You're forced to vote: "Pro-Choice Freeper Nazi or Pro-Life Progressive"

[UdoKier]

Let's say these are the guys running for governor of your state. There are no third party candidates and write-ins are not allowed.

Which do you choose?


"Pro-Choice" freeper Nazi or "Pro-life" progressive Democrat

[48pan]

1. I'll vote for the friggin Libertarian.

[MojoXN]

21. Me too.

[Cleita]

2. Could Dennis run in California?n/t

[The Doctor.]

3. "Pro-Life" and "Pro-Choice" are not diametrically opposed.

Now is Kucinich a 'Pro-Ban' candidate? That would be opposed to pro-choice.

[UdoKier]

7. Kucinich was always "pro-life" until the 2004 election.

I don't know to what degree he wanted to limit abortions, but he he was not for unlimited access to abortions. In the 2004 election he had to announce that he would uphold Roe v. Wade to get support for the nomination.

[UdoKier]

10. That's a fair point.

But the question regards the terms as they are used in political campaigns - IE for or against access to safe abortions.

[Zenlitened]

4. Odds are good that a "pro-life" progressive won't ...

... try to legislate women's rights away.

Odds are equally good that a fascist claiming to be pro-choice is simply lying, and will stab you in the back the moment it's convenient to do so.

Vote progressive.

[mitchtv]

5. third party vote for sure

No SUCH THING as pro life that's ANTI-CHOICE.
bad comparison too, didn't DK change his tune?

[Beaverhausen]

22. He may be personally "pro life" but wouldn't vote to overturn Roe

there is a difference. It was also kerry's stance. but it may be too subtle for some people to get.

[Dhalgren]

6. Dennis fully supports every woman's right to choose.

Arnold would back off of supporting choice as soon as it would help him politically. This is a rigged question - shame on you...

[UdoKier]

9. Dennis moderated his views for the 2004 election.

Shame on you for not knowing that.

And the photos are just examples. You are evading the actual question.


Millions voted for Ah-nold in California because they were "lazy liberals" or "lazy moderates" - people who will automatically vote for any pretty face, so long as it is pro-choice and not too bigoted.

And now Arnold is unleashing every right-wing nutjob idea in the freeper playbook OTHER than banning abortion on this state. It IS a relevant question.

[Dhalgren]

16. Shame on you for lying about Dennis.

Dennis explained, fully, regarding his change of opinion viz Roe v. Wade. It had nothing to do with the election. Shame on you for knowing that (or knowing it, but deciding to prevaricate, instead). You can wallow in your on mud - thanks

[dsc]

17. would you have accepted that explanation

which amounted to "I had no idea what abortion meant to women until I ran into women in Congress" from any Republican? Sorry, but it was ludricrous.

[UdoKier]

26. Please. I'm not a child. Dennis has been in politics for decades.

The timing of his change of heart was very telling. AND I DON'T FAULT HIM FOR IT - it was a wise choice. Too bad he wasn't wise enough to see his own complete lack of viability as a national candidate...

And for the bajillionth time, the question is NOT ABOUT DENNIS K.

[Strawman]

11. Exactly. Dennis is pro-choice. He supports Roe v. Wade

And he is more pro-life in the truest sense of the word than probably anyone else in Congress.

From DK's website

"I support Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to choose, and will approve Supreme Court justices who affirm this Constitutional right.

I had a journey on this issue a few years ago that caused me to break from a voting record that had not been pro-choice. After hearing from many women in my own life, and from women and men in my community and across the country, I began a more intensive dialogue on the issue. A lot of women opened their hearts to me. That dialogue led me to wholeheartedly expand my views and support a woman's right over her body.

I have come to believe that it's not simply about the right to choose, but about a woman's role in society as being free and having agency and having the ability to make her own decisions; that a woman can't be free unless she has this right."

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/rightsreproductive.php

[UdoKier]

12. That's a very recent (and expedient) conversion.

The question is about theoretical candidates, not these specific people - they are just examples.

I'll remove the photos.

[Strawman]

14. You don't believe he is sincere, I do

He also supports embryonic stem cell research. What else does he need to do? You think he's going to get into office and do a 180? I think that's ridiculous.

http://www.kucinich.us/floor_speeches/hl_stem_cell24may.php

[UdoKier]

25. I don't believe anything one way or the other.

As much as I like Kucinich, I'm aware that he is still a politician. I have no idea how sincere his conversion was, nor do I really care. I'm just stating the obvious, that it was an expedient choice at the time.

And the question is not specifically about Kucinich.

[in_cog_ni_to]

8. I would vote GREEN. n/t

[dsc]

13. For those who are objecting to Kucinich as an example

how about David Bonior who has been pro life (and pro ban) for his entire Congressional career and ran for Governor of MI as a pro lifer.

[UdoKier]

15. Yes, and there are quite a few other pro-choice freeper scum.

The point of the poll is to attack litmus tests as a lazy way of voting, not as a vote on these personalities - that's why i removed the pics.

[Dhalgren]

18. The idea of a woman being a full citizen is not a "litmus test"

issue. It is a fundamental aspect of a person's political outlook. To say that a "progressive" could also be against full citizenship for women is ridiculous. Period.

[Greybnk48]

20. I'm with Dhalgren

I would not vote for a "Nazi Freeper" or a "Progressive" that did not support human rights for all people.

[UdoKier]

23. The idea of abortion rights equalling "full citizenship"

is a bit of a stretch.

If it's such a fundamental part of a person's political outlook, then why is it a total non-issue in so many countries? Very few countries over-inflate inflate this wedge issue to the degree we do in the US.

[Dhalgren]

28. Anyone can construe any issue as "wedge", if they wish.

But, Equal Rights, Civil rights, and Human rights are not, to me, "wedge issues". A woman's freedom of choice falls into the same category as these, as far as I am concerned. Name a country where women do not have the right of choice and where it is a "non-issue". Saudi Arabia? Iran? Yemen? Are these the exemplars of "progressivism" that you would emulate?

[dsc]

29. actually virtually all of Western Europe

have more restrictive laws in regards to abortion than we do. That would include such places as France and Scandinavia. For example, most Western countries ban late term abortions outright, while we don't.

[Dhalgren]

30. Can you imagine a viable politician in any Western European

country who would run on an anti-abortion platform? There are always going to be limitations and regulations on personal freedoms, that is the cost of living in a society of free individuals. But the idea that the government has the power to mandate reproductive choice is anathema to Human Rights and Civil Rights.

[dsc]

32. I have repeatedly seen politicians such as Landrieu

who have favored bans of parital birth abortions, which is way less restrictive than France's current law, labeled anti choice on this website. By that standard nearly all politicians in Western Europe run on anti choice platforms.

[UdoKier]

34. It's a wedge because it's all a con job - and you're buying into it.

The vast majority of right-wing power brokers DON'T CARE ABOUT ABORTION. Why do you think they only push for little things like bans on "partial birth abortion"? They control all branches of government. Where is their legislation to amend the constitution to ban abortion once and for all? Of course they won't even try, because they want to get abortions for their mistresses when the need arises.

It's all about getting the religio-nuts out to vote for them against their own interests.

Just as an example, I lived in Japan for five years and never once heard the term "abortion" in conversation or on the news. It is legal and widely practiced there, but it is not talked about. It doesn't work as a wedge there because there is no bloc of religio-nuts to get all incensed about it - it's a very secular country where religion is more of a social ritual than religious fervor.

As for the arab countries you mention, do you think there is a huge desire for abortion rights among most women in those countries? I honestly don't know. Their cultures are so utterly alien, I don't see how you can compare them to western democracies...

[Strawman]

27. I could and did vote for Bonior

He was not an absolutist on abortion and I think that's how it would be with most progressives who had that that black/white "pro-life" label. I don't think pro-ban is accurate in describing Bonior. He had a stronger pro-choice voting record than Joe Schwartz who was touted as the pro-choice Republican in that gubenatorial election.

http://www.freep.com/news/politics/polcol8_20020408.htm

I never got the feeling that Bonior was going to push for anti-abortion legislation and that he was coming around to a more pro-choice position like Kucinich. At least not in the latter part of his political career. He was a damn good liberal even if he wasn't always as liberal I would have liked him to be on this issue.

It's hard for me to imagine a true progressive who would be an absolutist on the abortion issue. If they were, and I knew a vote for them meant abortion would be illegal abortion rights would be seriously curtailed, I don't think I could vote for that person.

[Misunderestimator]

19. Other.... if that's all we have to choose from... I'd rather go somewhere

else.

[Jack Rabbit]

24. Would you prefer a married bachelor or a round square?

Those are oxymorons, too.

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Easy choice for me since I am a pro-life progressive Democrat.

Oh, I bought into the NOW/NARAL every-feminist-must-support-unlimited-access- to-abortion rhetoric for a number of years but it always nagged at me that it was not morally or logically consistent to oppose killing in war, oppose killing by capital punishment, and support killing by abortion. Finally, I decided I didn't have to go along with progressive group-think on abortion.

For the record, I would not ban abortion because I know that wouldn't stop some women from getting abortions illegally.

I support better education and access to contraception, and more emphasis on personal responsibility (which the right has claimed as their own but which should be supported by everyone), the aim being to decrease significantly the demand for abortion.

I also support programs to help women financially so that no woman ever feels she must abort because she can't afford to have her baby and raise him/her.

The one thing that disappointed me about Dennis Kucinich was that he gave in to the pressure from NARAL. It's ridiculous that Democrats have to march in lockstep on this issue.

The "I'm personally opposed to abortion but I can't tell others what to do" position favored by John Kerry is ludicrous. If you believe something is morally wrong, you should say so and not weasel around about it.

Abortion kills a living human being. That makes it a bit more serious "choice" than most.

[Walt Starr]

33. Third Party or not vote n/t