David Kelly was murdered

[ck4829]

Connect the dots. The DSM is one thing we must look at and we also must look at Dr. David Kelly.

I don't think he committed suicide.

1. David Kelly was an adherent of the Bahá'í Faith.
Baha'i teachings FORBID suicide.

2. Paramedics see something amiss.
Dave Bartlett and Vanessa Hunt, the two paramedics who were called to the scene of Kelly's death, have since gone public with their view that there was not enough blood at the location to justify the belief that he died from blood loss. Bartlett and Hunt told The Guardian that they saw a small amount of blood on plants near Kelly's body and a patch of blood the size of a coin on his trousers. They said they would expect to find several pints of blood at the scene of a suicide involving an arterial cut.

3. Method of suicide is unusual.
The alleged method of suicide a self inflicted knife wound to the wrist is 1) a method of suicide extremely seldom used by men, and 2) a method of suicide that is seldom successful as it takes such a long time to die.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0307/S00165.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly

[H2O Man]

1. I've never been comfortable

with the official story. I'm becoming more uncomfortable when I think about it in the context of the DSM.

[Clark2008]

2. Of course he was murdered

Anyone who thinks differently either doesn't have the facts or will buy anything to justify supporting the BFEE.

[oblivious]

6. Yup. Hands over their eyes and ears. Nooo! Our leaders wouldn't do that!

Only good upstanding moral people would seek positions of power. Evil people would NEVER seek power. Unthinkable!

[FreedomAngel82]

30. Yep

If they could get away with killing Kennedy they could do it to this guy as well.

[Clark2008]

35. Exactly.

Compared to the national leaders who have been "suicided," this guy was small potatoes.

[Supersedeas]

3. Bingo: the DSM is just one thing...now, for the rest of the story

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

4. There is no doubt that he was suicided.

There is a group of British physicians that requested an inquest because according to the official story, there was no way Kelly could have died the way they claimed he did.

From the Wikipedia article:

Alternative theories
Although suicide was officially accepted as the cause of death, some medical experts have raised doubts, suggesting that the evidence does not back this up. The most detailed objection was provided in a letter from three medical doctors published in The Guardian <3> (http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,1131833,00.html). The doctors argue that the autopsy finding of a transection of the could not have caused a degree of blood loss that would kill someone, and that there was only a minimal amount of blood found at the scene. They also contend that the amount of co-proxamol found was only about a third of what would normally be fatal.

The Hutton Inquiry took priority over an inquest, which would normally be required into a suspicious death <4> (http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/detail.asp?ReleaseID=90793&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromDepartment=True). The Oxfordshire coroner Nicholas Gardiner considered the issue again in March 2004. After reviewing evidence that had not been presented to the Hutton Inquiry, Gardiner decided that there was no need for further investigation. This conclusion did not satisfy those who had raised doubts, but there has been no alternative explanation for Kelly's death.

Dave Bartlett and Vanessa Hunt, the two paramedics who were called to the scene of Kelly's death, have since gone public with their view that there was not enough blood at the location to justify the belief that he died from blood loss. Bartlett and Hunt told The Guardian that they saw a small amount of blood on plants near Kelly's body and a patch of blood the size of a coin on his trousers. They said they would expect to find several pints of blood at the scene of a suicide involving an arterial cut <5> (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4089729.stm) <6> (http://www.guardian.co.uk/hutton/story/0,13822,1372077,00.html).

However, two of Britain's top forensic pathologists, Professor Chris Milroy and Professor Guy Rutty, dismissed the paramedics' claims, saying it is hard to judge blood loss from the scene of a death, as some blood may have seeped into the ground. Professor Milroy also told The Guardian that Kelly's heart condition may have made it hard for him to sustain any significant degree of blood loss. <7> (http://www.guardian.co.uk/hutton/story/0,13822,1372404,00.html)

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. Indeed he was murdered

because he knew Blair and the idiot were LYING about WMD.

Now, all we need is the murderer to come forward and tell us why he murdered Kelly. :sarcasm:

Just another BFEE suicide.

[mopaul]

7. yes, he was, and i wonder why?

right in front of our eyes, just as bold as you please, he was murdered.

[Karenina]

10. And he's not the only one...

Mighty DANGEROUS work these days...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3891807

[jobycom]

8. Maybe, maybe not. Let's stay focused on what we can prove

I've never seen a suicide that didn't seem suspicious. The arguments against David Kelly's suicide are similar to the Vince Foster arguments. Vince talked about suicide for months, even describing the method he would use, and showed all the classic symptoms, and yet the Repubs are convinced it was murder.

Kelly's case isn't as clear cut, but it's still possible. The cut he made or received would have bleed slowly, allowing blood to soak into the ground. He had heart problems. He had a prescription drug in his system. Heart problems cause depression, which, along with the stress of the investigation, could have driven him to a sudden decision of suicide. Blood loss combined with the heart condition combined with the drugs in his blood could have caused death more quickly than expected, and of course death would have stopped the bleeding, so there's be less blood visible.

There were doctors who claimed Vince Foster couldn't have killed himself, too, and there were stories that the paramedics on the scene didn't believe it was a suicide. The news is full of people who have died because paramedics made wrong assumptions or doctors diagnosed the wrong ailment. It's so frequent that most of us reading this can name at least one person who has died from medical error or misdiagnosis.

I'm not saying he killed himself, or that he was murdered, I'm saying that no argument we can make from third hand evidence is going to prove anything. Like Wellstone, like Cliff Baxter, like Ken Hatfield or Abbie Hoffman. It's good to remain suspicious, but we won't prove anything. Let's bring them down on what we can prove, and who knows what will fall from the tree when we shake the trunk hard enough.

Just my take on the matter. Please don't read this as a lecture against making up your own minds, since I ain't convinced it was suicide, either.

[H2O Man]

11. Interesting.

I've seen numerous suicides that were very clearly suicides. And even Joseph Wilson wrote about his friends' suspicions about the Kelly case.

However, I think that you may be right that this type of discussion works best -- at this point -- in a DU setting. Letters to the editor, and petitions to congressional representatives, should focus on two things: the need for a congressional investigation into the DSM, and a plan to get our military out of Iraq now.

[jobycom]

14. Yeah

My first sentence was too strong. Should have said "A lot of suicides seem suspicious," rather than "I've never seen a suicide that wasn't suspicious." Obviously, some are quite clear cut, as you point out. I won't edit the post, though, so it doesn't undercut what you say. Thanks for the correction.

And thanks for seeing what I was saying, rather than getting hung up on my first line. I've said it before, and I'll say it now--I should eat breakfast before I post!

[H2O Man]

18. Right.

The idea of staying focused is important. We can't fight every battle, address every potential wrong-doing, or do much about something which may have happened in England. It does perhaps explain why some public figures appear a bit hesitant about confronting the beast.

When a tactic is working, stick with it. The DSM has caught the public's attention. The administration wants it to go away, like other situations that they have been able to control. The efforts from the grass roots has made all the difference here: the democratic left is gaining strength. We should stick with what is working.

[Kipling]

9. The creepiest thing is...

After a tough day at work shortly before his death, he was heard to say "if it goes on like this I'm going to end up bleeding to death in a wood". Or something like that. But if it was a murder, who did it? I don't know. Blair's arrogant, narrow-minded, a brown-noser, and a traitor to the left, but I honestly don't believe he would order someone killed in such a totally evil way. People can do terrible things like the Iraq war, and yet the murder of a single person seems to be a lot worse somehow.

[EFerrari]

12. It seems worse because we can't completely wrap our minds

around the fact that like Bush, Blair sent British troops to their death for a lie.

[1932]

17. IIRC, the actual context for that quote is the following:

He was commenting to someone that his activities in Iraq put him in a precarious position. He was working all his Iraqi contacts to get good information, but the Iraqis felt that if they gave him too much, they were giving him the evidence that would encourage war, and if they gave him too little, they wouldn't give him enough to stop the invasion. IIRC, he was saying that if he didn't' get the balance exactly right and if Iraq were then invaded, his Iraqi contacts were going to have him killed.

[1932]

13. I listened to his family testify and they had no doubt it was suicide.

They said he was depressed and that his behaviour was consistent with suicide.

Re the blood loss insufficient argument, he died on the grass. Blood is only slighly thicker than water. Go outside and poor a couple pints of water on the ground, go back 8 hours later and tell me what you see.

Cutting your wrist with a knife is unusual? Uh, ok.

It's not manly? They guy was British. Mick Jagger is considered manly in the UK.

[Karmakaze]

16. Blood is only slightly thicker than water?

Maybe (although "slightly" seems a bit of an understatement), but water doesn't coagulate, whereas blood does. If the blood was seeping out over a long period of time, then the first lot would be coagulating in the soil, binding it and making it less able to soak up the next lot, and so on.

In otherwords, blood doesn't soak in to ANYTHING without leaving a visible amount on the surface. This also fails to explain the lack of blood on his clothing. One little coin size stain is nowhere NEAR enough. If the blood had flowed from a wound for a long period, the blood MUST have ended up soaked into the clothing under the body.

Yet it didn't. Why?

[H2O Man]

19. I'm an old farm boy

who did a heck of a lot of hunting and fishing. I could track any animal that had even a small open wound. I certainly couldn't track someone spilling water on the ground.

[1932]

22. 8 to 12 hours later? After a rain?

[H2O Man]

24. Well, to be honest,

I never had to track anything in the rain. A good hunter should be able to drop any animal, simply because the rain allows you to get very close.

I could track anything, even 24 hours after it was wounded. And I'm no exception. Any good hunter could.

[1932]

21. He cut his wrist, laid it at his side, the blood seeped into the ground.

If you were a girl, you'd know that cold water rinses out blood very easly.

Blood ran down his arm, into the ground, and even if it coagulated, it almost certainly rained (it always rains in England) and, thus, rinsed deeper into the ground, and therefore: little evidence of blood.

It's not a low-probability scenario.

They guy took drugs to dull the pain, and the bleeding, no doubt, was slow, so he was almost definitely conscious as it started.

Why is it unlikely that an unmanly wrist-cutter (apparently a preferred method for a girl) wouldn't try to keep the blood off his clothes.

Don't girlish wrist-cutters tend to hold their wrists over the sink when they start, and only get blood on themselves when they pass out and fall down?

If Kelly cut his wrist and made sure it dripped into the ground rather than on himself, and then passed out in the sitting position, it seems totally consistent that he wouldn't have blood on himself.

[kittenpants]

28. blood doesn't wash away that easily

particularly in cold water. I think it's possible the lying of the Brit gov't led the a suicide, but it's also possible they would kill. They certainly don't mind killing Iraqis.

[JohnyCanuck]

31. Our doubts about Dr Kelly's suicide

As specialist medical professionals, we do not consider the evidence given at the Hutton inquiry has demonstrated that Dr David Kelly committed suicide.

Dr Nicholas Hunt, the forensic pathologist at the Hutton inquiry, concluded that Dr Kelly bled to death from a self-inflicted wound to his left wrist. We view this as highly improbable. Arteries in the wrist are of matchstick thickness and severing them does not lead to life-threatening blood loss. Dr Hunt stated that the only artery that had been cut - the ulnar artery - had been completely transected. Complete transection causes the artery to quickly retract and close down, and this promotes clotting of the blood.

The ambulance team reported that the quantity of blood at the scene was minimal and surprisingly small. It is extremely difficult to lose significant amounts of blood at a pressure below 50-60 systolic in a subject who is compensating by vasoconstricting. To have died from haemorrhage, Dr Kelly would have had to lose about five pints of blood - it is unlikely that he would have lost more than a pint.

<snip>

David Halpin
Specialist in trauma and orthopaedic surgery

C Stephen Frost
Specialist in diagnostic radiology

Searle Sennett
Specialist in anaesthesiology

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,1131833,00.html

[oblivious]

23. Depressed? I guess I missed that. I know they said 'tired' and 'stressed'.

Mrs Kelly: He was obviously very stressed. We then made our way home. He drove. Again he insisted on driving home. He did not speak at all during that journey. He was very tense and very, very tired.

< On Thursday July 17 > We got up at about half past eight. It is rather later than normal. We were both tired.

He was tired, subdued, but not depressed. I have no idea. He had never seemed depressed in all of this, but he was very tired and very subdued.

...I just thought he had a broken heart. He had shrunk into himself. He looked as though he had shrunk, but I had no idea at that stage of what he might do later, absolutely no idea at all.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/hutton/story/0,13822,1033914,00.html

[1932]

36. Her testimony is about how upet he was.

Of course she didn't predict it (or she would have stopped it). If I have time, I'll read through the rest of his family's testimony and find the parts where they say they don't think he was murdered and that they're sure it was suicide.


{ On arrival in Cornwall } I could not comfort him. He seemed to withdraw into himself completely. And I decided that the best I could do, and I made a policy thing here then that I would keep him properly fed, good food, attractive food and then keep him occupied as pleasantly as possible. So although he was less stressed in one sense, he was more upset by now.

{ Asked how he reacted to the press coverage} He was upset. He did not like his name being in the public domain. He did not like being - becoming the story.

On the Friday we decided to go to the Lost Gardens of Heligan. It was only a short drive so we thought that would be apt after the long day or two before.

We spent a long morning there during which he had taken a call from several people from MoD explaining about the foreign affairs committee on the Tuesday and an intelligence committee the following Wednesday.

{ Asked about his reaction to the FAC being televised } He was ballistic. He just did not like that idea at all. He felt it - he did not say this in so many words but he felt it would be a kind of continuation of a kind of reprimand into the public domain.

He was really upset. I had hoped the morning would be positive and pleasurable for him. He did not see the gardens at all. He was in a world of his own. He was really quite stressed, very strained, and conversation was extremely difficult.

[Ms. Clio]

38. It simply would not work

Wrist-cutting almost never works as a method of suicide, or cemeteries would be full of people who have cut themselves in a desperate moment or as a cry for help.

The only time it really works is if the victim is in a hot bath, and slices lengthwise down both arms -- that's the way the Romans used to do it.

[biscotti]

15. Yes

Whacked.

[DemoTex]

20. Nah, Kelly was Cliff Baxter-ed or Jim Hatfield-ed.

Or perhaps, Lars-Erik Nelson-ed.

[fla nocount]

26. Or Wellstone ed, or Carnahan ed, or JFK Jr. ed

That or this band of thugs is just uncommonly lucky. If accidents don't remove their obstacles then the obstacles remove themselves.

Screw fair and scientific, I'm going with my gut. I've yet to get over the anomalies of 9/11 and two stolen elections. I'm unwilling to lose my eye for the obvious..........let's see now, standing in the middle of the road with my eyes shut doesn't necessarily mean that I WILL get run over.

[applegrove]

25. He was going to be attacked for exaggerating the details on Iraqi

Arms. Fear of having to take responsibility for some grave action you were only partially responsible for..but for what you think you will end up holding the bag... is enough to push anyone over the edge.

Where sociopaths are concerned and their mind-games and myths and lies and propaganda...and the way they push and bully and prod people into actions they would not normally take... well, around such sociopaths as we have in the WH...the suicide of underlings is common. Since they make it policy to play with reality... people suffer for it.

Just playing with reality by say attacking someone in private and then denying it in public (like Bolton did)..is enough of a reality gap to put people on collision paths. Fortunately by the time Bolton came to light the sociopathy within this administration is well known..so the whistle blowers or victims are not alone and are readily believed as there are many of them and that means a pattern has been established.

But without a known pattern established in the history of the sociopaths - putting on a facade of normalcy while they bully, scare, destroy, milk intelligence, skew reality, is enough of a reality gap that people will go into bewilderment or will become patsies and follow the leader blindly...and then when the real truth begins to surface (as it did after Iraq was invaded) you see that you were lured into behaving in a way that wasn't you and if you have time to process it and re-establish the order of things you will be fine..but if you are forced into psychic shock...you will do any one of a number of things like going into shock or suicide. When he committed suicide it was not known so much how bullying and lying the Bush Admin was and how patsy-like the Brits played along with it. Most of that came out after. Why even the US Generals were bullied into cutting down the battle plan on Iraq into something that needed only minimal troops (to the end that the insurgency happened and for which Rumsfield has not resigned for).

Look at all the people who hurt themselves or went into shock after the last election. Does Bush care? No! That is part of the fun of winning for someone like Rove. That the lives of others are diminished. That means a great deal to sociopaths. Everything is relative to sociopaths and they will feel like they have won even more..the more little people are hurt.

Why do you think Saddam Hussein's & his son's ruined so many lives? It gives sadists great pleasure. If it had come out that the victim in this case had exaggerated intelligence on Iraq today, rather than 20 years ago...he may have been able to keep his cool.

Very sad for his family. Another reason why we need personality tests and MRI tests for all world leaders. Have we not got enough proof that sociopaths should never be allowed near any elected office anywhere? In this case the pressure on the guy was coming from the British press who were just realizing they had been patsies and lied too and wanted someone to take the blame for being pushovers other than themselves (they took the WH at its word).

That is what happens with the sociopaths. They 'create' a myth and then the rest of the world is left to crash into each other (and anyone with a good case for the nefariousness of the WH is attacked viciously).

[applegrove]

27. Correction: 2 years instead of 20. n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

29. Very interesting

I wouldn't be surprised if Bush had him killed. :mad: Same thing happened with Mr. Lemme who was working with Clint Curtis on the last election. He was found suicided they claimed but there were too many strange things.

[Blaze Diem]

32. What? You Mean WE WERE LIED TO?

This question about Kelly is like those, who had there heads in the sand about Bush, suddenly realizing they were lied to about IRAQ.

Haven't we been saying this stuff since day one?

[Henny Penny]

33. Murdered, and obviously so, in order to put the frighteners

on any other whistle blowers lurking under the surface. Worked for a while too.

[Blaze Diem]

34. Definately worked for awhile..and still would be if not for

the DSM and the persistance of bloggers and places like DU.
Bush hated us for our freedoms.

[LightningFlash]

37. Of course he was murdered.