Truth about Gitmo Espionage

[rooddood743]

In the last two days, we've heard about two arrests at the Guantanamo Concentration camp for espionage. Thanks to the first Bush, (or maybe it was Reagan) such crime will get you executed. Now, none of the news accounts have said as much, but being a Democrat, I'm pretty bright: What possible classified information could these guys possibly be trying to smuggle out?

I'll tell you: NONE!! These are a couple of guys, who, due to their conscience, are trying to let outsiders and/or family members know about who is there or what hell they are being put through.
Naturally, this is information that the Bush Cartel would prefer to keep secret. And we all know how those fellows love to set examples. These guys are gonna die, as a warning to other people who may be tempted to indulge in conscience.

Our country has been conquered; sold for Oil and betrayed by religious fanatics. Our own, homegrown Taliban.

[mddemo]

1. gitmo

not having been to gitmo for many years, i have no idea what information was being smuggles out, but it dosent matter. At my job theres info i could give out that would be meaningless to the vast majority of people, but it could be used to our companies detriment. Personally as these guys are not civilians but members of the military the US military codes of justice should determine their punishment. Who knows what damage they have caused.

[radwriter0555]

3. How can a bunch of waylaid sheepherders cause 'damage'? What? They're

gonna leak secrets to where the best feeding grounds are in Afghanistan?

Give me a break.

[HFishbine]

6. Your "companies?" (sic)

Huh?

Are you suggesting that the information may not be of national security but of corporate interest?

[radwriter0555]

2. ooooo you are SO right... well thought out.

Nicely done.

I've said from the beginning these guys are nothing but sheepherders and hostages... they have no information or else we'd USE it or gain from it.

[PATRICK]

4. Syrian connection

That country and its citizens certainly know here is a tartget painted on their backs. Possibly, since the Syrian connection(if true) seemed to be the main espionage destination that they are concerned if some of their people at Gitmo are being used to build a case. However the sense of this seems self-defeating, the terrorist linkage garbled and illogical as per the Iraqi/AlQaeda fiction lingering in the dustbin.

And the way this is being spoonfed along with the details of 9/11 by our captured "mastermind" in such a paltry, blurb way from usually unnamed sources that I can't help feeling the interesting questions are not even being raised. Like what possible use is this knowledge to terrorists? It sounds more probable that some sympathetic people have been trying to get word out- and will be scapegoated as "Syrian terrorists" whether they are or not as groundwork for the next war and a warning to stay away from Guantanamo period. We're living in a news vacuum, a truth and fact vacuum, a justice vaccuum.

As such I am not impressed by the charges.

[Minstrel Boy]

7. that "passing information to an official of

the Syrian government" sounds soooo ominous. It needn't be. If a Syrian citizen is held in Gitmo, he undoubtedly wants contact with a representative of his government, just as Americans want and expect US representation when they're held overseas.

[CheshireCat]

9. Or maybe that Syrian official

was being notified that a relative was at Gitmo and of his condition.

"Mr. Syrian official, your brother is being held at Gitmo."

[sistersofmercy]

5. Totally agree!

What "secrets" could be leaked from Gitmo other than human rights violations or info to loved ones. Bush Co=criminals violating our constitution.

[DarkPhenyx]

56. Locations of key prisoners...

...the exact layout of the prisons. There is a great deal of information that would be of use to those on the outside. How about telling the key leaders on the outside which future operations have already been compromised? Something like that would be invaluable to al-Queda and other organizations.

[DarkPhenyx]

8. Detailed diagrams of the compound...

...guard numbers, security proceedures, weaknesses in the parimiter. There are a lot of things, information wise, that they could be smuggling out, including mesages going back to the terrorists cells. Execution orders, planning deatails.

[Hanuman]

54. Not to mention the names of the captives...

which would tell Al Qaeda leadership who is in detention and what plans and internal information might have been compromised to us.

If you guys think this kind of espionage is "no big deal, " or "it's just an act of humanitarian conscience," you're flat out wrong.

The US military has extremely strict rules regarding the trafficking of info between detainees and everyone else on the planet.

I will not shed a tear if these guys are found guilty and executed- they knew the rules and they willingly -apparently- broke them.

[rooddood743]

97. C'mon, use your head...

Let's assume you're right, and these guys are smuggling out details about these camps...Who the hell could use this information?
What? Is Al-qaida gonna stage an amphibious assault? Maybe paradrop some middle-eastern commandos? It's an isolated American military base in the middle of the Atlantic. Whatever else is wrong with our country's government right now, we still have the best soldiers using the best equipment in the world. Anybody who tried such a stunt would'nt get within a hundred miles of the place. And if getting out sensitive details about this place, why would these guys need documents? If these poor schleps have served at Gitmo, it stands to reason they would know details about the camp. They could draw diagrams from memory in the comfort of their own homes, without the need to risk the smuggling of documents.
Besides all that, we only have the word of the Bush admin. that they committed espionage. I submit that truth is not something that we can take for granted when it comes to this administration.

[DarkPhenyx]

104. How about you use your head?

please. the questions you are asking show that you have no idea how "interesting" that information would be to a terrorist organization. It's the small bits of intell that help you build a bigger picture of exactly what is going on. You rarely get the "Picasso" dropped in your lap. Since you have already made your mind up that everythign labeled "Bush" is a lie you wouldn't believe anything even suggesting that it might not be the case.

Big pis\cture people. Jsut becaseu Bush is an idiot, and Gitmo is "an evil place" dosen't mean people out there aren't tryng to destroy the US.

[rooddood743]

108. Did you even read what I said?

No, I have no idea how interesting such information would be, and neither do you. The key point, as I said, what could they do with the information?

And don't give me that crap, "you've already made up your mind"...When someone lies to me just once, I tend to be hesitant to believe them again. When someone lies repeatedly (you know, like Bush and friends), I don't believe a damn word they say unless they've got videotape.

And as for those people there trying to "destroy the U.S." Yeah. Those 14 year old kids they had there got me awake nights with the threat they pose to national security.

Beg pardon dude, but don't you think the Bush administration has enough apologists already? It's true that one of us here "has no idea"...and brother, it ain't me.

[sangh0]

110. Here's why the info could be important

They could tell who has been talking at Gitmo, and who has kept clammed up. It's not hard to tell. Just look around and see who's getting the "good" meals and other bennies, and who is not.

Then, based on who is talking, the terrorists can figure out what that detainee knows, and that tells which of their assets might be compromised.

[OrdinaryTa]

10. Another Bush Administration Screw-Up

The Bush Administration wants to scare the bejeezus out of Americans who show any human compassion to the prisoners in Guantanamo. It may backfire on them if Chaplain Yee or the airman demand a trial. Ashcroft got away with extorting a guilty plea from John Walker Lindh, possibly because Lindh's lawyers expected a quick conviction and execution.

Sounds like the two "traitors" are guilty of sending name rank and serial number back to the families of the prisoners. Ashcroft is a monster.

[leanings]

99. Demand a trial?

What do you think will happen to them? Thrown in a pond to see if they float? Ashcroft also doesn't have anything to do with prisoners at Gitmo; they're in military custody.

Get a clue.

[DealsGapRider]

11. I'm uncomfortable with the fact that...

...a number of DUers have immediately and reflexively concluded that either these guys were innocent, the prisoners at Gitmo are not dangerous or have nothing of value in terms of intelligence, or that the activities that got these guys in trouble were virtuous attempts to help connect the prisoners with their families or some other such well-intentioned acts.

How could you possibly know any of that?

[Bridget Burke]

13. Yes, but I'm uncomfortable....

with your previous messages about Guantanamo. You have no problem with people being held there indefinitely--for no reasons that can be disclosed.

According to you, we just need to trust the Bush regime without question.

[DealsGapRider]

18. I tend to trust the military to do the right thing.

That is not the same as trustinging the Bush regime. The majority of those prisoners were captured by the military. The rest were captured by the FBI and CIA. The people who make up those organizations are not Bush appointees, they're public servants. And I think generally speaking, they do the right thing. I think the Gitmo prisoners deserve to be there and yes, they need to be kept there even if their guilt can't be proven in an American-style court of law.

[Zero Gravitas]

22. Human rights violations

We KNOW that human rights violations are occuring at gitmo. These people are being detained with out trial, contact with out side world, and without being charged with anything. Nazis in WWII got better treatment than that. Who knows what else is going on there?

How many are actually innocent? how many are being tortured? There is no such thing as justice being dones in secret, it is a contradiction in terms.

I don't care what the motivations of the members of the military at gitmo are, they are still violating human rights by holding the prisoners there in violation of the Geneva convention etc. And before anyone gets their freeper panties in a knot, I am not suggesting that they be set free, just that they get minimum due process at least as POWs.

[DealsGapRider]

23. I am not aware of POWs in past wars being given trials.

"These people are being detained with out trial, contact with out side world, and without being charged with anything. Nazis in WWII got better treatment than that." Did they? Did we charge German POWs with crimes? No. Did we give foot soldiers trials? No. Did they get to write letters home? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

Sorry, whatever the Geneva Convention says, I agree with the "war" paradigm. I think we are at war, and I believe that these people are, for all intents and purposes, prisoners of war. It is perfectly appropriate that they be kept without trial.

And on the subject of human rights violations, I think it is important to note that we are treating these people extremely humanely. They have better access to health care, for example, than they ever did in the mountains of Afghanistan.

[Zero Gravitas]

25. POWs

you are correct, we did not try POWs. I think they could write letters home, and had certain rights as POWs. We are not treating the gitmo prisoners either as POWs OR as criminals. It should be one or the other. If you think we are "at war" (I do not) then these people should have POW status. Otherwise they should be charged with some crime and treated as criminals. This country used to pride itself on its fervant belief in basic human rights.

On edit:

Here is a link about POW rights: http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/03/pow032403.htm

They can send and recieve letters, and can not be tortured. Are gitmo prisoners beiong tortured? we have no way of knowing one way or the other. The Taliban has been defeated. Any Taliban held at Gitmo should be sent home now that the war in Afghanistan is over.

[DarkPhenyx]

58. Yes, they did get to write letters.

They were also entitled to visits from the Red Cross, and could receive care packages from their families through the RC

[Solomon]

36. Yes Yes and Yes the Nazi POWs got better treatment.

Just ask the black US soldiers who got second class treatment to German pows. Our own soldiers were treated worse.

[Drifter]

33. The Military follows orders from above ...

The military does not make decisions regarding how long a prisoner is kept at Gitmo.

The Military follows orders. These orders come from the WH. Your false sense of security (in trusting the Military), is nothing more than blind faith in the administration (whether you like it or not).

Each person at Gitmo should be charged with a crime (for purpose of a trial), or released immediately (along with proper compensation for false arrest).

Cheers
Drifter

[DealsGapRider]

35. I wasn't talking about the decision not to let the prisoners go...

...but rather their original apprehension. The guys who actually had the job of capturing fighters in Afghanistan and determining which were worthy of being sent to Gitmo were all military and CIA types. They captured thousands of men in Afghanistan, yet only about 660 are being held in Cuba. It's not like the White House was directing which ones to send to Gitmo. What I'm saying is that I generally trust the judgment of our troops and law enforcement types...I think the people in Gitmo probably each deserve to be there.

[DarkPhenyx]

60. and your lack of faith in the military...

...and complete disrespect for it, are nothing more than your bias and Bush hating being taken out on people who don't deserve it.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

52. DealsGap...read any accounts from soldiers from veitnam war and some of

the things they did...they will tell ya it was NOT the right thing!



http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:y8wAW6-_7eMC:

i spent 3 days in 1996 at a peace, justice and reconcilation conference with this little girl (now a women) Phan Thi Kim Phuc and the pilot who dropped the naplam bomb on her village killing her entire family. His name is John Plummer and he will tell you a different story :(

[DuctapeFatwa]

72. If you are accused of something and your guilt can't be proven

Should you be seized and imprisoned indefinitely too?

How about your family?

Under what circumstances should they be accused of something that can't be proven in a court of law and on the basis of that accusation, locked in cages?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

84. Yeah, it's not like the military has a history of human-rights violations

or anything...

When the soldiers in Charlie Company pushed into the hamlet, they expected to be locked into fierce combat with a Viet Cong battalion believed to be at My Lai. For three months the American unit had been in no major battles but had suffered a lot of casualties from snipers, mines, and booby traps. The soldiers were ready to prove themselves, ready to exact revenge on the enemy.

Charlie Company met no resistance; there were no Viet Cong soldiers at My Lai. Calley then ordered the slaughter of the civilians. People were rounded up into ditches and machine-gunned. They lay five feet deep in the ditches; any survivors trying to escape were immediately shot. When Calley spotted a baby crawling away from a ditch, he grabbed her, threw her back into the ditch, and opened fire. Some of the dead were mutilated by having "C Company" carved into their chests; some were disemboweled. One GI would later say, "You didn’t have to look for people to kill, they were just there. I cut their throats, cut off their hands, cut out their tongues, scalped them. I did it. A lot of people were doing it and I just followed. I just lost all sense of direction."
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/mylai.htm

[leanings]

101. You know why that incident persists

in our view of the US military? Because it's an extreme exception. Now, look at the history of the British, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Chinese, or just about any other military organization on the planet and tell me that My Lai type incidents are unusual in their histories.

The US military today is very much cognizant and respectful of human rights, sometimes to the detriment of it's own soldiers.

[rooddood743]

109. Keep this in mind

Yes, I too trust the military to do the right thing. But what is the president? He is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces.

These guys will do what they are ordered to do. And Bush is the one giving those orders.

Those who work at the E.P.A. are public servants. But they were ordered not to disclose health risks at the world trade center. Those who work for the G.A.O. are public servants, but they were intimidated into not appealing the court decision that ruled in favor of Cheney and his energy meetings.

I'm real sorry, though I wish it were'nt so, we don't live in the same America that we did a few years ago. The whole landscape has changed; the old rules are no longer applicable.

[Nevernose]

14. I tend to agree with you, in principle

A lot of DUers have a knee-jerk reaction to anything involving the military or government. But in an age of secret detentions and invisisble military tribunals, not to mention Patriot Acts, who can blame them?

Unfortunately, we'll never know if these two soldiers are innocent or guilty, because their trial (the instrument by which truth is established) will likely be held in secret.

[DarkPhenyx]

61. I can blame them.

and I will. There is no excuse for thinking rational people reacting this way.

[leanings]

100. Welcome to DU

Supports POV=obvious truth. Challenges POV=obvious lies. Reactionaries, just like Freepers, no different.

[BeFree]

12. Gitmo is an immoral place

Anything anybody can do to expose the immorallity of it is to be thanked.

The humans being held at Gitmo have been denied any justice. No judge has reviewed the reason for their incarceration.

The Geneva Convention rules applying to prisoners of war have not been followed at Gitmo.

I fully expect that Gitmo is but the first of many such camps and is being used as a proving ground for future camps.

I seriously doubt that the two accused soldiers will get any justice. I'd like to be proven wrong.

[DealsGapRider]

15. We have no idea what those soldiers did...

We don't know whether they were trying to "expose" what is going on down in Gitmo or whether they were actively aiding al Qaeda. We just don't know. Yet you reflexively assume that what they did was a good thing, an act of conscience. I wonder how someone gets to that point.

Look, no matter what you think about Bush and Co., these soldiers are subject to the UCMJ. If they violated the law and actively took steps to aid the enemy, that's treason. I don't think DUers should be so cavalier about endorsing treason. Call me crazy.

[BeFree]

19. We have no idea

There being a shroud of secrecy surrounding the whole affair, you have made a correct statement... "We have no idea". While you may be happy to be kept stupid, I, sir, am not. I want the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. That is the roadmap to justice.

As I'm sure you are aware, Hitler executed many of his soldiers for treason. Are you saying he had every right to do so?

[DealsGapRider]

21. But it sounds like you've already made up your mind...

...while admitting that you don't have any idea what you're talking about. Right, I'm the stupid one.

There is nothing unusual about secrecy surrounding matters of this sort. It's an espionage case. When people are arrested for espionage, they don't publish the evidence on the front page of the New York Times. Much of this information could be sensititive.

And please don't make any gratuitous references to Hitler, as if my position can somehow be compared to Naziism. It's immature.

[BeFree]

24. You sure do twist things

We are talking about the whole idea of Gitmo...which remains totally secret. This espionage issue is but a smll drip from the whole sordid affair. You seem to want to remain stupid as to the facts of the whole affair. That's fine. Go on your merry sheeply way. Just don't expect that you can do a bunch of baaah, baaah, baahing, here on DU and not be noticed. And called out. Or culled out, as the case may be.

Because people blindly believe what little bits of info they are fed, America is now in jeopardy. Same thing happened in Germany. We saw what happened there and then. Hitler executed many people who could have saved the world a whole lot of misery had they been able to spred the truth to the world. That's a fact.

[DarkPhenyx]

69. Yes...Hitler did have every right to do so.

Funny thing that. If his soldiers were in fact guilty of treason against Germany then they should have been executed.

As far as being "kept stupid" the arrest of these two soldiers most likely has nothing to do with the Government keeping thigns from us, and everything to do with the soldiers breaking the law. Or are you insinuating that they shouldn't be punished for any criems or violations that they may have commited?

[BeFree]

79. Most likely

Uh, ok, let's just go with most likely and to hell with justice and freedom and rights and all that.

Nope. Can't do it. Assuming that things are hunky dory is not what made America what it is. Education and the refusal to be stupid is what puts the "CAN" in American.

If the soldiers committed any crimes, then yes, let's have American justice and we will then know. But the way things are going with this whole Gitmo thing .... how can anybody be assured that justice will be served? Can you honestly tell me that you think all is being done with truth and justice?

[DarkPhenyx]

88. No soldier receives "American Justice"

Sorry. Dosen't work that way. We are subject to the UCMJ for things like this. Sorry you don't like it, but that is the way things are. Since they aer citizens adn soldiers they will be treated and judged accordingly.

[leanings]

102. People just don't get it.

Exposing the who what when where why and how of the Gitmo prisoners can and very probably would be detrimental to on-going operations affecting the security of the United States. That doesn't have anything to do with Bush or Iraq or warmongering or anything else. These are members of an organization that is devoted to killing American citizens. Valuable intelligence can be gained from them; valuable intelligence can be given away by revealing their exact circumstances. These folks are not soldiers under the GC; they are not entitled to POW status. This is not war in a conventional sense; it is assymetric, dirty and underhanded. If some innocent sheepherder spends a year or two in Gitmo along with several hundred dangerous terrorists, too bad. It's a tragedy. Tragedies happen every day. Our goal is to keep them to a minimum, and sometimes that means necessary evils. Any more idealistic point of view is marshmallow skys....

[DarkPhenyx]

105. Most of them are soldiers.

THey are definately entitled to GC protection. Remember...they were captured as we invaded their country. Not while they were conducting a terrorist operation. On this point I am going to disagree with you every time. These people are POW's. We, the US, are failing in our responsibilities to them.

[nomaco-10]

16. That's my take on it too...

These two men, a chaplain and a translator, were doing nothing more than trying to get some messages out to their families and probably documenting some abuses and violations.
They too are victims of the rampant paranoia and gestapo tactics of this administration. What do you bet we start hearing less and less about them in the news, while they rot away in the bowels of some federal prison without a trial or the benefit of council?
My hatred for this administration grows stronger with each passing day, as it that were possible.

[KaraokeKarlton]

17. I wonder if this is what happened to that US soldier who disappeared

I never heard anything about him being found. Maybe he was trying to get info out and got caught.

[Liberal Classic]

20. While I am uncomfortable with the situation...

Let me say that if reports are true these people had maps or plans of the camp X-ray and Guantanamo naval base and dossiers on military officials. This strikes me as being just a bit more than sneaking messages home for the prisoners.

Traditionally, traitors were hung and deserters shot. Leavenworth uses letal injection now.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

27. That's what we were TOLD they had....

Do you honestly believe one word that comes out of this administration's mouth?

I have no idea what those two were up two, but considering the Grand Canyon-size credibility gap of BushCo., I would say "SHOW ME THE PROOF".

[DealsGapRider]

28. I think it should be remembered that the Bush regime is not the same as...

...the military. That is not to say that the military doesn't take orders from Bush and Co., but there are huge numbers of activities that the military does that administration officials never get involved in. In the case of this espionage case, the first people who probably got involved in it were people on the ground in Gitmo who witnessed suspicious behavior, not civilians in the Pentagon. It could very well be that every decision in this case has been made by military officers alone with no input from the White House.

The point is, we don't know, so it's stupid to speculate that there's anything unseemly about this whole affair.

And frankly, I am a little tired of our collective disgust at the Bush Administration being transferred to the military, as if every action they undertake is suspect simply because Bush happens to be commander-in-chief at the moment.

[sattahipdeep]

29. Sickening Perversion

In Listening to America, there is an account of Congressman Emanuel Cellar's interview on National
Public Radio on May 16, 1973. In part, he said:

I wonder how many of our citizens were as frightened as I was by the ways of the Watergate
revelations. But for the courage of a federal judge and the persistence of some of the press, a
sickening perversion of our whole political process would have become a standard of political
behaviour.

http://www.us-history.info/chap_9.html

[DealsGapRider]

30. ?

?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

44. The Gitmo "terrorist" camp...

is PURE BushCo, sorry.

[DrWeird]

62. So you're saying

the excuse "I was just following orders" is OK?

And if it is the military's decision Re: gitmo, they deserve all the criticism they get and then some. Gitmo is probably the greatest atrocity committed by this country since the internment of the japanese, and those responsible are evil, cruel, and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

And shame on everybody who says that they're proud to be an american, that they love their freedom, and support Gitmo. It flies in the face of everything america is supposed to stand for.

[DealsGapRider]

78. Ridiculous

Look, there are principled, rational people who believe these prisoners should be granted trials. I respect that position even if I don't agree with it. But to call Camp X-Ray an "atrocity" is just silly, over-the-top, hysterical hyperbole. For Christ's sake, these people are literally enjoying better health care and food than they received in Afghanistan.

Read "Playing Offense in the War on Terror" by David E. Kaplan of USNews.com. Note this excerpt:

Half-Dead Bob. By early 2002, America and its allies had locked up nearly 1,000 al Qaeda members and supporters. Planeloads of captives from Afghanistan soon filled the holding pens of Camp X-Ray, the hastily built prison at the U.S. naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Some inmates left a lasting impression on their keepers, among them an emaciated fellow they called Half-Dead Bob. The Arab fighter had come to Gitmo, as the base is called, weighing a bare 66 pounds last year. He had shrapnel wounds, suffered from tuberculosis, and had lost a lung. Army Maj. Gen. Michael Dunlavey vividly remembers his first encounter with "Bob." Dunlavey ran interrogations at the base until November of last year. By the time they met, Bob was making a rapid recovery. He had put on 50 pounds and, sitting across a table from Dunlavey, he thanked him for the food and medical treatment. "General, you are probably a good Christian," Dunlavey recalls him saying. "And you are probably a good man. But if I ever get free, I will kill you."

If restoring the health of half-dead terrorists is an "atrocity," I'm Frankenstein.

[DrWeird]

80. Locking up anybody without due process is an atrocity.

Waving the flag while doing it is even worse. Locking up somebody in a dog cage, exposed to the elements and then claiming that they have it better off then at home is just plain disgusting. That's like saying the slaves had it better off because they weren't back in africa, worrying about getting eaten by lions.

[DealsGapRider]

83. First off...

...they're not in dog cages. They're in cells that are no smaller than those that house thousands of prisoners in the US. Second, "exposed to the elements" is relative. We're talking about sunny Cuba here, not Siberia. And it is simply a matter of fact that they are receiving better health care in Gitmo than they did in somecave in Afghanistan. Each incoming prisoner was given a full medical examination and chest x-ray, and many have received extensive treatment for long-standing injuries. You may not like to admit it, but that doesn't make it less true.

[TNOE]

113. WISH I WOULD HAVE FOUND THIS POST EARLIER

Catching up on my DU Reading - HOWEVER Dealsgaprider - YOU SHOULD BE INFORMED AND KNOW THAT A VERY LONG TIME FRIEND OF MINE WHOSE SON IS IN THE MILITARY AND WHOSE JOB IT IS TO GUARD THESE PRISONERS TOLD HER:


"Mom, You don't even want to know what goes on over here and how bad it is. Most of these "PRISONERS" are nothing but little kids."

SO THIS IS FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH - SO INSTEAD OF NOT KNOWING - YOU KNOW

[rooddood743]

111. Jesu Christo!!

It's "stupid to speculate?"!! Krikey man, where have you been the last couple of years? Practically every bloody thing that Bush has uttered has turned out to be a lie. Those sociopaths have done more damage to our country in two years than any power-foreign or domestic-has done in two hundred.

And you can get off that business that I am criticizing the military, 'cause it just ain't so. My old man served over twenty years, and I have nothing but admiration and respect for our soldiers. My criticism is directed squarely where it belongs; at Bush and Co. If you would actually read what I've posted, you would see that I've said not one negative thing about our military. And I would be grateful if you would stop characterizing my comments that way.

[Liberal Classic]

71. What motivation behind falsehood in this case?

I wonder what reaons would the government have to framing these two Muslim servicemen?

[DrWeird]

76. Well, they're muslim.

And the military just murdered thousands of muslims after framing a whole country for 9-11. So arresting a couple more muslims for doing nothing wrong isn't out of character.

[Liberal Classic]

82. But there are thousands of other U.S. servicemen of Muslim creed

Why just these two? They're at the same installation with the same mission guarding the same group of irregulars, who happen to share their same faith. What if the government is not lying, and these two were attempting to smuggle out plans of the camp and dossiers on personel?

[DealsGapRider]

85. The idea that these two actually might be guilty...

...or that the military (or America for that matter) is not irredeemably racist and anti-Muslim, or that Islamic terrorists actually should be fought, seem like alien concepts to some of the people on this board.

[Liberal Classic]

95. It does seem that way at times...

But I don't want to over generalize. I believe that most posters around here find our military to be comprised of good people, and though the aims of the goverment may sometimes be faulty our men and women do an admirable job. The remaining few, however, appear to be convinced that the U.S. is evil incarnate, what with the Bush administration and the prison military industrial complex and all that jazz, such that nearly any opposition is justified.

[Samaka 3ajiba]

94. A possible motivation by the government

... is if these two servicemen were funneling info to human rights organizations. I don't think they are being persecuted for being Muslim, I think they are being framed for what they know about the abuses of the US military at the camp.

[Liberal Classic]

96. I don't deny it's a possibilty

It's within the realm of possibility that the irregulars are suffering extreme tourture techniques, and that that the people who are under investigation for spying are nothing more than humanitarian whistle-blowers. However, the prisoners have been visited by outside agencies, such as the International Red Cross who, while objecting to their isolation, did not claim they were being physically abused. A number of senators and representatives have also seen the conditions there. Again, it's possible that the legislative branch of the government is covering up for the military with the Red Cross' complicity, just how likely I don't know. Has any news agency or watchdog group claimed association with the people charged with spying? If this was an episode of whistleblowing, wouldn't the people have been in contact with news agencies and humanitarian groups?

[DarkPhenyx]

106. Red Cross complicity...

...isn't very likely at all. These are the people who were saying they couldn't go into Iraq and offer aid becasue the Bush Admin was trying to use it as a political chip, which violates their charter.

[sattahipdeep]

26. "government misconduct."

Daniel Ellsburg Pentagon Papers

http://www.us-history.info/chap_9.html

[ElsewheresDaughter]

31. my opinion...they have to discredit these US miltary men who will expose

the truth of the evil deeds being done in our name...we have done the same and maybe worse than (because we are suppose to above the rest) the al qaeda...SOA style tortures and treatment of POWs...ahem in mean "enemy combants"

[DealsGapRider]

32. How do you know we've tortured prisoners?

Evidence? Links?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

37. notice #2 stones they are kneeling on and the angle of their bodies?

http://www.geocities.com/torturevictim/cuba.html




We already know from the Kandahar photographs that all of these prisoners were subjected to sensory deprivation while en-roue to Cuba, a time period of more than thirty hours. The prime objective of this was total disorientation, which would have been achieved. We know they were forced to wear gloves, meaning their tactile senses were severely limited. We know they were forced to wear full-face hoods, meaning their visual senses were neutralized, and, at best, their auditory senses severely affected.
We do not yet know whether the prisoners were forced to wear ear muffs inside their hoods during the long flight, so at this stage it is impossible to determine which particular auditory effect was desired by their torturers. If hoods were worn without earmuffs, the prisoners would have been subjected to muffled non-stop monotonous aircraft noise, not unlike the “white noise” used in Northern Ireland by the British (see Part One for details). If hoods and earmuffs were worn together, then all sound would have been suppressed, robbing the prisoners of their ability to compensate balance using the middle ear, every time the aircraft pitched or rolled. If you doubt this is genuine psychological torture, try wearing mittens, handcuffs, leg irons, a full-face hood and a set of earmuffs while riding a roller coaster. You will very swiftly change your mind. Now try riding the same roller coaster in this condition non-stop for thirty hours.




Torturers with wives and families, like to play make-believe about treatment like this, because somehow they have to justify their actions to their loved ones and themselves. Some will act like President Bush and claim “they had it coming to them”, while others will try and pretend that the pictures leaked by the US Navy from Camp X Ray simply show the men waiting to be allocated individual cells. No they do not, and besides, who are these men? We have no way of telling whether these pitiful creatures were really members of the largely imaginary al Qaeda, members of the Taliban, or simply Afghan citizens snatched off the street of Kandahar or Kabul by the Central Intelligence Agency.
Now take a close look at the photographs. The one of the left was leaked by the US Navy, and the one of the right is my modest attempt to enlarge a section to show the actual equipment attached to each man. The first point to strike any analyst looking at the left hand picture is that all ten prisoners are kneeling with their legs crossed under their buttocks. Not a very comfortable position, and not one they would choose. If the prisoners were merely waiting for cells they could have been seated on simple benches bolted to the ground, but were not. In the position they have been forced to squat, their calves and feet will eventually go numb, thereby enhancing the overall effect of sensory deprivation; a form of torture expressly prohibited in America and most other civilized nations. This point alone provides hard evidence of torture by the three Americans shown in the photograph, who can later be identified and prosecuted for war crimes.

Once more in the left picture, although the prisoners cannot see each other at all, all ten are leaning forwards at an angle more acute than that required by the handcuffs attached to the waist belts. Why? Also, with the sole exception of the central figure, all have their heads hanging down close to their chests. Why? For any analyst this is a tough call, but the answer is of critical importance in determining the prisoners’ exact treatment during the hour immediately before this photograph was taken

[spinbaby]

38. Anyone have the photo?

You know, the one of the prisoners tied up in the plane. I sure consider that to be torture.

[DealsGapRider]

40. Tying up prisoners is torture?

What's next, handcuffing suspects is police brutality?

Come on, people.

[spinbaby]

41. Have you seen the photo?

.

[DealsGapRider]

43. Yeah, I saw the photo.

They securely detained a number of very dangerous people. BFD. And I remember thinking, 20 bucks says someone whines about how we're "torturing" these prisoners. And I was right!

[spinbaby]

45. Tell ya what,

I'll arrange for you to travel under these conditions that don't constitute torture. Nothing but the best for you!

[Blue_Chill]

48. I guess some think we should have sat them in first

class and offered them beverages. After all these people are "freedom fighters" right? please......

They should get a fair trial but I have not seen evidence of torture.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

47. plane photos..over 30 hours in flight

[Solomon]

42. Ahhh give it up dealsgap.

Given the history of this administration I'd say its reasonable to suspect everything they tell us. It's called a presumption. And its richly earned. There is NO FUCKING EXCUSE for secret detentions. NONE.

[BeFree]

49. Don't stop, DGR

You've managed to keep this thread alive and thereby help expose some of the mis-information the sheeple are being fed. You, DGR, being a fine example and representative of the sheeple, are doing a fine job. Ride on!

[Blue_Chill]

51. You accuse DGR of being a "sheeple" yet you have proof of nothing?

Perhaps you should rethink your position.

[Minstrel Boy]

57. The proof is in the posting:

"The majority of those prisoners were captured by the military. The rest were captured by the FBI and CIA. The people who make up those organizations are not Bush appointees, they're public servants. And I think generally speaking, they do the right thing. I think the Gitmo prisoners deserve to be there and yes, they need to be kept there even if their guilt can't be proven in an American-style court of law."

DGR believes detainees need to be locked-up indefinitely even if their guilt cannot be established. Why? Because the military, FBI and CIA are public servants who generally "do the right thing." Sorry, but opinion based upon blind faith in authority sounds to me like the bleating of a sheep.

[BeFree]

59. Perhaps..

But I don't think so.

The only reason I don't have any more info than you is because... it's a Secret. The incarceration of fellow human beings is a total friggin' secret. I'd sure as hell would hope that others would question, WTF?, when they come for me. I see that I can't count on some of you to raise a voice. Thank God you are in a minority on DU. Too bad you rule Amerika.

That's not my country - Amerika - my country is the land of the FREE - America.

[DealsGapRider]

68. How juvenile is using the spelling "Amerika"?

That's the kind of thing I see on t-shirts being worn by pretentious 17-year-old Rage Against the Machine fans who think they're terribly brave and enlightened for exposing the "truth" about the "fascist, corporate" US government. Blech. :puke:

[BeFree]

73. Amerika

Is what I call Gitmo. It is owned by America, but is not a part of America. Therefore...Amerika. Also connotates a Nazi like rule in the US. Ya know...concentration camps and stuff like that. Not juvenile at all.

But thanks for your personal attack. Just like Bush, no facts, just attacks.

[Blue_Chill]

75. no facts, just attacks.

Kind of like this post of yours?

You've managed to keep this thread alive and thereby help expose some of the mis-information the sheeple are being fed. You, DGR, being a fine example and representative of the sheeple, are doing a fine job. Ride on!

:eyes:

[Hanuman]

91. Hear Hear! The Red Cross has visited Gitmo

and have found no evidence of torture or mistreatment.

Those detainees can stay there on my tax money until they're too old and toothless to kill a bowl of jello let alone shoot at another US soldier.

I don't even care to give them a trial- truth be told, because I don't honestly know that our system of justice is equipped to handle their cases.

I would however want to see regular visits from humanitarian agencies to inspect the conditions in perpetuity. No reason to mistreat them, let's just keep them away from the rest of humanity.

[Blue_Chill]

50. Wrong

Assuming things without evidence makes one look like a hysterical fool.

My argument against this nonsense is that I see no reason not to give these men a trial. Clinton was able to do it, why can't bush?

[DrWeird]

55. Like assuming they are highly dangerous?

"When authorites were asked how a 14-year-old boy could be responsible for a series of murders over 25 years ago, authorities said: 'he's very clever' "

-Beavis and Butthead

[Blue_Chill]

65. Didn't I just say they deserve a trial?

We shouldn't assume anything, we shoul demand evidence. However lobbing assumptions as if they are facts discredits us and makes it easier for us to be ignored.

[DrWeird]

67. Yeah, give them a trial and then convict them.

"They securely detained a number of very dangerous people."

What are the masks for? So they can't shoot laser beams out their eyes?

[DarkPhenyx]

90. Amen.

I'm glad someone said this besides me.

[Zero Gravitas]

64. How do you know they're not being tortured

The sort of people who will hold prisoners without trial or charge or even give them minimum POW status are exactly the sort of people who will torture prisoners for information as clearly that sort of person doesn't care about human rights. When you operate in secrecy anything is possible, justice doesn't have to hide from the outside world, torture does. If they have nothing to hide at Gitmo, why are they hiding it?

[Plaid Adder]

34. That was the first thing I thought of: they're telling the families

where their relatives are.

It could, of course, be something entirely more nefarious. But basically, it seems as if for this administration, ANY information that comes out of Guantanmo would be considered dangerous, even, "Yes, we have your son in detention."

You know, when these guys are out of power and someone does an expose on Guantanamo, what we find there is going ot be UNBELIEVABLY ugly.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[DealsGapRider]

39. Congressman Peter DeFazio disagrees with you...

Congressman DeFazio, former chairman of the House PROGRESSIVE Caucus, visited Gitmo and certified that the prisoners were being well treated:


Despite this, military officials contend the United States is treating the prisoners well, while still maintaining rigid security measures.

Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Oregon, confirmed the military position.

"I believe that the United States is in fact exceeding the requirements of international law and human rights in the treatment of these people," DeFazio said.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/26/ret.guantanamo.detainees/?related

[BeFree]

46. If that's the case

Why keep it so secret? Why not bring these humans onto American soil? Oh, wait, I know why... because then laws would be broken. See, the laws in Gitmo are not the same laws we live under. At least not for now.

[DealsGapRider]

63. I confess, I don't know why they're being held in Gitmo.

But Gitmo is, for all intents and purposes, American soil. The same laws apply to the Marines stationed there that apply to Marines stationed in the US. This statement, "See, the laws in Gitmo are not the same laws we live under" is not true.

[pschoeb]

86. This was a PR/intelligence trip

It's not like the 17 Congressmen who went to Gitmo brought their own private Pashtun and Arabic translators and were allowed to talk in private with the prisoners, which would be the only way of having any chance of determining their treatment when the Congressmen were not present. There was only a four hour inspection visit/tour. Also the main point of the visit was intelligence, not Geneva convention violations.

From the Guardian
"This has nothing to do whatsoever with treatment of prisoners," said Rep. Porter Goss, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.
...
A handful of the 20-strong Guantanamo delegation did say they would look at the prisoners' conditions, but almost all said the priority of the trip was to check whether the inmates were providing intelligence in interrogations which began on Wednesday.
...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1002720,00.html

From AP story

The only legislator who said he would examine how the prisoners were treated, Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Bob Graham, canceled his trip because of a Senate vote on the economic stimulus plan, his spokesman said.

http://www.yorknewstimes.net/stories/012502/nat_0125020026.shtml

Also this visit was some 15 day after the arrival of the first 158 prisoners, there was another delegation of 10 on March 15 2002. There were two Democrats on this visit Thomas Allen of Maine and Robert Underwood of Guam. The last visit was a delegation of 6, after released prisoners said they were beaten and constantly restrained. During all these visits the delegation were not present during an actual interrogation session. This despite the fact that the last visit was supposed to acertain what went on during an interrogation. There was a visit by 3 congressman in July, that actually got to see an interrogation, but this visit was just for the Armed Service Committee to get a better feel for the base and possible construction needs.

These visits hardly constitute an investigation by any stretch of the imagination.

As an example of how meaningless this can be, the Red Cross gave a thumbs up to the ghetto of Theresienstadt/Terezin , because the Nazis made it look great for the short time the Red Cross was there. The Nazis even made a nice film called "Der Führer schenkt den Juden eine Stadt" or "The Leader gives the Jews a town."

Patrick Schoeb

[rooddood743]

112. Welladay now...

I assume this was a surprise visit, hmmmm? When I was young, and had a party at my parents house while they were away. I knew when they would be home. You can bet that there was no evidence of that hell-raiser by the time they arrived.

[DrWeird]

53. Everything changed after 9-11.

Due Process is now unamerican.

[DarkPhenyx]

70. Really hate that...

"evrything changed on 9/11" crap. Jack dick changed. Not one damn thing changed that day. I don't count people being afraid as a change.

[bpilgrim]

98. USA PATRIOT ACT changed a LOT

a LOT has actually changed specially our foreign policy.

peace

[DarkPhenyx]

107. That I will agree with.

USAPA definately changed a few things here in the US. It didn't do bupkiss about our foreign policy though. We've always been an agressive ego-centric country when it comes to foreign policy.

[Clete]

66. Concentration camps.

In Nazi Germany, Jews and other undesirables were arrested in the middle of the night, shipped to the camps without recourse to legal representation. No one knew what happened to them. No one was privvy as to what was happening in the camps. Eventually, we know what happened to the concentration camp victims after they were freed by the allies.

The same thing is happening here and I think concerned citizens should demand that Gitmo be investigated by a neutral agency like the ACLU and Red Cross or Crescent. These criminals in our government will have no problem justifying anything they do to the prisoners or others who try to help them. I think the chaplains are victims of a witch hunt.

[DuctapeFatwa]

74. And most of the voting class support atrocities against Muslims

and other ethnic minorities that they view as "undesirable."

When the same things are done to affluent white Americans, there will probably be a small flurry of increased concern expressed, but as any honest elderly German will tell you, these are not things it is in anyone's best interests to dwell on, or speak of, lest you become the next one seized....

[berry]

77. I wonder if they ever intended these arrests to be made public?

I can't decide if the Gitmo "espionage" arrests are something BushCo needed or wanted for propaganda purposes, or if it news about it slipped out by chance, and then had to be dealt with. Either way, the reports out of the Pentagon make it sound like these 2 are monsters who would "betray" their country. Given the times we live in, this needs to be doubted.

If the charges against these 2 guys are anything like the accusations that Saddam had WMD, each one of the "crimes" is probably something that can be made to look bad, but is really nothing. The Bushies* are very good at puffing up evidence. Also, I wonder how many of the "crimes" are only criminal offences since the passing of the Patriot Act. My first reaction to this was that these people were trying to let families know what had happened to their sons/brothers/fathers.

Maps of the facilities? Sounds bad--but maybe they just drew a square and showed the dimensions of the cell and what little was in it, with dimensions noted. That could be called a "map"--and the intention would clearly be only to show the conditions, but without knowing what the "map" really was, who would know it wasn't a plan to break out the captives? And how vulnerable IS Gitmo? I can't believe it isn't adequately protected (if its all that important to "national defense").

Lists of the prisoners? By international law and common sense humanitarianism, this should be public info. That releasing this information be called "treason" is a dangerous playing with words.

Notes and letters from prisoners? Ted Koppel showed last night that though some families are getting letters, they are highly censored (I wonder what is blacked out?). The greater problem has been that letters the families write to the prisoners are not being delivered. Their letters show that they have no idea what their families are thinking or how they are. One of the military guys there said it was policy to keep the prisoners anxious and fearful. It was also mentioned in passing that there have been 31 suicide attempts at Gitmo since it was set up.

Information about flight schedules in and out of Gitmo? Hmm. They mention in passing the date of their own arrival, by plane? Yup, that would be classified, dangerous info. (We KNOW that BushCo* takes tidbits of "info" and blow them up into "reasons" for going to war. Why wouldn't they do the same here?) Or maybe they even heard planes leaving and landing, and are passing that info on. How important could that be? Surely, planes are coming and going all the time. But maybe it's a list of flights with new prisoners--and maybe it's more than we knew. Maybe the total number of prisoners there is not what we are being told. Who could this kind of info help? Hmm. Critics of Bush policy, maybe?

The problem here, as elsewhere these days, is secrecy that covers up civil rights and human rights violations. Whistleblowing becomes incalculably more risky, because in the military the penalty for such "treason" might be death.

What I want to know is 1. Exactly, precisely, what information is in question. and 2. HOW that info compromises national security. I don't think we're likely to get answers to these, however, because their whole purpose is to create fear in people through secrecy. I know nothing about Gitmo or the prisoners there, but I mistrust the people who created it along with the whole War on Terror. Someone on Nightline also said that most prisoners would be held until the "war" is over--and yet Bush* has said it could last a lifetime.

One other thought--people in the military always had limits put on their civil rights. Was the Patriot Act intended to put all of us under the same sort of military justice system?

[AP]

81. That's exactly the same reading that I have.

You stick anyone with a conscience in with those prisoners and you're probably going to get exactly the same result.

Of course, this case will be tried in a military tribunal, and we'll never know the truth.

[DarkPhenyx]

92. They won't be tried by military tribunal.

Jesus, can anyone stop being reactionary here?

The soldiers involved will be tried by Courts Martial, which is not the same thing. They will have lawyers, and a even have the oppertunity to be tried by their peers.

[pschoeb]

87. Most interesting charge, distributing baklava

One of the allegations is that he conducted "unauthorized communications with detainees" because he brought them baklava pastries.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20030924_1472.html

The court papers submitted by the US military authorities also claim SA Halabi took photographs of the camp, had unauthorised contacts with prisoners - including giving them baklava pastries - and had unauthorised contacts with the Syrian embassy. He is also accused of lying to the Air Force by claiming to have been naturalised a US citizen in 2001.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=446744

Additionally, he is accused of furnishing and delivering unauthorized food, such as baklava pastries, to detainees.

http://www.lompocrecord.com/articles/2003/09/24/news/news03.txt

Why even have this as a charge? when it seems so spurious and stupid. The last article seems to have a statement to the fact by one of the military spokesmen, that the information could benefit Qatar. Since it's doubtfull anyone thinks Qatar is going to attempt to free prisoners, attack the US, or supports Al Queda, what benefit could Qatar get?

Patrick Schoeb

[DarkPhenyx]

89. Aid and comfort.

That would be my guess. Additionally, if it is against regs to provide unauthorized items to the prisoners, just like it is in US jails, tehn that is really the charge reguardless of the item distributed. Yes, baklava is a pretty simply item, but it is still a violation. Thus the charge.

[VelmaD]

93. Yup...what you said

food seems like a silly little thing to be worried about til you think about it. It becomes a part of the underground barter economy in a prison which is a danger to both the inmates and the guards. (I just finished auditing this very thing in the TX youth prisons).

DV

[frank frankly]

103. HALLIBURTON BUILT GITMO!

Thanks to the great Tom Tommorrow for this one:

http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2002/08/05/tomo/index.html