The Demise of the Dress Code

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

"There used to be a certain style here. It wasn't that button-down New York banker style; it was a more causal look. Men wore blazers and a nice pair of slacks." But these days, says Biederbeck, San Francisco style might more aptly be characterized as "super sloppy."

<snip>

"I call it the casualization of America, and it's a grim scene," says Trotter. "In New York and Chicago people still dress. As you move westward, it gets looser and more casual." Trotter's restaurant doesn't have a strict dress code, but "gentlemen are encouraged to wear jackets," he says.

David Shaw, who writes the "Matters of Taste" column for the Los Angeles Times, says he has seen a marked decline in the standard of dress at top restaurants in his city. "Los Angeles is a more casual city than New York and San Francisco, but even so, people have gotten sloppy and careless," says Shaw. "Most restaurants don't want to talk about it because they're afraid of offending their customers."


Dammit, people just aren't acting RICH enough!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/15/FDGMFD2KLS1.DTL

[sweetheart]

1. Its fun to dress well

As much as it costs money, dressing well is never out of fashion on
the left or the right, as most poeple are facile and trust appearances
over substance.

When people dress up, they bother to bring their finest to others in
their lives, and are generally treated better, with more respect and
with more subtle ettiquette.

The article does not point to america becoming wisely undressed, but
rather slovenly in both dress and ettiquette. Refinement is not
a value of the right, nor is it effite in its mature form, rather
simply "classy".

Some people can't wear a suit, can't wear heels, can't put on makeup
and can't shave their hairy bodies... and its ok in the forest, but
really, there is something to dressing well, and i require that people
who work in my business dress formally, as business is formal and
there is nothing wrong with that.

[bleedingheart]

2. you don't have to be rich to dress appropriately

I know wealthy people who are sloppy in their appearance and people who live on very limited means that have great style.

I currently work in a very casual office but there are people who are always pushing the envelope of taste and in the end they ruin it for the rest of us when the boss finally goes apeshit and demands a return to a more formal dress code.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Dressing well does not mean spending a lot of money

I buy my clothing from thrift stores, and you can get some really nice togs for reasonable prices. And since they are older, you are more likely to get something made in the USA, so you are not supporting the current trend to support slave labor.

Style can be as simple as tucking in one's shirt or blouse, making sure clothing is pressed, and that clothing fits.

I do disagree with the statement that people on the East Coast dress better than people further west. Recently, my husband and I traveled to New England to see a play. We dressed up, as this is our custom. (I know the restaurant where we dined before the play had no problem with what we wore :))I was really surprised to see how many people were there in jeans and casual shirts--after all, the play we saw had performers who had played on Broadway, won Tonys and Obies, etc. (In other words, it wasn't amature night).

One thing I do object to is any dress code that requires people to wear clothing that is unhealthy for them. Namely, I'm talking high heels. Frankly, I can't wear them because of problems with my feet. In fact, I can't wear anything but shoes that tie. Just looking at high heels makes me feel pain!

[eridani]

6. I wear cross-trainers with orthotics all the time

Only way I can keep the plantar fasciitis from coming back. Also, I'm allergic to most makeup. Luckily, I'm a bench chemist, and so have a lot of leeway in dressing. I wear a more formal suit for seminars, but I still need the sensible shoes.

[ArkDem]

48. Maybe if you dress nicer they will make you a starter!

:evilgrin:

[eridani]

65. I didn't get that at first

But it was pretty good after about 45 seconds.:rofl:

[DemBones DemBones]

57. I've worn my sneakers with prescription orthotics with dressy suits

and dresses, to very dressy events. I love winter, when I can wear fashionable boots with prescription orthotics.

We should probably print up little pamphlets about plantar fasciitis to hand to anyone who stares at our shoes. ;-)

[ProfessorGAC]

4. I Concur

I don't think there is anything the least bit elitist about dressing appropriately and as well as one can. Style is not really about money. The designer tags INSIDE the clothes are about money. One can buy nice clothes at Target, low cost, nice looking, but no designer labels. What could be wrong with that?

The Professor

[Quakerfriend]

5. I agree. I've taught my young boys.

They have always dressed in coat and tie for piano concerts etc. And, they always keep their shirt tale in etc.

It's important for the little ones to understand this too!

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. I completely agree, as long as it's indexed to occasion

Certainly, if I'm going out to a nice restaurant, I'm putting on a decent pair of slacks and a jacket. When I go to work, I similarly dress formally. When I go to hang out a a bar to watch a baseball game, I'll throw on some cargo shorts, sandals, and a guayabera and be good to go...no dressing up necessary.

But I also agree that getting well-dressed is fun, and gives you more confidence, or at least a different set of affects throughout the day. I like a nice Jermyn Street tailored shirt with french cuffs and a nice tie, all under a well-tailored suit with a pair of snazzy shoes. I leave the apartment like that and feel like a million bucks, and people will respond differently as well. It's a nice feeling.

[radwriter0555]

19. I have to agree. American dress is slovenly and lazy, like the fast food

they consume. So many americans thrive on tee shirts and tennis shoes; women rely on jogging suits and stretch pants.. it's just lazy.

I don't work for someone else; I take care of my own personal business but even in my regular outtings I 'dress'. Shoes are always clean, rarely wearing jeans, always wearing nice shoes, most often a low heel and a simple nice sweater. I have several suits I wear for gatherings as I'm not a 'dress' girl, but I love the long coats and tailored looks.

Of all the world inhabitants, I like the italians the best. Everyone there is ALWAYS dressed! Their shoes are impeccable, you never see sports shoes; the ladies are always in gorgeous shoes and beautiful coats, dresses or trousers; I've never seen anyone dressed 'hoochie' in italy; the men always wear a nice trouser and pressed shirt or suit coat; the french come in second as far as how lovely everyone looks. The italians never wear shorts in public either, unless they're actually hiking.

[shanti]

46. "can't shave their hairy bodies"????

:wtf: does that have to do with dressing? you don't even want to get me started on shaving vs. not shaving.:-(

[sweetheart]

55. some people love al-natural

It is an issue of social custom, not personal taste. Don't wear a
short skirt with BIG HAIRY LEGS... its disgusting. Men who don't trim
their beards, that they look like Osama are hardly in the cultural
middle. It takes work to clean up, to dress up the body, organize
and clip the hairs, nails and all that, and this work is investment
in polishing one's presentation for others. The return experience
is inevitably greater politeness and respect. It is not a question
of "must do", but rather a way of finding less friction.

Some women find kissing bearded men to be a very "scratchy" experience
and find smooth faces more fun in bed. Some men like plowing through
a bush of hair that won't fit in any bikini... its all personal
preference at that level... but the social norms are what they are.

[UdoKier]

59. You snobbishly dismiss people on appearannces...

But what if others judged you so harshly on your poor spelling and grammar?

"Its fun"

"america"

"effite"

"i require"

And I don't know what to say about the shaving hairy bodies part...

[sweetheart]

61. Poetic license mate

Well, arn't we in need of a tiff! :-)

Snobbish my ass. Well dressed has nothing to do with snobbish. Like
i said, its "classy" and beyond preconceptions of pre-judgement.
As well, for those who do pre-judge, they inevitably treat better
dressed persons more nicely. I merely state the obvious.

I've tried both as an employer, and i stick to formal, as when people
dress down, they inevitably dress down their manners as well. And i
am really believe that in the workplace, treating people with the
utmost respect and ettiquette achieves the most for all involved.

As for you peurile take on my grammar and spelling, geesh.... :-)
Don't like thursday's eh? Did you have a fight with SO this morning?
Perhaps you're out of grass?

I just laugh about your comment about shaving... and you want to move
to japan!!!! :-) hahahahahaha ..the most hair-paranoid culture on earth.

[UdoKier]

63. I see, you're talking about women shaving legs/pits?

Sorry, I was imagining a bunch of guys shaving their backs...


I've not observed people in formal dress to be more polite. In fact if you want to see a man in a suit absolutely oozing arrogance and contempt for everyone he speaks to every day, watch Scott McClellan's press conferences.

Politeness is less about using nice words than it is about treating people with respect and dignity.

[sweetheart]

73. I'm talking about getting cleaned up

For most people, it means shaving something, clipping nose hairs, tweezing eyebrows, mowing down those giant chest hairs that stick out
of the collar above the tie-knot making men look like gorillas...

Respect and dignity is a daily thing, something you can never let down,
as much as you clean your shoes and brush your teeth, it takes daily
maintenance. I agree that it has nothing to do with dress, but that
said, people take things for granted when they don't have to make an
effort, and unfortunately slobbery travels with like company.

When i put on fine clothes, and all the gear, it takes extra work and
that's all i mean by it. You're less likely to get in to a bar brawl
if you're wearning your finest gear, as it makes you think twice that
you're "not dressed for" a bar brawl... and that is the point.

Getting ones hair done nice makes most all people feel better about
themselves, and self confidence helps people be nice with one another.
Is that an alien concept? In scotland, it is quite common for men to
have beards, but even then, when they're dressed up, the beard is well
trimmed and spiffy. In japan, i've encountered men getting everyevery
thing waxed!.. and been insulted in japanese as a "red haired hairy
barbarian" by an ex who was red-faced furious and drew that lovely
out as the final insult of insults... hairy! :-)

peace,
-s

[manic expression]

74. Perhaps, but I for one cannot stand button-down shirts or ties

that is only my personal preference. I find them uncomfortable, restricting and to a certain extent, archaic. I think people should show class without the dress. I also feel that people can express themselves through dress, although my wardrobe doesn't really reflect that.

I understand where you're coming from, though.

[ObaMania]

7. Casual attire is better for morale and productivity, IMO.

I am in an office with a casual dress code. We often work very long hours and have no face to face contact with external clients.

If people can dress casual, they are more comfortable which means they don't mind staying around a little longer each day. If you don't have to see clients, why should you have to sit around in a stuffy, uncomfortable suit all day? Also, no time is wasted in the morning thinking about what you're going to wear, coordinating shirts/ties, etc.. or having to pay the added expense of getting suits cleaned.

As far as it not costing money to dress nice, I disagree. A cheap suit is a cheap suit and people can tell. You can though, get fairly decent suits at places like Marshalls, Reject Maxx and Burlington Coat Factory.

I was recently offered another job with a 20% increase, but when I weighed the cost of buying a new work wardrobe and the cost of personal comfort, I passed.

Casual dress went in place around the time of the Tech boom and has (thankfully) hung in there. I hope this isn't a short-lived trend.

[ProfessorGAC]

8. There's Actually No Real Evidence Of That, Either Way

Studies on that have been done, nearly every year for the past 25.

What they generally find is that neither morale nor productivity is improved by mode of dress. Casual places have the same variability of these measures as do more formal ones. It's been essentially true every year.

You can look these studies up in Harvard Biz Review from time to time as well as the Journal of Statistical Analysis.

I have no preference either way. In my environment, i do both, depending upon where i am and with whom i'm working. Shop floor operators don't want to work with "one of the suits", but the marketing staff don't want to deal with a schlub, either.

A tie doesn't make me more productive, but it doesn't lower my morale. I know what i know and can do what i can do, either way!
The Professor

[Deja Q]

9. I wouldn't be happy if I was forced to buy the requisite outfits...

[ProfessorGAC]

11. I Can't Argue That Point!

I understand. All i'm saying is that it's a subjective decision that firms make. There is no real benefit either way, for the company.

Besides, morale and productivity are things that only apply to those who already work there. If you would be unhappy having to buy the outfit, you would likely just not take that job. In which case, your morale and productivity is immaterial to that particular company.

There are folks like you. There are others who want to work in a buttoned-down environment. Then there are those like me who can do either and not have it affect us either way, for any reason.

And that's ok. Different strokes, and all. But, companies are highly unlikely to find any significant benefit based upon the dress code they choose to enforce. Buttoned-downs are no better than casual and vice versa. Other hiring decisions and corporate culture elements mean WAY more than the clothes people get to, or have to, wear.
The Professor

[sweetheart]

30. If the outfit were "required"

You could get a tax writeoff for it!

[Gelliebeans]

88. I don't mean to butt in

or be a smart ass but many people don't realize that there are strict rules regarding deductions for clothing. I had a client who got into serious trouble with the IRS because she was mistaken in the belief that she could write off regular dress clothes.

Work Clothes and Uniforms

You can deduct the cost and upkeep of work clothes if the following two requirements are met.

1.You must wear them as a condition of your employment.
2.The clothes are not suitable for everyday wear.

Caution******
It is not enough that you wear distinctive clothing. The clothing must be specifically required by your employer. Nor is it enough that you do not, in fact, wear your work clothes away from work. The clothing must not be suitable for taking the place of your regular clothing.

Examples of workers who may be able to deduct the cost and upkeep of work clothes are: delivery workers, firefighters, health care workers, law enforcement officers, letter carriers, professional athletes, and transportation workers (air, rail, bus, etc.).

Musicians and entertainers can deduct the cost of theatrical clothing and accessories that are not suitable for everyday wear.

However, work clothing consisting of white cap, white shirt or white jacket, white bib overalls, and standard work shoes, which a painter is required by his union to wear on the job, is not distinctive in character or in the nature of a uniform. Similarly, the costs of buying and maintaining blue work clothes worn by a welder at the request of a foreman are not deductible.
Protective clothing. You can deduct the cost of protective clothing required in your work, such as safety shoes or boots, safety glasses, hard hats, and work gloves.

Examples of workers who may be required to wear safety items are: carpenters, cement workers, chemical workers, electricians, fishing boat crew members, machinists, oil field workers, pipe fitters, steamfitters, and truck drivers.

[Kazak]

27. Who needs evidence,...

when it's easily observable in oneself? :shrug:

[ProfessorGAC]

34. Tha's Nonsensical

Companies are going to make changes that are comfortable to the leadership. If they think it best for all to go casual they'll do it. But, if they're expecting better morale and productivity justfrom changing the dress code, it won't work.

The anecdotal evidence of one DU'er is not compelling.
The Professor

[Gormy Cuss]

29. Therefore,

Dressing casual should be the norm. It's more cost effective for the employees and reduces trips to the dry cleaners.
:-)

[ProfessorGAC]

35. Most Cost Effective for Whom?

To the employee, yes. To the employer, it's transparent. So, employers aren't motivated to change anything, in either direction. If they're casual, they're not motivated to go more formal. And vice versa.

The fact is that companies don't benefit either way. So, how ever they are now, is likely to stay, since they don't gain any benefit from changing.

That's my point. My personal preference, or yours, is irrelevant in the big picture.
The Professor

[Gormy Cuss]

47. It was a joke, professor.

I said cost effective for employees. See the smiley?

I understand your point that research doesn't show a direct benefit to companies and they have no incentive to change whatever standard they use now based on employee preference. I hadn't heard about the formal studies on it. I'll have to add those to my reading list.

Workplace dress code expectations have evolved with our changing attitude toward fashion and style. Some industries still are stuffy but what passes for appropriate business attire these days wouldn't have passed muster 30 years ago. Women who entered the workforce in the 1970s would never wear slacks in a white collar setting. These days most professional women rely on power pantsuits and only a few dresses.

Employers do respond to customer perceptions because dress codes are ultimately about marketing. I worked for a company where business casual was the norm long before it became common. Why? Our clients were civil service workers who were put off by power suits. We'd dress up for contract negotiations and executive briefings but otherwise we dressed like our clients. No jackets on men, simple dresses or slacks on women. If our society continues to embrace dress down, it may become a competitive disadvantage to retain the stodgy old dress codes.

[ProfessorGAC]

50. I Agree With Your Conclusion

BTW: I did miss the smiley. Must not have been paying attention.
The Professor

[formernaderite]

56. Agreed....it values the work not the look

Happily dressing casually for fifteen years now. Let me tell you, my suited wife is VERY jealous of me.

[HughBeaumont]

12. Personally, I LOVE business casual all the time.

Even when worn loosely, ties give me headaches. Suits are expensive, itchy and extremely uncomfortable to be in for 9-10 hours a day. Plus I work in an IT setting, so sometimes I have to do dirty work. Ties and nice shirts are not appropriate for that kind of stuff. Best of all - NO DRYCLEANING!

I look at those sorry bastards over at suit 'n' tie National City and just shrug at how identical all of them look . . . same haircut, same suit, same walk, same facial features. Eccch. No thanks, man.

[alarimer]

13. Good

I hate dressing up! I won't go into places where I have to; I don;t care who I am with or the occasion. I will NOT wear a dress. Ever. Not even to a job interview. For that I have an appropriate outfit that includes pants and NO HEELS.

[queenjane]

14. Slovenly is still all the rage in academia!

I work for the academic medical research department of a large and prestigious private university in North Carolina. When I came here 9 years ago, the doctors wore starched dress shirts, ties, and dress slacks every single day. Now, dressing "professionally" for the physicians means dockers, polo shirts, and sneakers that haven't been worn to mow the lawn. But least they're clean. Those lower on the employment ladder, not so much. People come to work in short shorts, tank tops, belly shirts, flip flops (a pox on them, as they happily slap their way down the aisles). One professor I work for wears the same clothes for weeks at a time, then tosses them. She buys these clothes at thrift stores, and they're in the 50 cent bins, torn, stained, faded. She also never bathes or shampoos her hair, and wears hiking boots with broken laces. This woman makes 100k+ a year, so she's not precluded from dressing decently by financial restrictions. She, like the rest of society, just doesn't give a damn. I agree that by dressing well, you're showing respect for yourself and others. I manage to do so on an admin assistant's salary, by carefully shopping sales, outlets, and yes, thrift stores. The ones in this area are goldmines! And no, I don't wear heels.

I've seen men wear NASCAR tee shirts to formal evening weddings. I've seen women wear white capri pants and sandals to funerals. I've seen folks show up for job interviews in see-through skirts with black thongs underneath.

Our entire society has abandoned manners, refinement, consideration for others, and self-respect. This is reflected not only in dress, but road rage, barreling over people to get in elevators, letting doors slam in the faces of those behind us, etc.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. "Our entire society has abandoned manners, refinement...etc"

...said Socrates in 400 B.C.E.

Drama queen much?

[Stuckinthebush]

20. I applaud the professor/scientist who doesn't give a damn!

I love that attitude.

The way one dresses has no effect whatsoever on you or me. Those that feel a need to keep up with the latest fashions are a bit silly in my humble opinion. Nothing wrong with thrift store fashion!

[DemBones DemBones]

60. You applaud someone who never bathes or shampoos her hair?

I think she is going way too far on the "casual" train.

[expatriate]

64. Ditto!

I really don't give a hang what people wear, but I draw the line when "casual" becomes "filthy" - and someone who never bathes or cleans their hair is filthy.

Regardless of how someone might feel about how free and casual they are, when their funk starts to invade my airspace, that's where I have to protest.

[Bouncy Ball]

85. I thought this thread was about dressing casually?

Since when did dressing casually and not even attending to basic hygiene become one and the same?

[Cats Against Frist]

78. I'm with you!!!!

and I think a group rendition of Dolly Parton's "Coat of Many Colors" is in order.

Repeat after me: ATTIRE IS A CONSTRUCT.

I'm one of those college instructors who wears the same clothes for months at a time -- a long black dress with trainers. Doesn't make what I have to teach about poetry and literature any different.

These pro-construct clothing advocates, who are so into the "philosophies of order," IMHO, should get themselves an RNC card and sign up to teach hygeine classes to the "dirty masses." While they're at it, they should probably kick a paraplegic for not walking on two feet, like everybody else.

I have more important things to worry about than if someone thinks my attire is appropriate, or not. I wish others did, as well -- or rather -- I wish everyone else had things to worry about that kept them from judging whether or not certain people are fit to hob-knob with the Carnegies at the Astor Bar.

[eridani]

68. Don't buy your dress/manners link

Your professor sounds like a classic Asperger's syndrome case--she's good at logical and scientific things, does not have the capacity to read social cues well, and luckily is in a job where a weakness in ordinary social environments becomes a strength.

An MIT parody song book featured the following little ditty to the tune of Salty Dog.

I love physics, I love math
I don't ever take a bath
Honey let me be your grungy tool.
I save money, I'm no dope
I economize on soap
Honey let me be your grungy tool. et cetera

As for bad manners, it's increasing anonymity that is the driving factor, not dress codes. In a small town, you still don't dare do road rage. The person you are tempted to flip off is likely at some time or another to be teaching your kid, digging your well, filling your cavity, wiring your house, or sitting in judgement on your application for a zoning variance.

For the ultimate in anonymity, there are Internet message boards. See any locked thread here for relevant examples.

[lildreamer316]

15. Despite my "liburl" mind; I...

...am still a southern lady. I do not go to a nice restaurant unless I am at least neatly dressed. I certainly would not go in jeans, even if they did cost $200. (when I say nice, I mean I pay over $100 for my meal. Cost of living that translates out to $300-$500 everywhere else). Just me being a product of my 'raisin.

[Stuckinthebush]

23. Oh, dear Ms Scarlet! Your pedigree is showin'!

:D

Just playing! I'm Southern too. I do contend that sometimes our "upbringing" has been a hindrance instead of a help.

[taught_me_patience]

45. Have you ever worn $200 jeans?

They are really nice because they are classy and casual at the same time. Honestly, a nice pair of jeans look better than just about anything a lady can wear (as long as she's wearing nice shoes) imho.

[lildreamer316]

62. Oh, I know

...I was actually just kinda using that as an example to make my point. Believe me, when I find the pair of $200 jeans that make my ass look RIIGHT I will wear them any damn place I please! (Still working off the pregnanacy weight!)

[taught_me_patience]

82. oh... its going to look good!!!!

:headbang:

[Cats Against Frist]

79. I don't know, I think poor children eating catshit for sustenance

is really attractive. Only, of course, if it's paired with an African child who can't get medicine.

And I bet the person that pocketed $198.02, because you're a sucker, thinks it looks REAL good.

[taught_me_patience]

83. Sorry I don't understand your post

please clarify.

I've never paid $200 for jeans. The most I've paid is $130 and I wear them 2x per week. Nice jeans can be worn for years, so when you ammortize the dollar amount, it really isn't that much. I'd rather have 1 premium pair of jeans than 5 crappy ones. Plus, almost all the premium brands are made in U.S.A., whereas the cheap crap you find at GAP is made in indonesia. The American quality shows as the last longer and look better.

[Cats Against Frist]

87. If you don't mind

I was just wondering if you knew that the following union and American-made blue jean companies charge anywhere from $27-$88 dollars, for name-brand, top-of-the-line blue jeans.

http://www.usstuff.com/jeans.htm

And, get this: if you can stoop to buy Land's End or LL Bean, you can spend $50 on the jeans, and use your other $80 to buy yourself a "union" toaster cover.

:eyes:

[leesa]

17. It's a good trend to me! Let the nonsense go.

[Stuckinthebush]

18. Oh, yes....and we need to dress better on airplanes too!

I've always had little use for the dress police. The old "dress codes" are a way to easily identify the haves and have-nots. Who has "good" upbringing? See what they are wearing! Who knows the rules of certain societies? See what they are wearing! Who has "class" and who doesn't? See what they are wearing!

Bunk.

Elitist bunk.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. Elitist, Huh?

Sweeping generalizations are so becoming.
The Professor

[Stuckinthebush]

24. Sometimes generalizations are accurate

Professor.

[ProfessorGAC]

25. Like When?

Convenient to provide no examples, isn't it? Perhaps like when they said my grandparents were greaseballs like all italians? Perhaps when they said all black people were lazy? Were those generalizations the good ones or the bad ones? They don't seem particulcarly accurate to me.

Or do you have the authority to decide which are the good ones and which are the bad ones? Are you the arbiter of accuracy?

You're credibility is already shot. You need not reply.

The Professor

[Danmel]

21. I am teaching my children to dress appropriately

Didn't we all slam Chaney for dressing like he was going to shovel the driveway for the Auschwitz memorial?

I took my kids to Lincoln Center for a NYC Ballet performance this past winter and we dressed nicely. My husband wore nice slacks, a dress shirt and sports jacket, my son did the same and my daughter and I wore nice slacks outfits (it was too cold for a dress). Half the people there were dressed in sweats, jeans like slobs. The place is gorgeous, the orchestra is wonderful, the dancers are beautiful, It seems . Their behavior was at the level of their dress.

Our clothes were not really pricey. But we were dressed appropriately. I also think it shows some respect to the performers to dress nicely.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I do like to have some standards!

[Igel]

26. It's a cultural thing.

A culture can change. Sometimes more quickly than some of the people it surrounds. Most cultural dress codes are silly.

The change in dress codes is no more significant than disposing of the old rule that you don't wear white until after Memorial Day and not after Labor Day. More generally, dark colors in winter/light in summer (with Labor Day/Mem. Day being the cutoffs). It makes sense in some climates, e.g., NYC, but certainly not others (Valley of the Sun).

[expatriate]

28. Personally, I like to dress well.

I was forced, due to financial difficulties, to wear nothing but ancient and worn sweats for some years in the past, and I was never so damn miserable. No matter how careful I was about hygeine and grooming my hair, makeup, having my clothes, such as they were, clean - I felt like a slob. Sloppy, messy, inappropriately dressed in all situations but mucking out the goats. So when my situation improved, so did my clothing.

However, I am far from rich. In fact, my financial standing is working class, and not the upper end of working class either. I make and design all my own clothing, using fabric bought from thrift stores. Over the years I've learned tailoring and am beginning on shoemaking. So though my clothing looks expensive and tailormade, often I paid only a few dollars for the components of a garment.

I also wear skirts and dresses exclusively, because pants look like absolute hell on me. I'm one of those women who just looks awful in pants, they draw attention to my worst attributes, and that makes me uncomfortable - so for me, skirts and dresses are comfortable clothing, while pants are uncomfortable clothing. I don't wear heels, because I have foot problems (one of the reasons I'm learning to make my own shoes), but I like nice shoes, and even have walking shoes that look tailored. I don't care for the look of sports shoes, personally.

I'm more comfortable dressed in a manner that most people would consider "dressed up" - but I'm more than ready to acknowledge that most people would consider my mode of dress uncomfortable. That's fine with me - I don't want to dictate what anyone else wears any more than I want what I wear dictated to me.

My only gripe with people being casual is not a matter of clothing, but a matter of behavior. Lots of folks don't seem to have any idea of when a certain standard of behavior is required - but I don't think for a minute that putting them in more formal clothing will change the way they behave. I've seen plenty of people dressed to the nines who acted like boors, while more casually dressed people in the same situation displayed excellent behavior.

Dress a pig in an evening gown - you still have a pig.

[barb162]

37. nice post

I also look lousy in pants but I wear them anyway as they are still more comfortable to me than skirts. As long as the pants have some stretch I am fine. Small waist and big hips means I can never find a pair of pants that fit without some elastic around the waist.

There is a bit too much dressing down right now I think. And I am sick of seeing everyone's flabby middles with the short waisted tops women and girls are wearing right now. Why do we get treated to everyone's navels, flab and rear end cracks these days. Very few people can actually wear those things attractively.

[shanti]

49. exactly!

what is it with the belly showing? and i don't mean a flat belly, but the young girls now seem to think that letting all of their fat hang out is attractive. :eyes: and wearing hiphuggers when your waist is larger than your hips. i won't even start about pregnant women showing their bare pregnant bellies in public either. some things are meant to be covered up and not for general consumption!

[barb162]

54. ditto! Can't wait till winter and people start covering up

[marshall]

31. Sexist dress codes

When I taught high school they tried to institute a dress code policy for teachers that said men had to wear collared button up shirts with ties and women could wear casual sweat pant outfits that to me looked like pajamas. I protested and said it would send the wrong impression to students to have men dress so formally (and elicit greater respect) while women looked like they just crawled out of bed. I won out and men were not required to wear ties and could also wear polo type pullover shirts as long as they had a collar.
I now work at a university and we have a summer dress code policy. Last year we were told women could wear knee length shorts but men could not. I was very opposed to that. As far as I'm concerned it is like having different policies for one race and the other.
This summer they have altered it a little--women can wear capri type pants and there is no mention of men wearing anything other than slacks. I'm not as opposed to it this summer because they don't specifically bar men from doing something women are allowed to do, they just don't mention it.

[GalleryGod]

32. Great Article! Amen! Thanks for the Link!

eom:applause:

[Tracer]

33. My daughter and I are going to an opera this Sunday ...

... I'll have to be sure to check out what other attendees are wearing to see if congenital sloppiness has infected Boston.

It's a matinee, so I don't expect gowns and tuxes!

[theboss]

36. The problem with casual dress is that it's infecting everything

My office went casual last year so I write this in jeans and a golf shirt. I guess it's okay since I rarely deal with clients.

But what bothers me is that people no longer seem to dress well anywhere. I went to New York a few weeks ago to see Glengarry Glen Ross. I wore a sport coat and tie; my girlfriend wore a dress. I've never felt so overdressed in my life.

And I've been to too many weddings and funerals lately where people wear jeans and t-shirts.

I think customs are important and we are losing too many.

And before someone gets on me about expense. You can buy a nice jacket, pants and tie for about $100 in a discount store and wear it for years. If you really think that anyone can be too poor to dress well, I will tell you to go to an inner-city church on Easter.

[Logansquare]

39. I was stunned to see adults at my nephew's baptism

wearing jeans and puffy white sneakers. During past discussions of this phenomenon, some people have defended casual dress at church as a factor dictated by income. Well, this congregation is mostly white and middle to upper income, so that doesn't track for me. It's cultural, and I must say that it's an aspect of my European-American culture that I'm not too pleased with.

If you went to any black church in Chicago, even in the poorest neighborhoods, the men are wearing suits or at least very nice shirts and slacks, and the women are in dresses, dress pantsuits, and most often nice hats.

[Kraklen]

38. I'm sure the Taliban is very upset.

Honestly, what kind of asshole judges a person on the way they dress?

[theboss]

40. Say you needed an attorney...

Would you hire one who was sitting behind his desk wearing cut-off jeans and an old Whitesnake t-shirt?

[barb162]

69. or how about a doctor or banker

[Kraklen]

77. Reductio ad absurdum.

But you do bring up one good point. What kind of asshole juror would judge a client based on his attorney's clothes?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

90. Actually

I hired one that was sitting behind a desk weaing overall shorts and sandals. So to answer that question, yes I would. I needed a lawyer, not a model.

[MadHound]

41. Great, more pretentious blather

Quite frankly I think most formal dress for men is uncomfortable as hell, and I will not where it unless the situation expressly calls for it, wedding, funeral, etc. I find dress codes at restraunts and nightclubs to be pretentious and unneeded. When I wish to go out to a restraunt or bar, I wish to be comfortable, not laced up tight in extra layers of clothing. In fact if the establishment in question does have a dress code, I won't go there.

I also find the notion of judging a person by their clothing to be quite disgusting and shallow. I really don't care if the person, be it a lawyer, doctor, banker, whatever dresses quite casually, just so long as they can get the job done right. Yes, I do have some standards, but those deal mostly with cleanliness.

In fact some of the meanest, most evil people I've known came in a buttoned down suit. Take George Bush or Dick Cheney for instance.

Besides, this all seems like a scheme to get the public to by more of their overpriced formal wear. Get over yourselves people, it is just cloth and closures, geez don't be that shallow.

[smirkymonkey]

66. Thank you!

I couldn't have put it any better.

I don't live my life to impress other people anymore. I know how to dress apropriately for various occassions, but I value people based upon their individual merits - not what they are wearing.

[lastliberalintexas]

80. Depending on the situation, though,

it can certainly be a sign of disrespect. While a very poor cousin of mine showing up at my grandfather's funeral in his "best" overalls, neatly pressed, was certainly fine with me- it was not fine when another cousin of very wealthy parents showed up in holey, bleached out jeans that probably cost as much as the other cousin earns in a month. It's almost like porn- you know the "bad" casual wear when you see it. :)


I also think it is ironic because so much of the trendy casual wear which wouldn't seem elitist is much more expensive than a pair of khakis and a button down from Target.

[devilgrrl]

42. Sorry, gorgeous casual attire is f***ing expensive!!!!!!

I'd go bankrupt if I had to buy at Ann Taylor, Bloomingdales, Nordstrom's etc. Sorry that shit is expensive, did anyone ever think of that?

[Kitsune]

43. I'm sure that what I choose to wear is is really important to some people

But frankly, I could give two shits what other people think of me.

[bicentennial_baby]

44. I have to buy new clothes before I go to Paris

Apparently, they actually care how they look over there, unlike me. :P No shorts! No sneakers! No t-shirts! No tank tops! I'm gonna be uncomfortable, but when in Rome...

[barb162]

70. well, everywhere in Europe it seems they dress up more than we do

at least that's my take

[chaska]

51. Eff clothes!

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

52. I work at a small exclusive law firm in the trendy

Meatpacking District in New York City. If you know this area, you will know it has some designer boutiques like Stella McCartney and Alexander McQueen. A lot of artists and models live in this area. Yet, all you see is jeans and sneakers. Surely, they are the expensive kind.

Our own office has adopted a very very casual attire code. Our boss attorney always wears a ratty t-shirt and hole-y jeans. He meets with these super famous people all the time and they too come in dressed very casually.

I like this dress code. I feel like myself. In my previous jobs at high powered law firms, I had strict dress codes. But I'm also a plus-size gal and finding decent clothes for my size that don't look like tents, and at decent prices, is very hard.

Of course, when I go to a nice restaurant, a play or on a cruise, I dress appropriately for the occasion, but I love my current dress code at work.

[bumblebee1]

53. I work in a warehouse,

My company allows us to dress almost anyway we want. There are a few standards they enforce: No spaghetti strap tops, no midriff baring shirts, no "daisy dukes," just to name a few.

It surprised me to see some people show up at my mother-in-law's funeral dressed in jeans and sneakers. My brother-in-law showed up in his work clothes. After the service and burial, he went to his job at the moving company.

I'm not rich, but, I think there is a certain way to dress for certain occasions.

[barb162]

72. I think so too. I would never go to a funeral home or funeral

without being dressed in dark and tasteful clothe. Yes,"there is a certain way to dress for certain occasions"

[UdoKier]

58. Gee, after a 12 hour work day...

What could be more fun than putting on the suit that you had to go drop off and pick up at the dry cleaners?

They should be glad if people come in slacks and polo shirts.

Granted, if I go to a really nice place, I don't want to see people in holey jeans and tank tops, but there is a happy medium - it needn't be suits and ties.

[lastliberalintexas]

81. I don't think everyone's asking for suits and ties

I do get rather tired of seeing girls and women in barely there t-shirts, boys and men who look like they haven't bathed in a week, and holey, bleached out denim that is somehow supposed to look cool. I don't need to be able to see the pubic bones of every other female I pass (have you seen how low those hiphuggers have gotten?). I don't need to see 3 day old stubble on some frat boy who thinks it's cool and makes him look tough.

If these people were struggling financially, it would be one thing. But the crappy clothes they are wearing are actually more expensive than the suit (whether second hand or not) I wear to court!

I do understand the concerns about elitism. But I don't think most people are asking the general public to walk around in tuxedos and ball gowns or designer clothing. At least I'm not.

[BiggJawn]

67. Restaurants?

Does me wearing a jacket or one of those ridiculous neck-dildoes make the food better?

Shaw should be glad his snooty feed troughs aren't like airlines. I MIGHT give him some slack when diners start showing up unbathed in their pajamas...

[TrogL]

71. I used to have to dress formally at the office

Then they expected me to crawl around on the floor chasing network cables.

When I'd ripped three suits in one month I told them to stuff it.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

75. Jesus, the wages and salaries have never been lower

now they want us to get in a tie and a jacket? These people are long overdue for a serious fucking reckoning.

[Bouncy Ball]

86. When I was a technical writer in the mid-90s,

I remember hearing other tech writers say "when they pay me enough to wear expensive dress clothes every day, I will..."

[SlavesandBulldozers]

92. i agree with them

i get pissed when my company has these "Corporate Dress Days" (when somebody important comes in). Firstly, because it's so smarmy and deceptive, and secondly because I have to act like I'm a yuppy when I'm paid like I'm a piece of shit.

[bettys boy]

76. There's a difference between

"casual" and "sloppy", and we've crossed over it. Hell, here in the Northwest it's difficult to not appear overdressed even at job interviews, the symphony, jury duty, etc (I'm not a Northwest native).

A large plurality just don't give a damn about style, or what's appropriate for a given occasion. If there's a dress code here it's REI.

My own pet peeve is footwear - the ubiquitous sandals, running shoes, basketball shoes.

OTOH, I can't stand seeing clones in khakis and polo shirts, either.
Jeans can be professional looking in the right ensemble, but nobody here seems to put any thought into it.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

91. What is killing me

is every one here is stating their opinion and tastes in clothing. I think we can all agree that that there are plenty of people out there who take the idea of casual dress too far. However, because you don't happen to like sandals really means nothing other than just that. You don't like sandals. I personally hate pantyhose. But I don't complain about people who wear them. I also don't much care for pointy toed shoes but if that's yout thing knock yourself out. And the color yellow can be banished from the face of all clothing and it would not hurt my feelings one bit.

All this is is a bunch of people complaining because everyone doesn't have the same taste in clothing as them and that is really silly.

[eridani]

94. REI makes a great dress code

Didn't you know that the native pelt of the Pacific Northwesterner was Goretex? I generally find that people are pretty clean unless they are homeless.

[Bouncy Ball]

84. I'm not overly concerned with how people dress.

I left that behind as a teenager. Obviously, I want to be dressed appropriately for every occasion, but I just use common sense and if I get a chance to see how others are dressing for the same occasion/place, I go with the flow.

Eh. There are such HUGE issues in the world today I just can't see spending more time on it than it takes to type this.

[bigwillq]

89. "Dressing up" for work

doesn't make anyone do their work any better or any worse.

I am more comfortable in casual clothes and feel I am more productive if I am comnfortable.

[hemp_not_war]

93. well I think its a good thing

I hate dressing up. Not just because it's uncomfortable but because the way I feel. Dress is part of age old class divisions, and it is my nature to tear down things like racism and class divisions. I notice for the younger generation minorities in CA dress up more when they go out while whites go more casual. Probably because being white you are thrown kind of a guilt trip for being priviliged in America because your a white male. The system is rigged for me I am told. So I say, no can't be true, it's not about how you look, and grow a beard and dress sloppy to see what happens. Turns out though, looks do have a lot to do with success. I don't think people should be judged by their looks. It's a messed up thing, but Outfoxed points out how everybody trusts Shawn Hannity because he is good looking, healthy, well trimmed, etc, yet the liberal guy Combs has this kind of squirrely or weaselly look, his glasses might be crooked or something. To most people out there this can affect their whole judgement on who to agree with. These media news guys and politicians, their all liars but their looks and their suits get them by. I've read books about the mafia, the cia, politicians out of control, the greatest criminals always have a thing for wearing suits. Peaceful people like Jesus and hippies are really lax on the dress code. I don't think it's a coincidence.

[Nobody]

95. I wear jeans because they last longer

Every pair of dress pants I have ever owned wore out before I had them a year. Jeans last longer and therefore are a higher value. When my income was slashed, my budget got slashed to the bone.

No way am I spending money I don't have on clothes. I hate clothes shopping anyway.

Due to my goiter, I can't stand wearing any shirt with a collar. I feel suffocated. Fortunately I'm a woman and don't have to wear a tie.

I've found that black denim lasts longer and looks more stylish than dockers. Especially once you've washed them several times.