"Fend for yourself!" Florida sexual predators banned from storm shelters.

[Bluebear]

Now I am not a fan of sexual offenders; having said that, if they have served their sentence, is it just the liberal in me that sees something inhumane about letting them just be left outside to die in a hurricane?

====

TAMPA - Hillsborough County is following Seminole County's lead in keeping sexual predators away from public hurricane shelters.

Hillsborough commissioners unanimously voted Wednesday to approve the recommendation from county Sheriff David Gee.

"They ought to fend for themselves," Sheriff Gee told commissioners during a budget workshop Tuesday. " I don't think we should spend a buck on them."

http://www.tampatrib.com/FloridaMetro/MGBTO89F0AE.html

[MemphisTiger]

1. Jeez, are they any less of a human being?

I agree, if they have paid for thier crime, let's not keep the scarlet letter on them, or leave them for dead in a hurricane.

[Bluebear]

2. What other worldly mindset has taken over Florida? n/t

[madeline_con]

128. I don't know what state (or country) you're in....

but I'm sure it has pedophiles.

Do nothing if you like, some of us work to protect our kids.

[Bluebear]

159. "Do nothing if you like, some of us work to protect our kids."

edit

[BiggJawn]

20. That puts you in the minority.

Most people believe a few things are engraved in stone:

ALL "Sex Offenders" are child molesters
Sex Offenders can NEVER be "cured".
Just because the State says it's over, doesn't mean that it's over.

And yes, I've seen these attitudes on display HERE.

there is a man near where i live who is sueing his neighbour because he's letting his recently-released-from-prison brother stay with him for a month. The suit alleges that it's "dangerous" to allow the children to go outside, thus this neighbour's action constitutes a "nusiance".

The brother says "I made a mistake. I thought I paid the price society wanted for that mistake. But am I going to have to pay for this until I'm 80???"

Seems that way.

[ecstatic]

36. Do you honestly think a pedophile can be cured?

Or that s/he will have the discretion to leave children alone during a hurricane? The mere fact that they would think of harming children in the first place shows that their ability to distinguish between right and wrong is severely impaired.

I can see it now... "Gee, I see the light now. Raping 4 year olds is not a good idea. What was I thinking?"

[MemphisTiger]

58. Should we shun all that have comitted crimes in the past?

I shoplifted when I was a child, am I allowed in the shelter? That alone shows my inability to know right from wrong. If you lay something down, I might take it. This idea of shunning people we find "sick" is keeping these people sick. These people obviously need therapy, but what reserch is going on now to combat this disease? I guess funding to help these people is not seen as financially viable. Also, we get to kick them around without regret, right?

[ecstatic]

63. comparing apples to oranges

shoplifting is nowhere near the same as pedophilia/rape.

[MemphisTiger]

71. It's still wrong

my point is that you seem to think that one wrong action defines a person for the rest of their life.

[madeline_con]

129. It's not one wrong action...

It's mental deviation from the norm that makes the individual a danger to the most vulnerable in society. And it's incurable.

[podnoi]

134. Madeline, don't buy the "Talking Points", Please read up >>>>>>

Do a search and find out the real points. You have been listening to the hysteria.

Here is one credible source.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/newhope.html

[madeline_con]

158. "You have been listening to the hysteria. "

I've been listening to my heart and my conscience.

Thank you for the advice, but where MY children are concerned, better safe than sorry.

I've had quite enough of perverts, thank you. One woman, whose father is a registered offender, followed my 8 year old around taking pictures of him until I finally threatened her with bodily harm to get her to back off.

The man who was my son's reading teacher in 1st grade was recently areested for having sex with male students, one of them EVERY day after school except Thur. for two entire school years. He attended staff meetings on Thursdays.

My feelings are not based on hysteria, but experience. :)

[podnoi]

177. I understand and have also had experiences

Once at 5 when I was fortunate my mother caught the guy before anything serious happened. The other as a teen where I had enough wits to flee.

The guys you described are *repeat* offenders. For them the recidivism rate is high. But overall I just can't get caught in the trap of becomming a freeper and being reactionary. I would still rather see society actually find solutions rather than striking out blindly. It is not about tolerance, but wisdom.

If I react with violence I become as they are. If more Justice is needed it should be brought about in a reasoned and unemotional way. And I also want to keep my sense of forgiveness. If an offender truly has changed, as once again the facts, not the hype, say is possible, I would prefer not to heap anger at them in vengance. It damages me and society more to do so.

Just my 2 cents

[MemphisTiger]

189. How do you know it's uncurable?

I'm not trying to be combative here, but that's a quite a statement without any evidence to back it up. Care to prove your statement?

[sojourner]

117. Sexual predators

really are a different sort of "bird". The wrongs you list are "normal" sorts of crimes for which your time in jail should be seen as "paying the price". But sexual predators cannot stop themselves from repeating the crimes. Until I read that they can be effectively prevented (whether by therapy or other treatment) from repeating their crimes I can't view them the same as other criminals.

Keeping them out of storm shelters seems a little extreme though. Maybe set aside a secure area and allow all sexual predators to wait it out together, apart from their potential victims (who don't have to be minors, BTW). Just my opinion.

[podnoi]

125. Well then Read this, don't buy into the media FEAR >>>>

Let's pull away from the media induced fea frenzy and get some information from respectable sources.....

One major obstacle is public misconceptions about recidivism, Hanson says. "Even when we're talking with law enforcement officials, they'll guess demonstrated rates to be in the 70s or 80s, so real rates of 10 to 20 percent surprise everybody," he notes.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/newhope.html

[MemphisTiger]

182. Yet our criminal justice system regularly turns out these

sexual predators to the public without any type of therapy process. In my opinion, if a person is convicted of one of these crimes he/she needs to go to jail and get some serious therapy for this type of behavior. Otherwise, we will see it happening again, probably. But we make ourselves feel better at night by putting a scarlett letter on these people, who can't help them selves IMHO, so long as they aren't in my storm shelter. If they have done their time, no matter the crime, treat them like a responsible member of society.

[BiggJawn]

82. See what I'm talking about?

Say "Sex Offender" and people IMMEDIATELY think "CHILD MOLESTOR"

a better example I could not have provided.

Thank you.

So you think it's OK to leave them out in the storm?

That's disgusting.

[Blue_In_AK]

92. Thank you for saying that...

I keep making that point here -- Child molesters are a subset of the universe of "sex offenders," and their psychological dynamic is different. It is grossly unfair to lump all sex offenders into the same category.

[madeline_con]

130. So you think it's OK to leave them out in the storm?

Absolutely. Thay have enough warning before the strom make landfall to leave.

[Horse with no Name]

86. All sex criminals aren't pedophiles

Some just exposed themselves, etc.
I know a guy that I went to high school with that was 19 and dated a 16 year old.
Her parents got mad because he dumped her and filed charges.
He is now a sex offender.
I agree--let the pedophiles and rapists rot in hell.
But the others? I don't think one-time poor judgment should make you have to die in a hurricane.:shrug:

[madeline_con]

131. Some just exposed themselves, etc.

O.K. then, I don't want some weirdo "just exposing himself" to my kid in a shelter, either! GEEZ!

[Warren DeMontague]

141. And the 18 year old who made the mistake of dating a 17 year old?

And the parents decided to file charges? Maybe because the guy was, say, the wrong color?

Or some drunk dipshit might have taken a leak in an alley outside a bar or a baseball game and gotten arrested for "exposing himself". Now, is that rude, anti-social behavior? Certainly. But does it make him a sexual predator or pedophile? Not unless you want to cast a net over pretty much every male who's ever spent any time plastered in a bar..

Are those guys 'some weirdos', too? Should they be left out in potentially fatal, 200 mph winds?

GEEZ, yourself. These kinds of "lets get tough on the dirtbags" laws and stances always sound good- after all, who likes sex criminals?- but then the reality is that they almost always end up getting mis-applied and enforced on the wrong people. Time. And Time. And Time again. You pass a "three strikes" law in California to lock up the scumbags would would kill a kid like Polly Klass -certainly a noble sentiment- but what is the reality? The guy who steals a piece of pizza or a movie from blockbuster ends up with that as his "third strike" and now we're paying to lock him up for life.

Those aren't hypotheticals, they're reality. I suggest that people take a real deep breath before jumping whole hog onto knee jerk reactionary bandwagons like this one.

[madeline_con]

156. I'm sticking to my guns.

I don't care who dated who, or what they peed on.

Like I said, I don't want to split hairs at the shelter door.

Let's see, did he show the kid his entire penis, or just the tip of it? Raped, or *just* fondled?

They have time to leave the state, if they don't want to be out in it. That's what those of us who don't want to stay do. Maybe the point of this is to encourage them not to stay.

[Warren DeMontague]

157. So you don't make any distinction between a child molester

and someone who takes a leak in an alley?

Between a rapist and a high school senior with a girlfriend who is a year younger and has pissed off parents? (Shit- by that definition, I guess *I* was a "sex offender", too, back in the day- good thing the statute of limitations has run out)

Wow, well, I do. I also think Jaywalking isn't a "crime" in the same sense that hacking someone up with an axe is.

If that's "splitting hairs", shit, call me a hair-splitter.

[madeline_con]

165. After Jessica Lunsford was raped and buried alive

I heard a lot of criticism about 'crazy' Floridians not being able to keep track of offenders.

Now, someone does something about it, and we're crazy for that, too.
Now we have degrees of offense that have to be argued.

If someone is concerned that they may not be allowed in a shelter, they have plenty of time to leave the area.

[Warren DeMontague]

167. It's amazing to me that you can talk about the rape and murder of a child

and a case where some debutante's parents get pissed off and report her 18 year old boyfriend in the same sentence- as, and I'm quoting you here, "degrees of offense".

You really, really seem to think I'm defending people who abuse children, which is about as offensive an assumption as I've ever had anyone make about me. If you want to argue with people who cover for and defend pedophiles, I suggest you call the Vatican.

I'm questioning the logic of laws that, while they may sound well-intentioned, make the shmoe who got caught peeing outside the wrong bar a "registered sex offender".

Either you don't want to talk about that, you're incapable of hearing what I'm saying, or you honestly think that an 18 year old who has sex with a 17 year old is, in some "degree", a dangerous sexual predator- as is any man who ever leaned up against a brick wall in an alley to take a leak.

I suggest you read my post at the end of this thread. That's really my last word on the subject.

[rodeodance]

108. good, long term therapy has been said to 'cure' --yes, it has . just do

the research.

[BiggJawn]

184. Did you know that the term "Sex Offender"...

Covers SO much more that Pedophiles?

Yeah, maybe you do, but it's more fun to use the RW tactic of "You don't agree with me, so you must either LOVE pedophiles or you're one YOURSELF!".
Don't hold your breathe waiting for the customary "Oh, *I* don't like pedophiles, either" statement out of me. I won't give you the satisfaction of backing me into a corner like that.

It doesn't matter. What matters to me in this discussion is that they have served their prescribed prison term. If YOU think that's bullshit, then perhaps instead of arguing with me, you should be lobbying your congresscritter for "stiffer penalties" for pedophiles, like oh, I dunno, maybe DEATH for a first offense? maybe they'll extend that to cover all sex offenders, so somebody you know who got caught with a whore will get death, too.

[Walt Starr]

101. IMO, they should have to pay for their crime until they are dead and burie

[BiggJawn]

185. Then contact your congresscritter, Walt.

Tell 'em you want DEATH for all first-time offenders. And make that include the people who get picked up for "Public Lewdness" and the old guys who get arrested because they weren't as far behind that bush taking a leak as they thought they were, and the 19-y-o with the 15-y-o girlfriend, and...

[hobbit709]

3. Who's next

You start here and then you make more distinctions. Next it will be the poor, minorities, the elderly, non-churchgoers or even Democrats.

[Bluebear]

4. "First they came for........"

[RPM]

8. i am sure there are shelters in some areas that would turn away blacks

unless, of course, it was a star player for the 'noles.... :eyes:

[Bluebear]

9. And gays. They are bad for "shelter cohesiveness"

:crazy:

[slor]

10. LOL...

must not allow the gays to jeopardize "shelter population integrity".

[ecstatic]

23. If so, that would be a worthy issue to focus on

Not the turning away of convicted pedophiles and rapists.

[madeline_con]

132. Why does somebody always start the "who's next" ...

alarmist hand-wringing, thinking their traffic ticket will bar them from the shelters?

[Chipper Chat]

5. What about murderers and thieves?

I assume they are welcome in the shelters. Mass hysteria over this issue has gotten way out-of-hand.

[lostnfound]

6. What's crazy about this is it probably has opposite effect as intended.

Lots of orphans and dislocated people out on the streets after a big natural disaster.

[acmavm]

7. How 'Christian' of these people.

.

[fishnfla]

11. I think its a damned good idea

1. The article clearly indicates that in Seminole county they are given their own shelter. Believe it or not, there is discrimination in just about every shelter. In some shelters, pets are welcome,in some pets are not, some shelters are for handicapped only(there is even a special one for blind people here), some shelters for elderly, some for nursing home residents, etc.

2. Many schools are shelters. I am opposed to letting sexual predators inside schools at any time. Bad idea, IMO

3. I think that beyond that its foolish to think that any sexual predator would use the confusion and disarry of a storm, you know power out, lives disrupted, people exhausted. I dont think any criminals would see an opportunity to do any thing wrong....:eyes:

4. I dont understand, when the Schiavo mess was front page, people in this forum were like, 'little children are being abducted raped and murdered all over Florida, why dont they do something about that instead?'
And so the state and county officials do something about it, and then people weep for the perverts. What gives, y'all?

[Bluebear]

12. "and then people weep for the perverts."

Yeah I reckon I weep for someone who could die out there.

[fishnfla]

16. and if a child is raped and murdered during a storm at a shelter

you would laugh?

[GiovanniC]

17. If a Person Who Has Served Their Sentence

is killed in a hurricane for a crime that they have served their time for, will you laugh?

[ecstatic]

19. Rape/pedophile sentences are too light

Those people belong in jail for life, assuming the case is airtight (and not another case of racism/classism).

[GiovanniC]

21. The Proper Sentence Is Death by Hurricane, Right?

[ecstatic]

25. Bingo!

I'm with the Repugs on this one. I'm much more sympathetic to murderers than rapists/pedophiles. It takes a sick, sick mind to think of harming a child or forcing one's penis into a woman.

[Bluebear]

What happens when the DNA evidence exonerates him posthumously?

[ecstatic]

32. Well, thats the problem

Unfortunately, race and wealth play such a huge role in who is convicted of such crimes. I'm sure there will be instances where a true pedophile, who was never convicted/caught, will be allowed in a shelter, while someone who was wrongly convicted gets turned away. I hate that our justice system works this way. However, if someone is truly guilty of the crime, I will not shed a tear if they are left "fending for themselves" during a hurricane. You and I both understand that every action we take has consequences.

[Eloriel]

116. And just how often does THAT happen?

And just how often does that happen versus all the rapists and child molesters who are:

a) never reported
b) never identified
c) never arrested
d) never prosecuted
e) never convicted
f) actually do serve time but then go on to molest/rape again?

The vast majority of these crimes go absolutely unreported. Those that are reported don't typically result in arrest, and those that are aren't always tried and for those that are, convictions aren't necessarily guaranteed. That means that the vast majority of these types of criminals go completely free.

Just how many posthumous exhonerations are you aware of? What's the percentage of of those or ANY exhonorations, posthumous or not?

Mutter, mutter. I do NOT understand why DU has so many people who basically come to the defense of perverts and rapists (if only by minimizing or trivializing the crimes involved), sometimes going to ridiculous lengths to do so -- such as this. Some of them work in the sex industry :eyes: Do you?

[GiovanniC]

179. At Least You Can Feel Safe Knowing

That your hurricane shelter will be devoid of the 18-year-old who had sex with his 16-year-old girlfriend, even if it's chock-full of never-reported, never-identified, never-arrested, never-prosecuted, never-convicted rapists and pedophiles.

[GiovanniC]

33. This Just In: People With Sick, Sick Minds Must DIE

We will not agree on this issue, I don't think. I do not want to defend pedophiles, and I wouldn't mourn if they died *on their way* to the shelter, but to turn your back on anyone whose life is in danger goes against what I believe in.

[madeline_con]

135. On their way?

So, if a nice family's driving in the pouring rain, and runs over the guy, that's o.k.

SWEEEEET! I like that, too.

[GiovanniC]

180. Works For Me

I won't lose any sleep over that scenario, in the case of an *actual* pedophile/rapist.

[fishnfla]

28. I took care of myself and my family during 3 hurricanes

why cant they?

[GiovanniC]

30. Then Why Have Shelters At All?

Guess nobody needs them, if you didn't.

[fishnfla]

35. see post 26

more needier people than myself use them.

more important people than some child rapist, IMO. Read the article, they get their own safe house

[GiovanniC]

38. Needier People?

But you took care of yourself and your family through three hurricanes. Why can't they?

My point: a person who has been convicted of a sexual offense, and who has fully served the sentence lawfully imposed upon them, should not be forced to die. In some cases, turning someone away at the shelter means you are condemning them to die.

[fishnfla]

48. You are being ridiculous

If you dont understand the concept explained in that post. The shelters are for people who need them more than we do. The authorities during storms clearly tell us go to one only if told to evacuate or you have special needs.

Did you read the article? They are not being turned away. THEY HAVE THEIR OWN DESIGNATED SHELTER, like alot of people. The evacuations are planned ahead of time, its part of everyones hurricane plans, knowing where to go. There is time to prepare for them. Disabled people go somewhere special, people with pets have certain places, and now the sexual predators in Seminole county have their own place.


Christ, I give up. Logic and facts never seem to win out. No wonder bush is president

[GiovanniC]

54. I Agree

Logic and facts never do win out, and neither does human compassion.




"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
-- H. L. Mencken

[fishnfla]

60. I so very glad that child rapists get their own shelter

It sounds like a very safe place. I'm not so thrilled that DUers are bending over backwards in concern for predatory monsters who sexually abuse young innocent children and women.



There's your fucking compassion

[GiovanniC]

68. You Don't Have to Be Thrilled

But some people here on DU think killing people, either actively or passively, is wrong except in extreme circumstances such as self-defense. I've also seen enough to know that not every single person who is convicted of a sex offense is an actual danger to society or even an actual sex offender.

[Evergreen Emerald]

75. What are you talking about?

How does this idea in any way translate to killing people? The facts indicate that society wants to protect vulnerable children from people who want to stick their dicks in them. So, in a time of chaos and vulnerablility--a perfect opportunity to prey--they are sent to a shelter where their victims are not allowed.

And again with that bogus argument that those who commit sex offenses are not sex offenders. What? Peeing in the street / indecent exposure are not sex offenses and do not require registration.

No where in the article does it suggest killing people.

[GiovanniC]

79. Never Mind

This topic is just way too charged for anyone to approach it without a knee-jerk reaction... I'm not just referring to you, but also to myself.

If everybody is adequately taken care of and all lives are protected during a natural disaster, even those who are "the lowest among us", fine.

But I am too close to this issue. I am a very close family friend to a little boy who could have been considered a "sexual offender" and turned away from "normal" shelters. You know how that happened? I'll tell you the story.

This little kid, Paulie*, was having some emotional problems. His mom thought that it was because his father had recently walked out on them. He was having trouble sleeping and he was having some anger problems and was stealing things from family members. So his mom took him to a therapist. The therapist immediately decided he was being sexually abused, which horrified his mother because she couldn't imagine who could even have the opportunity to do something like that.

So the therapist took Paulie into a room and interviewed him to determine who was sexually molesting him. They asked the question, "Has anyone ever touched you in your private parts?" or something to that effect. His answer was, "Yes." They asked, "Who?" His answer was, "Samuel*". Samuel was his brother who was four years older (about 10 years old).

They asked what Samuel did to Paulie. And Paulie explained that one time, he and Samuel were fighting and Samuel kicked Paulie in his private area. That was it. That was the sexual molestation. And I swear on my grandfather's grave, they put that child through a living hell for YEARS as a "sexual offender" -- counseling, group therapy, constant home visits. Paulie also had to go to counseling for his "trauma", where he quickly learned at six years old what being sexually molested means, and he adamantly insisted that he had never been molested by Samuel or anyone else.

Luckily, Samuel didn't have to register as a sex offender(the registry didn't exist at the time and I don't think they make kids that young register). They told him his record would be expunged at 18 provided he didn't get into any more trouble. They told him (I don't know if this was true or not) that if he got into any other kind of trouble, even shoplifting or anything like that before he turned 18, the sexual offense charge would not be expunged from his record. A sexual offender FOR KICKING HIS BROTHER, the same way that millions of little boys kick their brothers all the time.

Now, if I didn't know that from a first-hand experience, I would think that there was more to that story, but I was there and there wasn't. There are some people who have done some horrible things to people and many of them have never even been caught and probably never will. Those people can go anywhere and do whatever they like, free of consequences. Then, there are some people who get the full force and effect of "sexual offender" and "sexual predator" labels and all the shame and humiliation that comes with them when they have done nothing of the kind.




* = Not real names

[Sgent]

95. Sue the therapist

That is not sexual molesting by any definition of the word (legally). In addition, you just described one of the worst forensic interviews I've ever heard of.

[GiovanniC]

97. It Was One of Those Mental Health Professionals for Low Income

I think run as like a social service organization through a church of some kind. It's not in an actual church, but I believe it's run by either Lutherans or Catholics...

I don't know how it works, but apparently they have some sort of arrangement set up with the child protective services or something. Social services refers families there -- it's the only place you can get mental health without insurance that covers it unless you've got some serious cash.

I don't think they ever sued the agency though. I think they were afraid it would compound their problems.

[shadowknows69]

90. I know of one man in our area

who has sex offender status because when he was 18 he had consensual sex with his 16 year old GF. Should this guy be made to face a hurricaine alone? Is anyone at the shelter going to bother to find this out or is he just on "the list"?

[Bluebear]

91. It's OK, Katherine Harris will certify "the list"

:eyes:

[Evergreen Emerald]

122. I don't buy it. There is something more you are not hearing

Every state varies, but generally there must be at least 48 months difference in age if the victim is under 16. Generally 16 years old is the age of consent (although some states make it a misdemeanor to have sex with a 16 year old if they are significantly older).

You are not hearing the whole story.

[Warren DeMontague]

147. Right, Maybe there was a racial disparity between the girl and the

boyfriend.

In lots of places in this country, that would MORE than explain it.

[Evergreen Emerald]

163. what? You are accusing me of being a racist?

What are you basing that on? That is totally uncalled for and offensive.

[Eloriel]

118. What about "THEY HAVE THEIR OWN SHELTER" do you not

understand?

You're adamant insistence that somehow they will be forced to die is looking just a wee bit hysterical at this point. Get a grip. Read the article. Read a few posts explaining the article.

[shadowknows69]

120. you want to show me

Seminole Sheriff Don Eslinger told the Orlando Sentinel this month that he wanted to use a 50-bed work release center at the county jail in Sanford as an emergency shelter for sex offenders.

where that says the idea was implemented? Are the police going to drive them to the sicko shelter when they don't check out for the real one? I'm not defending these monsters but things like this set dangerous precedents.

[GiovanniC]

121. A Little Late For the Party, Ain't Ya?

As I said here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3926441&mesg_id=3927421

... never mind.

Also, despite a small part in the story indicating that they would like to have a 50-bed shelter for all those deviants to come to, the title of this thread and other parts of the story make it sound totally different.

[madeline_con]

136. THANK YOU

so much for that!

We left during Frances. Good thing, too because she blew our roof off, and the bedroon ceilings collapsed.

Pervs are welcome to get on I-95 and get the F out, too!

[CatostrophicSS]

137. Depends

[DFWdem]

88. They issue evacuation warnings

Knowing this is the policy, they can simply heed the initial evactuaion warnings and not get stranded during a hurricane.

[slor]

22. What is next in Florida...

Mr. fishfla? Firefighters no longer have to extinguish fires at gay owned homes? Police no longer have to investigate crimes on gays? Hope that car that crashed into your car, was not driven by a gay person, because our emergency crews no longer help at gay crash scenes.
Did these questions help? We are not weeping for perverts. But preventing them from using a storm shelter is not going to stop these crimes, or is this where most child molestations take place in Florida?

[GiovanniC]

29. And Remember "Pervert" Is Relative

I don't think anyone will disagree that pedophiles are bad people. However, I would point out that a LOT of people put pedophiles and gay people in the same category. It's just not a big leap for a lot of people to make that connection for whatever reason.

Now, I don't like pedophiles. I wouldn't want to live next door to one. I have four kids. But an emergency is an emergency: people deserve to be allowed to survive natural disasters.

[slor]

42. I was not clear in my post...

Please understand, I was not suggesting that Gay and Pedophiles are synonymous. I am merely pointing out that this would be a logical progression for those that believe that even pedophiles are not entitled to use a shelter during a storm. And also, how the hell will they discern the pedophiles from those that are not? Will they be stamped with some label?

[GiovanniC]

45. I Was Agreeing With You

I know a TON of people who think that "gay = pedophile". This is one of the reasons why they don't think that gay people should be able to teach in schools or to adopt children. So it wouldn't be a stretch at all for those people to keep gay people out during a hurricane. And if you're one of those gay people, what can you do about it? Not a whole lot, except hope you don't die.

[slor]

55. I know you were agreeing with me...

and we are at peace, my friend. I just wanted to make clear that I was not making that comparison (gay=pedophile). This is a silly law, designed to create the illusion of getting tough on this heinous crime, while avoiding the costs of really doing anything about it.

[Bluebear]

87. "a LOT of people put pedophiles and gay people in the same category"

Including Senators.

[Misunderestimator]

94. You betcha. It's just a small step from the current law that prevents

gay people from adopting children in Florida.

[fishnfla]

40. They have their own shelter. Read the article

Most public shelters are in schools. Do you think its a good idea to allow pedophiles inside schools to learn the floorplan?

Why the hyperbole instead of responding to the points and facts I am presenting?

[slor]

51. And if a tornado/hurricane is bearing down on the town...

and the person only has time to get to the closest shelter, which may be a school, he should be turned away? Look, if they commit this type of crime, they should stay in jail. If there is no room in jail, let the people that used marijuana out of jail, to make room. But if those people are out, you cannot deny them shelter in a storm. If you need to guard them, fine, but to keep them out, as if this will somehow curtail the number of attacks on children, that is the hyperbole

[fishnfla]

56. Nobody makes it to a shelter in a tornado and a hurricane is different

People have evacuation plans during a hurricane. Its part of the hurricane preparedness lessons we all go through."have a plan and a place to go if need be" Thats whats going on here, the plan for sexual predators is to go to their own shelter at the detention center. With a hurricane, there is time to do that. Sounds like a smart, safe, plan.

Tornados, I dont think there is a widepsread need for shelters then

[madeline_con]

138. Gay?

Are we equating gay with molester now? :dunce:

[GiovanniC]

181. We Don't Have To

It's already been done.

This is why they want to keep gays from adopting.

This is why they want to keep gays from teaching in schools.

Have you ever really talked to and listened to one of those psycho anti-gay people? They are convinced -- CONVINCED -- that the "homosexual agenda" is for each gay man to have his way with your nine-year-old's nubile ass.

This isn't something that I just invented, it's been explained to me by more than one person when I asked why some of these people felt it was so damned important to rail against GLBT rights.

Just because I disagree with them fiercely doesn't mean that it can't happen. I fiercely believe we shouldn't torture people -- we do. I fiercely believe we shouldn't be in Iraq -- we are. I fiercely believe that we should give full rights to GLBTs -- we don't.

Mark my words, even though you or I might say, "there's no connection between homosexuality and pedophelia", in their minds there is little or no difference. So when it seems like I'm taking up for the "perverts" and "child rapists", keep in mind the story I shared in this thread (post #79) and also the fact that I happen to think this sort of thing might not stop here.

[gollygee]

59. How do they define "sexual predator?"

I know in some states a public nudity arrest can put someone on the sex offender list. I'd hate for someone to be caught skinnydipping in college and then never be able to be in the hurricaine shelters.

[madeline_con]

139. Offender and predator are

not the same, but I don't want to split hairs at the shelter door.

[Misunderestimator]

93. Yeah... let's just give them their own leper colony while we're at it...

or just fucking send em all to Gitmo, the paradise of the tropics. :eyes:

[dogday]

13. If they are allowed to get away with this for one group of people

it won't be long before they impose it upon the next group of people.

[ecstatic]

14. sexual predators never change

I think there should be a distinction made between people accused of the statuatory rape of someone in his/her age group. But when it comes to pedophiles and rapists, they are not capable of rehabilitation. Of course it's not truly that simple because there are many innocent men who have been convicted of such crimes. As far as those who are truly guilty, I agree---let them fend for themselves! They shouldn't get the chance to mingle with children, etc. in storm shelters. Please, let's pick something else to fight over.

[Bluebear]

15. "Please, let's pick something else to fight over."

No, sorry, this is inhumane to me.

How many people are in a shelter in a hurricane btw? You think it's prime grounds for sexual activity with a 'cane blowing over?

[ecstatic]

18. It's much more inhumane to rape a child

I have zero tolerance for rapists and I wouldn't want them around me or any children.

[arwalden]

24. Why Not Just Kill Them And Get It Over With, Eh?

[REP]

31. Good Idea

Rapists cannot be rehabilitated. Lifelong imprisonment would be good, though death would be more humane. I vote for lifelong imprisonment.

[arwalden]

46. Let's Chop Off Their Dicks And Gouge Their Eyes Too.

[REP]

124. Nah - Won't Do Any Good

They'll just use a bottle, stick, knife, whatever to rape their victims. Many rapists, after all, are impotent and are essentially dickless to begin with. Life imprisonment is about the only way to go.

[arwalden]

188. Stone Them. And Lock Up Their Relatives.

[REP]

190. I'm Not a Christian, So I'm Still for Life Imprisonment

None of that sins of the father, stoning and other Christian stuff for me. You may be into it; however, it's a lousy thing to base a judicial system on.

[madeline_con]

140. Life in prison...

costs the taxpayer more $$$.

Stoke up the chamber!

[fishnfla]

26. I'll answer that Bluebear

The shelters are not for everybody. In fact, they encourage people who need them the most to only use them(see the trend? they keep some people out-many are left to fend for themselves)
People that live in low-lying areas or mobile homes or unsafe housing are encouraged to go to shelters. People who have special needs, medical conditions, shut-ins and elderly on their own. People who have to have power for whatever medical reason.
Generally the poorer and disadvantaged need the shelters the most, people who need help and protection.

By all means, let some sexual predator have the space instead....

[Bluebear]

27. We're not gonna agree on everything fish...

I have a hard time believing that this is not a reactionary political move. Has there been any instance of sexual rape/molestation in a hurricane shelter? Is this a problem down there?

[fishnfla]

34. Thats just the point

You want to wait for it to happen, or stop it before it does?

Yes, it is a reaction to all the rapes and murders of children by known sexual deviants that occured here within the past year. They are cracking down on sexual predators.Isnt that a good idea?
The predators will have to look elsewhere to ply their trade, because they compulsively will. Someone obviously thought they might use a time when everyone was distracted, like a hurricane, to do so. Pretty prescient thought,IMO.

[MadHound]

39. So are you willing to make a distinction between somebody

Who is labeled as a pedophile for a stat rape charge(say a 17 year old kid making out with his 16 yo girlfriend), or who gets busted peeing out in nature where a child can see, and a true pedophile who does rape little kids?

The state doesn't, all of these people are lumped together under the label of pedophile, and thus all suffer the same penalties. All get thrown into the databases, and all are excluded from the shelters.

Is that right? Is that moral?

Until you start making these sort of distinctions, this law is ludicrous and wrong.

[fishnfla]

41. Thats not true

There are seperate distinctions. Sexual offenders vs Sexual predators. They are labelled as such here

[hobbit709]

53. The law says all sexual offenders

must register. It makes no distinction between a pedophile, a rapist or as in one case I know of-someone was busted for indecent exposure(which is classified as a sexual offense) when they were drunk and peed behind a dumpster in the dark.

[fishnfla]

62. Yes, but sexual PREDATORS are not allowed in the shelters

thats the difference, especially in the case here. There is a difference

[soup]

64. No distinction made here. The ban covers all.

Hillsborough officials vote sex offender out of hurricane
Thursday, June 16, 2005


TAMPA, Fla. (AP) Hillsborough County commissioners have unanimously voted to create a policy banning the county's 12-hundred registered sex offenders and predators from public hurricane shelters.

Sheriff David Gee proposed the ban and says the sex offenders ``ought to fend for themselves.'' Gee says sex offenders will be arrested if they come near public shelters.

A convicted sex offender is charged with murder for the April abduction and killing of 13-year-old Sarah Lunde of Hillsborough County.

Earlier this month, Seminole County's sheriff proposed making a separate hurricane shelter for sex offenders, to keep them out of public shelters.
http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2005/6/16/93941.html

-- and, among others:

http://www.tampabays10.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=14930
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/11806385.htm

[fishnfla]

70. My bad, OP article indicates otherwise

I believe in Seminole it would be for predators

[soup]

78. No problem. I think they use 'predator' because it is more frightening.

The truth is, though, that there is no distinction as far as the ban goes.

The Seminole County ban does include all sex offenders, not only those listed as predators.

--

from google cache:
Sheriff Wants Separate Hurricane Shelter For Sex Offenders

POSTED: 7:16 am EDT June 3, 2005
UPDATED: 8:11 am EDT June 3, 2005

SANFORD, Fla. -- A sheriff has proposed banning sex offenders and predators from public hurricane shelters in his county.

Seminole County Sheriff Don Eslinger said sex offenders should be evacuated to a separate shelter where they can be monitored.

Eslinger told the Orlando Sentinel that he has proposed using a 50-bed work release center at the Seminole County Jail in Sanford as an emergency shelter for sex offenders.
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:F5pstsVQSHkJ:www.local6.com/news/4564102/detail.html+sex+offenders+emergency+shelter&hl=en

--

Awhile ago, Orange County was going to add all MINORS convicted of a sex offense to the searchable online database. Not sure if they went through with it or not.

But that needs to be addressed, too. Should MINORS convicted of a sex offense also be banned, separated from their family, and sent to the work release center at the Seminole County Jail?

[GiovanniC]

81. Absolutely Not

See this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3926441&mesg_id=3927421

[soup]

84. Thank you for sharing that, GiovanniC.

It is an extremely emotionally charged issue on all sides.

Given different circumstances, my son, who just turned 18, could be on the list in Florida. He and his not yet 17 year old girlfriend are having a baby. Not an easy thing to face, but everyone is pulling together to do whatever needs to be done to help them.

It could just as easily have been a different set of circumstances, and now that my son is 18, he could be facing charges as well as fatherhood.

I have a couple of other personal stories that I could add, but won't, that put me on the side of, "Please, can't we just use some common sense here? All sex offenders are NOT predators. All sex offenders should not be rolled into one huge clump together. Defending one is not defending all."

That said, I'm not sure where I stand (calmly and unemotionally) on this ban. Guess the best I can come up with at the moment is there should probably be distinctions or 'degrees' to separate the really bad guys from those caught up in something that will follow and label them for the rest of their lives due to circumstances. It's not a strictly black/white up/down day/night end of story situation. (if that makes sense - I'm finding it hard to put into words.)

The question remains, does this ban include minors, like Samuel*? I haven't seen that addressed in any of the articles.

[MadHound]

69. Doesn't seem to be much distinction in this law

"Jacksonville officials approved legislation requiring sex offenders who seek emergency shelter during a hurricane to disclose their sex crime conviction to shelter operators upon arrival."

Upon further searching, I found the exact wording from the BOCC minutes, and it is all inclusive: "Commissioner Storms led a discussion on designating separate hurricane shelters
for convicted sexual offenders/predators. The Board approved that staff would
provide notice to listed sexual offenders/predators and to have a policy that they
would not be permitted in shelters and that the County will not provide any
accommodations for them. The County Attorney is responsible for drafting an
appropriately worded policy notice regarding prohibiting the housing of
sexual offenders/predators in shelters by July 1st. Bill Studer is responsible
for then providing that notice to registered sexual offenders and sexual
predators by August 1st."<http://docs.hillsboroughcounty.org/repository/00002/295/Recap%2006-15%20BOCC%20Regular%20Meeting.pdf>

Which means that people like this man<http://www3.fdle.state.fl.us/sexual_predators/OffenderFlyer.asp?keys=5120> whose only crime may have been simply taking a piss where he was viewed by a kid, are going to be denied shelter during a hurricane. Is that right? Is that just?

Sorry friend, but this is wrongheaded. While I understand the sentiment, this is lumping together ALL persons convicted of a sex crime, whether it be taking a drunken piss where a child could see it, a horny teenager consensually having fun with his underage girlfriend, or a truly sick pedophile.

This is bad law, very much a broad brush approach to an issue that needs more distinction.

[dogday]

44. Look No One Likes Predators of Children

That is exactly why this would be the perfect excuse to start exempting groups of people. First the pervs, then the smokers, then the Democrats... don't think it so far fetched. Once you open the door, you open it to all possibilities....

[fishnfla]

52. For the last time: THEY HAVE THEIR OWN SHELTER

Did you read the article? They have there own place to go, just like people with pets go to their own place and handicapped people go to their own place.

[GiovanniC]

57. If a Handicapped Person Shows Up at a "Regular" Shelter

Will they be kept out and told to fend for themselves?

[fishnfla]

65. Excuse me, Captain obtuse. Have you been paying attention?

<sounding like a broken record>

As part of everyone's huuricane evacuation plan, people are instructed to know where and when to go. We all had lots of practice last year

You do understand the concept: there is time to prepare in a hurricane. If they show up at the wrong place, they are given directions to the proper place

[GiovanniC]

74. So If My Handicapped Grandfather Is Staying at My House

and I take him to my regular shelter with me, they'll say, "Go fuck yourself, he can't come in here, this place is only for 'normals'?" Assuming that the shelter is handicapped-accessible, are you saying that they would still say, "Get out of here and go to the handicapped shelter"?


PS: Captain Obtuse? Seriously, if you're going to resort to petty insults and name-calling, can't you come up with something a little more catchy or creative?

[slor]

61. Damn...Florida must be rolling in the dollars...

to have all these different shelters for different types of people. Is there any green space left in these towns?

[fishnfla]

72. The schools are shelters, different school are used for different needs

Do you think its a good idea to let pedophiles learn the layout of their local school?

[MadHound]

77. Gee, one whole shelter, probably across town for some

So gee, they have to travel across town to get to this shelter, storm comes up and kills them on the way there. Effective death sentence friend. Made doubly bad by the fact that this law is not going to discern between relatively innocent people(such as indecency raps, etc) and the truly guilty.

Bad law my friend, bad law. And now, somebody whose only crime was peeing where a kid could see them is not only going to get busted, do jailtime, put on a watch list, hounded from neighborhood to neighborhood, but they could possibly die to boot, all because they peed where a kid could see them.

Bad law.

[fishnfla]

80. You are grasping at straws my friend

The cops have a rule of thumb: if you dont evacuate on time (in a timely fashion, which they give you plenty of notice), you deserve to die, they wont help you. Child rapist or not, you are left to fend for yourself. If the winds get above a certain speed, police and fire rescue dont leave the station, even to save their own families. Its a rule. My old neighbor anguished during hurricane Charley, knowing our town was getting trashed, watching on a special radar

If you get caught out in the storm, as in your scenerio, you are truly on your own because of your own stupidity. Some people got wasted like that during the hurricanes .

be preared is the rule of thumb, when they tell you to evacuate , go. If people did not they were told 'if you call for us during the storm, we will not come'

[MadHound]

83. Look, I understand what goes on during a hurricane there

I have family in Pensacola. I understand about the time factor. But still and all, somebody who is showing up in plenty of time at the local shelter, yet gets turned away due their former peeing where a kid could see rap will have to truck across town, in traffic, and could very well get nailed by a tornado that is spawned by the hurricane. Boom, they're dead, due to peeing where they shouldn't.

This is a bad law friend, due to its lack of discernment. That you think it is OK for people whose crime was so minor, ie boyfriend/underage girlfriend, peeding where you shouldn't etc, to be discriminated against in such away tells me a lot. None of it good.

Bad kneejerk law friend. Whose next to get kicked out of the shelters? Gays, liberals, it is a slippery slope friend, one that we shouldn't step on lightly.

[bloom]

89. I don't buy this slippery slope nonsense

While it makes sense that registered sex offenders should be sex offenders - I don't have a problem with keeping them out of a shelter where people are going to be sleeping and have enough stress without people who around who don't respect boundaries and have shown that they violate those boundaries.

That doesn't have anything to do with other possible categories of people.

[MadHound]

99. Do you approve of categorizing some poor soul

Who had the misfortune, in a drunken moment, of pissing in front of a child, and who though he did his time, is now labeled and harassed as a sex offender for the rest of his life? What about a 17 year old, who had consensual sex with his underage girlfriend, but the parents got their panties in a wad and had him busted for stat rape? Is it right that he not only goes to prison, but is on a sex offenders list the rest of his life?

And yes, there is a slippery slope arguement here. Today, it is sex offenders, tommorrow, murderers, then pick pockets and thieves, then what? After all, it is "for the children"

What the real kicker is that the government and law enforcement is using the category of sex offenders(a group nobody likes) to force through all sorts of odious laws and constraints. Once this is widespread, it can be used on other categories of criminals or citizens. After all, there is precedent. It is much like piss testing twenty five years ago. Nobody objected at first, for nobody wanted to be seen as pro-drug. Yet more and more, pee tests were applied to other areas, and now boom, your pissing just to get a job at McDonalds. It is fucking ludicrous.

[madeline_con]

150. "Gee, one whole shelter, probably across town for some"

They'd have two if there were more perverts.

They can hoof it on over. The strom can be clearly seen on radar for days before it hits.

:nopity:

[madeline_con]

143. Oh for crying out loud

Now we have to wait until it happens?

The shelters are crowded, with people sleeping all over the floor right next to each other. Do you want a sex offender curled up behing your kid?

Better get to work making sure everyone in your state is welcome if there;s a disaster. Don't want any wet perverts, do we?

[podnoi]

146. Madeline... Your imagination is working overtime

Relax a bit. There is no hurricane at the momement. You have the entire scenario built in your mind and the adrenaline is already flowing ;)

Please read up. You will feel better after you have educated yourself and gotten past the right wing talking points. There are more effective ways to make Children safer than what is being done out of ignorance.

[madeline_con]

152. I am relaxed

And I'm not imagining the crowded conditions in the shelters.

I realize there's no storm right now. That's why it's a great time to plan for them. Duh.

[madeline_con]

144. ooopps

got overzealous with little post button. :eyes:

[madeline_con]

145. duplicate

sorry

[shadowknows69]

37. Screw that

In times of disaster you save lives and ask questions later. Are they realistically going to stop and screen IDs while shuffling people in from a killer storm?/ Next come the upc symbols in our hands with a record of all our past deeds so we can be easily scanned at such shelters and allowed in or tossed out.

[demwing]

43. What about the family of a sex offender?

The children of an offender?

Do they get in?

What about convicted murderers?

What about prisons? Fuck the prisoners if they get sick. Why spend a penny on medicine for a criminal?

Man, this is a slippery slope...

We are a savage nation. Now I understand why Savage/Weiner gets any airtime.

[ecstatic]

66. not a slippery slope

This is outrageous. What ever happened to consequences for horrible actions? Why all the sympathy for child molesters? The law they are proposing is very impractical, but you won't catch me losing any sleep over it.

And frankly I'm getting sick of the comparisons of sexual predators to blacks/gays. Don't use us minority groups to strengthen this argument.

[GiovanniC]

76. Guess What?

You might not like gays being compared to pedophiles, but it is a connection that a TON of people make.

In the minds of many people, all gays are NAMBLA man-boy love freaks that are just waiting for you to turn your back so they can snatch up your nine year old son and defile his virgin ass.

Already, a lot of people don't think that gays should be allowed to teach in schools, or to adopt children. How long before they don't think they should be allowed in hurricane shelters with kids?

[BiggJawn]

98. "What ever happened to consequences for horrible actions?"

Uh....Wasn't the PRISON TERM supposed to address that?

We're a Bloody-Minded culture, I have no doubt of that anymore.

The statutory term of punishment is no longer ENOUGH for some of us. If the sentence is 25 years, then by GAWD, make it FIFTY, so when the "good time" kicks in, he'll have done the FULL 25. Then put him on Probation for the rest of his life, with conditions that would be easier met by wandering off into the desert forever.

Oh, and be SURE to publish his name on a web-site, like Chicago is doing to the losers who buy pussy and get caught, BEFORE they're even CONVICTED of patronizing a prostitute (which, by the way, also gets you the coveted title of "Sex Offender" in most states)

Why not just leave drug offenders in Prison, too? Shit, don't most of them just go back to the old neighbourhood and pick up where they left off, too?

[madeline_con]

148. "What about prisons?"

"Fuck the prisoners if they get sick. Why spend a penny on medicine for a criminal?"

The jails ans prison are shelters, so they don't all have to be moved?

Sick prisoners? From what, the food?

Prisoners get medical care. You know that.

[demwing]

186. I'm following the "logic" to see where it leads

The county sherif was quoted in the OP as saying that he didn't think we should spend ANY money to protect sex offenders.

Well, these are people out of jail, who have supposedly paid their debt to society. What about peopple still in jail? Follow this sherif's reasoning and you'll come to the conclusion that those who are a burden to society have been too much of a burden as it is.

If you wont save the life of a man who has paid his debt, why treat the health of a man who has not?

If you think the logic is flawed, you're right. The whole IDEA is flawed, beginning with the cruel premiss.

[TWiley]

47. Republicans demand a hierarchy of humanity.

This is why racism is so important to their party. Attacking Homosexuals or sex offenders is just another way of legitimizing discrimination. Each peasant needs to feel like he has a leg up on someone else for the system to work.

Without that, there would be a huge unified middle class bearing down on the royals.

[RedCappedBandit]

49. Everyone here should watch 'Woodsman'

[Hobarticus]

50. Great...vigilante rescue services, too...

Instant judgement on whether someone lives or dies.

[ucmike]

67. is there a seperate shelter for corrupt politicians?

i'm laughing at the way some people here have insinuated that, during a hurricane, waves of child molestors are going to sweep down upon the undefended children left alone in a shelter while all the parents and adults and emergency personel are out in the hurricane chasing rainbows or something. i've never been in a hurricane shelter, but every time i see a news report it seems to me that its families huddled around some cots or sitting on the floor. its not like they segregate people: "sweet young defenseless boys in this room, irresistable little girls in that one. all the adults on the other side of the building except the guys who are salivating, they can be with the kids."

i don't have kids, but i raised younger brothers and sisters and i know that i never left them unattended in public places full of strangers, i wouldn't do it, and neither would most parents, especially during something as traumatic as riding out a hurricane in a school gym.

one other issue, has this ever happened? is there a single documented case of a convicted sex offender attacking a child in a storm shelter? and i notice the term "sexual predator" is the criteria. is this a legal status? who decides who gets that label? we all know that the public servants of fla. often make decisions based on a less-than-impartial basis.

anyway, seems exteme and unneccesary to me.

[TWiley]

85. Yes, they hide their special admittance badges behind their COD Piece.

[Misunderestimator]

100. Bravo!

Love your first sentence:

"i'm laughing at the way some people here have insinuated that, during a hurricane, waves of child molestors are going to sweep down upon the undefended children left alone in a shelter while all the parents and adults and emergency personel are out in the hurricane chasing rainbows or something."



Chasing rainbows.... LOL. :thumbsup:

[ArkDem]

73. Oh, the HUMANITY!!!

[kodi]

96. patently unconstitutional under the equal protection clause of the 14th Am

EQUAL PROTECTION CLAUSE - Portion of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that prohibits discrimination by state government institu~tions.

The clause grants all people "equal protection of the laws," which means that the states must apply the law equally and cannot give preference to one person or class of persons over another.

[eissa]

102. Seriously,

why are we wasting time debating whether or not some sick perverted freak MIGHT be left out of a shelter during a possible hurricane? Many Florida residents have their own shelters and I'm sure there are some really caring people, like those who defend pedophiles here on DU, who would be more than happy to take these bastards in during a natural disaster.

[Bluebear]

103. What comprises "defending pedophiles here on DU" to you?

[eissa]

104. I've simply seen far too many threads

displaying outrage over the unfair treatment of sex offenders. As far as I'm concerned, no treatment of a sex offender can be described as "unfair." Flame away!

[Bluebear]

105. Did you read any of the thread & the discussion?

Just wondering.

[eissa]

106. I read the article,

but not much of the discussion to be honest -- have seen way too many of these and it just ends up aggravating my ulcers. Admittance to the shelter would be given on a case-by-case basis. So if you're a 19-year old kid who had sex with his 16-year old girlfriend, I'm sure they won't have any problems. However, if you raped a 4-year old, then I say look out for those flying houses.

[Bluebear]

110. It said DOC handles evacuations on a case-by-case basis

The sheriff said they would be arrested if they came near the shelters, but your mind is made up.

[eissa]

113. Is this what you mean

"Jacksonville officials approved legislation requiring sex offenders who seek emergency shelter during a hurricane to disclose their sex crime conviction to shelter operators upon arrival."

Not the evacuations, but the shelter. But like you said, I do have my mind made up. Quite frankly, if one got into my shelter (which would never happen) that sad excuse for a human being would actually be much safter outside.

[Bluebear]

115. I guess I thought someone's debt is paid when they are released

And if they are too dangerous, they should not be released to begin with.

[BiggJawn]

123. I thought the same thing, Bluebear. Guess we're just NAIVE...

The shit I've ready on this thread from some of these SO-CALLED "Progressives" made me sick to my stomach. I'm fucking serious.

I came home from work and I've spent most the evening in fucking TEARS to think that I'm politically aligned with so many bloody-minded ASSHOLES, some of them who probably consider themselves "Good Christians", who call themselves Progressives, Who hate the what the GOP has done to this country with every fiber of their bodies as I do, yet can't wrap their little atrophied ex-freeper brains around the fact that when an offender has PAID HIS FUCKING DEBT TO SOCIETY, We RELEASE him from prison.

NO! they don't fucking GET it!

"He'd probably be safer OUTSIDE the shelter"

That makes me sick. why don't you fuckwads go watch Joe Scarborough and jerk-off to Nancy Grace or something. Or bat your woody back and forth while you fantasize about "Whut Ah'd dew t'wunnathem MO-lesters iffn he moved int' MAH trailer court!"

[podnoi]

126. FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR,,,,,,,

A little search on the internet will reveal that most of these offenders don't recommit. But the "Talking Points" are out there. New Labels have been made to trigger the response. Facts won't get in the way of the hysteria.

No one is defending these people. But what is frightening is to see DU'rs caught up in this hysteria trap.

Why are all these laws being made? Because the problem is worse? No, because it is hyped in the media, it serves some peoples need for power, it sells advertising space, and our paranoid society buys right into it.

[BiggJawn]

183. And FEAR sells.

Is Nancy Grace popular because she's so brilliant and explains intricate legal matters in an entertaining way?

Shit, no, they watch her because they get off on her "String 'em up, the cops NEVER arrest innocent people." style. It feeds their personal Frankenstein.

And the Bush Gang KNOWS fear is what we want. They've been selling us fear almost since ?Day One.

Oh, by way of the expected self-indentifier, I don't "defend" or "like" Child Predators either. It also disgusts me that's how some people around here think, these "You aren't with ME, so you must love Micheal Jackson" knuckledraggers.

[Pithlet]

111. They aren't defending sex offenders!

Good God. They're fighting barbaric practices, something that benefits us all. And they extend that fight to everyone, regardless of popular opinion. As far as your concerned, no treatment of sex offenders is unfair. Fine. But don't expect that society has to conform to that. We do, or should, have a defined justice system in this country. And, like it or not, it isn't a system based on vengeance. Leaving anyone to die in a hurricane who's already served their sentence and has been deemed fit to release isn't justice. I don't think we should be putting any human being on a "do not save" list. And to suggest that is defending pedophiles is ludicrous.

[Bluebear]

112. "Do not save list"

Thank you for that wording, that is exactly what I think struck a chord in my gut. And I am not 'defending child predators'.

[Pithlet]

107. This is going way too far.

What's next? Banning them from hospitals? Cutting off their water supply? Putting their home on a "no save" list for the fire department so they'll let their house burn? Blocking their calls from 911? Branding their foreheads without anesthetic? I mean, I'm no fan of pedophiles, but there has to be limits.

[rodeodance]

109. I agree. they have served their time. Let them be. Yet some montoring

of some sort may be required for some. To ostracize them completely is wrong.

[Pithlet]

114. And it's ridiculous. Is this going to save on kid from being molested?

This is just useless, reactionary BS mean to appease the punishment crowd. It won't do a damn thing to protect kids, and it will bring down society and turn us into a people that would purposefully leave out people to the elements. Just dumb.

[Vladimir]

119. This is both idiotic and inhumane

and that applies whether you believe that sexual predators can be rehabilitated or not. If they can't, then they should spend their life in a medical facility for the mentally ill, or a jail (depending on the nature of the offence), and be protected in its storm shelters (I assume psychiatric hospitals and jails have them). If they can be rehabilitated, then upon release they should be regarded as citizens who have served their debt to society, and are entitled to fully participate in it and benefit from its protections.

[madeline_con]

127. Do you want them sleeping next ...

your kids in a school gym?

Who says they'll die outside?

[Bluebear]

133. Do I want them sleeping next to my kids?

To begin with I would think that my children would be very close to me in said gym.

>Who says they'll die outside?<

Who says they won't?

[podnoi]

142. Hysteria?

You know,
This particular law does not disturb me in itself, although it is pretty callous.
What disturbs me is the hysteria involved in this. If one does just a little reading they find out that there is a lot of misinformation out there. But someone(s) are whipping up people into a frenzy over this. Laws are going up right and left. Everyone, including DU'ers, whom I thought were somewhat immune, are wearing paranoid hats.

I think this is another distraction, like the flag burning issue. It appeals to conservatives and drives people from percieved "weak" liberals.

It is better for folks to get informed so society can do something about this that would *really* make a difference. The rate of recidivsm is 10-20% (http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/newhope.html). Too much, but not the pumped stats we here bantered about. It can be at least cut in half. Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on doing that, instead of fueling irrational paranoia?

[madeline_con]

154. I would think that my children would be very close to me in said gym.

And a sex offender could be very close to both of you.

[ikri]

176. You're right..

"a sex offender could be very close to both of you"

Its probably your neighbor's brother bob who has been molesting his niece/nephew for years without being caught.

In 90% of the cases its a close relative, but they usually don't get reported or prosecuted.

But since your neighbor's brother bob isn't on the sex offender's list you don't have anything to worry about.

[davepc]

149. Do you think they should get their voting rights and firearms ownership

rights back too?

I mean, they paid their debt to society.

[Bluebear]

151. Voting rights probably, firearms ownership I don't know enough about

But the issues are different. The two you mention are societal priveleges; storm shelter seems to me to be a more basic right.

[davepc]

160. societal privileges?!?!

wow.

[Bluebear]

161. Wow what?

If you would like to educate me to your point of view please elaborate.

[davepc]

162. Well...what other basic human rights are 'societal privileges'?

Free Speech? Right to associate with whomever you want? The right to practice your religion? The right to be safe from indiscriminate search and seizure of your property? Right to a jury trial?

Just because the government can take something away by force doesn't mean the right doesn't inherently exists, and doesn't make it a privilege.

[Bluebear]

164. I told you I am not up on firearms issues

So I defer to your wisdom on the subject.

I guess I was trying to say food, water and shelter are basic human needs for survival. Whether you have a firearm or can vote is more an issue of society to me, not basic human survival. If that makes sense.

[Vladimir]

153. Fucking right they should

if you believe in rehabilitation, you have to give it a chance to work - that means full reintegration with full rights. And that goes for every criminal who gets anything less than life, regardless of the offence.

[Warren DeMontague]

155. I'll solve this entire damn Debate, right now.

Okay. Anyone who commits rape or sexually abuses a child- (and being a member of the Roman Catholic Church heirarchy is no excuse, either) should be locked up for life. Period. Barring release due to exculpatory evidence (they didn't really do it) they should not be allowed any chance to get out.

And I am most expressly NOT talking about the 19 year old with the 17 year old girlfriend. There's gotta be some way to make that distinction.

I'm not talking about the kid who kneed his kid brother in the nuts. That's mean, but it's not a sex crime.

I'm also not talking about cases where people thirty years after the fact remember- with the help of hyponosis and a therapist- molestations involving alien abductions, satanic rituals, and Jack Lord. I'm not going to debate the veracity of such recovered memories, but I don't know if they're substantial enough basis, with no corroborating evidence, to lock people up, much less for life. Disagree, get pissed at me, whatever.. I don't.

But violent predation- violence, period- should not be tolerated in our society. Those people should be removed from the community, and removed for good.

They won't need a public storm shelter if they're still in the can.

Shit, you ask, how are we ever going to make room in the prisons for all those people, locked up for life? Here's an idea- stop blowing billions locking up non-violent drug offenders, who constitute some half or more of the prison population as it is. You think the top priority of your tax dollars is protecting our children from perverts? Bullshit. Your tax dollars spent the past week raiding medical marijuana clubs in San Francisco, with the feds apparently celebrating the recent SCOTUS ruling giving them carte blanche to haul cancer-ridden grannies off to jail again.

[madeline_con]

166. A rose by any other name.

Statutory rape is still rape.

[Warren DeMontague]

168. Okay, so, an 18 year old who has sex with a 17 year old is-- what...

a violent criminal?

What punishment do you suggest? Life imprisonment? Death?

I would think that people who have been victims of REAL rape would be plenty offended by your making the argument that there is anything even remotely akin to a moral equivalence there.

[madeline_con]

170. Please read my latest reply to you.

[madeline_con]

169. I owe you an apology...

I realize you have personal reasons for the way you feel.

I do too.

I don't know if distinctions may be made. I don't even know how the authorities are going to check everyone. Fake I.Ds aren't hard to get, everyone who offends isn't necessarily caught, etc.

Someone's trying to protect kids, and the law's not perfect.

If there can be a push to let felons register to vote, maybe lesser offenses can be takne into consideration. I'm not an attorney, just a Mom who wants her kids safe in as many situations as possible.

:shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

171. I hear you, too. No apology necessary. I understand about protecting kids,

If anyone ever tried to hurt mine, I would go nuts.

No effort, really, should be spared to keep kids -ALL kids- safe. I think we're completely on the same page, there. Peace.

[madeline_con]

172. B@peace, too.

:)

[Vladimir]

175. That approach would at least be logical

and consistent - of course it presupposes that there is no possibility of rehabilitation, but I am tempeted to think you are right about that anyhow.

[podnoi]

178. That sounds like a reasoned response.....

Not much room for reason in the age of disorder ;)

[Warren DeMontague]

173. Dont convicted child molesters often have conditions of their parole about

not being near kids?

I would think that would render the whole thing moot.

As it is, my opinion is that anyone convicted of hurting a child shouldn't be allowed out of jail in the first place.

I'd be curious to see, exactly, the list of offenses which constitute someone being labled a sexual predator.

[Bluebear]

174. I'm wondering if there has even been a problem in a shelter?

And PS I agree with your entire stance re: being let out of jail, etc. I wonder what kind of ID process people go through down in Florida to enter a shelter? Up here, if a storm is a-comin' you just show up and grab a coffee and sandwich and listen to weather radio, there is no call for ID's and the like.

[noonwitch]

187. They should have separate shelters for families with kids

It would resolve that issue. Not all predators have been previously convicted, after all. If the good sheriff was thinking about avoiding problems instead of boosting his image as tough on crime, he might actually succeed in coming up with a workable policy that leaves no one vulnerable to either hurricanes or predators.

[Ragnar]

191. I have a better idea.

Let Christians fend for themselves. After all, if it's God's will, they will live through it, and if not, then it was just God's will.