I received this a Republican & was challenged to debunk it!

[acmejack]

This piece of spam has been making the rounds again. It is amazing how every one who sends it to me claim that it was authored by an old friend. The person who sent it was the most radical of us all back in the day military early in the 70's. How people change!

Anyways, here it is:

Things that make you think a little........

1. There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January.....In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.(Actually, there were also many civilians killed in Janin Iraq, which is a better comparison - RW)

2. When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state the following. FDR...led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did.

From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman....finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never attacked us.

From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy. ...started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.

Johnson....turned Vietnam into a quagmire.

From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton...went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us.

He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

3. In the two years since terrorists attacked us President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but...

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick killing a woman.

I HAVE held a job, Howard! What about you?"

If you can read this, thank a teacher.... If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran.

[ComerPerro]

1. Why does this person support Hitler and the Nazis?

This person is a Nazi sympathizer! Reply all telling the person just that!

[LightningFlash]

2. Debunk it....And send it back to the fascist enablers.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

3. Send him this link:

www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/glenn.asp

And then tell him to shove his head up his his jingoistic ass and quit spreading lies and propoganda. And get his ass over to Iraq.

On Edit: Funny thing is, the person who sent you this didn't even get the whole piece...he has the quote from John Glenn at the bottom but no explanation for where it comes from on the top. Sad.

[acmejack]

5. He was in the service with me in 1973

I think eben * won't take him now. He danged sure wouldn't fit into his old uniform!

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

8. Figures.

Still, jingoistic, lying crap like this always pisses me off. Almost as much as those who forward it believing it to be true. (I'm not referring to you, obviously.)

[soup]

7. re: "And get his ass over to Iraq."

Yep. He'll be much safer there.

on edit: oops, should have said -
According to Point #1, he'll be much safer there.

[ComerPerro]

4. Also, mention that we defeated two world powers in one war

in almost less time than it has taken Bush to simply bring bin Laden to justice.

I never heard any stories of FDR saying he "wasn't really concerned" about Hitler and the Nazis...

[ieoeja]

39. Almost?

A couple weeks back we passed the point where it has now been longer since 9-11 than VJ day was from Pearl Harbor.

It has not been longer than since Tora Bora, however. So you would be correct in saying that we have spent almost less time NOT searching for bin Laden than we did defeating two world powers in one war.

[ComerPerro]

40. Wasn't sure on the dates and the figures

plus its all in what dates are used.

No matter what, though, its just pathetic. Bottom line.

[getmeouttahere]

6. Nothing that happens in the past can justify....

this war, which is something that repugs will always try to pull out of their ass, but...

don't go there on bin laden, freepers! The man is still on the loose and BushCo got the warning on al-qaeda one month prior to 9/11

Taliban crushed??? Sounds like it was a temporary "crushing"

Al-Qaeda crippled??? See my first point re: bin laden

Ask the people of Fallujah if they feel liberated...or the Afghans, or the rest of the Iraqi's...and even they did, do you think they want to be occupied indefinitely? We claim that the Lebanese can't have fair elections unless the foreign occupying force of Syria is out - the same logic must be applied to elections in Iraq with the U.S. occupying!

and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference how quickly we "took" Iraq if we are still occupying the country and slaughtering their people 2 years later.

[NYC Liberal]

9. Germany didn't attack us; they DECLARED WAR ON US first, thus we declared

war on THEM!

I didn't even bother looking past that.

[getmeouttahere]

11. Doesn't matter anyway, because....

maybe my WWII history is failing me, but I thought we weren't even fighting the war until after Pearl Harbor...I don't remember seeing any dates of action before 1941, am I right? Also, weren't we assisting our allies who HAD been attacked in Europe?

Based on all of this, Saudi Arabia should have been our target, IF we were going to attack any country after 9/11

[McSpazitron]

10. Here's just a few things....

From http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/articles/afghanistan.html

DETROIT VS. IRAQ
Detroit, total population from 2000 Census: 951,000
Detroit, Total Murders in 2003: 366
Average Murders per month: 30.5
Monthly Murders / Total Population: .000032
Monthly per capita likelihood of being murdered in Detroit: .000032 %
Detroit average monthly murders Per 10,000 people: .32

US TROOPS IN IRAQ
Average total US troops in Iraq: 138,000
Number of US Casualties in Iraq Since March, 2003: 1114
Average US fatalities, per month: 58.6
US Monthly Fatality rate per capita: .00042
Average Monthly Fatalities per 10,000 troops: 4.2
Ratio of likelihood of dying as a US soldier in Iraq as by murder in Detroit:
25 : 2
Therefore, a US serviceman in Iraq is 12.5 times more likely to die than someone in Detroit is likely to be murdered.

Also....

Japan DID attack us - on December 7th, 1941. The U.S. subsequently declared war on Japan. Then Germany declared war on the U.S. - On December 8th! We then declared war on Germany. So, yes, Germany never attacked us. But they did declare war on us. Should FDR have ignored that?

As for the Vietnam figures, yeah sure - but most people agree that Vietnam was a big friggin' mistake to get into also.

Clinton didn't have U.N. approval for Bosnia, but he did have NATO support. Bush didn't even have that.

And the story of the person handing Clinton Bin Laden's "head on a platter" have been pretty thoroughly debunked. The guy offering was some Sudanese private businessman who, it turns out, wasn't to be trusted and didn't have the connections he said he had. It wasn't the Sudanese government making the offer, but an earlier version of "Curveball".

Someone else can address some of the other things.

[katusha]

17. germany did attack us prior to war

1941 Oct 17

The U.S. destroyer Kearney was damaged by a German U-boat torpedo off Ice-land; 11 Americans were killed.

[newyawker99]

38. Hi McSpazitron!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[UdoKier]

12. So much bullsh** in one screed, I'll just refute one point.

"Germany never attacked us: Japan did."

Yes, but Germany was raging across Europe, attacking and conquering our allies.

How the HELL is that comparable to a disarmed nation that had stayed within its borders for TWELVE YEARS and which had UN weapons inspectors on the ground?

Almost every other thing in there is utter bullshit, except for the bit of truth that Johnson created the Vietnam quagmire. Most democrats are able to admit that Vietnam was a huge failure, if not a crime on LBJ's part.

Why the f*** are Repugs so unable to ever take their leaders to task? Could it be that they're LEMMINGS?

[flygal]

13. Here's what I sent my freeper in-laws who sent me that

What's really sad is it's from two months ago and look at the number of soldiers dead.
........

Over 1500 soldiers have died in Iraq, families losing their homes, divorcing, losing vet benefits, have to pay for their own flights home once in the U.S.; and Halliburton truck drivers make over $100,000 and stay in luxury condos, and fly first class. How the hell is that supporting our troops? How can you overlook the whole Halliburton connection and not scratch your head - that's our tax dollars!!!!! Our troops request baby wipes and food - gov. contract workers get first class meals and air conditioning while the troops are protecting THEM!

As for that email you forwarded - here are FACTS - not political talking points:

1) The city of Detroit has approximately 900,000 people. There are less than 150,000 American troops in Iraq. That works out to 1 death per every 25,714 in Detroit to 1 death per every 3846 troops in Iraq.

In other words, the fatality rate is about 7 times higher in Iraq.

2) Germany declared war on the United States following our declaration of war on Japan. Hitler hoped that Japan would break its non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union. Didn't happen.

3) Truman didn't start the war in Korea. The United Nations did...and 22 other countries joined in a true coalition.

4) Eisenhower effectively started the Vietnam war by secretly providing military assistance to the French, up through the battle of Dien Bien Phu, and then, afterwards, used the CIA to disrupt the proposed 1956 elections by attempts to destabilize the governments of both sides. The first American military "advisors" arrived in Vietnam in 1958. Kennedy wanted out of Vietnam.

The troop losses for the first two years in Iraq are within 300 of the first seven years of losses in Vietnam (1958-1965).

6) Clinton went to war with another true coalition--NATO--to stop an ongoing genocide. Saddam was in the act of...well, he had gassed some people with our chemical weapons 16 years ago...does that count?

7) In the years since Osama bin Laden killed 3,000 in New York, Bush has killed 100,000 people for no apparent good reason in Iraq -- 30 times as many as Osama. He has broken the UN Charter and is guilty of the same war crimes that got 10 Nazis hung in 1946. Does that make him 30 times the terrorist?

Saddam "slaughtering 300,000 of his own people" and "our nuclear inspectors being in North Korea" is proof that the author of this believes everything his morning drive talk radio show tells him/her. Another armchair general who believes in the war as long as someone else fights it. Pathetic. Ask Rush and O'Reilly about their military service? Or Cheney?

Also, can you please keep something in mind when you are tempted to send these: my brother is going over to Afghanistan for a year. True, we needed to go in there to fight the Taliban. But, thanks to this war in Iraq, they're sorely under funded as it's not a focal point anymore. The situation in Iraq is a very sore spot especially when we have a family member in harms way. Oh, and my brother and most of his troops (he's a Company Commander now) voted against Bush and want us out of Iraq.

[uppityperson]

14. Aren't statistics wonderful! Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Did you know that every serial killer has eaten pickles?

OK, proportional to population more people get killed in Iraq than Detroit. Does this person realize the size and population of Iraq compared to Detroit and Michigan?

Which 2 countries has Mr.bush liberated? I missed that. Um, Iraq is not "taken", and it's been much longer than 51 days, and many more people killed, and many more new terrorists made.

I learned to read at home before I went to school. Yes, I could read by kindergarten, thank you Mom and sibling rivalry. I am reading it in English, wtf does that have to do with thanking veterans? I don't follow that. I thank vets for other things.

Finally, give them this webpage and encourage them to help out, gain the gratitude of people like us:
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf

[KnaveRupe]

15. Responses:

Here are a few refutations of this crap.

FDR...led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did.

And FDR asked the Congress to declare war against the Empire of Japan on December 8th, 1941. Germany then declared war on us on December 11th.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation.

Had we used "Shock and Awe" tactics at Waco, it would have been over in 30 seconds. The Clinton Administration apparently put more value on human life than the current administration, and were still criticized by the wingnuts for "murdering" the Davidians. Remember?

Clinton...went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us.

Actually, NATO stepped into Bosnia to PUT A STOP to a war, and were successful in doing so. The US didn't act unilaterally (or with a bogus coalition of the arm-twisted and the bribed), they had an exit date, and we averted a civil war, rather than fomenting one. Furthermore, the objectives for going into Bosnia as stated to the public were legit and honorable, rather than an ever-shifting smokescreen as has been the case in Iraq.

Next?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

In essence he's using statistics as cover. And, justifying bad behavior with instances of bad behavior.

i.e, Some guy robs a bank of $1,000,000 while another robs it of $50. The guy who stole the mil is bad, but the guy who ripped off the $50 is good.

50 dead in Detroit justifies 37 dead in Iraq.

Germany declared war on us.

Truman went to war in Korea therefore that justifies the war in Iraq.

JFK didn't start the war in Vietnam, Eisenhower intervened.

LBJ did turn Vietnam into a quagmire which justifies the quagmire in Iraq.

Clinton intervened in an obvious genocide in Bosnia - to his credit. He undermined efforts to stop a much worse one in Rwanda. Bush, illegally invaded Iraq for no such reason.

His claims of Bush's efforts in North Korea, Libya, and Iran are the purist bullshit. As for capturing Saddam, so what? The war goes on endlessly on.

Bush has liberated nothing. The author should check the news to see how "liberated" Afghanistan and Iraq are with our mighty military hunkered down in well fortified bases in Iraq, and the "democratic" warlords/druglords running Afghanistan.

His time frame comparisons are ingenuous at best. Kind of like saying that it took humans 10s of thousands of years to tame fire, so don't squawk when your heater fails.

As for the "Thank a Vet" nonsense, I'm a vet and he can kiss my veteran ass.

[BlueStateGirl]

18. The BibLaden/Clinton stuff has been dubunked on snopes.com,

but you might want to mention that BUsh gave the taliban $43million in May of 2001. He knew Bin Laden was in Afganhistan, he never once demanded he be turned over for bombing our embassies or the USS Cole.

[getmeouttahere]

19. And how about this....

let's say we even remotely take any of this guy's statistical crap into consideration, how about the social/domestic cost of the Iraq war here in the U.S.

During World War II, the American public was asked to make sacrifices, which included having their TAXES RAISED to pay for the war

Meanwhile, in 2005, not only are we not asked to make any sacrifices (not that we should since it is an illegal war) but we a drowning in a mountain of debt that will inevitably lead to another depression, if not reversed and soon!

[Larkspur]

20. I was a history major, so let me help you out here

2. When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state the following. FDR...led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did.

From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.
Japan attack the US at Pearl Harbor, which gave FDR the political will to fight Japan. On Dec. 8, 1941, the day after Pearl Harbor, FDR asked Congress to declare war on Japan, not Germany. Read FDR's speech http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/fr32/speeches/ph.htm

Germany, Japan, and Italy had formed an alliance called the Axis Powers. On Dec. 11, 1941, Germany declared war on the US in support of their ally Japan as well as in opposition to FDR's pre-Pearl Harbor order to attack any German U-boats in US waters. For a timeline see http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/ww2time.htm#1941

Germany declared war on the US first (go to Dec. 11, 1941 on this WW II timeline web page: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/events/events.html )
Here's Germany's declaration of war against the US http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/germany-declares.htm
Here's FDR's request for a declaration of war against Germany http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/germwar.html

Truman....finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never attacked us.

From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.
Here's a web site dedicated to the Korean War http://www.korean-war.info/

Unlike Bush II, Harry Truman did not start the Korean conflict. The North Koreans, aided by the Soviet Union invaded South Korea, did.

This invasion was somewhat equivalent to Saddam invading Kuwait, although the North Koreans were a better trained force. Bush the First got support from the American people and many allies, including Muslim allies, to repel Saddam and drive him out of Kuwait. Our allies paid for about 90% of Gulf War I.

In 2003, it was Bush II behaving like the North Koreans and Saddam Hussein who invaded Iraq. This was equivalent to Lyndon Johnson's Gulf of Tonkin resolution and escalation of the Vietnam war.

John F. Kennedy. ...started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.

Johnson....turned Vietnam into a quagmire.

From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.
Here's a Vietnam War web site http://www.vietnamwar.com/.

Kennedy did not start US involvement in Vietnam. Republican President Eisenhower did by sending in the first wave of military aides. Here's more on Eisenhower's role in Vietnam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War (Do a find on "Eisenhower" on this page to get directly to the part about Ike)

True Johnson did escalate the Vietnam war via the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, and he should have been tried for war crimes, but at least the Democrats forced Johnson to rescind running for a 2nd term as President. The Repukes championed Bush II who lied to Congress and the American people.

Clinton...went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us.
Here's information on the Kosovo War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Conflict

Milosevic was commiting acts of genocide against Muslims. Our willingness to come to the aide of these Muslims helped improve our relations with the Muslim word and the war was justified under humanitarian concerns.

In contrast to the 2002-2003 anti-Bush II Iraq war protests, the Kosovo conflict was seen by most of the American people as justified to stop genocide. And as the Downing Street Memo points out, Bush LIED to invade a nation that posed no threat to the US. That is a war crime.

He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.
I'm not an expert on this, but Sudan was not a trust worthy nation. They did give sanctuary to bin Laden and Sudan's leaders were close to Osama, so I believe that this claim is either a lie or a feint by Sudan to get US aide without delivering Osama.

[getmeouttahere]

21. Great work, Larkspur!

[Larkspur]

37. Thanks!

[democracyindanger]

29. The quick answer to the bin Laden idiocy

The guy offering 'bin Laden's head on a platter' wasn't a Sudanese official--his name was Mansoor Ijaz, a private individual that was later discovered to have substantial business interests in Sudan. He made the claim, WH officials checked with Sudan, Sudan said they were making no such offer, end of story.

[spanone]

22. Print it out, wipe your ass with it and mail it to him.

Bullshit. 100 wrongs make nothing right.

[InternalDialogue]

23. I'd start right at the top:

>>1. There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January...

There were ZERO combat-related killings in all of Detroit during the same month.

[chalky]

24. People, I am BOOKMARKING THIS THREAD.

Because I'm sure I'll be getting this crap email soon.

[Toots]

25. . There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January

Ummm I guess Iraqis are not considered people worth noting. Iraqis were killed in January as a direct result of Combat. This is an old e-mail and has been thoroughly debunked.

[cynatnite]

26. Snoped!

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/glenn.asp

[OrlandoGator]

27. Here's your response:

1. Ask him if car bombs count as "combat-related deaths" in his imagination.

2. We entered the European Theater in defense of our allies. That's what allies do.

Korea...don't know much about.

The U.S. involvement in Vietnam started on Eisenhower's watch. JFK was killed before he could implement his plans to withdraw. I have no defense for Johnson, and I doubt anyone else does either.

Clinton went into Bosnia to stop ethnic cleansing that was ongoing. Perfectly justifiable. And the "offered Osama on a silver platter" myth has been debunked too many times to count.

3. We haven't "taken" Iraq by any stretch of the imagination. Khaddafi's disarmament began long before Bush took office...Bush simply took credit for it. We've replaced the Taliban in Afghanistan with criminal warlords and drug lords.

In context (forget it, Republicans don't know what that is), Howard Dean was obviously talking about lawmakers with his "honest living" comment. Not rednecks who pick up trash on the side of the road.

[KurtNYC]

28. Do they just circulate lies?

They are addicted to lies. Every damn thing they send around is already debunked ten times over on Snopes. The thing about how the ten commandments are displayed at the SCOTUS, etc.

If it is jingoistic and full of emotionally based made-up "facts" they love it too much to care if it is true or not. There are many people who claim to be republican merely because they hate the stereotypes of the Left and they circulate stuff NOT based on whether it is true or not BUT rather based on whether it will piss off the Left.

[ProfessorGAC]

30. First, Tell This Cretin. . .

. . .that the gov't ADMITTED THERE WERE NO WMD's. So the search won't be shorter than Hillary's search for the billing records. It will be ETERNAL. They FOUND Hillary's billing records. They admitted there ARE NOT WMD'S TO BE FOUND!

Secondly, tell this idiot that Howard has a job. He has had a few; Physician, Governor, now a high paying gig as the head of a major political party. Asking the question if Howard has a job is the mark of idiocy.

His numbers are skewed. First, ask him how many soliders DIED after the WWII MISSION WAS ACCOMPLISHED. Almost all of ours died after the Idiot Prince said the war was over.

The Detroit murder thing is dumber than dirt as well. There are 20 times more people in Detroit than troops in Iraq, and all of them are not armed to the teeth as are out troops.

Sudan did not offer Bin Laden up. Even the Bush administration admits that isn't true. What's the matter, is he so used to Bush lying that he thinks that's a lie too?

North Korea isn't giving up the nukes. They specifically said they won't. He couldn't be any more wrong.

France is part of NATO. The Bosnian thing was a NATO operation. He needs to read more.

That's enough. People this stupid won't be convinced. He hardly has a single thing right in this entire rant. He's too dumb to understand.
The Professor

[GiovanniC]

31. It Took Me Less Time to Barf on My Computer Monitor

Than it took me to read this steaming pile of bullshit.

Furthermore, I have a message for the person who sent this email to you: According to FBI statistics, there were 16,503 murders in the USA in 2003. During the same time period in Iraq, 486 US military were killed. Therefore, Americans are safer in Iraq than in the US... so get on over there.

[Zenlitened]

32. How many people in Detroit died because the President of the USA lied?

How many of them died because the President of the USA completely bungled our nation's response to the most dire terrorist attack ever carried out on our nation's soil?

Any?

:shrug:

[warrens]

33. This is a very stupid person

39 soldiers died in January. How many civilians? How many who died in Detroit were armed soldiers? The whole thing is a classic comparing apples to oranges. Nothing to debunk.

[libertypirate]

34. Send them a copy of the DSM...

These comments are for the email sender....

Read it and stop just repeating what others have told you.

And everything you sent above has nothing to do with this:

"The intelligence and the facts were being fixed around the policy"

Do you like being lied too? I don't. Let's leave history in the past focus on today and you won't be sending me another fucking apologist letter about how liberal policy can be obfuscated into helping stupidity reign.

As for thanking veterans your pathetic, I have never met a combat veteran that actually liked being one. Why do you fuck heads support situations that effect others? You care enough to buy a stupid yellow magnet but not enough to be skeptical of the reasons to send them into harms way. Follower!

Your either with the truth or against it; when you stand with Bush you are against it period. You provably couldn't handle it anyways.

[anitar1]

35. I used to get these frequently last year ,

from Pugs I knew. Then I kicked them OUT of my life. I think their preachers hand them out in the Sunday church programs.

[radar]

36. Hmm

39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January.....In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.
...So, to this guy, American civilians killed in their own hometown is comparable to American soldiers performing their duty (voluntarily going into harm's way) to defend all of us in a foreign country from a perceived threat to the USA?* What sacrifice did the homicide victims in Detroit make for the rest of us when they died?** As in "Yeah, I'll die here in Detroit so freedom reigns thru the land!"

*Voluntarily following leaders with what soldiers perceive to be a righteous mission when going full throttle into danger.
**Not diminishing the crime victims - just not seeing the "they died so others might live" analogy/rationale