Maybe I'm just tired. Tired of all the division.

[Bouncy Ball]

I'm taking a class right now, graduate school. There are 16 people in the class and we are divided into four groups of four. We choose our groups, but none of us knew each other at first. After the first few days we were told to switch.

One woman asked me to come over and sit at their table, so I did. I really didn't care where I sat, although there was one woman who was annoying me a bit by then. She was in another group, so I was fine.

After a few days in the group, some political conversations cropped up here and there (it's a writing class and some of the writing is personal, so political topics do come up). Apparently some weren't comfortable with the affiliation of others and now, almost three weeks into the course, we are ALL separated by political ideology.

There are three groups of four who are Democrats/Greens/other progressives (one member of the US Socialist Party). In fact, the more moderate Dems even are together and the two Greens, one Socialist and one VERY liberal Dem are together. I'm at a table with "regular" liberal Dems, I guess. Nothing fancy. LOL.

The fourth group has two republicans and two who don't vote by choice, they said.

It's kind of sad that I even know all this. It's kind of sad that we self-segregated. I know it's normal, and we seemed to be drifting that way even before politics came up. But I walked past the bush/apolitical table and heard one woman say "I'm just glad I'm not in one of those other groups; they're FREAKS." (By the way, no one LOOKS freaky, so I know she wasn't talking about that--there's no one with multiple piercings, tattoos, wild clothes, etc. Everyone looks really.....run of the mill, actually.)

BUT I also heard a girl at MY table say she's glad the bush people are off by themselves. At least she didn't call them freaks.

I see all this as the direct result of the atmosphere the bush administration has created. When was the last time you even heard bush say the word "Democrat?" I heard him say it right before the election and I remember thinking it was weird--I had NEVER heard him even say that word before. It was like I don't exist to him and others like him. Like all of us don't exist to them. bush voters must love that, but they need to remember that the president is supposed to be thinking of AMERICANS. Not just in terms of party. And all he and his ilk seem to do is think in terms of party.

And when you feel like you've been marginalized, even though you know there are millions out there who feel the way you do, when you feel pushed to the side, when you feel like your voice doesn't count, hell that no one even HEARS your voice (media), it's hard not to feel resentful, bitter, pissed off. It's human to feel that way.

I think this is what they have wrought. And it's only going to get worse, I'm afraid, before it gets better. If it gets better.

I still don't talk to any people I knew before the election who I know voted for bush. I can't get past all the blood on their hands; it's a bit distracting. And with new friends, I often find myself not wanting to know who they voted for, and go out of my way to make sure the topic doesn't come up. If I know they voted for bush, I just see them completely differently.

I'm tired of the division. But it's hard to hold hands with someone with bloody hands and just pretend it's not there and sing Kumbayah. So the division must continue.

I'm just wondering how and where this will all end.

[Catherine Vincent]

1. It's like that at my job too.

There are 27 people in our department and we all get along and work together but when it comes time for lunch, I notice the groups that go out usually have the same political leanings. It wasn't like that when President Clinton was in and if you think about it, a lot of us democrats held back a lot as the vocal repukes ragged on Clinton, we all got along regardless. But there is no way a group of us would continue to have lunch together if democrats were vocal about Bush, they wouldn't want to go to lunch anymore. They can dish it but they can't take it.

[Bouncy Ball]

2. Exactly.

Oh yeah, they can TOTALLY dish it out but are total wimps when it comes to a good dose of their own medicine. They practically scream and cry like you're killing them (witness any repukey talk show host on the radio).

:eyes:

[barb162]

16. re your last point, exactly

When Clinton was having his Monica problems, the pugs at work wouldn't quit ragging at him and arguing with Dems about how rotten he was. I actually had one pug screaming out of control at me at work. Finally her boss had to tell her to keep her political shit to herself.

[Lindsey]

3. It really is pretty unbelievable...

I'm not in school, but if I were I could totally see myself in your situation. Maybe you can just try as hard as you can to not dicuss politics (for your own peace of mind). Good luck!

[Bouncy Ball]

4. Eh. I don't really avoid it, don't really not avoid it.

Did that make sense?

But if I suspect someone is a bush person, and I LIKE them, I go out of my way to avoid politics as a topic. Because once I know, like I said, I can't get past it. I know from then on out they voted YES to killing innocent Iraqis. They said trillions of dollars of national debt is A-OK with them! They said a tax cut is more important than helping the youngest, oldest, sickest and poorest among us. Oh and veterans. And I JUST can't get past such horrid behavior.

[mermaid]

5. It Won't End

neither they...nor we...are willing, or even able. We are polarized and divided like no other time in our history short of the Civil War.

I know I'M not willing. If they voted Bush, then as far as I am concerned, they are as guilty of the criminal acts the Bush Administration has perpetrated as if they, themselves (the Bush voters) had actually physically committed the acts themselves.

THEY LET IT HAPPEN, THEREFORE, IN MY EYES, THEY ARE AS GUILTY AS IF THEY DID IT THEMSELVES!!

They knew...or should have known, that this Administration was evil, corrupt, even criminal...yet they voted to support it. I will never forgive. I will never forget.

I see a Bush voter the same way I would a traitor. A traitor to what America has traditionally stood for...a traitor to a once-great nation, sullied by the criminal acts of those now in power.

As far as I am concerned, EVERY Bush voter should be tried and convicted of "aiding and abetting." Bush is a confirmed domestic terrorist. He should be tried and convicted as one, and sent to Gitmo. Along with ALL his supporters. Every one of them. They are providing aid and comfort to a domestic terrorist (Bush) and they are therefore, by definition, enemy combatants that have no constitutional rights.

They wanna live in a theocracy with no constitutional rights? fine! I say we give them exactly what they want. But not on our fucking soil! And not so that it negatively affects the rest of us who hold our liberties and freedoms dear!

Give them their theocracy, their plutocracy, and their kleptocracy...but not on our fucking soil! And then make them live in the world they want to impose on the rest of us!! How fucking long before the scumbags come crawling back to us to admit WE WERE RIGHT...and THEY WERE WRONG!!

In fact, that should be part of the agreement that would allow them to come back. They only get to come back with their tail between their legs, admitting they were wrong, and we were right...and then they need to sit down, shut up and let US run the goddamn country, for the benefit of THE PEOPLE. and the returning assholes should have to sign loyalty oaths, too! Fuck 'em!

Like I said...let them live in the hell-world they are trying to impose on the rest of us....and see how long it takes them to admit we were right all along.

[Bouncy Ball]

8. If it truly doesn't ever end, then I just started hating bush

a tiny bit more. Because I don't want my daughter growing up in a country where people are so at each other's throats all the time. But she is.

Hell, a grad school class is usually a BIT insular, but not right now. We're all supposed to be "bonding" in this great class that is part of a national writing grant, etc. and there's just no way. Not all of us.

[Just Me]

45. I am compelled to add perspective because "they" are extremists.

Those extremists really are a minority of our people. I know, live and work around Republicans and evangelists who are NOT NOT NOT extremists. The people I know and associate with are human beings who struggle and love and suffer and grow JUST LIKE US.

I beg you to avoid further empowering the extremists who are already getting entirely too much attention because they simply DO NOT REPRESENT anything more than a minority of power-grabbing, self-serving, arrogant handful of reckless assholes.

It's a damn shame that they are intruding upon the best of humanity and embolding the worst. However, their extremism will not last because humanity HAS ADVANCED. People just fell asleep and took for granted what they believed was a pretty smooth ride into the future.

[NoSheep]

6. Excellent post.

:hug:

[Bouncy Ball]

7. Wow, thanks.

:hug:

[gumby]

9. Sad, isn't it?

These are sad and Dangerous times. ONE party has used the politics of division since the 80's. ONE political train of thought has spent trillions of dollars to change the American Mind. BOTH political parties have sold out to the money.

There is no escaping it. This Crap is everywhere. Buckle your seat belt, because it is, and going to continue, to be a very, very bumpy ride.

[barb162]

10. where this will all end

I think it is going to get worse, Bouncy.

To me,things seem to be getting more polarized

[mermaid]

22. Damn Right They Are

I know I'M more polarized than ever before. i'm to the point of complete intolerance towards Repukes of all stripes.

As far as I am concerned, collectively, they drove a stake right through the heart of the land I love. I'll never forgive them for voting Bush.

Bush killed our beloved country. and those who voted for Bush helped him do it...making them, in my eyes, just as guilty of the murder of the United States of America.

They raped Lady Justice, drove a stake trhough the heart of the United States. I won't forgive or forget. I say give 'em the nation that they, by their actions and their words, and the VOTES...they seem to want. A Corporatocracy/Plutocracy/Kleptocracy/Theocracy, with no constitutional rights. And make them live in the world they wish to impose on the rest of us.

Then let them come crawling back. Maybe that is the only way the stupid fuckers will ever learn to vote correctly (vote for the D....vote for the D)

[tnlefty]

11. Tell those name-calling Bush** FREAKS to enlist. Why the hell

are they wasting their time in school? Let'em really have a go at getting blood on their hands...their feet, too.

I understand what you're saying. The division is there. I also know that I'm not nearly done with raising hell about it either.

[Bouncy Ball]

20. Both are women in their 50s.

But oddly both have sons at A&M in the Corps of Cadets and will owe a few years to the Army, one of them next year and one of them the year after that.

When they mentioned that, I just sat there shaking my head thinking, "You KNEW your sons were going into the military and you STILL voted for a war monger???"

Makes NO fucking sense at all.

[tnlefty]

24. Forgive me for seeming mean, but I don't care how old they are.

I truly don't. They didn't care about the lying that was done to get us into Iraq, still voted for and probably support Dimson**. There are 2 men who live fairly close to me who are in a Guard unit who are 54 and 52. They're in Iraq along with a bunch of kids who haven't really started out in life.

[Carolab]

12. Why are you discouraged? Just look at the numbers!

"There are three groups of four who are Democrats/Greens/other progressives (one member of the US Socialist Party). In fact, the more moderate Dems even are together and the two Greens, one Socialist and one VERY liberal Dem are together. I'm at a table with "regular" liberal Dems, I guess. Nothing fancy. LOL.

The fourth group has two republicans and two who don't vote by choice, they said."

+++++++++++++
Only TWO of the 16 are admitted Republicans? What does that tell you?

Go out and get some more progressives involved, THAT'S what it should tell you.

Republicans are OUTNUMBERED all over the country. Howard Dean says this is a "democratic country with a capital D" and he's right.

If we had FAIR/UNRIGGED elections, we would always WIN. They need to CHEAT to "win" because THEY ARE OUTNUMBERED!

[Bouncy Ball]

15. I've known they are outnumbered for a LONG time.

Read a list of positions liberals agree with without identifying them as liberal positions and MOST people will agree.

Do you want clean air and water?

Do you want to use earth's resources wisely?

Do you believe people should be paid an honest wage for honest work?

Do you believe corporate CEOs are overpaid?

Do you believe government should tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body?

Etc.

I'm not discouraged, not at all. Just tired. Weary of the division.

[Carolab]

19. Just ignore the bastards. They're NOTHING. n/t

[democrat_patriot]

13. Bush said Democrats are obstructionist, Does that count?

Hell, I'm not even sure that's the exact quote....

Good story though, are you planning on being a writer? So far, so good. Need more wizards and car crashes though. Just kidding. :>)

[Bouncy Ball]

18. LOL

No, I'm in education. But we write a lot in this class and then take a wide-focus view of writing instruction for kids, K-12. It's pretty fascinating to me. The writing WE do informs our opinions on writing instruction.

[mitchtv]

14. I'm sure to be criticized for saying this, but

it sounds more like the 4 unpopular kids at lunch, talking about the cool kids. you know, the geeks, Honey, you go girl.

[Bouncy Ball]

21. LOL.

Eh. Actually if one of them wasn't a bush voter, I'd quite like her. Nice, funny, smiles all the damn time. That's why, in a way, I think it's a shame. But whatever, she made that choice.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

30. Now we get to the "root" of it.

The sack knows no political affiliation. - Daharjam Misthru, 1143.

[Bouncy Ball]

33. Nope, you're going to have to elaborate on that.

Unless you were being deliberately obtuse?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

37. Base, and I mean base, analysis:

There's nothing wrong with doing the Republican chick. Just don't talk politics, religion, finances, education, philosophy....

May I suggest *grunt.* ?









































:sarcasm:

[Bouncy Ball]

41. I'm female and not lesbian.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

50. LOL.

I've launched the proverbial lead balloon.


:dunce:

[DemBones DemBones]

17. I know how you feel. Last fall I just didn't want to go to my

club meetings: too many Republicans. I really like some of them, cannot understand how they could get suckered into voting for **. But I got sick of some of their comments and it's hard to forget things that were said back then, or even just to forget that they voted for ** and still don't get it that he was the wrong choice.

I blame Rush Limbaugh and FOX TV, other RW media, for creating this divide. FOX and Rush started working on it years ago, overturning rules of etiquette and common decency and stoking the fires of hate and prejudice. The level of rudeness and incivility in our society today is really disturbing.

[Bouncy Ball]

23. They are VERY complicit in this.

VERY. There is no level of civility in discourse on TV or the radio, etc.

So why would there be in real life?

[Straight Shooter]

25. I think their brains are different, like an addictive personality type.

I honestly believe their brains simply function differently, that they respond to this authoritarian type of rule, where they don't have to make complex decisions for themselves.

It also helps to vote for bush and support him if you don't like to be held accountable for your actions, either. This is why they don't believe they have bloody hands; they refuse to recognize their complicity in bush's actions. Without them, without their support, the war in Iraq would never have happened. But bush knew he could count on them because he knew that they don't believe in personal responsibility, no matter how much they say they do.

I think they're addicted to the idea of the U.S. as a superpower.

[NoSheep]

31. Interesting comment. I think they're wired differently as well.

I think for myself. As far back as I can remember. And I've taken responsibility for my deeds. I can hardly imagine being one of "them" . I suppose it's just as hard for them to imagine being me.

[Straight Shooter]

36. Scientists found a part of the brain that responds to prayer, meditation.

I don't have a link, but there is definitely a part of the brain that "lights up" during prayer or meditation, and it's more pronounced in deep prayer or meditation.

I can't help but believe that bushies support bush for the same reason that Jim Jones had his followers. They are brainwashed because they are capable of being brainwashed. For that reason, "drinking the kool-aid" is a very apt analogy.

Like you, I've always been very individual and could not accept what someone told me when it was delivered in a "because I said so" manner. I've always had to think things through and weigh all the evidence.

[NMMNG]

40. We have a wiener

I honestly believe their brains simply function differently, that they respond to this authoritarian type of rule, where they don't have to make complex decisions for themselves.


What you said makes a lot of sense. It would explain their affinity for the * regime, extreme fundamentalism and their very dogmatic nature.

It would also explain my extreme aversion to them.

[Lexingtonian]

26. such are civil wars

They go on until one side rationally cannot prevail, gets ground down as a force, and finally its willpower is broken.

This is one has two or three years left in it, after twelve to fifteen of them already. Everyone is exhausted.

We need people who will win the peace when the war is decided. There will be a great need for service in that area.

[mermaid]

27. Good Luck

I'm not interested in peaceful coexistence with these guys.

I'm interested only in grinding their stupid fucking faces into the facts until they finally admit they are wrong and change their ways forever, and it is never again possible for such a horrible bunch of criminals to come to power in this country.

Until they change their views, peaceful co-existence is out, as far as I am concerned.

I'm sick and tired of taking the high road, and being civil, and being "a good loser" to their brand of smash-mouth politics. It is time we tried a page from their playbook, and started practicing a bit of smash-mouth ourselves.

and, believe me, every day, it is getting tougher and tougher to not LITERALLY smash these dumb fucking Republicans right in the mouth, as the only way to make them shut the fuck up.

[Lexingtonian]

28. you've got two years, imho

Settle all the scores you can and like. We do need fighters.

Just don't forget that the reason they fight viciously, ugly, and stupid is because vicious, ugly, and stupid is pretty much all they have left. Like vampires, these tend to die in sufficiently prolonged exposure to the light of day more than due to combat.

[Lorien]

29. I know how you feel. I noticed a */Cheney sticker on the van

belonging to the leader of my pet rescue group for the first time tonight, and I immediately started thinking about how I could divorce myself from this group and find a progressive group to volunteer for instead. The thing is that I KNOW she works hard to save these animals, but it's hard for me to get past the human blood and environmental destruction on her hands. I don't speak with my republican friends anymore, either. I hate feeling this way. Also, you are correct-it wasn't this divided during the Clinton years. Sometimes I just want to move out of the country for a fresh start elsewhere. :-(

[merh]

32. What a great post.

Don't give up hope. :hug:

Things are changing, people are awakening to the reality and the pendulum is swinging back. We will replace the crazy neo-cons and we will get our nation back!

Never Give Up! :patriot:

[Cleita]

34. I find that the attitude that Republican/conservatives have

today against the rest of us is bigotry. Just the freaky remark itself is no different than saying they were glad they didn't have to sit at a table with the **** (fill in blacks, hispanics, gays).

Now that they are in the power class, their true feelings about us don't need to be hidden.

[linazelle]

35. 25% Bush support--sounds about right to me. nt

[anarchy1999]

38. Nice Post BB!. Don't we all already know where it will end? Alot of

division and acrimony. Sorry, I'm not feeling real hopeful right now.

But we keep on keeping on, right? Watched a movie this early am from 1964, "Black like me" based upon the book of the same name.

We've a long way to go.

(I read the book a very long time ago)

[countmyvote4real]

39. I love this thread.

It reflects my own personal struggle in dealing with Republican colleagues and family members. My choice is to avoid and shun them if they can’t or won’t acknowledge some aspect of the truth. In most of these cases, they have mixed up some mutation of Christianity with Emperor worship. In other words, they are really dull knives stuck in a drawer from a previous century. (Pick one, anyone. Just be sure it’s not current.)

What is most remarkable to me is that they will defend torture, abuse, murder, etc. on the grounds of self-defense without any regard to our Constitution. Never mind that the * administration invaded and destroyed Iraq without any real provocation. (Most of us knew that in real time back then, but now we have real proof with the DSMs.) So they remain fervent in their religion or nationalism or racism or whatever smoke the GOP MSM chooses to blow, but they can’t begin to comprehend what it might be like to be invaded by cluster bombs and an occupying army.

The sad thing is that I know that they will eventually feel the pain and they still won’t have any clue when China chooses to collect on the debt they own or when peak oil hits. They will be more crazed than ever, but they will have no say in their government since they elected to lose any checks and balances in favor of a false security or moral superiority. That’s the only way these “Neanderthals” will ever understand the resilience of the Iraqi insurgence and yet they will never have the balls to blow themselves away for freedom (fries or otherwise.)

I was raised to be a “Jesus freak” and evangelical. I can still “draw swords” with the best in a Bible verse search. I’ve since pretty much reduced Jesus to a myth and a tool used to cower people. Unfortunately, I don’t think that is what “He” was about.

I can’t pretend to like people that use Jesus or God for political gain. I can’t pretend to like people that vote against their own interests. And yet living in America, I understand how uninformed people can be. Multiply that by any factor you choose above one and you might understand why the US cannot contain or control Iraq for any reason palatable to the diversity of the Iraqi people.

[Bouncy Ball]

42. Wow, great post.

You have some good insight there. Nailed it.

[countmyvote4real]

47. Thanks Bouncy. Your post riled me up real good. n/t

[donheld]

43. Bush - The great uniter my asssssssssss

Makes me wanna hollar!

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Civil war, what you are seering is the beginings of one

every civil war is preceded by a period of time when division becomes normalized... this is what you are seeing and the cold civil war started in 1998

My fear this will end in a shooting and very hot civil war

[SmokingJacket]

46. I miss the days when people's political affiliation didn't matter

very much. It wasn't that long ago. When I was in grad school ten years ago, I had no idea who voted for whom -- looking back I can maybe guess the republicans, but people weren't choosing sides. Other things were more relevant.

I used to be able to have political discussions with republican family members that didn't end in tears -- in fact, those arguments were fun. WEIRD! I can't hardly remember those days...

:cry:

[Bouncy Ball]

48. That's what I was really trying to say.

Even though I understand WHY, sometimes it gets old to know or suss out everyone's political affiliations.

[sandnsea]

49. We don't want unity either

Any time anybody suggests compromise or coming together, they get the hell beat out of 'em around here. Goes both ways.

[Deja Q]

51. * supporters ARE freaks. Most cult followers are.

Unless they're upper class, in which case no kool-aid is necessary; they've got the fancy French wine.

[Igel]

52. I'm unconvinced that the division *must* continue, but I'm

fairly convinced it *will* continue.

There's a nearly complete lack of good will and good faith in many quarters. Simple conversations are impossible, each side having decided they have the One True Path neatly outlined, printed, and ready for distribution. (The "One True Path" is from Voinovich--Vladimir, that is--and refers to the USSR's politika. One important point was the the One True Path changed fairly frequently, but there was always just One True Path.)

You can't (not you personally, this is the 2nd p. indefinite 'you') ... you can't hold a simple conversation without people essentially saying you can't mean what it is you obviously must mean. It would mean you're not bad; then the hate, disrespect, and feeling of superiority shown you aren't deserved. It's impossible to disagree on the means, and have similar ends in mind, or to openly and rationally discuss differences in opinion and share facts. If you don't agree on the means, and every part of the process; if you don't accept the same facts; if you don't make the same assumptions and presumptions about the world ... it means you're evil. Fascist. Communist. Whatever the perjoration du jour is.

I think a lot of people have developed this sincere, deeply held belief that they are superior. Even if it drives them to say, as one DUer posted (in a fit of hyperbole, I hope), that repubs' brains are "hardwired", which means, in most contexts, "genetic predisposition." Great: are we now claiming that the "Other" is subhuman, or maybe that we're superhuman? And s/he got support from another DUer or two. Rather sad, actually, saying things that makes the "cultural racists" out there seem downright enlightened.

I don't know why this is. It certainly doesn't need to continue, because in so doing, both principled dems and religious repubs are denying the morality they lay claim to. But I suspect it will continue, if only because it feeds what I see as a perennial desire of humans to both belong to a group, and to believe that their group is at the very least distinct, and nearly always better than, others.