Forget about Hitler/Nazis, Buscho is the friggin' Inquisition!!

[frictionlessO]

Alright, so a bunch of libs have made thier voice heard to their compatriots. We are now to self censor ourselves in regards to Hitler/Nazi remarks. Fine fine fine FINE! I get it Ive gotten it its not that its not true in regards to 1933-34 its that peoples memeories think of 44-45 in these regards, fine got it.

It is fascism, so Mussolini comps are ok! No, you all dont get to take that away.

Yet fascism is still too dirty a word for most of America regarding our 1933 version of you know who. Whilst Bushco may or may not have designs on destroying entire segments of peoples and their respective cultures, many of his base are of that mind. Do not kid yourself about that, they are racists and prejudiced to the point of wanting to nuke Mecca. "Lets just glass 'em"... I've heard that literally hundreds of times in the last 4 years. Small minded and selfish and basing their outlooks off of their own corrupted, perverted ego driven version of Christianity... and whats more they want that for you too.

So I thought "gee, what other nasty slaughter of innocents blighted humanity in such a way that I can get my point across without referring to anything about Nazi/Hitler so as not to offend"

The answer is the Inquisition... just think about how you can play with that!! Bushco IS the friggin Inquisition. Just think of how it plays in the subconscious regarding Gitmo, Bahgram, and Abu Ghraib!

I've gotta go but please tell me what you think!!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

1. Whose rules are those, that no Nazi comparisons can ever be made? I say

call a spade a freaking spade.

[frictionlessO]

7. I agree in essence but there is the consequence of losing possible

converts, and hwether we like it or not we need as many of those converst as quickly as possible in order to save many more lives...

but yeah... Im there.

[Cleita]

9. Well, the converts won't be won unless we drive what is

really happening home to them, simply and frequently. This is their own propaganda technique that they laced the kool-aid with. The only difference is that our propaganda is the truth.

[frictionlessO]

13. Very very true, but we do have to win them. The Hitler/Nazi thing is

losing them from us and while I have no doubt that in time they'd be forced to confront the awful truth... well we're getting short on any kind of time.

Further explaining that there are valid similarities only muddies the concept. I mean I've tried very hard and often... but as much as I want to call him Hitler and his quislings brownshirts, the truth is I just want to win more people over more than anything else.

Our propaganda is the truth... without a doubt and please look at the similarities for what Im proposing here .

Thanks!

[Cleita]

17. Hate to disagree with you, but they managed to convince a

whole bunch of Christian freepers that torture is good and God is a war God. Why shouldn't we try to drive home to them that Hitler/Satan is residing in our White House now? Hitler has all the right comparisons to throw at them. Fascism is, well, so friendly and I don't think they mind being called fascists. As a matter of fact their next propaganda move might be that fascist is good because it's not communist. No thanks. Hitler works for me.

[frictionlessO]

21. Surely it is still ok to disagree?? Im more than fine with it.

I was just stating where Im coming from with this is all. Oh those crispy Christians don't have an inkling of what a real war god is like... Funny thng about angry vengeful gods they always hurt the ones who love them just as bad as their enemies.

Seriously thugh if Hitler is it for you than there is nothing I can say or do that will change that, I respect your position.

peace,
(may it come soon)
fric

[MadisonProgressive]

34. The problem with comparisons is

you can always find something to invalidate the comparison, thereby invalidating the message. Bushco's crimes stand on their own!! We need to point out the SPECIFIC crimes against humanity, the American people, and the US Constitution that have been perpetrated by this rogue administration. We must point out things that will not be refutable to our targeted converts.

[Pacifist Patriot]

2. Or better yet, use Bush's own words since he finds them easy to utter.

It's a Crusade.

[frictionlessO]

8. Exactly what my wife said on the way home!

I see no reason why we can't call them crusaders, except people don't really get what was wrong with the crusades (ala superman and selective history lessons).

[jobycom]

3. Bush is Hitler. nt.

[happyslug]

4. No, the Inquisition always wanted facts

Now the Inquisition would execute you for being a Protestant, Jew or Muslim (Or other enemy of the Church or Spain), but they demanded some proof of that crime BEFORE THEY TORTURED YOU (Torture under the Inquisition was more to get you to confess to a crime they already had evidence against you for, than to get evidence. Torture, while used, was NOT viewed as a good way to get evidence, or more exactly accurate any true evidence.)

No, Bush and company do not want to give you the rights you had under the Inquisition, the better view would be the various "Witch" Hunters of the same time period. Such "Witch Hunters" had been popular for centuries but really took off during the Protestant reformation. Now I once say a Catholic bible talk about Witch Hunters and they happily pointed out Witch Hunting happen overwhelmingly in Protestant countries as opposed to Catholic Countries. I laughed when I first read it and commented, "Yes, the Catholics had the Inquisition instead". Than I thought about the two and decided I would preferred to be hauled in front of the Inquisition instead of a Witch Trial for the Inquisition needed Real evidence to convict me, while the Witch Trial only needed "Spectral" Evidence. Such "Spectral" evidence could be as little a someone screaming I had harmed her by Witch Craft.

Thus while you are on the right time period, you have the wrong court. It is the Witch Hunters of the 1600s that Bush wants back, Witch Hunters that he can set on any of his enemies but can not be used against him (For Bush will control them through his control over their budgets). Bush thus wants Witch Hunters who will go after people he wants them to go after, but not his friends and does not even want such accused to have the rights of someone hauled in front of the Court of the Inquisition.

Some sites on the Inquisition:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/SPANINQ.TXT
http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/inquisition.asp
http://biblia.com/christianity/spanish.htm
http://biblia.com/christianity/index.html
http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Dossier/2002-02/article.html

[frictionlessO]

6. hmmkay, pretty much agree except that the Inquisition only had hearsay

not "evidence", at least not all the time...

However you seem to be fairly astute in your studies in these manners.

The verbal ammunition you provided is in essence "they are worse than The Inquisition", yes?? Hell that works more than suitably for me!

Witch Hunters though... right on. Thanks for you very learned outlook!

[happyslug]

43. That is true even today

If I went to Court and said i heard the Defendant plan to kill someone, that statement is hearsay, it is also reliable evidence of a plot to kill someone. In many cases the only way to connect someone to a crime is by the statement of third persons, such testimony is perfectly acceptable today. If someone says I saw the Defendant rob me, what evidence do I have beside my testimony? If he had deposed of the money (Which is often the case) the only testimony is a person's statements.

The same with the Inquisition, if someone testified that X commented heresy, that is often the only evidence you had. From the records it appears that the Inquisition wanted more than such statements, and often discounted testimony of know enemies (Just like today regarding crimes).

My point is the Inquisition just like today's courts, often use just testimony to prove that a crime has been committed. How much weight you give to such testimony varies from Judge to Judge. Furthermore under Canon law you can always have a appellant court rule on the facts of the case (Unlike Common law Appellant courts where such factual review is generally forbidden). We may disagree with the crime the Inquisition was trying, but lets NOT confuse the procedures with the underlaying crime. The procedures used by the Inquisition seems to be as fair and equitable as any trial today, our dispute with them is NOT the procedures but that we no longer hold heresy as a crime. Please note the same statement can NOT be made of the Witch Trials of the time period, the admittance of spectral evidence permitted people to condemn people just by yelling ands screaming and saying someone was hurting them. This was NOT acceptable to the Inquisition but perfectly acceptable to the Witch Trials of the same time period.

[frictionlessO]

48. Excuse my profanity but...

Fuck, you're very smart! What you said is very very true, and the advice of not confusing procedure for the crime. Thank you for your instruction, I found it both valuable and without flaw.

I will bear this lesson in mind from here out.

[dxstone]

36. One of the better films on the subject of witch hunting...

Was "The Conqueror Worm", starring Vincent Price (also titled The WitchHunter General, I believe). Unlike most of the Hammer and Shepperton Studios films of that era (early 70's), this thing had REAL teeth, and featured one of the most gruesome depictions of an innocent (and a woman to boot) being burned, ALIVE, at the stake. I saw it as a kid at the drive-in; a couple years ago I located it on video and saw it again, and it held up really well, considering...
Scary stuff indeed.
This whole debate on what we can and can't call butch and his neocon wolfen brethren disgusts me; if there IS a future human history, it will show conclusively that these guys made Hitler and his ilk look like absolute AMATEURS.
d

[Synnical]

5. Hmmm . . . a quick search for crimes of the inquisition

led to this:

<snip>

When an inquisitor arrived in an area he called for reports of anyone suspected of heresy, sometimes offering rewards to spies who would report suspected heretics. Those suspected were imprisoned to await trials. The trials were held in secret and the inquisitor acted as judge, prosecutor, and jury. The accused had no lawyer. It was often simpler to confess to heresy than to defend oneself, especially since torture was often employed until the accused was ready to confess.

Because church and state had not been kept separate, the church powers could call upon the government to use its power against the convicted heretics. Anyone who fell back into heresy after repentance was turned over by the Inquisition to the regular government to be put to death. Most of those condemned to death were burned at the stake, but some were beaten to death or drowned.

<snip>

Will Durant informs us that in 1521 Leo X issued the bull Honestis which "ordered the excommunication of any officials, and the suspension of religious services in any community, that refused to execute, without examination or revision, the sentences of the inquisitors." Consider Clement V's rebuke of King Edward II: "We hear that you forbid torture as contrary to the laws of your land. But no state law can override canon law, our law. Therefore I command you at once to submit those men to torture.I

When the inquisitors swept into a town an "Edict of Faith" was issued requiring everyone to reveal any heresy of which they had knowledge. Those who concealed a heretic came under the curse of the Church and the inquisitors' wrath. Informants would approach the inquisitors' lodgings under cover of night and were rewarded for information. No one arrested was ever acquitted.

http://la.znet.com/~bart/inquis.htm

<snip>

Torture was considered to be essential because the church felt duty-bound to identify from the lips of the victims themselves any deviance from sound doctrine. Presumably, the more excruciating the torture, the more likely that the truth could be wrung from reluctant lips. The inquisitors were determined that it was "better for a hundred innocent people to die than for one heretic to go free".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now change "heresy" and "heretic" to "Terrorism" and "Terrorist" . . . .

[frictionlessO]

10. THATS what I'm saying!! Its essentially perfect framing and much better

than the Hitler/Nazi thing because it is safely distanced in time but still extremely well known (and not in a good way at all).

There are nothing but parallels, However as a poster stated above the Witch Hunters should be talk of with more certainty as to torture and imprisonment without cause or trial!

[Auntie Bush]

19. Wow, that is scary! Not much different from bush* cabal policy.

Between bush*, Rethugs, Patriot Act, Christian Fundamentalists and Dodson types we are well on the way! :scary:

[lonestarnot]

11. Nah... a spade is a spade and a nazi a nazi... bushitler is a nazi

and an antichristo!

[frictionlessO]

15. All's Im trying to do is find a reasonable alternative meme here...

The sooner we get past this little bump with most sides sorta ok, the quicker we can get to proving how like Nazis they may be in a court of law.

That's all Im saying...

[lonestarnot]

18. Fine by me... but I will continue telling the truth.

[frictionlessO]

23. Okie dokie!

No hard feelin's right?

[lonestarnot]

41. absolutely no hard feelings.

[dxstone]

12. And NOBODY expects the Friggin' Inquisition!

:crazy:
d
ps: I STILL think the Hitler and fascism comparisons are perfectly legitimate!

[frictionlessO]

14. That was your 666th post!! You are EVIL!! lol!!

Just joking, of course.... and I am just trying out a meme so to speak.... an alternative to use with the public and certain sensitive moderates on an individual level.

C'mon work with me here.

[dxstone]

29. LOL! I LOVE it!!!

HA! That IS good... and rather apropos as well...
Have you by any chance seen my site?

President Evil Online
http://presidentevilonline.com

I like to think it's the hardest-hitting horror/humor political parody site on the web...
('Course, I also like to tie a blanket around my neck and jump off the roof ala Superman...)
Wee sample here for ya... somethin' brand-new, a future-news scene we all CAN'T WAIT to see...



If ya fancy that, please do stop in and have a look about; I've got a million of 'em...
d
ps: Great post, dude!
pss: I usually wait til' I pick this stuff up by context, or look it up... but my dictionary's a bit old, and this one has eluded me context-wise, so, if ya don't mind: What the heck IS a meme, anyway?

[Just Me]

16. Bush is the "cover" for a corrupt corporate tyranny which exploits people.

He doesn't compare to former corporate tyrants since he serves as the "coverboy" for multi-national corporations which impose their will upon people around the world, including the American people. They are global robber barons who deliver human misery to greedily profit themselves. BushCo & the neoCONs sponsor these global tyrants while Bush is simply an advertisement to induce the American people into giving away what they would otherwise hold onto.

[frictionlessO]

24. Yes yes and very true!

But I am only trying to reframe this particular meme for myself (and maybe a few others). Its actually amazing with soem of the similarities between the Inquisition/Witch Hunters and the BFEE.

Im also trying to have a wee bit of fun doing this, because it is such a depressing thing all the way around.

[orpupilofnature57]

27. I think your talking more about his supporters or facilitators. Shrub is a

Daddies boy at best, the old man is the " EVIL ONE"

[Peace Patriot]

37. Hey, frictionlessO! Don't be depressed!

"...because it is such a depressing thing all the way around." --frictionlessO

The corporate news monopolies are trying their best to trumpet these fascist, Inquisitional, bigoted, McCartyite nutso ways of thinking as some sort of big surge of the rightwing.

It's not so. It's a delusion. And it gets into the brains of even the smartest among us.

The VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS reject these views. Consider these statistics:

63% of Americans disapprove of torturing prisoners UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
Nearly 60% disapprove of the Iraq war, and a poll today said 80% want the US out of Iraq.
You name the issue. Social Security. The federal deficit. Bush's foreign policy in general. Bush's domestic policy in general. 60% to 70% of Americans disapprove of it.

The rightwing is a minority--always has been, always will be.

It's in the interest of the war profiteers who control our air waves through monopolistic practices to promulgate these scary people and their darkly scary views and tactics. But Americans aren't buying it. It is not changing the mainstream American view, which is tolerant, peaceful, law-abiding and generous.

And when you really study the 2004 election evidence, it becomes very clear that the majority of Americans rejected Bush and voted for Kerry. There is really no other way you can read this volume of evidence. (The numbers just don't add up. Bush lost--big!)

Be heartened. Our problem is that the majority cannot gets its will enforced. THAT is the problem--not these typical scaremongering, scapegoating Christians who have always been with us, and always will be. (--it's a bad gene in the human makeup, but it is not predominant, and it is in fact progressively going away.)

This is not to say, don't fight injustice. We must! And it is not to say, temper your language so as not to be telling the truth as you see it, or just to try to convince stupid, brainwashed people. (A quite good case can be made for the Hitler analogy, if one is familiar with that history--although our nations, Germany then, and the USA now, are quite different--the US is much, much harder to control, much bigger, much more various, and much more liberal-minded, in truth.)

I'm just saying: consider the news monopolies and how they are brainwashing us all. Detach yourself from the illusions they are trying to foist off on us--one of the chief ones being that the rightwing is in the ascendancy. It's quite demonstrably untrue. What they are doing is giving power to these type of views far beyond what their numbers merit.

[frictionlessO]

40. Wise council indeedy! That is just what I needed to hear... and ya know

when I first started feeling crappy again?? When I gave the news networks another chance last week because of everything that was happening.

Wow I think some of us might just be seriously psychologically allergic to Corp Media.

You are such a good minister! I wish you and yours lived out my way, liven things up a bit!

[bpilgrim]

20. imperial japan is a better analogy, IMHO

they wanted to bring peace, prosperity and security to a particular region of the world via GEACPS very similar to our current policy in the ME right down to UNLAWFUL COMBATANTS.

i wish that comparison was used, but it NEVER is... why?

peace

[frictionlessO]

25. Too deep in knowledge also they are not white so a lot of Americans

would have trouble making the connection (a portion of the white ones anyway).

I used Hirohito as an example a couple of times before and it goes over peoples head quicker than wind.

[orpupilofnature57]

22. Torquemada or Goebbels, could learn a thing or two from Kkkarl, Shrub,Dick

PA-PA, RUMMY, McSane and all the rest of the dysfunctional band. What a legacy it will be!

[frictionlessO]

26. Wretched and twisted souls they are....

It is a struggle to find any compassion for them at all.

[frictionlessO]

28. No one else wants to comment?? I mean I know the grammar and spelling

are atrocious but... well I was hoping for more thought and input on this.

Help a Fricster out and comment.

[Synnical]

32. DU does have Spell Check

Ya know . . . :)

:hi:

[dxstone]

30. Additional kick, and NOM!

This deserves to be seen by more than a handful of people, imho...
d

[Synnical]

31. Playing with words - see post #5

When an inquisitor arrived in an area he called for reports of anyone suspected of terrorism, sometimes offering rewards to spies who would report suspected terrorists. Those suspected were imprisoned to await trials. The trials were held in secret and the inquisitor acted as judge, prosecutor, and jury. The accused had no lawyer. It was often simpler to confess to terrorism than to defend oneself, especially since torture was often employed until the accused was ready to confess.

Because church and state had not been kept separate, the government could call upon the justice system to use its power against the convicted terrorists. Anyone who fell back into terrorism after repentance was turned over by the Inquisition to the local government to be put to death. Most of those condemned to death were given a lethal injection or “disappeared”, but some were brutally executed using the Electric Chair.

Will Wannano informs us that in 2009, Jeb the First issued the Executive Order DisHonestis which "ordered the firing of any officials and the suspension of any governmental services in any community that refused to execute, without examination or revision, the sentences of the inquisitors." Consider Jeb the First’s rebuke of British Prime Minister Galloway: "We hear that you forbid torture as contrary to the laws of your land. But no country's law can override our law. Therefore I command you at once to submit those men to torture.”

When the inquisitors swept into a town an "Edict of Faith" was issued requiring everyone to reveal any terrorism of which they had knowledge. Those who concealed a terrorist came under the curse of the Government and the inquisitors' wrath. Informants would approach the inquisitors' lodgings under cover of night and were rewarded for information. No one arrested was ever acquitted.

Torture was considered to be essential because the government felt duty-bound to identify from the lips of the victims themselves any deviance from sound doctrine. Presumably, the more excruciating the torture, the more likely that the truth could be wrung from reluctant lips. The inquisitors were determined that it was "better for a hundred innocent people to die than for one terrorist to go free".

[dr.zoidberg]

33. Brilliant.

You've already invoked Godwin's law. And it occurs in the subject line. That's a record.

Come on, Bush=Hitler? Where the fuck does this come from? What's next, BUSHHITLETBURTON and all that other assorted nonsense?

[orpupilofnature57]

35. Hitler had to work to become a megalomaniac, Shrub got it for graduation

And the over simplified method of reasoning , is defiantly similar.

[dr.zoidberg]

47. Well, I've got my own theory.

The only reason Bush was selected to run was because of his name. Now, the Dems saw Bush as not being the brightest bulb out there, so they may have thought cakewalk. Unfortunately, they forgot about what a political party can do when it's been out of office for 8 years. The Repub mobilization machine is rather impressive. That ans it helps when your candidate is not taken seriously by the opposition. And we all know how that turned out.\

Can the Dems rebound? Sure they can. They have been setting up a voter mobilization scheme similar to the one that the Repubs have. We'll probably see it in '06.

Another thing, we desperately need better candidates. When I think of presidential material, I don't think of Bush #2, Gore or Kerry.

[frictionlessO]

38. Say dont you post at FR?? I just saw the same username on another post

here at DU of a post from FR???

Thats a wee bit odd??

[dr.zoidberg]

46. Nope.

Never been there. The BUSHHITLERBURTON thing was a running joke from the DVDVR boards.

[frictionlessO]

39. OMFG!! You guys nominated this?! Thats just silly...lol.

I must say there are really diverse comments here, Im proud of DU.

I think I will start using "The Friggin' Inquisition" (with Witch Hunters) instead, its just as apt and was as horrible as any other long running atrocity.

Cwazy Wabbits! (where'd ya put the keys?)

[Algomas]

42. Sorry to burst your bubble but...

Most Amerikans have no clue what the Inquisition is. They have the mental candlepower of a sleepy cow. No wonder the copthugs are tasing them left and right- they need to be jump-started just to get their attention.
What a bilge filled barge of riff-raff Amerika is. We are being bravely led over the cliff by con-men and psychopaths and we cheer them on.

SUPPORT THE TROOPS...or else!

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Peace Patriot]

45. Algomas, please read my post (#37) above.

You are talking about a people who voted overwhelmingly to oust the Bush Cartel despite the most pervasive and relentless brainwashing effort since, well, Hitler's Germany; a people who saw through all the B.S. and came out in droves to vote (giving the Democrats a blowout victory in new voter registration in 2004, nearly 60/40!); a people who are desperately trying to signal what the "will of the majority" is through opinion poll after opinion poll after opinion poll against Bush and every major Bush policy, foreign and domestic.

You greatly underestimate the American people, and think of the worst examples of the species and use that as your template. I think you are wrong and have, in your own way, succumbed to corporate news monopoly and rich elitist propaganda, for it is THEIR view that Americans are stupid, lazy, self-indulgent consumers and yahoos, and they try their damnedest to portray us that way, and to turn us into just that. The truth is that most Americans work very hard, sometimes with two and three jobs, to make ends meet, take responsibility for children and the elderly, and for their communities, have a laudable sense of fairness and justice, are extraordinarily generous, and are also overwhelmingly progressive, liberal and tolerant ("live and let live") in their views.

Currently, Americans are being systematically disenfranchised, exploited and robbed by the Corporate Rulers in every way imaginable including shoddy schools, lack of health care, assaults on unions, outsourcing of jobs, destruction of natural resources and pollution of the environment, the uglification of cities and towns, predatory pricing, the utter corruption of our political process and our election systems, and the outright theft of billions and billions of dollars that ordinary people have paid into government for the good of their country and their communities.

We are being targeted specifically because we have the power to rein in these predatory capitalists--to regulate them, curtail them and stop them from preying on ourselves and others. We have a history of trying--often successfully--to do so, on any number of issues from the environment to tough labor laws to safer automobiles to fireproof children's pajamas. One of the biggest demonstrations against global predators occurred right here in this country in Seattle in 1999. It is no wonder that these Corporate Rulers wanted to take away our right to vote, by privatizing and controlling our election system.

From what I can see, Americans are an intelligent, creative, and also a very practical people, who have TRIED to create a fair society--and the most amazingly pluralistic society on earth--despite every effort by rightwing demagogues to stir racial, tribal and religious hatred.

Americans need bucking up right now. They are feeling powerless and disenfranchised, and are suffering many kinds of oppression. We need to look to our best and most courageous selves to deal with this Bush Cartel fascist coup. It doesn't help to be called "riff raff" and "bilge." I can understand your frustration with the few Americans whose views are allowed on TV and radio and in the corporate press. But I urge you to consider who is controlling those venues, and how few Americans ever get to express who they are or what they believe--almost none of them.

[Algomas]

49. Of course there are awakened people all across this land...

but I have to say that in my daily encounters, I very rarely meet someone who has a clue. Most Amerikans live in fear and ignorance.
I have posted repeatedly, a call to protest the attack on PBS with a nationwide 4th of July march to save Big Bird. The response has been silence. Even among DUers, there appears to be no appetite for direct action. It is much safer to protest by email I guess.
It looks like we get the government we deserve.