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Yahoo headline: "Democrats FEAR GOP Push on Flag-Burning"

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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 10:12 AM
Original message
Yahoo headline: "Democrats FEAR GOP Push on Flag-Burning"
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/civil_liberties

Aren't you just sick to death of that? Wouldn't it be nice for once to see "Democrats STAND FIRM on flag-burning (or whatever else)"

You can hardly blame Yahoo, since the congressional dems' hallmark has been their cowering fear before Dear Leader and Rove...


(sigh)
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'll join you in that *siiiiigh*
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JRob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. Now there's a productive use of government time...

:sarcasm:

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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. they're going to force it, & then label us the flag burning party
Edited on Thu Jun-23-05 10:16 AM by mopaul
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. I'm curious
What about bathing suits with the flag design on them? I've seen some really gross looking flag thongs. And what about those ragged flags on cars? I think it's not good flag etiquette to display a ragged flag, but should it be illegal? And what about flags on faded T-shirts? Should they be illegal? And how will you distinguish intent? What happens if the person wearing the flag thong loves Bush?
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maxrandb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. What About "Chimpy" Appearing in Front of 10-15 Flags???
If that's not desecration, I don't know what is!!!
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Stirk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. God, if ever there was an issue not worth debating, it's this one.
The Dems should anxiously accept all invitations to appear on television and address the flag-burning debate, and once there, talk about the DSM, Bush's lies, and impeachment.

They should explain that the Republicans think Americans are so stupid that they'll forget about Bush lying us into a war if only they wave the flag hard enough. They should point out that people are unemployed, and sacrificing their children in a war Bush sold with lies, but the Republicans just want to talk about outdated wedge issues.

Don't let them set the lines of debate. This issue is pure bullshit.
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mermaid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. No, It IS Worth Debating. See My Post #7. We Just Need To Frame The Debate
n/t
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. You're right. They should start with, "Flag-burning is in the US Flag
Code as a proper way to destroy and old, tattered or worn flag, so the repukes must be grandstanding but here's what I don't get...The DSM came out in early May and..."

or

bush* lied about...

or

don't you think fill-in-blank is a high crime?
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siliconefreak Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. virtual flag burning
I can picture the Repugs eventually pushing to include "virtual flag burning" as a part of the amendment.

If you dare to create an image of a burning flag on your computer, you will go to jail for 20 years.
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mermaid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. Questions And Thoughts re: Flag Burning
First, the question comes to mind...how does this affect the manner in which flags to be taken out of service are to be disposed of in a dignified manner? The american Legion states that the correct way to dispose of a worn-out, torn-up flag, in a dignified manner, is by burning it...yes, BURNING IT...and on flag Day, every year, for years back, american Legion halls have routinely set hundreds of flags ablaze in a respectful disposal ceremony of old flags.

This is, as I have said, the proper, respectful, and dignified way to dispose of old, worn-out, tattered and torn flags. How would a Flag-Burning Amendment affect this practice? How would we then dispose of a flag in a dignified manner when it has reached the end of it's serviceable use? It is certainly disrespectful of the flag to fly it when it is in poor condition (tattered, torn, worn-out) and I do not think simply putting the flag out with the garbage is a respectful manner in which to dispose of a flag.

The second, and perhaps more important question is this: Why are they so concerned about a SYMBOL (let's face it a flag is nothing by a symbol) and yet, the majority of supporters of this Amendment (Republicans) routinely hold the SYMBOL sacred, while routinely trashing everything the symbol represents, you know, things like peace, freedom, democracy, equality, justice, etc....

Is it not one of the fourteen signs of fascism to have an over-emphasis on Symbols, and symbolism? This, to me, is a pure sign of Nationalism. An article on this morning's front page clearly defines the differences between Patriotism and Nationalism, but if you want another (my) definition of the terms, I'd put it this way: you will find the Patriots on DU, and the Nationalists on Free Republic.

Lastly, what do the Nationalists hope to achieve by passing this Amendment, which is clearly in violation with the First amendment right to free speech? The First Amendment is designed to protect, specifically political speech...and even more specifically, UNPOPULAR political speech, as popular political speech, by definition, needs no protection.

Those who have hatred in their hearts for this country, or for our symbols...or what those symbols have now come to mean (torture, illegal, pre-emtive wars, Gitmo, etc...) are not going to respect the law of this land, anyway, and will continue to burn flags to make their political statements...and this amnendment would not be binding on the most common offenders, anyway, as those people are foreigners, and are doing their activities on foreign soil.

I'm thinking those who support this Amendment would do much better to address the things that cause some to disrespect and desecrate the symbols of this nation. Why do they do it? could it be because the symbol, for them, symbolizes something different that it once did? could it be that the policies and actions of this corrupt Administration have changed, for some people, what Old Glory symbolizes for them?

Of course, they won't do that, because, as the aforementioned article mentions...it is far easier for the Nationalists to point fingers at a scapegoat or a boogeyman, and blame it for all our ills...rather than take a good, long, hard, honest look at themselves and their actions...and to ponder if perhaps some of those actions are causing others to take the action they are now lining up trying to prevent.

So, to sum things up, my questions regarding the amendment would be...

1. What replaces burning as the dignified, respectful, and proper way to dispose of a no-longer-serviceable United States Flag?

2. What are we going to do as a country, to change what our symbol menas to others around the world? Or are we just going to subscribe to the "might is right" theory and simply FORCE and batter our view into common practice, as the Busheviks have been doing these pst five years (which is, incidentally, why we are so universally hated around the globe these days)

3. How does one enforce this Amendment, particularly when most of the offenders will be, and have been, people not subject to the laws of this land?

4. How does one reconcile this Amendment with the free speech provisons afforded under the First Amendment?

5. What, exactly, are the Nationalists who support this bill REALLY trying to achieve here? They seem more concerned with the SYMBOL than with the nation the symbol represents. Then again, that is a common trait of Nationalists.

As a patriot, it hurts my heart to see an American flag burned by an angry group of political protestors. It hurts me not that they are burning the flag...but rather, it hurts me that the flag has come to symbolize such horrible things to them that they feel it necessary to burn it in order to make thier views known. The country I grew up in...the country I learned about, and the country I love, I fear it already no longer exists. I find myself asking the question time and again...how has my country come to this...that the symbols of our country could come to mean such evil things to some people?

Weren't we supposed to be about liberty and justice for ALL? Weren't we supposed to be about peace, democracy, freedom, human dignity, inalienable human rights? Wasn't THAT what Old Glory was supposed to represent? So why doesn't it represent that to some people anymore? THAT is the question that should be asked. But, again, that is a question for patriots...not nationalists.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. But my REAL problem with the story is the FEAR angle.
Edited on Thu Jun-23-05 11:08 AM by UdoKier
It just seems to be such a repetitive occurrence. Democrats FEAR this, FEAR that. When are they going to stand up and fight?

I'm not saying that the flag issue is dear to my heart. I see it as the distraction it is. But no decent person of either party could in good conscience vote for it when it clearly abridges the first amendment for no reason other than empty fake nationalism.

So why is the dems' apparent response to everything a bunch of hand-winging and apologizing? God DAMN I'm sick of it/them.
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mermaid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I Agree
but don't expect the Corporate Media to spin the story in a way that makes Democrats look good...or even in a way that DOESN'T make Democrats look bad.

These guys have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, and the current power structure....and they know they will lose their ass if Democrats ever regain power...and so they do everything they can to paint Democrats negatively.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. ...and the dems give it to them on a silver platter...
....by consistently being the cowards the media paints them as being.
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maxrandb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Another Question to Add to your Great Post
1. What is the penalty going to be for violators of this Amendment? Is it death, 10 years in prison, $1000 fine, deportation, 1000 hours of community service, being forced to watch nothing bu Fox News for a year? Is it a felony that will remove voting rights?

Come on, if they're serious about this, then let's make the penalty death, or deportation.

I had another post on here where I satirically had Dems introducing legislation to ban desecration of the Purple Heart Medal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3926636

Makes you wonder where this will end, and in the long run, the only purpose of this lame exercise is so that Republicans can label the Democratic Party as the "Flag Burning Party". Hell, why don't they just make us all wear "Gold Donkeys" on our coats???
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
12. This amendment passed by the lowest number of votes in the past 20 years
i don't think it will pass the senate.
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
15. This is one of those "wedge" issues, like gay-marriage
It was brought up intentionally in order to put dems in a bad light, and divert attention from the war, SS, lame-duckedness...it is a particularly emotional issue, because many Americans are old enough to remember the flag-burnings during the Vietnam War-protest days. Pictures of flag burners in newspapers and on TV caused absolute fury among Americans, even moderates. They are desperately appealing to their conservative base, because conservatives are noticing that this administration is lying and manipulating them. Conservatives are dividing. "So, quick boys, let's come up with some emotional issue; no, not gay marriage, that's been done to death...I know, burning flags! That'll get the bubbas worked up."

How many flag-burnings have you noticed lately?

How many flag-burnings have you noticed lately?

How many flag-burnings have you noticed lately?

Seems like the bubbas would get tired of being manipulated on such a shallow, superficial level. Oh well.
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