aagh! My grandpa blames the Iraq war on The Jews. help me!

[freeplessinseattle]

I've known for as long as I can remember that's he's anti-semitic, racist, homphobic, sexist, you name it, but lately it's just getting more difficult. I know I should brush it off, after all he grew up in Germany and fought in WWII, but we have been actually finding common ground with our disgust at the war. I thought maybe he was coming around, but I guess this war is the fault of The Jews, in his mind. and of course according to him the MSM is all Jewish owned, and they all got to that level unethically and thru all their Jewish friends. I tried to reason with him, told him about grandaddy Prescott and Mussolini, he didn't know that, and seemed surprised, but then said that Prescott was just financing Mussolini bc it was very profitable, so of course I tried calmly to explain to him that being unethical in the name of profit isn't justification, it's like justifying "The Jews" involvement in the Iraq war bc they're motivated by money. so he had to think about that. I also pointed out that if The Jews goal was to spread their Jewishness, then why are there mainly Christian missionaries in Iraq?

well, I doubt I can change his mind, he's been brainwashed since his youth (he was in Hitler Youth, btw, but claims it "like the Boy Scouts") and said there was no Nazi type teachings, but he seems to see being anti-semitic as normal, so who knows.

Thanks for listening to me! I love my Opa but it's good to be back home!

[jojo54]

1. Wow..

WW2 was a long time ago and he needs to just "get over it"!!!!

But ya know, they're set in their ways and it's hard to change them.

[Art_from_Ark]

2. So, your grandfather was a member of the Hitler Youth, er "Boy Scouts",

just like the new Pope? Interesting.

[LittleClarkie]

13. Way, WAY out of line

You don't know enough about this person's grandpa to make that kind of comment.

What kind of comment was that. Would you say it to this person's face? Or is it just something you feel comforable saying while you hide behind your keyboard?

[LisaL]

34. What are you talking about? What out of line? That person himself admitted

that his grandpa was in Hitler's youth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Well well as a daughter of the holocaust

we share an experience on both sides of the divide.

As to the media, show him who OWNS the media, such as CBS and GE.. or ABC and Disney... are there any Jews in management? Yes, but they don't own it.

you did a good deed by shownig him about Prescott, remind him Karl Rove's father was in teh SS.

It will be a tad more difficult since some of the folks pushign this insanity are Jews themselves (Perle, Wolfowitz) so he may use those as prima fasciae evidence...

It may just be a case where you just need to let go... your opa is an old man, I am guessing in his 70s or 80s... just make sure he does not pollute your thinking... oh and if this gets raelly annoying do point out the end rexult of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Used by the Hitler Youth as well)... the Concentration Camps...

Oh and challnge him NOT to remain silent

[pnorman]

24. "Karl Rove's father was in the SS"

That was brand new to me. If true, it would still NOT be conclusive, but it would be a handy factoid to use against the sort of people who routinely use such stuf to vilify their opponents. Here's what I was able to Google:

>
>
Karl Rove is the grandson of Karl Heinz Roverer, the Gauleiter of Oldenburg. Roverer was Reich-Stat halter or Nazi State Party chairman for the region of Germany that the Rove or Roverer family is from. Heir Roverer was also the senior engineer in the Roverer Sud-Deutche Ingenieurburo A. G. Engineering -- the firm built the Birkenau death camp.
>
>
http://www.unknownnews.org/050118a-dn.html

There's no mention of it in Snopes, so I tend to think it's true. As I said, it's not a valid argument, but it's certainly useful to toss at a Freeper.

pnorman

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. The people who were given the contracts to build these camps

were at the very least honorary members, if not outright members... it is kind, bad comparison at multiple levels (before somebody screams) to hallubrton and the senior leadership of halliburton, members of the GOP.

To be far more accurate with the record Karl Rove's father was a member of the inner sanctum of the party, hence why he got those lovely contracts. He was still a Nazi... as you just found out.

Regardless he was not what I would call a man with clean hands.

[LittleClarkie]

4. Could you redirect?

I don't think it's Israel. They're watching out for their self-interest, just the same as all the other countries.

It's when people in our government put Israel's interests over others, including our own.

There are those in the governement who think that making a democratic Middle East is the best way to make Israel safe. Some of those folks are indeed Jewish. But the problem isn't them being Jewish. It's that they think that they can take untried theories about the world, not listen to anyone else, and make their theories work even when they aren't working. I wouldn't say the neocons are a Jewish phenomenon. But the intelligencia in that group is where these theories are coming from. It is their arrogance that the ends justify the means, that they can conduct war on the cheap, have war upon war upon war, their nearly undemocratic attitude that what other people say and want don't matter, that is the problem.

Because their policies are good for Israel, some Jews find them appealing, and some of the neocons are Jews. But it is not a Jewish org.

Does that makes sense? Would he buy it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. just one correctoon

NeoCons are not a jewish phenomena, even if there is quite a percentage in there... it is a phenomena of the RIGHT WING, ULTRACONSERVATIVE ULTRANATIONALIST thinking... in some ways it shares elements with National Socialism... which is scary

[LittleClarkie]

8. I've heard the neocons described

as the worst parts of both the old left of the seventies and of the right.

Funny that they have socialistic aspects, as they are fond of branding everyone socialist.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Yes, yes they are

just look at Deshowitz... he was a 60s leftie and oh boy these days, oh my

[LittleClarkie]

14. Here's a question. Buchanan

is often called anti-semetic. Is he called that because he rails against the neocons? Or has he made other comments that make him actually anti-semetic like our friends grandpa?

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Buchannan's history of antisemism

goes back clsoe to thirty years. He does not like Jews on principle because he does believe much of this tripe... why at times it is amaziong to find one self agreeing with Buchannan

[freeplessinseattle]

18. I tried to point out that most Jews are Dems, his answer..

they're Liberal Communists! that's when I knew there was no reasoning with him, and even if I did change his mind it wouldn't change anything in the bigger scheme of things, but I can't just sit there and listen silently, either say nothing or agree, my mom always says, but I feel like a traitor, why can't I just say, hey that's what I think. I know he won't respect my opinion no matter what, he says "oh, you are still young, just wait and see what happens ".

oh well, just had to vent, it is just so disheartening "in this day and age" that my own grandfather is strongly anti-semitic, I've heard about people who don't believe the holacaust really happened, and that just is hard to comprehend, how could they doubt it? I am afraid to know what my Opa thinks about the Holacaust. maybe that's something I don't need to know so I can sleep at night.

thanks all!

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Then don't ask your grandfather

You may need to "divorce" him in the sense you don't care what he thinks about you, nor will respect your opinion

My dad has had a heck of a time realizing that these boys are fascists... so to a point we are in the same boat.

:-)

[freeplessinseattle]

21. Thank you:) I appreciate the support

I will just try to change the subject or if he really wants to talk about it I'll try to pretend I'm just giving a presentation in class and that he's a fellow "student" playing a role of "devil's advocate" in the name of education:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Yuo welcome

what would drive your opa nuts is that you and I are talking even if this is only on a message board, so keep that away from him...

;-)

Now keep the good fight, we have way too many bastards to bring down

[hemp_not_war]

29. um

is your dad Zbigniew Brzezinski by any chance?

[Vladimir]

30. I think you are quite right

it makes no sense to talk about them as a 'jewish phenomenon'. Firstly because it equates Zionism with jewishness, which is manifestly absurd and anti-semitic. Also, to the extent that they are Zionists, their Zionism is a function of their wider imperialism and colonialism, not the other way around.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. No you don't for the same reason you don't want any of our

boys having a cranial enema, it will cause the martyr phenomena

[LSdemocrat]

7. The prejudices of adults are pretty hard to break

Unless he ends up with a very close friend who's Jewish your grandfather's prejudice probably won't change.

[Selatius]

10. Does he just blame Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, et al?

Just cause they have Jewish last names doesn't mean all Jews are in on the whole Neocon game.

[expatriot]

12. I've heard a few old geezers blame it on "the Jews"

The problem with this is they take a logical argument: that perhaps one of the reasons for the war, or at least a very "happy" bi-product from, it, is that it took out a potential leader of another pan-Arab anti-Israel coalition, they take this logical argument and say it's because of the Jews. Of course we say all the time that we can be critical of Israeli policies and not be anti-semitic... but then there are people who blur the two and this reinforces the stigma of those of us who are critical of Israeli policies as being anti-semitic. We need to really, really explain the difference between anti-zionism and anti-semeticism not only to people who call Israeli policy critics anti-semite but also to the anti-semitic critics of Israel.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Ok and if yuo really want to slice the pie even further

you need to distinguish between left wing zionism and rignt wing zionist, which is the Likudniks. The LW are not racists... and namy of them realize that 1967 may be the seed of the destrcution of the State of Israel

Moreover, there is another element in Israeli politics, the Holocaust still plays an amazing role... it is the extra million in Israeli Politics

For the record I am quite the critic of CURRENT Israeli Policies... but I have gottent ot hte point that you know what? That crisis is theirs to solve so we truly should have no vote on it... not even a sentimental one

[freeplessinseattle]

20. exactly, that's what I was trying to articulate to him

but didn't do well, and I think he just has it in his head that Jews are Bad, and I tried to point out that it's not anywhere near as bad to go to war to defend a country as it is to go to war for greed, like the "non-Jew" neo-cons did.

aah, he's just part of the "old country" set in his ways, I love him anyway. actually, the fact that my family is so RW helps me to get too angry at rethugs. It's just so sad. *sigh*

[MojoXN]

15. You are of Serbian/Eastern European extraction, yes?

My best friend always called his grandparents Oma and Opa. I would assume that you share this characteristic, do you not?

I digress. He is wrong to blame the war in Iraq on "Jews", but it would be perfectly fair to say that Jewish Neoconservatives are largely responsible for the current debacle in Iraq. I would suggest delicately pointing out to your Grandfather that most Jews (at least the Jews that I have met) are among the most vocal opponents of the Bush Administration. Gently remind him that the Neocons (Jewish or otherwise) have more loyalty to Israel than the U.S. Tell him to quit focusing on the ethnicity of the instigators, and focus on their corrupt, depraved ideology. I personally don't care if the traitor is white, black, jewish, asian, or whathaveyou, a traitor is a traitor.

MojoXN

[freeplessinseattle]

22. something weird, my Oma was a Polish POW during WWII

she lived in Danzig which was taken over by Germany, and I guess she met my Opa (after being released) at a dance for soldier's. Maybe they had a POW/soldier theme, I don't know. I used to think that story was romantic, now it's just bizarre and strangely unsettling. It's not like he had a choice to serve in the war, but still...

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UncleSepp]

27. You might introduce him to Jewish Voice for Peace

He might get it, he might not, but showing him Jewish organizations working against this war and other wars and for peace in Israel may at least let him see that "The Jews" have as many voices as they have mouths, and that there can't be a "Jewish agenda". Hell, invite your Opa to come along to Shabbat with us some night if he's ever in town. Maybe if he sees that real Jews don't bite, don't have horns, and are as different from each other as he thinks he is from all of them, he will have less of a reason to lump all "The Jews" together as spooky hive-minded aliens from Planet Israel.

(By the way, I am cracking up at your capitalization of The Jews. Perfect satire there! It looks like the name of a rock band written that way. "Aaaand now... forty years of touring the desert and they're stiiill rockin... yeah, put your hands together for Moses and The Jeeewwss!!")

So he was in the HJ and in the war. Meh. That's no real reason. I've known SS officers who have gotten over it. Some were Waffen-SS, one was an adjutant, so not as hardcore as it gets but still. One lives, one learns, but some people have a harder time letting go than others. With some people, there's a battle inside. If one doesn't admit that an action was wrong, you don't ever have to feel guilty for it. Some people also would rather defend a lie they believed was true to the death rather than admit they bought into a con.

It's wonderful that you still love your Opa, warts and all. Good for you, and lucky for him that he has a grandchild with a generous heart.

[freeplessinseattle]

33. thank you, maybe I should introduce him to my

sometimes lover, a Jewish bi-sexual woman (and I'm a also a bi woman) who wants to open a Kosher restaurant in Seattle, and just spent a few weeks in Israel.

I think part of it is he is a stubborn person and just has weird ideas about things that he reads in obscure books, like not drinking water or any liquids with meals, a grape and wine diet, etc. Plus I'm sure if he did face himself he'd feel some shame and regret for being bigoted for so long. We may as well celebrate our similarities and strengths and dwell less on our differences and weaknesses. hey that could be a bumper sticker. a long one.

yeah, every time he said The Jews I heard it capitalized, in Bob Barker's voice, "come on down". or like "The Bears", remember that SNL skit, about the football team fans? afor the life of me I can't remember what state "The Bears" movie theater

on edit: I just realized that we have met a couple times, howdy! maybe I'll see you at the meet-up next weekend!

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[praxiz]

32. On the other hand

It's frighteningly naïve to think that Israel plays no role in strong position that fundamentalist religious leaders have in the middle east.

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. At the risk of being pummeled by DUers, here's my advice.

You need to continue your relationship with your gramps, so find some common ground. It's safe to say that the Neo-cons were behind the attack on Iraq, and the Neo-cons do seem to have a pro-Israel agenda. That doesn't, however, mean they're all Jews.

Maybe you can open his eyes a bit in the process. With the amount of history he's seen, if someone opens up another avenue of thinking for him, it might lead to some very productive observations.