Question: Muslims and the Christian Bible.

[bvar22]

There was a ltte in the Minneapolis Star Tribune today:

Give us the full story

I am sick and tired of hearing about how Americans have abused the Qur'an. We never hear about how Muslims have abused the Bible.

Dale Probasco,

I would like to respond to this letter, but I am no expert on the Muslim Faith. I need to check my facts before I respond.

I am under the impression that the Muslim Faith is based on the foundation of the Old Testament, and that they view Christ as a sacred prophet. The GOD of the Christians is the same GOD of the Muslims. Therefore, the Bible should be a sacred book to the Muslims, and not likely to be abused.

Would someone who is knowledgeable in this matter please respond before I send my Letter?

[lenidog]

1. I heard tales when I was in Saudi Arabia

but I can't confirm any of them but I wouldn't put it past them that the religious police will destroy them if they find them or any other holy book that they find that isn't the Koran.

[blurp]

81. They treat Bibles the way we treat cocaine

Being a smuggler of bibles can get you the death penalty.

"One morning, he had a close call when armed members of the notorious Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice - the religious police, or muttawa - hammered at his front door at 1am, he reported.

Having 400 smuggled Bibles in his room, he said, "That was a crime equal to rape, murder, armed robbery, and in Saudi Arabia you get the same punishment," - the death penalty.

Nalliah said he had earnestly prayed and the men left without entering his home, and described it as a miracle.

Furthermore, Nagi Kheir, spokesman for the American Coptic Association and a veteran campaigner for religious freedom in the Middle East, wrote in an article several years ago that some Christians upon entering Saudi Arabia reported that they have had their personal Bibles taken from them and placed into a paper shredder. The reports were backed up by International Christian Concern in a 2001 report.

In its most recent report on religious freedom around the world, the State Department said, "Customs officials routinely open mail and shipments to search for contraband, including...non-Muslim materials, such as Bibles and religious videotapes," it said. "Such materials are subject to confiscation, although rules appear to be applied arbitrarily."

In addition, the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, an independent watchdog set up under the 1998 International Religious Freedom Act, in a 2003 report on Saudi Arabia said: "Customs officials regularly confiscate Bibles and other religious material when Christian foreign workers arrive at the airport from their home countries initially or return from a vacation."

Inquiries sent to the Saudi Embassy in Washington and the Saudi Information Ministry in Riyadh, about the legality of Bibles and about the shredder claims have not been answered. "

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rodeodance]

6. the Koran is the word incarnate.

[bvar22]

11. Thanks for your response,

but your opinion was less than helpful. I'm not interested in YOUR opinion of the Christian Bible. I need to know how the Muslims view the Bible and the Christian God.

Thank You anyway.

Please stay on topic in this thread! It is an OBJECTIVE Question. I need clinical answers and not flames and prejudice.

[Village Idiot]

45. Again - apologies if you took offense.

Qu'ran is viewed, in the Muslim world, as the LITERAL WORD OF GOD.

The Bible is treated as a holy book, but it is a MAN-MADE (and oft-edited and versioned) holy book, and as such is regarded less religiously...

Read a little regarding the concept of Dhimmitude, and you get a pretty good idea of how peoples of other faiths are regarded in Muslim circles...tolerated, but certainly not equals...

Apologies again for the hyperbole.

[formernaderite]

57. Mohammed pretty much plagiarized the jewish old testament..

changed things here and there, then claimed the jews got the story wrong in the first place. Dontcha know...God spoke to him. I guess when you're the FINAL prophet...you get to make some corrections.

I may sound flippant, but most religions just get on my nerves. If I was ever forced to choose a religion(I'm an atheist) I'd go with something peacefully mindnumbing like Buddhism.

[formernaderite]

58. I should have added...

the whole Qu'ran isn't plagiarized from the jewish old testament...but it's certain he studied that text.

[CJCRANE]

78. It's ironic

that Islam is probably much closer to the original version of Judeo-Christianity than people in the West realize, even down the language and customs (given that Jesus lived in the Middle East and spoke Aramaic which I'm willing to bet is a lot more similar to Arabic than English).

[FreedomAngel82]

18. With the Bible

it's supposivley God passing down information through men. I remember once on the History channel watching a doc on the Bible we know today and how it came to be. According to the Scholars who were interviewed there were a lot of books left out for whatever reason. Also Mary Magedelene had wrote a book as well. It was more then likely left out because she was a woman. I'd love to read that book! The gospel books (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) are four different tales of Jesus. Some things are different but they're all accounts for the same person. The books from Acts to Revelation (minus Revelation) are letters from the people who worked with Jesus (like Paul) to other churches and their accounts of events that happened to them etc. Revelation is a book that is both an encouragment book that your life isn't over here and you can over come death and supposivley end times. I remember watching F911 and you see an Iraqi woman crying in pain after her house was bombed and she was screaming "Allah" which is translated as "God." I'm not sure if we view the same being as God. :shrug:

[CJCRANE]

53. "Allah" translated as God...

Well Jesus spoke Aramaic and the word for God in Aramaic is "Allaha"..

[Tsiyu]

64. Jesus didn't work "with Paul."

Jesus was long dead before Saul- the Jewish Christian-hater and crucifier - became Paul, the convert. just wanted to clear that up....;)

[Pacifist Patriot]

3. Yes, the Muslim faith accepts Jesus as a prophet...

of God. Just not the final prophet. They respect the Bible as an earlier scripture superceded by the Koran which is the literal word of God so they would not be particularly motivated to desecrate it as a sign of disrespect against either Jews or Christians. At least I can think of no instances. It might be like Christians flushing Genesis down the toilet. Makes no sense.

Muslim mythology traces their lineage back to Hagar, Abraham's servant girl.

Early Muslim rulers treated Christians and Jews in their territories with more respect than they did indigenous tribal religions and other sects and cults. Precisely because they were viewed as related "people of the Book."

[FreedomAngel82]

22. I have heard of this

We talked about this last Sunday at my church. How Hagar went seperate from Abraham after she gave him children and they started that line. I remember reading how in Iraq before Saddam was taken out the Christians in the country had religious freedoms and they weren't persecuted or anything like that. When he was taken out and everything started happening they were the first people to leave. I guess because the boarders were open and with Saddam he had kept the boarders better than we do here (which are still pretty open by the way).

[Pacifist Patriot]

33. One of Hussein's ministers was a Christian.

I can't remember which department though.

[phaseolus]

41. Tariq Aziz was the Christian

Sec'y of State??

[lebkuchen]

4. Marching orders?

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=29502

June 4, 2005

What is with the flap over these Quran flushings that has brought out the zealots who drag with them all of their fervor, causing death throughout the Middle East? Why are they so easily whipped into frenzy over something like that?

In only the last 20 years, there have been so many instances of mass Bible burnings and persecution of Christians throughout the so-called tolerant lands of Islam that they have become too numerous to count.

Most Muslims, according to literacy statistics for the region, can’t even read or understand the classical Arabic in which the Quran is written and rely on the often-faulty or agenda-driven translation of the local cleric. My guess is they spend an inordinate amount of time looking for an excuse to accuse the Great Satan on the world’s media stage. I am sick to death of it.

They are able to travel to predominantly Christian countries such as France, Germany and the United States and practice Islam in any way they see fit. Try taking a Bible into Saudi Arabia. You can’t; I suppose some Muslim fanatic might try to burn or flush it.

Has it occurred to anyone that flushing the Quran, if they did, indeed, do that, might have been a technique that yielded excellent intelligence findings about terrorist organizations?

Judging from the current worldwide fanatical Muslim reaction to the alleged flushing, those boys at Guantanamo Bay might just be on to something. Keep up the good work, boys. I am sick to death of the worldwide Muslim double standard. Where is their outrage at their own religious intolerance, or, for that matter, where is ours?

Let’s not even ask why there hasn’t been any outcry from the same Muslim clerics and faithful concerning the beheadings of “infidels” and the daily wanton killings of Iraqi “apostates.” Give it a rest.

Mark Nichols
Camp Buehring, Kuwait

[Bill McBlueState]

15. pot / kettle

Most Muslims, according to literacy statistics for the region, can’t even read or understand the classical Arabic in which the Quran is written and rely on the often-faulty or agenda-driven translation of the local cleric.

Most Christians, according to literacy statistics for the region, can’t even read or understand the Hebrew or Greek in which the Bible is written and rely on the often-faulty or agenda-driven translation of James Dobson.

[lebkuchen]

20. Not to mention...

the works of art lining the aisles, walls and windows of churches in Europe because the bulk of the medieval population was illiterate and had to learn Bible stories from triptychs, frescoes, stained glass and oils on canvas. It doesn't mean followers understood the Biblical story to any lesser degree.

[forgethell]

50. I don't think so.

I think they rely on the King James, the Revised Standard, the New English, the Amplified, and dozens of others, all by reputable scholars, many Jewish or even atheist. All of which will say basically the same thing. I don't even think Dobson has a translation out.

I do not know what kind of versions the Muslims have of their holy scripture, although I possess and have read one English translation.

Still, people who are illiterate must depend on what those that can read tell them, which is very different indeed form reading and thinking for yourself.

[Tsiyu]

65. Focus on the family has

some versions in print: one i know of because my kids received one years ago...

[forgethell]

67. Interesting.

I must check this out. But are you sure it wasn't just a FOF edition of one of the standard translations??? It takes a lot of resources to make a new translation of the bible.

[Tsiyu]

68. It was annotated for children

Hold on, I was just cleaning out and resorting books and put it in the discard pile. ( I haven't done that in a l-o-o-ong time, obviously) Lemme see if I can find it...oops. I lied. It was a Zondervan chidren's NIV I threw in the pile. Must have offloaded the other one...

The other one was based on their cartoon, Odyssey, and was probably as you said an established translation, but as I recall it had cartoons and insets on every page, explaining Dobson and Co.'s interpretation to the Fundy Junior set.

[forgethell]

70. Well, nothing wrong with that.

Their interpretation may be mistaken, of course, but they have a perfect right to explain it and publish it.

I simply have no problems with freedom of speech or freedom of religion. Even if it is something that could be considered 'bigoted' by somebody. The consequences of trying to limit them are simply too awful to imagine, IMO.

The only exception I'm willing to tolerate is incitement to actual and specific violence. 'Hate' is, IMO, too generalized, and more importantly, too subject to interpretation by those in authority at any specific time.

[bvar22]

21. Thanks, Mark

Good Luck in your service. Please keep yourself and those around you safe. I hope you return to your home healthy and in one piece.

Bob
St Paul, MN

[ET Awful]

23. Mr. Nichols is so ill-informed it's pathetic.

Can't bring a bible into Saudi Arabia? BULLSHIT!

He is obviously completely uninformed of the actual religion of Islam.

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. That article is so bad I don't know where to begin.

[blurp]

79. Bibles in Arabic ARE PROHIBITED. You're ill-informed.

Foreigners are allowed to have Bibles in their own language, but owning one in Arabic is tantamount to proselytising, a crime that is punished with a jail sentence.

And don't forget the religious police:

"An institution found in Saudi Arabia is the mutaween, or religious police. The Saudi Mutaween also go by the name of Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice.

Their duties consist of enforcing religious doctrine (Muslim Shari'a law as defined by the Saudi government) and rooting out "Un-Islamic" activities. They have the power to arrest any unrelated males and females caught socializing. They also have the power to ban consumer products and media as "un-Islamic", such as the Barbie dolls, Pokemon games and toys, and various Western musical groups and television shows. The Mutaween of Saudi Arabia recently launched a website where people can anonymously file tips about "un-Islamic" activities in Saudi Arabia."

[Pacifist Patriot]

25. Whoa!

Where does he get his information. A friend of mine lived in Saudi Arabia from 1999-2002. She never once ran into trouble because of being Christian or owning a Bible. Now granted the plural of anecdote is not data, but her one experience contradicts his assertion that no one is allowed to bring a Bible into the country. It is true that evangelism is, um, shall we say, strongly discouraged.

Besides, people are getting the analogy wrong. The Bible and the Koran are not equivalent. The Koran is the Muslim Logos. Sound familiar? It would be more like someone taking a shit on a pile of consecrated communion wafers or giving Jesus a swirly.

I have to agree with the person within the thread who pointed out that two wrongs do not make a right. I don't care if every Muslim in the world has desecrated a Bible at some point in their life. That's no excuse for disrespect and psychological mistreatment.

[lebkuchen]

34. "That's no excuse for disrespect and psychological mistreatment".

especially when one's mission is to win hearts and minds. Think this letter is an indication of how poorly our troops are trained?

That speaks to Rumsfeld's area of "expertise."

[Pacifist Patriot]

39. Indeed.

[The Magistrate]

44. Holding Services For Christian Worship, Though, Ma'am

Is quite problematic there. That the Saudi government practices intolerance as a matter of law is not in question anywhere.

It is true that the Koran is viewed by believers as sacred in a more profound sense than even our fundamentalists view the Bible to be. It seems unlikely, though, that the belief the KOran has been transmitted without change from the otiginal down the centuries could survive the sort of textual criticism and archeological checking that the Bible has received.

[Pacifist Patriot]

48. No doubt.

I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Simply disputing a unilateral assertion made by the author of that article. The Wahabi's are notoriously intolerant even with other forms of Islam. Their tolerance extends only as far as their financial priorities.

The Koran enjoys a static condition as a written document that the Bible doesn't have simply by virtue of historical circumstances.

[ComerPerro]

5. The problem, however, is that the Bible has the New and Old Testament

And Muslims (just as Jews) don't really care what the New Testament says, since its about Jesus. And really, why should they?


A better question would be: Can you provide an example of Muslims desecrating the Bible?


EDIT: moreover, why doesn't the media cover all instances in which the Quran is mishandled by Christians.

I am sure that some rednecks somewhere got together and burned it after 9/11.

Why doesn't the media report that?

[Pacifist Patriot]

9. Jesus appears as a figure in the Koran

and Muslim mythology traces their lineage back to Abraham. The Muslims I know have great respect for Jesus' teachings as recorded in the New Testament even though they do not believe he is the literal Son of God.

[htuttle]

13. I think Islam acknowledges much of the New Testament

They use a different selection of writings than the western bible does, but the stories are by and large the same with some important differences -- especially at the end. For example, I believe Mary Magdalene features more prominently, and there's no 'resurrection' of Jesus in their version, IIRC.

But what the hell do I know. I'm a pagan. :shrug:

[Pacifist Patriot]

Mary, mother of Jesus, is held in some esteem as a matter of fact.

[FreedomAngel82]

27. I have heard

Mary (Magedelene) wrote a book so they could possibly have it. It didn't make it in the Bible we know today at least here in the Western world. I've always wondered of Jesus' ressurrection myself. Christians I know believe it was his actual body that rose, but how could his actual body go into heaven which is in the spiritual realms? From my experience with the spiritual realms it's impossible. :shrug: I am Christian and that's the only thing I wonder. Well the second thing I should say (the first thing is about the flood but that's another topic).

[Pacifist Patriot]

30. There is a gnostic gospel attributed to Mary of Magdala...

Prof. King of Harvard wrote an excellent book which provides both a translation and substantial commentary. No scholars believe that she actually wrote it though. It uses her name to lend authenticity to some gnostic teachings, or purportedly gnostic. They are a little different.

[FreedomAngel82]

32. Interesting

Maybe she didn't know how to write and had someone do it for her? :shrug: I wish I could read that though. She's always been one of my favorite's in the Bible.

[Pacifist Patriot]

35. It was written in the second century.

Unfortunately the original manuscript is badly damaged and there are many gaps. It is quite interesting. Peter comes out looking like the petulant bully the canonical scriptures just hint at.

[Dorian Gray]

87. Muhammed

was greatly influenced by the Gospel of Luke, supposedly the only Gospel that he had access to. That gospel speaks less of Jesus' Godhood, and more of him as a man, hence His position as prophet in the Koran.

[Toots]

7. Who cares, does not justify it no matter what.

The US is holding people captive and abusing them physically and mentally. There is no justification for this. It does not matter if they have done similar things. Two wrongs do not make a right. It is wrong and True Americans know that. I am just amazed at how many Americans do not know the difference between right and wrong.

[Pacifist Patriot]

10. That's it right there.

Tit for tat shouldn't be a factor. Wrong is wrong.

[bvar22]

17. I agree with your belief.

Though in my response letterr, I would like to focus on a little known fact in the US, Christians and Muslims pray to the Same God.
I am attempting to verify that this is indeed true.

[Karenina]

51. YES, it is.

There are many languages in this world and they often use different words and alphabets to describe the same thing. For example, Fahrrad in German = bicycle. Encre in French = ink. Samba? Well, we ALL know what that means!!! (Where's the DJ?) ;-) Allah is simply a word that means G_d. It refers to the deity of Abraham, whom the "people of the book" worship. Those "people" are Jews, Christians and Muslims.

I am SO PLEASED you've put this question out here.

[FreedomAngel82]

31. Exactly

I agree too. You should be able to take the higher road. I doubt Jesus would even spit on their book. It's so disgusting.

[Bill McBlueState]

8. maybe try a different approach

Instead of "Muslims don't abuse the Bible" try this:

Muslims may or may not have abused the Bible at some point in the 1400-year history of their religion. However, Muslims are not in charge of an economic superpower that currently runs a secretive detention camp full of Christians. Were that the case, we would want the media to be diligent in reporting any potential abuse at that camp.

Since Christians are in charge of an economic superpower that currently runs a detention camp full of Muslims, we want the media to tell us the whole story.

The issue isn't some kind of "they did it first" finger-pointing exercise. It's whether the media should be expected to serve as a check on government power, or whether they should conspire to filter the news in such a way that keeps Dale Probasco happy.

[Pacifist Patriot]

12. Another excellent point.

[bvar22]

19. Yes, good point.

Thanks. I hadnh't thought of that approach.

[formernaderite]

59. Though Gitmo is abhorrent...I couldn't give a rats ass

what they do with some "holy" book. I don't care that I'm insensitive, what a waste of time. When did the government get involved in religion? Sorry, I know the answer in....2000, the year our lord bush was selected.

No prisoner of any religious mental persuasion should be supported in that way. Heck, if they're all so religious, they must have their holy book memorized by now.

[GarySeven]

14. Here's what we Christians think of our Holy Scripture:

http://in-souls.com/

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. In the Muslim world, that would be a terrible insult and sacrilege.

Here, it's just sad.

[CJCRANE]

74. But just imagine...

what if the Disciples had written down Jesus' teachings word for word in the original Aramaic and a copy of the those teachings had survived unchanged for 2000 years...

How would devout Christians view that book, i.e. the EXACT words of Christ/God?

Imagining that scenario might give some a clue as to how devout muslims see the Quran.

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. Muslims revere the Bible (OT and NT) too

To the editor:

About abusing the Qur'an. Very disturbing to any Muslim (which I am), Christian or Jew (Hindu or Buddhist).

But Christians and Jews, labeled in the Qur'an as the "People of the Book," don't have to fear the worst - that the Muslims will flush their holy book, the Bible or the Torah, down the toilet just to be mean. Muslims, not even the most hateful of the bunch would ever do that. I guarantee it. Why?

Because Muslims believe in the Bible, the Ten Commandments, the Psalms of David, the Gospel of Jesus. Believing in one God, the Books of that one God (revelation), the Prophets of that God, the Angels, and the Day of Judgment, are the five articles of faith in Islam. So, no. The unimaginable, no matter how mean-spirited, barbaric, or ignorant the West (following the leadership of GW Bush) persists on being, we can all rest assured, the worst won't happen.
Mary Lahaj
M.S. Islamic Studies
Boxborough

http://www2.townonline.com/acton/opinion/view.bg?articleid=254342

[ieoeja]

54. The worst won't happen.

You do realize that people are going to read that LTTE and exclaim, "the worst won't happen? So flushing a book is worse than, say, blowing up a the WTC?!?"

[Squeech]

24. People of the Book

That's how Muslims refer to *all* of the monotheistic faiths that grew out of the Middle East: the Jews and Christians as well as themselves.

Their idea is that, just as Christians believe that Jesus was sent by God with a new revelation to update the Old Testament, Muslims believe the Koran was a further revelation given to Mohammed.

Why the Koran is an object of reverence (and why flushing it down the toilet is a sacrilege) is that the words themselves are sacred. Unlike the miraculous underpinnings of Christianity (virgin birth, the resurrection of Jesus), the Koran is its own miracle: a camel driver of little education and no particular distinction suddenly began to speak in erudite, gorgeously poetic Arabic. One reason why you're supposed to read the Koran in the original language is that it's supposed to be the most refined poetry in existence.

There are historical connections too. The Arabs consider themselves descendents of the same Abraham as the Hebrews, but where the Jews chart their lineage through the further patriarchs Isaac and Jacob, the Arabs claim theirs through Ishmael, the son Abraham begat on his concubine Hagar. (Interestingly, Hagar is the first woman since Eve that God speaks to directly. He communicates with Sarah via angels.)

To answer your immediate question, Muslims don't consider the Bible at the same level as the Koran, but they don't reject it either.

[FreedomAngel82]

38. That is right

I didn't realize that about Hager but you're right. I wonder why God didn't directly talk to Sara. Maybe she didn't have enough faith or something. I don't know.

[Squeech]

43. Exactly

She didn't have enough faith.

Angels visited her and Abraham in their tent in the desert. They repeated the promise to Abraham that he would found a great nation. She said she was way too old to have a child, and they insisted that she would, and she laughed. The (Hebrew) word the Bible uses is "yitzchak" (which is actually the future form-- one of those weird conventions of Biblical Hebrew, it often tells stories in the future tense). And when she does in fact bear a son, she remembers how she laughed and names him "Yitzchak," which we render as "Isaac."

[davepc]

29. Muslim bigots are no different then Christian bigots

Bigots don't respect other peoples point of view or sacred books.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/004/22.34.html

Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar made the declaration over Radio Shariat, explaining that such an action is required by the strict interpretation of Islamic law enforced under Taliban rule. The Taliban controls roughly 90 percent of Afghanistan. Omar also specified that "any non-Muslim found trying to win converts will also be killed," according to an Associated Press report on the broadcast.

"It is seen that enemies of the sacred religion of Islam are making efforts throughout the world to eliminate this pure religion," the Taliban leader said. Omar did not elaborate, except to declare that "numerous plots" had been uncovered to corrupt Islam, and that some Afghans had converted for "material benefits."

Senior Taliban spokesman Abdul Hai Mutmain claimed that "certain foreigners" in the country were working secretly to convert Afghans to Christianity. "There are programs by some agencies inside and outside Afghanistan to do this," Mutmain said. He did not identify any organizations by name.

The edict condemned those professing either Christianity or Judaism, adding that anyone seen "distributing their religious literature, or making publicity in their interest, will be condemned to death."

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - International aid workers kept a low profile Tuesday, as the hardline Islamic Taliban investigated charges that eight jailed foreigners propagated Christianity, a crime punishable by death in Afghanistan.

In the war-ruined capital, Kabul, aid workers said they fear their jobs, often difficult and dangerous as it is, could become even more so if the workers with the Christian-based Shelter Now International are found guilty of trying to convert Muslims to Christianity.

The organization's office was sealed and 24 of its workers - including two U.S. citizens, four Germans and two Australians - were arrested last weekend for allegedly showing films on Christianity and distributing religious cassettes to Afghans in an attempt to convert them from Islam.

...

The Taliban also say they confiscated religious material, including cassettes and books, from the office of Shelter Now International, which is run by the German-based Vision for Asia.

http://www.rawa.org/aid.htm



I've also heard (but am in no position to confirm) that the Saudi Religious police are no fans of the bible either.


Anyways, Muslim holy book "abuse" is no justification for Christian holy book "abuse" and visa versa.

[ET Awful]

36. They are not referring to the Bible, they are referring to bible tracts

and other materials. The Bible is a revered book in Islam.

They are referring to sermons on cassette, books which are designed to convert to Christianity, etc.

The Bible itself is revered.

[blurp]

80. The Bible in Arabic is prohibited and will get you put in jail or deported

Having a bible written in Arabic is considered proselytizing, a crime that is punished with a jail sentence.

[Pacifist Patriot]

37. True. And like the growing split between

fundamentalist Christianity and mainstream Christianity, most Muslims do not consider the Taliban to be members of their own faith. It gets VERY complicated.

[FreedomAngel82]

40. Yep

They're all the same when it comes to bigotry. This guy sounds like our verison of James Dobson or Randall Terry. The only thing that makes me personally nervous is trying to convert someone. Who am I to tell them what they believe is wrong? My beliefs are my beliefs. If someone is curious and asks question's then I'd be happy to reply but it makes me nervous of trying to convert someone from what they believe. :\

[davepc]

46. Personal discomfort with missionaries seeking converts is one thing

Mandatory Death sentences for talking to people about, and giving them literature (which includes supposedly 'revered' holy books) about your faith is something else.

In both cases (gitmo and pre-9/11 Afghanistan) the respective government was waging war on peoples religious beliefs and the vessels used to transmit those beliefs.

The Taliban was trying to enforce one religion on everyone while the US government was just trying to piss off the POW's.

Neither case was right.

[Village Idiot]

42. Apologies if earlier post offended.

It was meant to indicate that Muslims believe the Qu'ran is the LITERAL WORD of God. The Bible is man-made.

I suppose the hyperbole was a little too extreme...apologies again to our Xian friends...

[T-Jeff_Dem]

47. The sources are, well . . . not exactly in the DU mainstream, but

here is some stuff I gleaned quickly from a quick google search using the words 'bible desecration' ... for what it's worth. pls don't slam me on the sources, I'm just trying to show where some of this info. is coming from and that there are sources that 'bvar22' may have to be prepared to respond to. I do not vouch for their veracity.
---------------
http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2005/05/23/National/What-About.Bible.Desecration.By.Saudis-953649.shtml
What about Bible desecration by Saudis?
By Patrick Goodenough

May 23, 2005

(CNSNews.com) -- A U.S.-based think tank critical of the Saudi government has added its voice to allegations that authorities in the kingdom routinely destroy Bibles.

"As a matter of official policy, the government either incinerates or dumps Bibles, crosses and other Christian paraphernalia," the Saudi Institute said in an article posted on its website.
---------------
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44324

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
While Muslims have responded with deadly outrage to the now-retracted report by Newsweek of alleged Quran desecration by U.S. interrogators, there was little outcry three years ago when Islamic terrorists holed up in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity reportedly used the Bible as toilet paper.

[forgethell]

49. You'd think that, wouldn't you?

But the Saudis won't even let the Bible into their country. Google "Saudi bible confiscate" and look around a little.

Also, the Muslims claim they worship the same god as the Christians and the Jews, but most Christians certainly do not claim to worship the same god as the Muslims. I guess a lot of it is semantics. Only, if the Muslims are correct correct in their views, the Christians are going to hell, and if the Christians are correct, the Muslims are. I refer, of course, to the historically orthodox versions of these respective beliefs, and not the modern enlightened ones.

[CJCRANE]

52. Not necessarily:

"And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit."(Qur'an 29:46)

Also, Muslims believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and ascended to heaven and will return in the Second Coming to bring peace to the world. Even the "modest" dress code for muslim women is similar to the codes of strict Jews and early Christians. The beliefs are pretty similar if you get past the language barrier.

[Karenina]

55. THANK YOU for that!

:kick:

[forgethell]

62. Except that

Christians believe that Jesus was oneof the three persons of the Trinity; Muslims do not. Christians believe that you mus call on the name of Jesus to be saved. The Muslims believe you must say, "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is His prophet" to be a Muslim, basically the only way to enter Paradise. Islam was founded by a warrior, you justified it in his holy scriptures and was inititally spread by war. Christianity was founded by a teacher and a man of peace. It was initially spread by evangelization (as it still is). While after it became the offical religion of the Roman Empire, yes,it was spread by the sword, there is nothing in Christian scripture to support that, as there is in the Koran.

Pretty different, I would say.

[CJCRANE]

72. I disagree -

Islam is not that different from Judeo-Christianity (i.e. Christians who also believe in the Old Testament), there are very similar moral laws as they are based on the same ancient stories (not that I gree with them myself).

Also in Islamic doctrine being a muslim is not necessarily the only way to enter Paradise, there are quotes in the Koran that imply that good Christians and Jews too will go to heaven (as they follow basically the same laws and same God).

I have relatives on both sides, and also muslim relatives who have married Christians (+ my dad is Muslim and my mother Catholic) so I know from experience that all muslims don't think that all Christians are going to hell.

[forgethell]

85. On the other hand,

Christians do not believe that good works are sufficient to get one into Heaven. Only faith in Christ's redeeming sacrifice, and the acceptance of His gift of free salvation will do that. By this standard, and I apologize if you are offended but this is the belief of many Christians, no Muslims are going to Heaven. Of course, the Christians could be wrong, and the Muslims right. I guess we'll know when we get there.

[CJCRANE]

88. You're right

but I personally believe that most Christians today (and Muslims for that matter) do not understand the spirit of their religion in its totality or follow the original intentions of their founders.

[Igel]

66. But not crucified, and many believe

that Jesus spoke of Muhammed's coming.

Moreover, many teachers also say that both early Christians and early Jews willfully warped the teachings of Moses and Jesus, who taught Islam. "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revelaed to you" does not necessarily imply that "We believe that what you believe is what was revealed to you, and we also believe that it is true." It does for some, and doesn't for others.

Posting after the majority of posters to this thread, the sheer number of simplistic generalizations amazes me. There is no single "Islam", any more than there is a single "Christianity", if you base your definitions on believers' behavior and the sets of doctrines that ar extant. Conversely, if there's a single Christianity and single Islam, I'm fairly sure I have yet to actually meet a Christian or Muslim.

Islam was early labelled as a Christian heresy.

A more important question is why the idea of a Hamas "activist" holding a Qur'an is accepted in the Islamic world, but a US soldier touching a Qur'an is considered--by some--as defilement.

[CJCRANE]

73. True.

That's why I personally prefer secular human rights as they are somewhat easier to interpret than ancient texts.

[CJCRANE]

76. "Islam was early labelled as a Christian heresy".

An example of the similarity is that bells were used to call the faithful to prayer initially, it was only later on that the idea of the muezzin came about.

[many a good man]

56. Muslims and Christians both worship the God of Abraham

Fact.

Jesus, known as Issa, is recognized as a great teacher or prophet. However Muslims deny that he was a deity.

[CJCRANE]

60. In fact

if you really want to delve into it there were actually early forms of Christianity which also believed that Jesus was a prophet not a god, and it may have been these remnants of early Christianity that influenced Mohammed. (It wasn't until the Creed of Nicea in 325 AD that the Roman church formalized the idea of the divinity of Jesus in the Trinity).

[forgethell]

83. Still, Paul

wrote about it pretty early.

[rainbow4321]

61. Church with anti-Quran sign quits Southern Baptists

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/religion/stories/061105dnnatchurch.135ceab73.html

A church whose pastor was criticized last month for displaying a sign calling for the Quran to be flushed has withdrawn from the Southern Baptist Convention.

Pastor Creighton Lovelace did not immediately return calls Friday, but in a phone message left at his church in Forest City, about 65 miles west of Charlotte, he identified it as Danieltown Independent Baptist Church rather than Danieltown Baptist Church.

Mr. Lovelace this week told the Biblical Recorder, the journal of the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina, that criticism from fellow Baptists over the sign was part of the reason the 55-member church voted to withdraw from the state and Southern Baptist conventions.

[forgethell]

63. That's what I l ike about Baptists.

If you disagree, you don't have to stay. If you can't find a convention you can agree with, you can be indiependent. If you, and enough of your fellow church members don't like the church, say the pastor, you can vote him out, or split off and form another Baptist church.

They may n ot have a totally progressive attitude in every case, although you might be surprised, but by golly, they believe in freedom of religion.

[Puzzler]

69. Speaking of Christ...

A few years ago, a devout Muslim friend of mine told me that he found it offensive when people swore using Christ's name (or disparaged Christ). He said the reason was that Christ was a Holy Prophet.

-P

[forgethell]

82. And the point is?

In orthodox (small 'o') Christian theology, saying Christ was just a prophet would be blasphemy, or at the least, heresy.

[earthmama]

89. I am in Charlotte ...

this is a HUGE topic here.

[LynnTheDem]

71. Wow, I didn't know Muslims have a concentration camp where due process

is denied to the Americans being indefinitely held and tortured there.

And these Muslims at the concentration camp are abusing the American prisoners' bibles??!

:wow:

:eyes:

[forgethell]

84. They don't have

concentration camps because they behead their prisoners. That's the humane way to take care of the problen. :sarcasm:

[CJCRANE]

90. They let some of them go too...

[forgethell]

91. So have we.

And, of course, a major difference is that most of our prisoners were captured on the battlefield.

[ck4829]

75. This Muslim can tell you what I do

I am a Convert to Islam and I still keep a copy of the Bible on my bookshelf which I do pull out and read sometimes.

[cestpaspossible]

77. An ex-Mormon friend of mine uses the Book of Mormon as TP.

Is that wrong?

[Deep13]

86. We can't control what others do ...

... but we can control our own behavior. It is simply bad policy to piss off 1/5 of the world by desecrating its holy book.