One of the things you keep hearing about Vietnam

[cornermouse]

That we continually took ground and then gave it back up.

Looking at the latest attack on some Iraqi town really makes you wonder if that isn't exactly what we're doing now. Its just not being reported by our so-called "embedded" reporters.

[Kagemusha]

1. Some are reporting it but no one's acting like they care

Caring is the bigger problem.

People see no alternative but to wave the flag and Cheer Louder. Which is Bush's plan.

[cornermouse]

3. I care.

[Kipling]

2. Was there embedded reporting in Vietnam?

[cornermouse]

4. I think the current reporters are both pressured by their

supervisors not to report anything troubling and unable to leave their hotels due to the fondness the "insurgents" have for kidnapping and beheading people. It seems the muslim's bloodthirst works against them.

[EFerrari]

8. Nothing like today. And that's what the GOP learned from

Viet Nam. Not "don't fight gratuitous wars" but "control the press".

Pretty disgusting, isn't it?

[cornermouse]

14. Yes. It is disgusting.

They are completely devoid of morals and ethics.

[ngGale]

5. It is exactly what we are doing now and...

we are hearing the same excuses. With more men, a few more years, get the insurgents under control. History repeating itself, deja vu all over again. Feel like my life is on 'replay.'

[KharmaTrain]

6. How About "No Exit Strategy"

That old chestnut popped into my head listening to some arm chair generals babbling on about how this is a long, hard fight and how we have to stay "until the job is done". Is that job removing the last drop of oil???

Our overstretched military is literally having boys do a man's job. National Guard and Reserve units are playing MP and comandoes throughout the country...and there aren't enough of them to be effective.

Thus, the game is played where there are massive shows of force to "show we mean business"...then once the area is "pacified", troops are withdrawn. Yep, the military equivelent of a circle jerk. It's really meant to terrorize the local populace into some form of submission...and it didn't work in Vietnam and it won't work here.

Here's another one to chew on: Mission Creep

[amber dog democrat]

12. It didn't work on the Eastern Front either.

I swear some of what happened in the pacification actions of the last couple of years made me think of the Wehrmacht in the Warsaw Ghetto, or Occupied Europe in general, but especially in Russia. There are some broad differences howevever.

There, war was officially declared between sovereign states and Germany was up against an ever stregnthing adversary, and in Vietnam, again the US was up against
the unified political leadership of a people who had plenty of practice in fighting the Japanese and defeating the French, before they defeated us.

How could we have " won " in Vietnam ? With nukes ?

This is more of a mess with political, ethnic, religious factions embroiled against each other and the occupying powers. This effort to impose a " democratic " government on Iraq seems doomed from the beginning and not too well thought out.

I have this gnawing feeling that in the end all we are doing in prolonging military action.

I wonder how we'll declare victory and leave THIS time. Its too bad Iraq has so much oil.

[Toots]

13. "Exit Strategy" was part of the "Powell Doctrine"

It was hammered on daily during Clinton's term because of our troops in Kosovo and Bosnia. I did not agree with such a thing then and I do not agree with it now. This is one of the only things I agree with the Administration over. If you publicize when you plan on pulling your troops out you give the enemy ammunition. On the other hand if adequate planning had gone into what we would do after Saddam was toppled (Winning the Peace) We might have actually accomplished something beneficial even though it is all based on illegalities. No sound planning and because of that more than a thousand more US troops have been killed and no end in sight. Incompetence at the very highest levels. Most Criminals are incompetent or they would not be criminal. If they could get it done the honest way they would but they are not competent enough to do so.

[KharmaTrain]

15. Excellent Points Well Taken

We can agree that different missions require different tactics. Bosnia was a larger NATO effort and the debate was not only about our being involved but how involved with our "allies" we would be.

Yes, putting a date in stone as to a withdrawl date is wrong and the vaccuum it creates may ultimately do worse harms to our already shattered interests and reputation in the region than today.

At the outset of this invasion, I said the only real legitimate "exit" here would be to turn over the country to a Pan-Arab organization, such as the Arab League, in conjunction with the UN and NATO to restore some balance to the country and allow us to withdraw with some dignity. Right now I see helicopters atop the last few held Green Zone buildings as we're driven from that country by an even bigger rebellion than we're seeing now. So the question is pick your poison.

The post-invasion pillaging of that country and the on-going profiteering hasn't gotten much investigating as the run-up to this invasion has riled up so many and the current situation is diverting attention from others.

As long as this regime refuses to admit even the smallest mistakes and doesn't care what the rest of the world has to say, more American will die and die needlessly. As I always ask those who support this invasion..."If we "Democratize" Iraq, what will it really mean to you?" Besides the usual flag waiving...which is easily dispatched when I ask the question a second time...there's usually no answer. Then the next question is "was it worth all the American lives...not to mention the innocent people caught in the crossfire...for this?" Maybe some guilt may settle in.

Cheers

[catnhatnh]

7. Let's not forget....

..."Body Counts" which I have heard in Iraq and our old friend "Kill Ratio" who, I assure you, is right around the corner....

[DemoTex]

9. I watched "Hamburger Hill" again last night.

In ten bloody days in May, 1969 (May 10-20) on a muddy hill in the A Shau Valley the 101st Airborne Division lost 56 men. In that futile battle for Ap Bai mountain, the 101st suffered 70% casualties. The NVA had 633 soldiers killed. The 101st took the hill, then were ordered to walk away. War at its worst - men at their best.

[leftchick]

10. I saw that for the first time a few weeks ago.

It is one of the saddest movies about Vietnam I have ever seen.
War Sucks! Bring em Home!

:(

[Yupster]

18. A division has about 12,000 soldiers in it

I don't think the 101st Airborne lost 8,000 men.

That would be worse than Pickett's Division at Gettysburg or Hood's at Sharpsburg.

[DemoTex]

20. The element of the 101st at Ap Bai Dong lost 56 men KIA.

I don't think we ever committed an entire division to any single operation in RVN. Those actually going up and down the hill at Ap Bai were in "B" Company, if my memory serves me correctly.

[amber dog democrat]

11. America betryaed its self in Vietnam, and also in Iraq

I think a key difference might be in that the planners and archetects of the Iraq invasion and occupation were determined to create a political vacuum and set things up so that we'd have on going access to Middle Eastern oil. Look at how many petroleum industry operatives are in the Chimp Admin.

That said, the lies and deceptions, miscalculations, and political grandstanding appears to be of a similar nature. Also I might add the enevitable conclusion appears to be the same as well - at a cost of many, many more lives to come.

We are led by war criminals.

[ThomWV]

16. "Took Ground" Is The Myth

The notion of taking ground comes from every war before Viet Nam and none since. There was never any intent to move forward, as a weather front might, repelling the enemy to the front and sides while holding secure all behind. That is what essentially happened in WW-II and so the notion held fast by the reporters of the Viet Nam era. It was an outdated notion by that time though. The goal in Viet Nam was simple - go where the enemy is and kill him. Repair to post and wait to find and kill him again.

The same seems to be the case in Iraq. Go out and kill, come home and rest, find a reason to go to another area and go kill some more. None of it has anything to do with holding ground and in fact the great error in perception by our military and political leaders is that the assume that all of the ground is ours in the first place.

This is just how it looks to me, you may comment on my errors in judgment if you like.

[cornermouse]

17. This would appear to be a policy that has a few problems.

I'd ennumerate them, but the fact is the problems would appear to be pretty evident. Basically, your take on this sort of puts me in mind of someone searching for an object by sifting a desert of sand with nothing more than their fingers.

[POAS]

19. Exactly on point

The "enemy" is not behind some "front line", there are no trenches and there is no ground to take.

In Nam the enemy was all around. A soldier might be doing battle in the morning with regulars from the north in the countryside and be dodging bullets sprayed from the back of a Vespa in the afternoon. A saigon bar girl servicing a privates parts at night mught be using what he told her the next morning to kill his buddies in an ambush.

In Iraq much the same is taking place, minus the bar girls (maybe).

Ambushed soldiers know the crowds gathered to gawk probably contain spies for the insrgents scouting out vulnerabilities for the nest attack.

Iraqi soldiers and police are blown up at lunch by men who if not real police are at least dressed as such.

In places like Ramadi the troops go in and sweep for ghosts because the enemy has already left and gone into hiding only to return and take control of the streets when the soldiers return to the relative safety of their "compounds".

In Nam the military pointed to victory with body counts that came back to haunt them. In Iraq they pointedly said there would be no body counts. Now, lacking in news that supports the great leaders rhetoric on accomplishments in the war on "terra", the military returns to body counts.

Militaries always prepare to fight the last war. In this case they appear about two wars behind.