and become.....feminist.

(I don't know of any scientific studies on this, but I'm waiting for a reasonable refutation.)

[valis]

335. I think ALL of them have to simply become TOLERANT.

[Ron Green]

371. Perhaps you've hit it. FEMINISM = TOLERANCE.

Being caught in the grip of sexual stereotyping is what's at issue here. Such stereotyping was surely useful once, when work and family roles were rigidly maintained for the survival of the species. And on the individual level, sexual stereotyping is useful during the mating years.

But to be tolerant of "the Other" is to accept not only the quirks of the opposite sex, but the opposite to one's own sexual roles. So in this sense, Feminism is the corrective not for just "masculinism," but for sexual stereotyping in general.

[EFerrari]

389. Interesting. Tolerance or respect, do you think? Wee bit of dif. nt

[Ron Green]

391. Right you are. Respect is the term, and carried to the logical conclusion,

respect for the whole of the self, which would include feminine as well as masculine traits, would then constitute "self-respect."

Additionally, "re-spect," taken from Latin roots, would seem to mean to "look again."

There it is - - take the time to re-examine your life, and life in general, and you've got to become a Feminist.

[EFerrari]

394. Somewhere between respecting and reflecting, there

is where our real, untidy lives are lived.

Last aside: I went to college about a year before my mother did. One of my texts was "Sisterhood is Powerful". Mom saw it on my desk and yelled at me, "I don't want this Lesbian cR@p in my house!"

So, the next year, she went back to school. Within a week, it was nonstop lectures on how I was oppressed by my relationships with men.

And, she had the 2nd Edition of "Sisterhood is Powerful". In hardback.

We both have 2 sons. lmao.

(Cue Aretha)

:toast:

[wovenpaint]

169. Good post! Women are at an "automatic" disadvantage

Whether it's admitted/acknowledged, poo-pooed or not.

The Equal Rights Amendment was ratified by 35 states, IIRC. I'd love to see the ERA issue brought back to the forefront-especially now that women are involved in the Iraq Occupation.

During the ERA movement, that was one of the objections by Phyllis Schafly et al-"We'd have to send our women into combat!!!!! Women DON'T have equal rights.

BTW, Have you heard any stories (that made the news) of men being turned away from the pharmacy counter for trying to fill a Viagra prescription because the pharmacist had "moral" issues with it???

[Madrone]

380. Moral Viagra.

No - it's a fundamentalist pharmacist's DUTY to make sure a man is able to spread his seed far and wide, so not only is it MORAL to deny women birth control, it would be IMMORAL to prevent men from achieving their all important erections.

[deutsey]

171. Good post. I can't believe this is even an issue here.

[Tsiyu]

444. I can't believe it either, deutsey

but I think it is important that we are discussing the issue anyway.
You can never give up. You just have to keep trying to help people to see things in a little different light. Gotta chip away at that stone wall a little at a time.

I learned from being on a talk show that people hear certain "key words" and they believe they automatically know what you are going to say just from those key words.

In this thread, we've even seen disruptors try to insert what they "hoped to find" ( to support their assertion that feminism is not vital to society) and then go off the deep end trying to nitpick to find something- ANYTHING wrong. I can almost see the steam billowing out of the ears of those who can't just resort to calling me a cunt or a whore or a man-hating bitch.

Because this is the fabulous place called DU, they can't go there so they get really frustrated. But then that gets others talking and there isn't a thing wrong with that! :hi:


Love your sig pic!!!!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

179. Thank you for the post, BHG!

:hi:

I am 45 years old -- raised in a time caught somewhere between "Ozzie & Harriet" and Roe v. Wade.

I belong to the first generation of women who collectively could choose a life other than that of wife and mother, who could enter the workplace, who could purchase her own property and pay her own way through life.

For every generation after me, all these things were a given. For them, to not have know anything else is both a joy and a danger -- a joy because that is a world that so many women through the years have given their lives to achieve and a danger exactly because they have never known anything else.

In 1964, my working Mom was unable to buy a house without her step-father having his name on the deed and co-signing the loan. She was turned down for jobs because "there were men with families" out there who needed the job (what were her three kids? Chopped liver?). As an executive she watched as men younger than her, with less experience and time with the company received higher salaries than her.

Thanks to the feminist movement I have never been faced with those situations, but I have faced -- and continue to face -- the remnants of that old view of women.

I am a feminist. It is not a term I run from but embrace, because I do remember the world before and I see how far we still must come.

As long as a single woman still faces pay inequity I must be a feminist.

As long as a single woman still faces loosing her job because of pregnancy I must be a feminist.

As long as a single woman still faces having her reproductive choices taken from her I must be a feminist.

As long as a single woman still faces rape and battering I must be a feminist.

I'd love to be able to once and for all let go of the self-label of "feminist", but, unfortunately, the fight is still there to be won.

[Tsiyu]

191. Thanks, HHNF

That's the real point, isn't it? We haven't secured our liberty as females. Not yet.

Your post was very moving and i appreciate the support of each and every one of you. Another reason to love DU, even if the feminism threads always get locked!

:grouphug:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

197. Right back attcha!

:grouphug:

[wovenpaint]

220. Me, too! well said

:hi: :thumbsup:

I'm also of the "first generation" women....these hard won things are so taken for granted by the younger generation.

That's why I took my daughter to DC for the March for Women-where I regained some hope because of the 1 million + turnout (barely acknowledged in the MSM).

But it takes more than a march and the baton is being passed to younger women (and men, too)-DON'T drop it...please!

Joni Mitchell sings it well-"you don't know what you got til it's gone"

[Tsiyu]

223. I have to head down to Bonnaroo for a bit

Carry on, all.

Try not to get this thread locked before I get back!!!


:headbang:

[Misunderestimator]

246. Wonderful post!

At nearly 43... I relate entirely.

[Lorien]

221. Our work is far from finished

just a few years ago I was doing some freelance work for a major corporation and discovered that I was "highly regarded" by the corporation because I was ALMOST receiving the wages paid to male freelancers! This company paid $25 an hour to women and $45 an hour to men for the same job (they paid me $40 an hour). I demanded equal pay and got it-but they wouldn't raise their rates for other women.Anyone who thinks of themselves as a "progressive" yet does not see a need for the feminist movement has been living in a cave of their own making.

[Name removed]

226. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VelmaD]

230. Hoist on your own petard...

you said it yourself...real men (real adults actually) stand up to bullies. So what does that imply about all those members of your gender over the centuries who have felt it necessary to bully women?

[Zenlitened]

234. But women DO have the right to decide what a real man is.

Just as there is a long cultural tradition of men deciding what a real woman is.

It's the marketplace of ideas, and it's very real whether one agrees with it or not.

What definition or definitions of "real" will prevail? Time will tell.

[EFerrari]

243. Sorry, no it's not. What feminist papers have you read

that would so ill inform you?

"This is the classic attack feminists use - what it all boils down to. We disagree with them because we have small penises and are not real men."

Wow.

[noiretextatique]

309. i also wonder which feminist author claimed that

isn't it interesting? such over-heated "opposition" without any real knowledge of what one is actually opposing? the defensiveness...the projection...the denial.
sheesh...who knew just how much feminism is still needed?
(well, i did :eyes: )

[Demit]

266. Even if you are only paraphrasing someone, whom are you paraphrasing?

"the classic attack feminists use"--who? Which feminists? Who said the thing that you are paraphrasing as "men who disagree with feminists have small penises"?

Presumably you are a man who "disagrees with" feminists. I'm curious: what's the nature of your disagreement?

[enigmatic]

316. I'm with you on this

great post.

[Name removed]

343. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lars39]

350. It may have been a pattern of postings.

Or he may have posted too many too quick. :shrug:

[Madrone]

364. Well, I've not seen any extremely negative trend.

Shit - if we are going to start TS'ing people we don't like or that say some things we don't agree with - where can I submit *my* list?

[Misunderestimator]

369. I'd suggest you merely do a search of his posts over the past few

weeks... It really should speak for itself.

It really isn't as simple as not liking someone... it apparently takes a VERY long time and a huge amount of disruption from someone to be TS'd.

[Madrone]

374. I did.

He thinks devices that slice up a man's penis if he dares to rape a woman are a great idea.

The christian coalition should put up or shut up in their accusations regarding Dean and his "racist remarks"

He grew up with sisters and is strongly for equality for men and women...


I must be missing something.

[Misunderestimator]

375. Yes, you must be missing something.

He broke rules, he was tombstoned. Good enough for me... I'm happy to be rid of the disruption.

[Madrone]

377. I guess it all depends

on who's causing the disruption.

:shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

378. I believe it actually depends on the disruption itself...

unless you are accusing the mods of playing preferences? That would be weird.

[bloom]

388. At least one of the threads

with his most egregious disrupting was pulled - so it's not available. I thought he was asking for it...

[Misunderestimator]

362. Thank god!

And for an answer.... He's been spewing shit all over all the forums for a loooooong time now.

Good Riddance!

[funflower]

370. Extremely well said, buddyhollysghost. Almost every construct we think is

"neutral" developed out of a pre-feminist, patriarchal society.

The government, higher education, our work schedules, the military, a thousand-and-one "customs" relating to our working and personal lives came out of world where men ruled and women served.

Until we understand that the very wallpaper of our world is designed to put men in charge of women, we can't begin to make the kinds of changes that would actually make for a level playing field.

That being said, and considering myself a committed feminist, I'm not sure the term "feminist" is the best word for what we are trying to accomplish.

[bloom]

395. "the term "feminist"

(I was going to get around to discussing that earlier and then I got sidetracked).


Given that to effectively change society feminist women need (or at least it would be most helpful) to have feminist men and since some men (as we've seen here) don't like the idea of being called feminists for whatever reasons - it seems that it would be good to have a different name for them or a different name for everybody.

While I don't like the Republicans Orwellian practices of calling things the opposite of what they are to get support - it does seem that is useful to be mindful of the impact of words - and if another word would work better - it seems good to be flexible.


It's about time for a reinvigoration of the movement, anyway.

[funflower]

406. Absolutely. I've been amazed by the absence of discussion of

feminism on DU (until the past few days anyway).

[Tsiyu]

396. If it's time to change the word

it's only because it has lost its meaning entirely. And you may be right, but I would again have to say people have to look at the term and its usage and they will understand that the word feminism can be debated, disparaged and hated, but the movement of feminism - the movement that gave us voting rights and a chance at athletic scholarships and the ability to open our own stores and restaurants and the right to do all of those things that were denied women from this country's inception until the laws changed - cannot, in my mind, be anything but a GOOD thing.

Debate the name of it, but don't say it has no value. Many horrible sins were corrected because of brave feminists.

[funflower]

408. Not criticizing the word. Just wonder if it's the most effective

word possible from a PR perspective. I personally like the term "feminism" just fine, but I notice it seems to get some people upset even when they agree with the underlying concept. I certainly can't think of a better word.

I agree with everything you've said.

[Turn CO Blue]

410. I've wondered about that too, that we shouldn't rename the

movement. Feminism or feminist or feminine -- they just don't quite seem to express what we really want to say...

If I said, "Oh, she's so feminine!" You would maybe think that "she" is wearing lipstick, lace and high-heeled pumps and is quite dainty.

Yet, if I said, "Oh, she's a bold feminist!" The ditto-heads jump to the conclusion that "she" is a man-eating, swaggering, argumentative and bitter Feminazi (forgive the use of Fathead's word, it's just for descriptive purposes.)

Of course some older folks still call the movement ERA, even though the Amendment (itself) hasn't been discussed for ages.


--------------
Feminism - the radical notion that women are people

[Kenneth ken]

379. nice post

I was a feminist long before I knew the history of women. I grew up in a household headed by a divorced Mom, and saw daily how hard her life was, and because she is such a good woman, and my mommy, and I love her, I have always wished her life during my childhood had been less harsh.

Two, sometimes three jobs to keep us fed and housed; why? Because as a woman she couldn't earn as much at one job as a man. That just sucks.

I only learned the history of feminism to get a better understanding of why, and that made me more of a feminist.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

382. again, I appreciate the men that defend feminism more than the women

Women defend it out of self preservation...men defend it on its genuine merits..great post! :thumbsup:

[Kenneth ken]

411. thank you n/t

[G_j]

384. Nominated !

[EFerrari]

386. Are you trying to start something?

:)

[Pobeka]

393. Ladies

I wish you didn't have to fight for equality. I wish the world was made of people who could be just accepting and unafraid. But I too know it's not that way.

It hurts us all when someone's not treated equally, or feels held back because they are afraid of trying their best because they fear undeserved backlash.

So you all be strong, or be feminine, or both. There is room for both in the world.

[VelmaD]

402. I think I know what you're trying to say but...

just so you know...it isn't a matter of strong or feminine.

[Pobeka]

407. Yep.

I was trying to show my respect (and encouragement) for the entire range of traits women can have, or may show to stand as equals or individuals, and those 2 popped out first.

[EFerrari]

412. 'Way to go.

In a way, it's no wonder this thread was sort of explosive. Even now, we're all learning a new language.

I love DU. Grumpy, defensive, strident, earnest, real DU.

DU. :loveya:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

413. Nice to see you, Pobeka!

:hi:

[Pobeka]

427. Cheers!

:hi:

[cap]

401. the struggle is not over with this administration

Equal Pay Initiative rules are not enforced by the shill at DOL, Elaine Chao

Middle aged women are laid off in very high numbers during this economic downturn

If we dont need feminism now, when will we need? When we are starving and cant be employed at positions where our talents are in relationship with the job at hand.

[KnowerOfLogic]

405. Susan B. Anthony said very much the same shortly before she died. nt

[Kathy in Cambridge]

414. kick

[BrklynLiberal]

421. kick

[snot]

425. It was conservatives who demonized "feminists" AND "liberals" --

Personally, although I understand the risks, my gut feeling is that I prefer to stand up and say I REJECT their slander. THIS is the true meaning of feminisim, it is NOT a dirty word, and I'm PROUD to be a feminist and a liberal.

In fact, I'd been thinking of making a t-shirt discreetly labelling myself as a feminist liberal agnostic secular humanist . . . am I missing anything?

[Tsiyu]

441. pro-choice, vegetarian, tree-hugging, cultural elite

:)

[snot]

500. YEAH, baby! nt

[FizzFuzz]

426. I watched ads for cereal where boys terrorized girls

The bratty snobby acting girl, dressed in ridiculously over-feminine party dress sneaks into the BOYS ONLY clubhouse to steal their cereal. And it was "funny" when the boys caught her and gave her the humiliation she so richly deserved. Its OK to hate girls. Its even cute and funny, and who could possibly sympathize with girls who are prissy, and fussy, and selfish and nosey, and don't have BALLS. Sugar Stars are just for boys.

No one cared how that made girls feel. I didn't play with dolls, even though my mother wished I would. I remember her delightedly taking pics of me at 6 with a doll at Xmass...I remember a vague feeling of thinking that I had to fake liking this doll, it might make me normal.

When she got me a microscope when I was 10 or so, I was thrilled. Years later she told me the guy she bought it from asked how old was her son.

She didn't correct him. And didn't understand why I was angry.

[spooky3]

435. Stories like yours are what Larry Summers and his ilk don't "get."

Those messages are very powerful with children, sadly. I hope you are today doing what is right for you.

Also, there is Catch 22 in the ad you described. Little girls are not supposed to wear jeans and be active or have clubhouses--they're supposed to be feminine and be cute and wear sweet little party dresses and grow up to do adult versions of the same, and we'll approve them. Oh wait, no, we'll punish them (as in the commercial). Er, ah...?

[Nothing Without Hope]

430. Well said. When feminine power is hated, feared and repressed,

the society is unbalanced, sick, shallow and violent. Every time.

[Tsiyu]

440. That's what is so amazing

When you look at nations where women are treated the worst, the economy and government of those nations also tend to suck big time. This may not be the case in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, but then the poor still exist in those countries - the privileged few have most of the wealth...


You are seeing in this administration the failure of patriarchy to keep a nation solvent. If only more people could understand that this is not by accident. The hatred of feminism some here so heartily endorse is the same hatred of women, children, and anyone NOT WHITE HETERO MALE displayed with wanton abandon by the current administration and its supporters.

It is no accident that they hate feminism. Feminism would insist that we wage peace rather than war; that we focus on educating our people, not building more prisons to incarcerate them; that we demand that corporations benefiting from the American system and market have to give back something to America for the privilege of doing business here rather than bending over and inviting corporations to dodge out of paying a fair share of taxes and support for the infrastructure they use; feminism would insist that we treat our envronment with care, not use it up and trash it as fast as we can...

George B*sh HATES feminism. Karl Rove, James Dobson, Bill Frist, all HATE feminism. Why is that? Ask yourself that question, and perhaps you will see that it's entirely possible that the enmity some Dems have for feminism is a Repuke's best weapon.

And it might be that the failure to study, understand and embrace feminism causes the Democratic party to stagnate and to lose relevance to those it should inspire.

[Nothing Without Hope]

446. Anti-feminism is tied to intolerance of all sorts by the GOPs.

Their rabid anti-gayness is another aspect of it. Anything that's not their particular old-boy group is demonized and punished.

It's hideous and sick, based on fear, hatred, ignorance and greed.

[EFerrari]

452. Just before we invaded Afghanistan, I read in the L.A. weekly

an article about a study that correlated ( I think) the well being of a society with its treatment of women. I remember putting it down on the bus seat next to me, just stunned at the numbers.

I CAN'T FIND IT NOW. If anyone has it or knows it, please let me know.

[Hello_Kitty]

462. Macro-economics prof I had told us

That the status of women is one of the primary factors that determines a nation's economic prosperity and technological advancement. In most 3rd world countries, women are denied education and employment opportunities and usually don't have access to contraception. The exceptions are countries like Saudi Arabia who happen to be rich in a natural resource. But you are right, there is a huge disparity between haves and have-nots.

[Nothing Without Hope]

466. I'd like to see that too. Please let me know if you find it, and I'll do

same for you.
:hi:

PS and drastically OT - got some funny videos to send to our Andy while yardsailing today - two South Park and a Monty Python. I hope he can watch VHS - please let me know if you know he can't.

[EFerrari]

472. Will do,both ! (link added)

:hi:

On edit: here a a UN Press Release for starters:

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2000/20000308.sc6816.doc.html

[Tsiyu]

496. Say hi to Andy for us!

:hi:

[stickdog]

433. You are 100% right and I heartily applaud your enlightening post.

Only to be used in the company of educated post-modern liberals:

Q. How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

[Tsiyu]

436. LOL thank you to everyone for keeping this alive

It's pretty sad when your pathetic dialup keeps you from reading and responding to your own thread, but I have tried to read every post even if I could not respond and EVERYONE who is supporting or at least trying to understand my opinions has my sincere gratitude.

Even if I did not respond personally, i admire and appreciate every one of you! Fizz Fuzz, Velma D, sfexpat, Madrone, Bunny, Lars, NSMA, eowyn,...there are so many others I cannot name you all here but just know that if you had something positive or thoughtful to say, I hold you in the highest esteem.

And thank you so much, Mods for not locking this thread. I am impressed beyond belief that we have been able to keep up the dialogue.

We have turned a corner....;)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

460. What made the difference on this thread from other threads about the topic

is that many MALES came forward in support of the basic principles of feminism...something that doesn't happen often even though many men at DU do support feminism.

[Tsiyu]

465. You are correct there

although I have seen men stand up for feminism on DU; the threads get locked before many can climb on board, unfortunately.

The one thing that impresses me here are the men who are joining this post annoyed, but who leave with understanding - and acknowledge that.

[Jose Diablo]

445. Say, this looks like a good place

to put up a mud wrestling tournament.

[sendero]

447. Something...

.. I realized a couple weeks ago - I wanted to talk about it and this thread seems ripe for the talking :)

My wife is a mid-level manager at a well-known company. All of her peers are men, but there are a couple women in the chain of command above her.

Her peers and her immediate boss are, well, idiots. She is forever bailing them out of their total incompetence. She has to drag the department kicking and screaming into doing things a new and better way, or to make people follow established procedures which are important in their line of work (health care).

Some of the stories she tells me just get me angry. A couple weeks ago she was relating a situation. I told her "I'd walk into JOEBLOW's office and read him the riot act, I would not put up with this shit".

She said, without a hint of self-pity or anything like that, that if she were a man she could do that, but it would be a career-limiting act for her as a woman.

I thought about it for a minute. When I worked in the corporate world you can bet that if I thought something was bullshit I said so, to whoever would listen from the president on down. I never worried too much about consequences - people knew me and even if they disagreed, they knew my goal was the same as theirs. And, I have worked at companies where a woman could do that as well, but I've worked at companies where that would in fact be a career-limiting act for a woman to commit.

Things have come a long way. But I do understand that we don't really have true equality yet. This particular company is large and has strict policies about equal treatment, I'm not blaming the company at all they are doing everything they can. This is about personal reactions and the inability of some men to accept a women as their peer or superior in the world of work.

[AuntiBush]

450. Thank you, sendero. Your wife is 1 lucky woman for your support and

understand of this issue. As a woman, I can't tell you how often I've been on that receiving end; men do get away w/more then women on the job, as well as other situations: Car and Home repairs, etc...

What I got out of the post was pretty basic: The Bush/Rove/Frist/Delay agenda is to shove women back in time after decades of civil liberty work. Something we should never have had to do to begin with.

Women marched so other's could vote, yet women were the last to be given this opportunity, not that many decades ago. The Faux-Fristian types on the Right-Wing-Nutbag side are working hard to take women's rights from them, like Freedom of Choice with her body - try that on a man.

So, that's what I got out of it and as a woman I'd feel pretty offended if my fellow male DU members didn't back me to the wall on this one, as I do (out here) as a Democrat, fighting for our Democracy.

Freedom and Justice for "all."

[AuntiBush]

451. On Note:

In public by nature I hold doors opened for my fellow shopper, women and men alike, always - without giving it a thought.

If I had a dollar for every man of all ages that do not hold doors open for me willfully (they make eye contact w/me and it ain't pretty) allowing doors to hit me in the face, literally I'd be a millionaire.

I've had men say to me, "Hey, you wanted equal rights... they're ya go."

Yet, I still hold doors open for anyone, regardless. I guess it's called common basic courtesy for my fellow human being. What's that got to do with feminism, I ask. Just common, considerate courtesy.

[Tsiyu]

453. Both good posts n/t

[AuntiBush]

486. Rantin' and a Ravin': Was Spit At Today by a Young Repuk!

:) Sorry but this morning I had the Un-Senssenburger on my mind, walking out on Conyers and the others - mistreating American Citizens.

Sick of the Republican's arrogance, massive abuse of power bestowed upon them and the disgrace they've placed our country in.

Was spit at today by two real nice *scarism* young gals, w/ religious-right-winger crap all over their cars, while they laughed today. They spit the biggest luger I'd ever seen coming from a young gal from their car directly at my 75 yr old aunt's opened window.

We were talking w/the window's down about Bush. Not loud, but they were that close to us though I didn't notice them till I heard the laughing... Congrats Bush/Rove! You have turned a young generation into hate-filled group. When I was a teen we held-up 2 fingers in the shape of a V. It stood for "peace," and practiced "love!"

As the light turned green, they looked at my poor ole aunt as I was sneering at them (they wouldn't make eye-contact w/me) and gave that Satin-Crap Sign, the one w/the 3 fingers at us laughing!

They did give me 1 glance as that light turned green on a turn and sped on down the road in full gear. I would have too, if you knew me. And all you could see was that big cross on the back window.

Nice... real Christian-like! That's what I live around. Gotta watch my temper.... :

[beam me up scottie]

491. Your story deserves it's own thread.

Seriously.
I would never ever ever ever expect that to happen and would be taken totally by surprise if it did.
But thanks to you, I am now prepared and mad as hell.
I live in an area where putting liberal bumper stickers on your car pretty much guarantees a keying or worse.
We need to be reminded of what kind of fanaticism we are dealing with.

Good for you for not pulling a Kathy Bates move from the film Fried Green Tomatoes! (although you must have been tempted)

[Tsiyu]

494. "yes, but I'm older and have better insurance!"

or something like that. One of the greatest scenes ever....I agree Aunti ought to start her own thread to discuss the Repuke Lost Youth.

[AuntiBush]

502. Thank you, scottie. Had 1 old ANGRY Man slam my car with

a shopping cart, outside a local Home Depot. He sat there looking like he wanted to literally kill me. I'm not a tall person by any means. And I was alone. Left a dent in my car.

Had another man literally try to slam into the back of my car in front of tons of drivers because of my DU sticker. I took it off, but he too was an elderly man, screaming at me & sticking finger upwardly when he should have been paying attention to drive.

But lately, I'm hearing WAY MORE REPUBLICAN voters talking the way we do out here. They want IMPEACHMENT of the whole clan, not just Bush. They are super fed-up. Heard all of this late yesterday. They're also fed-up with Bush trying to sway their children/grandchildren turning them into violent-demon lovers, quoting about 20+ folks.

[beam me up scottie]

503. Damn it, I hate to hear stuff like that.

I am a fairly petite person as well.
Unfortunately I was born with what appears to be an overactive adrenal gland.
I think if I had witnessed what happened to you, I would have gotten myself into a world of trouble.
Ever since I was a kid I have been like this. If I saw an animal being abused, I would have to be physically restrained.
I have learned that violence is never necessary but that damn adrenaline kicks in before my brain can override it.

I agree that more moderate republicans are getting fed up.
It's these pathetic bullies who worship the chimperor that we have to worry about.

[rndmprsn]

449. male and feminist....

ive had arguments with some co-workers who think men cannot be feminists...they look at me like i'm some kind of alien from outspace when i tell them that i am a feminist.

[Tsiyu]

455. Good for you

and for all men who say it with pride! :headbang:

[Lorien]

464. Arsenio Hall calls himself a "proud feminist"

He never had a man in his life when he was a child. He and his sisters were raised entirely by their mother and Grandmother, both of whom had been left by men and struggled to keep their family together. He witnessed that struggle first hand and gained a profound respect for the challenges women face-even today. He has always been quick to identify himself as a feminist, which is pretty damn sexy IMHO! ;-)

[mongo]

457. I am alll for feminism, equal rights and correcting injustice

As long as that includes not debasing or shameing women who work in adult entertainment, for THEIR particular career choices.

Viewing a women as a sexual object in the office is wrong. Viewing a porn star or a stripper at work as a sexual being is not.

[Tsiyu]

459. Feminism gives women a choice in this

It should be in the same category as stay-at-home-mommyhood vs working mommyhood. To each his own with no judgements from either side, and the sides would be:

Those feminists who see nothing wrong with the adult entertainment industry as it exists today. There are many in this category who agree with all the tenets of feminism but still think strip clubs, porn films and prostitution should be legal and unregulated.

and

Those feminists who abhor most pornography for what they view as blatant misogyny and for the working conditions of the women involved in the industry. There are many in this category who wish that women did not have to make their living this way- that this itself is inherently degrading to women. They want the adult entertainment industry to show more responsibility - re: AIDS, sexual abuse, working conditions, pay scale. Some of course hate all pornography and wish it would go away.

These two camps will always exist under the large Feminist banner. Personally I do not judge anyone, nor would I ban porn, but I do expect more responsibility from the adult entertainment industry.

[mongo]

469. As far as responsibility goes

hey want the adult entertainment industry to show more responsibility - re: AIDS, sexual abuse, working conditions, pay scale.

The AIDs rate in the (straight) adult performer community is less than that of the general population.

Something like 95% of the adult film companies require their performers to be tested for STD's on a regular basis. It used to be monthly, but I think they changed it to every 2 or 3 weeks now. It is serviced by AIM - Adult Industry Meicine http://www.aim-med.org/

There hadn't been an HIV outbreak in the adult community for 10 years before last summer, when a performer worked in Brazil with another performer with a forged paper health certificate. In the US, the system is phone based instead of paper, and producers call for a particular performers results.

As far as abuse, yes there is some nasty porn out there that is a depiction of abuse or rape. But that is a very small portion of the market, and it is a DEPICTION, not the filming of an actual crime. There is a larger catagory which is kind of a grey area, where women are certainly not being treated respectfully, but the largest and most successful companies ARE making couple-friendly porn.

As far as working conditions/pay scale. Female performers make from 300-1000 per scene. This may put them on the set for 4-6 hours for one scene, but they aren't performing the whole time. Male performers get paid around 100 per scene. Both male and female porn stars make much more than that. As far as other working conditions, as contract performers they are not getting health insurance and a pension plan, but they are paid well, and most are the type of people who would not seek out a 9-5 job - or have the skills to work in the kind of middle class jobs that would give them these benefits.

My main beef adult entertainment regarding responsibility is that they often depict very unsafe sex practices - (ATM from example). These women have taken some special preparations for these scense, and actually in most cases, the scene is edited to look like it occured, when in actuality it didn't. As far as condom use/fluid swapping, I don't really think it is porn's mission to be sexual education for the masses, in the same way your average action shoot-em-up is not meant as gun safety education.

Otherwise, I think you are spot on in your classification of feminists and their views on porn. I don't tend to get along with many of the Dworkinite type feminists on DU, but in my experience there are more women and men who consider themselves feminists (Daisy and myself included) with a sex positive view here on DU.

[beam me up scottie]

471. " Dworkinite type feminists on DU" ?

Is that a term feminists use ?

[Zenlitened]

482. If you yawn and roll your eyes when someone trots out the "I love porn"...

... lecture every time someone mentions the word "woman"... does that make you a "Dworkinite" feminist?

:D

[beam me up scottie]

483. Maybe he should do his thesis

on today's Dworkinite women and how they differ from their dworkinite
ancestors.
Is that part of the Women's Studies programs I've heard so much about?

[Zenlitened]

484. I believe it's taught in "Feminazis 101"

:D

[beam me up scottie]

487. Oh, I just googled it!

That course is taught at the Rush Limbaugh School for the Chronically Ignorant.

And look ! The class is full for the next 10 years.

That must be the because of all of the missionaries they send out into the community to educate people about the huge contributions the porn industry has made to society.

[beam me up scottie]

463. What feminists do that?

Can you point to specific examples?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

473. No one is debasing those woman NEAR as much as you

criticize anyone with a view not similar to your own.

As far as your post below is concerned, you are rattling off stats that you cannot possibly know to be true.

Lots of women are drugged for porn scenes and many retired from the industry admit it.

Furthermore, the most BASIC issue of porn is that it FOR THE MOST part, serves to objectify women. All the wonderful pay in the world does not negate that fact.

[mongo]

476. I know what the stats are

because I keep up with the industry. If I wasn't going to be outta here in twenty minutes I'd find you some articles.

Lots of women are drugged for porn scenes and many retired from the industry admit it.

Lots of women in the adult industry use drugs. I'm not denying that, but your statement seems to indicate that they are drugged against their will and then used for a scene - and that isn't the case.

Furthermore, the most BASIC issue of porn is that it FOR THE MOST part, serves to objectify women. All the wonderful pay in the world does not negate that fact.

That is kinda the point of porn isn't it? To be aroused by women and men being portrayed as sexual beings? If a man in a sitcom is portrayed as an idoit, does that serve to portray all men as idiots?

[beam me up scottie]

479. So NO women were ever drugged?

How can you possible know that?

[EFerrari]

474. Still not the report I was looking for correlating violence against

women and the quality of life of a society, but an interesting study.

http://www.europrofem.org/02.info/22contri/2.04.en/4en.viol/02en_vio.htm#1.%20A%20NEW%20VISION%20FOR%20AN%20OLD%20ISSU

[Zhade]

477. An illuminating thread!

As a young man, I must confess to some past confusion as to what feminism actually meant in practice.

This thread has been an eye-opener. Not only does it demonstrate some of the important concepts of equality as expressed through feminism, it addresses the issue some have with the perceived "superiority complex" of feminists (a perception I do NOT share).

The OP is not exclusionary. I found it very evocative and representative of the kinds of things women used to go through and could go through again if men and women don't work together to ensure both sexes are treated equally in the world.

Thanks for the thread!

[Tsiyu]

493. And thank YOU for sharing your observations n/t

:yourock:

[skygazer]

495. I just spent over an hour reading this entire thread

Some really great posts in here and some thoughtful comments (as well as some others). Just a few of my own observations -

Discrimination is damaging to everyone - not just those being discriminated against. Some of the most damaging is that which is almost unnoticed, the stuff that is common and everyday. It's so damaging precisely because it's so mundane and ordinary, common, people are used to seeing it and don't think it's anything out of the norm. It becomes a fixture in society so that people feel it's the "correct" or "normal" way to be and that's why it's so crippling because when you question it, you sound like a nut. Like someone who's so paranoid they see danger in the simplest of things. Well, often that's where the greatest problems lie. I remember when I was pregnant with my son, I took my 6 year old daughter with me to a doctor visit one day and when she saw my female doctor, she said, "Mommy, I didn't know a girl could be a doctor."

My doctor was appalled and so was I because she surely hadn't gotten that from me or from my husband. We'd always tried to give our daughters the encouragement to believe they could be whatever they wanted. Even so, she had that perception. Where did it come from? TV, the media, society in general. Ingrained, habitual perceptions. The most dangerous of all because even the most enlightened family is affected by them.

There's a false belief that feminism means hatred of men. There's another that it means women want to be in control of everything and men are to have no control. And there's another that it means women MUST do whatever men do. None of those are accurate.

This is not a battle of men vs women. It's about equality, simple as that. Even now, in my job in a grocery store, I get men who will call me "hon" or talk condescendingly to me. They wouldn't dream of doing so with a male employee. To treat discrimination against women as a thing of the past is a mistake. It's not.

[Tsiyu]

497. Thank you for taking the time to read it all

Most won't so those who contributed here appreciate your gift of time...:grouphug:

And thank you for sharing some of your experiences.

[noiretextatique]

498. common, everyday stuff

i try not to sweat the small stuff, but the last time a grown man called me, a 46 year old woman a girl, i called him a boy...right back at ya. he turned red and probably called me a bitch under his breath, but he never called me girl again. :eyes:
my current supervisor has taken to calling me a smart "girl."
i haven't yet addressed this with him, but i will soon. this is the common, everyday stuff that, try as i might, really does annoy me to no end sometimes. admittedly, i am humorless when it comes to this shit, so if anyone is inclined to point that out...don't.

[FizzFuzz]

504. I got called honey at a music fest

I was sitting under a tree trying not to have heat stroke. A woman park rep shooed me away because I was in a cordoned off area. I stayed there. Apparently she called the "enforcers" or festival staff or whatever you call 'em to talk to me. Right away, the 50something guy calls me honey. I was feeling a little lightheaded, and a little 47 years old, and I don't like rules at the best of times---so I said, "Hi honey, I'm not your honey, honey."

(of course, its not much better being called Ma'am. I'm not sure which is worse)


Heh heheh....they escorted me to the medical tent.

aaaand,
HI there, noiretblu! :hi: