A Question From a Non-White, Non Religious DUer.........

[BronxBoy]

Just about every forum on DU for the past day or so has been filled with threads regarding Howard Dean's statements about White Christians and the Republican party. I have read many well thought out posts as to whether his comments were a good or bad thing, both pro and con.

I'm not into organized religion and I'm not White. So Dean's statements to me were like "yeah, the republicans are White and Christian, So what?" But then again, I'm Black and not into religion so my race and religion (or lack thereof) are not being put out there in a manner that I might have concerns about.

Bu Dean's statements brought something else to the table for me. One of the most important battles being fought in this country right now is one that really gets little attention and that is the battle for what version of Christianity is being promoted in this country. With all due respect to people of other faiths, agnostics, atheists, and people who don't give a shit and would rather drink piss than get involved with religion, most people in this country identify themselves as believing in some form of the Christian faith. And due to the present demographics of the country, most people who identify themselves as Christian are White.

For me, the deeper issue with what Dean said is not that most Republicans are White Christians, it's that most Republicans who are White and Christian are practicing a hateful, corrupted form of the faith. Everyone hear has read one of the many "DU bashes Christians" threads. I generally avoid them like the plague. But the few that I have spent a little time reading showed me that there are DUers who are both deeply committed to there faith and liberal. And that leads me to my question

I really feel that one of the critical points in determining whether good people take back this country or whether we sink deeper into the muck, will be what version of Christianity will be spread and accepted by the masses. There seems to be a war going on between the perception of Christ's teaching as promulgated by the CC and the Focus on the Family and by liberal Christians. And quite frankly, the nice liberal Christians seemed to be getting their clocks cleaned. I never see or hear any organized responses to the CC and FOTH by liberal White Christian organizations. It seems that the national standard for defining a true Christian is being set by Bill Frist, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.

Black and Hispanic Christians are discounted by these folks. Can you imagine if Jesse Jackson had said what Dean said? Al Sharpton said this and more and he is dismissed as a Black demagogue. These issues cannot initially be broached by us if there is to be a serious discussion of these issues. It's up to you I think to bring the true relevance of Christ's teaching into the public purview. How are you going to do it? Is there currently a movement that can counter these assholes on the right? Is it the media and their control by the right? Do they have better organization? What can you do to counter it? Is there a White, Christian,a Liberal organization that can effectively counter the views of the intolerant right?

I've read many a post where some very true blue DUers were deeply offended by posts they read here that blasted Christians. But at the same time, a lot of people's perception of Christianity is being influenced by seeing that asshole Fred Phelps show up at the funeral of a gay man that had been beaten to death and heckle and harass the mourners. I hate to bring up the race card but it's going to take White Christians to initially start to strongly counter these jerks and let people know that the majority of Christians may be White, but they are also Black, Hispanic and, if they remain true to their faith, undeniably liberal.

I'll be quiet now.

[acmavm]

1. His mistake was calling the white Christians. They are white pseudo-

Christians. Jesus wouldn't touch most of these people with a ten for pole. Or twenty, or thirty, etc.

[BronxBoy]

3. Yeah I know

But where is the Christian liberal prescence that is backing him up with the appropriate talking points?

[undeterred]

5. There is a Christian liberal presence in every Christian denomination

in America. It doesn not operate in the same way that the right wing Christians do, because its values and beliefs and relationship to culture are not the same. When liberal Christian leaders speak out the conservative press does not pay attention to it.

There is a Christian liberal presence at DU and you've already seen how they're treated.

[BronxBoy]

12. Can you elaborate

without turning the thread into a flamefest? I am serious when I say that I don't tend to read the religioud threads too much. But I am really interested to know what the hell is going on with the religious wars here as DUer

I mean Religious or not, aren't we after the same things?

And is there anyway to make the media pay attention to a liberal Christain point of view?

Or are we too far gone?

[Just Me]

20. I'm calling manipulation when I see it. The "alert" button is my friend!!

[BronxBoy]

41. Sorry I didn't answer you earlier.....

What the fuck are you talking about?

[Just Me]

52. Emotional blackmail. Emotional manipulation. I am an expert *LOL*.

Having been subjected to it and carefully tracking those who utilize it, I call it when I see it. }(

[BronxBoy]

58. Umm

I'm pretty stupid. Is this satire or are you totally fucking nuts?

[Karenina]

40. Get up to speed on

Christian Reconstructionism.

[BronxBoy]

44. Can you give me a link or something?

[I Have A Dream]

69. BronxBoy, I'm confused also by what the person's trying to say. n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

110. You're not alone. n/t

[GreenArrow]

112. try this one

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5646.htm

[KittyWampus]

2. Thanks, I Kiss You Full On The Mouth. You Hit The Nail Head On While Dean

missed the mark.

Note- Dean was in the ballpark but struck out.

If he had said 'extremist' white christians, I'd be lauding him and his comment.

Extremist, white Christian puts a stake right through their hate-filled faux Christian hearts.

[BronxBoy]

4. Thanks

for the friendly kiss. But we all know they are facists but how do you propose that White liberal Christians get their message out there?

[KittyWampus]

7. By Joining With Liberal Jews, Muslims, Buddhist etc.

It is happening now, slowly.

IMO, since we don't wear religion on our sleeves, we've been slow to stand up and be counted.

Terri Schiavo's long death and the extremist christians' behavior may have been the tipping point.

[I Have A Dream]

6. This is a very good post -- I've wondered the same things.

It will be really interesting to see what is said here. I just don't understand how the right, in general, always seems to be one step ahead of us. The only explanation that I can think of is that they have control of the media.

We have a much harder time since we have to scream to have our voices heard, and then when we do, they make us out to be extremists, which is so very ironic given the fact that we're trying to STOP religious extremists.



(Edited to fix typo.)

[BronxBoy]

16. Do you think it's because....

the true teachings of Christ any the antithesis of what these people practice? How do you effectively fight them and still remain true to your faith?

[GreenArrow]

55. the answer to the first question is yes.

I don't know the answer to the second part, but it can't involve using the techniques used by the Christo-fascists. I believe ultimately their own pride and ambition will be their downfall. There is little in either practice or preaching in the loud fundamentalist version of Christianity that resembles any thing Jesus taught. If Jesus returned today, fake Christians would be the first in line to hang him back on the cross...which may prove to be the fate of Christians on the left.

[BronxBoy]

60. Thank you for your honest answer...

I agree. And herein lies our dilemma.

Sometimes when you think about it really deeply.......When you try to reconcile your beliefs with the political realities in this country, you can come to the conclusion that good christians will perish.

That's a very disturbing thought.

Jesus died on the cross, is this the end of the road for liberal christians?

What do you think? I don't read the bible or anything, so I am SO ignorant about this stuff

BB

[GreenArrow]

63. it's a nice irony

The ones who most loudly identify themselves as Christians and yammer on about being persecuted are themselves the persecutors. Many, if not most of these people don't have faith, they have certainty. They can rationalize any act, no matter how atrocious, as God's will, when all they are really doing is justifying their own fears and prejudices.

And I do fear that there are certain segments of the population, Liberal Christians among them, who have fallen afoul of them.

FWIW, I don't believe the Bible is God's only way, or even the best way, of communicating with us, but I do find it useful to be familiar with it. All of creation is God's Bible, and a much better book, IMO.

[rateyes]

71. Exactly!

It's "not faith, it's certainty"---and they, IMO, are certainly mistaken. They do justify the ugliest things in the name of God and their religion---it's holy war in their minds. The Muslims would call it "jihad." Although, as I understand Islam (not an expert), Jihad of the mind---(jihad means struggle)--is the greatest jihad. Not about violence at all. Fundamentalists can be found in every religion.

[rateyes]

66. Trying not to sound O.R. (overly religious)..

because I can't stand to hear fundamentalists use pious words, when I know they are anything but pious----Jesus did say something about "taking up your own cross." People will crucify you...but, the point of Christianity is that there is a resurrection. Truth, in the end, will win out. The fundies THINK they know the truth---but, IMHO, haven't even scratched the surface.

[I Have A Dream]

67. I try to take comfort in the knowledge that I'm on the correct side.

I'm speaking spiritually here, but life, to me, is about learning. To me, this is why we came here. If things are too easy, one doesn't learn much; life is fun and enjoyable, but it's really easy to stagnate and not really grow much from the time that we're born to the time that we die.

Almost everything that I've learned in my life was during a time of hardship. (It really does seem true that what doesn't kill us usually makes us stronger.) However, we just have to make sure that our country doesn't get "killed" so that it can come out stronger in the end also.

Although I believe that we eventually can permanently get our country back on the correct course, this trial really does force each of us to make difficult decisions about what's important in our lives. Even if a person chooses not to get involved, he/she has made a decision to not be part of the solution. My guess is that we have many, many more people who are involved in the political process than we had before Bush et al. took control. This is good news for our country.

In the end, when our country gets through this time of darkness, I believe that we'll have a stronger country because of what we're going through. This has also taught me (and my guess many others on the left) that we can never take our current rights for granted.

I've gotten to the end of what I wanted to say, and I realize that I haven't really answered any of your questions. However, I"m not "religious". ("Religious" and "spiritual" are VERY, VERY different to me.) I hope that I've added something with what I've said.

[BronxBoy]

88. And as it is with most things in life...

it is about the journey, isn't it Dream?

I'm middle aged and when you get to be my age, you begin to look behind you as well as ahead. A deep devotion to one's faith, no matter what it may be, means that you intensely believe that one must travel the path placed before you in your life. And that for every stretch of road travelled in the dark, hopefully we'll walk some in the light

[ChiciB1]

8. I'm White, A Female... And Non-Christian

I delve more into Sprituality. Karma, etc. What you put out you get back.

I enjoyed reading your post.

[I Have A Dream]

10. I'm with you, ChiciB1. n/t

[ChiciB1]

25. Wonderful!

I'm pretty happy about my beliefs. I figure if I can SEE something such as the trees, the grass, the moon and the stars, it's more realistic.

I've never seen God, even though I was raised in a VERY devout CATHOLIC family! I will say that I "searched" for some time and don't know the REAL answer. But then I'm not sure anyone does.

I try not to lie, cheat or steal. And I sincerely care about what happens to the human race. All people of the human race!

But I DO SPEED in my car. Heavy foot syndrome!

[BronxBoy]

29. Don't speed ChiciB1.......

Don't speed.

I know what you mean though about Karma and how things go around and come around.

Without going into to much detail, there was a period in my life where I was in a really dark and dangerous place. I was never seriously into religon. But I always had a belief that you should always treat people with as much respect as you could at the time.

When I finally made it back to the light and I look back at some of the situations that I was in, I really believe that my beliefs kept me alive.

Good Karma is good

:bounce:

[ChiciB1]

43. I'll KICK To That.... n/t

[I Have A Dream]

34. My experiences were similar...

I was always longing for something, but mainstream religion just felt so very wrong. I tried Evangelical Christianity in college. (I was even in Campus Crusade for Christ, which is very conservative.) During that time, I felt as though something was sitting on my chest.

It wasn't until I made the decision to no longer allow religion to control me that I felt freed. I am very spiritual but not at all religious.

Even during my Evangelical Christian experiment, I was a liberal. I feel that people on the left need to be able to question things. This is really frowned upon in Evangelical Christianity. Any time you question something, you're told that Satan put those thoughts into your head. That's their answer to everything, at least in my experience. You're not even allowed to trust your heart because Satan can control you through your emotions also, according to them.

I believe in reincarnation and karma. To me, it's very easy to live my life with integrity when I allow my heart to lead my life.

One thing that I do have to say is that I really do respect the person that Jesus was. (I do believe that he existed -- I just don't think that he died to save my soul from eternal damnation.) If only Christianity really was based upon Jesus...

[ChiciB1]

42. Yes... I've Had The Same Experience With The Satan

thing. I had a friend who was born on the same day as I, her father was born on the same day as my father was, she was the fifth kid out of six and so am I. And we were both born in PA.

She got involved with the same type of Christianity and she was ALWAYS preaching to me. I told her I had done it already. Her response was... Well, if I'm right what do you think will happen to you??

We parted ways for about 5 years, then she contacted me and said her daughter had gotten molested by the Preacher. I told her it could happen anywhere, not only in church. Then she said "why didn't you try harder to keep me from getting involved"? Very strange. I did try to explain numerous times, but sometimes when you're caught up in this, it's something you NEED in your life. I said as much to her.

Anyway, we've since mended our friendship, but it was very strained. If you have strong beliefs, don't PUSH it on others, that's all I ask. I have no problem until then.

[I Have A Dream]

11. Self deleted (somehow got duplicate) n/t

[rateyes]

9. Being a liberal white Christian myself,

I would like to refer you to the site:

www.sojourners.com

and, ask you to read the book: "God's Politics, Why the Right Gets it Wrong, and the Left Doesn't Get It," by Jim Wallis. It's a best seller. Wallis is a little further right than I am, but he makes a coherent argument.

I, for one, am sick and tired--because I am a Christian, of being stereotyped as being like Falwell and Robertson and Dobson and people like that. It's hard to overcome, and I find that people are amazed that one can be a Christian and a Democrat.

[BronxBoy]

14. Thanks

Saved it and will read it later.

It seems to me that the perception of White Christians are the same as that of the Democratice party. Soft, lovey dovey.

But the teachings of Christ was gentle, right?

[Just Me]

18. Christ was powerful.

He was powerful because he took a stand for human potential against those who abused humanity for their own purposes.

That's hardly, "soft, lovey dovey".

Muhammad was also a powerful advocate for human potential.

[BronxBoy]

23. Sorry

poor choice of words.

What I was trying to express was that Christ's approach to life was similar to that of a true liberal and that approach has been increasingly attacked as "wimpy"

So I guess my question is does our modern political evironment make it unable to allow liberal Christians to fight aggressively and be true to their faith

edited for: vodka grammar

[rateyes]

19. Gentle, yes, but

also stood up for justice. When the moneychangers were keeping God-fearing Gentiles from praying in the only place in the Temple they were allowed to go into, Jesus drove them out with a whip.

The main message of Jesus, upon which he said every other commandment of God hung, was to Love God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Which is why it makes me wonder why RW Christians are so much more concerned with posting the 10 commandments in a courthouse, rather than those two commandments of love in their hearts. Honestly, some of the most hateful things I've ever heard has come from the mouths of "Christians" like Falwell, etc. Don't understand it.

Edit: The 10 Commandments never fed a hungry child, or sheltered the homeless, or visited a prison--something which Jesus would advocate.

[GreenArrow]

56. "some of the most hateful things I've ever heard

has come from the mouths of "Christians" like Falwell, etc. Don't understand it."

It's easy to understand -- think "wolves in sheeps clothing". They are predators and destroyers. Misery loves company, and their mission is to bring everyone down with them. They are life haters and necrophiles.

[rateyes]

62. Yeah, I guess I do understand it...

just wish I didn't.

[GreenArrow]

77. yes, it isn't real pleasant to think about

but remember, a lot of people are being used. They are looking for shepards and have fallen in with wolves. They honestly don't know any better. People like Falwell and Robertson, James Dobson, and so on, know better. They know exactly what they are doing.

[Just Me]

15. Sojourners are awesome! So's the Interfaith Alliance.

:hug: Falwell/Robertson/Dobson are the corporateers of Christianity in violation of Christ's vision. Their influence will be not only short-lived but also another spot of disgrace.

[rateyes]

22. Oddly enough..

although I'm Baptist, I like what I'm seeing from the United Church of Christ. It's amazing to me that the networks refused to run their commercials because they were too controversial in their acceptance of gays.

[hippywife]

96. Second that!

http://www.interfaithalliance.org/site/pp.asp?c=8dJIIWMCE&b=447561

We (Christian liberals) need to be doing anything we can to support and further the message of organizations like this.

[Straight Shooter]

26. "I find that people are amazed that one can be a Christian and a Democrat"

Personally, I'm totally flabbergasted that one can be a Christian and a Republican.

AFAIC, Jesus was a liberal. If I were going to follow Jesus, would I not then be a liberal by his example?

I'm not religious, but I'm definitely live and let live, and the Repubs are taking it too far. I see photos of Muslims praying en masse, which is fine for their religion if it's their choice. But it gives me the willies to think that the fanatical right wing would prefer that America could be like that, every day at a certain time we must stop what we're doing and bow our head and pray.

[rateyes]

31. Agreed!

You've hit the nail on the head. Faith (any faith) should be chosen, not forced on someone. That's why I am so disgusted when I read the story of one of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib being beaten and tortured until he uttered the phrase "I renounce Allah (which, BTW, is simply the Arabic word for God--Arab Christians pray to Allah)---and accept Jesus as my Savior and Lord.

You would think that Christians would (as I have) be outraged at that and say to the world "it's unacceptable." Who Would Jesus Torture? And, yet, a poll in these parts--(buckle of the Bible Belt) showed a majority saying that torture should be an option?!!!

You certainly didn't hear Dobson condemn it, did you? He's a hypocrite.

[abluelady]

111. I Know A Secret

There are two liberal, progessive ministers in my town. Don't tell anyone!

[Straight Shooter]

113. You live in a big "town." I bet there are more than two.

Your secret is safe. Welcome to DU :hi:

[Just Me]

13. It sucks, big time, that the extremist profiteering cabal of greed,...

,...is in power. They are seriously pulling us ALL down in many respects.

Our common mission is to stay focused on the extremists and REFUSE all distractions from the extremists.

FOCUS.

We MUST stay focused on that tight cabal that gains from delivering pain.

[immoderate]

17. Dean is right. It's how you read it.

The Republicans are a party of white Christians. People around here are Christians. See the difference?

Dean could have said racist Christians, but Republicans would deny it and, as racism, at least overt racism, is not acceptably polite, Christianity is their vehicle to accomplish their aims.

Homophobia is becoming similarly unacceptable so "defense of marriage" becomes the vehicle for that hatred.

By the way, I am white (to most people) and not Christian. I like Christians just fine, but I can do without "white Christians."

--IMM

[BronxBoy]

21. Yeah....

I see it.

But you don't think that some White Christians might take offense at that?

The Republicans are a party of white Christians. People around here are Christians. See the difference?

Yeah I do and how do we get that message out there?

[immoderate]

27. I'm really glad you see that.

I hoped I wouldn't be misunderstood. I'll say it differently. I'm white, but I don't want to be a white person, I want to be a person.

I wish I had a good answer for you. You especially will know that people can be racist without knowing, and even while thinking they're serving some higher purpose. People don't realize how disgusting they are when they say things like, "I'm not against black people, I'm just in favor of my own race," when they should know that the only race is the human race.

But it's good to talk to you BronxBoy, grew up in Far Rockaway myself.

--IMM

[rateyes]

28. I hear that..

and agree with you. Living in GA, I'm tired of hearing a story that has nothing to do with a person's color, but the person telling it has to identify the person's color (i.e., I was talking to a black man in the store the other day, and he said he liked this or that...) Why not, I was talking to a man the other day...?

Isn't it amazing that about the only organization in the world that is still segregated is the church?

[immoderate]

32. I don't think all the churches are segregated. Well not de jure.

But there surely are many that seem to fall out that way. And it's one of the last places where that can be carried on. And in many cases religion is doing the heavy lifting that overt racism is no longer allowed to do.

Again, I emphasize that I don't mean the kind of liberal, spiritual religious people that you encounter on this board, and I figure all over the United States, even some Republicans.</disclaimer>

--IMM

[rateyes]

38. I think you're right...

and, I think it's sickening. I pray for the day when it is no longer true. Until then, I'll keep fighting it.

[BronxBoy]

36. IMM.......

Talking about race and religon almost always leads to tensions. I know exactly what you mean though. I really wish that this country would move past the need to prefix our beliefs. I'll leave it to far smarter people than me to figure out how to get past this point.

I'vw been in GA for about a year. Was on the Island before I came down.

Off topic: Did the Rockaways always have the fierce rip tides they have now? Looks like 10 people die every year.

[immoderate]

46. I have been lucky.

I've mostly always been in situations where I had "diverse" friends. Rockaway was always fairly well integrated (almost.) And I was always eager to hang with people different than me.

About rip tides, it's hard for me to say. I did not know of any. When I was growing up, we lived on Reynolds Channel, east end, Beach 13 Street, which is opposite Atlantic Beach. Not much surf, but there could be strong currents if you swam out beyond the rock jetties.

As a teen we used to wander down the beach to more open ocean, the famous 35th Street Boardwalk, bigger waves, and I don't remember any rip tides.

First time I ever got caught in a rip tide was Point Mugu, California, and I was thousand feet from shore before I knew it. I'm in Ft. Lauderdale now, and sometimes they close the beaches because of rip tides.

Where on the Island were you? I teach adult classes now and sometimes I write for them the name of my native land -- Lawn Guyland!

--IMM

[rateyes]

24. They are the party of

FUNDAMENTALIST Christians, who are out to break down the wall separating church and state, in order that they might rule the country. It's called Christian Reconstructionism, and in my opinion is evil. They are supposed to believe that you change the world by letting God change people's hearts. They think the only way to accomplish that is to gain political power. It's a whole world view that they are trying to push---which is why they are so rabid about getting "their" judges on the courts. They can rule away our rights. Which is why I hope the "compromise" will help us keep the filibuster alive when it comes to Bush's nominees to the Supreme Court. (although, I'm not sure it was correct strategy) We NEED to stop him there.

[immoderate]

30. Reiterating what I said elsewhere.

Their Christianity is a ploy. It's a vehicle for racism. Straight racism would not pass the civil rights muster, but it gets by under the guise of religion.

I am not religious, and have been known to get into debates with theists here. But I would not deny anyone their personal beliefs, no matter how fundamental, as long as it doesn't get into someone else's freedoms.

--IMM

[rateyes]

33. Can't and don't argue with any of that. n/t

[AirAmFan]

35. 40yrs ago, MLK said 11am Sun morning is "the most segregated hr"

of the week.

We haven't made much progress since then in desegregating churches. A few predominantly white and predominantly black congregations have teamed up for occasional joint worship, but that's about it. Some religious people keep trying, though.

See http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/004/22.33.html :

"Christianity Today, April 2005

All Churches Should Be Multiracial: The biblical case.

...(Michael O.) Emerson teamed with fellow sociologists Karen Chai Kim and George Yancey and with theologian Curtiss Paul DeYoung to write a sequel, United by Faith: The Multiracial Congregation as an Answer to the Problem of Race (Oxford, 2003). The teamŒwho define a multiracial church as "a congregation in which no one racial group accounts for 80 percent or more of the membership"Œdid an intensive, three-year study that included 2,500 phone interviews, written surveys taken by 500 congregations, and firsthand observations of churches in four diverse metropolitan areas."

[immoderate]

37. Malcolm had to go to Mecca...

to find that out.

--IMM

[BronxBoy]

39. So

is it hopeless then? I don't go to church. My wife has been hinting that we need to go.

So how do we get over the hump?

[rateyes]

45. You say you live in GA...

because the answer to that question, IMHO, is that it depends on which church you go to. I know some good ones, and some, well bad ones.

[BronxBoy]

47. I don't go to church.......

Part of the reason has nothing to do with religion. I ain't going to front. I love to fish and I always used to catch the morning boat for fluke, porgies or stripers.

My wife misses church however. She straightened my ass out in church and she really wants to go. I miss some aspects too. If you know some good churches in Gwinnett, PM me or send me an email

[alphafemale]

103. Check out the UU's

I'm in South GA. Being involved in this group is what help keeps me sane here. It's a religion that attracts progressive minded, socially aware people.

http://uua.org/

[silverlib]

124. I can't think of a better way

to be close to whatever God one believes in than to go fishing. I do attend church, but if my husband fished, I'd probably go with him, at least most of the time. A body of clean water, a forest, a park, a mountain - can't think of a better places to become more spiritual; much better than a building. A "good" church is a great place of learning, but outside is a much better place to find spiritualism.

Who was it that first said, "I'd rather be fishing."

[AirAmFan]

49. I think there are many good people in white Christian congregations

who simply are ignorant about racial injustice in this country, and who are silent about the politicization of their "religious" leadership. See the link I posted in #35 for quantitative support for these ideas.

IMHO, religious congregations need to be challenged DIRECTLY on their institutionalized racism, just the way the Republican party is being challenged. Ironically, Republicans promotion of funding "faith-based" groups with tax dollars provides an opening for the general public to do this. Certainly the few religious leaders (like Jim Wallis) who are scathing about the racism in their midst haven't made much of a dent.

[goclark]

123. Bravo BronxBoy-excellent post!

Your post has caused me to ponder your well thought out question. I started a post here yesterday about the Republicans controlling a WHITE POWER PARTY.

The answers to my post and the answers to your post are what I believe that DU should be about. THINKING and bouncing ideas around in a polite, non flaming way.

You are right! IMO Dean should not refer to them as the White Christian party because the group of thugs has no interest in Christianity in it's purest sense. The cross that they are hiding behind,IMO, is a cross laced with greed and anger and sprinkled with racism.

They are about " POLITICAL CHRISTIANITY" and in my view, that is not about the God that exists in my head.

Keep the thoughts flowing!

By the way, I understand what your wife is urging you to do. I had a hard time with organized religion, still do sometimes. But,I was blessed to find a church ,and a minister,that I feel at peace with - I hear God more clearly there.

Keep looking for a spiritual home, it does wonders for the soul.

[ElectroPrincess]

48. I'm a white Christian that fully supports Dean and *understood* his point

The people who took offense at Howard Dean's statement about white Christian republicans need to "look within" rather than lashing out at their fellow democrats.

I'm a devout liberal Catholic ... very far from perfect, but I try my best to volunteer my time each week to the school or outreach program and attend Mass with my family.

I'm sad to say that it's time for Democrats who happen to be Christian whites to get more *thick skinned* and see the larger picture.

Think about the following fellow democrats = The right wing republicans have taken "Jesus" hostage with their morally absolute rhetoric. As Christians we need to remind the RW of Jesus's love of the poor and those who are the outcasts of society, i.e., what you do to the least of us, you do to me.

With regard to politics, we need to push for the STRICT separation of Church and State. Our various faiths (or secular/agnostic etc. humanitarian) upbringing GIVES ALL OF US the foundation to treat our fellow creatures and the earth with respect. Therefore specific religions or generic "Christian" values are NOT appropriate.

Why do the RW Republicans hate the American Indian who demonstrated values and loved nature? Are we going to let them FORCE one aspect of faith (Christianity) on our entire country? I hope not.

Dean was right. If you doubt that, ask yourself one question about current events. Consider all the people of color who are sold into slavery every day or make pennies in sweat shops. Then ask yourself why our WHITE focused USA Corporate Media is "all over" the disappearance an adult (18 y.o.) white woman who's gone missing? No need to change this thread's topic, but just ponder this for a moment?

The Right Wing Corporate Republicans run the media. They are focusing on this story NOT because the woman is pretty, but because she is both "pretty and white" ... the thought that men of color may have killed her serves slabs of red meat to their racist southern WHITE base.

Sad to say that the CORE or what is called the BASE of the RW of the Republican party is nut-case pseudo-religious zealots and racists.

The above is my honest opinion regarding this issue. :-)

[rateyes]

53. I'm right with you there..

I mean, you would think that so-called educated people would know about the literary device called hyperbole. You overstate your point with illustration to bring attention to reality. The Republicans know that's what he's doing---but, they hear stuff like what Dean said, and they see it as an opportunity to talk about something besides Bush's record. They can't build up their guy, so they have to tear down ours. I think Dean and all the rest of the Democratic leadership should keep using hyperbole, especially when it comes to the issues---that will keep the repubs talking about what we want to talk about.

[BronxBoy]

57. Thanks for Posting this

But how do we get your point of view out to the mainstream?

And there were some White christians on this board who had some concerns? Poeple with lots of posts who I don't think are trolls.

How do we address their concerns?

[ElectroPrincess]

107. No, they are good people ...

But they need to kindly "take a deep breath" and reassess what's at stake here - with the vicious, take no prisoners, agenda of the rabid right wing zealots who spew hateful rhetoric. * was right on (for a change) in terming this "catapulting the propaganda." That is, the right wing noise machine pounds forth mean-spirited messages until the sheeple believe this BUNK is reality,i.e., only republicans are true Christians; only republicans support the military; all liberal democrats hate America first; all liberal democrats hate the military; all liberal democrats are socialist and/or communist (how moranic?); all liberal democrats are morally bankrupt etc. etc.

To our truly valued but - our milder mannered Democratic Christian folks - who tend to be "take aback" by the rancor, well, with respect, please consider stepping out of the way while we figuratively kick some pesudo-fundy a**. No it won't be pretty but these battles must be fought lest we go belly up into corporate control of everything we used to know as American.

[hyphenate]

50. As they say, black clouds are gathering

and the liberal Christians in this country are organizing enough to take back religion of the masses.

Several people, including some here on DU are helping to do what needs to be done in this area. A 527 is being organized, for one, that will concentrate on giving the millions of people out there who feel that liberals are attacking them for their religious beliefs another alternative--keep freedom of religion for all, under the liberal banner of everyone having the privilege and ability to practise whatever elements of religion they want, without harassment by any radical faction.

The RRR has managed to hornswoggle many into thinking that the liberal side doesn't care for religion and that 99.9% of us are atheists or agnostics, but all heretics. The version of so-called Christianity that the RRR practices is anything BUT Christianity.

It's terrible to think that our country is being taken over by a bunch of narcissistic, egocentric profiteers who have managed to pull the wool over 48% of this country's religious folks, but it's because they know how to lie, cheat and steal well enough to make our non-interference look positively petrifying to anyone who is gullible enough to believe every word they say.

You make a good point--it appears we are severely lacking in our follow-up here--that points made by key Democrats seem to keep our heretical image in the fore. However--and this is VERY important: it's not true, nor even REMOTELY true. The problem is not with us, but with the media, as it's been for the past 5 years since the right took over our country with a coup. They have given this administration a "get out of jail free" card, and stymied experts who can't believe how this administration has managed to bob and weave and avoid scandals by placing the blame on others. The media, of course, is owned by a lot of highly place Repukes who have more to gain keeping this illicit regime in power, as they fill their purses with the hard earned cash from all of us. So it's to their advantage to take sound bite examples which further their conservative cause. Those media outlets which are Democratic or liberal leaning end up being in some way discredited: think of Dan Rather and the phony "letters" which pulled him and CBS down. We know that there is a distinct possibility that those were real, but the right managed to put enough question in the air to make it appear that CBS was trying to "frame" Bush. Again, it's the right that is controlling any one of a thousand different media avenues, and they, with Rove, know their scare tactics only too well.

I don't know if this is the kind of answer you are looking for, though. If it isn't, I apologize for the verbose reply.

[BronxBoy]

65. No No No No No.......

Not verbose and addresses some questions I had.

I'd think a lot of folks would like to know about the 527. That is an example of the constructive efforts that are being undertaken to turn the tide.

Listen, as IMM said earlier in this thread; Christians are Christians. Your race shouldn't be an issue. The folks who have made it an issue are the one's who are protesting so loudly now.

Let people know about your efforts!

[rateyes]

74. Yeah, let me know..

about the 527. Would love to be a part of it.

[Chovexani]

51. I'm Black and Pagan

And I agree with you 100%.

[rateyes]

54. Love the hair! n/t

[BronxBoy]

82. Damn!!!

Black and Pagan........

If you're Gay, we got us a 3 fer

:rofl:

[carpediem]

59. dang - that's a good post.

thanks.

[enigmatic]

61. Fantastic post

Kudos, very thought-provoking..

[peacetalksforall]

64. Very good post. I think right wing extremism grows because of a variety

of fears that have overtaken the radical Christians. At the same time, the fanaticism has grown because non-fanatical Christians practice Christianity by being tolerant.

Your questions -

"It's up to you I think to bring the true relevance of Christ's teaching into the public purview. How are you going to do it? Is there currently a movement that can counter these assholes on the right? Is it the media and their control by the right? Do they have better organization? What can you do to counter it? Is there a White, Christian,a Liberal organization that can effectively counter the views of the intolerant right?"

- raise thoughts that are always in my mind.

I am reviled by the interpretations of the bible by fanatic Christians to the point where I am now horrified of the bible....except for a small part -

the Beatitudes -

·Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
·Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land. (Verse 4)
·Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
·Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
·Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
·Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
·Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
·Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)

I'm sure theologians fight (gently) between them about wording or whatever, but to me this part of the bible is worth honoring because the spirit embodied in them is what I was taught as a kid to value in my country. I see a parallel. And I want to believe that the concepts are in every religion.

I loved the melting pot rhetoric and the concept of rights for citizens and non-citizens and the concept of leaders and our own who will protect it and help us improve on it.

If I could organize, it would be around a simple message - corporations and radical Christians cannot take us over - they cannot own us.

We have a bible within the Bible that is a pivot and magnet. And we have our children. The common denominator throughout is children. We must stop MIS-RAISING our children. We must stop teaching them lies. We must stop the hypocrisy.

If we start with children, we can start with reality.

Otherwise, we MUST CEASE AND DESIST teaching children lies. We can organize to enact to expose the reality of what we're doing, what we seem to be about - theft, lies, greed, bigotry, 'isms', war, power, weapons, exploitation, prison and death happy, and every form of fear against neighbor. We must face reality - we must tell them that they are not brothers with other children around the world and in our country - and we must face the reality that we must teach them what they need to know to survive - all of the above. Or we must do something.

By organizing to stop teaching them lies, we can draw attention to our inhuman momentum. By organizing to rewrite their books and lessons to match the reality of their looming adulthood as practiced by todays- adults, we can figure out how to do it and protect it.

I'm for making a decision to separate in a bloodless separation, if necessary.

We do not have to lead a hypercritical life starting with the children.

Simplistic, but where else to we start? We start with the hypocrisy that is bringing us down. If not good enough, then prepare to separate in a bloodless separation, a separation based on how children will be taught and raised and treated.

Those who have conspired to rule us are using religion. They let us believe that we were a grand country with a near perfect Constitution, Bill of Rights, and infrastructure. Now they are announcing the conspiracy with grand successes because they own fanatic Christians. Fanatic Christians and tolerant Christians must speak to each other about the children and how to get back on track.

If it's impossible, then I want to be on the side opposite the fanatics and retain my Constitution and Bill of Rights and the practice of separating church and state. While fighting corporate and diabolical rule to form a serfdom.

[BronxBoy]

70. Thank you Higher Class!

At the end of the day, it is about the children because I sometimes think the adults are too far gone. The question is will they will have a chance to recitfy what we are putting on their plates. GWB is leaving them a deficit of how much?

I'm not religious but I think that the biblical quotes are from the sermon on the mount. How come the religious right doesn't refer to these passages?

[rateyes]

79. I'll tell you why..

and this is theological talk. Hope it's not boring. But, most fundamentalists hold to a view of the Bible called "dispensationalism." Time is divided into "dispensations." We are, according to them, living in the next to the last dispensation, the last being the world after Jesus returns. They believe that the Sermon on the Mount is a description of the final dispensation---and, therefore not relevant for our world today. In that sermon Jesus said things like, "love your enemy," "turn the other cheek," "if you hate your brother/sister, you've already committed murder," etc.

They can't live like that (nobody fully can) and, so it must be a passage referring to the final dispensation, when they will be able to. I'm overgeneralizing here, and there's a lot more to it, and not all dispensationalists would fully agree with this assessment. Although, most dispensationalists don't even know they are one. They simply believe what the preachers tell them is the truth.

BTW, in another version of the Beatitudes, Jesus adds some "Woes." Woe to the rich, etc. Think rich Republicans wish he hadn't said that?

[wildeyed]

68. Part of the problem, liberal christians don't get any press.

Recently, the mainline protestant faiths put out a press release condemning the Bush's budget as cruel to the poor and unchristian. The only reason I even heard about it was someone posted it here.

The radical christians have been at this for years. They have money, organization and they work very very hard. It seems like the liberal christians groups are organizing, but we are so far behind.

A little off topic, but the YMCA in Charlotte NC (where I live) has been giving out copies of Focus on the Family magazine. I had a meeting with the director of one of the Y's about it this AM. I pointed out the FOF was out of the mainstream and very political. He played dumb with me, but I am not going to drop this. I wish I knew where to go for some guidance, though. It is tough battling the fundies solo. I need some liberal christian backup.

[BronxBoy]

73. I remember that!!!!

You're absolutely right but how do we change that? I have to beleive that liberal Christians are the majority of Christians but there is much work to be done.

I got much respect for you. The fact that you are protesting the policies of the place where you live speaks volume to your passion. I used to live in Charlotte. Not an easy town to live in if you have liberal sensibilities

[wildeyed]

97. We change it by speaking up and getting mad.

The radical christians have put a ton of hard work and $$$'s into their efforts. We need to do the same. I dislike everything the radicals stand for, but I admire and emulate their work ethic.

Charlotte is improving. We went blue in the last election by 5 points. It is an interesting place to live for an activist right now because we are in flux and pretty evenly split between dems and pugs. I can see the effect of my political work and that is gratifying.

[ElectroPrincess]

114. You got that wrong = it's "herd" not "hard" work LOL /eom

[rateyes]

83. Tell me,

is the YMCA funded with any tax-dollars? Are they a tax-exempt organization under 503 (c). If they are either, it is illegal for them to endorse political candidates, for or against. i.e. We endorse Bush, or Anybody but Kerry....

Some of the FOF stuff deals with things that aren't political...I disagree with most of it, but if the material they are passing out doesn't have anything to do with political endorsement, there's probably not much you can do, other than dropping your membership.

If you, however, receive any material that endorses a candidate, or a particular party for election...you should report them to the ACLU, or a group like "Americans United for Separation of Church and state: link--www.au.org--and, yes even The Baptist Joint Committee for Public Affairs---link---www.bjcpa.org.

[wildeyed]

98. They are tax exempt.

The magazine that they are giving out is non-political. But as soon as you go to the website, you realize what the real purpose of the organizations is.

I don't think they are legally required to get rid of the mag. But I can still put the pressure on them. Their motto is "You Belong at the Y". My point, every time I, a Democrat, walk past that mag, I feel like I DON'T belong at the Y. Because FOF is a GOP brand. They should replace it with something non-partisan, or give out Sojourners, too, to balance their message.

I was thinking about getting in touch with my local dem organization. Maybe we can do a call in campaign. Also, there are several large Y donors who are also prominent local dems, so maybe they would speak up. Maybe. Wish me luck!

[rateyes]

105. Good luck!! n/t

[marions ghost]

122. good idea...

look for supporters to oppose this. This is exactly how they are spreading this stuff at grassroots level. It's very insidious. Don't let them hide behind "legality" so much--think morally and truthfully.

[faithnotgreed]

72. amen and amen. i keep posting that these are not Christians

as defined as followers of Christ. and i continually ask why democrats (and others) perpetuate the myth by calling them Christians

Christ does not hate. period

thank you so much for posting bronx boy. i do hope that i am one of the posters here that you have seen on occasion stand up for what and who i believe is Christ
i never want to judge but i guess its inherent by seeing peoples behavior and getting a very distinct (shall we say) feeling of some of what their heart contains
i also often avoid outright religious wars here but sometimes i feel led to post my love for Christ and for ALL peoples!

[BronxBoy]

78. Yes.......

and you should be able to profess your beliefs, especially if the core values of your religion are in synch with the true democratic vision. And I believe most religions are democratic religions at their heart. It's only so-called interpreters who distort the fact. I mena, how many religions are intrinsitically evil?

Diversity is messy. It's easy to have a well honed message an to stay on point if you only let one type of person into the room. We progessives have a very long row to hoe becuase, you know what, we have to listen to and try to understand other people.

What a concept!

[I Have A Dream]

80. Your second paragraph is really right on the money.

I never really thought of it that way, but it really is true.

[faithnotgreed]

86. right on.. listening to marvin gayes "whats going on" right now

and it speaks to all of this

youre exactly right. most religions were absolutely never intended to be as what is portrayed by us humans. and ive said before i dont blame people for running as far away from God as they can
if all i had was what i learned from media and hypercritical persons and churches etc then no way would i want anything to do with God!
thankfully i had a cool upbringing (or so i think anyway) and would proudly be called a Jesus freak. though of course i fail all the time....

[BeTheChange]

95. Another song...

Old pirates, yes, they rob i;
Sold I to the merchant ships,
Minutes after they took i
From the bottomless pit.
But my hand was made strong
By the ’and of the almighty.
We forward in this generation
Triumphantly.
Won’t you help to sing
These songs of freedom? -
’cause all I ever have:
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs.

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our minds.
Have no fear for atomic energy,
’cause none of them can stop the time.
How long shall they kill our prophets,
While we stand aside and look? ooh!
Some say it’s just a part of it:
We’ve got to fulfil de book.

Won’t you help to sing
These songs of freedom? -
’cause all I ever have:
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs.
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our mind.
Wo! have no fear for atomic energy,
’cause none of them-a can-a stop-a the time.
How long shall they kill our prophets,
While we stand aside and look?
Yes, some say it’s just a part of it:
We’ve got to fulfil de book.
Won’t you help to sing
Dese songs of freedom? -
’cause all I ever had:
Redemption songs -
All I ever had:
Redemption songs:
These songs of freedom,
Songs of freedom.

[faithnotgreed]

129. thanks friend.... good to see this when i first check out the board today

[katinmn]

99. Those that preach hate are not Christians

We call them Pharisees, pseudo-Christians, ant-Christians, fundies, extremist zombies, fakes and liars.

Perhaps we need a new name that defines what they really are and that resonates with the public.

Currently, many real Christians feel threatened by ANY attacks on church-going folk, even when the church-goers are evil, hate-filled Nazis.

True Christians have to do a better job of defining themselves and separating themselves from the Pharisees. It's in everyone's best interest if they do so.

[Festivito]

75. I don't have good news, for the politics that is.

Before I try answering, understand that I deem religion as only one venue being used by a wealthy cabal. Money drives them, money is used to effect the usery of religion, polititians, media, and whatever else they think they need. The profit for this gambit comes from our accumulated tax dollars, resources, our future, AND our nation's credit.

One more thing. I see Dean's comments as properly qualified with "pretty much" and "some", words that were changed by media members into much, many and most. With much, many and most, I'd disagree with the statements also. As the statements were spoken, I agree with Dean. I also think much of the talk hs been by people misrepresenting Dean's statements or reacting to the misrepresented statements. I have little doubt that media members inquired of other Democrats giving bad quotes and ran the responses creating the dissention they would then denounce. Remember, they did the same to Al Gore changing "in creating" to inventing ..the internet, and changing "that was the one that started it all" (refering to a High School girl's letter .. that started his investigation) to "I was the one that started it all" (saying Al, himself, had found Love Canal). There's money involved -- they lie.

. A black man calling a group "pretty much a white-Christian group" is not necessarily saying very much. He could even be a leading member. Without the "pretty much" he implies alienation that a white person speaking wouldn't. The bad effect depends pretty much on that qualifier.

. The Biblical fruits of the Spirit are patience, kindness and long-suffering. I do remind my fundie friends of this more often these days. It is just the nature of kindness and patience that make it ripe for those wanting a vain shortcut to happiness that turns out to be in vain. Sometimes one just watches like watching a train hit a car. Politics is a different game from salvation. Politics needs to fight in the here and now.

. But, again, RW Christians are only one element of the Right-wing. They are organized. More, they are funded underhandedly where needed. The Right has sold out to tobacco and the military-industrialists, i.e. a bunch with a lot of money. The left has trial lawyers who will make less money if we get national health care, and union workers who are easily swayed by RW radio.

So, they're organized. And, I also suspect they even send watchers to various churches just to inject a little propoganda as needed, and to make a small but visible donation. Ministers would believe Hitler if he donated something.

I'm also quite sure the RW was behind Promise Keepers. I think they took advantage of church kindness by calling church secretaries and getting mailing lists, probably under the pretense of PRO-LIFE. The PK's even re-wrote their own Bible! They definately used a lot of CODE words.

They have collected addresses, emails, and phone numbers on millions of people. They are organized.

I would love to see us using a major think-tank data-base Monday and Thursday update on talking points. I would love to see us enjoin churches as social groups with interests to join us. I would love to see us collecting emails addresses by sending cutsie emails; and phone numbers noting specific likes and dislikes for each.

I don't think color is a problem. The problem I encounter is religion-scared lefties who place separation of church and state ahead of the actual first amendment free choice and free practice. I've been hidden in the middle of those threads you avoid. And, they've either avoided answering me, or they've glibly or insolently repeated some pat phrase. Arrgh.

[rateyes]

87. I'm not a religion-scared lefty, but

I think that separation of church and state is a principle worth fighting for. The fundies are trying to break down that wall, so that they can run the state by their own religious principles. When it comes to relgion, the first amendment is about more than free choice---it's certainly about that---the government shall not prohibit the free exercise of religion---but, the consitution, as I know you know--I'm not trying to talk down to you---I hear what you are saying and agree with most of it----but it also says that government can't establish religion.

I don't care what or who people choose to worship--or, if they choose not to worship anyone--but, the fundies want to force God down our throats. I, personally, have chosen a belief in God and Jesus---but, it is was my choice, and I have no right to "choose" for you. And, I won't condone the actions of those who will.

[Stephanie]

76. no comment, big kick, nominated

[mzteris]

81. This is exactly

what I was trying to say the other day and was jumped all over. And I was raised Christian (and am white).

*****teaching into the public purview. How are you going to do it? Is there currently a movement that can counter these assholes on the right? Is it the media and their control by the right? Do they have better organization? What can you do to counter it? Is there a White, Christian,a Liberal organization that can effectively counter the views of the intolerant right?***


There are *some* organizations trying to counter the hate-filled rhetoric of the fundamentalists - but they are not nearly as organized and effective as the hatemongers are.

(I just lost all my *bookmarks* or I'd post some links. Rats. I have to go find all that stuff all over again....)

[BronxBoy]

84. You know what I think.....

True Christians are not hate mongering demagouges. But the issue for Christians, especially White Chritians (because it is your face they are attaching to this bull) is how to aggressively meet this while remaining true to your beliefs

[I Have A Dream]

85. Hi, mzteris - while we are low posters, there's real fear that...

we might be trolls. (Justifiable given what I've seen in some situations here.) When we have more posts, people will be able to have more faith that we're not posers.

We just have to pay our dues now just as all of the high posters had to do at one time.

[mzteris]

106. is that why

hardly anyone ever talks to me?? I was wondering why I seemed to be set on *ignore*. (sigh)

I don't have a WHOLE lot of time for posting. I have very busy boys for whom I must play chauffeur!

Thanks.

[I Have A Dream]

117. I think that as low posters, we have to be a little more careful...

to make it really, really clear that we're really who we say we are. Additionally, we need to tread lightly at first (don't state things too strongly or push too hard) because trolls like to come in and start trouble and they pretend to be one of us. If you were to say the same thing after having 500 or so posts, you'd probably get more responses because they could believe that you're not a poser. Until then, if it appears that you're saying things that are too controversial, you'll be suspect. (I understand why this is the case given what I've seen.)

Please don't take it personally. I'm a low poster also. I understand that every person who sees my number of posts takes this into account when they read my posts.

Another thing that might help is to donate something to DU. It can be any amount, and it would get a star next to your name. My guess is that people will trust you more if you have taken the time to contribute because a poser's probably not going to do that. (It's just another thing that might make it easier to determine that you're "for real".)

Finally, there's also a pecking order based upon number of posts. Right now, we're at the bottom of the pecking order. Again, that will change as we post more.

I hope that this has helped. I'm certain that things will change as you have more posts under your belt. (I'll be looking for you!)

[mzteris]

119. thanks

for the info and the welcome!

:hi:

[BronxBoy]

89. Thank You

I got a lot out of this thread. I thought it might turn into a flame fest but I read a lot of well reasoned posts.

Between the Skyy and Grapefruit Juices and my wife telling me I'd better bring my ass to bed, I must leave. I don't start many threads but when I do start one, I feel I have an obligation to hang with it for awhile and feel the love!!!! LOL

I hope that you will continue this discussion because it is a serious one.

Later

BB

[rateyes]

90. Thanks BronxBoy,

This is the longest I've held with a discussion myself. I nominated it, and appreciate it. I too have a wife calling me away from the monitor. Great thread.

To everyone else: Dean didn't offend me, he's speaking the truth. And, don't ever, ever, ever apologize for the truth.

[La Coliniere]

91. Sleep tight...

Kicked. This thread was terrific. God, DUers are so damn articulate.

[Maraya1969]

92. Aren't Catholics the largest Protestant religion?

They are not wing nuts like the fundamentalists. JFK was Catholic remember?

And yea the Pope says no gay marriage and no abortion and no birth control but no one listens to him anyway.

I was truly moved by the late Pope's funeral and I think it was because I never felt threatened by them. I've never had a Catholic try to convert me. And they don't use Jesus as a fighting weapon.

And for that matter, most Christians are not the fundamentalists that are screaming the loudest these days.

Even Alcoholics Anonymous has a fraction that is for "Christians" And by that I mean fundamentalist born again or you going to Hell Christians. They are the ones who separate themselves and cause so much animosity toward them.

Ding Bats.

[katinmn]

100. have you checked out CNS News?

Catholic News Service?

Stories that bash gays and say abstinence is THE answer to AIDs in Africa tells me there is a strong fundie-like segment that advocates hate and hypocrisy in the Church.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/briefs/cns/20050610.htm#head10

[ElectroPrincess]

115. Have you checked the Catholic Worker Newspaper?

http://www.catholicworker.com/

Every faith and denomination have their mean spirited extremists factions.

[katinmn]

126. I agree with that.

[I Have A Dream]

101. Hi, Maraya1969 - actually, Catholics aren't Protestants...

However, both Protestants and Catholics fall under the Christian religion.

I work with a lot of Catholic people, and those with whom I work are strongly behind the Bush administration. Additionally, these people really do listen to the Pope in reference to gay marriage, abortion and birth control. However, they don't listen to him on the morality of the war in Iraq, for some reason. If the fundamentalists are "wing nuts", these people (the ones with whom I work) are just as much so.

It's my experience that Catholics don't try to convert people but rather they want to change society to follow many of the things that Catholicism holds as true. To me, that's just as bad for our society because it still takes away my freedoms.

(I'm NOT talking about ALL Catholics -- I'm just speaking about my experiences with the people with whom I work.)

[ElectroPrincess]

116. Not according to some Right Wing Baptists in the Bible Belt.

"However, both Protestants and Catholics fall under the Christian religion."

Some right wing Protestants loath us Catholics because they're under the wrong notion that we "worship" instead of "honor" Mother Mary and The Saints.

Mean-spirited Protestant fundy joke:

"Are you a Catholic?"

So. Baptist Fundy responds =

"No I'm a Christian!"

That's why it blows my mind that some fellow parishioners believe that the right wing Protestants have any respect for them beyond their votes. Too strange for me. :(

[I Have A Dream]

121. I understand where you're coming from...

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was in Campus Crusade for Christ in college. It is a very conservative Evangelical Christian group, and I was still a liberal. According to them and fundamentalist Christians, you are NOT a Christian unless you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

They scoffed at the idea that Catholics are Christians. They even had little tracts with things to say to someone who was a Catholic so that we could go through the process of "saving" them. I'm not making fun of these people, because they really do believe what they're saying, and they really think that they are being good people by going out and saving people from Hell.

I am so thankful that I was able to break free from them, though. It wasn't easy since they were my support system at the time. If I hadn't broken free, I shudder to think of what kind of person I would be today.

[martymar64]

93. My tactic is to

Identify the Republican Party with the KKK and David Duke and Timothy McVeigh. Keep hammering that.

[BeTheChange]

94. Fantastic post...

I'll go ahead and start out by saying Im a Christian, and a liberal. I came to du looking for liberals and I found them.. I just didnt find many that were very liberal about my Christianity. I dont know that I call myself a democrat anymore. Infact, if I look at what a democrat is supposed to be, vs what a republican is supposed to be, I fall halfway in the middle. I dont believe in big govt - this was historically a republican idea. But I dont believe that social services shouldnt be supported.. this is obviously democrat. What I do believe is that something is wrong with this country, so I get in where I moderately fit in.. and for now, on some occassions.. I fit in here. I definately dont fit into freerepublic.

I believe that no matter what side of the coin you are on, you have to acknowledge that faith plays an important role in the lives of the majority of the population. MLK was a Baptist minister and look what he did. I dont know if anyone on this site can dispute the strides he made towards democracy in this country. He took Christianity back to Christ and appealed to the commonsense of the people. But, as we know... MLK had his faults too.. just like every man or woman. Those faults didnt end up crucifying him because his message was pure.

The modern Christian movement and involvement with worldly things like government didnt even start in this country till Reagan. The spin masters aligned with big money ministers and started branding Christianity republican. People can call them all sheeps if it makes them feel better.. But they are just people, like you, trying to do the best they can with what they have. With what surrounds them and shows them kindness, some type of human connection with others. For alot of people, that is a church community. In our disconnected and toxic culture, people grasp at what is tangible. So, if Pastor so and so says GWB is great, maybe they trust his word.. because he helped feed them when they were hungry, or lent them an ear when they needed to be heard. That doesnt make them bad. It makes them human.

Democrats should be working to bring the good voices to the forefront. And sadly, here on DU, atleast daily Im very disappointed in the responses to threads about Christianity. Im sad that the words of Christ have been so twisted and that the experiences of so many have left them so jaded as to not see the opportunity that could be had. I'm sad that I see the same hypocrisy that keeps me out of the churches of TD Jakes and Jerry Falwelly, right here masquerading as liberalism. Not all Christians are bad.. not even the republican ones.. not even my mother in law who voted for Bush because she has been a pastor's wife and a mother for 35 years and she thinks that abortion shouldnt be legal because who she is is a mother, that is all she knows. She isnt a bad person. She would give anybody anything they needed even if she didnt have it to give.. she would find a way. She isnt a lost cause or a sheep, or an idiot... she is just doing the best she can.

We should all be doing the best we can to stop what is happening in the world right now and that might just be bringing Christians back to Christ. There is power in that. The Christ that is in their bible, the Christ that is in their heart.. in the world around them. Not in the pockets of a bunch of Pharisees.

I think your post makes excellent points and I dont know all the answers.. but if we can start groups to investigate BBV, or the Downingstreet memo, or blast the media about the latest atrocity, Id love to see a democratic group of Christians trying to change the way Christianity is being contorted.

[I Have A Dream]

104. Hi, BeTheChange -- I'm sorry that you've felt alienated...

by some of the reactions to religion here. Please don't give up on DU. Some of us are just tired of having "religious" people continuously try to take away what we consider to be our rights. It's easy to consider all religious people to be the same, even though this absolutely is not true.

My senator is Santorum, and he says that the Constitution doesn't even guarantee our right to birth control. It's stuff like this that makes me just recoil when I think of religion now. We're not even talking abortion here -- this is contraception!

I absolutely believe what you say about the need for a democratic group of Christians trying to change the way Christianity is being contorted. I also don't know how we make progress in this area since the Religious Right's churches do everything they can to control what its people think. If the Powers That Be in these churches don't want change to occur, they'll just say that Satan is involved in the attempts to change things.

Several members of my family are Evangelical Christians, so I know that there are many, many good people in these groups. I just don't know how to reach them. (I've had some success with my family, but it's been hard, and they often cringe when they realize that I'm starting another discussion about these issues.)

[faithnotgreed]

130. were very glad you are here.. please keep posting

[JNelson6563]

102. Thoughtful post

You approach the discussion very reasonably. Good job. :toast:

Julie

[mzteris]

108. Here are some

organizations that are *progressive*.

The Interfaith Alliance describes itself as "the faith-based voice countering the radical right and promoting the positive role of religion." www.interfaithalliance.org/

***
Faithful America : You know us - we’re people like you, as diverse as our nation, a tapestry of passionate, can-do persons whose beliefs find expression everywhere from cathedrals to coffeehouses. Together we are a progressive, inclusive, and responsive interfaith electronic advocacy community dedicated to providing a powerful collective voice to help advance the cause of compassion and justice in public policy.

Faithful Americans include Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Baha’is, to name a few. Many express their faiths in individual ways. Yet all of us share a common bond - when it comes to government, we believe our faith does matter. Our voices are needed. Our values must be reflected in our nation’s public policies

A program of the National Council of Churches, USA, FaithfulAmerica.org is made up of persons who believe that one’s faith - however broadly or uniquely expressed - has a word to say about our nation’s government and its priorities.

http://www.faithfulamerica.org/about.php?PHPSESSID=95901fbbed59cbba2a014852172cfb62

***

The National Council of Churches , founded in 1950, is the leading force for ecumenical cooperation among Christians in the United States. The NCC's 36 Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, historic African American and Living Peace member faith groups include 45 million persons in more than 100,000 local congregations in communities across the nation.

Statement of Faith: "The National Council of Churches is a community of Christian communions, which, in response to the gospel as revealed in the Scriptures, confess Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word of God, as Savior and Lord. These communions covenant with one another to manifest ever more fully the unity of the Church. Relying upon the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, the communions come together as the Council in common mission, serving in all creation to the glory of God." --from the Preamble to the NCC Constitution.

This general statement is accepted by all 36 of the NCC's member churches (also called communions, conventions and denominations), which as Christian bodies hold these and many other beliefs in common. Each of the member communions also has a unique heritage, including teachings and practices that differ from those of other members. http://www.ncccusa.org/

***

THE ALLIANCE OF BAPTISTS : The Alliance of Baptists is an alliance of individuals and churches dedicated to the preservation of historic Baptist principles, freedoms, and traditions, and to the expression of our ministry and mission through cooperative relationships with other Baptist bodies and the larger Christian community. http://www.allianceofbaptists.org/related_organizations.htm

***

Religious Tolerance : this is just a good website. http://www.religioustolerance.org/

[katinmn]

109. add UCC and Sojourners to the list of non Kool-Aid drinkers

[mzteris]

120. UCC

is on the list of links from one of those I listed, I think...

We should add SOULFORCE, too.

[Kerrytravelers]

118. I am involved with the liberal Christian movement.

As you've stated, it's been slow because our nuanced view on life isn't as clear-cut as the CC's black and white view on everything. Quite frankly, as we've discussed in our meetings, the media loves drama. They need a quick conflict that can tantalize viewers. It's like a soap opera- it's fun to watch. The "jesus" the CCs present is the "Thou Shall Not" Jesus. Ours is more of the "Beatitudes", such as blessed is the peacemakers, etc. Being blessed isn't as exciting as "Thou Shalt Not."

However, there is a growing movement, led by those liberal Christians who fought so hard during the 60s Civil Rights Movements who are dusting off the cobwebs and re-appearing. If it makes you feel better, the idea that being arrested protesting for democracy is well worth the fight has become a topic as of late.

We are quietly organizing among ourselves because we have no intention of advertising to the radical extremists what we are doing.

I can give you some links:





Also working with liberal Christians:


You may also want to read the writings of Jack Miles.

Feel free to ask me any further questions, now or in the future.

[katinmn]

125. Great. I'm bookmarking all of these

I love your dufus in a cowboy hat picture. :rofl:

[Hidden Stillness]

127. Anti-Christian Dems Also Have to Learn How to Talk, Not Just Attack

To be honest, I think this is yet another highly unimpressive Dean comment, right up there with all the "Nobody I know likes abortion," "They put us in the position of having to defend abortion," etc., stupid remarks, that seem "tough" and "honest," but when you think about it, don't seem to really be advancing anything important, at the cost of so much in-fighting. As some people have noted, Dean is apparently not as liberal and progressive as you might believe or want. I do not, though, criticize Dean and jump on that bandwagon. There was a really good comment, though, on one of the threads here (General-Politics) "What's wrong with pointing out that the Democratic Party is a melting pot?" from the 4th poster, HawkerHurricane, that because Dean specifically named the groups--"white" and "Christian"--as "Republicans," that "meant" that we Democrats are the "ANTI" "white Christian"/"Republican" Party, a disaster. Then you have to try to explain what you really meant, as the Republican media encourages the false impression. Somebody should get Dean away from the corporate "framing" consultants, and teach Dean how to talk, and by the way, stop antagonizing women.

We have to move past the era just ending, and adopt a new attitude toward a lot of things. As many people have noticed, there is a vicious hate on this website for Christians, they are allowed to get away with it, the slander is left standing, and other Democrats reading this can guess their own fate here. Democratic religious people--Christians, other religions, mixes of things, searchers who don't want to be identified with any group or name--from everything I have read from posters here, etc., are such a thoughtful, varied group, that this should have been a rich and constructive subject to explore, and also an attractive feature of our group, that we are the moral/spiritual thinkers who really try to find answers to things, and for whom religion is actually important, unlike the act that Republican male corporatists put on. Instead, you get this one group of total assholes who hide behind each other, attack as a group, and then, like fascists, censor you completely and try to get you silenced, and THEN go ON viciously attacking you. I have never tried to get anyone's post deleted; the anti-Christian mob, (so "oppressed") does all the time; you decide the threat. When they treat an ordinary liberal Christian as if we are the "persecuting genocidal agent of the theocracy," and your messages are deleted, not theirs, then anyone reading this site will conclude, "They hate us no matter what we really are, they will not allow me to live and express myself either." With all the "anti-heirarchical" religious people here who could have given a beautiful expression of religious faith--all squelched.

When these threads do not even honestly get into the meaning and concept of how people are thinking, but instead always, only, censor one side and do not allow it to critcize the hateful, lying attacks of the other, then do not stop those attacks by the other, privileged group, don't be surprised if people notice only your preference. They know you take sides, and that there is nothing useful to be learned from you.

I am old enough to remember when an attack exposing the hypocrisy of white people, Christians, "the middle-of-the-road," etc., was really brave and even exciting to hear. Those days are long gone, and an attempt has to be made to distinguish between people who only appear to be members of the same group. A more conciliatory attitude is needed, more perceptive and accepting, saving the attacks for the true enemy (Republicans, capitalists, bigoted males, whites, "theocrats,"etc.). An example might be the protests against the war. If you remember Viet Nam, you may remember that when the soldiers came home, disgraced and hated, they were actually spit on and had things thrown at them by protesters, who called them "baby killers," (just the way anti-abortionists do--standard term). It is painful and ugly to think back to. They don't do that anymore, but have a more understanding, inclusive attitude, having learned. Now they praise and respect those who serve, and attack the policy of certain wars. You learn.

We Democrats are actually on a higher level of thinking and could be a model for things--how to solve problems, conduct government ethically, get along and treat each other during debates, etc. It has to be solved here, or apparently you "prove" that it can't be solved.

[undeterred]

128. Thanks for saying this so well.

I am with you completely, hidden stillness. :thumbsup: