Police stun-gun 12-year-old(people surround school bus against police)

[Algorem]

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/lorain/111848257318490.xml&coll=2

Lorain officer called to calm melee on school bus

Saturday, June 11, 2005

Lorain- An empty CD case - that was all it took to spark a school bus fight Thursday that ended when police used a stun gun on a 12-year-old boy, police said.

The Masson Elementary School student had tried to take the case from another student and became enraged when the other boy refused, according to a report.

A police officer had to board the bus and used a Taser on the boy after the boy head-butted her when she tried to restrain him, police said.

A crowd of 20 or 30 people surrounded the bus, pounding on windows and demanding that police leave the boy alone, the report said...

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. OMG.

A 12 year old couldn't be restrained? This is reprehensible and she should be FIRED. :grr:

[liberalnurse]

191. Apparently not......

student and became enraged when the other boy refused, according to a report.

A police officer had to board the bus and used a Taser on the boy after the boy head-butted her when she tried to restrain him, police said.

[Missy M]

2. Should we just let the 12 year old boy get away with his...

outrageous behavior? What else is there to do if he couldn't be restrained. I am tired of hearing "he is taking medication for behavior problems" and that excuses everything.

[WildClarySage]

3. Why is it all of a sudden that police are now unable to restrain

12 year old children and 70 year old women?

[Algorem]

4. donut diet?

[ConfuZed]

93. Remember this was a female cop...

and we don't know her exact size but there are alot of smaller famale cops working.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

98. Pardon the pun, but that's a cop-out, IMHO. She had to pass certain....

...physical testing to become a cop in the first place, and before they put her on the street, she no doubt had to have received training on subduing suspects, and/or defusing situations that had gotten out of hand.

My best guess is she lost control after being head-butted and used the taser as a "get-even".

[kodi]

112. yeap.

hate to say it, but if she can't handle a 12 year kid, how will she handle a 300 pound man? taser? of course.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

122. She'll probably opt for her handgun against the 300-pounder.

[ConfuZed]

182. You can't exactly *handle* an out of control 300lb man...

if you're only 130lb or is there something I'm missing?

[liberalnurse]

192. If need be...sure.

If a suspect is enraged, non-compliant....I say, they have escalated a situation to the level of threat.

[LiberalFighter]

204. Common sense approach...

Get all the other kids off the bus. Then deal with the boy.

I remember in high school having to deal with a fellow student in football that was late for practice. He demanded that I give him one of the hand dummies and I told him no. He charged me and I just pushed him aside. We both were not muscle bound or any great physique but it was a piece of cake to just side step him and watch him fall to the ground.

A police officer should have the training to know how to physically manipulate especially kids.

[LiberalFighter]

205. Couldn't allow parents on the bus???

More police arrived about seven minutes later and dispersed the crowd, including the boy's guardian, who said she could have handled the boy if she had been allowed on the bus.

The busing company, SBS Transit, does not allow parents or guardians on buses.

****

Let's see now. If the police are called to an incident who has the authority to make decisions concerning it? The bus company or the police? If the police have a tool that they can use to help them deal with the situation shouldn't they use it? A parent or guardian should be given the opportunity if they are there.

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. Yeah, taser him instead.

:eyes: What did police do BEFORE tasers existed? Tasering a child is uncalled for.

[JAbuchan08]

7. Frankly, I think the police should be physically capable of

restraining a 12 year old boy. A taser could kill an adult, to risk using it on a child is simply ridiculous.

[Algorem]

9. Ranger Walker can beat down a whole roomful of karate-choppers,they

can't handle a 12-year-old.HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!There should be a new cop show,"Sergeant Wimpass,Taser Patrol"

[JAbuchan08]

82. No doubt. I'm sorry if an officer can't restrain a 12 year old

(I can think of a couple of cases where this *might* be the case), than that officer should consider calling for back-up. Its not like the kid was some big physical threat. I definitely think that this officer resorted to the taser MUCH too quickly.

[okieinpain]

131. Oh I would have to see a picture of the 12 year old. My 12 year

old could kick a fully grown man's ass. no shit he was that big, and some of his friends where about the same size.

so if this female cop came up against a fully enraged kid the size of my kid a tazer, or pepper spray would have probably been her best bet. I would prefer either to a night stick or a bullet.

[JAbuchan08]

170. It just doesn't sound to me like this kid was a big physical threat

maybe the officer couldn't restrain him immediately, but it sounds to me as if the kid wasn't so big that she was afraid to even try. I dunno, it sounds to me like the officer resorted to the taser awfully quickly.

[okieinpain]

178. well the article does say that the bus driver tried to restrain the

kid and could not do it. oh I don't know there is an awful lot of people getting tasered. but I've always lived by the rule of if you fuck with the police you're going to get fucked up.

My kids know this rule and live by it and have yet to have any problems when coming into contact with them. do whatever they tell you, and will get a lawyer later if need be.

[Merope215]

175. "Sergeant Wimpass, Taser Patrol"

made me laugh out loud, on what is otherwise a very disturbing thread. Thanks for the chuckle.

[bobthedrummer]

10. Much of that "medication" is human experimentation as these powerful

drugs mostly have NOT been tested on children and cause the kinds of "behavior" they were meant to suppress. An easy and profitable method of mind control.

OTOH I've seen 12 year olds strapped with two automatics.

This headbutt was an assualt on an officer, it was her call to use the Taser regardless of age.

[AX10]

136. I don't buy into the mental "illness" crap.

Most of the time, it's just the persons temperment.

[peacetalksforall]

13. Is your question serious? What did people do before that horrible

weapon was designed?

This is another case where we don't know the whole story. The context is missing.

But, if a person really wanted to they could create some scenarios and come up with various solutions.

Are we abandoning psychology and brains?

[converted_democrat]

14. Our "society" is fucking alot of people up. If you want to get pissed,

get pissed about that. Why do other counteries not have these problems? You need to stop blaming the victims and start blaming the cause of the problem.

[Missy M]

15. Excuse me - who was the victim in this incident?

It certainly wasn't the 12 year old. If you want to condone that kind of behavior so be it. In many cases the cause of the problem is lack of parental guidance. I am part of our society and I don't want to be blamed for that kids behavior.

[converted_democrat]

22. You ever stop to think??????????

What has occurred in this child's life that he sees this as acceptable behavior? Kids that have happy loving childhoods rarely act like this. All kids act up, but this is extreme. People don't act like this for no reason. He's 12 for god's sake. That women had options and picked the wrong one out of frustration.

Back when parents could actually be parents, back before everyone in this country had to work 90 hours a week to get by, we didn't have these problems. Also, I know this area, and crack and unemployment are out of control. This child like many, won't even have a chance. I'm sure tasering him fixed it all though. Right?

[Missy M]

27. Let's see now...

The boy took someone else's goods, hit the other boy, the bus monitor couldn't restrain him, he butt headed the police officer and threatened to kill her, the bus was surrounded by screaming people and she had other options. Did you ever stop to think that others could have been seriously injured over this 12 year olds violent actions. If this boy sees his actions as acceptable behavior then perhaps he should have different guardians. This kind of behavior simply cannot be condoned.

[converted_democrat]

34. You don't even care WHY, he's acting like that?

Life is cause and effect. Something caused this. And until we fix the cause we're going to keep seeing the effect multiplied all over America. Period.

[Missy M]

37. Of course I care why he is acting like that -

I have a pretty good idea of why he is the way he is. I wish every child had a wonderful upbringing and perhaps incidents like this wouldn't happen so often. I wish we could all make a decent wage so there was no poverty, that we could all live in fine houses, eat good food, have the best medical care for all. I wish I could be the one to make it happen. In the end we still can't condone that behavior and just let it go by, its not right.

[PA Democrat]

103. Yes, we can't "condone" that behavior, but perhaps there are other more

suitable and less dangerous ways to teach the child that his behavior is unacceptable than a taser gun.

[slaveplanet]

176. You care not about the facts

which won't be fully known until trial.

I have a pretty good idea of why he is the way he is

You have no Idea , why he is the way he "is". He recently lost his mother. It's alleged, that the boy that was being hit, insulted or joked about the memory of his mother. The guy is obviously going through tough times. No excuse of course, but then neither is there an excuse for electro-shock therapy.

In the end we still can't condone that behavior and just let it go by

I agree , the officer should be brought up on charges of police brutality, and civilly sued for everything she owns.

[liberalnurse]

194. I don't give a hoot either....

The goal was to contain the enraged brat.

[converted_democrat]

207. I'm sure you don't give a hoot, I 've read many of your posts. It's

clear how you feel, and I feel differently. I care about all people, not just the ones I feel a "worthy." People wonder what's wrong with America.... He just lost his mother for god's sake. How cold can you be?

[tx_dem41]

208. So, you wanted the policewoman to perform an analysis of the..

kid's background before acting? Oy vey.

[converted_democrat]

210. Everyone on the outside of the bus that was protecting him knew it.....

that's why they were trying to protect him. Give me a break. If she would have talked to anyone standing outside of the bus, she would've known. Last I knew, police are supposed to gather info before they act, not just break out the taser.

[tx_dem41]

211. I'm not talking about the taser. You and I are talking procedure.

[converted_democrat]

213. Actually, my beef is with liberal nurse, but let's talk procedure...Talk

away. I'd LOVE to talk to you about procedure with you. I'm dying to find out how you feel.

[leesa]

42. So you think he should be stun gunned to death. Sweet.

Don't you think adults should begin ACTING like adults?

[Missy M]

45. Did I ever say he should be stun gunned to death..

and he wasn't! In other words adults should act like adults but this kids behavior and actions was just a matter of "kids will be kids'.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

57. All it takes is one shock to kill an adult. The police were lucky that...

...the boy wasn't permanently injured.

And yes....if the adults stop acting like adults, how can we expect children to act like children are supposed to act?

[Missy M]

60. How do you know the boy he hit and the police officer he..

butt headed couldn't have been permanently injured?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

70. Oh, please. This is a 12-year-old without a weapon of any kind....

...except an empty CD case.

When I grew up, kids under 12-years-old got into fights on a regular basis and I never saw anyone suffer any more than a broken nose and/or some teeth knocked out.

And if a full-grown cop couldn't even handle a child in a confrontational situation, they didn't last long on the force.

[Missy M]

We think differently - I think broken noses and teeth knocked out..

is pretty serious. I didn't want it to happen to my children and I didn't want my children to do it to anyone. Some 12 year old kids are just as big or bigger than some full-grown cops.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

86. We think a LOT differently. You think tasering a 12-year-old is okay....

...and I clearly do not.

You think broken noses and a few teeth knocked as being pretty serious, something which I clearly stated was the worst injuries that I had ever seen when I was growing up. IMHO, I think the stab/gunshot/blunt force trauma that we see today are much more serious.

IMHO, I think the use of force by police nationwide has escalated to the point where some people now believe it's okay to use a taser (50,000 volts of electricity) to subdue children. No, IMHO, that's NOT okay, and NEVER will be okay.

[Missy M]

63. The majority of children I come in contact with don't act the way..

this boy acted. Most children are good, kind and loving and I would say that is because of the adults around them.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

67. But you're STILL going have a small percentage of kids that will....

...be a problem to some degree. And sometimes it has absolutely nothing to do with how the child is raised.

The police have evidently forgotten how to deal with situations like this, or if not, then they've started to use the taser as a shortcut to "resolving" situations.

With the number of deaths reported nationwide, why is the taser still being used? And why is it being used on children?

[Occulus]

100. And isn't nice to know if they DO act that way

the cops will 'shock and awe' them?

Sheesh.

[goddess40]

59. until they can control the voltage on those things they shouldn't use them

Stun guns emit a huge shock that has killed and they shouldn't be used until they can be adjusted - maybe they could give a warning shock.
Regardless they shouldn't be used on minors nor the elderly, this clearly falls under excessive force.

The officer should be able to protect herself but only with the minimal amount of force necessary - I'd like to know how this got so out of hand in the first place.

[tx_dem41]

123. The shock is minimal in a properly operating taser gun.

The voltage might be high, but the current (amperage) is quite, quite low (.04 milli-amperes from what I've read). So, don't get hung up on 50,000 volts. That doesn't mean anything without the current to conduct.

[slaveplanet]

177. wrong

these x26 taser's are 2.1 milliamps ....and the police department train with the stock 2 second setting when they subject their officers to the electrocution.....But most now have the special modified software that Taser supplied them.

Late on Friday, the company issued a statement denying that it had introduced a new model or boosted the power output. Rather, Taser said it was providing software that lets the X26 maintain full power for five seconds of discharge. Prior versions delivered full power for two seconds, then stepped down.- January 22 2005,Reuters

[tx_dem41]

184. "Electrocution".....WRONG

From m-w.com:

1 : to execute (a criminal) by electricity
2 : to kill by electric shock

So they kill their officers during training?....Right


BTW, thanks for the exact number. I did the math. Not many volt-amps at all.

[slaveplanet]

203. OK- electro-shock

but, electrocution will happen soon enough , once they incorporate the 5 second software into enough departments. Of course they'll blame it on a heart problem or cover it up completely when this happens.

[Occulus]

99. He COULD have been. "unable to restrain" is not an excuse

for what would be murder under ANY other circumstances.

The only reason it wouldn't be in this case is because the killer would be wearing a badge.

I don't think police should have these weapons. I think they should be made a great deal less powerful if they're going to continue to use them.

Mace doesn't kill. Pepper spray doesn't kill. Even a bullet to the foot will very likely not kill. But tasers can and do kill, even when used properly, and it doesn't seem to matter where they hit when they do kill. Moreover, one never, ever knows whether a single taser hit will kill the subject being tased. It's a total roll of the dice.

I don't want police playing the electronic equivalent of Russian Roulette with me or anybody else- and that's exactly what it is: Russian Roulette.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

51. And what was the boy going to use to "kill" the police officer?....

...Did you even stop to read what you wrote before you posted it?

[Occulus]

105. police have a VERY loose definition of "assault"

I got slammed up against the wall of my own home during a simple noise complaint for "threatening an officer" and was told I could be sent to jail... for trying to get the attention of the officer in question by tapping him on the shoulder with the cap end of a ballpoint pen.

Reasonable people often do not agree with the police definitions of assault, but try getting that to change....

clarification: I'm talking about what they call 'assault' to themselves, not between citizens that are not police.

[AX10]

128. True. We need to reign in police officers.

[Occulus]

174. but I also don't necessarily think 'reign in' is the appropriate term

Clearly, something needs to be done. I think one thing we as a society need to get away from is our notion that punishment should always be given for every misbehavior. It's counterproductive and only invites a resentment of the very authority which governs us as a people. I think we all would agree that is wrong.

However, police at the same time must be allowed to apprehend criminals and defend themselves in the process. Were we to perform research into exotic restrainment techniques, we may be able to find a way to remotely restrain an individual without resorting to any invasive or painful method; I'm thinking of a gun, for example, that shoots a thick, quickly-solidifying liquid, for example; something which would almost immediately render a subject immobile without any pain whatever.

Puniticians do not want that. They want pain, suffering, and stigmatization throughout the entirety of the criminal justice system- which itself is a joke, as we're more interested in punishment than we are in justice.

And so it goes.

[AX10]

197. I agree with you. I have NEVER complained...

about officers using aggressive force with violent criminals (standoffs, for example). In those cases the subject has been killed many times. It's unfortunate, but I defend the police without question due to the circumstances in those cases. What I don't like is that the stun gun is being used in places where force would never be used before. If you don't immediatly comply or yell at an officer, they use the taser. That is UNCALLED for.

Yes, the policiticans would not touch this because they think that pain is a good form of punishment for everything done wrong. Is going over the speed limit one time worthy of corporal punishment. Hell NO!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3833929&mesg_id=3835648&page=

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. Do you have children of your own?

[Missy M]

55. Yes I do..

they are all adults and I can say they never acted this way as children. Had they acted the way this boy acted they would have been in BIG TROUBLE.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

65. You never SAW them acting in any way that you felt was out of line....

...just as I never SAW my 20-year-old do anything that was out-of-line.

The plain fact is, you don't know how your children behaved when you weren't around any more than I do.

The fact that their behavior never resulted in you hearing about it doesn't mean that they never behaved badly...they just never got caught.

[Missy M]

66. I think if my children had been involved in an incident like the one

we are debating I would have known about it. I did not say they never did anything out of line I said - If they had acted the way that kid acted they would have been in BIG TROUBLE. Did you discipline your kids when they were young? It is obvious by my statement that when they were out-of-line they were disciplined.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. Yes...I disciplined my children when they were young,...

...and I'm still doing so today with my 7 and 4 year olds.

And no, I never questioned whether or not you disciplined your children when they were younger...where did that come from?

And what does any of that have to do with the police officer tasering the 12-year-old?

[Missy M]

77. I don't know - you are the one who brought it up!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

90. I asked if you had children of your own as a follow-up to the question....

...that I had posed earlier as to whether or not you thought it would have been okay for one of your children to be tasered.

You sidestepped that question by stating how well disciplined your children had been while they were growing up.

Again, how would you have felt if one of your own children had been tasered?

[Missy M]

104. I don't know how I would have felt or even now how I would feel..

if one of my children were tasered. I would prefer that to them being shot or beat to a pulp. I could ask you question after question on a variety of subjects "how would you have felt if...." and you probably would not know the answer if it had never happened to you. I was not sidestepping anything as is obvious by the amount of replies I have had to make. I merely mentioned that my children were disciplined, let me ask you, is that a bad thing?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

120. You're trying to sidestep again, aren't you? Why can't you simply....

...state that you would feel awful if one of your children had been tasered when they were 12-years-old? And how would you feel if one of children was killed by the use a taser?

Your question as to whether or not disciplining children "is a bad thing" is IMHO, a rather weak attempt on your part to redirect the conversation. Re-read my post where I plainly stated that I disciplined my oldest when she was little, and still discipline my younger children.

[Missy M]

169. Let me simply state AGAIN.....

I don't know how I would feel if my child had been tasered at age 12. It NEVER happened.

Let me ask you a question - How many people in the US have been killed by a Taser Gun?

My problem, and it is obviously not yours, is I hate bullies. I am anti-bush (he's a bully), anti-guns, anti-war, anti-violence, anti death penalty etc. The 12 year old was violent and a BULLY.

I would like to have the statistics of how many people in this country are killed each year by bullies. Wives and girlfriends killed by bully and violent husbands and boyfriends (and sometimes the other way around). I would taser gun those people all day long. How many children are killed each year by bullies, whether it be a parent or another child and by children I also mean teenagers. I would taser them all day long to stop it. A young man in my area was recently killed by 5 bullies when he was simply moving into a new apartment (they had the wrong person)and it was over drugs (which he did not do). The upstanding young men who beat him to death are (bullies)but after all they had a bad life so we must excuse them. I'm sorry if I had been around I would have tasered them all day long. If I was on the jury that will convict them I WOULD NOT VOTE FOR THE DEATH PENALTY. We have got to stop bullies.

[tx_dem41]

30. I am blaming the cause of the problem (in this story).

It was the 12 yo kid wasn't it? Without seeing video, I can't say that he should have been tasered...my guess is that he didn't. But, he was the cause of the problem of the first place.

People should take personal responsibility for their own behavior. You discredit and patronize people when you try to blame their actions on society.

[converted_democrat]

89. No way, it's blaming who's really in the wrong..............

You and I have not seen eye to eye on much, so I don't expect you change your mind. We as a society are failing our children and the quicker we realize that, the better. We are betraying the future of our country. Society has blame in this, the boy has a blame in this, but, the "leaders" of our country have the most blame of all. See post #83.

[tx_dem41]

116. I agree that society has "failed our children". That doesn't excuse..

bad behavior as some want to do on this thread. That would be another example of "failing our children".

[converted_democrat]

157. I'm not saying this kid does not have blame in this, I'm not saying he

does not need to be punished, but tasering a child is wrong. People have options, but they don't want to use them. Chances are this kid has not had a fair shake at life. Taserering him into submission isn't the answer. No one seems to understand the recent outbreaks of school violence, and shootings. I understand it, and if you understood it, you'd realize we have a big problem on our hands until we make America a good place for ALL it's citizens. As the line between rich and poor grow things will only get worse. Mark my words.

[tx_dem41]

168. And, I'm not saying that he should have been tasered...

check what I wrote.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

95. I don't think anyone is questioning whether or not the kid was....

...misbehaving, but I do think that most of us are questioning the use of a taser on a 12-year-old child. In fact, with the number of deaths nationwide due to tasers approaching 80, I'm not convinced that they should be used in ANY case.

[converted_democrat]

83. I understand your frustration, but your still missing the bigger picture.

The attitude that "I'm tired of excuses" does nothing, but damage our country further. As time goes by, and our society sinks farther, we will see more and more outrageous behavior. With the attitude of "I'm tired of excuses" we end up blaming the person who perpetrated the act solely, and not the real culprit. (I.E. the person or persons that cause and allow the sinking of society.) This boy is 12, the people destroying our country are how old? (what is the average age of the PNAC and other Republican leaders in our country?) We are allowing them to both cause the problem and get away with it. The worst part comes when we make new laws and regulations stiffer, to "make sure" that know one gets away with this, again. We as a people lose more freedom because of a few people. Then, as our society sinks farther, more people flip out, and we make more laws, until we don't have any freedoms. People are flipping out. People have good reason to flip out, we have a serious economic problems on our hands, we can't afford a doctor, we can't afford food, we can't afford to buy gas for our cars to get to work, we can't spend time with our families because we have to work 2 jobs or 80 hours a week at one, we have no privacy, and each family has an average credit card debt of?
Things are only going to get worse. We need to blame the real culprits, the people who steal our money for their corrupt cronies for their illegal wars. Can you imagine what good could have come for that money? College for anyone who can't afford it. Food for the hungry in our country as well as others. Health insurance for everyone. Can you imagine? But look where we are now. Blaming people who didn't have a chance, because of the wrongs of those who were given the best chances in the world.

[leesa]

40. Have the police and other adults become incapable of restraining children?

Man, I am so glad I am not the child of someone like you!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. And I'm tired of posters on this board that support the use of...

...a "non-lethal" weapon on children. Oh, and by the way, the taser is now responsible for the deaths of about 80 people nationwide.

Two questions for you:

1. How would you feel about this situation if your child was the one being tasered?

2. What did the police use to subdue children before they had tasers?

[kimchi]

81. Oh please...

Why was a policewoman on the bus in the first place? MUCH worse happened on our buses 20 years ago and no one ever called the police. The driver either let us take care of it ourselves, or pulled the bus over and dealt with the child, or turned the bus around and took us all back to school so the principal could deal with it.

A kid was kicked in the HEAD and no one called the police. We went to the hospital, then back to school to be picked up by our parents. Needless to say the kid was suspended for two weeks and had to pay medical bills. And he stopped bullying people.

But he should have been shocked with electricity. Yeah, I see the utility in that. We taser people who hit people to show that violence is wrong. Got it.

[The Stranger]

92. Get away with what?

Has everyone lost their fucking minds? It is a CD case we are talking about here.

[HeeBGBz]

160. For one, they don't need to Taser to restrain

My, my, how did the police ever manage problems before the taser?

Fucking ridiculous.

[slaveplanet]

165. Uhm- He was defending the honor

of his dead mother....the CD case had nothing to do with it. The medication was for Asthma...I know you feel he should be electrocuted for that. You've made that quite clear

[alfredo]

181. Pepper Spray is just as effective and would not risk killing the kid.

The kid needed to be restrained, but potential lethal force may have been too much.

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joey Liberal]

5. The kid deserved it

I would have tazered the kid too. And, I would have maced and arrested anyone (child or adult) that tried to interfere. The kid asked for it. The officer has the right to defend herself.

[Missy M]

8. Thank you! The officer does have the right to defend herself.

We still need to maintain law and order in this country. The more outrageous story is that a 12 year old would act this way toward his fellow student, adults and the law.

[Joey Liberal]

11. You are welcome

Unless people have ever done police or security work, they do not understand that officers have a right to defend themselves. A head butt is so dangerous, even from a kid, because that officer could have been knocked out. If a kid is crazy enough to head butt a police officer, then the kid is tazer worthy. What kind of kid would do such a thing? It probably caught the officer off guard.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joey Liberal]

32. They would be law abiding and courteous

And because I have no doubt that Missy is gorgeous, they would be good looking kids too:).............

[Missy M]

43. How did you know?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

69. yeah you both can share a double-wide

and make as many babies as you want:)

[seabeyond]

102. that was funny n/t

[Ms. Clio]

172. Aww, isn't that sweet?

DU really does bring people together. All types of people.

Enjoy yourselves.

[in_cog_ni_to]

38. Don't want to eat your breakfast, Junior Joey?

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! (taser going off) Now will you eat your breakfast?

What? You say you don't want to go to bed, Missy Jr.? BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! (taser going off) Now will you go to bed?

You're throwing a fit, 2 year old Joey Jr? BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! (taser going off) Will you stop throwing a fit?

You don't want to do your homework, Missy Jr.? BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! (taser going off) Will you do your homework now?


If the children live through it, they will be in deeeeeeeeeeeeeep therapy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. This situation was a bit more serious than

a kid not wanting to do his homework or throwing a temper tantrum. You are not helping your argument by using these examples. :eyes:

[in_cog_ni_to]

68. I was making a point. I know how serious this situation is.

:eyes:

:sarcasm: It's called sarcasm.

[proud2BlibKansan]

150. Thank you for the clarification n/t

[seabeyond]

16. does the boys behavior warrant death

there have been enough unexplained deaths that now everytime a cop pulls that out they have to ask themselves if the aggressors behavior is worth death.

i happen to think the behavior of the boy is not punishment of death.

at least with mace people arent dying

[Missy M]

18. Of course I wouldn't want someone to die for the incident..

I do not know how many deaths have been caused by Taser. If the kid had been maced it would have been the same outrage "how could you use Mace on that poor little 12 year old". Shouldn't everyone have to pay in some way for their actions? I for one find his behavior outrageous and what will he become as an adult?

[seabeyond]

29. not with a taser. get informed

there are reasons people on this board are bothered. you should be too

[Media_Lies_Daily]

111. Take a look at this 2004 chart by the Seattle-Intelligencer....

DEATHS AFTER TASER SHOCK
<http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/tasers/deaths.shtml>

Evidently, there have been more deaths since this chart was produced...must be over 100 by now.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

114. And here's a more current report....as of April 1, 2005....103 deaths....

Amnesty report slams Taser, cites 103 related deaths
<http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-04-01-taser-report_x.htm>

PHOENIX (AP) — There were 103 Taser stun gun-related deaths in the United States and Canada between June 2001 and March 2005, according to an Amnesty International report released Friday.
In the first three months of this year, there were 13 Taser-related deaths — compared with six during the same period last year, the report said.

The stun guns have been touted as less lethal than other ways of subduing combative people in high-risk situations, but Tasers have come under increasing scrutiny as a number of deaths have been blamed, at least partially, on the devices.

[Joey Liberal]

20. If you attack an armed officer, you take a certain risk

Now, I also feel that tazers have been abused by law enforcement types. Mostly due to poor training. But, this kid attacked a police officer. Had the officer hit the kid with her night stick and busted his head open, what would you being saying about that? If the officer maced the kid (my preference) and he ended up in the emergency room for that, what would you be saying? I don't think the officer in question was sentencing the kid to death. I think the officer probably was trying to avoid getting head butted again.

[seabeyond]

31. the story is not what you make it out to be

attacked is not how i heard it. but regardless, we didnt have tasers in the past readily available for a cop to pull out and use at anytime. there are other ways. the police are trained for this. the line is now ok at 12 for you two. 10 next. then 8. how low are we going to go. are we going to draw the line at anytime. are there no restrictions to the police what so ever. no.....it is not ok to taser a 12 year old on a school bus

[Joey Liberal]

36. What is okay?

it is not ok to taser a 12 year old on a school bus
======
Is it okay to knock out a 12 year old on a school bus with a punch or a kick?

Is it okay to mace a 12 year old on a school bus?

Is it okay to smash a 12 year old in the head with a night stick on a school bus?

Look, the kid was out of control. He head butted a police officer. He got Tazered. He did not die. The Tazer apparently worked as it should. It stopped the kid from head butting the officer again. Nobody got hurt. The kid needs therapy.

[seabeyond]

39. i am going to take the time to respond

i am thinking probably you will immediately dismiss.

did the police officer get on the bus and a quick story from driver (that would have given the time for kid to watch and think, stop for a second.) and did the cop, in not a big deal, tell the driver and kids to get off the bus, slowly, one at a time, gather your stuff, go

that would have gotten rid of a lot of the frenzied energy that would feed this kid. would also allow him more time to stop.

then did the woman approach after getting that done, and tell the kid to sit.

now if at anytime this kid was in a frenzied animal manner ready to attack all, shoot him

did that cop sit on back of a seat higher than him, not afraid, just to chat and see what is up. that would have done the world in bringing this kid to peace
then was back up called
did she chat with boy waiting for back up'
did another cop or two, in ease and not afraid join the woman cop, showing, kid you arent going to win
then was it suggested to the boy, time to go, after having explained to boy what he would be doing. (this act of letting child know what is up, again brings to peace)

this adult failed this boy. and the reason kids are retarded (not iq, messed up emotionally) today, adults all over in this kids life has failed him

and you failed this boy

the care taker knew. she was trying to bring her voice to calm him, but his whole world was surrounded by frenzy.

the cop did not do what she could have done. when we adults are afraid of these kids, we dont do what we need to do. this boy was afraid too. the people on bus excited and afraid, the people outside angry and afraid. what do you expect to happen

are you telling me this is all that we are as a people. i am saying, we are so much more. and i am disappointed that this wasnt handled in a better way

[seabeyond]

41. i was picturing more of a stand off by then

but then if kid was still fighting other kid, that would be different. i would have to know what the police walked into.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. Let me get this straight

You are saying that the behavior of adults toward kids causes retardation????

and the reason kids are retarded today, adults all over in this kids life has failed him

[seabeyond]

50. isnt that a duh. we are after all the ones raising them

we are the adults. they are mere kids. they are not the ones with the power and authority, we are. they are the ones dependent on us to be wise and responsible and able to show them the way. if we as adults cant do it, i ask, and the kids are asking too..........why are kids expected to act in a wise and responsible manner. if adults cant even do it

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. Do you understand what retardation is?

Do you know what causes it?

HINT: It's not environmental.

I am going to assume you made a poor choice of words.

[seabeyond]

58. see and i even looked up the word the other day

i use the word not to describe a low iq person. i use the word a lot in describing, slow mixed up in an event. like i will use it on me or kids, when we space into a world that is all confusing for us. i do not use the word in the typical definition. i am sorry. more when a situation is confused, mixed up. i know that isnt the proper definition

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. It is an insult

and very offensive to those of us who work with persons who have mental retardation.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

121. we have already clarified that is not what i was saying

and you still argue and accuse.

what evah

[proud2BlibKansan]

139. You tried to clarify

I am merely showing you your choice of the word 'retarded' was a poor one.

[seabeyond]

140. i disagree

but it is amazing you focused on that one word, ignoring all i said. it is evident that other posters didnt have such an adverse reaction to the word i chose.

[proud2BlibKansan]

159. The funny thing is

I agree with you that it was wrong to taser this kid. I just don't think it helps the argument to call anyone 'retarded'. That word is just as offensive as the N word to many people.

[donsu]

129. a toxic environment does cause retardation

nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

173. Yes but it isn't too common

Most cases are genetic or very soon after birth.

Technically, environmental factors cause brain injuries, not retardation. But you could find experts to debate this point.

[EFerrari]

52. I agree 100%. As soon as that officer used a weapon on this kid,

she lost. Because what he learned was not accountability but brutality.

[seabeyond]

61. and then you have that, absolutely.

he was tasered as an animal. he feels that much more like an animal. that is what we are creating in ourselves and our children.

[_testify_]

118. EXACTLY RIGHT

Any adult, cop or not, should attempt to defuse the situation by acting like an ADULT! Clearing the bus, attempting to talk to the kid (even if he is antagonizing the officer, I doubt he would have headbutted her if she had kept some distance between them), calling for backup...is that an unreasonable amount of effort to ensure that you WON'T have to go home and tell your spouse how you tasered a middle-schooler today?

There are 101 things that could have been done that did not involve the use of force. It is a police officer's responisibility to ensure that all options have been expended before reaching for anything other than a radio.

[Mairead]

96. "Had the officer busted the kid's head open with her night stick"

She would have been up for retraining, if not on a charge, because that's not how the stick is to be used. Had she been doing her job, she would have used her stick to let the air out of the kid (jab in the solar plexus) or disable his arms (hit to the upper arms or, if need be, to the collarbones). That's how sticks are meant to be used, and it would have been a lot less dangerous than tazering him.

[seabeyond]

97. but, maybe not as easy n/t

[WildClarySage]

132. Yes, and twelve year olds are certainly mature and emotionally

experienced enough to appropriately evaluate the risks involved and decide a course of action appropriately.

Hell, my eleven year old can't even evaluate the risks of not brushing his teeth after every meal!

[seabeyond]

134. whats with that.

i send the kid in twice a day to brush. and i say, teeth are yellow what is that. ya....watched the other night, didnt have brush flat on teeth.....had to teach all over again how to brush his teeth

[SlavesandBulldozers]

64. yes she does

she is also trained in submission-style holds, but she didn't resort to this training, why? she also has an ASP baton that she is trained to use. she didnt use this, why?

[Occulus]

107. So suppose we develop a drug

that makes kids calm, cool, and reasonable- but with the unfortunate side effect that .8% of children who take it drop dead.

It's made law that your children must take this drug (.8% is considered an 'acceptable risk', ignoring the 480,000+ kids lying dead because of it), it is administered by school officials, homeschooling parents are considered "school officials" for the purposes of this law, and refusal to administer the drug carries a $5000 fine, three to five years in prison, or both.

Do you refuse to allow this drug to be given to your child?

[seabeyond]

108. spraygun full of that trust drug........n/t

[Occulus]

109. See?

They just don't much seem to care at all, do they?

[slaveplanet]

166. The most outrageous aspect

is your lack of understanding of the situation.

The instigator(not the accused) insulted his dead mother....20 neighbors who witnessed the situation on scene do not share your beliefs, and they showed their displeasure by breaking the bus's windows.

[AX10]

198. They broke the windows of the bus?

[slaveplanet]

201. yes

$550 worth of damage to the door and glass according to the incident report.

[Malikshah]

190. Fine give us all tasers and we'll go at it.

Get a grip on reality.

One more step on the road to fascism.

Screw the cop for using a taser. There's no excuse beyond cowardice.

[lostnfound]

12. Would you have shot him?

Sometimes tasers are a death sentence.

[Joey Liberal]

17. No, the Tazer was apparently good enough

Yes, Tazers sometimes can be a death sentence. Frankly, I've never used one. Personally, since I was well schooled in the fine art of self defense and trained/sparred regularly in a karate class, I was able to take out people that attacked me without using mace. In two cases, my assailents wanted me arrested and wanted to sue me. Even though they attacked me. I was not a police officer - I did security work - unarmed.

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. The point IS

the taser could have killed the child. It kills adults. My goodness. What have we become?

[Joey Liberal]

24. Maybe the kid should not have attacked the officer?

What do you say about a society that produces 12 year olds that attack police officers? The kid could have died from being nailed by her nightstick too. The one I carried was very nasty. Extra large. I will say that the officer probably got caught by surprise. She probably thought she was just breaking up a fight between schoolkids and did not expect to be attacked.

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. Maybe the female cop could have called for

a big burly cop dude? If she couldn't handle the kid, she should have called for help. Tasering him could have killed him. The child obviously has problems and is being medicated for them. That's no excuse to taser him with the possibility of killing him. I have a 12 year old son who would never even THINK about attacking an officer. His State Police officer brother and Special Agent brother wouldn't look kindly on it. ;) Then again, he doesn't have behavioral problems which he's being medicated for. I think she should have called for help if she couldn't handle the situation herself.

[Castilleja]

144. An intolerant society

is what we have become, by the looks of things. This kid was 12; it is well known that children are not capable of reasoning as an adult would. I think the Tazer is being used as a crutch by authority rather than spend time and energy on more thoughtful methods of control.

[Freddie Stubbs]

179. Sometimes restraining someone is too

Perhaps the police just should have let him go?

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

101. Would you like to see your own kids get tasered? Or do you have any...

...children of your own?

That officer had to have been trained in a number of approaches to difficult situations...why did she resort to using the taser? Her life wasn't being threatened by a mere 12-year-old child, was it?

And had you done what you stated you would have done, you would have found yourself suspended from the police force and probably fired.

All I see in your post is a bad case of "message board courage".

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mikehiggins]

21. Okay, the kid was out of control

Whatever the meds were he was taking, somebody ought to switch them.

I hate to think of a kid being tazered, but getting bludgeoned with a nightstick, or gunned down, would probably be worse.

All in all, judging from the article posted, it seems like the cop did choose a less deadly form of defense than she could have.

Can't argue with that.

[notadmblnd]

23. this is the statement that bothers me

Rivera said he understands that people might not like police using stun guns and handcuffs on children, but it's a sign of the times.

"It's a different type of kid out there today," he said. "But we also have to consider the type of force we use against kids that are out of control."

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

"It's a sign of the times"? WTF time is it? A different kind of kid? Bullshit! The boy was tasered in the chest. If this woman can't handle a 12 yr old, she should not be a cop!

[Beaver Tail]

26. Another View

I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the 12 yr old. When enraged a child can become VERY strong from the adrenalin rush. It is clear that he head butted her (very painful) so had an obvious distain/disrespect for her authority. Bullies like this (and I know how it is or be a victim of a bulling because I was the geek in school) don’t deserve our sympathy. In the old days it would of taken a few officers to restrain this child and an injection (which has dangers of its own) or beaten with a club to calm the child down but how much room do you have in a bus to get a few officers in there? This child was a danger to everyone and I don’t feel the least bit sorry for this punk ass loser.

The officer didn’t have much of a choice here without assaulting/handcuffing the child which would ALSO cause a public outrage and if she did nothing there would be an outrange that she did noting. It seems to be that ANYTIME the law becomes involved in with children performing criminal acts it is a lose/lose situation for the police (my dad was a police officer) but the real point is being missed here. WHERE ARE THE PARENTS IN ALL OF THIS?

Parents need to take the responsibility of our children’s behaviour. We are their first role models and leave the biggest impressions on their lives. What we teach them from a young age is embedded into their way of thinking for the rest of their lives. When a child becomes like this it is usually not because of a chemical imbalance (but this is sometimes the case) but because they have LEARNED that acting like this is ok.

Also, coming from a person (me) who has ADHD I can testify that medication in many cases is not there to fix the problem but to mask it. We need to deal with it instead of hide from it behind medications. It has just become too easy to say “medicate them” instead of deal with it.

[EFerrari]

53. Medication doesn't "fix" some problems, it helps people manage

them.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

72. "WHERE ARE THE PARENTS IN ALL OF THIS?"

the parent was trying to get on the fucking bus but was not allowed!!!!! HAHAHAHHA!!

would you like to play again? ;)

[SlavesandBulldozers]

73. "Where are the parents in all of this?"

dupe deleted

[slaveplanet]

180. Yes that is the real point

but the real point is being missed here. WHERE ARE THE PARENTS IN ALL OF THIS?

He recently lost his mother, and according to his legal guardian(who I'm guessing is in a position to know the child's mental state much more than any police officer)was in the process of defending his dead mothers honor. The headbutt is an accusation made by the police spokesman for the PlainDealer article. It is absent from any other article I've seen yet. The arresting officer's incident report claims the assault was verbal,and that he tried to disarm her after he she attempted a dry taser. This is in dispute by the guardian , who was a witness to the event, the guardian also claims that it was the officer who was using the vulgarities. It will be interesting to see that report in full, as there are 20-30 other credible witnesses. The boys guardian who witnessed the incident said it was the police officer that was choking the child not the other way around. And finally , are you in a position of judgment to go against the 20 other witnesses(mostly local neighbors) that seem to support the guardian's version of events by their action of breaking out the bus window to try and help the boy.

[Joey Liberal]

28. I'll bet the kid thinks twice before attacking a cop again

If this woman can't handle a 12 yr old, she should not be a cop!
======
This is a statement from someone with no experience in police or security work. If the officer in question had taken the kid out "Ranger Walker" style, then she would be getting complaints about excessive force too. Not all cops are Ranger Walker's. This kid learned a valuable lesson.

[EFerrari]

56. You're wrong. He learned he better have a better weapon next

time.

I had a big old acting out 12 year old, too. And we had to learn how to manage that behavior because he was going to out weigh me pretty damn quick.

And we did it without weapons of any kind and without police experience. Sheeeesh.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

78. if the cop can't handle a twelve year old

she should not be a cop.

I'll echo that statement, despite having no experience in police or security work. I'm a taxpayer, though, and I want my police to be able to handle what is essentially a schoolhouse fight without the use of a stun gun.

[AX10]

135. Bingo! Since when have schoolyard fights been handled...

with weapons???

These kids were not armed but obnoxious. The officer was out of line.

[Tomee450]

137. No,what he learned was fear and hatred of the police which

he and his family and friends will likely harbor the rest of their lives. When cops do this, they put their own lives in danger. If people begin to think that they just might be tasered by a cop, they may begin using violence first themselves. I just cannot understand why anyone would sanction tasering a twelve year old. If my relative who has had a heart condition since he was a kid had been tasered, he would have been killed. No cop has a right to kill an unarmed person, especially a child. And that is just where this is going. One of these days, a cop will use that taser and a kid will be dead. I've seen kids in vicious fights, no one called the police. They just jumped in and stopped the fight. This kid did not even have a weapon. The cop should not be on the force is she cannot handle a twelve year old.

[notadmblnd]

186. I'll bet he don't.

Most kids that are bullies and act out do so because they are abused. Abusing them more is not going to teach him respect. The most he'll learn is to not get caught next time.

I may not have worked in security.. but I've dealt with hundreds of kids and theres never been a 12 yr old I could not handle.

Every damn cop that carries a taser should have it used on themselves first.

[iconoclastic cat]

33. Return of the Superpredators!

Coming to a propaganda shop near you!

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. I hate to break it to you

but kids are increasingly violent these days. THAT part of the story I don't doubt at all. Sad, but true.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

80. i agree

so are police.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. Yes they are

Can't argue with that.

[AX10]

133. There must be something within society that is causing us...

to be more agressive. Seeing that most are becoming that way, I ask, what is going on?

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. Well, this could get me flamed

but I think the violent video games and movies certainly aren't helping. Do I think they should be banned? No way. I think parents need to be more mindful of what their kids are exposed to. We kept this crap away from our kids (as much as we could) and they are now in their 20s and neither one is violent. It wasn't easy but it did pay off.

[seabeyond]

145. i agree

and beyond. no flame here

[proud2BlibKansan]

153. Thanks

Glad we agree.

[AX10]

147. My parents discouraged us from playing video games as...

a whole, also, they discouraged us from watching MTV and becoming slaves to Pop CULTure as well as consumerism. We always discussed the issue of the day at the dinner table. By the time I was 15 I took the T.V out of my room. I had no need for it anymore. My parents did an excellent job of raising us.

[seabeyond]

148. NO tv in room EVER

lol lol. mine are 10 and 7. i have been saying for about five years, i will never put a tv in your room. a nephew and niece were allowed that,. i really didnt like it.

yes we talk about all this stuff at dinner table and everywhere else

i do let boys play games that surprisingly i didnt htink i would. but i do it for different reason. and i have boundaries. we watch little tv. tv land with opie and bewitch is about it

[AX10]

151. One of the reasons I got rid of it was that I rarely watched it....

and I wanted a desk in place of it.

[seabeyond]

155. cool

now, .....they do have a computer in their room. but again i am a real hard ass with their exploration. and their father owns a computer business so he has to stay a step ahead of the boys all the time, lol.

[proud2BlibKansan]

156. What a wonderful thing to say

I also like the way you say they 'discouraged' you rather than out and out forbid you. We did that too, knowing that if we said NO they would be more interested in what we were banning.

[AX10]

200. I agree. My parents and grandparents...

very smart, pragmatic, and worldy people. They understand how the world works and that you should set boundries, but not dictate. If you dictate, you will stir the interest in a person and that could be dangerous if they have had no experience in the past.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

71. yes THIS is the disturbing statement

i will repeat it

snip

Rivera said he understands that people might not like police using stun guns and handcuffs on children, but it's a sign of the times.

"It's a different type of kid out there today," he said. "But we also have to consider the type of force we use against kids that are out of control."

snip

[EFerrari]

74. Yep. It dehumanizes "kids" pretty well, doesn't it? n/t

[SlavesandBulldozers]

84. the kids. . . they got us surrounded. . .

we're all gonna fucking die man. . . game over man. . . game fucking over!!!

[EFerrari]

88. Thank you. I was going nuts trying to remember the ref!

First I thought David Ferrie in JFK, but then Doug pointed out there were not video games in 1963.

[proud2BlibKansan]

146. I agree that is disturbing

but I also know it's true that there is a 'different kind of kid' today. I don't agree that we need to be tasering them but we DO need to do something to stop creating these violent kids.

[Horse with no Name]

76. ANOTHER one of these "okay to use force on kids" threads

Wonder why?
However, I will make this short and not get caught in the drama of it.
Taser was excessive.
There have been bullies since school started (did you ever watch Little House on the Prairie)?
This kid was a bully--no doubt about that.
Does it warrant his potential death from the use of a Taser?
Absolutely not.
I had to do a rotation through a mental institution where you could be attacked at any point from an unarmed person.
Did they equip the nurses with Tasers?
No.
Follow me here...in a situation with psychotic meltdowns and behaviors as the norm of the day, just how did nurses keep from being injured without Tasers, stun guns, guns, etc?
Perhaps because we were trained in PMAB (physical management of aggressive behavior).
I can take anyone down to the ground in two moves that attacks me--regardless of how big or how small they are.
In the absence of weapons--which the child did not have--PMAB would have worked just fine in this instance.
I think that some of the law enforcement are just itching to use it. With approved methods in physical management there is no reason whatsoever to resort to force. By the way, PMAB done correctly does not injure ANYONE.

[EFerrari]

91. Exactly. n/t

[bluedonkey]

110. Thank you

for bringing this up.I work in a mental hospital and we have NO weapons,or anything that could be used as a weapon on the units.I don't even wear hairclips!We are trained to take an out-of-control person down.
BTW,I'm 5'1",128lbs and I never got hurt and I never hurt anybody.As police officer she should be on guard at all times,regardless who the opponent is.

[MisterP]

119. it's like something out of a Dickens novel: hundreds just stick

their noses into the air and sneer, "He should have thought better before breaking the law" or "That'll teach him to steal bread," as the ten-year-old's emaciated body twists and turns from the lamppost!
Remember that millions applauded Kent State or made puling excuses, and still do.

[AX10]

138. For that, Adolf Nixon should have been impeached!

[AX10]

141. Thank You! Could you give me more information on PMAB?

:kick:

[Horse with no Name]

187. Hi

I tried to find it--the only thing I could find on a google is trainers of PMAB.
Basically it is just using body mechanics to throw off someone's center of gravity and then using that to take them to the floor.
It takes about 2 seconds to take someone down to the floor.

On edit:
You can always use what I learned growing up on a farm.
If you stand right next to a horse that kicks butt, he can't kick you.
However, if you stand 2 feet away from a horses butt, he will nail you.
Same with a dangerous person (without a weapon). The closer you are to them the less damage they can do.
If this officer had utilized even basics of that, the child would have never been able to head butt her.

[AX10]

199. True. If you are close to the source of energy...

too little enertia is created to make a powerful force that could knock something down.

Thanks

:kick:

[Tomee450]

142. Exactly. This society is rapidly

sinking into the abyss. We now handcuff five year olds having a tantrum. Four or five adults including several cops could not handle the situation. We now taser old people, mentally ill people and children. We now try children as young as twelve as adults and send them off to prison. We also send people like Andrea Yates, obviously very mentally ill, to prison. This society has really sunk low. If we continue, we will be no different than China.

[AX10]

149. What is happening?

[seabeyond]

154. boys guardian it says

may be a parent, but sounding like not a parent. is this kid with a parent. my nehpew was with grandfather for a period of time. the parents messed up for different reasons. that boy was 12. he was so messud up without his father. just getting his father back, alone straightened out this 12 year old.

a lot of kids are being raised by extended family. most kid s are just wanting a parent, that loves them

who knows

[Tomee450]

183. I wish I knew the answer.

I find it alarming that as the brutality escalates, certain people begin to accept it, even justify it. I though ours was a civilized society.

[Orangeone]

79. I can't believe

some people think it's okay to stun gun an ill child. Behavior problems doesn't necessarily mean the kid is just "bad" or that the parents caused the behavior.

[seabeyond]

106. btw all i can still take down my almost 13 yr old nephew, i practice

and i can take down my same age niece, she is my height and thick. (all i have to do with her pretend i am tickling, lol dont think that would work for a police). physically i can take them down. we will have a wrestling match. and i can easily take down my ten year old boy. i like to see how strong he is getting, he is getting strong. i am such a pacifist, i am old and i am a female. i know their strength and ability

my point, i do have a feel for this age child, ..... though we have never done this with the kids in out of control anger. but i am not a trained police officer. trained in physical confrontation. so i would imagine there is a whole lot i dont know.

[MojoXN]

113. Misconception about pepper spray...

Yes, pepper spray/mace CAN kill you if you have breathing problems, even such common conditions as asthma. As someone else pointed out, what did the police do before tasers or pepper spray? Their jobs, correctly, that's what. The electrochemical compliance techniques that are in vogue today are no substitute for good old-fashioned police training and common sense, both of which are notoriously in short supply these days.

MojoXN

[AX10]

130. My question is, can repeated tasering cause the breathing...

muscles to tense up and not work properly?

[MojoXN]

167. Yes, AX10.

Diaphragm seizure is rare, but it can occur. More common are heart related complications. If the person being tazed has an irregular heart beat, defective valve, enlarged heart, or a pacemaker, high voltage electrical shock at any amperage can cause cardiac arrest and death within minutes. There was a case of an obese 41 year old man in Cinncinatti being tazed and dying within minutes. I personally believe that tasers present too much medical risk to be used in all but the most extreme cases.

MojoXN

[AX10]

195. There was a case in Washington state in which a Russian...

imigrant was shocked 17 times for not signing an "animal control citation".

It's no different from Sadam Hussain! Why the hell do you need to shock someone 17 times???

[Catherine Vincent]

115. Are these cops just looking for an excuse to use their stun guns?

Geeze!

[donsu]

124. tasers are a new thing - adults have been restraining kids without them

since the dawn of time. and anybody else who is a danger to others.

a taser is a torture tool when used on humans.

[Reptilian]

125. Get used to it. PIGS have got unlimited powers thanks to bush.

[AX10]

126. Fire the cop! I'm sorry, but how can an adult police officer not be able.

to restrain the kid with our parylizing them, causing them to fall to the ground?
:wtf:?

There are many decent and law abiding/enforcing officers out there. This cop is NOT one those many! The taser is being used as an easy way out for the cops.

[AX10]

127. The 'Taser Gun' is being used where force was never used...

before. This is either a sign of LAZY Police or they are having fun abusing their power.

If the 12 year old had a weapon, per say, "knife" we would be in a different situation. Do you know how many fights I have observed in the schoolyard where the teachers have broken it up without the police?!?

This was uncalled for. Suspend the officer. Period!

[slaveplanet]

152. Mourning Journal

LORAIN -- The Lorain Police Department continues to investigate an incident in which a 12-year-old boy was Tasered by a Lorain police officer Thursday afternoon.

Police said yesterday there are discrepancies between the official police report and the accounts given by the boy's family and people in the neighborhood who witnessed the incident as to what happened once police arrived at the East 30th Street and Vine Avenue scene.
Cambarare said people started to pound on the windows and door of the bus when they couldn't gain entrance. According to the police report, there was $550 in damages done to the glass in the front door.

Goodson said she tried to tell Cockrell that the boy is asthmatic and requires medication. She said she asked Cockrell to let her on the bus so that she could settle him down. She disputed Cockrell's claim that the boy was swearing at her and said it was Cockrell that was doing the swearing. The prongs did not penetrate his skin although he did turn around and place his hands behind his back while still swearing at Cockrell, according to the report.

Goodson and her ward did not deny that he was fighting. Goodson said the boy got into a fight when the other boy started talking about her ward's mother, who is deceased. She said her ward confronted the other boy after he continued to egg the boy on.
''(Her ward) doesn't need a CD case,'' Goodson said. ''He has everything he needs at home.''

Goodson said due to her ward's asthma, the heat and the confined spaces in the bus, there is no way he could have assaulted Cockrell or resisted arrest. She accused Cockrell of choking the boy and said the officer didn't know how to properly handle the situation.
''We want the police officer to apologize,'' Goodson said. ''She went about it the wrong way.''

http://tinyurl.com/cfomr

[slaveplanet]

158. What head Butt?

How come this report fails to mention a head butt?...makes you wonder , doesn't it...

According to Cockrell's incident report, the boy used vulgar language and threatened the officer several times as she tried to restrain him after fighting with another 12-year-old on the bus.

[slaveplanet]

162. More MJ- That's inexcusable! Op ED

Officer uses Taser gun on boy, 12

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14672610&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46371&rfi=8

LORAIN -- A Lorain police officer used a Taser gun to subdue a 12-year-old sixth-grade boy who became unruly during a fight on a school bus about 2:30 p.m. yesterday, according to Lorain Police Chief Cel Rivera and Lorain schools spokesman Dean Schnurr.


Rivera said late last night that there was a fight on the bus, and police responded, ultimately using an X-26 Taser that uses two electric prongs to subdue subjects. The officer, who was not identified last night, will be required to fill out a ''Use of Force'' report for the incident, Rivera said.

Schnurr said yesterday that the boy became ''very unruly'' when the students were going home from Masson Elementary School on West 40th Street on the last day of school.
After the bus driver tried to calm the boy and couldn't, the bus driver called police to get the student under control, according to Rivera. The driver had stopped at East 30th Street and Vine Avenue in South Lorain, according to Rivera.

When police arrived on the scene, the boy tried to hit the officer, causing the officer to use the Taser, according to Schnurr.
Schnurr said that he didn't know why the student became unruly on the bus, or to what extent the Taser gun affected him.


Police follow up killing of pet dog with 50,000-volt Taser jolt to 12-year-old

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14679004&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46371&rfi=8

On Thursday, a Lorain police officer subdued a combative but unarmed 12-year-old boy after a fight on a school bus by zapping him with Taser electric stun gun, which packs a 50,000-volt wallop. That's inexcusable.

Instead of spinning defenses, Lorain's police should be relieved that the boy apparently was left with no more than a sore chest.

More than 100 deaths around the world have been linked to Tasers, according to investigations cited in USA Today. Ohio had two Taser-related deaths over the past few years, another study found.

With a rising nationwide incidence of police stunning students with Tasers (including a 6-year-old zapped in Florida), some school districts have restricted police use of Tasers on school grounds. Lorain school officials would be wise to insert Taser restrictions into their new safety planning. The Florida legislature is considering a ban on Tasers on school grounds.

There is no way an unarmed, asthmatic 12-year-old should be hit with a 50,000-volt jolt. Period.


http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14674468&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46371&rfi=8

Citizens of Lorain speak out

[Algorem]

161. ch. 19,Cleveland video report:

http://www.woio.com/global/video/popup/pop_player.asp?ClipID1=445023&h1=Family%20of%2012-year-old%20student%20angry%20about%20officer%27s%20use%20of%20Taser%20gun&vt1=v&at1=News&d1=104933&LaunchPageAdTag=News&activePane=info&playerVersion=9&rnd=12271970

http://www.woio.com/Global/category.asp?C=4397&nav=0rd1

Featured Videos


19 ACTION NEWS ONLINE (June 10, 2005)
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Family of 12-year-old student angry about officer's use of Taser gun
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Official in Elyria says magazine's annual survey of suburbs is unfair
11-year-old swimming at Lake Erie beach with no lifeguards drowns
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Authorities go over clues in effort to solve turnpike shooting mystery
Man passing building fire dramatically rescues woman in wheelchair
Check All | Clear All

[seabeyond]

164. not enough info n/t

[Algorem]

163. Handcuffed boy's family awaits report ,Lawsuit filed against officers, the

city, bus company

Friday, May 13, 2005
Handcuffed boy's family awaits report
Lawsuit filed against officers, the city, bus company

By Jane Prendergast
Enquirer staff writer

...But experts say those answers don't come easily. Kenneth Trump, president of National School Safety and Security Services, a Cleveland-based consulting company, said the first question should be whether those who called police tried all the verbal de-escalation techniques possible to calm a child.

"Typically, when police are called, it's a last resort," he said, and officers follow their usual use-of-force guidelines in choosing how to handle a physically aggressive subject of any age.

Cincinnati officers do not get specific training in handling young children. Most officers don't, Trump said. And handcuffing, he said, "unfortunately, is a better option than using a Taser or using pepper spray. I think that would be even less humane."

He also said bus drivers get less training in dealing with unruly children than teachers do, and that drivers who work for contract bus companies - like those for Petermann - get less training than drivers employed directly by school districts...

[MojoXN]

171. This is the problem with tasers...

You give the cops a taser, and tell them it won't hurt anyone. The manufacterers' sales pitches are heavily geared to the alleged non-lethality of tasers. In the great majority of cases, no lasting harm is done, but people have been known to die from being tazed. One instance of death by tazing is one thing, but dozens, if not hundreds of cases should have caused responsible law enforcement administrators to declare a moratorium on their use. So what do police departments do? They give the cops tazers, tell 'em that they're painful, but harmless, and to prove it they taze the cops themselves. So then, John and Jane Law go out to do their jobs with the mistaken notion that tasers are harmless.

It becomes a tool for enabling an officer's impatience. If immediate compliance isn't achieved, shock 'em. In some departments, the policy on tasers is non-existent. In others, the officers are permitted to taze people for reasons such as yelling, asking the officer questions after being told to stop, etc. How and why people arrived at the conclusion that it would be a good idea to give officers a device that electrocutes people from a distance, and then tell them that that device was completely safe and OK to use in everyday situations is beyond me.

I'm getting the hell out of this country as soon as possible. This whole business is just another symptom of the cancer that has eaten this once-great nation of ours from the inside out.

MojoXN

[AX10]

189. Bingo! If an officer commands you to jump and you don't

do so AS SOON AS THEY SAY SO or even ask a QUESTION, they pull out that "TERRORIST TASER" and hit a person so that they obey like a rabid dog. Isn't this was Hitler and Stalin wanted?

[AX10]

188. "handcuffing" him would have been the right thing to do.

No need to use an electrical "whip" on him. The taser has become an alternative to negotiating.

[The Straight Story]

193. Well, maybe that kid learned something valuable in all this

Why is it all the cops' fault? They asked, tried, and the kid still attacked.

And yeah, I used to be a cop. Worked in close quarters with people before without tasers. Not easy to control someone intent on hurting you - had the cop done physical harm and broke a leg, arm, etc would that be better?

[Bravo411]

196. The kid got off lucky, thanks to the taser.

"A crowd of 20 or 30 people surrounded the bus, pounding on windows and demanding that police leave the boy alone, the report said..."

Why? So he could continue to beat the crap out of the other kid?

The bus driver couldn't restrain the kid, so the police were called in. If the kid was in the throws of a violent outrage, simply asking him to turn around so you can put on some shiny metal handcuffs isn't going to work. The two choices were to use additional physical force, i.e. risk serious injury to the child, or use the taser. I think that this was a case where the use of the taser was justified. If the cop had used a nightstick instead, people would have been crying "why didn't they just use the taser."

[Tomee450]

206. Your argument just does not stand up.

People have been handling violent kids forever without resorting to barbarity. Any cop who cannot restrain a child, should not be on the force. There is never any justification for tasering an unarmed child of twelve. It's appalling that anyone would support such action. When the students protested in Tienanmen Square, the Chinese authorities killed some of them. By your logic, they were justified in doing so because the students did not follow orders. This kid did not follow orders, they tasered him not knowing his physical condition. They could have killed him. I guess some would just say it was perfectly acceptable to mete out capital punishment to a child. We are getting to be just like a totalitarian state. You disobey orders of the police and they have the right to kill you. I never thought this would happen in the United States. How in the world can we criticize the Chinese, North Koreans or Cubans when we are engaging in the same inhumane behavior.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

202. KICK

:KICK:

[Bouncy Ball]

209. Wow, she couldn't restrain a 12 year old?

I read another story in which a six year old was tasered.

What is up that police officers can't handle little people and the elderly anymore? Pregnant women? A woman eight months pregnant was tasered on the NECK in Florida (should never use it on the neck).

I don't like the direction this is going, period. And I will make a prediction: taser use will become more and more common and everyday people will become more and more alarmed by it. You will get tasered by simply not complying quickly enough (that's already happened).

Tasers are simply too easy, too convenient. I can see how they would help in SOME situations (I'm thinking of that huge guy who was naked, sweaty and tanked up on amphetamines I saw on Cops---took NINE police officers twenty minutes just to get him hog-tied. Lots of blood was spilled, too. Now THAT would be a case for a taser--not sure he'd feel that either, though...), but in MOST situations it's simply not called for.

Maybe soon police academies can just get rid of all training beyond the basics of tasering, handcuffing and shooting.
:shrug:

[symbolman]

214. Ever heard of a dart gun?

I think this elecrocuting people is Medival -- why don't cops carry little pea shooters that stick a dart in a person (carry different loads for body mass) and tranquilize them?

They do it to animals all the time and there's no problem at all..

a freakin blow gun costs nothing and if you've ever used one they are very accurate - they could make one that's got an air cylinder (maybe like a pellet gun) and can fire more than one dart at a time if needed..

they got stuff that would drop a bull and once they're down it just a matter of cuffing them and calling for backup to carry them to the car/paddy wagon.

Could be a whole new market here.. much more humane as well..

then you could put LSD in it and give terrorists a REAL HappyFuntime Religious experience :)