I get too upset

[CitySky]

As much as I love reading the "smack-down" stories of the best of my calm, cool, and collected fellow DUers, I have to confess that getting into arguments with Republicans just upsets me, leaves me emotionally rattled and off-center, sometimes for days or in this case weeks.

I am not talking about the Bubba who yells something really clever like "F*** YOU!" as he drives by me at a protest. There's an initial adrenaline shock, but the response is easy: smile and wave. :hi: Maybe yell something in praise of the First Amendment, our shared right to exercise it.

What throws me off is arguing with people I otherwise love and respect in other arenas of life who toss phrases from the RW-talk-radio-echo chamber as if it's a great sport, similar to the way I might tease a Yankees fan. Except of course we're not talking about baseball; we're talking about people who are destroying our country.

A coupla weeks ago an old friend called to catch up, and to invite me to his wedding. We're both Christians. Somehow (uh-oh) we got to politics. He is so smug and self-assured in his moral position: vote for the party that promises to make abortion illegal. (He's male, I'm female, but we'll leave that out of it.) He explained that abortion trumps every issue, even an unjust invasion of another country, because MORE innocent (unborn) people die in abortions each year than have died to date in Iraq. And so on with everything else people care about. It has been 2 weeks since our little chat and I am still shaking. If you follow his logic to its conclusion, it would be perfectly fine if the rest of us were all slaves to the wealthiest .01% of the population, if our only media were state-controlled fascist propaganda (oops, we're almost there already), if our children were all either born disabled due to toxins in our air and water or sent off to die in unjust wars, if elderly and disabled people who could not work were left on the street to beg for food, just as long as nobody was allowed to have a safe and legal abortion in this country. Just so long as all of the women who were determined to terminate their pregnancies anyway either (a) had the means to leave the country to do so, or (b) subject themselves to the risks of back-alley or self-induced abortions. Make it illegal, that's all that matters. That's the country he wants, apparently, and so he votes Republican.

I want to write to him and ask him this, in a less inflammatory way, backed up with facts and links, when I get time to gather my thoughts, and explain that *I* in turn would prefer a country where people have jobs that pay decent wages, and civil liberties, and healthy water and air, and where abortion remains safe and legal but becomes increasingly rare (as it did during the Clinton years) because people with a range of choices, economically especially, have fewer abortions, and maybe eventually because more people are persuaded in their own consciences that this is not the thing to do. But thinking about it this morning on the way to work had me all shaken and upset again, just like the initial conversation. These people don't stop even when I beg them to; they know that they can goad me into a response, and I'm a sucker for it. I wish I could be more calm.

Thanks DU for letting me vent. I'll get back to work now & check in later.

[tanyev]

1. My opinion?

He's not much of a friend. I would blow off the wedding.

[CitySky]

5. i'm not going to the wedding,

mostly because of the travel involved. but seriously he IS someone i love and respect for other things he has done that i won't get into here.

the trouble is, as a Christian and now living in Texas, I am surrounded by these people all of the time. folks at my church are tight, like family, but DIVERSE. so we've got all races, rich and poor, suburb and city... Dem & R. No politics from the pulpit, thank God. i know who most of the Dems are - they come to me for information, and i registered a few dozen of 'em to vote last fall. but i guess i feel somehow responsible for GETTING THROUGH to some of those who vote R without thinking about it. maybe not this guy. perhaps he's a lost cause (luckily, HE lives in California, and has to suffer Boxer being one of his senators as I suffer Cornyn!) but SO MANY dear sheep follow the same logic. I guess as a Dem in TX I feel a responsibility to shake some of them awake. it's not working too well i'm afraid. i'm not a very cool cucumber. more like a hot red chile pepper.

luckily we have DemFest here this weekend, with HOWARD DEAN :loveya: and just as importantly about 30 TEXAS DU'ERS :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: and progressives from all over.
perhaps they will help me get some perspective on these battles.

Thanks all for your support!

[SoCalDem]

2. Don't let him goad YOU into 'responding'. That's what he's after.

The best thing to do (IMHO) is to just let him talk, and consider the source..then ignore him:)

Your blood pressure will thank you.

People like him are so indoctrinated, that nothing you could/would say would change his mind, and any evidence you could show him, would only confirm his already-held opinion that the "media is liberal, and biased" against poor widdle W.:)

Karma has a way of working on people like this guy, and sooner or later he will have a "personal revelation"..

[LightningFlash]

3. That guy is nuts....

Now some rethugs think more people die in abortions every year, day, then in Iraq during a "holier than thou" war?!???

:eyes: :eyes:

[CitySky]

8. "a million a year."

they are counting only the unborn people, of course... not the women and girls who dies trying to abort at home.

i have no idea if that number is accurate. a million is, admittedly, probably a far higher number than the civilians we have killed in Iraq so far (even though we can't be sure since no-one's counting.) probably even higher than the kids who die of asthma attacks each year due to lack of enforcement of the Clean Air Act. but part of my point is, making something illegal doesn't make it stop. just makes it go underground. as much as i am personally opposed to abortion, it is NOT something i'd like to hand over to the black market.

[pacalo]

4. This is what you need...

This is one of the best articles I've found about these misdirected people who have lost the true meaning of Christianity. Please read the entire article at the link provided, but for now, I've posted only the excerpt about the abortion issue:

As a follower of his teaching I believe in the right to life, including the children in Iraq who stumble onto land mines, cross the street at the wrong time, or who are snugly tucked within the warm bellies of their wounded or grieving mothers as US fighter jets fly overhead. These are living, breathing children. The killing of these little ones are never even reported, and our tax dollars pay for these bombs. I believe in the right to life for those in the United States who are unwanted and impoverished. I believe in the right to life of the naive kid who was promised by the recruiter they could choose a desk job and still get their education paid or could see the world or could accelerate their life or could play a very realistic video game from a cockpit.

I've worked at a shelter, and I know first hand the reality of unwanted children. I know the reality of this right wing rhetoric when week after week I begged and pleaded with people to give up only one night every three months to sit with these unwanted living children for a few hours while the overworked house parents had a night off. Of the few I found, many changed their minds when they discovered that they would need to wear rubber gloves to change the babies diapers. These “believers” stand on the street corners holding right to life signs and then vote against medical assistance for the mothers and their unwanted children creating an impossible existence for them. The few of these abortion activists who might adopt some of these unwanted children generally want the white and the healthy. The ones with hydrocephalous, tracheotomies, emotional/ mental problems and communicable diseases along with their life long medical expenses can be someone else’s problems.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1025-25.htm

[CitySky]

6. thank you

now i'm bookmarking my own thread so i can read the whole article later. :hug:

the bumper sticker on my car says, "another proud member of the CHRISTIAN LEFT." so this is something i care about, obviously.

last week at Whole Foods I parked next to a car whose sticker read, "GOD BLESS EVERYBODY. No Exceptions." I like that one too.

[pacalo]

11. You're welcome.

The neo-con "Christian" movement is a sore spot with me.

Here's another site you may be interested in: http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm#bible

[demgurl]

7. Citysky, I feel for you, I really do.

If you really want to expose his hypocrisy, why not just use his own words against him? Be very nice and very gentle and ask him if he is 'pro-life' or 'anti-abortion'. If he answers the latter ask him if that means he is not 'pro-life'. The thing is, you can not possibly be 'pro-life' and be pro*. If he says he is pro-life then ask about the thousands of innocent lives that have been sacrificed overseas just for a lie. Ask him about the 1600+ soldiers who have given their lives for an illegal occupation.

Ask if he is only pro-life for a fetus since the same man he voted into office believes in killing people vis the death penalty. Is this also not a sacred and precious life as well?

What about the death chambers that they are building in Gitmo? Does it bother him at all that these prisoners are not allowed to have legal representation and could possibly be innocent but now our government may just exterminate the whole lot of them to do away with evidence of torture? Janise Karpinsky said it best when she talked about Abu. She said that she had told the higher ups that about 80% of the people being held at Abu are innocent but they told her they did not care! What if 80% of the people at Gitmo are innocent but get sent to the death chamber due to not having legal counsel? Are they not human lives as well?

What is he doing about the people who have died from tasers? Are they not lives and precious as any unborn babies? Is he checking out candidates to see how they feel about those actions? Are their lives just as precious? Ask him about the Deacon who had a clean arrest record - not a single crime ever committed. He went into an epileptic seizure and accidentally hurt a cop while doing so. The cops arrested him and he begged all five of them not to kill him and they tasered him FIVE times until he died. Is that life precious or is it only the unborn fetus? What is he doing about that?

Ask if he is only pro-life for the unborn and why did he vote for someone who values money over life. Does he know that * passed a law in Texas so that if you can not pay for your medical treatment the plug will be pulled? Does he know that a young baby died because of this? Is that baby's life less precious because they were already born? Is the money more important?

How can you trust someone who says they represent you on the 'pro-life' issue but they clearly do not value life at all when they treat citizens as cannon fodder. When they value the almighty dollar over treatment and life. When they treat prisoners as they do and some of them have already died from torture. How can you trust someone who says they value life but actions speak louder than words?

A wonderful verse goes that whatever you do unto the least of my brothers, that yo do unto me. The least of His brothers would be alleged terrorists. You can see what a 'man' is really made of by the way he treats those 'lower' than him. What is this religious man saying about his beliefs when he allows torture to go on under his command? What is he saying about how much he values life? Being pro-life does not only mean bringing life into this world, it means celebrating life and helping people make the most of it as they possibly can. Being pro-life does not mean oppression, hunger or torture. Being pro-life is a way of life much more than words you say to the public. I believe we do not have to make any arguments since Bush's actions speak very well for themselves.

[pacalo]

9. Also,

We Democrats don't advocate abortion. In fact, we're a very "pro-life" party.

Here's how Howard Dean put it in a MTP interview on Dec. 12:

We're not the party of abortion. We're the party of allowing people to make up their own minds about medical treatment. It's just a different way of phrasing it. We have to start framing these issues, not letting them frame the issues.

I have long believed that we ought to make a home for pro-life Democrats. The Democrats that have stuck with us, who are pro-life, through their long period of conviction, are people who are the kind of pro-life people that we ought to have deep respect for. Not only are they pro-life, which, I think, is a moral judgment--I happen to be strongly pro-choice, as a physician--but they are pro-life more moral reasons. They also, if they're in the Democratic Party, are real pro-life. That is, they're pro-life not just for unborn children. They're pro-life for investing in children's programs. They're pro-life for helping small children and young families. They're pro-life in making sure adequate medical care happens to children. That's what you so often lack on the Republican side. They beat the drums about being pro-life but they forget about life after birth. And so I do embrace pro-life Democrats. I think we want them in our party. We can have a respectful dialogue, and we have to stop demagoguing this issue.

MR. RUSSERT: And if you became chairman of the party, you would actively reach out to pro-life Democrats?

DR. DEAN: In my campaign, supposedly this liberal campaign, we had a number of pro-life people. Our campaign really is a reform campaign. Now, there were a lot of progressive people, and I believe in progressive issues, but what we're trying to do is reform America. We're trying to have health-care reform, we're trying to have election reform, campaign finance reform. We're certainly trying to reform the borrow-and-spend habits of this administration, which is the most spendthrift administration in my lifetime in America. This supposedly conservative administration can't hold on to a dollar, let alone a taxpayer dollar. So we want real reform and I want the Democratic Party to stand for reform.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6702005/

[ElsewheresDaughter]

10. dropping bombs on pregnant Iraqi women is killing babies too!

[HughBeaumont]

12. Tell him his wish will never come true.

Seriously.

What's the Matter with Kansas highlights this issue quite accurately. You gotta ask yourself (or he's gotta ask HISself): if all of what the Republicans tell their voters they're going to do by some miracle eventually comes to fruition and placed into legislation, what new causes would they go to?

With all of the power conservatives have in nearly every upper echelon of life; presidency, congress, media, corporations, religion, etc., would one venture to think that most, if not all of their causes, would be placed into law by now? I mean, it isn't like these wedge issues are NEW, by any means. Conservatives have been placing this meaningless morals shit on the card since Nixon - the party of morality, as it were. But abortion isn't illegal. Homosexuals haven't been driven underground. We aren't making any effort whatsoever to wipe out terrorists. TV and entertainment is more coarse than ever in history. Science takes a backseat to religion.

Let's say homosexuality and abortion were declared illegal, entertainment was cleaned up, all diseases were cured, terrorism was vanquished, welfare was abolished and America became Pleasantville; what reason would you have to vote Republican?

They use bullshit wedge issues and phantom boogeymen/afflictions to scare and anger the Gomers and Goobers of Dumberica into voting for them . . . CONTINUALLY. They've been playing the fear and hatred card from the bottom of the deck since Reagan. This is also prevelant with abortion: you see, they TALK a good game, but when it comes to actually DOING what they say, well, that just isn't gonna happen, chin-cho-chive. It's their little meal ticket, the proverbial carrot they dangle in front of their voters/potential voters. And they ain't gonna stop now, because it works like a well-oiled Jedi mind trick.

[reprobate]

13. You can't save the world, tho one of our guys tried a while ago.

The best we can do is to find peace in our own mind. It's the only kind worth having.

Those who try to win you over to their twisted beliefs will eventually find that they are not at peace and it's their very beliefs that will cause them grief. It's the way of the universe. Abbreviated as KARMA.

[NYPagan]

16. Also known as...

The rules of three.

All of the grief and torture we are visiting upon the peaceful middle eastern peoples will return in threes. It is a sad but true fact.

I shudder to think of it.

[Tsiyu]

14. Hang in there, CitySky

:hi:

I know it's hard to tackle the mountain of issues they are clueless about. I don't understand the fascination with abortion, but the preachers are feeding it and have been for years.

I don't see much hope in converting any of them, but keep trying and don't let it get to you.

:hug:

[NYPagan]

15. I have found...

It is easier to make new friends than to try to convince the old ones. Like the old adage about wrestling pigs, the pig enjoys it and you just end up dirty.

Peronally, I have found that new friends, with common interests and world views are healthier for me in the long run.

It might be osme sort of disease that htey have, that makes them unreasonable and so close minded.

[CitySky]

17. Ha!

Thanks for the reminder about wrestling with pigs - that's it right there! Nail on the head.

Y'all or so supportive I'm getting all misty-eyed here. Thank you all. Really.

[CrispyQ]

18. He's pretty self righteous for someone who will

NEVER find himself in a desperate situation, & then, worse, pregnant! How Christian of him. :puke:



Life is too short to spend time with people who bring you down or who "leaves me emotionally rattled and off-center, sometimes for days or in this case weeks."