I walked out of church Sunday and I am not planning on going back

[greenbriar]

I am a Christian...A Baptist even and I have struggled to maintain my Poise in church.

Sunday we had a guest speaker and he made some comment about after the rapture all the liberal congress will be sitting around wondering what happened and Hillary would lead the charge.

Thats all it took. I sit on the second row and I grabbed my things and my child and walked boldly across the front and out the door!

[bicentennial_baby]

1. Ouch

Good for you. That stinks. :(

[Nordmadr]

2. Good for you! N/T

[wtbymark]

3. good for you

I welcome you to the Human race

[Hobarticus]

4. Good for you....brave thing to do.

Somehow, speeches about "us and them" don't seem to belong in a house of worship.

[greenbriar]

7. Thats what I told my hubby

he runs video for the church and after church he was kind of pissy at me until I told him

Church is NO place for this kind of shit and I wasn't going to continue to support it.

[Hobarticus]

51. Good lesson for your child, too...

One's own principles trump someone else's morals, every time.

Good show!

[AuntiBush]

116. Kukos to you for your courage! Kicked!

[bullimiami]

5. explain to my why these bastards are tax exempt again?

they are welcome to get involved in all the politics they want, but its not right that we should have to help pay for it.

[ComerPerro]

30. I said it below, but be sure to report this unregistered PAC

Its illegal to run a Political Action Comittee under a false name (like a church) to get tax exempt status.

Illegal and immoral.

[Democracy White]

6. Well good for you!

But I think their tax exempt status should go.

I really can't wait for the so-called "Rapture." Maybe then we'll finally have some peace!

Dee

[kliljedahl]

28. I totally agree

Keith’s Barbeque Central

[Carni]

42. Damn!

Can't you provide other posters with a warning label?

MY EYES ARE BURNING FROM YOUR TAG LINE PHOTO! UG! lol

[Democracy White]

44. LOL, It's a pic of Bush's face

attached to a female model but yeah sorry about your eyes dude!

Dee

[Carni]

101. I KNOW!

But again DAMN! ACK!

And that would be "dudette" lol

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

112. I thought your sig line was a quote from Lady Democrat - your comic book

character. Next it will be a quote from your favorite cookie "Ginger Snaps"

[Democracy White]

146. LOL!

Actually I changed the name due to a dream that I had. I will have to draw it up (the dream) and post it.

Dee

[liberal N proud]

8. That would do it for me as well.

Regardless of what my wife thought about it.
She too is a good Democrat, just a little more moderate than my self.
But even a comment like that might charge her.
She is usually don't rock the boat type when it comes to the fundies.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

9. Good FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

You already carry the righteousness in your heart. Your act on Sunday proved it.

That's the kind of antics that should have their tax-exempt status revoked. If I were you, I'd file a complaint with the IRS.

I'm serious.

[greenbriar]

14. how

do I do that?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

25. Let me find out

I'll get back to you in a minute.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

31. OK, there's no information on the IRS site

But, if you have a local IRS office you can call, I would, and find out if they have a procedure of the kind you're looking for.

I'm not optimistic, but, after all, it IS the government.

In the alternative, I would - and this might be the more effective path to take - contact your local newspaper, requesting anonymity (do that first), and see if they're interested in telling your story.

I would also contact "Countdown" and tell them what you did and why.

It's a GREAT story you've got there.

That's for starters. If I can help in any way, PM me. Those people are wrong.

And, again, applause for you and what you did.

[greenbriar]

35. Thanks

Countdown is a great idea

[ComerPerro]

38. Yeah, definately call "Countdown"

[havocmom]

49. Did you see that something like 68 IRS service centers were being closed?

Methinks they don't want to take the calls they know will be coming in on this very issue.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

61. But, I heard

they reopened in India.

:woohoo:

[havocmom]

71. Might as well

They send a lotta tax returns there for processing too.

[fudge stripe cookays]

100. Here ya go...

http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=131651,00.html

Here's what I'd do.

I'd send an OFFICIAL letter to the pastor, explaing why you left his church, and how improper his speaker was. See if you can find the actual statement on tax-exemption for churches on the IRS website and quote it in your letter. Make it very proper looking, with return information, and add the little cc: information at the bottom.

Included in the cc: information, type in "Internal Revenue Service," and maybe the local Baptist diocese office if you can find it, so he'll know a copy is going to his boss (whoever that is in the Baptist world). It'll scare the living crap out of the guy, and you'll definitely have made your point.

FSC

[greenbriar]

105. good idea

I am going to do that

[Polemicist]

108. Get your hubby to get a video copy...

Of the speaker making that political statement in the church. Give that also to the IRS. And to the TV station as well.

I just resigned my membership from the Southern Baptist Church last week, having been a member all my life. The denomination has moved away from me politically and is harming Christ's message by mixing it with Man's laws. I don't want my time or money supporting their extremist politics. And it wasn't like that even just 10 or 15 years ago. They have made a hard right turn and it's a great shame.

You made a brave stand in leaving in the middle of the service. I salute you for that stand. I wonder just how many good Christians have left the Baptist Church because of their misguided radical politics?

[tavalon]

133. When I left the Southern Baptist Church

22 years ago, the members were predominately Dems. I'm assuming that's all changed?

[Evergreen Emerald]

119. Hey, I have that button!

[fudge stripe cookays]

124. I need to get one.

This makes me feel better in the meantime.

FSC

[NuttyFluffers]

147. i want that button, NOW!

gimmie, gimmie, gimmie! where you get it!?

[fudge stripe cookays]

153. Here sweetie...

http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=y5089

FSC

[readermostly]

131. You are a hero!! You did exactly the right thing!. I'm proud of you!

[ollie79]

10. You know

Maybe you can go back at some point (after you cool) so you can be a lone voice of reason and such. I think both sides need to tone down the political rhetoric in churches. We should be more like Christ and less like political parties.

Kind of typical for S.B.

[Der Blaue Engel]

11. Good for you

I'm sorry that you had to leave your church, but I applaud your action. :thumbsup:

[rkc3]

12. Good for you. I've been thinking of taking the same actions - only I

don't go to church that often. And when I do it's at the in-laws church.

They're pretty much nutters, but they're good with my kids. I'd hate to burn that bridge.

Again, good for you. Follow it up with a letter to the minister telling him he overstepped his bounds.

[Lerkfish]

13. good for you.

I think such divisive talk is pointless in a house of worship.

[greenbriar]

21. I have been really struggling with the issues

seems that everything I am for the church is against but it also seems that they do not think WWJD as I believe Jesus would be a liberal in that he wanted to help everyone.


So I have been thinking I was not a good person until Sunday. I struggle no more! I am a true christian and they are not

This guest speaker was a "retired" preacher and was about 80 years old

[Lerkfish]

37. trust your instincts...which is really your inner spirit

discerning what is right.

You ARE a good person. What is happening is that other good people are being subverted by people using their own trust as a cattle prod against them, a cattle prod to accomplish earthly aims.

[TexasLady]

60. You are AWESOME!

To stand behind your convictions, however uncomfortable, and be able to go home and look proudly in that mirror....

Makes me wonder how many didnt have the guts to do what you did, and secretly wanted to....

You grew a foot and a half in your spirituality!

:yourock:

[bobbieinok]

68. at a pentecostal college, many women faculty walked out when John

Hagee (a pretty physically 'portly' minister) made a series of 'jokes' about overweight women in pentecostal congregations

the adm apologized later but claimed there were 'better ways' to protest than walking out

BTW, Hagee is a major pentecostal preacher with a mega church in San Antonio......I heard him say San Antonio 'is the witchcraft center of the US' ....... he and his ministry have also sponsored a series of movies about the rapture starring Gary Busey

[Dragonfli]

96. Jesus Was A Liberal

My Favorite Christian site explains the liberal Christian point of view brilliantly: http://liberalslikechrist.org/index.htm

Don't let a small minded petty Pharisee drive you from your faith or cause you to question whatever you feel Jesus has taught you personally.

I made a mistake well over 10 years ago. The mistake I made was confusing the pharisee crowd that had taken over the faithful with the faith itself.

Christ also ran into a "Pharisee or two".

IMHO as a Pagan/Former Baptist.
You are a true Christian-
Christians follow Christ, not Paul, Or Calvin Or "retired preachers"
IMHO

[spindoctor]

15. I walked out of church 30 years ago and never looked back

Religion is like good wine. It is best enjoyed in good company and the privacy of your own home. ;)

[Blue Belle]

16. Good for You!!

I hope that sends a message. Well Done!! :applause:

[Alizaryn]

17. Good for you. A valuble lesson for your child to stand

up for what they believe in too.

[Wildewolfe]

18. Good for you!

The sad part about all this...

1 - The rapture isn't even biblically supported as folks believe in it today.

2 - folks don't give a shit about the future with the "rapture right around the corner". Global warming? who cares!

[donheld]

77. Welcome to DU Wildewolfe

:hi:

[Proud_Lefty]

19. Wow - Good for you

I used to go to church and would bite my tongue as everyone talked about how we knew the truth and everyone else was in the darkness. I was always holding myself back from yelling, Didn't you guy get the part about God wanting us to come to Him in all our humility? When I finally left the church, they all pitied me in prayer. These churches scare me. They don't know anything about a higher being.

[denverbill]

20. Good for you.

Frankly, if the rapture occurs, there are going to be a helluva lot of surprised evangelicals. I rarely if ever hear an evangelical quote Jesus.

'turn the other cheek'
'love your neighbor as yourself'
'it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man get into heaven'
'if a man takes your cloak, give him your coat as well'
'he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword'

He didn't say anything about hating gays, prayer in schools, hating non-Christians, making war, owning guns, or anything else they yammer on about.

[kwolf68]

22. Im Methodist

The previous church I attended was full of mostly Conservative people, but good people for the most part. The winner was the Pastor…he was nothing short of brilliant (Duke seminary) and NEVER EVER mixed Politics with Religion, but you could get a sense he wasn’t part of the Pat Robertson brigade.

I had to move (job) so the new church is not near as good. Lots of Bushbots (and I saw no Kerry stickers in the parking lot, my car had a Kerry sticker but never drive the family in it), but the preacher tries to keep things biblical and not political.

Again, even this church full of Repukes still speaks of helping those less fortunate. It does it in a personal sense. I’m all for that…just don’t feed me any right-wing horse shit. The wife is already prepared for the day they roll right-wing politics at me…it aint gonna be pretty.

[ComerPerro]

33. That's all well and good, but in that case the hypocrisy would get to me

Its all talk.

[Lars39]

23. I'm sorry, greenbriar.

It really sucks to lose your spiritual home. :(
I rag on the Southern Baptist Convention so much because I hate what
it is doing to congregations, pitting people against their neighbors and family.
More and more, the good people are going to have to take a stand,
either like you did in walking out, or in directly confronting the Pharisees.

[MellowOne]

24. Please God, come and get them soon

And take all your good servants, Bush, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfield to their reward.

[ComerPerro]

27. "Attention, Customers. If there is a God in the store,

please come and pick up your children. They have been left unattended in the store and are completely trashing aisle six. Thank you."

[grannylib]

118. *lololol* Crap, I just spit coffee all over my keyboard, damn....

Shit, that's funny...

[thereismore]

32. trouble is, Bush and the rest of the criminals

would get to stay. They are not Christians.

[MellowOne]

125. But they want us to think they are

My post was totally sarcastic.

[ComerPerro]

26. You have a lot more self-control than I do

I probably would have loudly said "What a bunch of Bullshit" and then told the preacher off before walking out.

Have you considered notifying the IRS of your "preachers" unregistered PAC?

[greenbriar]

29. how?

and it was a guest preacher. OUr preacher was not there

[ComerPerro]

36. oh ok. I misunderstood. I thought it was your regular preacher

[GreenPartyVoter]

34. Good for you! *hugs*

[militaryWife]

39. If the speaker was a guest...

how is your regular pastor? Or is just a straw/camel issue? I was raised Baptist, left in college and never went back. Now that I have children, we attend the Methodist church- a lot more reasonable, and, according to Pat Roberston, Methodists are going to hell- we must be doing something right? No?

I had to leave a church once when I realized the pastor was an idiot. It was much more difficult that I expected it to be, and I've never been the same- church (not faith) wise. I hope you are prepared.

mw

[raccoon]

40. Way to go, Greenbriar!

I agree with some of the posters who said if churches are getting political, they need to have their tax exempt status yanked.

After it hit the news that Paster Chandler had resigned (I suspect it was "quit or be fired") from East Waynesville Baptist Church, I called the church and left a message saying essentially that they were well rid of him. I left my real name and number.

[Carni]

41. Bravo to you!

This is what everyone that attends a church that spouts GOP crap should do!

[thereismore]

43. I just had a disagreement with another Church member

about the war. He is a neo-con, loves the pre-emptive doctrine, Arabs are bad, yada yada yada. I basically said that he is not a Christian. He demands that I "recant" and apologize, and pushing the case towards Church discipline. What's your take?

[catmandu57]

46. I would cite the sermon on the mount

and tell him to bring it on.
Greenbriar you have more patience than I, if I had been pushed to the point you were, I would have called bullshit loudly, and given my reason why I could no longer be a member of a non christian enclave.
I would contact the people for the America way, or the ACLU to see if they could help.

[militaryWife]

47. sounds like he took a page from

the republican's playbook. Attack the messenger. Let him make an issue of it, it would be a perfect forum to shine the light on the hypocracy of supporting one political party within the church.

mw

[annabanana]

87. you should post this as a new post

(there is a religion forum that might be able to give some more specific info for you to use)

[ms liberty]

152. Try these sites for information and assistance:

Americans United for Separation of Church & State

Liberals Like Christ

Jesus was a Liberal

I don't know their web addresses or have access to my links to add, but googling will get you there, I'm sure.

Also, somewhere on DU a couple of months ago was an editorial from yuricareport.com (I think it's .com) called "Blood Guilty Churches"

Also again, there's a new progressive group called the Christian Alliance for Progress. And you might want to try the American Society of Friends (the Quakers)- they, of course, are very antiwar (one of my great grandmother's family were Quakers)

Peace be with you

[thereismore]

156. Hey ms liberty, these are WONDERFUL resources. Thank you! nt

[ladjf]

45. Great move. It took lots of courage to depart in that manner.

I'm sure that others in the congregation were feeling uncomfortable with the speakers message. You don't have to go to church to experience the spiritual side of life. In fact, church, as you just saw, is often an impediment to spiritual life.

[Maestro]

48. Way to take a stand!

I too have been going through this.

Take a look at this archived thread of mine from November I think.

I think I've lost my religion

[TWiley]

50. It is not church, it is a PAC and they carry GUNS.

Thank God you are safe now.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

52. God Bless You

:loveya:

[Ilsa]

53. Good for you! That was the healthiest thing to do, IMO,

and a great lesson for your child. Best wishes to you. i hope someone calls you to find out for certain why you left.

[ThomWV]

54. Thank You

I noticed that no one thanked you. You are deserving of all of our thanks. When anyone stands up to the tyrany of religion used for political purpose they stand up for everyone. So thank you once again, for standing up for me.

[really annoyed]

56. I'll Second That!

ThomWV, Your post reflects my views on the situation.

Greenbriar, I hope that you can find a new spiritual home for your family. I'm still searching for mine! I'm not a religious person, which makes it twice as hard. How many churches can a heathen go to anyway? :)

Your child learned a valuable lesson too - principle over politics. Good for you.

[sinkingfeeling]

55. Bravo!

[Qanisqineq]

57. Great job! (n/t)

[Vinca]

58. I, for one, wish the rapture would happen immediately.

Get those folks outta here so we can reclaim our country.

[HeeBGBz]

59. Good for you!

Good that you walked out. Sad that you are done with church. Sad that fundies and neocons are main reason many people have walked away never to return.

God will kick their asses someday. I hope I'm there to see it.

There are aspects of church that part of me really misses, but I'm not gonna play their political/guilt game.

[evolved Anarchopunk]

62. psshhhhhhhh... .....

ppppsssssssssshhhhhhh HAHAHAHAHAHA! I've done it too, although not as flashy, but at an Easter service. I can't take that brainwash shit, i couldn't even sit there for my dad....


and i love my dad, and now i love you greenbriar.

grouphug! :grouphug:

[Daphne08]

63. Well, if someone does come for these so-called Christians

we have today, I doubt it will be the real Christ.

I don't blame you for leaving that church, greenbriar. I find it sad that everyone did NOT walk out.


Real Christians would never spout (nor would they endure) this kind of garbage in church!

[Melynn]

64. Good job, Greenbriar

It would have been nice if someone stood up in Church and called bullshit on this "preacher".

[Judi Lynn]

65. You've graduated, greenbriar! Bless your heart.

I'm hoping your action will plant seeds of introspection in the hearts of others who are ready to look for a better world, even if it means leaving a familiar, and sometimes comforting safety net.

My parents went through it, too. It's defintely not something done easily. I'm certain you won't regret it, and your instincts will move you to find an excellent next step.

[quaoar]

66. It would take a lot to run me off from my church

I heard a story once about an elderly woman who had attened the same church for nearly 40 years. One day a new minister was named and he quickly started to alienate people in the church. Many of her friends decided to leave and join another church instead. They asked her why she didn't leave also.

She replied: "I was here long before that minister came here and I'll still be here after he leaves."

[demodonkey]

73. My mother quit after they started holding anti-gay HATE group meetings...

... in our church under the name "Defense of Marriage"!

This is a mainstream Methodist Church that was founded by my mother (she went to the district superintendent of the Methodist Church to see about getting a new charter), and built by my father (now deceased, who was chair of original building committee).

Church has in recent years fallen into the Dobson "Focus On the Family" trap, along with the "Purpose Driven Church".

Nationally, the Methodist Church's slogan claims something like "Open Minds, Open Hearts, Open Doors" but this one's doors are LOCKED at all times (security, you know!) and as for hearts and minds, well....

I was never a big church-goer myself, but my mother now attends and supports a much smaller Presbyterian Church where she does not hesitate to stand up for what and who she believes in. She maintains her membership in her original Methodist Church though, and lets them know regularly how upset she is!

[sellitman]

67. I applaud you.

I'd write the Minister and tell him why you left too. He may have thought you were constipated instead of aggravated.

[cthrumatrix]

69. nice..... I hope Benedict is taking notes....way to go church leaders

[mitchum]

70. May he soon be with Jesus

very soon

[Catherine Vincent]

72. There should have been others to follow you.

Politics have nothing to do with church service. What a fool!

[lonestarnot]

74. Ewwweee! Join a group of liberal baptists in your neighborhood....

have Church at home like my son and I ... "wherever 2 or more are gathered in my name..."

[David Zephyr]

75. If only there were more like you, greenbriar.

I'm certain that you will find a better place to worship. You have just made the same decision that President Carter made.

I imagine that Jesus walked out with you and your child.

[greenbriar]

76. What did Carter do?

I hadn't heard about this?

[David Zephyr]

83. President Jimmy Carter and Former First Lady Rosalynn Cut Ties With SBC

Hi greenbriar, I hope this article will let you know that you are not alone and are in very good company:

------------

Carter, Southern Baptists Part Ways

ATLANTA, October 21, 2000 CBS): The Southern Baptists, already suffering from defections because of the denomination's conservative positions, have lost one of their best-known members: former president Jimmy Carter.

Mr. Carter, whose evangelical Christian faith figured prominently in his 1976 White House campaign, said in a letter mailed to fellow Baptists that he is cutting ties to the Southern Baptist Convention after struggling with the "increasingly rigid" creed of the nation's largest Protestant denomination.

CBS News Correspondent Jacqueline Adams reports that Mr. and Mrs. Carter are unhappy with the group's recent decisions barring women pastors and declaring that wives should "submit graciously" to their husbands. These principles "violate the basic premises of my Christian faith," Mr. Carter wrote.

"I've made this decision with a great deal of pain and reluctance," the 76-year-old Mr. Carter said on Friday.

"For me, being a Southern Baptist has always been like being an American. I just have never thought of making a change. My father and his father were deacons and Sunday school teachers. It's something that's just like breathing for us."

But he added: "I personally feel the Bible says all people are equal in the eyes of God. I personally feel that women should play an absolutely equal role in service of Christ in the church."

The former president's wife, Rosalynn believes the Southern Baptists are out of step on these key issues. "What the Southern Baptists had to say didn't have any reflection on how I felt or believe."

The full story is here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/10/21/national/main243084.shtml

[greenbriar]

88. Wow

tHANK you very much.

I have always admired Carter. To know that he himself is struggling with the same issues I am makes me feel a whole lot better!!!


Thanks

:hug:

[David Zephyr]

97. Glad to help out someone as courageous as you.

That must have been pretty hard for you to have done. I admire you for it. I think that there were others in the church --- who are secretly admiring you also.

In any event, Jesus walked out with you and your child.

[EVDebs]

78. They should all be reading End Time Delusions by Steve Wohlberg

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

is a brief weblink outlining much of what Wohlberg's book explains, but in a nutshell, the Left Behind eschatology is based upon faulty biblical interpretation (which was originally designed to deflect investigation of the Papacy's role in prophesy during the Counter-Reformation).

The secret pre-tribulation rapture your guest speaker mentions is biblically unsound. BTW, it looks like they'll be going through tribulations with everybody else...only with egg on their faces.

[tsuki]

79. When I was young, and I was once, it was a different age and a

different circumstance...but I digress. I was always taught that God judges, and anyone who dared to judge for God and divine his will was a blasphemer.

Things certainly have changed.

[neuvocat]

80. Church is not for political grandstanding.

I ended up leaving a church a while back because of their support of "family values" which meant that if you were single then you essentially deserved to be ostracized.

You did the right thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

81. Greenbriar, I agree with the poster who said to tell your minister

about why you left, that it was on a matter of principle.

Then find yourself a church, perhaps American Baptist or United Methodist or Episcopal or ELCA Lutheran or UCC, that hasn't lost its way.

[UdoKier]

82. There are lots of much better denominations out there...

Is there any reason you have to go to a Baptist Church?

The Quakers, Unitarians, Presbyterians, etc. are all more progressive. If faith is important to you, you might find a better community of faith there...

[greenbriar]

84. I was raised in the Baptist church and I believe

97% of what is taught

Our current church is a lot more progressive/contemporary than the one I was raised in.

Aside from the political aspect. I love it, but after sunday I am really discouraged.

[David Zephyr]

85. Kicking.

I hope everyone can read your courageous story, greenbriar.

[peacebird]

86. Bravo, greenbriar! Way to go!

[napi21]

89. So has anyone from your Church contacted you since?

I would think, if they really cared about their members, the minister, or some other leaders would have contacted you to urge you to return.

[greenbriar]

90. nope, but our church as two services

that are attended by 300+ each service

[smartvoter]

91. Good!!! Sick of this crap... nt

[14MNE]

92. This is what happens when religion and politics are combined

I have seen a lot of this in recent times.
So many folks on the hard right want to claim Christianity for themselves, as if people with another political ideology aren't entitled to their practices. It's sad that something as pure as worship becomes polarized based on the commentary of a very vocal, and very unfortunate minority.

[Swamp Rat]

141. "Can you tell a green field,"

"From a cold steel rail, do you think you can tell." :D

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[undeterred]

93. I walked out of a conservative church 23 years ago and never looked back

It had to do with some classes in the church on the role of women and I disagreed with what was being taught. I talked to the pastor and I realized then that this was no place for an intelligent ambitious woman.

A few months later I walked into a UCC church. It was a racially mixed congregation and that Sunday there was a young black woman preaching. I thought to myself "a black woman preaching and white men listening- God must be in this place". It was an epiphany to me that there was this other kind of Christianity which practiced the radical teachings of Jesus...

[roguevalley]

94. my mom and dad did that when the idiot said not to vote for Kennedy

because he was Catholic. I admire all of you for doing that. HUZZAH!

[greenbriar]

95. I bet our preacher when I was growing up would

have said the same thing

[progressivebydesign]

98. Kudos to you!!!! I would have done the same!!

NO WAY would I have sat still for that. You were very right to leave and to do so publicly. It's disgusting to see how many so-called Christian churches get involved in those things.

I'm afraid that the behavior of the right wing christians has soured me on religion completely. If you're still the church going kind, then I'd suggest a Unitarian Church.. they are super involved in social issues and there is not that exclusionary judgemental attitude that so many other churches have. Apparently the UCC is also a good one..

Good for you!! YOu stood up and people took notice!!

[Kerrytravelers]

99. Good for you. Contact the IRS.

My parents walked after 22 years in their church for the same resons. Mr. kt and I don't go anymore, either. We can't reconcile sitting next to someone, or hearing the message of peace, love and hope from a pastor who all go and support * and his merry band of murderers.

I find myself networking with others of faith (and all faiths) and working together to regain Christianity back form the christo-fascist zombie-brigade.

PM me if you need to talk.

[Rainscents]

102. Awesome! You did the right thing and good for you!

[Booster]

103. Now, you are a TRUE Christian and I applaud you. I only wish

all Christians, and I'm sure a majority would, feel the same way. You taught your daughter a better Christian lesson on Sunday than the preacher or his guest speaker could. Bully for you.

[Stew225]

104. class and courageous act! I salute you! eom

[Gelliebeans]

106. PLEASE READ !!!

this is a fact sheet put out by the IRS (3-29-02) on their procedures where a third party is reporting a complaint about a tax exempt organization. There is a washington number 202-622-4000

We need to start letting these churches know that they won't be keeping that cushy tax-exempt status if they want to play politics.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/fs-02-10.pdf

[MarianJack]

107. Thank You Gelliebeans!

There are a few churches here in Maine that need to know this!

[Gelliebeans]

110. your welcome MarianJack

I think we should shout this from the rooftops that we are watching and if they continue to ignore rules we will see that laws are enforced. This might deter other churches from joining the political fray. :shrug: worth a try ;)

[MarianJack]

109. Good For You!

ChicaAzul and I are watching our Church VERY closely and we will NOT tolerate it in our faith community!

[demgurl]

111. I know it took an enormous amount of courage to do that.

I admire you and want to thank you for doing what is right. It is a shame more people are not like you.

[Andromeda]

113. Hope you don't go back to that church.

There are better churches you can go to for spirtual comfort.

What did the speaker mean by Hillary leading the charge? Maybe I'm dense but if the liberals are all sitting around wondering what happened, where did all the Republicans go?

I guess they must have caught a ride on that last comet that flew by the earth.

[mzmolly]

114. Good for you! I'd send them an email explaining why you left as well.

:hi:

[LittleClarkie]

115. I keep telling my Baptist friend

Schiavo and the Pope. That's it. Rapture done now.

What denomination are/were you? I was amazed to find out that the American Baptists are much like my Lutheran ELCA liberal denomination. We're Satan's spawn, doncha know.

[candy331]

117. I walked out 3 years ago closed the door and never looked back,

organized religion is nothing more than a "racket and a snare". Just WWJD, I say the same.

[DemBones DemBones]

120. Good for you! Let's hope that inspired others to think about

the proper relationship of religion and politics.

I'm especially glad you weren't a back pew Baptist whose departure was unnoticed!!! Leaving from the second row sends a MESSAGE.

Since it was a guest speaker showing his ignorance, perhaps you should have a no-holds-barred conversation with your minister before giving up on this church for good. Assuming you have liked the church and minister until now, that is. He should be calling YOU but maybe you scared him. ;-) Even if you've decided to never return, it might be very satisfying to tell him why, especially since you mentioned struggling to maintain your poise -- sounds like he may have been partly at fault here.

[greenbriar]

122. I think I will talk with our pastor

up to now, he has been very discrete on his politics. He has said there ought to be christians on both sides of the asile

I do not agree with them on their abortion stance, but I overlooked that because it is a personal choice

I can not tolorate the hypocracy of the "liberal" evil propaganda

[DemBones DemBones]

157. One way or the other, I think it will be a good thing to do.

If he has said there ought to be Christians on both side of the aisle, he may have been embarrassed by the guest speaker's comments. Talking with him will ensure that he got your message and didn't, perhaps, think you left because your child was sick or you were sick. He might even have thought you were taking your child out because s/he was acting up in some way -- a common reason for parents walking out with kid in tow.

Or you'll find out that he doesn't care or doesn't understand why you were angry and you'll have the satisfaction of telling him he's a hypocrite and you're leaving the church.

Plus it's a good lesson for your child in conflict resolution, as opposed to just walking away, on the heels of an excellent lesson about standing up for principles even when they're not popular in a group.

[quaker bill]

121. Thank you

Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.

[FreedomAngel82]

123. I'm sorry for that

I hate when preachers bring politics into church like that. I'm lucky that has never happened to me at a service. :hug:

[Vektor]

126. My parents did that when I was four years old.

I was the youngest of five kids. They grabbed us all and walked out, but not before voicing their opinion about the hypocrisy and judgmental behavior of the church. It was quite an awesome scene and I remember it as if it were just yesterday. I was SO proud. Still am.

None of us ever went back.

Who needs it?

[mistertrickster]

127. When they ask where you are, tell them you got raptured early.

Now you can give your tithes to the DNC. They're more Christian than the religious right.

[CAG]

128. Kudos to you

I have been in similar situations when I was a Southern Baptist. I finally left to join a united methodist church about a year ago. I have found that Methodists teach about all 33 books of the new testament, not only the 8 verses that talk about homosexuality or abortion (tongue in cheek).

How anyone that has Jesus in their heart look and listen to the Bush's, Cheney's, Delay's, Gingrich's, etc, and really feel that they live by Christ's teachings is beyond me. They are totally in a rationalized, selfish, la-la land of reality.

[NAO]

129. Report them to Americans United and read them the Bible Based riot act

which explains why it will be the Republican Congress that will be wondering what happened...

First, this church should be reported to Americans United for Seperation of Church and State. This is NOT an anti-Christian group, many of the leaders are ministers. It is a group to ensure the seperation of church and state - a very important freedom.

Americans United for Seperation of Church and State
http://www.au.org/site/PageServer

Second, read them the riot act - some variation of this rant I posted here on DU some months back. It explains - in VERY PLAIN TERMS - why the Religious Right is WRONG on BOTH Social AND Economic agendas.

******

If we were trully a Christian Nation, things would be EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of those supported by the so-called "religious right".

IF we were a truly Christian Nation, we would NOT have elected Bush nor would we tolerate ANY of the SOCIAL POLICY nor the ECONOMIC POLICY of the GOP, both of which are opposed by the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The "Christian Right" has got it WRONG on both the "values agenda" AND the right wing economic/abolition of social programs agenda.

On Being a Christian Nation

Part I: Jesus vs. The Social Conservatives - Culture Wars in the Time of Christ

- Let Him Who Is Without Sin Condemn the First Gay (John 8:3-11)
- Foreign Objects in the Eyes, or Jesus Teaches Us How (and More Importantly, to Whom) to Apply Biblical Laws (Matthew 7:1-3)

Part II: Jesus vs. The Economic Conservatives - Did Jesus Teach Personal or Social Responsibility?
- Separating the Sheep Nations from the Goat Nations, Based on Domestic Economic Policy - Subsistence Programs (Matthew 25:31-46)
- Not My Responsibility? The Pharisee and the Levite Had Excuses, too (Luke 10:30-37)

Part III: Putting Parts I and II Together - On Being a Christian Nation
- What Parts of the Bible Should we Apply to Nations and to Government Policy?
- What Parts of the Bible Should we Apply only to Individuals?

**********************

Part I: Jesus vs. The Social Conservatives - Culture Wars in the Time of Christ

Let Him Who Is Without Sin Condemn the First Gay (John 8:3-11)

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Foreign Objects in the Eyes, or Jesus Teaches Us How (and More Importantly, to Whom) to Apply Biblical Laws (Matthew 7:1-3)

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Part II: Jesus vs. The Economic Conservatives - Did Jesus Teach Personal or Social Responsitility?

Seperating the Sheep Nations from the Goat Nations, Based on Domestic Economic Policy - Subsistence Programs (Matthew 25:31-46)

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Not My Responsibility? The Priest and the Levite Didn't Think So, Either (Luke 10:30-37)

In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

Part III: Putting Parts I and II Together - On Being a Christian Nation

What Parts of the Bible Should we Apply to Nations and to Government Policy? What Parts of the Bible Should we Apply only to Individuals?

The Religious Right frequently emphasizes that God will Judge us "as a Nation". They combine this notion with their condemnation of certain behaviors of individuals, and this is the basis of the "culture wars" and the "values vote". They rally for the government to pass laws that uphold (their version of) Biblical standards. They want to ban gay marriage. They maintain that as Christians, we should not only observe God's commandments, but enact them as governmental legislation.

Curiously, when passages such as Matthew 25:31-46 are discussed, they quickly retreat from the notion that Christs teachings should be enacted as government legislation. They assert that charity - helping the poor, feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, and so forth - should be left to individuals and to the churches. They do not believe that these divine directives should be on the national agenda, nor do they believe that welfare and other subsistence programs are properly the duty of the federal government.

So if it's about condemning sin, they are in favor of shaping government and passing laws to mirror God's directives...but when it's about taking care of 'the least of these', they think that it should be left to individuals, that it is not the proper place of the governmetn to pass laws to enforce these divine directives. Now that would seem to be the exact opposite of what Jesus plainly taught in the passages cited above (Judge not, let him who is without sin, etc). Somehow, those on the Religious Right have got it wrong on both counts, and have both issues completely backwards.

They are working to have the values agenda (which is nothing more than the condemning of others based on the Laws of Moses) built into the structure of government...but when you talk about building the helping of the poor, the feeding of the sick into the structure of government, they immediately launch into right wing talking points about how THAT is not the proper role of government, but should be left to private individuals and charities.

Now the words of Jesus quoted above indicate, beyond any doubt, that the exact opposite is the correct course in both cases. Adherence to the Laws of Moses SHOULD be left to private individuals and at most, the churches. We have been commanded by Jesus NOT to engage in the moral condemnation of others. Conversely, we have been commanded to feed, clothe and shelter those in need.

If Christians REALLY want a Christian nation, they should vote for a ban on the condemning of sinners (unless of course you are 100% sin free, in which case feel free to blast them) AND they should provide a MANDATE for social programs.

[Bluerthanblue]

130. you did the right thing, in the right place-

a church is simply a bulding- a religion is not a faith
calling oneself a 'Christian' doesn't mean that one lives a 'Christ' like life-

it's all just labels- all just words- our actions reveal our souls-
'religious or not'- all the talk in the world means nothing if it isn't demonstrated in a persons living.

Talk is cheap- action even peaceful (sometimes ESPECIALLY peaceful) demonstrations of ones convictions can cost alot- but it's worth it-
to do anything else is to live a lie- to live in bondage to pretense.

Good for you- AND what a great example for your child.-

Jesus greatest struggles controling his anger came when those who 'claimed' to be righteous and 'godly' but hid thier greed, self centeredness and pride behind thier 'religousness' while pointing thier judgemental fingers at 'the evildoers'-


(off topic)
i admire Durbin for apologizing for hurting anyone by his remarks- better to seek reconcilliation, then to cling stubbornly to anger-
Bush said at the begining of this whole mess what seems like a lifetime ago now- "no negotiations"-
he revealed everything in those 2 words, if only people would have listened.

[Douglas Carpenter]

132. see this website for a different kind of evangelical

:kick:


http://www.sojo.net

Although I havn't been an evangelical for many years. I do know that there are many who are not rightwing extremist. And more than just a few are progressives:


http://www.sojo.net

[greenbriar]

134. Thanks

I am going to look into it

[EC]

135. Sorry you had to give up your church

had you been a member long? There are plenty others...


Did anyone follow?

[NMMNG]

136. Greenbriar, a true American hero

:yourock:

[Sapphire Blue]

137. You might be interested in the Christian Alliance for Progress

Christian Alliance for Progress: http://www.christianalliance.org

Reclaim Christianity - Flash movie: http://www.christianalliance.org/site/c.bnKIIQNtEoG/b.689007/k.2601/Flash_Movie.htm

About the Alliance

The success of the Religious Right in appropriating the language of Christianity has led many people to become generally wary of religion in the public sphere and of Christianity in particular. The Religious Right has used the language of Christianity to promote an extreme and divisive political agenda that has helped polarize our nation. But foundational Christian values like compassion, justice and peace are largely absent from our political discussion. And there are millions of Christian Americans who share progressive views, or, at a minimum, are increasingly turned off by the extreme rhetoric and political agenda of the Religious Right.

The Christian Alliance for Progress is a national movement that started in Jacksonville, Florida among ordinary Americans who want to reclaim Christianity and change this current political picture. Members in the movement want to restore core values of Christianity while honoring diverse views about religion and Christian life. Many Americans, especially people of faith, are ready to hear from Christians who are tolerant, and who understand the many ways that our faiths impact our views of public life. The Christian Alliance advances a renewed, progressive vision of Gospel values and seeks to help Americans express this moral vision in our lives and in our politics

http://www.christianalliance.org/site/c.bnKIIQNtEoG/b.592961/k.ABD2/About_the_Alliance.htm

Mission Statement

The mission of the Christian Alliance for Progress to reclaim Christianity and transform American politics. We advance a renewed, progressive vision of Gospel values and help Americans express this moral vision in how we think, work, and vote.

Purpose

The members of the Christian Alliance for Progress believe we have an obligation to reclaim the vocabulary of Christianity from extremists and to restore the morals and values of Christianity. We bring together progressive Christians and other Americans who share our passion and convictions. We will use the collective power of our individual members to help shape the political realities in our country and to strive to build a more just and compassionate nation.

http://www.christianalliance.org/site/c.bnKIIQNtEoG/b.593897/k.BA27/Mission_Statement.htm

How We Seek to Follow the Jesus of the Gospels - Seven Values We Share:

Compassion and Care for "The Least of These"
We follow Jesus' call to compassion and his command to "love your neighbor as you love yourself."

Responsibility and Obligation
We heed the call to take up our cross - to transform our lives, but also to do more: to move beyond the "personal" and to take responsibility in our communities and country.

Justice for All
We stand against powerful systems of human injustice in our world as Jesus stood against them in his.

Equality and Inclusiveness
Like Jesus did among women, tax collectors, Samaritans and others, we reject hurtful exclusionary distinctions between "us" and "them."

Faithful Stewardship
We follow Jesus' call for responsible stewardship - caring protection for the environment and sharing of our worldly treasure.

Right Use of Power
We turn away from fear; we use the power of God that flows through us to protect the innocent and build justice in the world, not to coerce others to our will or force others to accept our vision.

Spiritual Foundation
We turn to God as our spiritual foundation.

http://www.christianalliance.org/site/pp.aspx?c=bnKIIQNtEoG&b=593859


Sign up to join the movement: http://www.christianalliance.org/site/c.bnKIIQNtEoG/b.672245/k.9CA4/Sign_Up_to_Join_the_Movement/apps/ka/ct/contactus.asp?

Sign the Jacksonville Declaration: http://www.christianalliance.org/site/c.bnKIIQNtEoG/b.683987/k.39F5/Sign_the_Jacksonville_Declaration/apps/ka/ct/contactus.asp?c=bnKIIQNtEoG&b=683987&en=ftINIXOMKeKNLbOLLeKULaNPKaKUJfPOIjL3IiP2H

[funflower]

138. Way to go, greenbriar.

I'm old enough to remember when being a Christian didn't mean being a RW hatemonger.

[ngGale]

139. Good for you...

my neighbor stopped going for the same reason. She said she went to church to hear scripture, not a political rally.

[anarchy1999]

140. Hooray for you, dear. It took lots, but you did it. Thank you for us all!

n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

142. I am very sorry. I know how difficult it is to

leave a faith family that has been a regular part of your life. Not only have I done it, but as a UU I routinely provide pastoral care to others who are so wounded. If it is important to you I hope you are able to find another religious community that can do a better job of nurturing one another's souls while respecting the uniqueness of the individual.

Peace

[GOPFighter]

143. I was raised in a Baptist church...

...their religion was conservative politics. A bunch of sweet people who were convinced God hated anything liberal and voted accordingly.

It took a lot of guts to do what you did.

[JHB]

144. The Rapture has already happened...

...and all those who were waiting for it commited the sin of assuming they'd be among the saved and gloating over the fate of those they assumed wouldn't. So guess which side you're on, Sinner!

At least, that's the line I feed Rapturebots when I'm in a 'stir the pot' mood :evilgrin:

[greenbriar]

145. interesting way to think

of it

[mediaman007]

154. Good Bumper Sticker

The Rapture happened...YOU weren't chosen!

[marions ghost]

148. thank you for standing up

:applause:

I honestly believe that Christians like you who stop putting up with this insidious form of brainwashing in the churches--will help us get out of this nightmare our country is suffering. At this point we are all victims of religious zealots with a political agenda.

[CitySky]

149. hi Greenbriar

Sounds pretty upsetting. Don't give up on finding fellowship with other Christians. At my church we are a diverse bunch - certainly plenty of Dems and R's alike in that crowd - but we have enough sense to keep politics away from the pulpit.

[greenbriar]

150. Thanks

I hope it made people think

[patricia92243]

151. You did the right thing. Such hate coming from a minister - sad indeed.

[Weembo]

155. Sorry that happened

You are always welcome at our church -- the UCC -- and you would not be the first to come over from another institution.

[deadparrot]

158. Way to go.

It seems like every Christian church nowadays in being hijacked by the religious right.

If they're going to preach politics, take away their tax-exempt status, period. End of story.