Dean: "I'm not a liberal"

[wyldwolf]

"I don't mind being characterized as 'liberal,' I just don't happen to think it's true."

Howard Dean, Salon, FEB 19, 2003

Bill Maher, speaking of Dean avoiding the term, liberal: "General {Clark}, do you want to run away from that word?

Clark: "No!" He then said America was a liberal democracy.

Sort of like the Clark thread on "I like these people."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. I'm a welfare state liberal

It was liberals who saved capitalism from itself.....

[CWebster]

2. Dean was smeared with the charge

but he never pretended he was a liberal. Why should he be concerned about running from it?

Clark is playing with language here- but for a General with his foot in the door of the Military-Industrial complex, a long history of voting for some of the most reactionary and dangerous Republicans, his cozy relationships with the worst characters operating behind the scenes of the Bush administration and his inability to differentiate between Republican and Democrats up until a few weeks ago, I would say he is not the best authority on the subject.

[wyldwolf]

4. Smeared with the charge?

It isn't a "charge." It's a direct quote.

And I find it so hysterical that each day, Dean supporter post the same things about Clark over and over, but when similar things are posted about Dean, we get "it's a smear and a charge!"

[CWebster]

10. So

They tried to marginalize him with the liberal-baiting tactic. This came not only from the Right and the corporate press but from the Democratic party establishment who despises Dean for the threat he represents and embraces Clark for the threat that he is not.

[wyldwolf]

11. Now THAT is funny...

...you're either admitting he isn't a liberal or that he's lying about it.

[Brian Sweat]

84. That's what Dean should've said when they accused him of being a liberal.

If instead of running away from the "charge," more liberals held their chin up high and said, "damn right I'm a liberal and proud of it," the right would not be able to use it as a dirty word.

We need more people that can make us proud to be liberal and fewer people who are ashamed of it.

[meegbear]

8. then why is he hiding from it?

or is he a LINO?

[VermontDem2004]

14. Who said he was hiding from it?

It is true he isn't a liberal and he isn't hiding the fact that he isn't, I can show you over 50 quotes of him saying that he is a centrist.

[Terwilliger]

25. smeared with the charge?

just what does that mean?

[CWebster]

33. C'mon Ter

It wasn't intended as a compliment. It would be like accusing Kucinich of being a socialist. That might be fine by you and me--but for the typical voter with a spoon-fed awareness until last week? The more you know, the Lefter you go. ;-)

[Terwilliger]

38. Yes, and Dean is trying to run away from it

I dont respect that at all.

I mean, isn't that the reason we don't like Clark? Because he's getting in to the race by being the counterpoint to Bush? So Dean is trying to shy away from the liberal label because...he isn't liberal at all?

Or, he wants to appeal to a certain voting demographic...like Clark does.

[CWebster]

42. No he isn't Ter-

I wouldn't respect him if he claimed that he was. He never claimed that he was. He is just practical, has a good grasp of reality and calls it like he sees it.

[Terwilliger]

44. so he's not liberal at all

do all of his supporters realize this?

is it wrong to be liberal?

why is he a Democrat if he's "just practical, has a good grasp of reality and calls it like he sees it." He should just call himself a citizen and not run with the Democratic party.

[wyldwolf]

47. He was raised in a Republican family...

...and even wrote in a highschool yearbook: "From the outside looking in, I am: A Prefect making a thousand announcements in assembly, a dorm prefect with a big stick, a big brother talking to Deacon or Benny, a solid conservative defending the powers of Student Council and lashing out at cynics and opponents."

[Terwilliger]

48. so what does that make Clark?

a neocon? Hell, he voted for Reagan twice and Nixon.

Your answer to my question makes me like Clark even less.

[wyldwolf]

50. I didn't say it made Dean anything...

...I was agreeing with you that Dean isn't what his supporters think he is.

Nixon and Reagan weren't neocons - though I was disappointed he voted for them.

But you've got to consider that the Democrats shouldered a lot of negativity after Viet nam.

And MANY democrats voted for Reagan (not an excuse but a fact.)

Clark also voted Clinton twice.

[Terwilliger]

yes, you implied that Dean was a liar

I think Clark is a liar. He plays up being a Democrat but voted for Reagan and Nixon. How? How are Democrats who vote for Republicans supposed to get respect? Are you saying you're NOT a partisan, and other Republicans can be elected...just not Bush?

[AWD]

74. I am a Dean supporter...

....and I know he is not a liberal.

Do not state that we do not know what Dean is. We know what he is. And we like it, and support him.

By the way, he ran as a Democrat. He proclaimed himself a Dem a while ago...much more than 2 weeks ago.

[tjdee]

69. WHERE did you get this quote?

If Dean called himself a "solid conservative", how do we know he didn't vote for Nixon? TWICE? Do we know he voted for Mondale? Nobody's ever asked him, and he could lie. Same goes for the other candidates--no one has asked how they voted before they entered politics, and we honestly would never know if they were telling the truth or not.

And personally, I don't CARE. These elections were years and years ago, and this has to be one of the HUGHEST fake issues I've ever heard at DU.

If Clark was such a Republican and a neo-con, he would be sitting this out and letting Bush go along his merry way.

[stickdog]

121. Jesus Christ, his FUCKING HIGH SCHOOL YEARBOOK.

Dude, that was before the Summer of Love.

Dean roomed with two black student activists at Yale.

[gully]

59. Dean simply doesn't like labels...

It's not that complicated really guys. He prefers we discuss the 'issues'...

:loveya:

[Terwilliger]

64. Doesn't like labels, yet he's "not liberal"

Well, he certainly defines his own assertions with labels.

Did he refer to himself as centrist? Isn't that a label?

[gully]

94. Well, let's look at the quote 'in context' shall we?

"I don't mind being characterized as a liberal, I just don't happen to think that it is true".

Big mother f'n deal!

Socal liberal, Fiscal conservative...It's exactly what we need with the record debt were facing today.

[blm]

81. Dean lashed out at "LIBERALS like Marian Wright Edelman"

as governor of Vermont, and scorned them regularly. So, obviously he had NO problem with labels when he was aligning himself with the GOP there.

If Dean "doesn't like labels" then why did he use the word "liberal" pejoratively so often and for so long?

Why does he call himself a centrist?

March 2002
http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/2794665.htm
Dean, a medical doctor, describes himself as "a bit unusual" for a Democrat. For one thing, "I'm very conservative about money," he said. Also, he pointed out, he has been endorsed by the National Rifle Association.

"I have trouble with the liberal wing of my own party," Dean said.

Other things working in his favor, he added, are: "I'm not from Washington. I'm very direct with people. I say what I think. People always know where I stand. ‘.‘.‘. I think people are ready for that."

[gully]

92. Social liberal - fiscal conservative = centrist.

EGADS!

whateva! I've got bigger fish to fry myself. I think Dean is just what we need to clean up this mess W's gotten us into.

Fiscal conservative is sounding pretty damn good bout now!!

[blm]

98. Fiscal conservatives made this mess.

Fiscal moderation is the key.

Conservatives cut liberal programs first.

btw...are you now admitting you were wrong to say "Dean doesn't like labels" when he himself has used the labels to describe himself as a centrist and others as liberals?

[gully]

100. Bull, Bush cuts programs and cuts taxes for the wealthy

Bush has not turned down ONE spending bill. He has the highest deficit in the history of the US. And, he has cut social programs to boot.

In Vermont Dean added new programs and balanced the budget...

Dean has boldly said, he'll eliminate the tax cut to pay down the debt. He has extensive plans for health care coverage, educational and job programs.

http://howard-dean-for-president.mydd.com/2004.html

[gully]

103. Well Dean said he doesn't care what you call him....

Take that for what it is. Perhaps he likes 'all' labels equally?

"Well, if being a liberal is balancing the budget that's fine with me. And I'll bet it's fine with most Americans. If being a liberal is joining Canada and Britain and France and Germany and Japan and Italy and Israel in having universal health insurance for all of its citizens, then you may call me what you want."~Howard Dean

In case you didn't see it...

[blm]

110. In case you didn't see it, it was said AFTER he tacked left.

Which was AFTER the antiwar movement grew.

Before that he labeled "liberals" and scorned them. He labeled himself a centrist, a New Democrat, a DLCer.

YOU can be sold by his fighting populist rhetoric. I don't trust anyone who becomes a fighting populist halfway through his campaign.

[gully]

96. Howard Dean said...

"Well, if being a liberal is balancing the budget that's fine with me. And I'll bet it's fine with most Americans. If being a liberal is joining Canada and Britain and France and Germany and Japan and Italy and Israel in having universal health insurance for all of its citizens, then you may call me what you want."

[blm]

99. That was AFTER he tacked left...before that

he, himself, used liberal as a pejorative term.

[gully]

109. Funny he had such admiration for Paul Wellstone then?

During the 1988 presidential race between Republican George Bush and Democrat Michael Dukakis, the term liberal was a disparaging moniker. On Tuesday, Dean said there are reasons to wear the label with pride.

And the 54-year-old physician said if his fight against the Bush administration's education policy that establishes federal standards for local school boards is liberal "then you may call me what you want, I'm proud of it."

Label Dean how you want. He doesn't give a shit...

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/04/democrats.dean.ap/

[blm]

112. AFTER the antiwar movement grew.

And he sure didn't listen to Wellstone about Sierra Blanca did he?

Wellstone was the very liberal that Dean scorned for years as governor.

[gully]

124. Scorn quotes and links to scorn quotes please...

:eyes:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

29. no difference between Clark and Dean on 99% of the issues - both DLC

Dean people are quick to spin any of Dean's questionable statements, and Clark people are quick to spin any of Clark's questionable statements.

Both men are DLC through and through, "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" establishment players.

So Dean's not a liberal - this is no surprise to anyone who is at all familiar with his terms as governor. And Clark people are really surprised that Clark isn't an anti-war peace hippie? Come on people!

[CWebster]

34. Dean is no longer DLC,

he is quoted as saying they have had good ideas in the past but have swung too far to the right. The DLC attacks him continually, for crying out loud.

Clarks positions echo Dean because he studies the strategy of sucess. Other than that he is straight Clinton-speak down to the buzz words.

[Mairead]

39. Which is why neither is on my dance card

I don't date DLCers. I've had it with them.

[veganwitch]

40. i think dennis is going to have some tired feet!

green dot to mairead!

[gully]

60. Bravisimo!!!!

Your right, they mirror one another on the issues. And, if we ever needed a fiscal conservative, we need it now.

REPEAL THE BUSH TAX CUTS!!! ;)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

63. Bush claims to be a "fiscal conservative"

Everyone is a "fiscal conservative" - whatever the word used to mean, now it means "pro-corporation" and "pro-wealth".

[noiretextatique]

78. we need someone who is fiscally RESPONSIBLE

those tax cuts are a prime example of fiscal irresponsibility :hi:

[gully]

107. damn right!

:toast:

[veganwitch]

36. never pretended he was liberal?!?!

bullocks!

so are you saying he misspoke, lied, was high on crack, etc. when he stole "im from the democratic wing of the democratic party" from the late, and truly progressive, Sen. Paul Wellstone.

if he is going to retract his "off the cuff" comments that were false about other canditates, he should focus especially on when it is a false statement against himself.

[retyred]

49. a long history of voting for reactionary and dangerous Republicans?

Maybe voting for Raygun once is a long history of voting for some of the most reactionary and dangerous Republicans?

WOW! No stretch of the facts there!

Please post the list of Clark's voting record so we ALL can see just how reactionary and dangerous this guy is!



CLARK FOR PRESIDENT
Retyred IN FLA.

[EagleEye]

3. You're headline is blatantly Misleading

[wyldwolf]

6. Riiiiight!

Dean saying, "I don't mind being characterized as 'liberal,' I just don't happen to think it's true." is totally different than saying "I'm not a liberal."

[clar]

5. Laughably

weak flame bait. Surely you can do better.

[wyldwolf]

7. Actually, if you'll read my posts, I only do this to show how futile...

...it is to put out similar posts about Clark.

As I said yesterday, make sure your man is clean before you try to smear another.

It's ok to keep posting the same stories of Clark over and over like "I like these people" and "I would have been a republican?"

Deanies can dish it out but they can't take it.

[XanaDUer]

9. One of my major concerns about Dean

is that he is not liberal.

[clar]

12. and a laughably

weak excuse: "Actually, if you'll read my posts, I only do this to show how futile it is to put out similar posts about Clark." In other words, if other people are going to behave like jackasses, I will too.
Brilliant. As for dishing it out, this Dean supporter has defended Clark multiple times (doesn't mean I won't criticize him when I consider it warrented). In fact, I just wrote a positive post on the Clark on the Today Show thread. So much for your "Deanies can dish it out but they can't take it." Bssst. Try again.

[wyldwolf]

22. and a laughby weak reply...

As for dishing it out, this Dean supporter has defended Clark multiple times

When you are elected DU representative for the Dean camp, then your post will have some validity.

Bssst. Try again.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

75. Hey!!!!!

Buttercup is my favorite Powerpuff Girl...don't ruin it for me :D

[clar]

88. Sorry

You know where the buttercup name comes from, right? Princess Bride.
And Buttercup's true love is Wesley. So, that's my new name for rude Clark supporters.

[sfecap]

16. Sure we can take it....

We are pretty content knowing that Wolfowitz, Pearle, Feith, et all won't have positions in a Dean administration.

Unfortunately, according to Clark's own words, we can't be too sure about his administration...after all, those fine folks are his friends.

Clark "liberal", yeah, right...not too many liberals I know who consider the PNAC gang colleagues.

[CWebster]

13. And Clark? You better read this--

"NATO justified the bombing of the Belgrade TV station, saying it was a legitimate military target. 'We've struck at his TV stations and transmitters because they're as much a part of his military machine prolonging and promoting this conflict as his army and security forces,' U.S. General Wesley Clark explained - 'his,' of course, referring to Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic. It wasn't Milosevic, however, who was killed when the Belgrade studios were bombed, but rather 20 journalists, technicians and other civilians... The targeting of the studio was a war crime, perhaps the most indisputable of several war crimes committed by NATO in its war against Yugoslavia."

If you think the Guardian editors were being overly harsh in describing this as a "war crime," keep in mind that a panel of 16 judges from 11 countries who, at a people's tribunal meeting in New York before 500 witnesses, found U.S. and NATO leaders guilty of war crimes against Yugoslavia in the March 24 to June 10, 1999, "humanitarian" attack on that country.

As for Clark's reputation among the rank and file in our military establishment, the highly decorated and straight-talking Col. David Hackworth has written that Clark is "known by those who've served with him as the 'Ultimate Perfumed Prince.' (He) is far more comfortable in a drawing room discussing political theories than hunkering down in the trenches where bullets fly and soldiers die."

And we haven't even scratched the surface in discussing Clark's idealization of the Powell Doctrine, which led to NATO forces dropping tons of depleted uranium bombs on Kosovo, creating widespread civilian sickness as a result of contamination associated with DU.

So why is Wes running? Political analyst Lloyd Hart theorizes: "I believe Gen. Wesley Clark is Bill Clinton's wrecking ball to destroy the work of the progressives in the Democratic Party...so that Bush can have his second term and the DLC can put up their candidate in 2008, Sen. Hillary Clinton."

However this all turns out, the DLC better hope Condi Rice doesn't run in 2008. Imagine: a black female Republican conservative hawk gunning for the presidency - a nightmare for PC-conscious Democrats.


http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0923-08.htm

[Gin]

15. Dean is a Centrist....he is also conservtive on some issues and

liberal on some issues. He has my vote. These word games are a distraction.

[CWebster]

19. Depending on the scale

A Vermont centrist or a Southern Rep, er Democrat. ;-)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Souhtherners Can't Be Liberals,,,,,

I guess LBJ was a conservative.....


He was the most economically liberal president in history....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Two Small Points...

Howard Dean supported the operations in Kosovo and Bosnia.....

And Colornel Hackworth has rescinded and apologized for his remarks about Clark therefore I respectfully request in the name of intellectual honesty that you find another Americanmilitary source to malign Clark.....


Nothing but the truth......

Brian

[bloom]

30. I think it is one thing to support the Kosovo operation in theory...

In the way it is presented to the public like we're helping these people.

It is another thing entirely to be the NATO commander "defending" the killing of journalists.

[bloom]

28. I considered it a war crime when Bushco targeted Journalists in Iraq

I would have the say the same for this - if I don't want to be a hypocrite...


"NATO justified the bombing of the Belgrade TV station, saying it was a legitimate military target. 'We've struck at his TV stations and transmitters because they're as much a part of his military machine prolonging and promoting this conflict as his army and security forces,' U.S. General Wesley Clark explained - 'his,' of course, referring to Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic. It wasn't Milosevic, however, who was killed when the Belgrade studios were bombed, but rather 20 journalists, technicians and other civilians... The targeting of the studio was a war crime, perhaps the most indisputable of several war crimes committed by NATO in its war against Yugoslavia."

[mandyky]

17. I think another L word better describes Dean

Logical

He is not a liberal idealogue (and he does not particularly like idealogues from left or right). Dean has also said, if it is liberal to balance budgets then I am a liberal.

Most Dean supporters support him because they trust him, not because he is liberal.

[Cha]

43. That's the "L" word that I attach to Dean....Very well stated, mandy!

All these labels are just silly.. Dean cannot be labeled with the traditional political ones..he's too much of a Maverick. :kick:

[REP]

20. Yawn

Old news.

[wyldwolf]

23. As it the same Clark news day after day over and over...

..even when it is debunked, it is reposted over and over and over!

[StopTheMorans]

26. My advice: get used to it

Dean supporters have had to put up with it for months, Clark has only really been subjected to it for the past few weeks. When the shoe's on the other foot, it doesn't feel so good, does it;)?

[wyldwolf]

27. My advice? Be prepared to get it right back at you.

[clar]

31. Oooh,

Now you're really scaring us. Grow some more skin. Oh, and try growing up.

[wyldwolf]

35. I have plenty of skin which I why I don't go whining about "bashing..."

..like you Deanies do anytime someone dares to question him.

No, you grow up and realize no one is above reproach. Not even Dean.

[Forkboy]

61. sure you do

Sort of like the Clark thread on "I like these people."

[bushclipper]

66. Is that what you call whining?

bwahahaha! Look at the real whining going on in all the Clark and Dean threads.

I'm leaning Sharpton.

[Forkboy]

71. I dont call that whining

he's claiming he has thick skin yet that Clark thread apparently bothered him enough to start this one :shrug:

I think that both camps are acting like complete babies,with the exception of a few posters.

Sharpton is a-ok by me :)

[CMT]

24. Dean is a mainstream democrat

liberal on some issues and moderate on others. But he has also voted for liberal candidates for president such as George McGovern and Walter Mondale unlike another candidate in the race.

[mw]

32. Dean is a "flaming moderate". Reps just CALL him "liberal"

But being violently opposed and outspoken about Bush doesn't mean you're "liberal". Although Bushies would like to paint that picture.

Dean is moderate on many issues. But he has flaming passion to denounce the crimes of the Bush admin.

[blm]

58. He was running as a centrist till the antiwar crowds grew.

Then he claimed himself from the Democratic wing, called those to his left "Bushlite" and coopted Nader's 2000 heated rhetoric against the Dems. Voila...he became the darling of the left within weeks. But, he's still a centrist who despised liberals throughout his tenure as governor.

[gully]

62. 'despised liberals'....cute....

:eyes:

[DrGonzoLives]

73. You can prove, of course

that he "despised liberals" while governor, right? With wonderful things like quotes, context, and facts?

[w4rma]

76. blm can't. never has, never does.

blm, please stop the smears.

[blm]

83. "He seemed to take glee in attacking us"

How many times are you all willing to deny that he treated liberals badly? Why do you deny that he lashed out at Marian Wright Edelman and used the word "liberal" as a pejorative back then?


>>>>>>>
Dean kept his distance from his party's liberals during his governorship.

''He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements,'' said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats' liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

. . .

Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times.

. . .

Rivers blames Dean for helping a third political party to flourish in Vermont that many say siphons votes from Democrats. ''The Progressive Party gained some momentum during his years as governor because he was so conservative,'' Rivers said, although she said she still may support Dean for president.

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/139/region/Those_who_know_Dean_says_he_s_:.shtml

March 2002
http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/2794665.htm

Dean, a medical doctor, describes himself as "a bit unusual" for a Democrat. For one thing, "I'm very conservative about money," he said. Also, he pointed out, he has been endorsed by the National Rifle Association.

"I have trouble with the liberal wing of my own party," Dean said.

Other things working in his favor, he added, are: "I'm not from Washington. I'm very direct with people. I say what I think. People always know where I stand. ‘.‘.‘. I think people are ready for that."
>>>>>

Of course, that was BEFORE he claimed to be from the "Democratic wing of the Democratic party." (see growth of antiwar movement)

[gully]

104. First link isn't working BLM

and the second one is uhm, no smoking gun...

[blm]

114. It's been up scores of times here

Why pretend you never saw it?


Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal

By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) — Howard Dean may be many things, say those who worked with him over nearly a dozen years as Vermont governor, but an elitist liberal is hardly one of them.

He’s actually a lot more moderate — many would say conservative — than the reputation he’s built during his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination.

Many of the people who were his allies and adversaries in Montpelier over his 20-year political career have been quietly bemused by the liberal persona he’s built as he campaigns in Iowa and New Hampshire, especially through his outspoken opposition to the war in Iraq.

But when the leaders of the Democratic Leadership Council dismissed him last week as an elitist liberal in the mold of unsuccessful Democratic presidential nominees Sen. George McGovern in 1972 and Sen. Walter Mondale in 1984, some of Dean’s Vermont colleagues decided they’d had enough.

....

Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.
>>>>>

[gully]

123. Uhm, I didn't see it, but it falls under the so f'n what category.

;-)

[blm]

87. btw, why are you saying you never saw this?

It has been posted scores of times by many different posters since it came out months ago.

Why do you feel the need to smear me for what DEAN has said and done?

[gully]

125. It's simply uninteresting...

Dean's no Mondale. So what?

BTW, I worked for the Wellstone/Mondale campaign(s). I admire them both greatly. However, I will allow Dean to be an 'individual' *gasp*...

[blm]

131. "uninteresting" to you because it's TRUE, and

the Deanut Gallery ignores the uglier truths about Dean, even though they would rail against the same characteristics in Zell Miller.

[gully]

134. Bullshit. I don't make mountains out of molehills...

:puke:

[blm]

139. Progressive Democrats were treated badly for 11 YEARS

and you call that a "molehill"....sorry, but, I was always pissed at those Dems who acted like the liberals were bringing down the party. Dean was one of the worst offenders back when he was governor.

[gully]

141. Show me the quotes ... links once again I ask

You have a story that is about Walter Mondale and Paul Wellstone as your evidence.

[w4rma]

126. The verb "despised" is a *HUMONGOUS* exaggeration and you know it blm

It's not even close. In fact Dean has done the best job of any candidate in my short lifetime of courting liberals in this presidential campaign.

[blm]

130. "courting" is right. He followed the anger $$$$

and changed his tactic.

YOU can buy his 9 month conversion to "courting" liberals with fighting populist rhetoric. I don't buy it because I don't believe he has suddenly changed from being a lifelong committed centrist.

[gully]

135. bullshit. I heard Dean when he was at 2% in the polls, and he said the

SAME things he is saying today.

reminder *75% of the public was FOR the war after the Saddam ultimatum.

And, if being against the war was all it took, question the numbers of Dennis Kucinich.

Sorry your arguement is falling FLAT.

[blm]

138. Duh, gully....that's how he moved up from 2%.

I've been paying attention to Dean's campaign since 2001, and he had been carefully positioning himself to claim the center. Mild in his talk of Bush and emphasizing his centrist record.

The antiwar movement brought the polls down in the 2 months before the war. The ultimatum was 48 hrs. before the war started. YOUR argument is disingenuous.

[gully]

142. Yours is the disingenuous one...

Tell me what Deans position is on Gun Control and how that plays with the 'base' BLM.

[MadHound]

37. And this is suprising how?

Dean is very much a DLC moderate in the mold of Clinton. Where people got the idea he was some sort of liberal I don't know. I do know that with his stance on issues I can't vote for the man. Of course there aren't many in this field that I'd feel good voting for, mainly Kucinich or maybe Sharpton.

[DrGonzoLives]

41. Link?

What was said before that? After that? What's the context?

Oh, wait, information like that might make your post look like the garbage that we know it is. Never mind.

[wyldwolf]

45. Spin?

Yep! Direct quote by him and you try to spin it away.

[DrGonzoLives]

51. Just as I thought

No contextual information whatsoever. Interesting.

How exactly am I spinning anything? I requested a link. That's spinning to the Anyone-But-Dean-Including-Bush crowd now?

[elcondor]

52. Link!

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/02/20/dean/index_np.html

You have to join to read the entire article--but you can read the "context" for yourself and make up your mind about it.

[DrGonzoLives]

53. Out of a few paragraphs?

I see a story about polls and a crack about healthcare. Not a whole hell of a lot there. Think you could post the passage where Dean makes his comment?

See, unlike you knee-jerk Anyone-But-Dean-Including-Bush people, I actually want all the information, not just whatever half-truths and one-liners you people usually post.

[bushclipper]

65. I may be mistaken, but it only takes one line to say what he said...

[wyldwolf]

67. No, he thinks we're lying by saying Salon.com published it...

[DrGonzoLives]

72. Oh, so now you're a mind reader

Jesus Christ, I just wanted to see the entire passage of that interview to see what the context was. I guess requesting more information from Clark supporters is taken as an insult. I'll keep that in mind.

[elcondor]

77. Why should I have to?

You asked for a link, I posted it. Read it for yourself and make up your mind about the context. I shouldn't have to pay money to post a passage you can read very well by yourself. And it says clearly on the bottom of the page that you have to JOIN to read the ENTIRE article . . . I was simply being polite by doing you a favor and taking two seconds to google for a link.

And I would appreciate you not making a judgement about me that simply because I am a Clark supporter I must be a knee-jerk kind of gal. I don't post one-liners and I try to stay out of arguments with people about their candidates. To each his own I say . . .

[spooky3]

46. I think Dean's statement is accurate.

I don't think he's a liberal either; his positions seem moderate in most ways conservative on some, and liberal in a few, at least the way those words were used in the pre-neocon days. I don't think his reaction has anything to do with whether "liberal" is a good or a bad word.

[gully]

54. hmmmm, I wonder if Howard Dean voted for Reagan?

:shrug:

[DrGonzoLives]

55. Shhhhh!!!!!!!

That's not fair! You're not allowed to bring that up!

[renie408]

56. It doesn't matter anyway

It doesn't matter who you voted for in the past or if you raised funds for the Republicans or anything like that. It is what you say NOW that counts.

Even if it contradicts stuff you said less than a year ago.

[gully]

57. Oops, I forgot labels are far more important then voting records...

:puke:

[WilliamPitt]

68. WANNA KNOW WHY THEY CALL DEAN A 'LIBERAL'?

Because he fucking speaks up, roars "I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK" and raises his voice in anger. He confronts the bullshit better than any candidate has to date. Ergo, he has to be some fire-eyed liberal agitator fellow traveler.

Sad commentary on modern politics in America.

[noiretextatique]

80. excellent observation

i agree. the term "liberal," so debased and maligned by the rw is being use to MARGINALIZE dean. what's sad is that it works so well, even with democrats. dean is not a liberal, and as far as i know, he never claimed to be. and neither is clark...nor does he claim to be in the exchange with maher you cite. what he said is "america is a liberal democracy," not "i am a liberal." a dishonest thread, imho.

[Dr Fate]

79. He means the MEDIA definition of Liberal...

...and when DEMS unite and WIN- we will take that word BACK.

I know exactly why Dean said this- he is using strategy-

No DEM bashing from me- I think Dean is great...

[janekat]

82. "He expresses mistrust of the left and right"...

http://www.hermes-press.com/kerry_yes.htm

As Vermont governor, Howard Dean was known as a buttoned-down and bottom-line chief executive. He fought higher taxes, cut programs over the cries of fellow Democrats and often sided with business when the choice was jobs versus the environment.

Which explains why many people back home scarcely recognize Howard Dean the presidential candidate, who has stirred liberals across the country with his blunt talk and passionate antiwar speeches.

.... "The Howard Dean I see running for president is a lot different than the Howard Dean who ... governed Vermont. He was a moderate."

Indeed, as he seeks the White House, Dean makes no secret of his more conservative side....

He touts his friendly relations with the National Rifle Assn., saying gun control is an issue best left to each state. He expresses mistrust of the left and right, describing himself as a centrist. "I have always been very skeptical of ideologues," he said.

-snip-

[stickdog]

85. Clark: "I voted for Nixon and Reagan."

Dean: "I worked grassroots for Carter."

So who's zooming who?

[JohnKleeb]

86. Ive heard this before

There was a quote when he was saying that he wasnt a pacifist which is fine I dont consider myself one honestly but IIRC he told the "peace people" not to fall in love with him or something like that. No comment I aint bashing just recalling.

[kwolf68]

89. I liked Kerry's response

When called a Liberal, Kerry said, if being for xxx and being for xxxx is Liberal, then call me what you want.

Another reason Dean isn't an option in Nov. of 2004.

[JohnKleeb]

91. I'll take Kucinich but Kerry is my second choice

[gully]

93. Dup...

oops

[stickdog]

118. I hate COMPLETELY uninformed opinions.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/dean.lkl/

Dean says Democrats moving 'too far to the right'
Former Vermont governor says he can take on Bush

Tuesday, August 5, 2003 Posted: 4:10 PM EDT (2010 GMT)

LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- Rejecting criticism from some of his Democratic brethren that he is too liberal to be elected president, former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean says that the real problem is that "the Republican Party and even my own party has simply moved too far to the right."

Dean, a candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination, spoke Monday on CNN's Larry King Live from Burlington, Vermont.

"I am in the center," he said. "I balanced budgets. The president hasn't done so. I believe that states have the right to make their own gun laws, after enforcing the federal laws vigorously. There's nothing that's not centrist about me."

Dean, who was Vermont's lieutenant governor in 1991 when Gov. Richard Snelling died, balanced the state's budget for 11 consecutive years -- although Vermont is the only state in the union that does not require a balanced budget.

"They all say, 'He's so liberal,'" Dean said. "Well, if liberal is balancing budgets, please do call me a liberal. ... If you want jobs and investment in the country, you're going to have to have a Democrat because the Republicans simply can't handle money."

[haymaker]

90. So, which did he say? "I'm not a liberal" or

"I don't mind being characterized as a liberal, I just don't happen to think that it is true".

And maybe a link? Anyone can make shit up and put a date and source on it. I am not implying that is what you are doing, just saying it. It is awfully old.

One more thing, mindnumbingly dumb post. Old, unsubstantiated, and obvious. Not to mention misleading.

Same bullshit, very next day.

[gully]

95. No not DETAILS, please...

:scared: ;)

[gully]

97. Dean... If being a liberal is ...

"Well, if being a liberal is balancing the budget that's fine with me. And I'll bet it's fine with most Americans. If being a liberal is joining Canada and Britain and France and Germany and Japan and Italy and Israel in having universal health insurance for all of its citizens, then you may call me what you want."~Howard Dean

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/04/democrats.dean.ap/

[blm]

101. What did he say BEFORE the antiwar crowds grew?

.

[haymaker]

102. What did you say before the Dean crowds grew?

:cry:

[blm]

115. That he was a centrist...and many here whined I was smearing him

for calling him a cemtrist. I've been on his case since the end of January when he called other candidates way to his left "Bushlite"...I call him a compromising centrist, because THAT is exactly how he governed. That was "smearing" him back then, because no one wanted to know about it. Then he called himself a centrist, and some STILL whine that I'm smearing him whenever I point to it.

[gully]

105. war crowds grew?

Where've you been?

75% of Americans were in favor of the Iraq war on the day we went in, and DEAN was still AGAINST it.

[JohnKleeb]

108. I think she refered to the world in general

Were some big protests in the nation and some really big ones overseas.

[gully]

111. it was implied that Dean was 'pandering' to the vote

IMHO..

[JohnKleeb]

113. I dunno really

trying to stay netural really am.

[blm]

117. If he was SINCERE he would have stood with Kucinich

at the antiwar rallies. Dean DID pander while physically keeping his distance from the antiwar protests.

[JohnKleeb]

119. that puzzles me

I dont care really but I for one think Kucinich made perhaps one of the best if not the best stance against the war. I like how he talks about the war being wrong because of the human side of it and that it was morally wrong as well as illegal. Its great that DK did speak at a war rally I really give him props for that I really do, he was a congressman as he still is during this, I really would had liked it if Dean had done the same. I of course wont hold this against him if hes the nominee but I think Kucinich and Sharpton perhaps made the best stands, I think those two were the only ones who spoke at rallies. I saw Al but not Dennis because he spoke in NYC. I opposed this war because it was illegal, wrong, and I thought of the human effects like DK.

[stickdog]

120. He was against the Vietnam War as well. But he said he preferred

community service and letters to his representatives and local newspapers to protest marches.

This little nugget is from his two black activist roommmates at Yale.

So, are you going to apologize for questioning the sincerity of his opposition to the Iraq War -- on CNN while Saddam's statute was being pulled down, BTW -- or are you just going to run off and find some other spin to bash him with?

[blm]

122. No. Are you going to try to tell me that

Dean and his campaign didn't discuss whether it would be good for him or not to speak at antiwar rallies? And that they came up with the answer: NO.

[gully]

128. I think he was too damn busy. And, he stated publically that were he

invited, he'd have shown up.

*Snore*

[gully]

127. He said he wasn't invited to any protests. And, he was campaigning.

More straws to grasp at huh? Pathetic attempt.

Pandering is switching your anti choice vote to a pro choice one before election time.

[blm]

116. Tell it to Ted Rall.

Dean didn't tack left till AFTER the antiwar crowds grew.

[gully]

129. Bullshit. Grew to what. As I said 75% of Amerikuns were fer the war!

*when Bush gave Saddam the big ultimatum America 'rallied' behind the war.*

You use two conflicting arguments. You say Dean pandered to the anti-war crowd, and then you say he refused to speak at any anti-war rally's.

Make up yer mind already!

[blm]

132. The Democratic base (primary voters) were against the war.

And the numbers for war were much lower right before the war started. They started going down at the beginning of the year and only went back up AFTER the war started.

[gully]

136. They went up BEFORE the war started and...

Deans position did not change (period). It has remained consistant.

Thus, your wrong. And, when he was questioned about his position, (in spite of the growing support for war) he continued to speak out courageously.

[blm]

140. HAHAH...just 48 hrs, before the war started

when the ultimatum was given. Before that the numbers were tumbling.

Plus, the PRIMARY voters were mostly against the war.

[gully]

143. links to polls please...

thanks!

I don't doubt that primary voters were against the war, but I've not seen a shift in Deans position as I have John Kerry's.

As I said, how do Democratic primary voters feel about Gun control? Nafta?

I have one hear that shows Dean wasn't doing well among Democratic primary voters, and he looked to independents.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/02/05/national0436EST0472.DTL

Given the fact that slightly more then half of Americans supported the war before the ultimatum and 75 percent after, I'd say your therory is WRONG.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/07/iraq.poll/

[bitchkitty]

106. Lame. Pathetic.

You can't come up with anything better than this?

[leesa]

133. Of course he's not a liberal. He's a centrist.

The RW controlled media tells you he is leftist. This allows us to be more accepting of RW folks like Clark.

[neebob]

137. Oh, good

Let's get sucked into dumbass word games and validate the assumption that being liberal is bad. My primary vote goes to the candidate who spends the least amount of time trying to obscure his or her true convictions. Oh, right, we're not having a primary in Colorado. So, uh, Anyone but Bush.