Should we respect islam if it does not respect women?

[sweetheart]

Do you think islamic culture discriminates against women? Do you
think this is institutional?

From the koran:

"Men are the protectors (Qawamoon) of women, because God has given
preference to some over others. And because men spend of their property
on women. So good women are obedient, guarding even unnoticed that what
Allah (God) has asked them to guard. As for those from whom you fear
rebellion in this (i.e. guarding their chastity in your absence),
i) talk to them, ii) leave them alone in their beds, iii) strike them.
If they then obey you, look not for any way against them..
(Koran 4:34)."

[LightningFlash]

1. I think its not a good thing in any extreme sense.

Christian Orthodoxy, Islamic Extremism, none of it is good for anything. Extremist agendas need to be outlawed entirely. They are not good for anything, and only push, and spurn holocausts.

Moderation in religion is good on all sides, and should be pushed and required for religious practices regardless of faith.

[BrendaStarr]

110. The Bible says much of the same thing as the Koran regarding men and women

Oh Oh watch out fundies if we decide that we can attack a people because of what their religious book says.

Oh wait it also would apply to regular Christians according to the original poster.

It doesn't matter who you are according to him,her if your holy book offends us it means we can attack you.

This isn't me, it's what the orignal post in this string is hinting at (in regards to Muslims, but I'm sure he or she didn't think too much about it. Probably just got the spiel from a talking points email.)

[LightningFlash]

125. Maybe they just got done watching the history channel....n/t

It's turned into a totally right-wing insane backwards view of religion.

[OKDem08]

2. The Koran institutionalizes sexism

and I have no respect for it...read the 'princess sultana' series and you will get a glimpse into another reality altogether

[slutticus]

4. Let's not forget the Southern Baptists.

We've got sexist bullshit much closer to home that we have to worry about.

[tavalon]

13. Indeed

that is the lunatic asylum I escaped from at age 20. Whack jobs.

[aquart]

15. So does the Bible!

And the men who picked the books deliberately left out ones that gave women too much sway.

However, a wife's role is detailed at the end of Proverbs, and it gives women primacy in many trades and professions. Fundamentalists probably only read the part about her never sleeping.

[sweetheart]

37. That said, sharia is a problem

If you've chanced to spend time in a muslim culture, it is deeply
disconcerting to see the status of women. THe bible does not say it
is the law of the land, as much as the theocrats are in power, there
is still a long long distance to cover... and perhaps they shall in
their zeal... but on the ground, i would recommend to any educated
woman to get out of an islamic country so that she can have freedom
and liberty.

Then wow! what is the point of institutionally supporting societies
that keep 50% of their population enslaved based on mythical texts
that can't be flushed.

[BrendaStarr]

112. Look at the status of women in the extreme right wing church!

Don't be a hypocrite!

[kitkatrose]

50. You said:

And the men who picked the books deliberately left out ones that gave women too much sway.

Which ones are these? I'm genuinely curious as I've never heard of this before. I know there were lots of things left out of the bible, but not much about what was in them. Thanks. :)

[Karenina]

55. Girl stuff!

:evilgrin:

[XemaSab]

90. Some of the Gnostic gospels

were written by women.

The Gnostics had a whole different take on many things, the status of women and the celibacy of Jesus included.

[leesa]

66. So does the bible. They were written by clerics and such who were from

paternalistic societies.

[funflower]

75. Welcome to DU, OKDem!

:hi:

[Skidmore]

3. Says something similar in the Bible too. Do we respect the Bible or not?

or do we perhaps realize that the books were written in the distant past and start applying the spirit of the teachings of Christ and Mohammed to a modern society? It seems to me that this would be a more productive path.

[sweetheart]

5. If a literal interpretation is against the law...

and our modern age, then i think our society should make that clear.
As much as we put "R", "X" and "PG" on films, then similarly,
these old texts are dangerous to the immature and have been
terribly abused.

Just it seems that moderate christianity and islam are not what is on
the rise, rather literalism.

Perhaps such religions should have a "misogyny warning" like on
smoking packets... can be dangerous to your health.

[rodeodance]

8. The Catholic Church makes women second class citizens but we have

secular laws that provide legal-politcal rights (slowly over the last 200 years--not yet catch up economically to males)that have grown out of our constitution-that have mitigated the Bible. Here lies the problem with the Koran--when it becomes/IS the legal law of the land.

[sweetheart]

38. That law of the land problem

Is a huge deal. So by "tolerance", what we get is a call to end
democracy for a system of misogynist laws. In that case, there could be some
wisdom to reasoned-intolerance.

[smirkymonkey]

25. I think that is the main issue

Whether religious texts are codified into secular law. Personally, I think most religious fundamentalists are clinically insane, but if they start forcing their "laws" on the state, that's when I draw the line.

Unfortunately, this is a reality in a number of Muslim countries.

[smirkymonkey]

24. I don't respect the Bible either

or any religious texts, written by men, claiming that women are inferior or worse.

[Arugula Latte]

51. Same here. I'm an equal opportunity dis-respecter.

Religion in general -- feh!

[annabanana]

116. Thank you Skidmore..

Literalism is counterproductive in today's interconnected world. The spirit of the teachings in all the world's great religions provide a blueprint for a more just and peaceful existence.

[Frederik]

6. You can find similar quotes in the Bible

[nonconformist]

7. I respect a person's right to practice the religion they choose

I don't have to agree with it. As long as they are practicing it quietly and it's not affecting me or U.S. laws/policy, it's none of my concern.

You will also find that the Bible degrades women. They're to be submissive to their husbands and obey them, they should be stoned to death if they're not a virgin on their wedding day, they should marry their rapist if he wants them, and on and on and on. They're generally regarded as inferior, unclean property.

[LightningFlash]

9. That could explain why Tom DeLay's on his 17th relationship....

......And his 43rd mistress!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sorry, that statement was priceless. :yourock:

[Oversea Visitor]

10. Yes it does

But Islam can evolve.
How ever Chimp just push it back like 50 years

[LondonAmerican]

11. No, we shouldn't

Also, the fact that Islam calls for gay men and lesbians to be literally slaughtered is another reason not to respect it.

[JNelson6563]

20. The bible condones genocide

and stoning your rebellious childrec to death. Hard to respect that.

Julie

[LondonAmerican]

27. You are right about the bible

but what's that got to do with whether we should respect people who want to slaughter gays and lesbians?

[JNelson6563]

35. Slaughtering over differences

is the common thread here. Different god? Kill them. They're on land you want? Kill them. Different sexual orientation, wipe them out. On it goes. It all looks the same to me. Primative and base.

If you think one is less wretched than the other that's your thing.

Julie

[tavalon]

12. Do you think fundamentalist Christianity discriminates against women?

Do you think it's institutional? Damn tootin' it is!

Fundamentalism of any ilk is dangerous to all living things. That said, there are plenty of Muslims and Christians who aren't fundamentalists.

[aquart]

14. They think they respect women more than we do.

And they believe THEIR women have more self respect than ours.

Guess which nations are highest in internet porn consumption???

[Egalitariat]

109. The ones where it won't get you the death penalty?*****

Did I get it right?

[Bluebear]

16. Sounds like the Old Testament to me. n/t

[no_hypocrisy]

17. The Wahabi sect resembles your description. Sufi (Islam) doesn't.

As a matter of fact, Sufi treats women as partners and participants in the faith in all aspects. Since Sufiism is the mystical division of Islam (not be equated with Kaballah and Judaism), Sufis are not necessarily embraced, let alone recognized by the body Islam.

Women are treated according to the directives of the relative mullahs and emirs and their opinions of women. The Koran demands a general respect and honor for them.

[Vladimir]

21. Indeed, one of the most infuriating things

about the perception of Islam is that it is somehow monolithic (something which no-one would, of course, say about Christianity). Picking out a passage from the Quran and slating the whole religion with it is ridiculous methodologically, because it ignores the social context within which the religion exists. It also serves to equate all Muslims (insofar as their religious practice is concerned), something which is patently false.

[Karenina]

26. Thanx, Volodya

The original post severely offended my sensibilities. It is an example of American "exceptionalism" which so often finds expression in "we're good THEY'RE bad musings...

[Vladimir]

31. Heh, you are welcome

I would say the problem is that just about any ideology can be used for both good and ill, the real questions are who is using it, and to what purposes. And it seems to me that critiques of Islamic societies by those in the West all too often focus on a critique of the religion, when the crucial problem in these societies is the reactionary ruling class, often supported and encouraged by our own governments. A study of the differences between Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia, both majority Muslim countries, is quite revealing in this matter.

Of course that does not mean that progressives here should be in favour of sexist laws (wherever they exist), but opposition to them should be conducted in a spirit of solidarity with progressive movements in those countries, and be very careful not to align itself with our own countries colonial and imperialist objectives.

[cally]

47. Well said, but more muslims need to speak out

about some are using the Koran to subjugate women. The sharia laws are not from the Koran, I believe, but too many Imans and now countries are promoting these laws as the true Muslim path. Without more voices saying no, then it appears that all Muslims support the sharia laws.

[Karenina]

68. We all, unless extraordinarly "lucky"

are consigned to "working within the system." YOU are not privy to the "resistance" and have no point of reference for the dynamics. I do get a bit "edgy" with Ami pronouncements about Arab culture and DO WISH you would focus more attention on your OWN visions of "democracy" in your OWN country, ESPECIALLY since you ain't got it no mo'. :shrug:

Standing up for your mythological "values" would do a WORLD of GOOD.

[cally]

82. OK, so you saying that I can't have an opinion

because any opposition is outside my ability to see or understand since I see it through my cultural bias. I call bullshit. We ALL must criticize others for not standing up for human rights. I find it hypocritical and patronizing that you criticize US and yet I can't criticize arab culture. Explain why that makes sense to you.

[Karenina]

89. Sorry, Cally

It would seem you have misinterpreted my comment. There are MANY commentaries on Sharia from women.

http://www.qantara.de/webcom/show_article.php/_c-478/_nr-286/i.html

"We ALL must criticize others for not standing up for human rights."

For my part, living amongst Muslims from North Africa, the Middle East and Asia, I'd rather make an effort to UNDERSTAND their dynamics rather than criticize. THAT process involves gaining access to the "inner workings" and requires that I SHUT UP, OBSERVE and LISTEN carefully, often through several languages. It requires that I step outside the box of my American indoctrination. It is quite clear to me that U.S. *MIC meddling has hindered progress.

The reason I may seem a bit "edgy" towards Amis is the default template of "WE ARE SUPERIOR." There is also a tendency to finger point when your
own transgressions are even worse. This tendency has earned you nothing but CONTEMPT from your peers around the world. But who the hell CARES what "they" think anyhoo...

[cally]

94. I would like to more about what you have learned

about the culture. I have never implied, ever, that I'm not interested in other cultures or what others think and feel. Thanks for the apology. On edit: I was a little edgy, also. Sorry

[Karenina]

98. Callykins

What I know from growing up black in white America, is folks is folks. My 'hood as a child in the 50's was multi-culti, EVERYBODY'S dad was a "shrink." We ALL had that international translator when screamed at. ;-)

Fast-forward 40 years, I find myself APOLOGIZING to folks in my 'hood whose families have been DEVASTATED by American "foreign policy." NO, they do NOT BLAME ME personally. YES, I get to eat some rockin' food and discuss the issues at length.

What I've learned is how to leave my American "exceptionalism" and EGO at the door and a willingness to SHUT UP AND LISTEN. I've learned a lot.

[Bill McBlueState]

63. how is that "exceptionalism"?

The original post says nothing about Americans or Christianity. It simply says that Islam, as portrayed in its own sacred text, is misogynistic.

Whether that's true of Christianity really has no bearing on the point the original poster is making.

For the record, I think both Islam and Christianity are misogynistic, unless you choose to ignore large chunks of each religion's sacred text.

[Karenina]

104. So what's the point?

Every patriarchal religion embodies this shit.

[smirkymonkey]

128. Thank you!

For reminding us to stay on topic.

Some people can take any post and twist it to suit thier own agenda. Most of them are pretty predictable.

[sweetheart]

64. Perhaps islamic culture is better

It is difficult indeed to discuss without offending someone, but the
fact is that womens rights suck in islamic countries, and i doubt that
you yourself would want to move to saudi arabia and lose your civil
rights.

I merely framed a starting point for a chat, not a definitive position,
which is why it is postulated as questions? My own experience of
islamic culture is limited to Egypt and Kashmir... and the treatment
of women was degrading.

You're right that i did not include sectarian considerations, and
lumped the whole thing in as islam... as the koran is common across
the lot... and is it wrong to ask?

[Clark2008]

33. I was going to point that out if you hadn't

Most modern Muslims don't have four wives, don't treat their wives like property and don't beat them; however, the regimes in which they live, particularly Saudi Arabia, do.

Jordan, (the former) Iraq (yes, under Saddam), Baharain and a handful of smaller Muslim nations treat women with respect under the law - Sufi or not. Ironic that we've gone after Iraq and not Saudi, isn't it?

[jody]

18. "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ

is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body." Eph 5:23

Many religions view husbands as the protector of the wife/family. The wife is to be obedient to the husband and the one who rears children until some age. Those roles are similar to roles among lower animals such as lions, humans are just doing what comes naturally.

[Coexist]

40. you took the words out of my mouth

Fundies in any religion seem to use ancient text to subjugate women. Societies that do that should not get our support, not religions.

[cally]

44. Some recent research indicates

the common belief that male lions dominate is probably wrong. The females join together and kick out the male if they don't like this male. The male serves at their discretion.

[funflower]

79. One has to view these texts in historical context. This verse may have

been quite "feminist" by the standards of the writer or recipients of the letter to the Ephesians. "Protector" may actually have been an improvement on the way in which many men treated their wives in the particular society to which this writing was addressed.

The problem arises when readers of the Koran or the Bible believe we should enforce centuries-old social constructs. Male dominance was the "air" within which early Christianity and Islam were operating. Ancient secular writings also tend to presume that males are the dominant sex. An intelligent modern reader should not take this to be the predominant message of either of these religions. Unfortunately, fundamentalists within almost every "old" religion are more interested in enforcing ancient social roles than in gleaning the true wisdom that is to be found within their respective religious writings.

[eallen]

19. I see no reason at all to respect Islam.

People should be free to practice it, just as they should be free to be Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientologists. But rational folks should also be free, to laugh at all these religions.

:hippie:

[KittyWampus]

22. Islam Does Respect Women, It's The Interpreters/Mullahs Who Don't.

Anyhow, the Koran was written in a far different time and place.

It's understanding and proponents do need to evolve as another poster mentioned.

[eallen]

28. "It's not the religion. It's all those people who practice it."

I'm always tickled by those who think that there is some pure form of religion behind what its practitioners believe and do. They draw some circle around a mythical and pure birth, and mark the corruption as starting just outside that. Sunni believe Mohammed and the first four Caliphs were pure, but that problems began soon thereafter. Shi'ites push further back, believing Ali bin Abi should have succeeded Mohammed, rather than Abu Bakr. Different groups of Mormons will argue about the prophets who followed Joseph Smith.

This defensive strategy becomes absurd when people try to read modern sensibilities into ancient religions. Until the Englightenment, the idea that women should be viewed as equal to men, in real social and political terms, here on earth, was such an outrageous thought that it is difficult to find it voiced. Those who try to turn Mohammed or Jesus into an early version of Mary Shelley are committing an anachronism every bit as ridiculous as giving them cell phones.

Feminism is a modern idea.

Liberal democracy is a modern idea.

We all should hope that ancient religions like Christianity and Islam should adapt to these modern ideas. But when their adherents try to claim that these modern ideas were already part of these ancient religions, that deserves just a belly laugh and historical correction.

[smirkymonkey]

52. Some of us think all religion is bullshit, therefore what was

said in ancient religious texts has absolutely no bearing on our reality.

The problem is misogyny here and now, whether it's in a Muslim country or here. It's amazing what people will say and do to justify it.

[KlatooBNikto]

23. I am not even concerned at this moment about how Islam regards Men-Women

relationships within an Islamic society. I am more concerned about the violence, tortures, abuse and murders committed by some rich Islamic people in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the Emirates against young women from Asian countries ( India, Indonesia, Cambodia, Phillippines, Thailand, Sri Lanka etc) as indentured labor to work in their households.That is a stain of long duration that has not been addressed by these societies in any meaningful way.

[jim3775]

29. "Do not tolerate intolerance"

It's something Bill Maher said that I have always agreed with. It doesn’t mean we shouldn't support those who are working to reform and modernize Islam. Google "Islamic feminism" and see for yourself.

[undergroundpanther]

30. I don't respect any religion

That disrespects human beings.
No religion is owed respect if it disrespects.If the followers disrespect people religion is no excuse for disrespecting others. It's not my fault they are excusing bigotry because of religion.A bully is a bully a bigot is a bigot and neither have ANY excuses for being such assholes.
No religion that disrespects or makes certain people scapegoats or second class citizens IMHO deserves any sacred cow "privilege" or exemptions from criticism if the sects excuse bullying in their ranks.

Religions aren't all that great if they cannot motivate saner believers to stop their true believers from harming others. A well thought out belief system with human rights front and center,rather than obedience could at least change that..But obedience based religions cannot and Will not change this problem.
The fact the religion does not throw away this push for absolute obedience to a rule book that has shown it saves nobody from dark ages,human rights abuses,and bullies..shows me that particular religion is a FAILURE and it could be toxic to society.

[gulliver]

32. Respect other people, including Muslims.

That doesn't mean you have to like them or their religion. It's not generally a good idea to deny people respect simply because they don't think and act exactly like you want them to. That won't magically change them. All it does is cause trouble.

[brooklynite]

34. You need to distinguish between the religion and the religious text...

...as well as the local culture of the religious adherants.

Every ancient religious text has elements of intolerance. The question is whether the religious practice today adheres to those points. We tend to fall into the same stereotyping behavior our friends at FR do, i.e. Islam = Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Don't forget that Islam also encompasses Turkey (modern western democracy), Morocco (less democratic but a fairly open modern society) and Malaysia.

Also keep in mind that some practices are cultural rather than religious. Female circumcisim. for example, has nothing to do with Islam; it's a cultural peculiarity of parts of Africa.

[ck4829]

36. Not every Muslim is the same

This is the same with every religion. Just because a religious text says something that should be viewed with disapproval does not mean that every adherent of that religion will still do that.

I am proud to call the woman in my life my Goddess. I would destroy myself before I even considered to hurt her. I want her to be in charge of the relationship and I am the one who obeys her.

I am a Muslim BTW.

[sweetheart]

39. What are your thoughts about sharia?

As a muslim, you are better in a position to explain. But it seems that,
unlike some religions like buddhism that does not have a secular
system of laws, islam has a system that has been adopted at great cost
to human rights in their societies.

[Karenina]

42. Errraaa...

So does Christianity. And a longer history of oppression to (jack)boot.

[ck4829]

48. Sharia is bad

We don't need it.

When Islam was founded, it was more than a religion, it was like a religion-plus basically.

Islam needs a reformation to make sure the 'religious right' of Islam don't abuse it.

Getting rid of Sharia would be an excellent step in reformation.

[Karenina]

59. This "reformation"

is EXACTLY the progress that has been BLOCKED by American *corporate interests for the last half century. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, perhaps the OP can explain to YOU the effects of Corinthians...

[Coexist]

41. Religions don't suppress people, People suppress people

How's that?! Or maybe

"Ancient texts don't suppress people, Peope suppress people"

[Deja Q]

78. BINGO!!!

Right on the nail.

:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:
:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:
:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:
:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:
:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[Coexist]

117. thanks..

I like borrowing right wing phrases.

[Name removed]

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[smirkymonkey]

56. Hear, hear

It's amazing to see people who generally hop on the bandwagon when it comes to condemning Christianity, suddenly rush to defend Islam because our insane government has imperialistic designs on many of the nations where it is practiced.

As far as I'm concerned, Bush sucks, imperialism sucks, war sucks, religion sucks and misogyny sucks.

[Name removed]

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[Codeine]

74. I aim to please! n/t

[Bill McBlueState]

131. eh, guess you didn't please everyone.

:(

[Triana]

45. NO.

I respect NO institution or 'religion' that does not respect women and most of them don't. I'm FORCED by society to tolerate some of this crap, but that doesn't mean I have any respect for it. RESPECT is a two-way street.

[mitchum]

46. I respect no religion, but I respect anyone's right to believe whatever...

nonsense they want to swallow (just as I respect a child's right to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny) But I also have the right to mock their gullibility,.

[hel]

49. Most definitely not.

As a woman living in a -more or less- Muslim society I have no tolerance for Qurans view on women and people who condone it or who want us to overlook it in the name of respect for culture. That doesn't mean I have much respect for any other religion, but the rise of Sharia Law is the worst thing that can happen to women in a society. The Muslim culture does still reflect Quran's fourteen centuries old world view, and since any attempt to interpret the book in a different way or change it is one of the biggest sins in Islam, it is not bound to change in lands where it rules without any constraint from society.

On the other hand, it's easy not to respect Islam personally, but what good will it do and where eventually will it lead? Would just refusing Islam bring any change in a fanatical society or help women and others suffering under Sharia Law in any way? Are we willing to directly wage or support wars on religion(s)?

[Terran1212]

53. You meet with muslims and spend time with them and decide

Respect what you think deserves respect.

[UdoKier]

57. I spent years working with a bunch of Iranian guys.

It really turned me against Islamic culture in general.

They were nice (to me) and affable, intelligent, but when we got to talking, they had the most despicable views about women. They felt that they had the right to beat their wives, and to cheat on them, but that if their wives cheated, they deserved no less than death. They were completely serious. THeir values were totally in sync with the depiction in "Not Without My Daughter".

[Vladimir]

73. And I've spent years studying with

all sorts of people: American, British, French, German, Serb, Croat, Bosnian, Austrian, Russian, Swedish, Pakistani, Indian, Christian, atheist, Muslim, Jewish, working-class, middle-class, filthy-rich, dirt-poor, you name it. And guess what? Not one of these groups had a monopoly on bigotry or sexism.

My country got torn up, and thousands got slaughtered, because some bigoted bastards wanted to pretend that all Muslims, Serbs, Croats, Kosovars etc. are the same. Perhaps you've heard of Srebrenica? Perhaps you've heard of the cleansing of Krajina? Maybe Vukovar rings a bell? So forgive me if I have short shrift for generalisations and attempts to portary a diverse group of peoples as some monolithic block.

[sweetheart]

81. Excellent!!!

So, if you were a woman and you had a choice to be born in to any
one of those countries, which one(s) would you choose that no matter
what class you were born in to, or skin colour that you have civil
rights?

It is a complex topic to discuss, as there IS institutional misogyny
involved, and to point to it, we need to use profiling... and its
dangerous side effects of mislabelling etc.. etc.. that you well
point out.

And yet, to simply kill the concern, because all cultures are bigoted
is wrong. There ARE definite advantages in womens equality between
some of these states, and they ARE related to the underlying cultural
beliefs. I did not intend to declare a "monolithic block" as you
say, so how would you put it?

[Vladimir]

84. See, I don't know if I agree

that the "advantages in women's equality" are "related to the underlying cultural beliefs". Otherwise, as I point out above, why does Bangladesh have a female PM (and no, it isn't a paradise for women - but its not some neaderthal cave either)? In Yugoslavia, there was probably much more sexism in the Serb, Croat and Montenegrin sections of the community than amongst Bosnian Muslims. If we look at the Muslim immigrant communities, for example in the UK, they are hardly more sexist than your average beer-gut-Cross-of-St.George-footie fan.

I think that where sexism exists, it exists entirely because it serves the interests of the ruling class of that particular country for it to exist, irrespective of culture. And all too often, its used to give a section of the community (men) a semblance of power to hide the poverty and exploitation that they are mired in. Of course an ideology is always used to enforce the sexism, but that does not mean that the ideology or culture is the cause of the sexism.

Its not my aim to apologise for anyone's biogtry, nor to claim that women in Saudi Arabia have it good. But neither do I think its productive to talk about cultures. We should be talking, if you forgive my predictability, about class.

[sweetheart]

86. economic class?

The more economic rights that women have, the more the other areas of
social equality are ironed out. This is well known. So are you saying
that its an issue of economic class, or social class?

So perhaps in a culture where the social rights were never extended to
women to start with, we wind up with a zero-starter problem... slavery.
Fine, so islam is excused. We should treat it as pure slavery and
take on any repressor's reasons as a load of bollocks, be they the
holy book or the status quo.

[Vladimir]

88. Economic class

What I am essentially saying is this: take away the religion, but leave the underlying economic exploitation of the working class, and you will not necessarily fix the sexism. There will have to be another ideology which enables the ruling class to rule, and it will of necessity replace the sexism with some discrimination and hatered towards another group - hardly a gain. Take away the economic exploitation, however, and the social and cultural problems will tend to fix themselves (although, as we can see from our own countries, they still remain far from fixed).

[Hatalles]

100. Thank you, Vlad.

[UdoKier]

115. You're right.

I'm just relating my experience - which was specific to Iranians. I've also had very nice acquaintances who were lebanese, who seemed to have a very different outlook than the Iranians.

I don't see any of these groups as monolithic. But Islam needs massive reform before it can ever be compatible with progressive thought, and not just the "fundamentalists".

[Vladimir]

123. With respect, I don't think you can

say that "Islam needs massive reform", and claim that you "don't see any of these groups as monolithic" in one breath. Certain countries with a majority Muslim population certainly need reform, but that is a different matter.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[smirkymonkey]

58. I think your post was great.

I've pretty much had it with tolerating bad behaviour in the name of toeing the PC line. :applause:

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sweetheart]

69. You captured it

It is the very liberal view that got holland in to trouble in this
regard, and which many european nations are now having trouble with,
that they've imported a culture under the auspices of egaletarian
values and the enlightenment... a culture that rejects that, and seeks
to undermine it. To blame individuals is not right, nor nation states,
but really, to be so politically correct as to not discuss the
elephant in the room helps nobody.

Given that islam is the fastest growing religion in the USA, there IS
reasonable ground to have concern. To tolerate misogyny under the
umbrella of good-religious-PC is paving the road to hell with good
intentions... fear of taking a stand.

This topic is a hot button, and were we to have a decent standard of
media in our world, it would be explored in a way that allowed the
views to surface, and for us to discover collectively a way forward
that does not attack or stereotype persons, yet that preserves the
enlightenment.

[UdoKier]

114. And of course it was deleted...

I don't think that the problems inherent to Islam justify US or Israeli policies, or any sort of discrimination based on religion.

But saying that in general, "Islam is or has been a religion of peace" would be untruthful. It would also be a lie to say that about Christianity. This thread and the deleted posts are proof the mandarins of progressive thought will allow criticism of Christianity, but not Islam, unless it's limited to "Fundamentalists" It's totally dishonest, and they know it.

I just wish it was socially acceptable to call Islamics on their behavior just as its acceptable to call Christians on their behavior. Unlike suicide bombings, etc. these particular problems within Islam are not strictly limited to fundamentalists and extremists.

[sweetheart]

124. Fear of what we don't understand

Our media is filled with it. The bush people want to make war and
force change in the islamic middle east. France had a messy mess in
Algeria with fundamentalist islam, in attempting to create a
secular republic... and the colonial west has generally been burned
for 1000 years in dealing with the islamic cultures. Then, like
a broken down marriage, we accuse each other without compassion,
and become part of the problem.

It is not socially acceptable because it is the truth. America is
running a crusade to persecute, not the fundamentalist nutters, but
a greater concern... and the whole world is walking on eggshells...
worried deeply that this will come out as an american pogrom against
islam. It is why i started the thread the way i did. I deliberately
opened the volley exactly in tune with the way america is pursuing
its hidden pogrom.

But to speak it out loud is unthinkable. The thought police are out
(although methinks you were cuffed for questioning the moderators,
more than for your comments).

People are afraid. How dare you say that. Why are we offending such
a huge segment of the population... and yet here on this thread,
"hel" is an woman living in islamic turkey, and she should know better
than a load of media-misinformed american political correctness.

I was inspired to start this discussion after a priviledged IM chat with
hel.
She confirmed for me, that there is no point in dancing around the
issue... that we must cut down to the heart of the matter, and know
that the old testemant is a load of crap... same same with parts of
the quoran. There is no separating the culture from the dominant
influence behind it... a spade is spade... and you called it right.

There are no sacred cows, and its amazing how many appear when we
go to make some steaks. :-)

[FizzFuzz]

133. excellent thread, excellent post. Making me think, alot.

But I have no doubt that the old testament is over. No thank you I'll have none of that. So destructive. Whatever help it provided to people at one time is done. Time for a new paradigm. I have no use for any of the Abrahamic religions.

I wish those other posts here didn't get deleted.

[Hello_Kitty]

70. Shortly after 9-11

I got royally flamed on a women's message board for having the temerity to suggest that all the exhortations from political and religious leaders to "pray together" and "go to your churches and temples" were an attempt to discourage people from questioning the value of religion itself. Gotta get people prayin' right away or else they'll start thinkin' and we can't have that! I also said that all this discussion of religious extremism ignored the fact that those crazy extremists come from somewhere. It is so-called mainstream religions, every one of them, that provide the medium for the crazy fringe movements to flourish. The women were pissed at me because many of them were turning to their faiths in this time of national tragedy and how dare anyone question that! Or even worse, draw the obvious comparisons between the sudden religious fervor and bloodlust for revenge here with "those crazy Islamics" over there.

I really got their goats when I asked them how many athiests were among the hijackers. :evilgrin:

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

62. "My, you certainly missed the point..." eom

[Bridget Burke]

67. You can cherry pick any "Holy Book" in the world & find worse.

Our own secular society was founded by "enlightened" Christan men--half of whom owned slaves. When we've stopped killing & oppressing, punishing the poor & ignoring the sick, we can begin to reform all the other cultures.

[sweetheart]

72. Walk the walk

You say what I myself believe, that the loudest speech is action by
example. That to make our society one that has equal rights for women
and all minorities is the right way to approach. Then the culture is
congruent with its rhetoric and has the moral authority to lead by
example. Without that, its empty rhetoric.

[Malikshah]

71. Islam is an it? It is so monolithic that one verse

encapsulates all?

Wow.

Just...
wow.

*puts asbestos suit on*

have fun folks.

[sweetheart]

76. monolithic or not

Hmmm.. nigeria, egypt, kuwait, saudi arabia, pakistan, kashmir,
india, indonesia, iran... there is a womens rights problem, and it is
really dreadful. There IS a link between culture and islam, despite
the fact that there is a broad range of cultures represented.

Shall we rather ignore the elephant in a room and accept that women
should not have civil rights by literalists... shall we accept slavery
in the south? Is it not the same question. If religion is used
to justify slavery, then it must be disabused.

Sounds like you have more to contribute than what you put foward.

I've flame retardant skin. What is the truth?

[Malikshah]

80. Is truth unchanging law??

Sorry-- not going to get dragged into this

The questions alone show that the issue has not been thought through.

Here's a question that should be dealt with before such blanked statements are made.

Is it the religion or the culture (societal mores)?

Go forth and have fun--been there done that and wasted much breath rehashing the issues and arguing with those who have not thought things through.

best of luck

[sweetheart]

83. The truth is equal rights for all persons

It may have nothing to do with islam... but there is a very high
statistical correlaton that needs some explaining.

Perhaps it is the culture, as much as history and religion shape culture.

But to be frank, i've not a single experience of islamic culture that
is NOT extremely misogynist, and i want to know why. You can call it
blanket views, but they are backed up by so much evidence, it begs
asking... there IS an elephant in the room... and islam is being used
for repressing women.

Yes, i am a buddhist, and am ignorant of the sectarian nature that makes
pakistani women's repression different from saudia arabian womens
repression. This hardly excuses the american variants of womens
repression, but that is not the discussion.. to hide behind excuses.

It seems for all the political correctness and insense of persons
on this thread claiming a blanket indictment, there is no real excuse,
except the denial that its a problem.

Its probably clinton's fault. :-)

[Malikshah]

92. Not hiding behind excuses nor conding that--

rather, offering a critique for a poorly worded initial question--not very well thought out.

Followed up by a "what is truth" issue-- again not very well thought out.

I'm assuming you're not thinking I'm somehow defending Islami as a belief system, or Muslim societies throughout the world--or criticising them-- for I'm not-- as mentioned, I'm not going to get suckered into a useless discussion that ends up nowhere and that has gone on ad nauseum for decades.

Why focus on one culture, one religion, one country? Why? What possible use is it to debate the issue?

Wouldn't it be better to focus on one's own environment, own community and start there before branching out?

Enjoy.

[smirkymonkey]

130. Great post sweetheart!

It's about time someone mention the elephant in the room. There is no excuse. It's about human rights abuses, not culture.

[hel]

85. Doesn't religion get imposed on culture? n/t

[Deja Q]

77. No. I can't respect Xianity either...

It says thalt shalt not kill but then has a few sentences later on saying that (whatever group of people) is an abomination that deserves death. :crazy:

All relgions have their doublespeak, distortions, and scapegoats... they also have their good points but those are ignored. Especially when you need a scapegoat.

[MrPrax]

87. Being a Progressive...

by definition means you take your cue from equality, liberty and human rights.

Religious gibberish is a distant second and in no way can 'religious' edict take precedent over hard-fought rights...you can take tolerance only so far, but at a certain point you must discount intolerant ideas and treat them with disdain and prohibition, if necessary.

How about something a little trickier:

"What about providing SEPARATE BUT EQUAL male and female 'prayer' rooms in workplaces or universities?"

Why rant about a passage in the Koran/Bible/Bhuddist writings ('women can't be enlightened'), when you can pick much more interesting forms of discrimination?

[sweetheart]

96. Trickier?

discrimination in terms of prayer rooms, and number of toilets in womens
bathrooms is certainly an issue, however it is hardly small pickings to
note that MILLIONS of women are denied their franchise supported by
american tax dollars, in saudi arabia, pakistan and other places where
it is simply wrong on a much greater scale than his and hers prayer
rooms.

And as many european nations can attest, who have settled expatriot
communities from some of these nations, the culture that settles comes
with a blatant disregard for progressive values, womens rights and
homosexual rights.

Given that enlightened women teach openly in the USA, the buddhist
writings are confined. An enlightened woman can be killed in some
nations without it being a crime. One set of ideals is empty
rhetoric of lost crap from some misguided patriarch, and another has
been used as the foundation of law. It is a serious concern, and i
merely quote a passage to prompt discussion of what could be behind
the repression of many millions of women in our world today... a
passage that is openly used as justification by fundamentalists.

I'll be dang happy when the biggest problem is his and hers prayer
rooms.... trickier for a penny, but not the weight of a pound.

Your comments about progressives are inspiring and i really think
that our political movement should brand itself around these values
first and foremoest, lest they be forgotten for the dross...

like i read what you say... and go duuhh right!! of course!! and
yet it is somehow lost in the fog of partisan warfare.

[MrPrax]

113. Right Said...

Yup I agree and I do believe that in this day and age it is purely an act of subjugation in the countries that you list. It can no longer simply be viewed as 'backwards' or mistaken cultural and traditional beliefs.

It is organzied and ideological and does target, especially educated women, who do want change. These women tend to be number one on the 'fundie' hitlist over there, as well as our own (NOTE: The childish tirades that accompany the womens' movement here regarding 'choice' or domestic violence)

But what's to be done...certainly in our OWN neck of the woods, we can draw stark lines, but what can be done in countries where we simply exploit.

Certainly I would like to see 'human rights' as a first step before trade and I certainly would NOT like to see these issues being manipulated simply as preamble to imperialist adventurism.

It is disgusting the way someone LIKE Bush/Rendon Group, will note womens' subjgation in AF and Iraq, but in all fairness, couldn't give a shit and probably does think women have traditional places defined entirely by men.

Your point about the washrooms should be a litmus test. There have been some jurisdictions that have attempted to make this mandatory--god knows being a guy going to a large event and having to stand beside my girlfriend waiting and chatting in line during an intermission--it sure would be nice IF common sense and decency ruled over the pettiness of developers' (NOTE: these same people use the same args to keep from making their facilities handicap accessible as well)

My real reason for noting the 'gender' prayer rooms is demonstrate a form of 'dangerous hypocrisy' in our societies. Quite 'liberal' men and women will approve of this discrimination, simply because of 'religious beliefs'. Why? You are either 'for' or 'against' and stop wasting time inventing 'special cases' that will simply undermine the the small victories gained.

Any form of discrimination and institutionalized segregation is going to have a justification or rationale, this is just simply one based on 'that's what we do back home and we're Muslim' or 'that's what the Bible intended'.

My understanding of human history is that ALL religion, regardless of which one it is, transforms over time and accommodates it's practices to local custom.

Well, respect and equality for all, IS local custom; you change and don't ask for accommodation for whatever it is you practice, if it doesn't pass that basic 'smell test'.

[Cleita]

91. I think if they are respectful of you, you should respect them.

I have worked side by side with moslem women from the ME. Although I ran into a couple of rebels, most of them liked being moslem and didn't consider it a burden. I got the impression their husbands respected them and didn't abuse them. I had to respect them for their beliefs, even when it came to that damn scarf they wore. I really can't consider it any different than the nuns' habits.

Now, both the teachings of St. Paul about women and passages like that one you quoted from the Koran are similar. No wonder. The ideas come from the same part of the world. I find we can't be condemning peoples'cultures that are different from our when in fact they are so similar.

I do believe that real abuse of women is universal and shouldn't be tolerated by the laws of any country. Unfortunately countries that allow for this because of religious beliefs, and our country is no exception in the recent past, open up the ease with which abuse can be done and sanctioned by secular law.

[deadparrot]

93. It's a sad testament to religious fundamentalism.

I don't care about what religion it is...religion nuts suck.

I'm not talking about regular practitioners; it's the ones who think they have a direct line to God, and that they're the only ones who know the "truth," that become dangerous. They're dangerous if they're Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or otherwise.

Sure, we're closer to Christian fundies at home, but that doesn't mean that fundies of a different stripe don't commit equal or greater atrocities.

Fundamentalists are, simply put, the worst. In my book, fundamentalism is a religious cult all its own. Doesn't matter what category they are.

But I'm against organized religion. So I'm biased.

[Codeine]

95. It's a sad testament to progressives...

...that so many messages in this thread were reported and pulled. Sad-sack apologists for fundamentalist religion of any stripe should be ashamed to call themselves progressives.

[Matariki]

97. please

there is as much difference between moderate Muslims and fundamental Muslims as there is between their Christian counterparts. knowing plenty of non-sexist, moderate Muslims, i find the call to disrespect another's religion unsettling.

[sweetheart]

99. Clearly moderation is not the problem

It seems, as much as folks are fundamentalist christians who think the
bible is a literal message from god, there is a problem for the rights
of millions of women who have all the rights today of slaves.

Before the civil war, we could have similarly cried out that only the
extreme plantations abused slavery, whilst the moderate ones where
not abusing the institution. And surely to expect slaves to be the
ones crying for their own liberation is not realistic. Some will,
but as with american civil war history, most will keep to the status
quo.

Apologists need to reflect on what their own life would be like had
they happened to be born in a country ruled by sharia, and how far
their moral moderation would go when they stoned the woman next door
to death for adultery.

Some folks on this thread have pointed very clearly that the enlightenment,
womens rights, and liberal democracy are much more recent institutions
than the patriarchal cultures from which these religions emerged. And
that through education and awareness, we can come to understand these
religions in our modern context. Fine indeed, but free the slaves.

[Endangered Specie]

101. Let me know what religious beliefs you have...

I bet good money I can find some pretty bad quotes from your religious texts...

Quoting a few lines out of a fairly long text is not exactly the most scholarly way to criticize a religion...

Yes, Islam does have its share fundamentialist/conservative nutjobs... but so does Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and all other religions, INCLUDING the non-religious crowds.

One should not judge a religion solely on that, but should consider the others ( beleivers of religion x) who are moderate/liberal, law abiding and decent.

[sweetheart]

105. Have you spent time in one of the islamic countries?

.. like pakistan or others like that. I'm really addressing it as
a cultural phenomena. And there has been, and is today some horrendous
abuse of the rights of women in these societies.

I am a buddhist, and some buddhist texts suggest that a woman cannot
realize enlightenment, and/or that a woman during her period is unclean...
the usual crap... the essential buddha awakening is direct, without
books and *is* meditation. The books are ancillary to the practice,
and in this regard, have not the power they have in a few particular
relgiions that stem from a patriarchal POV from a certain region of the
world.

If you can find a buddhist text that suggests you should beat your wife
to keep her in line, i'll be suprised.

There IS a problem with the socio-culture that travels with islam, and
to pretend that the classic liberal tolerance of difference, which you
are embodying in your post, most honourably at that, does not defuse
a systemic problem of the enslavement of millions of women for whatever
excuse.

The sacred text of a religion dominated by fundamentalists, is used
for henious crimes against women, and no, i don't respect that.
I hope the moderate members of that religion take the bull by the
horns and sort out their erratic brothers... religion is no
excuse.

The american nazi-xtians are another problem entirely, one that
comes from a total divorce from their religious roots... that they
are a total perversion of christ, using the bible to find obscure
excuses for their criminality... and this they have in common with
those who abuse islam to repress many many millions of women.

[Endangered Specie]

108. there is a difference between "islamic countries" and "islam"

sorta like theres a difference between "Judaism" and "Isreal".

Corrupt governments, whose power has been seized by fundie nuts, something we hope doesnt happen here. Governments have a good record of abusing religion.

I remember a middle eastern professor say during a forum: "Yes, we know we(the middle east) have our problems, probably more than our fair share, but we dont need you (westerners) telling us about it"

[burythehatchet]

102. The question is somewhat troublesome

To even presume that any one of us has the wisdom or knowledge to judge a faith that is practiced by 100's of millions of people is quite odd on its face. Who are we to judge, essentially. That said, before you read a book about religion you should know what you believe about religion. Either you believe it is the word of an almighty being, or you believe it is a set of standards for governing society and is only valid within the experiential context of those people and those times when the book was written.

Fundamentalism is the belief that the literal word of god is in those books. Fundamentalists are ready to kill those who disagree with their book, literally. Be it Jerry Falwell or Ayatollah Whositz.

Therefore a modern Muslim family will view the issue differently than a devout family living in Mecca. I've experienced this as a first generation immigrant. Moving here with my family, our generation has had to endure the transformation from patriarchal family structure towards a more westernized lifestyle. Religious extremists are always the true enemies of their professed religion.

[sweetheart]

107. Arise the secular democratic estate

There is no indictment of 100's of millions of people, rather some
words in a book that has been used to justify modern barbarism and
abrogation of right self evident.

Your wise advise to consider more the fundamentalists, and the ignorant
who abuse religious teachings to perpetrate crimes is powerful.

At some point, however, we do encounter the issue of sharia and what
that means for women, and whether any man's holy book allows them to
deny civil rights.

The bush people are not christians, they are criminals... and with that
same brush, we should look to any religion that finds in its ways to
repress and destroy civil rights in the name of god. The prayers of
so many millions of enslaved persons are falling out of the mailbox
of the god at meccah, and in to our mailbox, that we treat this
as a matter of secular rights over which no religion has dominion.

It has come time to become totally intolerate of any culture or
ideology that represses the equal rights of women.... dammit.

[mondo joe]

103. Don't respect anny religion - just the right of individuals to believe

what they choose.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. Mohammed's teachings improved the status of Arab women

at the time they were written down.

He forbade female infanticide and allowed women to inherit property in their own name. He never required veiling, only said that women should dress modestly. A minority of Indonesians and Malays, for example, have only started wearing the hijab and the nun-like outfit (in tropical heat!) within the last couple of decades and under the influence of foreign preachers. (Malay women traditionally wore a long cotton skirt, a long-sleeved, lightweight cotton blouse, and an Aunt Jemima scarf, which sounds a lot more sensible.)

[Endangered Specie]

111. "Look what the cat dragged in"

what I said upon reading most of this thread.

[bicentennial_baby]

118. Whew! I'm not the only one?!

What a bunch of hateful spew...at least we can now see one more thing a bunch of DUers and freepville can agree on... :puke:

[sweetheart]

120. clearing of the throat

Its a collective problem with engaging this topic. There is a lot of
power inside awareness of this issue. And first we have the
misunderstandings, the phlegm, and the wrong views. From them, we
make sushi! :-)

If there is anywhere on earth that we can come learn in such discussion
without killing someone, its on DU. We have hardline feminists.
We have muslim women living in muslim countries, american muslims,
atheists and a whole lot more... of course there is gonna be a wild
set of disagreements. It takes many music notes to have a jam... and
sometimes its just a bit raw.

Mixed in the middle are all the thought impressions of our culture's
media... its vindictiveness, its hatred of islam, and the neocons plans
on a global petrol takeover. Then add to the mix some imperalialism
and unconscious manifest destiny and we have what the cat dragged in.

:-)

[bicentennial_baby]

119. 1 in 6 American women will be victims of attempted/completed rape...

Does American culture respect women? Should we respect America? Is it institutional?

[sweetheart]

121. well said

Given your point, it is not the least bit suprising that the
hardline fundamentalists like bin laden want bush and his patriarchy
in power. The patriarchy malignancy is a global phenomena, and it is
totally institutional.

[bicentennial_baby]

122. well we do agree there

I can't take Islam or Muslims as a monolith, as I cannot for Xtians, Jews, Liberals, Conservatives, etc.

But yes, I agree that the patriarchal malignancy is an institutional and global phenomenon.

[FizzFuzz]

127. And, I think its 1 in 3 women will be attacked in some way, at some time

in their lives. Like, Rape, domestic violence, relationship violence, etc. etc.

America has always been a macho country, and so much more so with the testosterone worshipping, anti wimp (=femiphobic), hyper authoritarianism Christian atmosphere that is in power now.

On the other hand, I think this extremely negative trend is helping to throw into even greater relief the truth that so many of us CAN see, which is that authoritarianism, sexism, bigotry, dehumanisation of ANY one is not the path we want to take. The more clear the demarcation, the more pressing and definite will be people's decisions as to which path they want to take.

There's a very interesting book out now called "The Wimp Factor", an excellent analysis of the mass psychology and the Bush admin. culture of femiphobia, which is crucial for their geed, warring and imperialism.

[Spider Jerusalem]

126. Should we impose our mores on people of a vastly different culture?

Seriously, that's an utterly stupid question. What makes you think Islam DOESN'T respect women? Sure, there are fundamentalist lunatics. Buty there are Christian and Jewish fundamentalist lunatics who aren't any better...should we disavow any respect for Christianity and Judaism because of it?

I have many Muslim friends, and most of the Muslims I know encourage their daughters to attend college and seek advanced degrees, etc...it's moronic to assume a group of nearly a billion people will fit with your preconceived and ignorant stereotype.

[FizzFuzz]

129. I think there is a difference between imposing our mores and calling basic

human rights violations wrong. I do not accept the line of thinking that says, "well because its an expression of their culture, we HAVE to respect it." No, not when it is a threat to the very lives of a group held down and forced into weakness by it. We do NOT sit by and say, fine, do it your way, not my problem, I will send women back who seek refuge here against horrifying mutilations decreed to be carried out on them by their culture, because I respect your culture.

I draw a line at accepting cultural mores when those mores include barbarisms against certain groups. Just as mostly anyone here would have no problem decrying the cultural mores that some cultures hold which permit ethnic cleansings. And those fundamentalist lunatics, who admittedly don't represent moderate, educated Islam, are not some fringe operating in small out of the way enclaves. They ARE the ruling class of Saudi Arabia, they DO hold power in many tribal societies in the area, the DO enforce Sharia Law as the system of justice in the land.

The equivalent group here in the states, Ultra-Conservative Christians, Dominionists, are growing and amassing ever greater power to enact just such an American version of Sharia Law here. I doubt anyone will be comfortable saying "well we need to respect their cultural mores", when those mores include Old Testament death punishment for adulterers, witches, blasphemers and sodomites.



Personally, I've never been comfortable with any of the Abrahamic religions that create some kind of heirarchy which necessarily places women at the bottom rung. Hard to imagine a true respect for the feminine aspects within us all to find any purchase in that soil.

[Spider Jerusalem]

132. Well, I agree with that...

the Wahhabists, "Twelver" Shi'a, and other fundamentalists are, for lack of a better way of phrasing it, fucked up. But that's also largely because of continued social and economic inequities in the societies where they've taken root; a population kept poor, ignorant, and under the control of imams and ayatollahs is hardly going to be progressive. My point was that the actions of these groups don't necessarily represent Islam as a whole (see for instance Turkey, which is a much more moderate, even progressive, Islamic culture), any more than the actions of extreme Fundamentalists in the US represent Christianity, or the actions of extreme fundamentalist Jews represent Judaism.