I'm sick of covering for my co-workers who have kids. Am I an a-hole?

[eeyore]

Does anyone else feel this way? I have co-workers who have kids - I do not. I am constantly having to pick up the slack when they leave early to pick up their kids, go to a game or a performance. It's always something, and since I don't have kids I end up holding the bag and doing their work for them.

It's like there is this unwritten rule that when you have a kid you are doing something noble for society, and thus are entitled to let the childless work harder.

I just don't buy it. Sex is a choice, having a child is a choice. Why should I have to work harder because someone made a choice to have a child? I know plenty of people who could not even afford to have a child, but they really wanted to experience parenthood and had a kid under financial duress on purpose. Now they are financially strapped, can't afford childcare, and expect me to do their work while they parent. Fuck that!

I feel like a real asshole for even saying all of this, but I just don't see what gives here. Why should the childless constantly be asked to pick up after those who choose to breed?

Thanks for listening. Anyone else feel like me, or am I just an insensitive jackass who lives up to his screen name?

-eeyore

[Horse with no Name]

1. I dunno but I got almost this same post in an email awhile back

:shrug:

[eeyore]

4. I didn't send it...

I swear!

:-)

[Yupster]

120. I don't resent the time off

though my secretary with three daughters takes a lot of it.

I more resent the $ 4,000 a year school tax. Since the house is paid off, I have to write the check myself. I see it.

I understand the need for public education, and I understand it is my choice to not send my own kid to public school, and I understand that I should be generous in paying for other people's kids to be educated, but $ 4,000 a year just for school taxes seems like my generosity is being taken advantage of.

Depending on where you live, we pay between $ 8,000 and $ 10,000 per kid per year for his public school education. Maybe it's just me, but that seems like an awful lot. If there's 25 kids in a class, that's $ 250,000 per year per class. I don't see where all the money goes. It sure doesn't go to the teacher because I was one of them for nine years.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. I saw it about a year ago.

Time to yell "Author? Author?" :)

[lonestarnot]

108. I have also seen it.

[Maru Kitteh]

155. I agree, I've seen this near exact post in an email too! I'm begining to

doubt it's origins.

[UncleSepp]

249. Uh oh, more than one person has had this experience, must be fake

:shrug:

[jody]

2. Politely refuse to do their work unless they have a real emergency.

Good luck. :hi:

[BlueIris]

13. Yeah.

Also, IMHO, your managers, supervisors and executives really need to step up here. There are lots of offices and companies run successfully and fairly in which employees with families can find ways to meet their family responsibilities without forcing coworkers to do extra work in their absence. I've worked in them.

[AlienGirl]

3. Are you also sick of covering for chronically ill/disabled coworkers?

[Scout]

7. I'd be willing to bet

that the chronically ill and disabled did not purposefully, knowingly put themselves into their illness or disability and then ask other people to pick up the slack.

I think there is a difference between the situation in the OP and yours.

[eeyore]

16. Not at all.

Everyone has a right to work, and I have no problem helping out with someone who has a condition that is out of their control.

Listen, I understand that I'm teetering on a very ugly conservative viewpoint here. I just think that people should be responsible enough to fulfill their commitments - all of them. If you can't handle the load, don't sign up for the job.

I grew up in a household where my mom stayed home and my dad was never home. Now most parents work outside the house and then come home to do the job of parenting. I'm not sure what is the better situation.

In a perfect liberal world things would be very different. But right now child rearing is very hard on parents and non-parents alike.

[misanthrope]

168. What's conservative about...

..that viewpoint? It's very far outside the mainstream and most, if not all, conservatives are very pro-natal.

[funflower]

261. The idea that no one should help anybody else out is conservative.

That's why they're against every social support program ever invented. It infringes on their blessed freedom.

[NMDemDist2]

24. To me, those are two entirely different situations.

I gladly cover for ill co-workers and have assisted disabled co-workers when I had them and they requested my assistance.

I can relate to the OP however. My husband used to work in a large governmental agency as a contractor and he'd sometimes have half the crew of government employees out at critical times with soccer games or dance recitals.

The folks who were the worst offenders were the fastest to complain to HR if they were passed over for raises or promotions.

Now I don't have trouble with folks being good parents. It should be encouraged IMO, but I don't think it's fair that the folks that cover and actually keep the work going don't get the rewards for their dedication and the promotions that the extra time and experience should put them at the top of the list.

As an employer now myself, I supported my employees that considered their families their first priority, but the promotions went to the people who dedicated themselves to our company.

[Don Claybrook]

57. Come again?

As an employer now myself, I supported my employees that considered their families their first priority, but the promotions went to the people who dedicated themselves to our company.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I just wanted to let you know: my family ALWAYS comes first. Because of this, I'm a very hard worker, and I'm considered a valuable employee. See where I'm going with this? My family is so important to me that I'll work all kinds of strange hours to be successful at work.

But by the same token, I don't have any problem taking off early to pick up a child from school and whatnot. I usually don't need coverage (I try to schedule around meetings and other time-sensitive events), but if I do, my coworkers are happy to oblige. And I'm happy to oblige them (neither has kids at home--one never had any, the other has grown kids). My single co-worker has lots of things he needs to do outside of work, and I cover him. It all works, there's no animosity, and the job gets done.

My primary reason for responding to your post instead of the OP was because I was wondering if you really thought work is more important than family.

Thanks.

[salin]

104. Not the OP - but.. my only concern

is that of late I have been taken advantage by multiple people. When suddenly it is cool for person a AND b to leave early for kids.. it became cool for persons c and d to do so as well... but the front still had to be covered - and now - due to quick departures out the side - there are only one or two people who were getting stuck with all sorts of inequitable hours (none of us are payed hourly - so there is no disincentive).

I have finally spoken up - so that a schedule of sorts has been drawn up. I have no problem trading hours with folks with kids due to various situations. And I fully get, and support emergencies. BUT - when it was suddnely adding 10 or more hours a week to my already long work week... while others were suddenly working 5-10 hours less - I lost my patience. Not a matter of not respecting that family is important - but a matter of wanting respect that my time, is valuable, and I shouldn't be put into the situation of carrying a whole lot more hours simply because co workers have children and I do not. Is that unreasonable?

Personally I think that I let myself be taken advantage of - because I allowed myself to be, that is for a long time I took all of the "kids" reasons for leaving early to heart... "no problem" - until a bulk of folks starting just acting (leaving) without explanation - so that they wouldn't be left holding the fort for the last couple of hours ("after hours" for main business, but while the business is still open).

Things seem to be getting a little better - but it is akward - when I raise the issue it is as if I am trying to make people who have kids feel guilty. No one should feel guilty for having kids. At the same time - because of that I didn't raise it, even as the problem escalated - because I felt guilty raising it. Sort of a bad cycle.

I very much appreciate your approach. Sounds like you put your kids first - but do so in an equitable way (trading off time with others.) Hopefully my work is moving in that direction.

[Don Claybrook]

229. Thanks for the reply

Hi, Salin.

If someone added 10 hours to my workweek because they were off doing kid things, I'd be pretty upset also. And no, it's not unreasonable to want equality with co-workers, no matter their family status.

I guess I'm pretty fortunate in my job. It's nominally 8-5, but as in the rest of the IT world, scheduled changes generally happen in the middle of the night. As a result, and barring other appointments, meetings, etc, I can usually leave on short notice to pick up my son from band practice, go to the dentist, and that sort of thing. Also, I carry my own projects, as do my co-workers, so coverage isn't too much of an issue.

Which is all a longwinded way of saying that I really wasn't looking beyond my own personal perspective (Don-o-centrism), and your post and the other reply below, gave me pause for thought, i.e., you have a good point.

How's Bloomington? I've been in Louisville for the last year or so.

[NMDemDist2]

114. you misunderstood my comments I fear. Of course family comes

first, but I reward the people (like you from the sounds of it) that understand a deadline has to be met, hours need to be covered.

I am very generous with flextime for "lifestuff" and bonuses for extra effort. I was commenting on people I've seen that seem to have no commitment to the job except to do just enough to get the paycheck.

I don't discount the difficulty in balancing home and work, but I do understand the OP's position as I have been both a peer and a boss to folks who can't seem to find the balance and don't seem to care that their co-workers have needs outside of work too.

You stated the key in your post "... the job gets done."

[Don Claybrook]

224. Thanks

And I apologize for misunderstanding your post.

Maybe it wouldn't be too far afield to say that,

1) employees who shirk their duties are not to be commended and that,
2) this negligence often takes the form of said employee leaving work for various kids' events.

Not trying to split hairs or play semantic games. I guess I'm postulating that the type of employee who does this sort of thing would find a way to leave work early now and then, regardless of whether they had children or not. That's the theory I'm working on anynow.

Thanks again.

[TalkingDog]

60. Are you saying that people who choose to have children are sick????

and disabled???

I mean I know studies that have shown a 10 point IQ drop for people who become parents, but please, have a little sympathy!!!

Look, non-child bearing couples pay the same taxes for schools, the roads buses drive on, teacher salaries, etc... it's part of the social contract we agreed to. But being asked to pull their weight at work too...that gets to be a bit much.

Agree with earlier poster...just don't do their work and work up the chain of command if you have to complain.

[TankLV]

109. I'd sure a hell would be - especially if they got the same or MORE

pay!

It's called FAIRNESS & EQUALITY.

If you can't handle the job as others do, then don't expect us to like saving your asses!

If it's short-term and occasional, fine.

But if it's chronic and a permanent condition, then I suggest they consider retirement or disability leave.

[progressivebydesign]

214. Does having kids make you chronically ill??

just askin'

[UncleSepp]

247. Um, I can't tell if this is snarky or straightforward

I loves ya sweetie, but this is a non sequitur.

[friesianrider]

251. But that's usually beyond an individual's control...

Having kids is a choice.

[politicaholic]

6. You're right. A favor is one thing, being taken advantage is another...

You should put your foot down and plead your case.

I hope you get paid more.

[AlCzervik]

8. i have a kid and i do my job and when i didnt have a kid i don't ever

recall one time being asked "To cover" for a coworker who was also a parent. Sounds like you have a problem with managment. I will say i've worked with plenty of single people that called in sick on friday mornings due to hangovers

[mermaid]

18. I Never Did

if I was sick from a hangover, my attitude was this: I was bending my elbow, I did this to myself...so tough it out and go to work.

I never called off sick because I'd partied too much the night before. Never.

I have, on very rare occasions, played "hooky" and called off for other reasons...maybe I had something really important to do, maybe I just needed a mental health day, or maybe I just needed to recharge my batteries. And I think we've ALL done that.

But never did I call out sick because of a hangover.

[walldude]

9. So don't cover for them..

I have 3 kids and no one needs to ever cover for me. To be honest I find it hard to believe that you do all this extra work because of "parents". What kind of job do you have where you have to cover for slacker parents? Who asked you to cover for them? Why do you do it? It sounds like your problem not the parents. Solve it and get back to fighting the real bad guys willya...

[eeyore]

27. I work cooperatively on projects with them

I love them, but they are frustrating as hell. I can't blame them for prioritizing their kids over work, but when we are working on presentations together and they bail out I am the one who ends up doing the work. How do you tell someone that taking care of their suddenly sick child is less important than the job at hand?

They aren't slackers, they are overworked and run down.

I love them but it's killing me.

[Lars39]

78. You're blaming your co workers for prioritizing their sick kids

ahead of a job?
Instead of blaming the co workers, you need to be examining how the company treats ALL of its workers.

[sam sarrha]

10. I did the most Noble for Country and environment... Vasectomy..

[mermaid]

11. I Don't Think You're An A-Hole...I Think THEY Are!!

For EXPECTING you...not asking but EXPECTING you to cover for them so they can do whatever for their kids. I agree with you. Sex is a choice, parenthood is a choice. And there's enough ways to PREVENT parenthood if one does not want to be a parent.

Then again, I'm one of the no-kid folks myself, so I might be biased in my opinion....but, hey...far as I am concerned, there's plenty of shit I'D like to do...and get out of work early to do...but, just because it doesn't involve a kid...or my kid...doesn't mean I shouldn't damn well be able to do it, too.

Notice the a-holes who are doing this are the ones who scream about others getting "special rights?"

[fishnfla]

12. It takes a village

eom

[Igel]

43. The village seems to have jumped ship. n/t

[Scout]

62. yeah, and if I'm already "living in the village" with my siblings,

my nieces and nephews, etc. then maybe I don't feel I need to compensate for people I work with too.

Just because one is child free, does not mean they have no life or no participation with any children, ever.

[salin]

107. just as long as we don't kill the village

*speaking as one who recognizes that until recently she has let her self be taken advantage of - to the tune of ten hours a week or so - venting her fatigue....*

[fishnfla]

119. parenting is a 24/7 job and you cant clock out nt

[salin]

132. No question about that

but I didn't sign on for that job... why should I suddenly take on 10-20 hours at work more, because others did sign on. We are all on salary so there is no plus or minus in pay.

I do not bemoan emergencies - or events with kids. I recognize those are important.

But when suddenly I was one of 2 people covering every day for a staff of 18... because it became the culture to "leave early for the kids"... so that every day - due to no choice of my own I was working 2 or more hours longer daily ... there has to be a place of equilibrium.

No colleague will ever say that I have begrudged them covering for a kid event or an emergency. But my current colleagues would probably admit that until I pushed for a "late schedule" (that folks could sign up for - and thus work their events around) - that they were taking advantage of me and one or two other folks.

Frankly pushing my hours from 50-60 to 60-70 did them no service in the long run - as many depend upon my work, and it deteriorate (quality wise) when I am perpetually exhausted.

[Harry S Truman]

14. Neighborhood kids come over at Halloween

...we just tell them we already gave them candy by paying our fucking SCHOOL TAXES!!

[mermaid]

25. Amen To That!!

Pisses me off, no end! I have no kids, I do not use the public school system, yet my neighbors breed like bunny rabbits (they have six school-age kids) and I have to pick up part of their tab. What sort of horse shit is that??

And the neighbors I mention WOULD have SEVEN school-age kids except for a miscarriage.

And they can stay on their OWN DAMN YARD, too, while they are at it!

[SharonAnn]

83. Since their children may be our health care workers in our old age,

I prefer to have them educated so that they can read the prescription bottle, the doctor's instructions, etc.

Or, they may be in any one of many positions that we depend on and I want them to do it well.

Then, of course, when they're working they're paying Social Security and Medicare taxes which will help support us and provide for our health care in our old age.

Then, of course, other people paid for our schools when I was school-aged.

I've never had children but I don't think I'm being ripped off by paying for children's education. It's part of our society, part of our inter-generational obligations, and it's Christian.

[misanthrope]

174. Agreed...

...scrimping on education, to me, has to do with insuring the vitality of the society-at-large. I've never bitched about paying taxes and don't intend to start because I see the necessity for them and reap the benefits of them. Paying for education is about helping those who are already here, not facilitating the birth rate. In fact, it's just the opposite as the more educated someone is, the less children they tend to have.

[militaryWife]

52. Home ownership is a choice too

and you knew that you would have to pay property taxes when you bought your home. And furthermore, you reap the societal benefits of a well educated children/society. They will be filling your meds, and fixing your vehicles while you continue to bitch about the "breeders". I hope to gawd this thread is a joke, because it is selfish and short-sighted, at best.

:thumbsdown:

mw

[Matariki]

56. having 6 or 7 kids is incredibly selfish and shortsighted n/t

[militaryWife]

94. respectfully,

I don't think that is your call. Your opinion, but not your call.

[Matariki]

103. of course

what else *would* it be? If it were my call we'd have a 'one child' policy.

I don't know if you've noticed but the population has more than doubled in something like one generation. it's not sustainable. it's going to kill all of us. that includes all your precious offspring.

[friesianrider]

255. I agree 100% with you, kineta. nt

[mermaid]

Yes. It Is A Choice. One That I Haven't Taken On

But...do you think for a minute that just because I rent, I don't pay property and school taxes?

OK, maybe not directly, I don't cut a check to the county tax commissioner...but you don't think my landlady is biting the bullet on this, do you? guarantee you it is a part of my rent, and so I am still paying...and for someone else's damn kids.

I just think too many people use their kids as an excuse to not work extra, and that is why it pisses me off. A genuine emeregency is one thing. A school play, a soccer game...THAT IS NOT A FUCKING EMERGENCY.

Do your own damn work. Schedule accoringly.

What pisses ME off ids that we childless folk are expected to make all the sacrifices, while you parents get all the rewards of not having to work lonnger and harder hours...you get to do more of the things you WANT to do, while us childless folks are stuck in the office covering for you. And that is bullshit.

[SharonAnn]

86. Perhaps you could set your "boundaries" on this issue. I maintain it's

up to you. As an advice columnist used to say "No one can take advantage of you if you don't let them do it."

[friesianrider]

256. You've got my support, mermaid.

Your last paragraph says it all...I couldn't agree with you more.

[Telly Savalas]

72. Not a joke, see post #27.

The original poster has legitimate grievances with their work situation, and isn't anti-child. That person has a very mature attitude, but is justifiably venting.

Some people however willfully choose to ignore the externalities involved in the economics of raising the next generation.

Edited to add: Welcome to DU! :hi:

[salin]

111. Agreed

while I bitch and moan elsewhere, because I have let myself be taken advantage of (I have put in MANY extra hours weekly for months for parents who can't work after a certain time)... I do not resent my property taxes to schools - it is very much a public good to have a well educated society. I also recogonize that my problems right now - have more to do with having been a pushover, than really a parent/vs./single thing. As I finally got past my guilt for raising the issue - folks (with their heads a little bent low) have been cool to set up a schedule that is much more equitable. And I have always and still will be supportive of kid emergenicies and kid events. Who can forget how great it was to have one's parents at one's big events?

[mermaid]

129. Ah, But There's The Rub....

..."I do not resent my property taxes to schools - it is very much a public good to have a well educated society."

We DON'T!! and our schools are forever lowering the bar, and we are forever dumbing down our society and our schools. and for this I pay taxes?!?!

Standardized tests prove nothing except that a kid can be trained to barf up an answer on demand. But it does NOT demostrate that they can apply critical thinking, and use the education they get to solve other problems.

I can train little Johnny to always barf up 4 when I ask him what two plus two is. Does that mean Johnny can figure out that three plus three is six?

That's my point.

Our school taxes are paying for garbage! Garbage education. All the schools seem to be now are places where we use a cookie-cutter to stamp out little employees, who are just barely smart enough to do whatever menial job we want them to do in later life...but NOT smart enough to apply critical thinking and get ahead.

If we had QUALITY public schools, and QUALITY public education, I might feel different about the taxes.

[mcar]

143. Amen to this

I cannot believe how nasty, spiteful and mean this thread is. The OP is letting him/her self be used by co-workers, but it's the fault of everyone who has children. And, I find it hard to believe that it's a bunch of co-workers who keep doing this to him/her.

Some of the other posters sound like a bunch of old codgers whining about having to pay school taxes even though their kids are grown; except of course it's "I don't have kids so why do I have to pay school taxes?"

Geez, people, grow up. You live in a society. Your taxes pay for children's education and the elderly's health care and social security. One day, my children will be paying for your grandchildren's educations and your healthcare and social security.

Aren't we supposed to be Democrats here? This thread is sounding like a Wall Street Journal whine fest.

[neverforget]

208. No kidding and an AMEN to that!

[funflower]

262. Welcome to DU, militaryWife!

:hi:

[FuzzyDicePHL]

92. ROFL

Your post made my day.

[friesianrider]

253. Ha!!!

Classic...thanks for the much-needed laugh tonight ;)

[Matariki]

15. i'm thinking of framing a photo of my nephew when he was little,

putting it on my desk, claiming he's my son 'Jesus', and using that as an excuse to leave on time - or early if I want. And get some sick days. And so forth.

My boyfriend wanted to take vacation time and he figured he'd get less flak if he claimed he had to attend a friend's 'wedding' in Prague, than telling the truth - that he just wanted a vacation.

Normal People are a Secret Society unto themselves...

[Devlzown]

31. That's a good idea.

You could say, "he's my little miracle so I named him Jesus."

[Matariki]

49. he's my Salvation from Overtime

that's why i named him Jesus ;-)

[shanti]

197. shoot, you can always

claim your parents! i have a coworker that is continually having to take "mama to the doctor". never mind that her mother LIVES with her sister, who can take her to the doctor anytime. she also stays home if her granddaughter is sick. never mind that her daughter is home with her granddaughter. it's just an excuse to take time off.

i have a teen son, but manage to arrange his schedule so that it doesn't conflict with the office coverage. however, i understand that when kids are younger, it's more unpredictable.

anyway, my two cents.

[greatauntoftriplets]

17. I am sick of covering for my coworkers who are a-holes....

and spend half their time out of the office doing the gods only know what. But they get away with it because they suck up to the boss.

[eeyore]

32. I may be an a-hole....

But I'm not one of those a-holes. I do my work and then some.

I love kids. I just don't have any of my own. Maybe I will someday, maybe I won't.

[greatauntoftriplets]

38. I know you're not an a-hole...

My point was that there is always someone at work who is taking advantage, and it is only natural that they piss us workers off.

[funflower]

268. I hope you have quintuplets.

Then come talk to me when you've been up all night with barfing, feverish babies for three nights running and your child-free coworkers are bitching about how you're costing them their blessed personal time.

[Cleita]

19. I used to feel that way when I was single.

I was always the one asked to work late or on Saturday because the people with families needed to leave on time to pick up kids from day care or they had to spend the weekends with their kids. I was on salary too, so I didn't get overtime.

[Fight_n_back]

20. Yes you are

but you knew that or you wouldn't have asked.

Those kids will be supporting you in your old age and they don't even know you.

Doing their work for them is a choice. You don't have to do it. You will also be able to work longer hours and thus receive promotions that they don't recieve.

So stop whining and enjoy the fact that you get to sleep in on weekends and that a movie only costs you ten dollars.

[Beaver Tail]

26. You are not an A-Hole

Your kindness is being taken advantage of. It is the responsibility of the parents to ensure their child/children are properly supervised and COMPLETE their work day.

[Lady President]

37. A Choice?

Wow, I want to work where you do.

My manager has 4 kids, and if I don't cover for the parents, I will be fired. It's just that simple. The one time I did mention that the overtime wasn't equally distributed (I'm salary, so no extra pay,) she flat out told me that if I ever went to HR or over her head to complain she would fire me. I don't make enough money to survive long without work, and definitely not enough to hire an attorney for a wrongfully discharge claim.

[Fight_n_back]

59. You must work in El Salvador

because that is one of the most rediculous things I have ever heard an American worker say.

If you work someplace that even has an HR departnment then it is a big enough placce to be scared shitless about any manager saying something so stupid as "if you complain I will fire you" Most places would reprimand a manager for saying anything like that.

Have you ever heard of complaining anonmously?

Of course, you could always send an email from your managers desk where they offer to fellate the owner of the company. That would be more effective than complaining anyway and it would be untraceable.

[Lady President]

75. Close

I live in Ohio.... Seriously, our job market is so bad that I don't have the luxury of risking getting fired.

There is no way to complain anonymously. The company is large enough that you need to give your i.d. before you can talk to an actual person. And, it would be obvious who the complainer was if I slipped a note under the HR dep't door. She is very different with everyone else because they have kids and they love her. Basically, she wants to come and go as she pleases, so she has to let the other parents do the same.

I know I need a new job, but I have huge responsibilities of my own right now and I have to try to deal with this behavior.

I do like the computer idea.... :)

[saracat]

267. If we had population control and people were responsible

we wouldn't need these kids to support us! I think married people who choose NOT to reproduce ought to be given credit for NOT adding to the planets burdens!

[funflower]

269. Agreed. But that doesn't mean they have no responsibilty to their

fellow human beings, young or old.

"I won't give up anything that is MINE, MINE, MINE to help somebody else" is freeper talk.

[Matariki]

270. do you understand the difference between giving and taking

giving to someone willingly as opposed to someone who feels entitled to take from another?

and demanding that someone give is taking

[funflower]

274. I think it's the libertarian website you're looking for.

All taxation is robbery. I won't pay for somebody else's damned medicine and all that.

Gee. Come to think of it, I get taxed from here to Christmas to pay for the public education of other people's kids, other people's medicine (I almost never need the stuff), subsidized housing....

I think I should only be burdened for things I want to be burdened for - like jet skis and Vespas and ipods.

[saracat]

277. But the responsibility one takes ought to be by choice!

I think I have an obligation to pay my taxes to provide education and other benefits in society. I think I have a personal obligation to help fellow creatures in need. But I don't have an obligation to give my time to those to whom I do not wish to give it!
I will dedicate time to that which I think is valuable and that is my "choice". Others have the right to make their own choices. It may be I don't want to work late because your child has a soccer game.But I may want to work late to make up time I spend volunteering at an animal shelter or retirement home! I don't consider that "freeper talk' I consider my view supporting another aspect of "choice".

[Lady President]

21. This is my biggest working annoyance

Everyone who works in my area has kids but me, and it makes me crazy how I'm treated. It's a given that I can stay late to make up for the time the rest of the people have to tend to ear aches, plays, ball games, etc. If I want to go home and watch TV after putting in my 8 hrs. that should be my business. I don't want to hear that I can work late because I don't have any responsibilities at home. Hey, if you can't handle all your responsibilities, I suggest birth control-- it works for me.

I'll be an insensitive jackass too.... I don't see why being a working parent is all that tough. After all, the people at my job raise their kids full time and let me do their work whenever it's inconvenient for them.

At least I know there is one other person in the world as ticked about this issue as I am.

[ismnotwasm]

22. Maybe it depends on where you work

Somebody has to breed, to continue to species. But with most work places not ready to be part of that village it takes to raise a kid, the childless probably do have to pick up the slack. Just Another way of dividing people.

[cynatnite]

23. Accidents do happen

I do understand your frustration, but accidents do happen. The old saying of 'what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas' is a bunch of crap. We came back with our little boy and didn't even know it. Our daughters were 15 and ten at the time. The doctors said our baby making days were over due to my wild and crazy reproductive system. Go figure :eyes:

Maybe it does feel that way, but please look at the individual circumstances of each person who has to pick up their kid for doctor's appointment or whatever the case may be. Some are divorced and supporting kids on their own. Some families have to have two incomes to survive.

Choice or not, childcare is expensive. I've seen it run into several hundred dollars per week. And with kids, the unexpected does happen. People are trying to balance home life and work life all at once.

I don't know anything about the specifics of your job or why you are doing other people's work because of things happening which pulls them away. All I ask is that to not be so quick to pass judgment on people who work and have kids.

[mermaid]

36. Well, It Pisses ME Off That

Parents assume that childless co-workers have no home life! That we have no responisibilities or things to do at home.

We still have to cook, clean, and do other things around the house...and quite frankly, why isn't it okay if we DO just wanna go home on time and SIT ON OUR ASSES DOING NOTHING???

Don't we have that right?

Sorry, but I sold the company EIGHT hours of my life every day...I didn't sell them my whole life to take when it suits them...or some parent with a kid who has an earache. Your problem, parent...not mine. Don't make it mine.

Screw you, you can do your work from home if you need to. Take it home with you and do it. Don't make me do YOUR work...and mine...and then go home to do my own damned housework, just because you have kids and I don't.

The way I see it...you got kids? Great. You got built-in, live-in slaves to do a lot of your cooking and cleaning FOR you. It's called CHORES. Anyone else remember chores? We childless folks have no one we can assign chores TO. Y'all parents DO.

[fishnfla]

41. "Screw you" Got it, kids are just" live-in slaves"

Birth control. Get. Use.

For the love of crap, dont ever reproduce.

[mermaid]

55. Don't Worry...

I CAN'T reproduce. It isn't physically possible in my case. Sterile from birth, thank you very much.

And sick and damn tired of picking up the load for everyone else who damn well CAN and DO have kids.

So maybe I'm a little bitter and resentful, but, can you blame me?

The point is...though...you have kids - therefore, you have people around who can HELP YOU with maintaining your household. It's called chores, and you can delegate them out. Me, I got no one but me to do it all!

[cynatnite]

63. It's not about helping me maintain the house

I teach my children responsibility. I teach my children not to take out their frustrations on people who don't deserve it. I teach my children to respect other people's choices and not to pass judgment.

I don't know if I can blame you for your resentment and bitterness. I don't know you.

[mermaid]

77. Likewise, I Don't Know You

And if you are taking my words as personal...I'm sorry.

My point is...a lot of parents USE their kids as an all-purpose excuse for getting out of doing extra at work...and stick us childless folks with all the extra. And it isn't fair.

I don't know you persoanlly, but, from my experience, a lot of these folks ARE users...and they use their kids as a convenient excuse.

and THAT is what pisses me off. The fact that I KNOW they are full of shit, but I can't call them out on it, because if I do, suddenly I'M the asshole. I'm the "child-hater."

Truth be known, I love kids. Wish I could have some. But I can't. I made my own accomodations with that a long time ago...and I have dogs...I consider THEM to be my "kids." They are the only kids I have, and the only ones I ever WILL be able to have.

I've nothing against kids or parents. My problem is with those who USE their kids as an all-purpose excuse to always get out of overtime...weekend work...always get prioritized for vacation requests, etc, etc, etc.

THAT is what pisses me off.

[shanti]

205. dogs....

ok, what about the people who take friggin time off for their animals?? i work with a woman who has about a million animals (hubby is retired and at home too) and is constantly having to nurse one or the other to health, take them to the vet, etc. she even brings them into the office!

matter of fact, in almost every job i've ever had, there's been someone like this, no kids, mucho pets.

now what?

[friesianrider]

258. Well since you clearly don't have a problem with...

people who take off for kids, what's your beef with people with animals? Sheesh. At least this person is helping a creature in need to survive - do parents ditch work early to see their brat's soccer game because it is essential to the survival of the kid?

Please.

[margaritamama]

84. Extra chores

Kids create extra chores and not intended to be slaves!

[mermaid]

96. I Was A De-Facto Slave When I Was A Kid

I had PLENTY of chores. And bet your ass they had to be DONE before I got to do anything I wanted to do!

Your kids need to take on some chores. They help create the mess, they can learn to help clean up after it.

[margaritamama]

105. Why don't you adopt some slaves?

My kids have plenty of responsibilities but I'll tell you this they ain't no slaves or an excuse.

Hard for those under 3 to do the laundry!
:shrug:

[cynatnite]

Thanks for painting parents with such a wide brush

and making assumptions about those who do have kids. Thanks for making us the bad guys because we have kids and you don't.

For the record, I NEVER pretended to know anyone's private life as to what they do and don't do.

Maybe you need a new job if you feel that you've been taken advantage of because you don't have kids.

[Book Lover]

74. Get off the cross, Mary. Someone needs the wood.

I'm going to presume you know you are painting with a broad brush, so I won't take the "Parents assume childless co-workers have no home life" line seriously. But compared to parents, no, you don't have as much necessary housework to do, and yes, you do have more spare time. I'm not saying that you should spend it doing my job, because that's not right (and because when I have to leave work early due to my child, I take my work home) but back off. Did no one give your parents any slack when they raised you? Or was that in fact the case, and now you're bitter than Mom and Dad couldn't make it to the school play?

And if you don't like paying property taxes for public schools, get elected to your school board and do something about it.

[mermaid]

85. Hey, I BOUGHT That wood From GWB's Company!!

"...But compared to parents, no, you don't have as much necessary housework to do, and yes, you do have more spare time."

Not true. You have kids who can HELP you with your housework. It's called giving out chores! I have no one to give chores out TO!

so I doubt seriously I have more spare time than you...unless of course, you are a poor delegator. Delegate some of that extra housework to those who are creating it.

I'm sure you are old enough to remember what CHORES are. I just think a lot of today's kids DON'T know what chores are.

And I think a LOT of parents use their kids as an all-purpose excuse to get out of working late, working overtime, working weekends, holidays...and, of course...they use the kids as a way to get prioritized vacation requests at times when maybe us childless folks would like to take vacations, too.

[Book Lover]

102. My child is 2

What chores do you suggest I delegate to him; changing the car oil maybe? Or how about doing the laundry, yeah, that'd be smart. You have less laundry to do than I, less cooking to do than I, fewer messes to clean up, fewer doctor's appointments to meet, less paperwork and research than I (or did you suspect parent magically know what to buy, where to send kids to school, what movies and books are child-safe, etc). You also don't have someone you have to teach how to live. Or did you learn your social skills, etc, from the aether? Somehow I suspect you had a parent or two around to help you out with that.

As for the workplace, get proactive. If your co-workers are lying about time off, then call them on it. Dial in your vacation time earlier than they do.

[mermaid]

115. I Did Get Pro-Active. And Got Fired For It!!

I know co-workers were LYING about things. and I damn well DID put in for my vacation before them. but i'd always get bumped in their favor, because they had kids and I didn't.

When this happened, I was living in Texas, and had my mom up here, a widow, living all alone. Anyone ever stop to think maybe SHE would like to see one of her kids on a holiday? Maybe I would have liked to go out of town to see her, being as she had no local family?

That's what pisses me off...the way it is ASSUMED that, because we are childless, we have no life outside of work, and so are EXPECTED to fill in for all the breeders.

And if we open up about it...or call out a lying co-worker, we are the assholes...and then the rest of them gang up on you to make sure you get fired. Goddamn office cliques, anyway. i'm looking for a job that ISN'T in an office for once. Becuase i'm sick and tired of the bullshit.

[cynatnite]

123. Any sympathy I had for you just went out the window with this quote:

"and so are EXPECTED to fill in for all the breeders."

It's pretty goddamn fucking offensive when that's what parents are called.

[enigmatic]

125. I have sympathy for her

I guess that cancels you out.

[cynatnite]

130. I'm not a fucking breeder...I'm a parent

Have sympathy for her...I won't.

[enigmatic]

131. Just like the scads of posts calling everyone who agrees w/ the OP..

"Republicans", "Child-Haters" and the like? Right?

[cynatnite]

134. For crying out loud

I took personal offense to 'breeder'.

[enigmatic]

138. And I take personal offense to being called a Republican...

and worse because I feel the same as the OP, and have had to deal w/ this all my working life. So we'll call it even.

[cynatnite]

142. I read back...I never called anyone a republican (rolls eyes) n/t

[enigmatic]

149. But many here have

(rolls eyes)

[mermaid]

151. I Have To Stick Up For Her On This Point

it was FrenchieCat who de-facto called a bunch of us Republicans. See my snide little reply to her.

Wasn't cynatnite who dropped the R-bomb on us.;

[FrenchieCat]

227. I stated that certain phrases and ideals were

freeperlike...and things that most Republicans pushed.

Please find the post where I called you or anyone else a Republican.

"De-facto" is open to interpretation and makes things a little bit convenient for the anger that you have decided to generate.

I'm starting to feel like Senator Durbin....who was accused of calling some folks Nazis...when it really wasn't what he was doing. Oops...better not say that....cause "de-facto" maybe I am again calling some Republicans....or something! :eyes:

[mermaid]

144. Well Pardon Fucking Me

I take personal offense at being taken advantage of by lying co-workers...and then fired when I speak up about it.

so I guess we're even, eh?

[cynatnite]

153. Even? With what?

This isn't some contest. You resent co-workers with kids. You said so and in the example you mentioned earlier, I don't blame you. I just think you went a little too far.

It offended me and I have no idea if it offended others. I'm proud to be a parent. I love my kids and I take great care when raising them. My husband and I both do.

I was not trying to one-up you or be better than you. I look at this as two different opinions from people who live very different lives.

[mermaid]

159. No, You're Taking Me Out Of Context...

I resent co-workers with kids WHO USE THE KIDS AS AN ALL-PURPOSE EXCUSE TO GET OUT OF DOING ANYTHING EXTRA, AND LEAVE ME TO PICK UP THE SLACK!!

If you're gonna quote me, please quote ALL of me...don't just pick and choose the words that suit your agenda.

[cynatnite]

167. I have no agenda and I apologize for not putting it all there n/t

[mermaid]

180. Apology Accepted n/t

[shanti]

206. and again

it's not just parents who do this!!

[FrenchieCat]

233. Sometimes agreeing to disagree

with someone's viewpoint doesn't seem to be enough. You have to apologize too.

Mermaid just went off on me upthread because I objected to the following remarks made....

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
use of the word Breeders
Why should I have to pay taxes to educate someone else's children?
I pulled myself up by my bootstraps, why can't they?

OP asked for opinions, and that's what he got. I don't see the uproar.

I'm starting to feel "Durbin-ed" myself!

[mermaid]

136. Well, It Is What You Are

Not intended to be offensive. Just a fact. You are a breeder, I am not.

If you take offense to that, well, then you have a problem, and are reading something into my words that I didn't put there.

I just stated a simple biological fact. And you're going off the wall with it.

I think you owe me an apology.

[cynatnite]

140. A cow breeds...rabbits breed...animals fucking breed!

You called parents breeders. I even quoted you directly.

No apology coming. You'll be waiting a hell of a long time.

[enigmatic]

145. I hate to break this to you

But human beings are animals as well. The only difference we have from the 4 legged variety is the ability to reason.

[mermaid]

147. And I Suppose Theyt Do It Differently Than Humans Do?

Humans procreate by parthenogenesis?

[friesianrider]

259. Parents ARE breeders.

That is what reproduction is, is it not? Doesn't have to be derogatory...so chill out.

And BTW, animals parent their young too. Teach them things, show tenderness and love. Humans who have kids are breeders. That's what reproduction is.

And FYI, humans ARE animals, darling.

[MissB]

179. I've been around long enough to know that the term "breeder"

when applied to human parents, is meant in an offensive way. There are message boards where those that are childless by choice use the term "breeder" in an offensive way.

Such a term doesn't belong to a progressive board where parents and people who are childless by choice mingle.

It isn't a kind description - it is quite offensive.

[shanti]

207. 'breeder' is a pejorative term

and it IS offensive to us parents.

[Matariki]

232. that's right - 6.4 billion and counting.

if that's not breeding, what is?

http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/popclockw

[Don Claybrook]

241. Do you really care to start naming people based on function?

It's gone over so wonderfully when people start to name others based on some function they perform.

Do you remember N*****-Lover? How about homosexuals? Do you suppose we should call them cocksuckers here on DU? Is FatAss an acceptable nickname to you? Living with that much venom wastes a great deal of energy, you know. Does the FatAss have other qualities? Why not call her The Painter or The Accountant? How about that cocksucker? Why not call him a gifted writer instead, or a great conversationalist?

You shouldn't go down this name-calling road. It's bad business, and you very well know that it is. Have whatever opionion you want about the original issue, but back away from the blanket cruelty and viciousness.

A final thought for you, and I suspect you may already be aware of this, even if you cannot fully understand it: when you make these sweeping statements about "parents", or worse, "breeders", you've gone straight for the most sacred part of any parents' lives, their children. There's nothing more precious, nothing more important. Again, this is not something you're capable of understanding, since you're not a parent. When you broadly attack the whole notion of having children, parents are understandably going to be defensive, most especially when the attack is coming from someone who hasn't a single clue what being a parent is about, what it's like to have kids, the joys and the difficulties. In short, you're extremely underqualified when it comes to condescending to those who have chosen to have children.

[BluGrl]

165. I'll be sure to relay your advice to....

my 15 month old. Or maybe I should send her over to YOUR house to help you with all the things you need done? I'm sure you'd find that doing those things you need getting done will go by so much quicker with her "helping" you along the way. LOL

I was childless for 28 years and life was so simple then. Although it is sometimes hard to remember those times as they seem so insignificant. It's hard to explain to someone that isn't a parent.

[friesianrider]

257. You're right again...

There is definitely an assumption that childless people have no lives or other commitments - we are just free to take on the work of the company because someone's kid needs a kleenex or something.

If I were you, I;d ask a co-worker to cover for you one day because you want to go to a party or go to an early movie with your SO. If they can respect my choices in life to remain childless, I suppose I would then be able torespect their choices.

[funflower]

263. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[eeyore]

44. I love them and their kids.

We even socialize together. But thanks to the way our society has developed, every parent I know is about to lose it at every turn. I'm not angry with them, but I am royally pissed at our society.

[AlCzervik]

54. Since your such good friends with them have you discuseed this

issue with them? And have you talked to managment?

[HarrietBrown]

28. Boy, you hit a nerve with me--I just sent an email about this out to

some friends. I get sick of it--I have a staff member who always needs time off for her kids' concerts, soccer games, "emergencies." My husband also gets stuck at work because one of his staff always has to leave for his kid's softball games. I'm all for "it takes a village" but I get real tired of losing time with my husband, my mom, my nieces and nephews because someone needs special hours to suit his/her kids' schedules. Plus, at my place, work doesn't get done in a timely fashion and quality is affected because her schedule changes every time one summer camp ends and another begins--it's hard to schedule work. I should put my foot down, because it's not fair to me or to the other "child-free" woman we work with, but it's hard for me not to put kids first. It's something I am going to try to figure out this summer--how to even things out, get the kids taken care of, and stop being resentful everytime I have to put my work aside to meet one of her deadlines.

[Gman]

29. You're beyond feeling like an asshole

and are approaching being one. However, the problem is that you just can't comprehend what it means to have kids and a family. Nothing is more important, not even work.

I told my daughter and son-in-law the morning my daughter had labor induced that even that morning, she couldn't conceive how her life would change once that baby was born. The moment my daughter had my granddaughter in her arms after giving birth, she and my son-in-law knew immediately what I was talking about. Only after many years, and the kids are grown and gone will your life get back to something resembling what it was before the kids. And even then, you're just too damn old to be in the bars all night on a work night or party like you used to party.

Until you have a child, there is literally no way you can comprehend what it means to have kids. Hopefully, onoe day you will have kids that you will love and treasure as these people do. Your time will come too and only then will you understand.

So while I know why you feel this way, there's no way I, or anyone else can explain it to you. You have to experience having kids to understand.

[Minstrel Boy]

192. "Nothing is more important, not even work."

:toast:

Nothing. Not even your own life.

[spacelady]

201. Oh come on with this "you don't know the blessings of children" excuse

which is all it is. First af all, I am a parent. I made that choice, I am glad to have had the choice. When one chooses, one has to be prepared to take on that responsibility WITHOUT imposing on others who have their OWN lives to live and their OWN responsibilities. Further, there are plenty of humans inhabiting the planet, so don't feel obligated to add to the gene pool.

[saracat]

264. But why should it be more important to me? I don't understand why parents

think their children should be that important to me as well. They are "your" children.And your going to their concert or Doctor's appointment shouldn't have to be a crisis for me. I shouldn't have to be interested in your children and give up my time for your choices! That is the problem in a nutshell.
I made a choice not to have children because I don't want to be bothered by those things you want to be involved with. I don't want to work longer or take my vacations at inconvenient times in order to make it easier for people with children! I think I am entitled to live as I choose and not have to make exceptions for other peoples choices!
My husband, who was working abroad, couldn't even be allowed time off from work when my Father was hospitalized and subsequently died, but his co-worker was allowed to come home because his wife was pregnant!
I agree with the original poster.Many people who are parents do believe their rights supersede those of the childless, an I am tired of those people.
My parents both worked when I was growing up and neither were cut any slack for being a parent.It is only recently that this "parent entitlement " phenomena has occurred.Many parents don't expect special treatment . It is a shame that the self absorbed few are allowed to paint show a selfish picture of the working parent!

[funflower]

272. So what do you propose?

When a baby is sick or a child is injured at school?

Should all mothers quit their jobs and stay home so that no adult ever need be inconvenienced? Because without a workplace that recognizes the needs of children, there can be no equality for women in the workplace.

Alert James Dobson. He'll be delighted to hear that so many DUers agree with him!

[Matariki]

273. Funflower - you're sort of on the right track

we ALL need to work less. That's the real issue, imo.

but insisting that other people carry the load for someone else just because they wanted the 'joy of parenthood' - that's going down the wrong track.

[funflower]

275. The real problem is a workplace that was designed for the man in the

gray flannel suit (who had Donna Reed at home to take care of the kids).

That's not reality today, though, and it sure ain't equality.

What we need is a system that is fair, yet flexible, so that parents can meet their children's needs (because they are NEEDS) and everyone else can do whatever they need to do and no one feels taken advantage of all the time.

[saracat]

276. I am not saying that one should NEVER be inconvenienced but that

the needs of the childless be given equal importance. I don't consider, in the example I gave, my husband's co-workers wife's pregnancy more important than my Dad's death!
And I consider the example of the working mother somewhat sexist! My mother was a lawyer and if I was sick, she still had to go to court! She had to find a sitter! She couldn't cancel or have another attorney try the case for her. My Dad was also an attorney and he couldn't stay home either. For either of them to stay home would be unprofessional.I guess I simply don't relate to the solution to a child's being sick or hurt being determined by the workplace.A decision to have a child is a personal one, and solutions to childcare are also personal, and not the domain of work associates.

[funflower]

279. I'm a lawyer, and if my kid is sick, I will do everything I can to be home

with them, professionalism be damned. The only reason this is a problem is that too many judges and others in the legal system and the rest of the biz world operate under the assumption that all lawyers are men with stay-at-home wives to take care of such things and that women professionals should fit into that stereotype or give it up and go home. Lawyers get setovers for all kinds of reasons. Why should a child's need be less important than the myriad other reasons I've heard for setover requests (one of the most common being "we're not prepared, Your Honor"). When more judges and executives are mothers, the "sick kid setover" and the "barfing baby phone conference" will become commonplace.

[FrenchieCat]

30. Yes, you are an asshole

cause in real life, it ain't always about you.

It's called "sacrificing for the greater good of the society".

It's not always pleasant; hence the use of the word 'sacrifice'.

Think of it as good will, positive Karma, or just plain cheerfully giving. You are doing others a favor.....and a favor is usually something that's gonna take you out of your way.

If it's too easy, then it's no favor.

Just pat yourself on the back now and then....and understand that a "good" person is hard to find. It will make you a rare gem, even in your eyes! That can only be good for your soul.

Who knows, one day you may need some kind of help too.....

[mermaid]

45. The Problem Is

I don't BELIEVE them when they make an excuse about it having something to do with their kids. I think they just wanna get out early, and not do any work, and they use the kid as an excuse to get out of doing any extra work...and shove it all off on those who don't have that handy-dandy excuse of a kid.

Oh, sure, sometimes it's legit...but I bet more often than not it's just a bullshit excuse to get out of doing extra.

[Ikonoklast]

51. I respectfully disagree

I am the single father of three, and have raised them by myself on an hourly wage since they were in grade school. Not once ever did I leave work early and stiff my fellow co-workers with my parenting obligations. I worked around my kids schedule for school functions, sports, what have you, and never expected anyone else to pick up the slack created by my parenting duties. These people are users, plain and simple. Whenever one of them decides that their personal family time is to be balanced on your back, grab the golf clubs and walk out the door with them.

[mermaid]

70. Kudos To You!!

See, that's what I'm talking about. I KNOW the ones who do this sort of shit are USERS...because YOU manage to schedule around your kids, as a single dad just fine!

Thank you for sticking up for childless workers everywhere, and putting these users in their place!

[HarrietBrown]

81. My mom did the same with 4 kids--and we didn't suffer. In fact, we

learned responsibility by watching her handle things effectively. Congrats to you--your kids are lucky!

[FrenchieCat]

101. You almost sound like one of those

Get rid of welfare cause "the people that are on welfare are all lazy" type of fellows.

What you did in your life is commendable.....but all is not about because you did it, so can everyone else.

Not everyone's life is exactly the same. You are judging others based on nothing but your own experiences. Broad brush statements are easy, but usually not very accurate. How can you think that you know all of what's up and what everyone's motives are? Are you that superior?

That's why conservatives want to dismantle Social Security, and not even provide others with a pot to piss in! Your rational is the exact type of example they want to use.

If life was that simple, we'd all be heroes, just like you.

[Ikonoklast]

127. That was very condescending of you.

My ex-wife was diagnosed as a depressive delusional schizophrenic. She lost touch with reality and was unable to take care of herself, let alone three little kids. I used just about every available social service agency, both public and private, for five years trying to save our family. We were devastated emotionally, physically, and monetarily. There was a stretch when I worked a full-time and two part-time jobs just to save my house and feed and clothe the kids. These people with their lame excuses PISS ME OFF. You want to talk hard times, well I got some stories first-hand, and they are not about shoving my problems onto others. What ever happened to personal responsibility? I am frustrated by those that are so willing to make their lifestyle choices my problem. I know when I am being fucking used, and I sure as hell don't need you and your flawed logic to reach irrational assumptions. Re-read your post; it makes no sense as to the topic I addressed.
I am not a hero; I am a working-class guy that just wants to do the right thing for his family and don't expect anyone else to shoulder my burden.

[FrenchieCat]

150. Yes, "whatever happened to personal responsibility?".....

that what the pubs say should replace social security; personal accounts that we are personally responsible for. If shits happens...so be it.

I just don't think that all cases are the same or are equal. The OP poster most likely knows that.

The "breeder" and "I pay taxes to educate others' kids" lines just turn me off and make me feel like I'm in Freeperville....that's all!

[Ikonoklast]

195. Then why are you dumping on me?

These people are stealing time from their co-workers with the passive agreement by management. The person that picks up the slack without compensation, for whatever reason, is being used; they are contributing labor for free. That is the problem, in simple language.
The OP never made any of those comments that you take offense to.
The matter of personal responsibility is something that is very important to me. I tried to instill in my children that they had better be able to make their own way in the world as no one really cares whether they eat regularly, have a nice home, get a good education, etc. except themselves. Will you shoulder the burden that two kids in college (and a third on the way soon) for me? I thought not. That is not your problem, right? My responsibility, and I would not send the tuition bill to you.

[funflower]

265. So, the championship game is at 5. You get off work at 6. Who wins?

Kid is sick. You're scheduled to work. Who wins?

It's parent-teacher conference day. You're scheduled to work. Who wins?

Much of this problem lies in a system that assumes that workers are men with wives at home to take care of the children's needs, allowing the worker-man to devote himself to meeting the needs of the workplace.

When we realize that workers are parents and parents are workers, we will begin to structure a workplace that does not constantly create these conflicts.

[anitar1]

271. thanks, Ikconopklast . I had a similar experience.

I raised 3 children and it wasn't all a picnic. But I managed without expecting fellow workers to accommodate me. And I do not think I owe it to society to take up the slack for parents unless it is a true emergency. But all through the years I did see certain co-workers who were always taking advantage of others. They shifted their work load whenever they could.I also recognized that childless people had a life. there are always slackers where ever one works.Some are a bit more creative about it.

[Matariki]

73. talk about a selfish attitude of entitlement

just for breeding. ditto on post 29.

[mermaid]

98. A-MEN!!! n/t

[FrenchieCat]

110. It takes a village....

or haven't you heard?

That's part of what liberalism is supposed to be about.....being responsible for your society...and not just for yourself.

Those that earn more but don't believe that they should pay higher taxes to pay for all those social programs - they are usually Republicans

Those who don't think that they should pay taxes to educate the children of others - they are usually Republicans.

Those who thinks that everyone should be able to take care of themselves and don't need any help...they are mostly Republicans.

Those that would make broad brush statements on a whole lot of folks; they are mainly Republicans.

Those who advocate that we don't need universal health care in this country....and those that can't afford it--too bad, cause I can - they are Republicans.

Now, I am sure that the OP author can discern whether the "excuses" are always on the up and up...and based on that, should act when it appears that he/she is being taken advantage of.

But for some posters to assume that it is always the case that there is no bonafide reason that some of these worker might have real issues is shortsighted.

[Matariki]

128. it takes a villiage to raise my kids

[mermaid]

133. Those that would make broad brush statements on a whole lot of folks....

they are mainly Republicans.

Seems like you';re making quite a few broad-brush statements yourself, honey.

Pot? Meet kettle!

Or are you saying you are a Republican?

[FrenchieCat]

160. I'm saying that the terminology used by some posters in response

to this op ed...

Thus far:
Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
use of the word Breeders
Why should I have to pay taxes to educate someone else's children?
I pulled myself up by my bootstraps, why can't they?
Calling one one doesn't know "honey"


To me, those statements are freeperlike....that's all I'm sayin'.

[mermaid]

163. So You're Calling Me A Freeper Now??

Don't make me laugh!

Anyone who knows me knows I am the furthest thing from a Freeper you will ever find.

I tend to call ANYONE I am pissed off with "honey." And yes, it is INTENDED to be condescending. Glad you picked up on it.

Because here you are, paiting a lot of US as Republican/Freeper-types...because we are making broad-based statements...and I'm merely pointing out that in so painting us that way, you, YOURSELF, are painting with a broad brush. Which makes you a hypocrite!

Oh, geez, the Emperor has no clothes...how embarraskin...

[FrenchieCat]

182. get excited.....

and I certainly agree with you, Drama can be a good thing!

Embarasked? You shouldn't be? I see a lot of Emperor with no Clothes. Must be "wash" day.

In truth, I feel honored to have "pissed" you off. Does that mean I've done my good deed for the day?

You only got 1/2 of my point. It wasn't about calling names, it was about the disdain that I picked up in some of the voices that I read, and I called it like I perceived it.

So I'll agree to disagree with ya', honey.

Peace. :hi:

[mermaid]

189. Well, Obviously

I pissed you off, too. And I'm just as honored that I pissed you off.

You only got half MY point, too.

So let me spell it out here.

I do not resent parents. I do not resent children. I do not resent legitimate emergencies.

I DO RESENT LYING, SLACKING CO-WORKERS WHO USE THE KIDS AS THE ALL-PURPOSE EXCUSE TO GET THEIR WAY ABOUT ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, AND LEAVE ME HOLDING THE BAG.

I DO RESENT ENDING UP FIRED AFTER I FINALLY GOT THE GUTS TO CALL OUT THE LYING, SLACKING CO-WORKERS.

Understand now that I've made it simple for you?

[FrenchieCat]

196. I never said you did any of those things.....

and you didn't get me pissed. In fact, I find you quite comical at this point!

You're the one shouting in all of your caps!
I'm doing just fine, myself.

I was answering the OP and then a poster by the name of Ikonoklast...then you jumped in all excited, with your hair on fire, denouncing me for calling you a "freeper", etc....(something you interpreted but I did not do).

Look I'll say it in a way so that even you can understand, I don't actually recall responding to you until you called me out.

Here's the first time I had anything to say to you in this here thread....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3915227#3916152

Do you remember now?

So you telling me what you resent and what you don't is, like, your idea. As far as I'm concerned.....it's all good AND bad! Take it or leave it.

Got meds?

[Ikonoklast]

243. I would love to know your personal situation......

.....not that it is any of my business; I will, however, give you a little bit of mine since the insinuation of freeper-like speech. I am blue-collar all the way, joined the (AM&BW Local 427) union and went to work full-time at age seventeen. Served as shop steward and worked for the same family-owned company for over twenty-four years, before it was sold and I went into business for myself. I walked picket lines for labor justice, not just for my own union, but supported other strikers with pickets. I was raised in a family setting that taught us the value of hard work and social justice and never, ever took anything that we bargained for for granted. I carry a withdrawal card and bleed union blue and will support labor until I die, after collecting a union pension. No one ever gave us anything that we didn't bargain for. That anyone in their right mind that knew me would ever think that I am anything but a progressive in thought or deed would be ludicrous.
I accept personal responsibility for my actions; I blame no one for my own mistakes, and I have made more than a few, nor would I ever expect to shoulder the blame for yours. Personal responsibility to me means that I cannot do whatever I feel like doing whatever the consequences, and then let someone else clean up the mess that I made of my life, and then just go do it again knowing that I will not be held personally accountable. I think this is where we mis-understood each other.
Regarding the OP, there are some people in the workplace that will use any and all excuses, even their children, to get someone else to do their job or shirk other employment responsibilities. Management doesn't care who gets the job done, as long as it gets done. They take advantage of their co-workers on a regular, consistent basis as they are being asked to work for free. In our shop, that would be a grievable offense; no one should be forced to labor for no benefit. That is a Republican view; that you owe us.
The issue here is not about social responsibility; it is about people willing to abuse co-workers (for any excuse) with the tacit approval of management for their own benefit. What do you think?

[TankLV]

137. Ya got that right!

"I choose to have kids and they come first. Get used to it!"

Umm - NO!

YOU get used to caring for those damned kids AND taking care of your responsibilities at work - OR STAY HOME AND CARE FOR THOSE KIDS if
you can't handle both! Or find a different job.

But don't expect ME to cover for you!

My, what a self inflated EGO they have there!

Work is work.

Homelife is homelife.

If it's a good company like mine is, trust me - if you are putting in the hours and doing the extra mile, they notice. Mine is reflected in big fat bonuses.

Besides, if it really is a problem, you can always refuse to do it - just say it politely.

The other posters are correct that kids DO come first - they should - but also it should not be by imposing on others.

[salin]

121. Agreed up to a point

Suddenly I found myself working 10 or more hours a week covering for others. Suddenly once the reason for leaving early was "the kids" became a defacto accepted reason - and my 60 hours rose to 70, on a regular basis - when there were four or five people pulling this.. it got a little old. Of course I finally realized that I had to make an issue of it (this isn't about emergencies - in my case - it was about a growing work culture)... because I had let myself be taken advantage of (as in "salin is still here - so I can duck out and leave...")

I have never - in years and years of work minded oovering for events, or emergencies. But, when it suddenly became a daily thing that required me to work a whole lot more hours (all on salary - so noone makes more or less $ for this)... I finally have gotten a little irritable on the point. Hopefully - due to recently having raised the "equitable" issue - we are trying to get a schedule going. Thus the "events" can be worked around - and as I said before unless it gets suspect - I have always been, and always will be - supportive of folks needing to deal with kid situations as they arise.

[spacelady]

203. Oh Phooey, get over yourself already & see above reply n/t

[FrenchieCat]

223. The op asked.....

and I simply responded.
Is that something that I can do, or should I have just STFU? :shrug:

Were all of the answer supposed to say..."no, you're not an asshole", or am I able to speak my mind....without being told to "get over myself?

If I offended anyone, please forgive....although it doesn't really change my opinionn nor my answer.

[mainer]

33. Don't lift a finger. Expect the same in return when you're old.

Those kids are tomorrow's doctors and nurses. Okay, here's the deal. You go ahead and refuse to do a thing for today's kids. And in return, you don't expect or get ANY help from the younger generation when you're old. I think those parents are actually doing YOU a favor. They're raising your future doctor and nurses.

[HarrietBrown]

90. Let's just hope they don't grow up to be doctors and nurses who leave YOU

in the lurch because they had to leave work to get home for their kids' recitals--a result of the work ethic taught by their parents. People who are tired of covering for parents are not child-haters and shouldn't be accused of "not lifting a finger" for today's kids. There are plenty of times that I've had to cancel special days with my nieces and nephews because someone else had to do for their kids.

[HarrietBrown]

91. Let's just hope they don't grow up to be doctors and nurses who leave YOU

in the lurch because they had to leave work to get home for their kids' recitals--a result of the work ethic taught by their parents. People who are tired of covering for parents are not child-haters and shouldn't be accused of "not lifting a finger" for today's kids. There are plenty of times that I've had to cancel special days with my nieces and nephews because someone else had to do for their kids.

[flaminbats]

34. another supporter for single payer...

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/what_is_single_payer.php

Why pay more providing coverage for each worker's child when one payroll tax would cover the entire family?

[Luminous Animal]

35. Oh lord...

Grow up. We all support each other to one extent or another.

Think of it this way... a well loved kid whose parents have the opportunity to attend to their needs is less likely to grow up to break into your house, truss you up, and steal all the fabulous stuff you were able to acquire because you didn't have any kids.

[Sid Demo]

42. So...

Support us people with kids or you will be robbed, trussed up, and lose your hard earned possessions by our kids? Great parents you are.

[Sid Demo]

39. Believe me

If you don't put a stop to it they will run you over.

I don't mind covering for them when their kid is being born or for a real emergency (plays, concerts, school, soccer games don't count), but you better bring it to their attention or to your managers or else it will only get worse.

People with kids....Do you, on a regular basis, have to cover for a person with no kids or a person who is unmarried. Please post your horror stories.

[Catchawave]

40. Make sure you take time off for yourself.....

...I sense burn-out :(

[Bluesplayer]

46. what about the financial aspect?

Employees with families have more dollars paid on their behalf by their employers for health insurance, too. Should there be equity there also?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. Before I was self-employed, I didn't resent the people with kids as much

as supervisors who believed that single people should be available 24/7.

If there was a weekend function for students' parents, faculty with children or even just spouses were allowed to beg off because they needed to spend more time at home, but we single faculty were considered to never need a life outside the college.

Nor was I allowed any excuses for rejecting extra committee assignments or other nonsense that academic administrators like to foist upon faculties. I was single. I didn't need any outside life beyond eight hours of sleep, and maybe not even that.

[Neshanic]

48. No, and I was tired of it too. You are not a jackass.

The weekends that people needed to work were for singles.

[UTUSN]

50. It's the Single People Work Holidays Syndrome

Not just about having kids. And if you're at the same workplace with many of the same people for a longer period of time, it gets to be a pattern. There was this one woman who just HAD to have two weeks at Xmas. She didn't care about OTHER people with kids OR the single people. She had tenure and pretty much dared management to disapprove her leave requests. Every year. For years. And the unspoken, unwritten elephant-in-the-room was that single people ARE selfish and have nothing else to do, probably something nasty, so they might as well take the extra duties.

[kliljedahl]

53. I just told them my dog was as important to me as their kids

I take time off to be with my dog, take her to the vet, take her to the "beautician" etc. etc. I don't take any shit.


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[enigmatic]

58. No, you're not

And don't let any of the sniping by others here let you think different.

In my grunt, my managment caerer and when I owned my own restuarant, I had scores of the same types of problems, too. Some really were apologetic; others didn't care. After one woman who worked for me bullied 2 other single co-workers (who both we're flying across the country to be w/ their families to cover her for Christmas because she just had to take the kids to the local amusement park (anf after telling me she was going to visit her "sick" sister), I had enough, and told her she work the shifts she agreed to do. She called me a "child-hater" and threatened to bad mouth me all over town; I told to go right ahead. She quit that day.

I told the 2 co-workers to go visit their familes, and we managed to work w/o them. They were ni kids and worked harder than anybody else there..

[lateo]

61. No, I felt the same way...

And now that I am a Dad I try my best to make sure that sort of thing doesn't happen.

[ObaMania]

139. Cheers, lateo!

Yours is the smartest post in the entire thread. :toast:

[Igel]

64. They shouldn't take off for optional things.

Dance recitals. Unless you mean they refuse to put in overtime, paid or unpaid. Then the joint presenters or team mates are in a fix because of bad planning.

No kids means when the current crop hit retirement age, they don't retire. Or we rely entirely on immigrants' kids. My mother used to complain about other's kids until I pointed out that she was retired, and it was those kids who'd be making sure the sewer lines didn't get clogged, or the electricity didn't kick out, much less grow food and stock grocery stores. In a few years, she'd still be retired, and those kids would be paying for her social security and medicare. And, when she was older and unable to take care of herself, it was those kids or their kids that would be wiping her ass. Unless she'd prefer they don't, in which case she could wallow in her own crap.

She realized that she was going to depend on the kids she had no use for. My mother may merit the name only in a biological sense, but she knows when her interests are at stake, and she avoids hypocrisy. That's the last she complained about kids, as far as I know.

Then again, there's the long-range argument: if you don't have kids, you've bailed from the evolution game.

[eeyore]

65. Okay...Allow me to clarify a bit.

I love kids. I spent years as a teacher. Were I to have a kid, I would prioritize it too. I just have a problem with how short-sighted parents can be when it comes to the rest of the world.

I work a job where teamwork and equal effort is absolutely crucial to meeting deadlines. When someone leaves, the ones who stay must finish the job.

It's awfully difficult to tell someone to stop choosing their kids over their job.

I believe that our society has an obligation to make it as easy as possible to be a good parent, and right now it's exactly the opposite.

I find it hard to blame parents, because I know that they are doing the best they can.

It really is a no win situation.

[LittleClarkie]

69. See my post

I rather blame the employer, not the parent.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

66. If you do something that makes you feel like an asshole

you are probably right.

This isn't directed at you personally, it's just an observation.

[LittleClarkie]

67. Well, I can understand your frustration

but I wouldn't put that "nobility" stuff on the head of the person who needs to leave to get their child. I don't think they're thinking about how they're sticking it to you. They are rather thinking, "Oh god! Oh god! I have to pick up Timmy, then hit the pharmacy, then the dry cleaners, get home, get dinner ready, oh god oh god!"

I have run into employers however who had an attitude similar to the one you're describing. "You, childless person, you get to work overtime. The married ones can't. You don't have anything planned after work do you? Well, tough. How important could your plans be, you childless shmuck. Now get back to work."

A friend of mine used to complain about the overtime she had to take that was never even asked of the married with children folk. Not fair.

I also hate favoritism. I knew one woman who got fired because she needed an extra 15 minutes to drop her child off at daycare and the boss wouldn't give it to her. She was one of those people who would look you in the eye and tell you what she thought. No game playing. But soon, also no job. The other woman used to sometimes leave early and maybe not even show up the next day, sending everyone an email about how poor precious child had a fever, exactly what the fever was, whether or not she was going to take precious to the doctor, speculating on whether or not she'd be in and so on and so on.

Petty of me I know, but I resented the hell out of how this woman could blithely leave work with no uproar when someone the boss DIDN'T like was held to an entirely different standard to the one she DID like.

So it's the employers who annoy me more than the actual parents, for the most part.

[jaysunb]

68. Your'e not an A-hole

You're a good person that will recieve a reward in heaven...or somewhere. LOL !

Seriously though, it really does take a village -- a very large one--to raise a child. Every member of the community is a parent.

[Heddi]

71. Interesting thread breakdown

Nearly all the people who say you're not an asshole, or that you're right to be frustrated either don't have kids, or worked as a childfree person/couple and had to deal with the things you're talking about.

Nearly all the people who said you are an asshole profess to have kids themselves. Some have even said that one day, maybe you too can learn the TRUE meaning of life by squirting out a few wrigling babes before your gonads shrink into uselesness. Then...and only then...will you truly learn love and responsiblity :eyes:

I hear where you're coming from.


For many years, I worked in advertising--first as a sales assistant, then as an actual sales rep. My husband and I are childfree, and would have it no other way. Unfortunately, we were two of 8 people in the ENTIRE COMPANY OF 300 people that didn't have children.

And yes, people with kids ROUTINELY took advantage of our 'Free' schedule.

Hey, need work done on Saturday...just call Heather or Mark...they don't have kids, they won't mind.

Hey! Something needs to be done past 5pm...I've got to pick up my kids (me too! Oh and me too! Oh I've got a soccer game tonight...sorry! Oh yeah, tonight is PTA or something...) so Heather, you can just go ahead and stay and do this, okay?

THere was a stretch of time where I worked every day, from 7am until 10pm, five days a week, PLUS 8am-4pm every Saturday for TWO FUCKING MONTHS. Why? Oh well it was summer...there's camp, and earaches, and boo-boo's and no school and EVERY OTHER EXCUSE under the sun. Did anyone EVER think that *I*, as childfree as I am, MIGHT want to actually DO something besides be a slave to the job I was required to keep in order to put food on my fucking table? Oh no. I don't have kids, therefore, I have NO obligations in life other than working, I have NO desire to do anything in life other than working, and I have NO interest in seeing my husband outside of the break room for 15 minutes a day.

It always amazed me how, on the Friday of a 3-day weekend, EVERYONE's kid got sick right around noon. I swear...someone needs to do a study as to why kids get sick the day after Thanksgiving (when everyone is supposed to work, but only the old and childfree actually do), why they get sick the day after new years (when everyone is supposed to work, but only the old, sober, and childfree actually do), and why they ALWAYS get sick the Friday of, and the Monday following a 3-day weekend. Why is Labour Day such a sick-kid day in corporations across the country?

I don't mind helping someone if their kid is sick. If they're a single parent. If they don't have childcare....A sick kid who's puking is COMPLETELY different from a soccer game. And---I know this for a fact---that at least 80% of the "sick kid" days were complete bullshit, because hours after the worker left for the day to tend to sickly little Johnny, would little Johnny actually CALL THE OFFICE to find out where Mommy or Daddy was...hmmm....

When I approached my boss about this, she (having kids of her own and being one who was more than happy to abuse the system) just reminded me that I had the best paying job I'd ever get in my life, and that I needed to learn to "work with people" or just find work elsewhere.

I'm more than happy to "work with people", but I'd expect a BIT of courtesy when it comes to picking up the slack. Never ONCE did I inconvenience ANYONE with sickness or personal obligations. I ALWAYS came into work when I was supposed to, and would only go home if told to by my boss (being sick). I didn't come in late, leave early, or use bullshit excuses to not only get out of doing MY work, but having someone ELSE stay late or come in on a Saturday to do MY work and theirs.

The lack of respect is the biggest thing. I would have LOVED to have taken the friday after Thanksgiving off..just once...maybe maybe maybe I'd like to visit family out of town. But I never could because I knew that I would be required to come in to cover for the other 6 people in my office (all with kids) who suddenly got a case of Turkey Worms and couldn't POSSIBLY come in that day..or do work from home.

Sure, it takes a village. Sure, parents need to spend time with their kids. But NOT at the expense of other's time, effort, and energy. It's rude and inconsiderate and if you can't handle having a job (like Sales, where you're expected to work minimum 50 hrs a week) AND having a kid at the same time, do EVERYONE a favour and either work with your boss to get more flexible hours, or get a different job that allows you to work AND be a parent in the way you'd like.

Oh--and about daycare---never an issue for the people I worked with. This was high-end sales. 90% of the kids were in private school, had pre-and post-school programs, and I was the lowest-paid Sales Rep bringing in $40k a year. Everyone above me made MINIMUM $100k a year PLUS 8% commission. They were well paid and could have (and did) afford round the clock daycare when needed. They were just selfish and greedy assholes who felt the world revolved around them and their brood and that they were the ONLY people who deserved to enjoy a weekend that didn't involve punching a time clock

[GodHelpUsAll2]

122. This particular

statement is of great interest to me.


They were well paid and could have (and did) afford round the clock daycare when needed.

Round the clock daycare? Has anyone seen what a lot of todays kids behave like?

There are more and more child criminals. Not shoplifting a candy bar type, murdering type. Does anyone wonder why? But hey, pay for round the clock daycare as long as you get the job done right?

This whole subject is mind boggling to me. If you are so overworked and dumped on because of the "parents" in the office then I would say you might want to rethink who you work for. However, I would be willing to bet that a lot of what has been said is over blown and embelished. Am I the only one who lives in America? The one controlled by Bush and his ilk? The same America that doesn't give two shits about the adults in this country, let alone the kids? Am I to believe there is this "parents" work utopia that practically slobbers and bows down to the parents who work there. If it exists will someone please tell me where, because I have been a single parent of 2 for 10 years now and I can not even begin to tell you the greif I have had if I needed to leave to take a child to the doctor because they had 103 fever. I have even been told I could pay 25.00 a day and have them cared for in the sick room of the local hospital so I could get right back to work. Never mind what the ailment might be. I have been "layed off" because I had kids and could not, and refused to work an insane amount of hours. So again, pease tell me where all the parent utopias are.

[gaia_gardener]

199. All I had to do was get pregnant

and suddenly I was no longer promotion material. I carried a heavier caseload, met the performance benchmarks more consistently, etc, etc, etc, but "you don't work hard enough". Why? Because I didn't work overtime. I didn't need to work overtime, I got my work done during work hours.

Now my friend (who I love and don't blame at all) is childfree. She got promoted even though she worked less hours than I did (her caseload was lighter and she was allowed to leave when her cases were at benchmark levels). The boss never said boo to her for leaving at 4:00.

My situation was about an asshole boss who thought that being a mother made me a lesser employee and nothing I could have done could convince him otherwise. I finally was voted employee of the month and he was very, very surprised. Even the managers in the other departments noticed my work performance, but he couldn't see past the baby at home.

[BluGrl]

177. Yeah...right!

Oh, please! I'm your worst nightmare. I worked as a childless employee until I had my first child at 28. I then became one of those evil, ignorant SAHM that doesn't benefit society.

Not only do I know exactly what it's like to be in the childless employee's shoes, I'm raising my own kids so their father doesn't have to schluck off his duties to clueless childless employees that think they know something about parenthood and the proper way to raise them.

It's hilarious...really!

[Lilith Velkor]

219. Miss points much?

Nobody said anything about stay-at-home parents.

And what the hell does wanting more free time have to do with "knowing something about parenthood?"

Get over yourself, Mommie Dearest.

[undeterred]

76. It can be annoying when you feel like you can't say no

I worked in a situation where there were two of us responsible for covering phones 7am-6pm. Person with kids needs to pick her child up from school in the aftenoon and make dinner, so I agree to work later. Then her husband's job changes and she has morning childcare responsibilities- so she wants to work later and have me come in early.

I didn't like being at the end of this chain, and my supervisor just said "work it out". I had to switch around my work schedule because of her childcare responsibilties, and I don't think it was right.

[gaia_gardener]

204. I had to change around my work schedule

because my boss decided I needed to cover a different area of the country. When I covered the eastern section, I worked 7-4, when I covered the western section I worked 9-6 (some of my co-workers worked 10-7). I was changed around because I could make deadlocked cases come unstuck (yet, I wasn't a valuable employee). I could make our outside vendors suddenly become compliant (one called me a bitch, but the ones that were good loved the shit out of me).

My last job, I worked there for 6 months. During that time I had 5 different lunch hours (ranging from starting at 11:00 to starting at 1:00).

Changes in scheduling happens, even without a co-worker who needs help with childcare. It's one of those fun things about working for someone else. It sucks when it happens, I completely understand that, but it's something that does happen. I've been places where my schedule changed around someone's college course schedule (paid for by the company) - is that more noble than caring for a child?

[Matariki]

79. The REAL problem, in my opinion

my parent's generation were able to support a family with one person working 40 hours. That doesn't seem possible anymore.

What I'd see as ideal is a 20 hour work week with livable wages. That way everyone could pursue a career and raise children if they wanted, or divide the labor how they saw fit.

It's crazy that it takes family's working a combined total of 80 hours or more and then trying to cook, clean, raise kids and so forth.

And I deeply resent being expected to cover for these people as well. I choose to not have kids so I could pursue an art career, not fill in for breeders at my day job.

[margaritamama]

80. Mothers should not work outside of home, right?

Lets face it, you are railing against the working moms, probably single working moms, at your job.

Plank # 4 in the GOP/RW/Fundy platform: No working moms. No welfare either.

[eeyore]

88. I said no such thing about mothers.

I'm actually talking about mostly fathers who I work with.

I have way more respect for single parents, and I can't imagine the stress and difficulty of being one.

If you are a single mother, I understand your defensiveness. You have the hardest job in the world!

[margaritamama]

97. Learn from those guys

If your working with men who are such good fathers..I would count my blessing and pay attention.

You may just learn something from those guys.

[walldude]

82. This is insane...

I cannot believe a board full of progressives are this down on parenting. Look, if you are working harder to make up for a parent who is slacking it is not the parents problem it's YOURS! If you don't have the guts to stand up for yourself it's not my problem. Thanks to Bush and his croneys I have to work 60-70 hours a week just to cover my bills. That doesn't include things like car repairs, new clothes, an occasional night out. Then after my 10-12 hour day(Yeah I really feel bad for those EIGHT harsh hours you put in probably behind a freakin desk, try working for a living, you know dirty calloused scarred hands) I come home and try to take care of my family. I have 3 kids, one adopted. My wife has Muscular Distrophy and can't work. I would say I'm more than carrying my weight, was doing it well too till Bush got into office. So if you want to whine about your property taxes or that you have to stay late to sit at a fucking desk and play with your paperwork, then either grow some balls and stand up for yourself or STFU. It never ceases to amaze me how people will just find anyone to blame their personal problems on. Oh and if you don't like them in your YARD then put up a sign, or a fence. Or MOVE, there are plenty of places that don't allow kids.

[eeyore]

99. It's not about bad parents.

It's about overstressed parents who are being shitty friends and co-workers.

I feel for your situation, and can't imagine how hard you must work to make it all happen on a daily basis.

I work a salaried job where overtime is not allowed - I work a city job. If my coworker needs to leave I have to finish their work and mine in 40 hours (or else work for free for the government, which I've been known to do).

I don't know what to say, I'm not in your situation. But I'm frustrated with mine.

I live next to a school, and I have no problem with paying my taxes for the schools. In fact, if I had it my way we'd support the schools more.

I don't resent the kids, just the extra work I do.

[margaritamama]

113. Well stated

:thumbsup:

[Ilsa]

87. No. On top of all that, they get out of paying more in taxes because

they breed and inbreed and get those deductions.

Oh yeah, I have two kids. But my husband doesn't have to leave work for them because I did, semi-permanently.

[salin]

89. All the time

most the time it doesn't bug me - but sometimes...

Then there is the fact that I have six nieces and nephews (each requiring individual b-day and xmas gifts as well as each of their parents) - and each family gets me ...one gift. And until recently - they have made a heck of a lot more money than I .. again most years it doesn't bug me... but in some tighter years (like grad school)... while doing the buying - it rather hit hard (I spend a hundreds on the families - they spend maybe 30) Then we get to the giving and folks are so psyched (I do enjoy the matching the gift to the person) and I forget tha irritation (that old - giving gives more joy, thing.)

But while that works for family... the work thing - at times - does get a bit irksome. Especially in summer months when suddenly I have to put in 10 more hours or so a week - just because the parent types all clear out real early to deal with kid stuff... and the "store" (so to speak) still has to be manned.

Sorry folks with kids - I rewally don't mean to be insensitive - but at my workplace (and in my family) there is often an uneven workload from time to time. And I really don't know what I did to earn the weight of it.

[gaia_gardener]

93. My co-workers are pissed about my situation

I was looking for a part time job and I was hired to work part time. 8:30-2:00 (while the kids are in school). I get paid 69% of the normal salary (my hours work out to about 69% of a normal week) and I do usually stay until 2:15.

But, my agreement was that I would work x hours for x pay. Are some of them doing a little more than they were last year? Yes, but that's also a function of our firm having a better year than last year and it will show up in their bonus (which is computed based on the hours we worked, our salary and the firm's profits).

It sounds like your situation IS different, but I do think it is important to point out that a lot of people agreed to work a specific job within certain guidelines. I'm pissed at employers who hire people for 40 hours/week, occasional overtime, salaried and then expect them to work 50 hours/week every week. That's not "occasional overtime". Be upfront with your expectations and you'll have a happier work place.

[LeftyMom]

95. You sound like a mepublican right now

Were your parents usually there for your doctors appointments and dance recitals and shit? Mine weren't and if was hard on me as a kid. If you're slightly inconvenienced every now and then so some working parent can maintain a sembance of a relationship with thier offspring, that's a fairly minor investment in our society's future, isn't it? Covering for the guy in the next cube so he can go see his offspring play teeball seems like the kind, generous, liberal thing to do to me.

If you don't want to do it, negotiate for him to cover you for a similar time later in the week. At least that way, people won't abuse your reluctant generosity, if it means they'll have to work late the following day.

[salin]

169. Ding, Ding!

This is what I didn't do- and why it got to a point of resentment. I didn't say "sure - I'll cover x and y and z... but can you cover q and p next week?" I just sorta kept doing it - til noone asked - and I was working a boatload of extra hours - and being pretty surly about it. Finally got the nerve up to push for a "late" schedule - just went into effect - there are enough of us - that spreading it around should not be a burden on anyone (unless it keeps falling on one or two people - as it had been.) I take responsibility for letting myself be taken advantage of - because I "got" that the parent thing is hard - but I let it get to a point that was too much.

Funny thing is - that as I raised it - while most folks weren't enthusiastic about it - they did get it - and have been quite apologetic. I will remain to be flexible with other folks needs (emergencies and events) - but am finally beginning to get a little more firm.

From one who realizes that I let myself get into my situation - I say - "Great Advice!" Thumbs up to your post.

[LeftyMom]

188. Wow, I must be pretty good at office politics

for somebody who works in a one-person office! :D I think it's because my other personalities are such bitches. ;)

Glad I was somewhat helpful. I do try.

[UncleSepp]

244. I think you do, too

To me, a child free worker who

- is at work now
- has been at work since 9:30 AM
- probably won't leave work until 2:30 AM
- will be back at work again at 8 AM
- doesn't get flex time
- couldn't negotiate for anyone to cover my job since it doesn't work that way here
- sees people with families working a lot less

your position sounds like this:

"I want to have kids and also work, but I don't want to have to sacrifice time with my kids for the work. I want people without kids to work when I am supposed to be there, because me being with my kids is the best investment for the future that my coworkers could make. It is unkind and un-generous for someone to want to do something of their own choosing instead of working so I can spend an afternoon in the ballpark watching my kids."

Can you see how the position you are advocating is selfish, too?

[really annoyed]

100. I Do It All The Time

I'm the single gal in the office... My mom says it's an unfortunate reality I have to deal with. I don't buy it.

If you have a job, you have to be responsible about it.

My co-worker takes off for a half hour to pick her daughter up from school. Then she brings her to the office...

Oh, don't get me started...

[quaker bill]

106. Yup, you named it.

You don't have to work harder, your employer just needs to give up a bit more of his profits. He should suck it up and hire a temp to fill in, my employer does. You are putting the blame in the wrong place.

[eeyore]

112. I work for the city

Not gonna happen. Budget is so tight that overtime is not allowed. And I really do love my job.

Unfortunately this has become the American way. Everyone I know is overworked and stressed out. Really....everyone.

[quaker bill]

118. I work for the state

and they do it anyway.

[Sid Demo]

116. Wow, we should have another forum!!

Married with children vs. No kids in the workplace.

Looks like us DU'ers have some issues to work out.

[militaryWife]

117. it evens out

But one thing most are not considering, is that statistically, we've all done the extra work before we had kids, now some of us have different priorities- and that is a good thing. Guess what, in about 18 years, the cycle starts again and we will be childless and covering your butts so you can see Jr get his braces off. Nobody said life was fair and even and it is immature thinking to believe that it is. Child-free workers get promoted faster and therefore it basically evens out.

Bashing parents and devaluing children is wrong, and frankly something I'd expect from selfish republicans...let's face it, they probably have this same thread on their sites and that creeps me out.

mw

[enigmatic]

135. And calling the OP and people who agree w/ them..

Republicans and child-haters is just fine and dandy? Because whenever this kind of thread pops up (and it has before), the same words get thrown around. That's offensive to me. But I guess I just have to shut up and take it, because I'm a lowly childfree person and all..

[militaryWife]

157. well I'm new

and didn't the the benefit of the long, drawn out bitter history of previous threads that you speak of. Maybe those same phrases get thrown around because if you re-read this thread there clearly are some issues.

And the rest of my post is valid. We've all done it. I worked for and covered my co-workers in my child-free past, and I will again. Having experienced both the resentment of having to do more than my fair share and the fear of neglecting my parental duties, I can tell you straight up, parenting has the priority. Life is about balance and perspective.

And I never devalued life before children. Hell, I was in my 30's before I had my first child.

mw

[enigmatic]

166. I don't have child, and don't plan on having any

So, does this mean I'm going to have to get the shaft the rest of my life because of this?

[militaryWife]

170. yes, yes it does

But I'll be sure that my well-adjusted, well-educated adult children take good care of you in your nursing home...WOW look at that, you will benefit, are you happy now?

[enigmatic]

171. They won't

I live in Canada now.

[militaryWife]

181. too bad

then, because you'll never meet them- and they are fabulous.

mw

[enigmatic]

187. You can have the last word

I'm done.

[militaryWife]

191. Creepy

Let me get this straight, you hound me throughout the thread, whining that you get shafted no matter what, calling everyone who has children the derogatory term "breeders" and then immaturely "give me the last word" like I've done something wrong??? I would strongly encourage you to get a little perspective and quit feeling sorry for yourself.

[Lilith Velkor]

228. Creepier

Your apparent pity for anyone who will never meet your kids.

[eeyore]

148. I never devalued children

I'm a former teacher, and a firm believer that what comes around goes around. I'm an extremely progressive and easygoing sort of guy. I do, however, get a bit bent when people shirk their responsibilities.

I understand that my coworkers could not survive without their jobs, and I also get that their children are the priority. Children should always be the priority.

I'm just sick of bearing the brunt of a broken societal contract. We need to fix this situation - it hasn't always been this bad.

[BiggJawn]

124. And who covers for YOU?

Doctor's visits? Trips to the bank or DMV or other 9-5 entities that you just can't get around?

You NEVER have to have somebody cover YOUR ass?

or you do, and you somehow feel more noble because you're doing something for YOU, and not having to deal with the aftermath of a condom failure?

I did the single parent thing, Eeyore, and let me tell ya something.

Nothing bugged me more than to have to leave work early because of a sick kid, or a parent-teacher conference, or because the school psychologist just sent my kid to the mental horsepistol in a ambulance. You wanna know why?

it's because I KNEW that the childless co-workers I left behind were sniveling their fool heads off to each other and the boss, like I was on my way to spend the weekend with Paris Hilton or something, that's why.

Never mind the times I had to cover for THEM because of car trouble, or their partner was sick, or THEY had to go to the doctor, ot THEY were sick themselves....

Yeah, you're being just a LITTLE bit of an asshole.

[Skittles]

126. for the most part I do not mind covering for my coworkers with kids

I understand that children do complicate their lives tremendously. I do, however, dislike the feeling I am being taken advantage of or taken for granted. That is a big, fat NO -NO, and would be considered discourteous under any circumstances.

[ailsagirl]

141. Where I work, if your kid is sick, you take the time off of your

sick time (you're given a certain number of days per year--
how many, I forget).

And if you have to care for the kid for an extended time
period, there's family leave.

[BluGrl]

146. Think about it this way...

If Social Security still exists when you retire....their children will be the ones contributing to your retirement fund.

If you don't have children (and that is completely your choice) then that places the burden to take *care* of you in your old age on your "inconsiderate" coworkers' *kids*. Unless you plan to not use SS when you retire.

*edited for clarification*

[salin]

156. True

but I have also contributed to other peoples' parents and to other people in their retirement through my contribution. On that front I think it is an even deal.

I do remember being a kid, and how great it was to have a parent at events. And thus I never begrudge that. But as I am understanding on that front (and on the running out to deal with different emergencies front) - I do hope that there is some recipricocity. I have of late found myself in a situation where there is none - and the work culture had grown to 15 of 18 folks leaving early because of kids - and the last 3 folks (myself primary amolng that group) being stuck, daily, for several more hours.

I admit that to some extent I allowed myself to be taken advantage of - and have worked to have the situation corrected - and my colleagues and friends (with kids - who were ducking out) have acknowledged that they were doing so (taking advantage) - and we are now trying out (week one) a schedule that folks volunteer for (and thus can work around "events" - and is light (one time a week - as opposed to nearly every day for the one or two that had become the default situation.)

I think that folks just need to be responsive and respectful of one another: of the needs of folks with kids - and of the fact that those without kids also have a life and sometimes need some time off, as well.

[BluGrl]

184. Not quite even

Unless you have children to replace you when you retire, you aren't even. All you have done is pay for the retirement of the older generation and stiffed the up and coming generation of a potential employee to help "pay the bills."

It's always easier to pay the tab when you split it 50 ways than if you split it just 5 ways.

[Clark2008]

152. Here's the deal.

By picking up the slack now, you ensure that someone will be picking it up for you in the future when you have kids. (Karma).
Also, by allowing these parents to spend more time with their kids, you're also ensuring a better society. Parents who have time to spend with their kids, for the most part, have better-adjusted children which makes for a better-adjusted society (this is a generalization, I realize).
You're not an asshole, just frustrated.

[misanthrope]

154. No, you're not alone...

...there are others of us out here and, yes, the societal prejudices are real.

[enigmatic]

162. And you're seeing them on this thread

But I've given up trying to fight it here; it's not worth it.

[enigmatic]

158. Aren't you glad you opened up this can of worms?

:)

Seriously, this happens anytime someone starts a thread in this vein, and before this thread got to 20 posts I knew who would show up and what their reactions would be. It's sad, but what are you going to do?

You're not an asshole, Republican, child-hater, etc, and don't let anybody here try to make you feel that way. I really suggest trying to talk to management and seeing what can be done, and don't let anybody here or at your job guilt-trip you into doing otherwise.

Good luck.

[cynatnite]

164. Hey, we can agree! :)

I have a good friend who isn't married and has never had kids. It was by choice and not biology. She is very content with her life as it is and at times resents the Family Leave Act because she feels it benefits parents at the expense of those who don't have children.

I can't say as I blame her, but on that same end I don't think people should be penalized for having kids. Her and I don't agree about this and that's okay. We can still trash bush as much as we'd like :)

I do hope you can find a way to work this out so you don't have to be the one to pick up the slack for other co-workers. There has to be a way to find a balance.

I wish you the best of luck, too, Mermaid.

[mermaid]

175. Thanks

Incidentally, I DO NOT resent FMLA...I've used it myself, on two occasions.

Once, to care for my mom during an illness following a surgery.

And once, to cover for surgery for myself. Not life-threatening surgery, but, nevertheless, surgery...and I needed recuperation time, and I got it thru FMLA.

It's the Family and MEDICAL Leave Act. And I, as a single person have taken advantage of it twice.

Once to care for myself (medical) and once to care for family (my mom)

So I don't resent that. I do NOT resent legitimate emergencies. What I resent is lying, slacking co-workers, who use THE KIDS as the all-purpose excuse.

And I resnt getting fired when I called out the liars.

[gaia_gardener]

210. Well yeah, but what you should resent

is the asshole boss that allowed it. I worked with a woman who went through every excuse possible for being late and taking 2 hour lunches. The boss let her. She realized he was going to give in to her demands, so then she pulled out the excuses with her child. She was an asshole employee, child or not. But the boss was the bigger asshole for letting her do it and expecting the rest of us to pick up her slack (which we didn't do, we had our own caseloads).

It's about the boss. People who have entitlement issues about their children had them before they had children.

[FrenchieCat]

173. But, but, but....

OP author asked....so maybe he wanted to opinions of others....and knowing DU, could bet that they would not all be the same.

Ask, and yee shall receive!

[eeyore]

176. I knew it would be dicey....

But wow! It's okay, I know where I stand, and I know that it will all be okay in the end. It can just suck day to day.

Thanks for having my back!

[enigmatic]

178. No problem

And seriously, go to management; you owe it to yourself.

[barb162]

161. your post reminds me of a coworker I had a few years ago

I had to work I don't know how many Sundays for her because of baptism of her granddaughter. I swear her one granddaughter was baptized about TEN DAMNED TIMES. She was the biggest liar at that company but was brilliant at getting away with that crap.

[bleedingheart]

172. Report them to Human Relations......But Remember...

...Remember one day when you are ill, a parent dies or a partner is very ill....someone will be covering for you.

...Remember when you leave early to attend a ballgame with some chums or you leave early on your anniversary or call in sick on your birthday....someone is going to cover for you....

...Remember when your pet is sick and throwing up all over the house or perhaps you are sick...someone is covering for you....

Cast stones all you want but life is too short to spend it miserable about the fact that life is messy....

Now if you truly have a coworker that you feel you are "covering for"...well then go to HR and or start filing formal reports...but remember this....the rest of the company will start to do the same to you...so just make sure that you don't slip up either cuz payback can be nasty...

speaking as someone who has been both single, married and a parent...and who has covered for my share of single childless people who needed help....

[Randers]

202. I think this is good advice

You never know.

A friend of mine whose husband had been able to take the kids everywhere so she could work 60-70 hours a week had a situation where her husband became gravely ill.

Her company cut her a lot of slack because of all of the extra work she did over the years so she could spend a lot of time with her husband.

I think workplaces should be more family friendly anyway. Some of them are. The better ones are.

(On the other hand - I don't think much of people who unreasonably take advantage of others).

[Eloriel]

183. Well, your problem isn't with people who have children

it's people who have absentee problems, AFAIC.

I don't like your attitude one bit, frankly, but I also see your point and I repeat: It's not about workers with children, it's workers who aren't on the job when they're supposed to be.

[MissB]

185. Yours is one of the sanest posts on this thread.

:hi:

[eeyore]

216. Actually it's people with children who have absentee problems...

It's an unfortunate situation. If I suddenly developed a passion for something that repeatedly took me away from my work, my job would be at risk. My coworkers who have kids will never be reprimanded - it's considered anti-family to question a parent's commitment to the job.

It puts me in an awful position. I can tell my coworker and make them guilty or defensive. I can put in a word to a supervisor and breach the trust of my coworker. There's just really not a good answer. Our society is in deep trouble where families are concerned.

[The Straight Story]

186. And you too have a choice - not to work where you do.

I do understand your frustrations, but hell I see this more from people myself without kids then with kids (and especially with single people).

I need to take my car in to shop, I have a date and we are going to a play that starts at X time, I have to help someone move, my mom is in town, and I could go on and on. I manage 25 (across several 24x7 facilities) people, 3 of whom are single no kids and 4 who are married no kids.

The people without kids have missed way more work then those with. One guy, one of my best workers, worked from home multiple days due to problems with his car (3 times in 2 weeks - like the power window was not working so he took it in, etc), his motorcycle, bought a new house and had to close and all that, and because he does side work (his own business) on web sites he often has to rush off early to see a client here and there.

The other single guy is not so bad, but last week he had to run out early to pull some web servers from a place that was housing them for him before they left for the day.

So I see the opposite of what you do, but it honestly does not bother me at all. I know people have things which they need or want to do, and I sure as hell know work will call you any hour of the day if they need something (I was on a conf call from 1a-5am Sunday night) - so if my daughter is sick or my wife is and I need to come home, I will (and I can work from home a lot in my position).

[progmom]

190. flamebait?

x(

[Horse with no Name]

200. methinks so

This is a freeper email that was circulating awhile back trying to justify why FMLA was bad--because the people who used it when their kids were sick left their colleagues picking up slack since they couldn't hire anyone else in their place.

[eeyore]

209. Not in the least.

I wrote the whole damn thing out of my own frustration. Real day to day issues in my very own life. I may have a low post count, but I'm no freeper. And believe it or not I can write my own posts.

Check yourself - I think I've nicely stated my frustrations in a mostly positive way.

[Horse with no Name]

242. It may be your frustration--granted

but there is a very similar freeper email that is almost identical to this floating around in cyberspace--but with that said--I didn't call you a freeper. I was referring to the email.
Several here have commented that they have seen it.
I'm not saying you copied it or plagiarized it or whatever...but the sentiments echo exactly your thoughts.
I have no idea how this has happened.:shrug:

[kaitykaity]

193. Get over selfish yourself.

I don't have kids either, and I don't mind helping
friends who do.

Being a parent is hard work, harder than any job you'll
ever do. Try doing it and earning a living at the same
time.

See, we want people to have kids. We need people to have
kids or the species dies out, see? DIES OUT. GET IT???

"Choose to breed"? Bullshit.

[eeyore]

211. I'm not so sure I care if our species dies out.

We're not doing such a hot job of being good stewards of the earth, and I think we're quite possibly beyond repair.

We're way overpopulated as it is. We're really in no danger of dying out as a species regardless of birth rates.

People have often said to me that it would be a shame if I didn't have kids - that I have a responsibility to raise good kids. To me that's just saying that we need to make sure that our breeding of "good" people outpaces the breeding of "bad" people. Pretty classist stuff if you ask me.

[kaitykaity]

226. The problem is that this undervalued (parenting) work was always

done invisibly by unpaid slaves known as mothers.

Well too bad for you that the workload gets spread out
evenly and that everybody has to carry a little bit of
the load.

Oh boo hoo hoo.

Like I said. Selfish.

Oh, and the "not sure you care"? Lame, lame, lame.
Unoriginal.

[progressivebydesign]

217. I'm a parent and I don't find the poster to be selfish at all.

The world does not stop because some people choose to have children. Companies need to treat everyone fairly. Just because someone has kids shouldn't give them a free pass to leave work... That subject is left between the management and the parents.. and the management needs to make sure it's feasible for those parents to leave and that it does not unfairly impact other people. Do you honestly think that every single parent in the place he/she works gets time off to see their kiddies games?? no. Sounds like bad management.

[kaitykaity]

230. It's bad management to force people to keep the most

important part of their lives totally separate.

It's the sacred/profane divide, the divide of the world
of unpaid (discarded) women and paid (valued) men.
Well, the world has changed at least that much, where
women have enough power that these issues now carry
some importance at work now.

I think it's about time that the parenting workload
gets spread around and people feel free to honor those
obligations.

Companies don't exist in a vacuum. The more they invest
in their employees' lives outside of the workplace, the
happier their employees will be.

I wonder if this person has spoken up about any "unfairness"
or does he/she just like feeling picked on? The company can't
address such "unfairness" without being aware of it.

[spacelady]

194. Not an A-hole at all. Before I became a Mommy, this shit drove me batty

Now, if I have to do some kid-related stuff, I would expect to be able to take off work with no pay or utilize vacation & other available timeoff, BUT anyone who had to pick up the slack should be paid extra accordingly. If there was no one available or willing, then I would be responsible for the down time. How about that?

[gaia_gardener]

212. That's one thing

I always made sure I made up my work by working longer at lunch, etc.

Now, there was still someone who had to take my calls and might have had to handle an emergency now and again. But that would happen when I was taking lunch too (we couldn't all take the same lunch hour so that someone could be there to handle phone calls and emergencies).

I took off for pediatrician visits and for preschool programs and parties. An hour here, an hour there. Then I would take 45 minute lunches the rest of the week to cover that hour.

[spacelady]

215. I am sure that you putting in extra time was noted & appreciated

and did not cause your co-workers to resent time taken off for children. You are the exception to the complaint of the single workers.

[gaia_gardener]

220. You'd think so

but we still had a worker who complained that I took off to go to a "silly preschool program". Of course, her taking off for a sale was perfectly reasonable (I didn't object or care that she took off for the sale, but I did have to laugh that she thought my priorities were off).

That was an exceptionally weird place to work though. We were salaried, but we had to clock in and out and our minutes were watched very, very carefully. People were encouraged to report on people who "forgot" to clock out when they went on lunch or break, etc. Very hostile environment, which is why I only lasted 6 months. The one good thing about it, though, was that if someone complained about you taking off, you could print a report of your minutes and show that you still put in your 2,250 minutes (the 15 minute state mandated morning and afternoon breaks were taken out of the 2400 minutes in a typical 40 hour workweek).

[gauguin57]

198. Not wanting to ALWAYS be the one to pick up the slack isn't being

Anti-Parent!!! For God's sake! More power to parents who parent. But I shouldn't have to cover your work because you often want to leave early to go to a soccer game here, an early daycare closing there, a dance recital here, a kindergarden pageant there. It's not fair. GO to those things, but work it out with management so I don't have to pick up all your slack! And I'm a person who loves to help out my colleagues -- I've often volunteered to put in unpaid overtime to help people who were struggling or needed some extra training they weren't getting through proper channels. I'm a very giving person. But those extra hours are MY choice. And I'm willing to put in extra hours when EVERYONE's asked to put in extra hours when the company needs it. But when I was forced to constantly pick up the slack for people who had child-raising responsibilities in various workplaces -- JUST BECAUSE I'M SINGLE -- that was just wrong. It's discriminatory. I am not anti-parent in the least. I'm anti-management-who-treats-employees-inequitably.

I'm single and childless, and have been put upon CONSTANTLY in more than one workplace. So, as one of the posters on this thread said, I'm supposed to be a generous liberal and contribute to the raising of your child by covering all your hours every time you leave early? ... Come on! It gets reaaaallll old. I have a life; just cuz I don't have kids doesn't mean I don't have important things to do, and things that are meaningful to me. I might want to get to a Democratic party meeting at which I'm working for the future of YOUR KIDS AND GRANDKIDS! But I'm kept late at work because you have to do something with your kids constantly (I'm not talking about emergencies here). It's especially frustrating when you cannot complain to the management because the management are the ones bringing their kids into the office for hours on end (and basically asking employees to entertain them so the bosses can do their work -- "go talk to So-and-So so Daddy can work.") or setting their own hours around their kids' school schedules.

And, yes, I've quit situations like that because the management wouldn't do anything about the unfairness.

I think we singletons are constantly reminded of what working parents go through, and I understand all that. But I don't think working parents think about what their accommodating their families does to the single/childless people left at work -- WHEN THE MANAGEMENT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING TO MAKE THINGS EQUITABLE, I mean. It's not the parents' fault, it's the company's fault. The company has to figure a way to help parents parent without screwing the singletons. Maybe give the singletons the option of picking up the slack FOR MORE PAY THAN THE EARLY-LEAVING PARENTS GET.

You know what -- those of us who live alone may have friends who support us and help us out, but a lot of us wind up doing a lot of stuff in our lives all alone (I'm talking to two-parent families now, not single parents who struggle more than I do). We don't have spouses to help us figure things out and put our houses in order. We do all the chores both spouses would share. We have difficulties, too! And then we're asked to constantly work more and more and more so that people with spouses can go home early to be with their families? Sorry, but that's just bullshit -- not parent-hating.

If you parents still think all of us are being "anti-parent," then you're not even trying to understand or empathize.

[progressivebydesign]

213. You're not a jackass... you have a valid point.

It's not the parent's fault, I think, it's the company's fault for not having some sort of equitable system for flex time that benefits ALL employees. I was childless until I was 40, finding myself with stepkids a while back.. and I still think from the childless point of view on that..

You're not a jerk. You're right to say those things... it's great of you to cover, but it's not fair.

[neverforget]

218. I was there once when I was childless. You need to talk to management

or work something out such as "I'll work this if you work that" type of thing. Don't get advantage of!

However, after reading some of these posts, I have to think some of the posters were never kids themselves or they just don't remember the hell they put their parents through at various times.

[radio4progressives]

221. Those kids are members of your community - you have a stake in their care

as we all do.

neglected children become neglected - troubled youth, and too often become troubled and unemployable adults who turn to crime and drugs which impacts our entire society socially and economically.

Contrarily, nourished and well cared for children generally become positive contributors to our communities, our society. from our neighborhoods, schools, business to public office.

and their children's children will impact our country's future. making decisions that will impact us personally.

so, the way to look at it, while you may have decided not to have children, you are still none the less, part of a larger family and children are a major factor in all of this.

so their welfare should be considered just as important to you personally, as it wpuld be if they were your own relative.

and by the way, consider that the parent co-worker may be picking up more slack in other ways than you can imagine, and they suffer guilt over having to leave earlier, yet it is their responsibility and obligation as a parent.

seen through these lenses, doesn't it give you a bit of comfort knowing that these are loving, caring and responsible parents, providing those kids with what they need in the best way they can.

Also, keep in mind, that it is likely they'd rather be in the financial position to be at home with them in the first place and not have to work!

[gauguin57]

235. So, single people are supposed to stay late nearly every day for no extra

pay so that the parents in the office can consistently leave early? So, single people are to be deprived of their free time, their outside lives, in order that someone else's children can be nurtured? So that someone can go enjoy their time with their kids, a single person stays chained to the desk, by order of management? So, I should constantly give up MY life for YOUR kids?

Sorry, that won't wash. And I won't be told that I'm less of a liberal or less generous than anyone else because I refuse to be taken advantage of BY MANAGEMENT (I'm not blaming the parents here. I think parents SHOULD have the flexibility to nurture and care for their kids. But NOT at the expense of the single and the childess all the time!) Even Mother Theresa would get pissed off by that kind of mistreatment by management!

I do care about kids. And parents. I care about kids being nurtured. I'm just saying the workplace has to be made equitable for singles, marrieds, divorcees, single parents, married parents ... everyone who works in a workplace.

[Lorien]

240. Single workers will never find mates with which to start families

if they are spending most of their evenings in the office.

[SheilaT]

222. I'm somewhat amazed that

no one seems to have tuned in to the idea that maybe the whole system is totally fucked up. Maybe too many workplaces are overworking and underpaying everyone.

But I will add my two cents that childless people overall take just as much time off for personal reasons as those with kids, only for different reasons.

And yeah, all you blissful "child free" folks need to remember that it's someone else's kid who'll by paying your social security somewhere down the road.

[Matariki]

231. 100% agreed

the system is totally fucked up. we're working twice as hard - or more - than our parent's generation.

part of the issue for me however is the sort of conventional mentality that makes excuses like kids or weddings or church obligations acceptable but something like taking a long weekend for a Vodou class (for instance) something that can't even be mentioned. For me, it's not really about kids but the 'tyranny of the normal'. And while I agree that there is a societal obligation to educating children, I don't think that having children gives an automatic entitlement - to other people's labor for one thing.

And technically, we've paid our Social Security during our working years.

[lostnfound]

225. Why aren't you blaming this on your boss instead of coworkers?

He or she is the one who is allowing the workload to be transferred too much to just you...?

During some phases, it is simply impossible for parents to be good workers AND good parents. For example, when a baby or toddler first starts going to daycare, he/she usually gets sick every 2 or 3 weeks, for about 6 months. Maybe companies should fire women when they get pregnant like they do in Mexican sweatshops? :shrug: :eyes:

As a parent, it is PURE hell to stay up all night with a croupy, coughing baby, worried over whether you need to take him to the hospital because he's not breathing very well. This is a normal passage of parenting.

As a parent, it is PURE hell to be vomiting :puke: in the middle of the night from a stomach flu simultaneously when your toddler is :puke: doing the same, and he is crying and screaming because he is afraid and you can't help him because you are 'indisposed' yourself. This is a normal passage of parenting.

As a parent, it is nearly hell to be sick yourself month after month during those first 6 months of daycare.

Nobody knows when they 'choose' to be a parent just how hard it really is. What rapidly becomes apparent is that you sometimes have to choose between being a good parent and doing a good job at the other responsibilities that you have. Some parents who choose the latter. Their children suffer. But hey, at least you don't.

Between work hours and driving hours, and young children's sleeping hours, parents would spend NO time with their children 5 days a week if they don't make the kids the priority once in a while. If children don't get to connect with their parents, what happens?

If you feel you are being 'put upon', then you don't like your work environment, you should speak up to your boss or look for a new job. If you are actually bothered because they are guilting you into something that you don't want to do, maybe you should focus on that. Give up the guilt, and the anger, and concentrate on the choices that you have.

[Matariki]

234. with 6.4 billion people on the planet

should people be rewarded and applauded for having children? why do people with kids seem to think they're so special?

[Lorien]

238. It's terrifying

I keep think of a psych experiment done at a university my father was teaching at when I was a kid. They had a group of rats in a large cage and they gave the rats more water and food than they needed every day. The rats kept breeding, but the food and water amounts never changed. Soon they reached a "tipping point" where available food and water could not sustain the population. Every rat became violent-they lashed out if another got too close, they killed their young,they knawed their own flesh, and they became diseased. The experiment, as I'm sure you guessed, dealt with overpopulation. Our population will double in 20 years, then double again 10 years later...when will we come to OUR "tipping point"?

[fortyfeetunder]

236. Here is some food for thought

Perhaps we need to re-evaluate the definition of "family"...as I have discovered in my readings

Family today does nothave to consist of the nuclear male parent, female parent, kids and pets. Family can be

my pet(s)
my spouse
my parents
my friends
my children
my SO and children

And I can think of several cases where time would have to be taken off to support any of these family situation.

And if the person has the opportunity to flextime/comptime to make up the time lost when taking care of these personal matters.

I wish MORE employers would be enlightened for this empowerment if applicable...

[Lorien]

237. Been there

and I've even been paid less for the same job than my male peers who have kids because I'm childless and female. Hey, I'd love to have kids, but there's already 6+ BILLION "miracles" on the planet already, and we're due to run out of resources at CURRENT consumption rates in 47 years.Get ready for the Mother of All Wars before THAT happens! If I ever have the money to support children on my own I'll adopt; and if that happens I would work out comp time with my coworkers (if I had them at that time-I'm self employed). Yes, I believe that raising children is very important even if I'm pro-ZPG; but having a plan, knowing your limitations, and not EXPECTING others to sacrifice for your choices is important too. I wouldn't mind staying late for a co-worker if they made an arrangement with me to help them out when something unexpected happens. It's the taking it for granted part that's hard to deal with.

[friesianrider]

239. Hell, no.

Tell them you want to leave early to spend the weekend making out with your SO. I'd bet you'd get some nasty looks but WTF. It's THEIR choice to have kids, and YOUR choice to just have a SO and spend your time with them.

I don't make any exceptions for people with kids unless they make exceptions for my choices in life.

[high density]

245. Kids or no kids, some people are users

I think every workplace has at least one or two of these people that abuse the flexibility or niceness of others.

[UncleSepp]

246. Not at all

There's a difference between being a team player and being home plate. When the expected give and take becomes all you giving and all others taking, that's time to draw a line. You have as much of a right to take off early one day to go screw around and do nothing as they have to take off early one day to go watch their kids play ball - that's part of the choice you made. If you're not getting that in return, make it stop.

[gauguin57]

248. OK, here's the new plan ...

... so, the parents leave early all the time to take care of various things having to do with their kids. I'll stay late to pick up the slack, for no extra pay. So, I won't get home in time to do my laundry, clean the house, do my errands or mow the lawn. SO, since I'm staying late so the parents can parent, and the management won't equalize things, the parents can send THEIR KIDS over to MY PLACE to do MY chores and errands while I'm stuck at the office compensating for the parents. OK? Now, we're all even.

OR, management could work things out for both parents and the childless, and treat people equitably and fairly. That would work, too.

[OnionPatch]

250. I understand how you feel

because I have felt that way before. Of course I don't know the details of your situation, but I do remember feeling like my employers had taken advantage of me before I had kids. "She can stay late, she doesn't have anyone to go home to..." :eyes:
But I felt it was the employers fault, not my co-workers with children. The employer should know exactly who can work when and schedule accordingly. Example: I work part-time now because of my very young daughter and most of the people I work with are full-time. My employer knows I can only work X amount of hours and they schedule accordingly. I don't feel like I'm taking advantage of anyone. I only get paid for the hours I work. I get passed over for promotions and I don't get benefits. I work the hours I agreed to work and can work no more than that. I can't see how this would be my fault. In my view, your boss is taking advantage of you, not your fellow-employees with kids.

[alittlelark]

252. Their children will pay your SS (provided the parasite-in-theif

does not get his way).

I DO NOT THINK that having a child makes one 'better'. I do believe that once the child is in the world it must be cared for, and that is damn difficult these days.


Complain to b*sh about the tax cuts for the wealthy that cut the funding to children...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

254. Why don't you find a reason to go someplace when they ask you....

...to cover for them?

That way you won't have to complain about covering for them on a message board.

[funflower]

260. Maybe all human beings could just stop having kids.

Or maybe all women could just quit their jobs and stay home and bear the entire burden of raising the next generation themselves.

And, while we're at it, why should anyone be required to help anyone with anything that they didn't choose? Let's forget about public education, health care for anybody but the rich, mental health programs, welfare of any kind....

But who the hell will pay your social security and medicare in a few years? Who will be your nurse when you're in the nursing home? Who will fix your food and sweep your floors and walk you to the potty when you're no longer able to choose exactly what you want to do 100% of the time?

Children aren't toys. They're something that all of us need, whether we choose to "breed" them or help raise them or not.

If it's such an unbearable burden for you, why don't you talk to your boss about how unfair your life is and how you need more time off to golf or whatever essential thing you financially non-stressed-out nonbreeders do with your time?
:puke:

[NMMNG]

266. I don't think you are being a jacka$$

Covering for a co-worker parent who needs to take off time for a sick/injured child,take off for a child's parent/teacher conference or take off for something important is one thing. However constantly having to cover so a co-worker parent can run off to soccer games, ballet classes, pick the kids up from day care, etc. is unfair to childless employees. If parents want to sign their children up for a bunch of activities they should work their schedules around them--after all, childless employees wouldn't be allowed to just take off for personal activities and expect their co-workers to take up the slack, would they?

[tkmorris]

278. It occurs to me that........

Those children, the ones you chose not to have but your co-workers did have, are the ones who will be paying YOUR Social Security check one day. If I were you I'd hope they are as healthy and well-educated as possible.

[The Magistrate]

280. Locking

Imflammatory at the start, and gone on long enough....