My neocon step-mother just left after saying "WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF IRAQ"

[Coexist]

I am dumbstruck. This is a woman who would not let my kids watch Disney movies in her home because "it is the devil's work for animals to talk".

She and I had a civil 15 minute conversation on Iraq. She, of course, blames Clinton for dismantling the military - that is why we cannot win (sigh). But she did admit that Rumsfeld's "streamlining" and closing bases to save $40 billion over 20 years when we have spent $300 billion in Iraq is stupid. She is afraid of a draft.

Now, you have to understand, we NEVER talk politics - we agreed to disagree and keep family events pleasant years ago. My Dad is a Dem and bickers with her all the time about politics (she was not right-wing when they got married - she got saved shortly after). My son was dumbstruck - he actually said, "Wow, I can't believe you two agree on something like that." She said that an interview with McCain today was the last straw for her.

Holy cow. She is (or I should say WAS) an amazingly staunch Bush supporter. I am stunned. Now I TRULY believe the tide is turning.

[Maat]

1. Hell has frozen over!

You've gotten through!

[ovidsen]

7. And this is the tip of the iceberg.

At least I hope it is.

I hope this is a sign that there's a groundswell of people like FLDem5's step-mom who are beginning to realize that they've been taken for suckers by * and his cronies.

It's not easy to admit that you are wrong and that you've been duped. But I imagine that once folks who so ardently supported the Iraq-a-lamma-ding-dong mess realize they've been lied to by a cabal of amoral hypocrites, they'll HATE * as much as they once adored him. Our biggest challenge then will be resisting the temptation to say "I told you so".

[Coexist]

9. She wouldn't say this if all the ladies in her Church group weren't

I am serious - that was not a sarcastic statement. They stick to their views like glue together.

That is why I am so jazzed about it. I was very nice - because I knew it was hard for her to say that to me. I let her bash Clinton. She gave a little, I gave a little.

It was nice!

[ovidsen]

19. That's even better!

It's not just she who's saying this. It's other women in her Church!:woohoo:

I applaud you for being nice to her. I'd find it hard not to gloat, and I'm glad you aren't.

[FreedomAngel82]

24. I'd say!

Wow! I'm simply amazed. Now all you gotta do is get her and others you know to vote next year and for democrats. That's the only way we're ever going to get anything going.

[bumblebee1]

22. Did you look up into the sky?

Were there flying pigs?

[wtmusic]

2. She'll have to tear up her Neocon membership card

for the neos plan on staying there indefinitely

[Cha]

3. She should really "get saved" and

see the light!

[LittleClarkie]

4. That's one thing that never makes sense to me

How does becoming a born-again Christian make every last damn thing the Republicans do golden. Why the HELL do I hear Christian radio station commentators telling me that Bush is doing just fine in Iraq. What about being a born-again Christian makes you an expert on foreign policy. It just sounds like they're propping up their guy regardless, and that's pathetic.

[Coexist]

5. her church was very conservative and believed that Bush was one of them

I am serious. She believed that a man who fell to his knees in the Oval Office could not do bad things, knowingly.

[LittleClarkie]

6. It's all so black and white

Either all right or all wrong.

Okay, so he's a good man (gag) and would not do anything wrong knowingly (gag, gag). So it should still be possible to say that this good man is doing the best that he can, but some of his policies are missing the mark. You can be a good, but incompetent man. Becoming born-again doesn't turn a shmuck into Superman.

That's what bugs me.

[FreedomAngel82]

26. Me too

When you're baptized in Christ it doesn't mean you can just do whatever you want. You're still held accountable for your actions (some call it karma) appropriatley. And as LittleClarkie said it doesn't mean he's pure or anything. Hitler openingly in public was a Christian and look where that got Germany. So you should never blindly follow someone. Even the Bible tells us that.

[Gay Green]

12. For all we know, he could've fallen to his knees in the Oval Office...

...to give Kkkarl and JimmyJeff some REAL satisfaction.

(Sorry, I just had to say that!):evilgrin:

But I do know that when A$$croft was in the room, they carried on like a pair of utterly hypocritical Pharisees who prayed just for show!

[DemonFighterLives]

33. Let's not forget

dubby has been funneling money to the Churches through the faith based initiative or some method. My brother in law said that his Church got a lot of money from Bushco. This is why the Churches love h*m.
Called payola to normal people.

[FreedomAngel82]

25. Who knows

I don't get it. I'm Christian and can see through these phoney liars. I guess these people must not read their Bibles quite as much. At my church now in the college class we're going through the book of Proverbs. Now it is an old testament book but it's one of my favorites. The book is from King Solomon who passed on wisdom (he's supposivley the wisest earth king ever cause God said he could have one thing and what he wanted was wisdom to help his people and make wise decisions, which shows his character to me and he cared about his people) to his children and it got put in the Bible. The book talks about you shouldn't be gulliable and believe everything just because someone who is like you says so. You should check everything out so you're not a fool etc. So I don't get it either.

[Ikonoklast]

8. ".......she is afraid of a draft."

Good, I am glad that she is scared. This is what these people fear the most; it is a different story when strangers' children are dying, but when one of their own may be put in harms' way, suddenly Bush is an asshole. If all the so-called "Christians" really listened to the words of Jesus instead of insane sociopaths that call themselves Reverend this or Doctor that, they would all call for an end to this disaster TODAY.

[Coexist]

10. She has several grandchildren

she even made me promise to send the opt-out link to her from Working Assets to her for her other kids. It was surreal.

[Ikonoklast]

15. I am not surprised

I have three children, all of draft age. I am currently working with my father, who has dual citizenship, towards getting them qualified for passports to get them out of the country if this would ever happen. He is retired now, but said that he would leave with all his grandchildren until this insanity stopped.
People scoff, but don't underestimate how psychotic these murderers are. They are trying to bring about Armageddon so they can float to heaven. The blood of my children would be nothing if they could attain their goals.

[Postman]

11. Clinton didn't dismantle the military. Another rightwing talking point lie

I was in the military.

Clinton won in Yugoslavia with the military he had "dismantled"

Actually, the invasion phase of Iraq was a success in a way. The Iraqi military was defeated.

The occupation, for which they had no plan for, is a different story. THAT is Bush's fault, not Clinton's.

Anyway, how much money does the Pentagon need for Christs sake?

300 Billion? 400 Billion? 500 Billion?

That's not a "defense budget" its an "empire" budget.

[Coexist]

14. But the point she made was that Clinton cut defense spending

and the numbers of our troops - do you have any info on that? I would like to be able to gently disagree with her about this. Today was not the day - but another day, maybe!!!!

[Postman]

17. What does cutting defense spending have to do with Iraq now?

on 9/11 it wouldn't have mattered the number of "troops".

Iraq was a war of choice not necessity.

If Bush didn't have enough troops to do the Job, why did he start it? How is it Clinton's fault that Bush started a war and didn't do the proper planning to finish it?

It seems to me that this is an admission on your mothers part that Bush f**ked up the occupation.

He certainly didn't have enough troops to finish the job, but you'll never hear the neo-cons admit to that.

They had their stupid plan for Iraq that was totally disconnected from reality.

They poo-pood the military experts who warned them before the invasion that they needed thousands more troops.

That's not Clinton's fault, that is Bush's fault.

As far as cutting the defense budget, what happened to the "peace dividend"? The benefit of the collapse of the Soviet Threat. It would be logical to down-size the military when your reason for being is no longer a threat.

[Coexist]

20. you are right - thanks for the "talking points"

Republicans are always saying that Clinton "gutted" the military.
(edited for dumb mistake - attributing R points to the wrong person!)

[Tactical Progressive]

21. Clinton's defense spending cuts

Bush Sr had planned and already begun a rather large, long-term military build-DOWN. Which was the appropriate direction after the Cold War cooled with the Soviet Union returning to Russia. Clinton followed Bush's scheduled build-down, so in that sense you could technically say he cut defense spending.

Except that he backed off and left more bases open, more weapons programs funded, and he increased military pay. Inotherwords, what he really did was to soften the Bush build-down.

To say that 'Clinton cut defense spending' out of context like that is using a half-truth to tell a complete lie. Tell her that you're tired of defending the truth against the unending Republican lies that people have swallowed.


The other thing Clinton did was to accelerate the computerization of the military into a more high-tech force. Clinton's military is the only part of the Iraq war, from justification to planning to execution to aftermath, that worked.

Clinton did right by the military. Republicans did wrong by America with their lies about Clinton, same as always.

[Coexist]

29. thanks for that, too

DUers are a very knowledgable bunch!

[LynnTheDem]

28. She's very wrong about that; REPUBS are the ones for cutting defense.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3249504

[noahmijo]

16. Yea I was gonna say the same thing (sorta)

Jeez for one thing Clinton was the one who made the military into a technological force starting with Network Centric Warfare.


That's the quiz for the day ask any neo-con who thinks war is like a videogame and truly believe the republicans are the ones with balls ect to describe "Network Centric Warfare"

[Coexist]

30. ashamed to say I don't know what this is either

but Google is my friend!!!

[noahmijo]

35. No shame for you cause I don't see you going around and

running your mouth off talking with glee about how Bush's war is so great and how the Clintons killed the military.

In simple words it lead to the development of The Predator (the unmanned plane that could spy and fire missles and strike targets without ever putting any pilots in harm's way) among a whole slew of other things.

[FreedomAngel82]

27. And what I wonder with all the money

is if it's really going to the Iraqi people or their corporations pockets (as in Halliburton and other allies in the corporate world). Remember earlier in the year they "lost" all that money in Iraq and then a couple months later asked for some more and they still don't have proper armor for themselves or vehicles. So where is all this money going?

[Poiuyt]

13. War has a way of turning mothers into Democrats

My mother was very Republican until the My Lai massacre. She didn't like how the Viet Nam war was turning regular people into animals. It took a few years, but she eventually became a full fledged Democrat.

[Redstone]

18. It's happening. You're not imagining it.

I think a lot of us have had the kind of moment you describe lately. I know I have.

There is hope for America yet.

Redstone

[FreedomAngel82]

23. Amazing

Did she say why McCain did it for her? Looks like he's doing more harm then good.

[Coexist]

31. The interview on Meet the Press

I didn't see it - but he must have been criticizing our Iraq policy.

[kittenpants]

32. as much as I love all these conversion stories lately on DU,

I'm so PISSED at these fuckheads for not realizing this BEFORE November 2 of last year. I don't mean to rant in your thread FLDem & I'm sincerely happy you were able to connect w/ your stepmom. It just makes me mad that no one would believe us before the election & now they're spouting it like they invented it.

[Coexist]

34. I know - it irks me that everything Kerry said in the debates has

turned out to be true. Everything that Bush mocked him for - the cost of the war in particular. "Got some wood he-he-he" asshole.

[Zhade]

36. Yeah, my ex-wife stunned me by saying "they all need to be home".

Of course, this is AFTER she starts dating a guy in the Navy, so it's personal now. Before? Couldn't care less about dead Iraqis.

Sigh.