Anyone see Penn & Teller Bullshit last night?

[lildreamer316]

It was about the Patriot Act. Yes, in our opinion they're a little late to the table, but better late than not at all. I think it could be a good resource to inform the "masses" Opinions?

[SteppingRazor]

1. Great show. On every topic.

Their religion and Patriot Act shows are as relevant as their recycling and PETA shows. Great stuff. Love those guys.

[Blue_In_AK]

5. I liked the one they did on AA and other "anonymous" groups

a couple weeks ago. They completely mirrored my thoughts on that whole phenomenon, i.e., court-ordered religious indoctrination for addicts and alcoholics who get caught. It's almost universally a condition of any release that the person attend AA, an organization that teaches people that they are "powerless" and must rely on a power greater than themselves to deal with their problems. Wrong, wrong, wrong!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. Except that you can pick a tree as your higher power.. or anything else

The point is more about getting you to look outside yourself and reverse your negativity than to indoctrinate you in a religion.

For example, the serenity prayer... Reciting this doesn't necessarily mean you really think there is a God out there, just that you are learning to reocgnize that there are some things you have no control over and therefore it's good to let go of the stress you've built up worrying over what you cannot control.

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. If that is the case, why is it so saturated with god-stuff?

AA was a direct descendent of the evangelistic Oxford group. It encourages its adherants to accept a supernatural solution to their problems. It is, very simply, brainwashing. The person, the vulnerable and desperate person, who begins by laughing at the absurdity of a doorknob being "god as I understand Him" is indoctrinated into accepting a god-centered way of thinking, which then morphs into Jesus.

It is stealth evangelism, pure and simple.

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. No.. nobody brings up Jesus as your personal savior

At least not at any of the many meetings I ever went to.

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. I heard enough of it.

After moving down here from the mid-west. The favored phrase here was "God as I understand Him, who I call Jesus".

After five years of that shit I quit, fifteen years sober. And I haven't missed it a bit, except for the socializing -- of course, in these parts, socializing means sports, bars or church, and I don't do any of them.

I'd consider Rational Recovery, but I don't think they allow atheists into this state.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. Hmm.. Me, if people brought up Jesus in the way you mentioned it

it wouldn't bother me, because they used the as I understand it qualifier.

Too bad the groups in your area aern't comfy for you, at least for the socilaizing part.

[sandnsea]

19. Hogwash

The only people I've ever heard repeat this trash are alcoholics who don't want to stop drinking. And dupes who don't understand the mind of an alcoholic and repeat it because they repeat anything that sounds anti-religion.

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. No hogwash to it.

Why are there so few Jews and Muslims in AA? Are they less susceptible to alcohol?

Or is it because they are aware, on a fundamental level, of the tension between the recovery program and the evangelistic program?

I suggest that if it doesn't sound like evangelism to you, you are likely a christian already. It doesn't touch your core, any more than "In God We Trust" or "One Nation Under God" does. I further suggest, you consider such evangelism unobjectionable at the least and probably a good thing.

I've known atheists in the program who go along, as I did for 15 years, with reading the serenity prayer as a meditation, and standing silent during the "our father" but I've never known one to be happy about it.

If AA is so fixed on recovery, why is Rational Recovery so scorned? Because it presents an option that is not based on christian evangelism and prayer.

I better stop now, before I start getting into comparisons between AA and scientology -- there are more than a few.

[The Stranger]

28. That is clearly not the case.

The notion of a "higher power" -- which is specifically and intentionally left open -- contravenes evangelism, which is focused on subjugating the individual with the notion of sin and then enslaving the mind with specific "Jesus" doctrine.

"God" in the case of a "higher power" is just a placeholder. As stated, you can use just about anything. A 3 lb. chunk of blue cheese orbiting the moon will suffice. Yet it is something the addict uses (outside of him/her self) to hoist him/herself into recovery. Then it just becomes something that prevents relapse.

Many unrecovered alcoholics, like the "President," become God addicts, and "Jesus" is the choice of many. These are "dry drunks," who still addict but not on alcohol. But their way is against the notion of recovery, not the end result, by any stretch of the imagination.

[Blue_In_AK]

14. Probably should be in a different forum, but...

...do you think it's a good thing to indoctrinate people into the idea that they're "powerless"? Another point that they brought out was that success rates for people quitting alcohol or drugs are virtually the same with or without AA, so having courts mandate that particular program to the exclusion of (or in addition to) others maybe isn't such a good idea, particularly with the spiritual overlay that is perhaps repugnant to a lot of people.

I'm not disparaging people who find comfort in AA, just like I'm not disparaging people who find comfort in church. I'm just saying that making AA attendance a mandatory part of any probation or parole, with the existence of the very real possibility that that person can be sent back to prison if he/she doesn't attend, seems a bit Draconian and wrong-headed to me.

[GreenPartyVoter]

18. I think it's being used in place of counseling particularly since some

folks can't afford to pay for counseling. Lots of people get assigned to anger managemnet classes as well.

Does it seem any more reasonable in that light? That it's an inexpensive way to get people some help? (I understand why you are concerned about this, but it does have its positive aspects as well.)

[sandnsea]

20. Can you control addiction?

Isn't 'being powerless over something' the very definition of addiction? Are you aware that the entire concept of addiction came out of AA?

Nobody ever went to prison or jail for not attending AA meetings either. Treatment program, maybe. Not AA meetings. The things people choose to get in a tizz over never ceases to amaze me.

[Blue_In_AK]

21. Whatever -- I'm not in a tizz...

...just saying that there's more than one way to treat addiction and that AA attendance should not be a mandatory requirement of a suspended sentence, parole or treatment. I think repeating to yourself over and over that you're an addict or alcoholic and that you're helpless is not healthy.

But if it works for you, more power to you. It just hasn't worked for the alcoholic/addicts I've known and loved.

[sandnsea]

22. I'm not surprised

Denying that you're an alcoholic or addict usually doesn't lead to recovery. Buying into other people's denial and excuses usually doesn't help the situation either.

A person has as much control over addiction as they do over diarrhea. Or an allergy that causes diarrhea. How long would you put up with your loved one insisting on eating chocolate if they shit all over your couch every time they ate it? Why do you put up with that kind of behavior just because it's booze? It's the same thing. They can't control their reaction to alcohol any more than can control their reaction to a food they're allergic to. Powerless.

[Blue_In_AK]

23. We'll agree to disagree on this one...

I see your point, but I don't think you see mine.

[sandnsea]

25. I certainly do

Certainly not the first time I've heard your point in 22 years.

[Susang]

33. You do have control

Over what you choose to place in your body. Allergic people are taught they can and must control over what goes into their bodies or they might die. They are not taught to trust a higher power to do this for them.

You used a pretty bad analogy there. It's not as black and white as you're making it seem, now is it?

[scarletlib]

2. didn't see this particular show but I can tell you that they have

been very outspoken about patriot act, no fly lists, etc. for quite some time now. The big one (I don't know if penn or teller) has been especially vocal and I have heard them both on various programs and even read at least one article the big guy wrote.

[SteppingRazor]

7. The big guy, for the record, is Penn...

Penn Jilette, to be precise. He made news recently for naming his newborn daughter (I swear I'm not making this up) Moxie CrimeFighter Jilette. Nice.

[FreedomAngel82]

9. LOL

Crimefighter?? Seriously? His daughter???

[SteppingRazor]

11. Yeah. He said he did it so that...

When she's driving age, she can talk her way out of tickets -- "But officer, we're on the same side. My middle name is CrimeFighter!"

Personally, I've always dreamed of having my kid's middle name be "Danger." So they can really say "Danger is my middle name."
:)

[redqueen]

15. Yes, Penn has been speaking out since it first started...

love the metal mini bill of rights he carries around. :)

[xxqqqzme]

3. where can Penn & Teller be viewed?

on HBO? Showtime? or R U talking about a stage show?

[Blue_In_AK]

6. Showtime, I think...

[Mnemosyne]

32. Here you go..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1854702

I didn't know if you have dial up or DSL, so just gave the link.

[Chicago Democrat]

4. I HATE THEM, but if they carry water for us i love them!

I still HATE THEM mostly

[FreedomAngel82]

8. I'm watching it now

thanks to dzkia.

[Doctor_J]

24. The fat one is a Repuke

spent 8 years bashing Big Dog

[Susang]

34. No, he's a member of the Libertarian party

As is Teller. Neither one of them is Republican and both supported the Libertarian presidential candidate in the last election.

[Stinky The Clown]

26. Am I mistaken? Didn't Penn come out as a RW type?

I seem to recall something about that from the campaign season. I don't watch a whole hell of a lot of teevee and can't remember where I saw it, but I'm pretty sure I did.

[Chicago Democrat]

29. He is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE PERSON!!! LIBERTARIAN MY GUESS

Reasons he is horrible

Did BOGUS "shows" that "disprove" the following:

1) Reiki
2) Feng Suia
3) The Afterlife and mediums
4) Organic food is not better than Frankenfood



IN OTHER WORDS THEY ARE IDIOTS!!!

[pie]

31. Penn is a big mouth bully, I cannot stand the guy

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

30. yep-his washed-up ass was in fahrenhype 9-11

along with zell and dick morris