I say humans have achieved survival and dominance

[sojourner]

as a species because they are intelligent, yes, but also because they are the most ruthless killers on the planet!

They kill any and everything without giving it much thought, even their own kind. They'll even construct a boat to carry them across water to kill others of their kind.

And they are capable of the most horrific depravity imaginable! They invented torture.

I'm ashamed to be a human.

[BlueStateModerate]

1. Wow.

I disagree. While humanity has the capacity to do terrible things, it also has the capacity to so many things that are beneficial to everyone. Just look at people like Jimmy Carter and those who work with him. Humanity has a wide range of good and bad, and I would argue that it's because of our intelligence that we are able to manifest that goodness or badness into real effects on the planet.

[sojourner]

7. I agree

that we are capable of some amazingly wonderful things. It's the killing that we DO and have done that inspired this thread.

[sojourner]

18. self-delete

[barb162]

39. agree and we rape the planet, destroy the air, etc for all other species

[Igel]

2. Predators are smarter than non-predators.

Herbivores are food. Predators eat meat and have to hunt.

But predators frequently also have to cooperate in ways that non-predators don't.

Depravity is human, by and large. On the other hand, so is altruism to others at a distance. The boats that carry soldiers also carry wheat.

It's a mixed bag.

[Deja Q]

28. And vice-versa, many prey species live in groups or flocks...

and call out when any one of them senses a predator.

[Igel]

34. True. Organizing who'll stand watch and then issuing

the warning requires a fair amount of cooperation: but a hierarchy and simple call handles that.

Organizing a hunt and corralling prey is a rather higher order of cooperation. And some non-human primates do a fairly good job.

So how did the last Dr ? go? (BTW, how is it you've been watching it--are you in the US, or Britain?)

[mopinko]

3. my son likes to say

what a different world we would live in if we had descended from gorillas instead of chimps. but of course, it is violence that raised us up.
BUT it was also cooperation. the framework of tribalism that arose from the chimp troops was as much the basis for success as the ability to organize attacks. and, imho, the real benefit was that early humans did not attack everything, they attacked when it made sense to attack, and cooperated when that made sense. so, reasoning is also an important part of our genetic heritage.
to me, the saddest part of the fundie takeover is that we do not look at our genetic past and learn from it.

[Cerridwen]

4. I agree with the dominance portion of your statement - tho I think

dominance is not necessarily a good thing.

I think, in fact, that it's counter to our survival. I don't know that as a whole humanity is surviving so much as existing. Yeah, yeah, hair-splitting and semantics. I think our "drive" for dominance will prove to be our downfall. But, hey, I'm a pacifist, socialist type. :D

[sojourner]

45. I lumped them together since dominance requires survival, yes?

But I agree with your assessment. Might be 'cause of similar world views? :-)

[Cerridwen]

66. 'Xactly :D n/t

[lapfog_1]

5. Ever see a cat play with a mouse?

There are many example of cruelty in the animal kingdom. We are not
that unique, however, like most human endeavors, we have taken the
art of killing (both animals and other humans) to unimagined "heights".

[sojourner]

13. That's my point...

we've taken killing to a point that no other species is capable of emulating.

[Yupster]

23. Agree lapfog

There are many animals who are much more cruel than humans.

If they had the power, they'd do a worse job of running the planet than we do.

[sojourner]

32. MORE cruel?

Please say how.

[H2O Man]

6. While we are good

at killing big things, there are little things that are capable of wiping out huge percentages of the human population.

[sojourner]

9. yeah...I think we wish those little things

would give us a better chance to kill them. They keep mutating everytime we think we've got 'em. Damn them!!!

[Lilith Velkor]

53. Kinda like cucarachas

Y'know, the ones who will survive and dominate if we take ourselves out the nookyular way.

[Mythsaje]

8. In the end

we are pack-oriented predators, not too terribly different from dogs or wolves.

Recognizing this, and learning to move beyond it (maybe seeing ALL humanity as our pack) will prove to be the key in becoming a better species in the long run.

[sojourner]

11. Since time began I see us

just improving and building on our killing technologies. How many peace-keeping technologies can you list that don't include threat or violence or other potentially lethal consequences?

Our whole focus as a pack is on how to kill others who we think may interfere with our survival - how are we to move beyond that?

[Mythsaje]

14. I was just talking with my father

about this very subject yesterday.

I think we ARE slowly 'pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps' as he put it. It's like a birthing process, evolution of mind being a violent, bloody business. But we're seeing positive developments throughout the world. Most of Europe has seen the light in many respects--its history is so rife with conflict and warfare that they now almost universally reject war as an option when other possibilities exist.

That's evolution. Compared to Europe's history, America is a young, infantile society that hasn't had to pay the price of continual war. But many of us 'progressives' actually get it.

It's a start.

[NuttyFluffers]

68. coincides with hegel's general take on history.

believed that we could look upon it as some sort of evolutionary progression. but that it also had wild swings from "left to right" as it moved up the "ladder" if you will. there's other stuff i don't agree with that he says, but his theory that you can learn from history as some sort of natural progression of man is an interesting concept. dunno how much water i hold in it though. several of the asian, african, and pre-colombian american societies i studied had some truly amazing things, especially in social tech, that i'd be inclined to say are more advanced than european/western societies at the time, and sometimes even to this day.

[misanthrope]

17. Wrong...

...wolves are a hell of a lot more loyal than humans.

[Mythsaje]

20. Depends...

on if they see their leadership as jeopardizing the survival of the pack, or if they see one member's weakness as being of particular danger to the pack. They will drive a pack member out or kill him/her outright if they see it as being in their best interest.

Dogs, on the other hand, have been bred for loyalty, and show that in their behavior. Wolves are primarily survival-oriented. To a great extent, this has been bred out of the dogs.

[misanthrope]

35. There is also...

...evidence from animal behaviorists of wolves taking care of pack members too ill or old to hunt. There is obviously a complexity of behavior there that we aren't even close to understanding.

Old World societies and their cultural offspring are still alarmingly eager to vilify canis lupus Linnaeus at every turn. Perhaps it's the honesty of canine behavior that many find threatening.

Good read on this is "Of Wolves and Men" by Barry Alston Lopez.

[Mythsaje]

42. I was aware

of the complexity of their interrelationships, but I would go so far as to suggest that these sorts of things are more common when the competition for food isn't so fierce. I believe they communicate and gain wisdom from their elders, as do we, but there are many primitive human societies that allowed their elders to abandon themselves, or even encouraged themselves to do so, to the mercy of the wilderness when they became too much of a burden on their tribe.

I also believe that wolves are probably far more harsh in their judgement with regards to their leaders than with the lesser pack members. A mistake by a single wolf can jeopardize a single hunt, perhaps, but mistakes by the leader can jeopardize pack survival on a whole deeper level.

My wife and I work in canine rescue and rehabilitation, specifically with the primitive Asian breeds--which are, genetically, the most similar to the wolves of any domesticated dog. Strong pack structure and absolute faith in their alphas (us) is paramount in keeping them in order and content with their life and their position in the pack.

[misanthrope]

48. When you say "more harsh...

...in their judgements of their leaders as opposed to lesser pack members," which leaders do you mean? I've read and heard that the alphas aren't always the "leaders" in every single situation, that leadership roles can be somewhat fluid depending on the task at hand. Pack members that are better at hunting certain types of game may take up "the lead" according to the prey.

Their modes of communication are also a big mystery. Though we know wolves are extraordinarily astute observers of posture and behavior, naturalists have also observed some tantalizing and inexplicable behaviors from these animals that would seem to indicate something deeper is going on there which we have no way of quantifying at present.

Also fascinating is the relationship wolves share with crows and ravens.

[Mythsaje]

50. Now

you're getting into one of my favorite topics--the intelligence of animals.

I've read something about interactions between crows, ravens, and wolves. I find that sort of behavior fascinating. And, spending so much time around dogs, I definitely recognize a huge vocabulary of body language, noise, and behaviors. Recent studies indicate that an intelligent dog might have a vocabulary of 2000 words--capable of understanding this much human speech, and there's definitely something uncanny about the insight shown by all the corvids, as well as parrots, kias, and other birds.

And, yes, I would assume that there is some fluidity in lupine behavior with regards to leadership roles...in some ways it's almost tribal, the way ancient Native American societies might have a chief, a shaman, and a war leader, and follow each according to the dictates of a situation or circumstance.

But one of the things I've observed in dealing with Shibas and their cousins (Akitas, Jindos, and other varieties of Spitzes) is that they require very strong leadership models in their alphas. A primitive breed dog is much more comfortable in a strong pack structure where their own place is certain. This seems to inhibit any struggle within the pack for dominance between the various dogs.

I think confidence in the alpha in question--confidence in his or her expertise in certain matters, is probably part of the reason they look to different wolves in different leadership situations.

It's an interesting topic and I can discuss it at length...as I said, I find the question of animal intelligence incredibly fascinating. It's been said by various anthropologists over the years that there are definite parallels between what they believe primitive man was like and the social structure of wild canids, particularly the wolves.

[Kazak]

10. Not humans, but taker culture...

An easy mistake to make. Humans lived in harmony with nature for literally millions (about 3 to be more precise) of years before taker culture came along. Please read both Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn, and The Chalice And The Blade, by Riane Eisler, for a more thorough explanation of these ideas. Both utterly essential books, IMHO...

[sojourner]

21. Thanks for the references...

I'll check them out. I do understand that culture has a great deal of influence on what we do, individually and collectively. But this aggression/violence thing is starting to really dumbfound me.

[The Magistrate]

63. Most Unlikely, Sir

Nothing in existence three million years ago could properly be called human. People began systematic exploitation as soon as they were able; the mass extinctions of large animals had mostly occured well before the period referenced in Ms. Eisler's work. that contains, to my view, an extraordinarily simplistic and romance-glazed view of the matter. There never was an Eden....

[Kazak]

69. Perhaps not humans as we know them now, but...

yes, certainly hominids DID exist 3 million years ago, and that's a conservative estimate.

Look here http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html for example.

And yes, the mass territory grab of humans is pretty new, relatively speaking; only about 10,000 years or so old, beginning with/around the agricultural revolution...

[Swede]

12. Most people are good people.

If they weren't,you'd be hearing gunfire right now. The "will to power" dredges up some of the worst humanity has to offer. That is why a democracy will usually be peaceful,but some snakes do get to the top.

[sojourner]

16. Your comment about "most" is well-taken, but

why is it that we still tend to support the concept of killing. Why do we participate in it by proxy? Isn't that what we do when we demand "justice"? Or hire an army?

[Pepperbelly]

15. the survival part is still to be decided. nt

[nolabels]

56. Them freaking bugs creep me out

been here longer than us and will probably still be here after we use up all of our time on this petri dish we call earth

Some Edible Species

As this site is about insects, we thought it would be nice to adorn it with a few. The six display drawers below were part of a traveling exhibit put together in 1991 for showing in middle and elementary schools in the Madison area. The title of the exhibit was “Insects as Food in Different Cultures.” To help get the kid’s attention, we loaded as many big, showy insects as possible (all edible in one life stage or another) into the exhibit cases. At a given school, the exhibit would be set up usually on a Monday; then, on about Thursday or Friday, I would show up with a slide show, followed by a question/answer period. Kids in those early age groups can get pretty excited about insects, so these were fun sessions. Later on, we may use the insects shown here to expand a little on the taxonomy and biology of the edible species.
(snip)
http://www.food-insects.com/edible%20species.htm

[sojourner]

19. Look at this list if you doubt the human capacity for blood-lust...

Some of the behaviors we perform: (I'm going to leave out the killing that we seem to do as a "byproduct" of living, such as environmental pressure causing habitat loss and subsequent extinction of plant and animal populations)

We kill for sport (for trophies often, but sometimes just for the "thrill")

We have hunted some species to extinction, others to the brink of extinction (and through action by more "enlightened" humans have managed to save quite a few)

In the business of food production we have moved away from a "humane" slaughter technique (at least sometimes we seem to care about HOW someone/something dies) to more "efficient" slaughter techniques -- much what the Nazis did with their extermination camps (only those were for slaughtering humans)

We regularly embark on these things we call "war" which are really just opportunities to kill other humans for a "just cause" which can be anything we want it to be:

- to expand our land-holdings and natural resources
- to exterminate humans deemed unfriendly to our beliefs/lifestyle
- to terrify other humans who might think about making "war" on us
- to convert other humans of a different (unfriendly) belief/lifestyle

We harbor in our midst (they arise from and dwell in our midst) those who become "murderers"
-- which means they kill other humans without the blessings of war

Some murderers do the deed for personal reasons, others called "hit men" do it for hire

We kill murderers using something called the "death penalty"

When we're not killing we like to maim people of different religious or political persuasions through beatings, chopping off of various appendages (fingers, hands, toes, feet, etc.)

When we're at war we like to hurt our enemies or those who seem a bit like our enemies - in ways too numerous to list here

We like to watch combative sports (and other entertainment) where two opponents face off and one of them either gets hurt/killed or gives the appearance of having been hurt/killed

We commit genocide

We watch passively as someone else commits genocide

[ConfuZed]

22. sojourner I suggest you go live in a cave with bears...

We'll see who's the ruthless killer :)

[sojourner]

24. Lots of animals and plants that I don't think I'd be too compatible with..

but I'd be a hell of a lot more comfortable with bears running things than humans.

For one thing, looks to me like bears mostly "live and let live" long as you don't fool around with their territory or their offspring. Have yet to read or hear of a bear war or bear genocide. Nor of bear pollution.........

[ConfuZed]

26. Hmmm?

"For one thing, looks to me like bears mostly "live and let live" long as you don't fool around with their territory or their offspring."


Gee seems like we have something in common with bears but after millions of years they really havent advanced unlike us and if you invade their space like you said they will kill you without thinking about it unlike us humans who will drug and send them back to their habitat, rather you like it or not all animals will kill just like humans it all part of nature you can't get around it.

[Kazak]

27. The important difference between bears and takers...

If you invade a bear's territory, it will kill you. If you invade a taker's territory, it will (attempt to) wipe out your species.

[Kazak]

29. Furthermore,...

takers will invade your territory and wipe you out. Bears will not behave in this manner.

(That's how they got their name.)

[Kraklen]

76. Most captured bears are euthanized.

They corner them, and dart them, and tell the news guy that they're returning the bears to the wild. Far more often then not the bears are euthanized. So you're point's moot; but given how most bears have been hunted to near extinction it was moot anyways.

[Kazak]

80. If I follow your thinking correctly...

it sounds to me like my point has been validated. :shrug:

[sojourner]

31. advanced? destroying the planet and one another........wow, how advanced!

[Karenina]

25. Bears???

[sojourner]

33. I didn't mean to demean bears. I actually have lived in places

that bears inhabit, like mountains of Montana and California's Sierra Nevada. Haven't seen let alone been threatened by one.

Have read about people who have been studying bears for years. Certain bears are more dangerous (but I still don't think they'd invent napalm, even if they could).

My Montana rancher Dad always taught me that if a black bear charged me I should make a big noise, and rush forward and whack him/her on the tip of the nose with my fishing pole - because black bears are not generally prone to stick around for a fight.

[AlienGirl]

30. Chimps are the same way

And groups of dolphins (usually young males) will attack and rape unwilling female dolphins; dolphins will also sometimes kill en masse their porpoise cousins, for no reason that humans have figured out yet.

It seems to be pretty common that intelligent creatures commit atrocities.

Tucker

[NuttyFluffers]

70. ants farm, animal husbandry, war, and enslave...

as well as forced marches, and full scale annihilation of all small life in one particular hunting raid.

dolphins and chimpanzees rape.

chimpanzees have brutal politics.

ermines in the wild have been known to kill for the fun... and not stop for a frightful long time.

fungi colonies have been known to draw nutrients from one clump of tree hosts to transport to another whole area of forest to help defend trees under parasitic assault.

species of from in chile, in a small little valley towards the southern tip, kills *everything* smaller than it, even if it isn't hungry. full scale genocide of everything smaller than itself. now the only reliable source of food for it for several months is... itself. cannibalism is
its main way of survival, and its birthing cycles have it tone down the species for a while, let the valley fill up a bit again, and then the tadpoles emerge and wholesale slaughter begins again.

the natural world is a lot more violent -- and friendly -- than we give it credit for. what makes humans all so different, except in terms of scale because of our tools?

is it intent? because we can consciously choose evil? what makes you so sure animals can't do the same? ;) i know some cats that are downright evil, and have seen my doggie do very mischievous things, knowing he'd get in trouble, but wanted to anyway. same with parrots, hamsters, and other pets i've had. you'd have to watch animals a long time to verifiably say there's no intent, only instinct, involved. at least those that had continual contact with us have either picked up some of our "thinking" or we are in proximity enough to recognize it from day to day behavior.

[ismnotwasm]

36. I thought it had something to do with having opposable thumbs

And being natures physical weaklings, developing survival methods that included using physical numbers and tools against bigger and stronger animals, living together for protection-- stuff like that.

[sojourner]

37. well, that's what I thought too....

but recently I'm observing this craving for blood that appears to have driven our "advancement"...thus my post.

Before this I guess I overlooked how very bloody we as humans really are.

[ismnotwasm]

41. I agree we seem to get on a fucked-up social evolutionalry path

I personally think our social/emotional/cultural maturation is far behind our technical advancement. I also think we are are world out of balance, when huge segments of the population,--say women, are considered weaker, less smart, too seductive, whatever. Bringing that balance to reality is what being progessive is all about, at least to me. A hell of a fight. But being a human is the only thing I know. Learning to be a better human being is something I strive for.

[Jose Diablo]

71. Well, don't look to closely at truth

You say:

"Before this I guess I overlooked how very bloody we as humans really are."

The deal is this, if you see too much, shall we say much much more than others, then you lose the illusion that could be called shared vision. And without the 'truth' of a 'shared vision', people begin to think of you as insane, someone 'gone over the edge', a 'can short'.

It is better to remain with the pack rather than being a lone wolf howling in some remote lonely high pass.

In all honesty, to really 'see', is to lose ourself. Be careful trying to seek 'truth', you just may find it.

Edit:The again, to really 'see' is a spiritual cleansing. Maybe it's better to really 'see'.

[sojourner]

73. no worries...no illusions ...(well, okay, just a few)

I know what you mean, though.

Interesting switch to my vision this is...prior to this I really was "honed in" on all the positive attributes of humans - of all earth's inhabitants - of the universe, in fact!

I have considered things from many perspectives, and thought I had accepted a more "non-judgemental" vision of the universe. But like a veil lifting I just suddenly "saw" this terrible thing about me/us/them. And I don't really like what I see.

It makes it hard for me to see hope for our kind.

[Jose Diablo]

75. This may help

A long time ago I heard this and it kind of sticks in my mind.

There will be peace in the world,
When there is peace between the nations.
There will peace between the nations,
When there is peace within the nation.
There will be peace within the nation,
When there is peace between the people.
There will be peace between the people,
When each person is at peace within themselves.

I don't know who penned it first, not me thats for sure.

The solution is not 'out there' someplace, when enough people have had enough, the killing will stop.

It is not that people have to do these things, there is always a choice. It is not destiny, but freewill. We don't act on instincts like animals, but make a decision to do these things.

Never give-up hope.

[Redstone]

38. So if you're ashamed to be a human,

what action are you going to take to expiate your guilt?

Become a different species? Commit suicide?

Sorry, but I'm not buying your argument. You say "They this" and "they that," but guess what:

You are them.

They are you.

Get used to it.

Redstone

[sojourner]

43. ummmmmmmmmmm....got me there. sucks.

I have tried for years to make a difference (small difference made possible by one individual going against the tide). Educate others. Have now moved to making financial contributions to causes that I think can make a difference - writing letters to every representative and senator and even (L)MSM journos.

But I get the sinking feeling that inside me, inside all of us, is this terrible legacy of ruthless killing that will go on and on until it brings to an end every living thing. And that's sad, because I think living on this planet is an incredible journey.

(Also, for the sake of discussion I deliberately chose not to go into all the cultural and economic factors that may contribute to the choice to kill, but it COULD be -- dare one hope -- that we can learn to "rise above" the pattern? Maybe develop real PEACE technologies?)

[cprise]

62. The trend in killing each other peaked decades ago

...I believe more than 6 decades ago.

Even with the power we have at our disposal today, Bush can only get away with a fraction of the killing that the US caused in SE Asia more than a generation ago. Now there is greater, more consistent resistence to war even before the government starts drafting people.

We are constantly using new technology to reach out to each other. Cliche but true.

We have unambigious universal languages: math and science. They are leading us to a consensus that the trend in killing other species must also subside.


You have awoken inside a twisted empire. The view from here is terrible. So what can one do? I turn off the TV and read lots of foreign news.

[alarimer]

40. I agree

I despise the human race. I wish for a giant asteroid every day. The planet would have been better off if we had never happened.

[sojourner]

44. well....I didn't really say I "despise" them/us --

I just wish we could collectively look at ourselves in the mirror and say "Jeebus! Look at what I've become! I'm going to have to start making some serious changes!"

Fantasy, maybe. Probably, even. But I do kinda hope.........

[alarimer]

49. Well remember the Gaia hypothesis?

That the Earth acts as a single orgnanism? I am not sure how true it is but it is at least a good analogy. If it is true then humans are the parasites, tapeworms if you will, of the organism that is Earth. That is how I feel about humans as a species. Sure some of them individually are okay but as a whole, pretty much a lost cause.

[sojourner]

51. Yep...

and I feel pretty much the same, except I still hope that some of us can "make friends" with our host...Mother Earth, and find a way to co-exist.

Otherwise, guess I (and all of us) will become bits of recycled energy seeking new journeys and adventures..........

[AX10]

46. It's much more complex than that.

Humans have both killed and saved. It's a paradox alright. But our abilities give us the chance to do both "good" and "evil".

[Lone_Wolf]

47. Here's a great quote from Noam Chomsky's Hegemony or Survival

"A few years ago, one of the great figures of contemporary biology, Ernst Mayr, published some reflections on the likelihood of success in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. He considered the prospects very low. His reasoning had to do with the adaptive value of what we call "higher intelligence," meaning the particular human form of intellectual organization. Mayr estimated the number of species since the origin of life at about fifty billion, only one of which "achieved the kind of intelligence needed to establish a civilization." It did so very recently, perhaps 100,000 years ago. It is generally assumed that only one small breeding group survived, of which we are all descendants.

Mayr speculated that the human form of intellectual organization may not be favored by selection. The history of life on Earth, he wrote, refutes the claim that "it is better to be smart than to be stupid," at least judging by biological success: beetles and bacteria, for example, are vastly more successful than humans in terms of survival. He also made the rather somber observation that "the average life expectancy of a species is about 100,000 years."

We are entering a period of human history that may provide an answer to the question of whether it is better to be smart than stupid. The most hopeful prospect is that the question will not be answered: if it receives a definite answer, that answer can only be that humans were a kind of "biological error," using their allotted 100,000 years to destroy themselves and, in the process, much else."

[sojourner]

52. Thanks for sharing that...Mayr's assessment may be spot on.

But I still hope against hope that we CAN change...

Actually I vascillate between that irrational hope and the chagrin I feel at finding myself associated with the human species. I am not convinced that what some here consider "depravity" among animals is anywhere close to what we humans are capable of, psychologically speaking.

[alfredo]

54. We are the last of the Homo Genus. All others have gone

extinct. Are we an evolutionary dead end?

[MojoXN]

55. As I remarked on another thread...

Not directed at you, but, "WELL DUH!"

Our species is deeply flawed, but I love it anyway. We think. We EXIST. You shouldn't be ashamed to be human. You should be ashamed to live in a world where the vast majority of people have no resepect for life or the land on which we live.

MojoXN

EDIT: typos

[sojourner]

58. UMMM....

's okay to point out that I'm stating the obvious (as in "DUH!"). But, shame for being human vs shame for living in this world? I'm confused.

I think that the lack of respect for life to which you refer is exactly what I pointed to...albeit from a slightly different perspective.

(Make no mistake - although I've focused here on this one trait -killing - I realize that when the considerable brainpower of humans is focused on something more altruistic, like saving lives, the outcome can be truly astonishing.)

But continuing with my thesis: The ruthlessness and callousness that appears to be inherent in humans seemingly allows them not only to carry out the unthinkable, but to stand by while the unthinkable takes place. And there seems to be no distinction between land, vegetation, animal or humans. Equal disregard and disdain for each seems to be a mark of "progress" for the human.

And whether it's for being human or for having to live in this world -- either way, having this awareness is no light burden; I don't think I'm the only one feeling this lonely sort of "shame".

[MojoXN]

60. I admit...

That my original post was logically inconsistent. I firmly believe that human beings are not inherently evil. There are human societies that know virtually no hostility, either toward each other, or other living things. They are quite rare, but they exist. Their existence refutes the notion that people are inherently destructive.

Our societies are destructive because they are deficient in empathy. We don't truly teach our children that when you hurt someone else, it hurts you just as deeply, nor do we try to make them understand that when you step on an insect, you are only stepping on yourself.

No, instead, modern humans teach their childern that we are all disjoint, and that our species is superior to all others. It's been said before, it's quite cliched, but education is the key. We as a species won't change until we ALL fully comprehend our role in the life of this planet.

A skewed perspective, but one that I totally ascribe to, nonetheless...

MojoXN

[Reptilian]

57. Humans are a virus. The reptilians know this. Humans are a virus that

consumes resources and gives nothing back that is why are targeted for extermination. We consume resources and destroy the earth.

[cprise]

59. If you cling to > misanthropy

...no matter how much insight you wrap it in... then you are no better than the Religious Right.

Our common cause here is based on Enlightenment humanism at its very roots: It is the thread that runs through every forum, topic and gathering. At some level, we must consider each other deserving and worthwhile for no other reason than our shared humanity and because we are adaptable enough to improve.

That is called faith. It may not be religious and absolute, and faith in your fellow human beings may even be more difficult than belief in an omnipotent and invisible god. But we realy have no choice: If not enough people believe in their own potential on-the-whole to do good (and by extension recognize the innate worthiness of their neighbors), then the result will be destruction.

This is what nuturing societies run on. It's why they turn away from racism and the death penalty, why they insist on universal education and healthcare, why they band together to restrict pollution. People build boats also to help each other in ways that are completely beyond other species. That is a power and a choice that I feel lucky to possess.

Enagage your imagination with the good that is possible, and don't let accusations like "utopian" or the corporate "news" discourage it.

[sojourner]

61. I appreciate your viewpoint, but have to disagree

that having an awareness of how destructive humans can be/have been and promise to be makes me a misanthrope. I care deeply for other humans, for the earth herself and all her inhabitants. I just have a deep sorrow for the fact that we humans have not risen above the destructive impulse. Reflecting on that has led to the statement that heads this thread.

I hope that we can improve, as a collective. But I think we must perhaps come to that moment of awareness wherein we realize the impact of our actions and maybe even take a moment to regret them, before we can begin to change our ways.

[MojoXN]

64. cprice, your avatar gives weight to your words...

And your words give you credence.

Listen to cprise! He or she has much knowledge to impart, I'm certain.

MojoXN

[sojourner]

65. well, cprise did strike me as very wise in post #62, so

I will take your poetic tribute as good advice.

[NuttyFluffers]

67. but also because of our cooperation, compasion, and charity.

this is the other half of the argument always left out. people always forget the power of cooperation, compassion, charity, and other virtues.

we often slip into the fallacy of social darwinist thinking in our darker moods, but we must remember it is all the good that brought us here too. without it many people with disabilities, slight or strong, wouldn't be around, and they wouldn't have had a chance to give their strength to our species. in fact our compassion for the helpless, weak, and forgotten helped us to gain animal and plant friends to aid us in our survival. that and society wouldn't have been made at all if it wasn't for the realization that these forces are incredibly powerful and beneficial. strength through numbers. strength through diversity. strength through maintenance.

it's just a dark mood. go through it, but remember it too shall pass. there's a lot of good in our species, yet. it just requires strength in numbers -- cooperation -- for goodness to shine through the butchery left by selfishness.

[sojourner]

72. your words are like a balm........thanks!

[VOX]

74. For centuries, the Pacific Northwest tribes made war on one another...

The tribes (Chinook, Haida, Nootka, Tlingit) had plenty of land, ample fish and game, and a vast supply of cedar wood to build boats and dwellings -- yet they still went after one another now and then.

As ugly and abhorrent as it is, is there something elemental in humans that simply draws them to deadly conflict? :shrug:

The sad thing is, humans have the capacity to *think* themselves beyond war, but they never choose this option for any extended length of time.

[sojourner]

79. I'm starting to question that capacity...which I have accepted until now.

Watch the RWers and see them "think" their way beyond war. Beyond anything for that matter. After 9/11 there was such a cry for blood that the people would have gone to war with Heaven if they had been given any rationale for doing so. And now that they have their juices flowing some of them are looking at mopping up the floor with the "evul libruls" -----

[shockra]

77. One of my favorite books...

Is The Biology of Transcendence by Joseph Chilton Pearce. He talks about the difference between intellect and intelligence. Intelligence being more holistic, includes the heart, not just the head. A description:

The Dialogue Between Heart and Brain

Over many years of research under grants from the National Institutes of Health, John and Beatrice Lacey traced the neurological connections between the brain and the heart. Their discovery of these connections and the ongoing heart-brain dialogue was largely ignored by academic science Today the new field of neurocardiology has verified and validated the Laceys' work, which means that in time acceptance will follow.

The heart certainly has an intelligence, though this calls for a new definition of the word to differentiate it from cerebral intellect. The heart's intelligence is not verbal or linear or digital, as is the intellect in our head, but rather is a holistic capability that responds in the interest of well-being and continuity, sending to the brain's emotional system an intuitive prompt for appropriate behavior. Intellect, however, can function independently from the heart -- that is, without intelligence -- and can take over the circuitry and block our heart's more subtle signals.

A Fun Fact:

All living forms produce an electrical field because in some sense everything has an electromagnetic element or basis, but a heart cell's electrical output is exceptional. That congregation within us, billions of little generators working in unison, produces two and a half watts of electrical energy with each heartbeat at an amplitude forty to sixty times greater than that of brain waves-- enough to light a small electric bulb. This energy forms an electromagnetic *field* that radiates out some twelve to fifteen feet beyond our body itself.

He also talks about the differences between the R-Complex (survival-oriented) and the forebrain, which has had the highest human virtues like love, compassion, empathy and understanding attributed to it.

I also just noticed there's a rave review from Thom Hartmann on the back cover. :D

[sojourner]

78. Thanks! I'll check that out.........n/t