Homeschooling is an option that many parents choose...

[redqueen]

or would like to choose.

It is not always based on religious beliefs.

It is not always done by wealthy people.

Just thought that needed to be pointed out pretty clearly.

[Pacifist Patriot]

1. I'm not sure what prompted this, but for what it is worth.

I believe you are absolutely correct. At least based upon my experience and research.

[redqueen]

2. It was prompted by some of the kneejerk responses in the thread

about homeschooled students wanting to participate in extracurricular activities at public schools.

[Pacifist Patriot]

30. Oh, I tend to avoid such discussions.

I cannot be objective.

[LoZoccolo]

3. Andrea Yates was teh RESULT of homeschooling!

PEronsally, I feel that the govenrmnt has NO PBUSINESS subsicizing the creation of MONSTERS such as ANDREA YATES, who chose to home school her children to be dominisionist foot soldier. ANY effor t to stop this march of THEOCRATIC TAKEOVER is weolcome in MY BOOK, and i will advotacate it an ANY WAY when I engage in activisn when I post on DU.

_{NOTE: This post is sarcastic.}

[redqueen]

7. hehe

Thanks for the sarcasm disclaimer... you had me very worried for a second!

[geniph]

21. Holy crap, you scared me there for a minute!

thought you were channeling the Reverse Freep-O-Bot! Those are the scariest typos I've seen since the last time I read the Hate Mailbag!

[dogday]

29. Andrea Yates Is Not The Poster Child For Homeschooling, She

is however the poster child for mental illness, especially postpartum depression and just how bad you can get.

Homeschooling is a good thing if that is what the parents and child decide for whatever reason. This is not about Religion, this is about intrusiveness as well. Alot of the hippies and People who don't trust the government don't like public school. And now they introduce mental health counselors and want to give your kid medicine.

Go ahead and advocate your cause, just know all about what you are advocating please....

[Pacifist Patriot]

31. Yikes, you had me going too.

Hold on a minute while I calm my beating heart. Sorry, but I had it up to my ear canals with this argument a few years ago. Cheers!

[LeftyMom]

4. Thank you!

Many thanks from this non-wealthy, non-religious homeschooling mother for pointing that out. :)

Some people will continue to prefer thier favorite ignorant steroetypes, though. :(

[iconoclastic cat]

6. The thread wasn't about homeschooling in general. It was about a specific

person who wants public schools to allow homeschoolers to use the schools' facilities and resources without actually enrolling their students in the school.

[redqueen]

8. Regardless, the responses were disgusting.

And quite frankly, I still do not understand why so many are so dead set against letting children participate if their parents, do, in fact, help to fund those activities.

What's the reason for exlusion? Principle?

[iconoclastic cat]

12. I couldn't begin to tell you what the reason for exclusion would be.

In my personal point of view, if you are paying taxes, you should be allowed access to public programs. I don't see a valid or logical reason for excluding that woman's kid from the local public school's football team.

[Modem Butterfly]

14. Liability insurance for one

Wear and tear and other physical plant costs for another.

[redqueen]

39. Funding

which is used to pay for insurance, and replacement / maintenance... is based on either: enrollment, participation, or by the parents.

Where it is the case that it is from participation, or by the parents, what is your objection?

[Bridget Burke]

53. And the possibility of Athletic Scholarships?

Will public schoolers be "bumped" to make room for the homeschooled? Will academic requirements for participation be the same?

Any kid who really wants to play can find an outlet. But those teams may not get scouted.

[KittyWampus]

15. Funding. Funds are set to enrollment.Opting out of public school deprivess

the school of funds for that particular child... yet said child expects to recieve benefits?

[iconoclastic cat]

17. Ah, I hadn't thought of that.

[Pacifist Patriot]

52. It's not a very good argument.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3920485&mesg_id=3921203

As an aside, I have a county that is very accommodating to homeschoolers as far as extracurricular activities are concerned.
Priority for spots on teams, roles in plays and membership in clubs is granted to enrolled students first, homeschooled students second and private school students third. The homeschool and private school families are charged a nominal activity fee that buys into the group liability coverage for sports and equipment maintenance for all activities.

[MountainLaurel]

23. Huge issue in my home county

Where there is a court case brewing over students from the neighboring county who attend school in ours. It all started because a bus from our county has to go into the next county to turn around on its route. Some of the students from that county then received permission to attend school in our county -- perhaps 20 of them -- because our county's school is about 15 minutes closer. The neighboring county was losing some major money (for WV, at least), and then sued our county.

Ongoing nastiness.

[mediaman007]

33. You are talking about club or recreational teams...

School teams are an extension of the classroom. Students and teachers work together in an extended environment away from the classroom. When a home/private school student participates there is a limit to the relationship between the student and the advisor/coach. There is not a lot of bonding, in fact, the outside student could interfere in the team structure.

There are private clubs and recreation activities available to these students. That is the out of season team or activity.

I agree with others, that this is a part of the decision to choose home/private schooling.

[tnlefty]

36. I don't know about other areas, but the organized homeschooling

group in my area is very vocal about dissing public education and funding for it as well.

[Pacifist Patriot]

42. In my experience that is rather unusual.

I'm familiar with several state-wide groups, two national groups and oodles of local groups around the nation. I've yet to run across one that did not advocate for MORE funding for education and BETTER public schools. Not to do so is patently ridiculous. Whatever that group is needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

[Pacifist Patriot]

38. *sigh* It's the old straw man argument time and time again.

Opting out of public school deprives the school of seat money. It does not deprive the school of the tax base to which the parents of the homeschooled child in the district contributes. But more importantly, why does no one look at the converse of this? The school is not getting the seat money because of the child's absence, but neither are they incurring the expense associated with the child's presence.

My school system would be crippled if homeschooled children enrolled come August. States and individual school systems are funded under varying formulas. The way my county works, the added expense the new children would cost the school system would not be made up by the additional seat money. In fact, a horrible shortfall would occur.

Also the way seat money is calculated around here, a child who is enrolled but happens to be absent on a census day deprives the school of seat money. Should that child be banned from extracurricular activities?

[redqueen]

43. It's obvious most haven't really thought about funding.

One might expect those without knowledge of an issue might seek it first, before assuming whatever they'd like to believe is true.

[Pacifist Patriot]

49. This is why I get so hot under the collar when it comes to this topic.

People that I usually consider open minded, progressive, intelligent and inquisitive shut down and echo misconceptions and misunderstandings without thinking it through first.

[Modem Butterfly]

64. You mean like folks who homeschool because of the racial make-up...

...of their school districts?

[redqueen]

67. Who does that?

[Modem Butterfly]

69. Sadly, you do.

[Pacifist Patriot]

73. Have you asked her to give you a fuller picture of the situation?

Or are you making assumptions based on one sentence she wrote?

[Modem Butterfly]

Oh, I think she's said enough on this topic.

I say again, "Yikes".

[redqueen]

77. Excuse me?

You apparently had some trouble understanding what I've written.

I do not wish to home school her based on the racial mix at the school. I wish to home school her, in part, based on THE INSULTS THAT SHE HEARS because of her race.

Does that clear it up? Or would you like to make any more ugly insinuations based on your limited knowledge of my posts here, so that I can further explain?

[redqueen]

78. And FWIW, at least I'm not getting worked up over sausage.

:evilgrin:

[Pacifist Patriot]

79. You must be referring to another thread.

I see one sentence in this thread and I would need more information. She may very well be the next Grand Wizard but I'm not going to jump to that conclusion because she is uncomfortable with her child being teased based on race. Would you be as judgmental if a black family wished to seek another educational option for their child because he was being teased for being black? Does it make a difference if his school is 98% white or 98% oriental? Race relations are a hell of a lot more complicated than your immediate indictment of this poster.

[Modem Butterfly]

90. Nope, I'm referring to this one

[Kraklen]

120. Easy to get confused.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3499267

[redqueen]

40. It's funded in a variety of ways, depending on the district.

Where the funding is alloted based on participation, or by the parents (and not enrollment), what is the objection?

I agree that if the funding is doled out according to enrollment, there is an issue to be addressed.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

142. Please explain

I keep seeing you say "where a school is funded based on participation". What participation would you be talking about? Participation in what?

[rinsd]

110. So what?

If the child isn't in the school, they're not incurring any expenses. Unless those formulas are all bullshit in the first place, what would the issue be?

If parents pay their taxes and then a fee on top of it I see no prob with homeschoolers getting involved in extra-curricular stuff.

[October]

140. Not in every state

In PA, we pay our taxes...and the school still receives funding...

I home school my daughter because she's pursuing ballet as a career. She dances 20+ hours a week.

It's been great. We choose her curriculum, and she even opted to do a report on Islam this year while studying World History.

She studies French, but added Russian (not available in our district) because she finished her Science Course early enough...and had time left before the year ended.

She tests online for her Geometry and French.

An evaluator (certified teacher) came to evaluate her year's work.

Next year, my daughter (15) will take Biology at our local Community College. She passed their tests and will be admitted as a special admissions student. I'm doing this because I cannot provide a science lab in our home...with any great ease.

We live in a tiny district. If she wanted to play a sport there, it wouldn't be a financial burden on our school at all...as there are only 5-6 kids in the district being home schooled.

We're a non-religious family. Secular. Too bad the NY Times article was so narrowly focused.

[Scout]

19. Why, if you don't want your child to go to public school

would you want them to go to public school to participate in sports?

What is so different about the sports that makes it ok, when the rest of the facility is not ok?

What's the reason for the exclusion of your child from public school? Principle?

[geniph]

24. The reasons are as varied as the people who choose to do it

and they can range from the isolationist freepbot who wants her kids kept in complete seclusion from EV-ULLL modernity to the Ph.D. who prefers the individualized attention and faster pace of her own lesson plan to the more homogenized one of a public school classroom.

All generalizations are false. (Yes, including that one.)

[redqueen]

45. Why do you care?

If it's not harming the children, what business is it of yours?

Is it really so hard to figure out? Teaching is difficult. The student is subject to distractions from the less intelligent children, violence from the bullying children, etc. However with sports, it's not quite so difficult. Is that a good enough difference for you? Or shall I think of more? It's not hard, you know.

The reason I want to homeschool my child is because it is the worst school in the district, she was choked in her kindergarten classroom (after which the teacher treated ME like a bad person for asking about the incident and rolled her eyes at me and walked away in the middle of a conversation), and, because of the racial makeup of the school, she is often teased for being white. Are those good enough reasons for you?

:eyes:

edit: emphasis added for those with reading comprehension problems.

[Scout]

51. it's not my business until you post it all over a message board

sheesh.

I wanted to know why, if you thought the school was so bad your kid could not be educated there, that you thought it was ok for them to do other things there?

So, your kid got choked in kindergarten class ... mightn't she also be hurt if she plays sports, or goes to art class with those same children? Why do you want to expose her to the worst school in the district for ANYTHING at all if it is so bad?

Get defensive much?

[redqueen]

76. I get defensive when people personalize arguments, yes.

Does that surprise you?

I've got news for you. Any parents reasons for wanting to home-school their children is no business of yours, no matter WHERE they assert their desire to home-school.

I already explained how the likelihood of her being negatively impacted would be reduced in extracurricular activities. For your information, sports is the last thing I'd want her to want to be involved with. We're not discussing MY children alone, here, you know. There are probably hundreds of thousands of home-schooled children impacted by this issue... why do you insist on personalizing it?

"Why do you want to expose her to the worst school in the district for ANYTHING at all if it is so bad?"

This is absolutely asinine. I can't afford private schools. I have to work full-time days right now. What CHOICE do I have? Why do you insist on personalizing debates like this? THAT'S what triggers defensiveness.

[Bridget Burke]

56. "because of the racial makeup of the school"

Oops. The mask slipped a bit.

Perhaps you ought to move to a neighborhood where "the wrong sort" is in the minority.

[Modem Butterfly]

58. Wow. That's really shocking.

I wouldn't have thought it of her. Seriously, I am very surprised and deeply disappointed.

[Pacifist Patriot]

61. *sigh* I can actually sympathize.

I attended an inner city Atlanta school one year in elementary school. I was one of four white children in the entire grade. Up until that point I had little to no concept of racial differences even though I had lived on integrated military bases. In my background it didn't matter what the color of your skin was, the rank on your dad's shoulder dictated playground dynamics. (Which is another can of worms I suppose.)

Looking back on it, I understand why I was treated the way I was and now that I am older I can sympathize with their anger. But I was terrorized and bullied simply because I was white. I went home in tears too many times to count. It was hell, especially for a child too young to understand what was happening and why.

The next year I attended another school in the suburbs that still had a black majority but the numbers were much closer. I'm going to guess that it was roughly 60% black. I never heard a single racial slur, students mingled amiably and skin color did not seem to be an issue. Students were more concerned with how well you played kickball or if you had the latest XYZ album. I was fortunate to have that experience. Had I continued in the first school I'm not sure I'd be the person I am today. Color blind.

Race relations continue to be a huge issue in this country, if not the defining issue. I can't fault parents for wanting their young children to postpone exposure until they are more ready to handle it. Perhaps its a good decision, perhaps it isn't. I just won't jump to the conclusion that seeking other experiences is by default indicative of racism.

[Modem Butterfly]

63. If your parents had chosen to remove you from the school...

...would you have wanted to play sports with those kids and their racial make-up?

[Pacifist Patriot]

68. I wouldn't want to play sports with anyone

who terrorized me regardless of racial make up.

[Modem Butterfly]

72. Hmmmm....

Interesting.

[Pacifist Patriot]

74. What would be interesting about that?

Would you want to play sports with anyone who had been terrorizing you? I'm thinking you've taken a turn in the conversation and forgot to bring me along.

[Modem Butterfly]

83. Actually, I got my threads confused

I had a neat bit here about property taxes and school districts, but it's a bit moot at this point because that's not an argument that you've made, AFAIK.

[redqueen]

86. Would you care to read that sentence again?

And perhaps reconsider your state of shockitude?

[redqueen]

80. Nasty, nasty... and misguided.

Read more carefully... that PHRASE was used to explain the REST OF THE SENTENCE:

"she is often teased for being white"

:eyes:

[Pacifist Patriot]

84. I wonder what the reaction would have been if you had said...

"she is often teased for being black"

[redqueen]

88. Oh it would be completely different, but I'm used to that.

When I complained about the constant nasty remarks my daughter hears, I was ignored, mocked, and lectured. Thankfully the principal is being replaced. We'll see how things go next year, I guess.

[redqueen]

104. Hellooooo? Care to retract that "mask" comment?

I'm waiting...

[Pithlet]

137. I take exception

to "because of the racial makeup of the school". She isn't teased because of the racial makeup of her school. She is teased because a group of children are teasing her because of her race. That has nothing to do with the racial makeup. There could be any number of schools with the exact same racial makeup and this wouldn't be an issue, for example. The way you are wording it make it sound like you believe it is because of the race of the children, and that indeed sounds very racist. Based on posts from you in the past, you don't seem racist to me. This could be an issue of poor phrasing, in which case you may want to clarify what you're saying.

[nonconformist]

141. Not harming WHAT children, though?

Not harming the homeschooled children, who are effectively getting the best of both worlds? Or not harming the public schooled children who are bumped off the team to accommodate the homeschooled children? Hmmm.

I feel for your situation and understand why you chose to homeschool (and probably would have too). However, I do have to wonder why a parent who pulled their child out of a school for bullying would want to put that child back into the same district's extra-curricular activities - alongside the same children, run by the same people who allowed the bullying to happen, in activities that often breed bullying and in situations that are even less supervised than classrooms. It doesn't make much sense.

[Pacifist Patriot]

54. I'll give you an example.

Time and time again we're told how school offers much more than just an education. It offers an education, socialization, sports, and other extra curricular activities.

My child would be hell in a classroom. His educational needs could not be met in the traditional environment. So we homeschool. And even though my son is a member of two homeschool groups, plays on a community league soccer team, takes music lessons, attends camps, has a group of friends in the neighborhood from the local school which keeps us so busy I can't keep track some times...I'm frequently reminded that my son isn't getting the proper socialization if he isn't attending school because he isn't sitting in a room with thirty other children his own age.

Well okay then. The school can't accommodate his educational needs but they can address his socialization needs. This is a good thing since during the time spent educating the children they probably aren't socializing very much. Right? So let's sign him up for the drama club and the football team so he can spend more time with kids his own age. Nope, sorry. You can't do that. We think your son needs our socialization but he isn't welcome here. If opt out of letting him languish in our classroom he can't have access to anything else your tax dollars pay for. Sorry!

[Bridget Burke]

70. Sounds like your son is getting plenty of socialization.

He doesn't need exposure to a "traditional" environment.

[Pacifist Patriot]

75. I'm confident of that.

But I still encounter people who are suspect of his "socialization" simply because he does not attend school.

[funflower]

129. Let's turn the tables: why should she send them to public school?

As we all know, it's boring, it takes a lot of time, and learning outcomes often aren't all that good. Why bother?

[nonconformist]

138. There are many reasons for the "exclusion"

But for starters, one can't really be "excluded" from something they willingly already opted out of can they? They already made the choice to "exclude" themselves.

Funding is a huge reason. For many school districts, the amount of funding they receive is directly related to enrollment and/or attendance.

The argument that being a taxpayer makes one eligible is simply ridiculous and brings up a host of other issues. What about people that, because of low income or unemployment, don't pay in any federal taxes? What about people that don't pay any property taxes because they don't own property? What about people who are delinquent on their taxes? Do their children NOT have the right to attend public schools?

I saw the argument that simply being eligible for enrollment should make a child eligible for public school resources (in the now locked thread). But if that extends to homeschoolers, does it also extend to children in private schools? Does it extend to drop-outs? Does it extend to non-enrolled low-income students being eligible for free and reduced lunch programs? Where do you draw the line?

I support the right to homeschool, but when someone makes that choice they have stated that they and they alone can provide their child with whatever they feel their child needs. If it's beyond their level of expertise or what they can provide, then they need to be prepared to hire tutors, pay for private lessons or participate in community-based activities. They can't have it both ways.

[LeftyMom]

25. I know that

I actually posted on the thread and being a good little DUer, I read the article first.

[dogday]

32. Hippies were homeschooling before the Religious Right.....

[Pacifist Patriot]

46. Most people were homeschooled before the latter decades of the 19th cent.

I would guess that most Americans really do not appreciate how recent the phenomenon of public schooling is. We've become locked in a "that's the way it's always been" mythic view of public school even though it has constituted roughly half of our nation's history.

Children in Barnstable, MA had to be taken from their children and marched to school at gunpoint in 1880. These parents were as opposed to school then as many are enamored of it now.

I find the resistance to the "pick and choose what you want from public school" idea interesting. Why not? Why shouldn't families be able to decide what aspects of the public school work best for their children and what they would like to pursue elsewhere? Because the way we run our schools now is the way they've always been run? Gee, with arguments like that why don't we hang up the notion of change and see how hard we can maintain a static march through time.

Don't misunderstand me. I am a staunch supporter of public schools. I think access to free education is vital for a democracy. I just don't think it should be the only option, nor is it a one size fits all solution for every family and every student.

ETA: Trying to put my finger on the stat, but I believe it is from one of Gatto's books. The literacy rate in MA was higher before public school became the norm than it is now.

[skooooo]

5. The thing that bothers me about home schooling...

...is that it contradicts the intent that Jefferson had in setting up the public system. The public system (until recently perhaps) has overall done a very good job at forming a sense of community and establishing the common American principles in society. Without some unifying and equalizing factor, I think our country will become more and more disjointed.

Admittedly, there are always exceptions and the public schools have problems. But I hesitate to say that we should throw away the priniciples that Jefferson thought was so important when he implemented the start of public education.

[redqueen]

10. I agree with you, however...

right now our schools are in crisis. I don't wish to throw the baby out with the bathwater, however I also don't wish to have my child get choked, insulted based on her race (she looks white), and otherwise be dragged down to the level of the lowest in our neighborhood simply because of where we live. (FYI, both of those incidents happened while she was in kindergarten. Thankfully she has not been choked again, however the snide remarks about her being a "white girl" happen far too often.)

[iconoclastic cat]

16. Sorry to hear that your system sucks. I work(ed) in one like that.

There is no way I'd send my kid to a regular (non-magnet) public school in Chicago. For that reason, I could easily see homeschooling her.

[redqueen]

47. I'm trying to get her in a magnet.

The waiting list, as you might have guessed, is LONG.

[skooooo]

26. Right...

..my comments weren't meant to address any individual's situtation. I was just making a general observation. More power to ya!

[Pacifist Patriot]

34. Well I'm not sure I'd give Jefferson sole credit for the public

school system. And I'd argue that whatever his intent may have been I sincerely doubt the results are what he intended either. That's a hypothetical argument though. You'll have to give me your source for his being responsible for what we have today. I'm more familiar with the public school movement of later decades in the 19th century.

I'd say school has done an outstanding job of forming a sense of community and establishing the common American principles in society. I'm just not so sure that sense of community and those American principles are necessarily the ones with which I agree. Textbooks throughout the years have reinforced racist stereotypes, made heroes out of men who made tragic decisions and fail to show the consequences of cause and effect.

I think schools do exactly what the wealthy industrialists expected them to do. Churn out a pacified labor force with just enough knowledge to enter a voting both...if they are so inclined.

[mzmolly]

81. Thomas Jefferson was homeschooled.

;) I think public education should be a priority and an option, but I also think that Homeschooling needs to be supported.

Also, we would certainly take issue with some of his "views" today:

Unfortunately, Jefferson's liberal views on the necessity and desirability of education did not much extend to women, blacks, or Native Americans. The authors of School and Society quote Jefferson as writing, "A plan of female education has never been a subject of systematic contemplation with me. It has occupied my attention only so far only as the education of my own daughters occasionally required." He felt women ought to have enough education to direct that of their daughters, and if need be, their sons "should their fathers be lost, or incapable, or inattentive." He did not believe blacks had the mental capacity to warrant much education and would always need caregivers. Although he had higher expectations for the Native American capacity to learn, Native Americans first and foremost must be taught Euro-American culture and give up their own before any attempt at formal education would be made (37-38).

http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/transcendentalism/ideas/edhistory.html

[bleedingheart]

109. he was also a wealthy american "aristocrat" who also took

the grand tour of Europe when most Americans his age were living a hard life....

[skooooo]

113. So we should throw his better ideals in the dumpster?

I don't think it's fair to judge people in the past by our standards, especially when there were contradictions in his behavior and writings. Just don't think it's that simple.

[skooooo]

112. Personally...I don't think...

...we can judge people in the past strictly by "our" standards. Never bought into that. No one is perfect. A hundred years from now, some of our common views that we take for granted will seem barbaric to future generations.

[mzmolly]

116. I agree, thus I don't think we can interject his opinions into this

discussion.

[skooooo]

118. It's not an opinion...

..it's a value. There is a value in people sharing a common foundation and education in American values and history.

[mzmolly]

119. It was a value for Jefferson that "white men" share a common foundation

in education, so called "American Values" and history.

Further, our schools today do not share much in the way of a common foundation other then the philosophy that children should learn to read, write, add and subtract. And, frankly that is not accomplished for every child. Also, we don't have one solid educational system for all children in this country, we have a flawed system where wealthy kids are granted a vastly different education than their "poor" counter parts.

Homeschooling does not counter the idea a.k.a. "value" that all children should be well educated and have an equal start in life.

[skooooo]

122. Ok well answer this then..

...if we can only interpret the value of someone's contribution by the purity and morality of their lives, then how can we learn anything from anyone? We are all full of contradictions. We all learn to take the best from what we find and try to do better. To me, that's the spirit of the Enlightenment.

Martin Luther King was a womanizer. So was Kennedy. Everyone has skeletons. SO what?

[mzmolly]

123. What does any of this have to do with Homeschooling?

Your argument was that Homeschooling was counter to the Jeffersonian philosophy that "white men" are entitled to a basic education.

You then said that because Jefferson lived X number of years ago, we can't take his position and apply it to today's world. I was trying to illustrate that as well, which is why I provided his position for review.

Either he is pertinent to this argument or he is not, I don't think he is personally.

[skooooo]

124. can't have it both ways..

..you pushed the discussion in this direction when you criticised Jefferson for not being a feminist. So either it is important, or it isn't. I suggest we just drop it now.

[mzmolly]

125. No YOU can't have it both ways. You stated that Homeschooling was

against Jeffersonian beliefs in equality. I pointed out we shouldn't use him in our discussion because the time he lived was quite different.

So, again I say he is not relevant to this discussion.
I'll gladly drop it "him" from the discussion.

[skooooo]

126. snippy aren't we?

dream on, think whatever you want. you're not interested in discussion because you twist people's words.

buh bye

[mzmolly]

127. Ciao.

I am not trying to twist your words, and I'm sorry if I came across as such. :hi:

[BluGrl]

107. I agree to a point

I wish I could allow my children to attend public schools but in my area, they are hardly what Jefferson had in mind and I feel that sending my children there is putting them at grave risk of injury. And they would be attending one of the better schools in the district.

Add to that the poor academic standards that almost put it on the state's probation list.

In any other situation, sending my child into such an environment would be considered child abuse or neglect. :(

[funflower]

130. Does this also bother you about private schooling?

[livinginphotographs]

9. I was homeschooled by my middle-class atheist parents for a period.

And look how good I turned out.

That said, I don't think that home-schooled students should be eligible for school-sponsored activities.

[redqueen]

11. Did you state your opinion in the thread on the extracurricular activites?

If so I'll ask you there... if not, then I'd like to know what the reason is?

[livinginphotographs]

20. Because they are not enrolled in the school.

Simple as that, just like I can't go to the school in the next town over and join their football team (that's completely hypothetical, I'd probably get beat up just trying to be the waterboy).

And I'm not touching that thread with a ten-foot pole. ;) Watching the flamewars are much more fun that participating in them sometimes. I don't really care much about this particular issue, but I do feel the need to step in every once in a while and point out that not all homeschoolers are fundie weirdos.

[redqueen]

48. Yes that seems to be the most common sentiment.

That's the one I call "bureaucratic nonsense". :)

[livinginphotographs]

65. Well, what if they were allowed to pick and choose classes?

Could they homeschool for history but attend school for geography? It seems to be the same thing to me.

Maybe I should move over into the other thread, after all.

[Pacifist Patriot]

89. See I don't have a problem with that.

But it goes against the grain of the prevailing paradigm so I imagine many people would be shocked and horrified by the thought. ;)

[redqueen]

93. Actually, it seems some districts offer just that!

I hope to see much more of this, since it seems it will only lighten some classroom loads.

[livinginphotographs]

95. It wasn't aware of this.

That seems to be opening up a whole new bureaucratic nightmare our public schools definitely don't need.

[Pacifist Patriot]

99. There is a county, in Washington state I believe, that does this...

supposedly it isn't any more of a bureaucratic nightmare than before they implemented the option. They started the program at the senior high level and had plans to roll it out in the junior highs at some point. I have no idea if that has been done yet but the last thing I read sounded like it was working out nicely for everyone involved. Thanks for reminding me that I need to go follow up on that.

[mzmolly]

66. Should they then be exempt from paying for such activities via taxes?

:shrug:

[livinginphotographs]

91. No, of course not.

If I don't call the police all year, that doesn't mean I get a refund on the taxes that went to pay for them. Just like if I remain childless, I still pay taxes for other people's kids to go to public school.

Still, homeschooled kids shouldn't be able to pick and choose what classes they can show up for either, and those in one school shouldn't be able to go participate in the activities in another locality. If it's a school function (which these extra-curricular activities are), it should be limited to those who attend the school.

I don't know if this is universal, but funding in my area is based on actual enrollment. Kids participating that aren't counted in that enrollment total cost the school money because it skews the funding. Seems pretty simple to me.

[Pacifist Patriot]

94. I'm not familiar with any school systems which base

funding 100% on seat money.

[livinginphotographs]

97. Not necessarily 100%.

n/t

[mzmolly]

102. But you DO have the ability to call the police right?

It seems pretty simple to me as well. If you pay taxes in the area, your kids should be allowed to participate in extra curricular activities.

[livinginphotographs]

103. My objection is more about picking and choosing activities

could lead to a call to pick and choose specific subjects. I would assume that it could end up being, as I said before, a bureaucratic nightmare.

Evidentally, though, I'm wrong, as another poster pointed out that this is being done in a school district in Washington and it's supposedly working quite well.

If that's true, I will gladly eat my words.

[mzmolly]

105. Interesting thought.

Thanks for sharing.

I did not know this was being done in Washington? Wow.

[Pacifist Patriot]

108. I'm still looking for the exact location.

What I read was by a high school English teacher in the system. If anyone else reading this is familiar with what I am talking about please chime in! Thanks.

[livinginphotographs]

114. I'm not saying I don't believe you.

I'm just saying that's where my objection came from.

[Pacifist Patriot]

144. Oh I know. I'm looking now for my benefit.

I'm very curious. The last I'd heard of it was from at least three years ago if not more.

[KittyWampus]

13. I know one friend who homeschooled her daughter in Ohio. She was Wiccan

and they were in a real conservative area. Also, her daughter was extremely bright and motivated to become a professional performer.

[kostya]

18. What's "Wiccan" mean?

[Scout]

22. Wicca is a religion

and a Wiccan is a practitioner of said religion. Some people say witch or pagan instead of Wiccan. It's a nature based religion that focuses more on the divine feminine than most other religions.

[Lilith Velkor]

139. Once it became legal

Every pagan I knew who had kids homeschooled.

[mondo joe]

27. I have no problem with this choice. I do have a problem with opting

out of the system except for the parts one wants.

[AlCzervik]

28. since you pointed out the wealthy part i'd like to add something

my daughter goes to a non-religious private school, we aren't wealthy. I've gotten a lot of shit here because i send my kid to private school just as i know when homeschool parents have also gotten shit.

[bicentennial_baby]

35. rock on!

I also went to non-religious private schools, from 3rd grade through 12th actually, and my parents were definitely not wealthy!

[mcar]

37. Thanks for this

I'm getting sick of these bigoted, judgmental threads on what is supposed to be a liberal board. Yesterday there was the diatribe against working parents (excuse me "breeders"), which included rants about how non-parents shouldn't have to pay school taxes and today we have the know-nothings offering up their opinions on home schooling.

Then, of course, we get the regular all Christians are idiots threads.

I wish some of these people would look up the term liberal. We're supposed to accept people's individual decisions, such as homeschooling, rather than disdain them because the fundamentalists seem to have the monopoly on homeschooling.

Granted, there can be problems with homeschooling but I know many people who are doing it because they do not feel the local schools can properly educate their children. And, yes, these children can participate in public school extracurriculars once they are in middle school.

Take a look at some of the wonderful educational materials available for homeschooling parents. They far exceed traditional public school curriculum.

I homeschooled my 7-year-old for the second half of 2nd grade this year because he was doing work he had done in preschool. It was an extremely rewarding, and frustrating, experience. That said, I am a working parent (excuse me, "breeder") and even though I work from my home, I don't really have the time to do both. We are working with the principal and guidance department at the school so that he will be accelerated by subject matter next year (a 3rd grader taking 4th grade math and reading).

Oh, yes and I'm Catholic, pro-choice, feminist, progressive and have had a successful business career without leeching off my co-workers for 25 years.

End semi-rant.

[dogday]

50. I lend my rant to yours...

Thanks for saying what I have been seeing. We cannot make this about hate and that is what shrub wants. To divide us. Religion is a good thing when it is not being used by individuals to advance their agenda.

Homeschooling is a great thing. The hippies started this, still weary of the system, and not wanting to deal with them and now they way they want to force their patriot beliefs and medication on our children will make you think twice...

[Pacifist Patriot]

57. I became very gunshy about the subject around here...

after I mentioned I homeschooled very shortly after I started posting. It wasn't even in a thread about homeschooling and what I said did not insult schools. However I was called an elitist bitch who was turning her uncaring privileged back on the rest of the children in America. That general sentiment was repeated twice before I stopped mentioning it on DU. I'm getting more confident again but I expect I'll hear it again sooner or later.

To hell with it. I'll say it. My children are going to get a far far better education at home and in their community than they would if they sat in the local schools for the next twelve years. That's my responsibility as their parent. I am a proponent of educational choice and the reason I am a Democrat is so I can work hard for a society in which ALL families have the opportunity to choose whichever educational option they feel is best for them.

[dogday]

60. If you are being judged like that, then there is a problem on this

side. Sounds like some have an infinity to stereotype and when we do that, we are no better than our counterparts...

[Pacifist Patriot]

62. I'm no exception.

I had my eyes opened to one of my misconceptions/stereotypes just this week. As long as we're willing to acknowledge it and explore it when it's pointed out to us than we are better. Cheers!

[dogday]

87. I am a firm believer if we don't come together as a nation,

and I mean both Republicans and Democrats then we can never take our country back. It is the Administration's intent to keep us fighting and separate and we better get over all of this stereotype stuff or we will continue the downward spiral of our country and constitution....

[Pacifist Patriot]

92. I agree. In a conversation with my sister over lunch I told her...

that I believed any future civil war would not be between liberals and conservatives but between the corporate structure/power elite and the people. I absolutely concur that it is in their best interest to keep us sniping at one another.

[mcar]

135. This is so true, dogday

We are getting into a very bad habit of stereotyping people around here and it does cause us to eat our own.

We all do things that annoy other people, it's human nature. But it really discourages me to see this bitterness from one "group" against another. And the jumping to conclusions, as with the homeschooling issue and any threads about Christianity.

Other posters have said this: a thread referring to Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, or Atheists as stupid sheep, fanatics and cultists would not be allowed on this board, nor should they. Why are all the anti-Christian threads allowed?

[redqueen]

96. I refuse to be gunshy...

the bigoted BS on this forum has to stop.

[youthere]

115. Mcar...You rock!

"I'm getting sick of these bigoted, judgmental threads on what is supposed to be a liberal board."

You just succinctly said what I have been noticing myself. Bravo.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

I am not a fundie, in fact I'm homeschooling (in part) to get the hell away from them. I'm also homeschooling because the budget cuts in this state (and my district) have dug so deeply into essential programming that now I can give them more resources than the school can. I homeschool them because I don't want them growing up thinking that evolution is only a "theory", that Columbus "discovered" America, and the lies of the abstinence only curriculum.

Well said Mcar.

[Pithlet]

143. I get sick of it too, and that thread made me see red.

I'll never forget the time I was exchanging PMs with someone who thought another newbie was a freeper, and one of the reasons they were suspect is the person was a stay at home mom. Well, I'm a stay at home mom! I don't think that person knew that. There seems to be an attitude amongst some (not most, but some) people around here that having kids is somehow a selfish, right wing endeavor. I don't understand it.

[ProfessorGAC]

41. Who Said Otherwise?

I was involved in the other thread. I didn't notice anyone making such sweeping statements that needed clarification.

The Professor

[mcar]

44. The thread in LBN had such generalizations

I don't know about the other one in GD. I just noticed it.

[Bridget Burke]

55. Homeschoolers may do as they wish.

But Texas is one of the states where schools are funded based on enrollment.

Those who wish to remain above it all should do so.

[redqueen]

98. "Above it all"?

What did you mean by that?

I agree that if funding for extracurricular activities is funded based on enrollment in the school, that that needs to change before any home-schooled students are allowed to participate. However the article which started the other thread states clearly that some districts are funded based on participation. In those cases I have no issue with home-schooled students participating.

[Pacifist Patriot]

101. See, this is the elitist accusation simply stated in different words.

You are making an assumption about homeschoolers when you say, "those who wish to remain above it all" that is dismissive, insulting and in many cases patently untrue. I don't appreciate you assuming my family's decision to homeschool is based on feelings of superiority.

[Maddy McCall]

59. I homeschool my kid...to keep him away from the fundies who are running...

the public schools here. They are even doing bible study in the classroom. :scared:

[redqueen]

100. That's not illegal?

I know, though... my daughter's teachers are always telling her about God... it's a nightmare.

Seems like we both have some pretty good reasons to homeschool!

[Maddy McCall]

111. It's definitely illegal.

But in South Mississippi, what can I do?

Yeah, there's no reason nowdays to be ashamed to be a homeschooler. The religious right controls the schools in the south, so, it's kind of like reverse migration. The fundies are migrating back into the schools and the libs like us are migrating out.

[mzmolly]

71. As a Homeschooling parent, I thank you! Homeschooling *came back with the

hippy movement in the 1960's. It's not conservative or liberal.

:hi:

Edited to correct as per feedback from proud patriot. Thanks.

[Pacifist Patriot]

82. Psssttt....

Homeschooling came back with the hippy movement in the '60s. ;)

[mzmolly]

85. Excellent point!

LOL I think I'll edit my post. ;)

[BluGrl]

106. Thank you!

I'm an atheist that would home school my children if necessary. Fortunately, I can afford an excellent private school.

Our local public schools are wretched.

[uppityperson]

117. I homeschooled mine for most of 1 yr.

Only public school class available was inappropriate and child was having too hard of a time, sick a lot, just didn't work. It was a difficult yr for us all, but it was better than the alternative. I was very active classroom volunteer during younger grades to give extra help in class, and sought out other alternative learning programs over the yrs also. Yes, people homeschool for a variety of reasons and the reason is not always simplistic.

[ClassicDem]

121. Some people assume that homeschoolers are...

just a bunch of fundies. My daughter is 3 years old and deathly alergic to peanuts, my wife and I are most likely going to home school her since even touching peanuts could cause her to go into a reaction that could kill her.

I would still like her to be able to participate in other activities I just can't take the chance of her coming in contact with peanuts through other children's lunches

[funflower]

131. Lots of peanut-allergic kids homeschool. Just too dangerous otherwise.

[Maru Kitteh]

128. Homeschooling is an option that turned my gregarious and enthusiastic

step daughter into a withdrawn, maladjusted teenager with zippo self-confidence and stunted social skills.

Her limited options have left her without direction and basically SCREWED for her future except as a proper Catholic baby machine which is of course EXACTLY what her mother intended.


That very personal example aside, as a photographer I can say that every single home schooled child I have worked with has been a bit on the odd side. They don't behave like normal teens, seem ill at ease with themselves and socially awkward. I'm sure there are exceptions, but frankly I would never roll my child's future on it. If the schools are really that bad - move. We did. Lost a freakin' fortune (at least to us) in the process but one really has to decide where your priorities lie. Our stepdaughters course was set by her psycho mom, but our other daughters education was our choice. At great personal sacrifice, we moved to a town where she could get a quality, safe education. I'm sure our decision was the right one with every report card. Next year she starts taking Japanese at the university while completing her senior year of high school. She learned from us how to take a stand and be an individual. She learned in school how to take those ethics and apply them while still getting along with others and operating well in society.

[funflower]

132. I've met lots of homeschooled teens w/ great confidence and social

skills (even around conventionally schooled kids).

Sorry about your situation. Homeschooling certainly doesn't have to have that affect. Perhaps there were some other contributing factors.

[funflower]

133. SSSHHHHH!!! Don't tell Michael Farris! He thinks they're all fundies!

[nonconformist]

134. I support the right to homeschool.

I wouldn't be above making that choice myself if I felt it was warranted for whatever reason.

When someone choses to homeschool, they have chosen to be responsible for their child's education and social development themselves. They have stated, under no uncertain terms, that they can provide their child with what they feel their child needs on their own. Academically, socially, artistically and financially.

[leesa]

136. My nephew and two neices are being ruined by homeschooling. It's

so sad. They can barely function in public and their education is very patchy. They also have no aspirations. One's goal is to work at WalMart like her Aunt.