A liberal case for homeschooling and private schools

[bluestateguy]

In some cases I think liberals ought not to be so quick to dismiss home schooling as an alternative. What if religious fundamentalists take over your local school board and school district? What if you live in a very intolerant part of the country where you as a "different" student would face harassment and intimidation? I would also like to see liberals and their benefactors start to more aggressively build their own private schools where fact based science is taught, sex education is frank and open, social studies are taught with an appreciation for the diversity of our country, and without jingoism, elective courses in non-western civilizations and the creative arts, fully unionized employees and discipline is handled on a case by case basis (no "zero tolerance" nonsense). Scholarships could be offered to underprivileged students who show academic potential.

But bluestateguy, what about the public schools? Why do you want to abandon them? I don't. I oppose vouchers for private schools. I support the public schools and want to see them succeed, but the public schools are not the answer to everything. In places with poor public schools, it can take many years to turn things around, and it's not fair to the kids to make them wait several years for new laws to be passed. And why should private schools and homeschooling be the strict province of the Right? Also, think about this: when right wing parents take their kids out of the public schools for private schools or homeschools they leave the public school community. That's one less set of nutjob parents meddling in the affairs of the public schools and one less brainwashed kid that the other students have to deal with. If right wing or racist parents want to take their kids out of the public schools, I say we should hold the door wide open for them.

[cynatnite]

1. I don't think I'd do a good enough job to homeschool my kids

I live in a religious conservative area and the only private schools available are religious ones.

If a private school were to open here that focused more on learning without having to bring politics and religion into the mix I would definitely be interested. While it would hurt the pocketbook, I would do whatever it took to give my kids a better education.

It's bad enough at the schools here because I do think they bring their religious right attitudes into the classroom. My daughter will be a sophmore this fall and they have yet to discuss Martin Luther King.

[funflower]

15. Gee whiz! My kids learned about MLK in preschool!

[bluestateguy]

17. I was 6

But that was in California.

[funflower]

29. Thank God for blue states!

[cynatnite]

39. I do my best to educate them at home, too

I keep a lot of documentaries around plus I'm always looking through the channels such as Discovery and History to help bring to light other things that I think are important that they should know about.

I've got two bookcases full of books with a variety of themes. Some are history, science, sociology and other subjects. I try to get them to ask questions. The little one doesn't read yet, and it's a nightly ritual.

[mzteris]

44. sounds like

you're already homeschooling!!! :)

Now, if you can stop wasting all that time doing "homework" (read helping the little dears memorize those teach to the test "facts" that they have to regurgitate so teacher can get her bonus) - you'd be amazed at what you can really accomplish.

Children are natural born learners. School just usually beats it out of them.

Hi, I'm a homeschool Mom and I'm a liberal!

(Ok - I homeschool one and the other just finished Kindergarten at a Montessori Charter school. I'm not "anti-school" - but it doesn't work for everyone - and not every school works - period. )

There are a lot of liberal homeschoolers - we just don't get the press the fundies do. And their "organizations" act like they INVENTED hs'ing.

We tend to be more an "eclectic/child-centered/free-form" type - "THEY" tend to do "school at home" - school in a box, canned curriculum, etc. AND they use the most egregious "religion based" curriculum. Lots of Bible Study and learning to be good wives and mothers (subservient) and plenty of creationism-based "science". BLEH.......

You can do it! Never doubt it. There are so many resources available - the net is amazing by itself and that's only a small part.

[teach1st]

2. I'm a public school teacher and I support homeschooling

With one caveat:

I see too many kids hurt by homeschooling. Too many. The kids I've seen who have returned from homeschooling to public schools are years behind my students, using many different measures. Often, these kids were taken out of public school due to a political reaction, but with the parents having no real plan or commitment to homeschooling. It can be a lot of work. Of course, I don't see the successfully homeschooled come back and when it's done correctly, homeschooling is great.

General advice to all: If you're going to homeschool do it right. Think it through and have a plan. Don't take your child out of school until you're ready.

[funflower]

12. I hear this a lot from teachers (HS kids are behind when they return), yet

a number of other measures seem to suggest that at least many HS kids finish ahead of average. Do you think it is possible that HS kids tend to develop more slowly academically at first but then blossom during adolescence?

Or is it that the kinds of measures taken in an elementary classroom (curriculum knowledge)are different than those that are applied to teens (SAT scores)?

[teach1st]

19. I don't know

I've been in elementary so long, my knowledge of high school kids (outside of raising my daughters) is pedestrian.

I do think that it's possible that elementary-aged children respond to and depend more on instruction than high-schoolers, so that a motivated high-schooler might be able to learn regardless of instruction quality.

Does that make sense?

[funflower]

26. Yep.

[JuniperLea]

52. It makes perfect sense to me.

I think the younger children benefit greatly from being around other children and developing social skills. When I was in HS, I was so upset over the lack of quality teachers that I rebelled and demanded to be placed in continuation school with the "bad" kids. I basically schooled myself using the same text books, maintained a B+ average, passed all the tests, and had plenty of time for surfing:)

[bicentennial_baby]

3. I went to a progressive private elementary

It's run by the Northeast Foundation for Children, and its focus was on developmental age as opposed to chronological age, as well as a host of other progressive teaching methods...I was lucky.

[SoCalDem]

4. How many Moms can afford to quit their jobs and stay home anymore?

I would have flipped out if I had had to teach my sons.. :) At least one of them is smarter than I am too:)

[Quakerfriend]

5. I think you may be buying into the stereotype a bit.

I am very liberal and my kids have gone to the public schools, parochial schools and an elite private school were the kids were hand picked from among many applicants from all over the world.

Last year I decided to home school my 12 year old. We enjoyed it very much. However, because of the need for me to care for my mother, he will be returning to the public school next year.

My reason for homeschooling was that 1) his private school is closing down and he was on scholarship and we can't afford another private school 2) I did not want to deal with the 'issues' that come with public schooling, ie, vaccinations, rule of giving kids info to the gov't AND 3) What I consider to be a total loss of moral fabric within society.

Many folks are homeschooling these days. Not just the fundies.

[funflower]

7. I think concerns about vaccinations are driving some serious liberals to

withdraw from the public schools and go elsewhere.

[DefenseLawyer]

9. No offense

but the "total loss of moral fabric" jargon sounds pretty fundie to me. Exactly what information about your child do you not want the government to have that would be surrendered by a public school student?

[funflower]

16. Hello. Let me guess that "Quakerfriend" is not excited about the NCLB's

requirement that schools turn over her child's contact info to military recruiters. Just guessing.

[Mythsaje]

18. Probably a Quaker, judging by the nickname

and they, as much as any of us, have earned the right to their moral convictions...since for as long as they've been in America, they've stood for peace, freedom, and democracy.

Of all the Christian religious sects I respect the Quakers the most.

[DefenseLawyer]

22. Meant no disrespect

was just asking.

[Mythsaje]

23. And I'm just guessing

but it's a good guess.

[funflower]

30. Me too. Quakers walk more than they talk.

[Cats Against Frist]

6. I wish there were liberal co-op schools

I would rather not send my child to school with the riff-raff, Christian fundamentalists or consumer slops. I believe in private school and homeschooling, because I am an elitist -- much like Thomas Jefferson, the philosophers of the Enlightenment and everything good and liberal, pre-Marx-fucking-it-up.

I'm dead serious.

[funflower]

10. There are a few starting up around the country. Very exciting! Even some

public charters are experimenting with alternative ed ideas.

[beyurslf]

8. What parent is qualified to teach Algebra, Biology, World History,

English, and foreign language for a high schooler? What Teacher would be qualified to teach all of those? If someone wants to home school a 4th grader, fine. We should all know the things that 4th graders learn. But advanced math, history, english, language, and other topics in high school need to be taught by professionals trained in those areas. Not to mention socialization skills and community workings--where does this happen in home schooling?

[prvet]

13. kids can learn at home with online Teacher support

Check these two out

http://www.laurelsprings.com

http://www.oakmeadow.com

[funflower]

31. Welcome to DU, prvet!

:hi:

[funflower]

14. People don't teach all of this stuff themselves. They find opportunities

for the kids to learn it outside of the full-time school environment. Not too tough to find a class or tutor or some other opportunity for kids to learn this stuff outside of the regular classroom.

[Mythsaje]

20. There are many subjects I consider myself qualified to teach

even to the higher grade levels...

...but math isn't one of them.

[HockeyMom]

21. That was my point on another thread

A teacher at the High School level has to have a Master's degree in a specific subject; English, Biology, Math, etc. The government was complaining about English teachers who were teaching other subjects without having the necessary background (major) in a particular subject. Yet, they say it is fine for a PARENT who only has a General High School education to be able to home school a high school student on ALL SUBJECTS? Look it up? The parent starts from scratch and then is supposed to TEACH the child? Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

I will give you an example. My daughter is taking a summer college course in Spanish and she asked me for help. Even though I have an Associates Degree, work as a TA, it's been 30 years since I took Spanish in HS. I remember almost NOTHING. I would have have to sit down with her text book and more or less RELEARN it myself. Yet, I would be able to help her? Imagine if she were taking German? LOL

As somebody else said, beyond the primary grades, unless you yourself are a teacher, I cannot see how it is better. At some point in time, won't the kid realize you don't know anymore than they do?

[Mythsaje]

27. I'd have to study up on terminology

for English--but I'm a writer, so I know the language pretty well.

Teaching can also be guiding the student to seek information him or herself...which SHOULD be the real focus of teaching in the first place--allow the student to learn how to learn, how to seek out and find information, and how to re-distribute it so as to inform others. There is no reason a intelligent, reasonably educated parent couldn't teach their child to do this, and learn a lot in the process themselves!

Now, I don't recommend that cud-chewing fundy hillbillies try it at home, but liberals tend to be a wee bit smarter anyway. :grin:

With all due respect to your degrees and your college learning, it doesn't take matriculation in the hollowed halls of academia to make a educated person.

[HockeyMom]

33. Sorry, I still don't think it is possible at the High School Level

Far too many subjects.

[Mythsaje]

38. With exterior help...

...like internet learning...

Sure it is. Doesn't mean it would be easy, but it could be done.

[funflower]

35. The cud-chewing fundies are hopeless regardless of where they go to

school...!

[funflower]

34. I think most teachers have a Masters in Ed. and a BA/BS in a substantive

academic subject. Generally, you only need a couple of years of college work in an academic subject to teach it in a secondary school (say you have a BA in History w/ a minor in English - you can probably teach both). Also, I don't think you need to have completed your M.Ed. to start teaching but a lot people get it eventually.

[Tsiyu]

41. There's the fear....

The adult must be the "Master" of the student. But setting a 13-year-old kid free with a stack of books to do research that would put most college students to shame is a bit like a mama bird watching the baby bird take off in flight.

Some adults have this obsessive need to "know" more about all things than someone younger than they are. This sense of superiority holds them steady as adults. But the day will come when all good students should outperform their teachers if the teachers are any good.

There are too many kids who are not allowed to "fly" as far as they might because their intellect and interests aren't "mainstream" and easy to quantify by the adults who measure such things.

Institutions rarely produce or acknowledge or discover genius precisely because genius threatens those in charge.

Just my opinion, as one who used to think she always had to "know more" than her kids...

[rinsd]

51. A masters degree is required to teach high school subjects?

Are you sure about that?

[Tsiyu]

40. Many parents have advanced degrees

and almost all of the courses you mentioned can be taught via computer. Many times the "professionals" teaching history around here are coaches, not exactly passionate about the subject matter.

As for socializing, it has never been the normal process of human socialization (at least in this person's view) to spend the majority of one's time with ONLY one's peer group. We don't train animals that way. But go to any library or museum on a weekday and you'll see that there are plenty of kids being homeschooled and they form groups and socialize as well as ( and often better than) public or even private school students.

Many homeschool students are also members of Scouting and CAP and various other organizations for young people. There are so many choices now as a parent; homeschooling is just one option but it works for many people and their kids.

[LeftyMom]

42. The kind who can read

Really, when I can't stay ahead of my son on a subject (which would be if he decides on a foreign language I don't know- at four his Spanish is already better than mine, and any math past algebra, or any science past biology or chemistry, although his father may be of greater help in teh sciences) we can always send him off the the local community college for a class or three, find him a tutor or mentor with greater knowlege, or get a relatively self-instrucional curriculum and learn along with him.

Socialization occurs in the family and the larger community, just like with schooled kids. Maybe things are different now, but way back when I was in school we got in trouble for socializing outside a few staged attempts at making us do group work. My son visits with some combination of the neighbors, the maintainance man, the ladies at the grocery store, customers and vendors who drop by my office and our family's friends before the schooled kids are home for the day. That community socialization is much more real and applicable to adult life and adult work than that of thirty kids of the same age working on the same assignment and supervised by one adult- a situation I never encountered after high school.

[mzteris]

45. oh puhleeze

**Not to mention socialization skills and community workings--where does this happen in home schooling?**

:rofl: :rofl:

How "socialized" is a kid stuck in a room with the SAME kids day in/day out in the same age +/- one year. Assigned seating. Raise your hand to go to the bathroom. Having someone tell you who you can sit next to at lunch - and have "silent lunch" because of the ill-behaved kids in the class, etc. Hall passes. No talking. No recess.

My son has more diverse interactions - age, race, sex, than any PS kid. He's in the "real world" more than they are. He interacts with adults, older kids, younger kids, peers, with ease. (Except he does have little tolerance for ijuts......)

As for being "qualifed" - my high school Chemistry teacher was a "math major" - and knew diddly squat about Chemistry......

There are programs, videos, books, online schools, tutors, co-op classes, friends, etc..... you name it. My son wants to learn Chinese - fine - we take a class. He's currently learning Algebra and Chemistry - one online and the other with a textbook. (Btw - he's 11.)

You really have to get to know the kids in the HS community. They are such a varied bunch but much more able to function on their own than any PS kid I've ever met. Colleges are increasingly seeking out hs'ers. They are better prepared for college than high school kids. HS kids are used to being self-motivated and self-directed. They don't wait for the "teacher to tell them" what to think/know for the test. Also, they are generally more independent and capable of dealing with the freedom of college, as well as better equipped to deal with the diversity they encounter. (Of course I'm talking about the liberal HS'ers - not the fundie ones... lol)

[Mythsaje]

11. This is why I really support the charter school concept

now if some of the left-thinking folks would take up the challenge. It will really screw with the right wing agenda.

[teach1st]

24. Problem with charter schools...

..in Florida at least, is that they are bound by NCLB and our FCAT, which measures a very narrow area of learning. Charters here are getting shut down (some deservedly) for their low scores.

It's a problem that can be overcome with planning and teamwork among a school's faculty, but it can put a crimp into what many of us believe is real, even holistic teaching and learning.

[Mythsaje]

28. No Child Left Behind

is a piece of legislative idiocy...

[ulysses]

25. I'm not opposed to homeschooling,

although teach1st's caveat is important. I'm not opposed to private schools, either.

However, a liberal *movement* like you're talking about *would* take time and energy away from improving public schools, and even if you did offer sufficient scholarships to "underprivileged students who show academic potential", there are still going to be millions whose academic potential is run-of-the-mill or worse, or simply less well expressed, who are going to be stuck in the public schools whose turnaround time just got longer.

[Donailin]

32. I dunno, I rasied my three kids to think critically

I spent all of my time with my kids educating them in one way or another. Whether it's religion, philosophy, politics or culture my kids know as much of the truth as I know. A day doesn't go by that I'm not informing them one way or another. If a parent thinks critically, the child will too and therefore be well armed with information, logic and concepts in any school.

I think that parents are the best educators and if they do their job -- that is trust that thier child can think things through to their logical conclusion based on what we know of psychology and history -- their kids will overcome any BS some teacher may attempt to impart.

[jzodda]

36. No way this concept is no good no matter if you leftie or rightwing

Homeschooling is terrible concept. All it does is keep division alive. These poor kids get a warped view of the world drilled into them and help to create just another generation of zombies.

Their parents just do not get it. Having their children in school helps the kids and the community. They deny their children the community and they deny the community their children. I am a firm believer that both the child and the community at large can learn from and benefit from each other. Locking them away helps nobody but the selfish parents.

Now the debate is to let these homeschooled kids be able to play football and stuff. I do not know about you but I would be damn angry if my kid got bounced off the team for some kid that does not even go to the school.

Homeschooling=disaster in the making. We as a country already are becoming more and more isolated. People do not know their neighbors, people are less involved in their communities. This just adds to the problem

[Tsiyu]

43. Funny how two people view the same thing

I view putting children behind those imposing school walls (and many resemble prisons, these days) as essentially "locking them away."

I would like to see a balance of school and community-based teaching. That school building is not "the community" to me. The community is the sum total of your town or city. I like to see young people involved in businesses and agriculture and all the other facets of community life, not chained to desks where they don't learn how to interact.

And I raised solid Dems, so please do not insult this former homeschooling mother by calling my kids Zombies.

My Dean's List student will kick your butt...;)

[nonconformist]

37. Plenty of radically left parents homeschool

I even considered it. I also wouldn't hesitate to homeschool if, for a number of reasons, I felt that my children would receive a better education at home. My kids are fortunately getting a great education at their public school. However, I am very involved in their education and recognize my responsibility in that area. In a sense, I feel they have the best of both worlds.

I totally think it's possible to support public schools and the right to homeschool at the same time, so I agree with the points you made. I do not support vouchers. I do not support homeschoolers using public school resources in any way - which I only mention because I think discussion about that might have prompted this thread. But I definitely don't stereotype all homeschoolers as religious fanatics. I've known of too many radically left parents that have chosen homeschooling to ever think that.

[Tsiyu]

46. If those parents pay school taxes

what is the beef? A homeschooling parent already uses the system, because they usually have to answer to some administrator in the system and that person earns a salary.

I think it is absolutely stunning how we want to shut kids out of opportunity for one reason or another. It used to be because you weren't the right color or religion. Now, it's because your parents want to take charge of your education themselves? We punish you, little kid, and deny you the services your parents helped pay for because....why?

When the community and parents and educators start working TOGETHER (hahahahaha) kids will have a better chance of making it. As long as we place hurdles in front of kids, we only hurt ourselves as a society.

Dumb. Dumb. Dumb....IMHO

[nonconformist]

48. The "beef" is valid

Being a taxpayer isn't the litmus test. What about people that, because of low income or unemployment, don't pay in any federal taxes? What about people that don't pay any property taxes because they don't own property? What about people who are delinquent on their taxes? Do their children NOT have the right to attend public schools? Not to even mention that in many states, school funding is determined by enrollment and/or attendance.

"We're" not punishing anyone. When a parent choses to homeschool, they have chosen to be responsible for their child's education, social development and whatever else they feel their child needs themselves. They have elected to take on the entire burden, including the financial burden. That *is* homeschooling.

Is it reasonable for a homeschooler to demand that the public schools provide their educational materials too? Is it reasonable to expect a public school student to be bumped out of an activity to accommodate a homeschooled child? If a homeschooled child has that right, does that right extend to a private school student? Does it extend to a drop-out? If not, why?

I think it's absurd.

[Tsiyu]

49. Well, our definitions of "absurd" do diverge

With your logic, poor people shouldn't use the roads or bridges or sidewalks, either.

That which *is* homeschooling is defined by the jurisdiction. Some systems will be progressive and others will be regressive. I say, do what's best for all students and you will have a thriving community of cooperative, literate people.

Or, work against each other and have enmity, division and kids left behind...

[nonconformist]

50. I don't know where you got that from

Since I was the one who pointed out that being a taxpayer isn't the litmus test. It's enrollment.

My questions went unaddressed, but I'm not too shocked. Nobody has been able to answer those questions who supports this ridiculousness.

[deacon]

47. How can an unqualified teacher (mom or dad) provide a quality

education? If just 1/4 of the effort that bush put on his misguided SS plan had put on improving education or congress puts forth on who's going to be the next judge we would have a plan in place to to move forward to modernizing our educational system.