Note to anti-Psychiatry Types

[Modem Butterfly]

Untreated mental illness kills people. People who suffer from mental illness, whether it's postpartum depression or paranoid schizophrenia, will NOT just "snap out of it" if they change their diet and exercise regime or pray really hard. Very few people would tell someone suffering from arthritis that the pain medicine they take to get through the day is only "masking" their symptoms and just making them THINK they feel better. Why would anyone say that to someone suffering from depression?

Edited for spelling

[koopie57]

1. I hear you Modem Butterfly

and not only that but what a big responsibility to take upon oneself, to tell someone something like that. You are taking their life in your hands talking stupid like that (you not meaning you).

on edit: Alcoholics Anonymous? I suppose that there are groups that are very good, but my husband had to go to meetings (he has been sober for 20 years) and there was a leader there they called Dr. Gloom and Doom. I met with him once and I reported him cuz he was so over-the-top. Everyone but him was an alcoholic or in denial.

I'm taking meds for depression and my daughter is struggling with some mental health problem. She is hard to diagnose. If someone told her to stop her meds, I would have a hard time not ripping their backends off. I have gotten calls from counselors and nurses saying she is in the hospital or threating suicide. Just last weekend we were on a wild race trying to find her after a friend called and said she was threating to hurt herself.

But the thing with meds for mental health is they need to be administered so precisely. The last thing anyone suffering needs is advice from an idiot. Unfortunately, it is the idiots who offer the most advice.

[ET Awful]

4. Well, I can think of one organization which has convinced lots of people

that the entire mental health profession is a hoax, and has then suckered same people out of monstrous sums of money (much more than they ever would have paid for legitimate care from a real mental health professional).

This same organization has an unusually high number of members who commit suicide or die under unusual circumstances. Many of those were suffering from conditions that could most likely have been diagnosed and properly treated had they not been manipulated into believing that such treatment never worked.

[Ragnar]

2. You'd be shocked to know how common that problem is.

As a former AA member, I can tell you one of the most offensive things about the organization is the tolerance of people who actively ridicule and persecute people on antidepressants. There are people in the 12 step programs who will claim a person on prozac or paxil is not sober because of anti-depressants. I had friends commit suicide in those programs, none of whom were on anti-depressants...I always wonder if they would still be around if the people in those rooms were a little less bigoted.

(This is not to say someone with a drug problem should not seek help in AA or NA - just ignore the assholes who tell you that your shrink is wrong)

[tavalon]

3. Oh my God

that's awful. I was in CoDA for a couple of years and I never remember them saying anything silly like that. It's extremely sad that 12 step groups that are so pivotal in helping people save themselves would have this one amazingly destructive meme. Yuck!

[Ragnar]

8. I should clarify,

It is not the official policy of any twelve step group that anti-depressants or other pschological meds constitute relapse. There are a core of old-timers in both the AA and NA programs who propagate this belief though, and people going into these programs deserve to be forewarned.

[OKDem08]

6. commercialized rx

but don't you think there is a inordinate campaign by drug companies to create a market for these types of medications? I worked for a company recently where I was the ONLY individual in my department that was not on some type of anti-depressant medication.

[Ragnar]

7. Of course that is a problem.

It does not negate the fact that a genuine need exists for these drugs, however.

[AndyTiedye]

191. Sounds Like It Must Have Been a Depressing Place to Work

I worked for a company recently where I was the ONLY individual in my department that was not on some type of anti-depressant medication.

[NMMNG]

9. Yeah,

I find it interesting how many people who regularly "self medicate" with alcohol or illicit drugs, but deride those who use prescription medications. They call us "weak", scoff or snub their noses at us. "Man, I'd never stoop to taking drugs for my (insert name of mental illness here).


As if alcohol/pot/whatever isn't a drug....

[Ragnar]

10. There is a logic to it.

Antidepressants are psychoactive chemicals. People in AA and NA have a self admitted problem with such substances. It is the assertion of the people who claim no recovering person should take those drugs that to do so is to voluntarily take a drug in order to change your mental state. While this is true, in the strictest sense, it is irrelevant. The problem addicts have isn't taking a drug to change their mental state, it is the compulsion to keep taking the drug over and over. Long acting psychological medications are simply not abusable in this way.

The people are generally well meaning, if misguided.

[Modem Butterfly]

16. I have to take sleep meds

I have a long-term problem with sleep. I suffer from insomnia and when I do sleep, I wake up feeling like I've been hit by a truck. I don't get much restful Stage 2 sleep, so I take 50 mgs of Trazedone at bedtime. I get the best sleep of my life every night, I wake up feeling rested and relaxed. My concentration and health has improved, and my mental outlook is much brighter. If I forget to renew my 'scrip or take a nap, I feel like shit. Trazedone has changed my life.

But you know what? When people find out I take "sleeping pills", they say stupid crap like, "Did you try changing your diet? How about warm milk? You know a hot bath and a shot of liquor helps me every time I can't sleep," or worse, "Aren't you afraid of becoming addicted or overdosing? I'd rather not sleep than end up like that,"

I have had problems sleeping for most of my life. I figured it was "natural" and I didn't need anything but more sleep, more warm milk, more hot baths, more booze. I never bothered to mention it to a doctor because I figured I was doing something wrong, and I didn't want to end up addicted or OD. I lived like his for 20 years until I was diagnosed with lupus and the Rheumy just happened to ask if I had trouble sleeping. Now I actually enjoy going to bed at night. I am kicking myself for years spent waking up feeling worse than the night before.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

30. You might want to google lupus and glyconutrients..... that is if

you are still having problems with it.... as far as the sleep issue goes, there are some very good articles here:

http://search.lef.org/src-cgi-bin/MsmFind.exe?QUERY_ENCODING=UTF-8&CFGNAME=MssFind.cfg&ALLCATS=X&NO_DL=X&CAT_KEY=&AGE_WGT=0&QUERY=sleep%20disorders

[smirkymonkey]

32. Actually, Trazodone is officially an anti-depressant

but there is an ancillary effect of inducing sleep. In fact, many drug & alcohol treatment centers give it out to newly recoving individuals.

As long as you are taking it as directed and not popping it all day long to check out, it's fine.

I have nearly gone insane from the inabilty to sleep - I consider that much more dangerous to my mental health than taking a relatively harmless anti-depressant.

[MsTryska]

168. i thought it was an anti-psychotic.

at least that's what my merck manual says - but it may be outdated.

[Rich Hunt]

50. I take sleep meds, too

I take sleep medication as well - less so since I stopped drinking coffee, but I still take it from time to time. Sleep deprivation will drive you crazy. I've tried herbal teas and everything, but I don't have time to obsess on what naughty thing I'm not eating. Hell, the medication works!

Don't listen to the proselytizers who will try to "sell" you on one remedy or another. Do what works best for you, and don't apologize for it.

Far too many people on the 'net take an interest in what you suffer from, what you're taking, or what you're not taking. That's none of their business - it's between you and your doctor. Anyone who thinks you don't know what's best for you is not "helping" - they're insulting you.

[NMMNG]

138. I have a sleep problem as well

I'm sure being a day sleeper (I work nights) has a great deal to do with it. I tried Trazodone and it worked like a charm, but it also resulted in me having a 10-11 day bout of status-migrainous every time my period came around. I'm in the process of clearing it out of my system and then I'm back to the doctor to see about something else.

[murray hill farm]

169. when u say sleeping meds, people think

narcotic based sleeping pills..which are addictive..and do create very quickly a dependency..and most likely they are responding in an effort to save you from that cycle. trazedone is not a narcotic based medication, it is more like an antidepressant..and it is not addictive. if you should choose to stop taking it, you will go through an adjustment period...but they are not addictive in the normal sense...try telling folks that you take an antidepressant type medication at night..and that it allows you to sleep..keeps you from thinking, thinking, thinking..ha..and allows you to sleep..which is what trazedone does. it does not, as in narcotic type sleeping medications, make u sleep. trazedone, in my opinion is one of the very best medications developed to date.

[smirkymonkey]

29. There are people like that in AA, most of who are idiots or

power mongers, however that is NOT AA's opinion and they even have a pamphlet addressing the issue which states that psychiatric medication is an isssue between you and your doctor. It is officially considered an outside issue.

However, there are individuals in AA who have their heads up their asses and try to impose THEIR interpretation of sobriety on others, and I have also seen this have tragic consequences. If you go, and somebody tells you that, ignore them and find someone else who is living in the modern world.

[Ragnar]

45. The horrible part of it is...

A lot of those people have 10 or more years of sobriety, and to a newly recovering person, that alone can be persuasive. Frankly, the problem is dillute in AA, where the membership has grown very large and with a great variety of people. In NA, the problem is more extreme. For starters, many NA adherents abused pills, and that alone makes it a tough sell. And above that, a smaller membership and a less educated one makes it harder to find someone with any real knowledge on the subject.

Both programs, with all their drawbacks do beat the shit out of dying face down in the gutter, stoned, high or drunk.

[smirkymonkey]

57. I think the AA/NA oldtimers aren't aware of the new classes of

antidepressants and they think they work like the benzodiazapines or other sedating drugs, which is simply not true.

The SSRI's and other newer drugs are slow acting and therefore the potential for psychological addiction is slim to none. There is a lot of misinformation around both in 12-step programs and without. I feel sorry for innocent newcomers who are influenced by such ignorance.

[wildeyed]

95. Maybe that is just in your area?

I have been going to AA for years and years. I know several sober people who take antidepressants. I don't recall ever hearing any negativity about dual diagnosed people who were sober. In fact, early on, I remember people saying, if you need more help than AA can give you, get it. See a psychiatrist or a medical doctor, whatever it takes.

Not saying that what you heard wasn't true, just that I did not experience that in my part of the country.

[Ragnar]

107. I got hooked in with a pretty old crew of AAs.

Hell, I know people who used to exchange letters with Dr. Bob. I think it depends a lot on where you go. I felt most comfortable around the roughest crew of drunks...In Seattle WA, that meant the Fremont Fellowship Hall. There you find a lot of people in their first hours of sobriety and in their 20th year. I liked being around both - one for hope and the other as a warning.

But many of the old-timers there were of the school that any chemicals (ans somehow this never included caffeine or nicotine) constituted getting loaded. Not all of them, but many had this idea. Likewise at many of the other meetings attended by the older crew.

Now, I learned more from those folks than I could possibly write down, and without them I might not have made it through those first couple of years. But I am glad that I picked a man with an open mind for a sponsor, and he was of the mindset you mention re: outside help.

[wildeyed]

113. lol, never the caffeine or nicotine.

And certainly not the processed sugar products.

I got sober in an AA club that was a great mix of old and new. It was near the homeless shelter, but also convenient to the business district. And most of the local rehabs stopped by on various nights, too. So it was the old timers, newly sober, rich and poor.

I think what you said is right. AA is a wonderful resource, but don't expect everyone involved to be knowledgeable about everything.

[yardwork]

181. I've said this myself at several AA meetings

I also point out that published AA policy is that people should seek psychiatric care for mental health problems, and that it is wrong for anyone in AA to dispense medical advice to others. Bill W himself consulted psychiatrists and took meds.

I ask the rhetorical question, "Would we tell a diabetic to stop taking their insulin?"

[NMMNG]

5. Amen sister!

As I've said before, I do not deny that there are cases where psychiatric medications have been overprescribed/misprescribed, etc. However there are similar instances where somatic medications have been overprescribed and misprescribed, with the same if not more frequency.


Mental illness is real, it is often devastating and it can kill people. Up to 23% of Americans will be affected by mental illness at any given time during the course of an average year. You cannot simply "pick yourself up by your bootstraps" and get over it.

Often the mechanism of action for psychotropic medications is "unknown". However if you look up the description of many somatic medications in the PDR you will see the exact same thing. Therefore dismissing psychotropic medication because the mechanism of their action is not yet known is ignorant.

Millions of people have been helped, and are currently being helped by psychotropic medications, either alone or as adjuncts to other therapies. Abuses and mishaps have occurred, to be sure, but the same can be said of somatic medicine. To denounce psychiatry as a practice because of particular incidences that also occur elsewhere in medicine is irresponsible.

[ClintonTyree]

11. I was married to a schizophrenic, manic-depressive....

I say "was" because she died of Leukemia 2 years ago. Six months after we were married she started to manifest all of the classic symptoms of her disease and was hospitalized for 2 months. With the correct medication she could live a nearly normal life, but certain people kept undermining her treatment, telling her she "wasn't sick" and could be treated with herbs and relaxation techniques. Of course, this only succeeded in landing her right back into the Psych ward for months more.
To those who would attempt to convince people with severe mental problems that they're "not sick" and only need herbal remedies and kind, loving compassion; fuck off. Leave the healing to the medical profession and stop harming people's lives. Mental illness is devastating for both the patient and their families, kindly butt out heal thyself, moron.

[barb162]

83. you're right. A friend of mine was manic depressive and whenever

she got off the lithium, she'd start doing really stupid things, like getting herself arrested for walking out of her apt. nude and a whole host of things like that. She'd end up in the hospital for weeks

[HysteryDiagnosis]

12. People who suffer from depression can often be helped by

Sam-E, DHA, DHEA, St. John's Wort, and others. A person should really consult with a physician who is versed in this approach to depression... it's not like a sore muscle or joint... they won't lead you to do something really stupid.




http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-040a.shtml#nat

>>Depression


NUTRITION AND DEPRESSION

Alcohol
Caffeine
Sugar
Hippocrates, the great Greek physician and Father of Medicine, said: "From the brain, and from the brain only, arise our pleasures, joys, laughter, and jests, as well as our sorrows, pains, griefs, and tears."

It's startling to learn that there are 15 trillion neurons (nerve cells) in the human brain. There are far more glial cells (neuroglia) that fill the spaces between the neurons, Schwann cells, and miles of blood vessels to nourish the three or so pounds of brain tissue in the average head.

Three pounds isn't much: only 2% of the body weight of a person weighing 150 pounds. Brain cells are hungry cells, demanding nourishment from as much as 30% of circulating blood. We used to think that the brain could somehow protect itself from nutrient deficiencies, but today we know that the brain requires specific nutrients. If the brain doesn't get them, its biochemistry changes, resulting in fatigue, depression, irritability, and other symptoms.

For example, the brain needs a good supply of B vitamins to act as coenzymes (catalysts) for many functions, including converting nutrients from food to fuel that our bodies can use. Glucose is the brain's primary fuel. If glucose levels fall, we may feel depressed, tired, or unable to think clearly.

B vitamins also are needed to help the brain make neurotransmitters, the "messengers" that enable brain cells to communicate with each other. Vitamin B6 is needed to manufacture serotonin, a neurotransmitter that produces feelings of well-being. Without proper supplies of vitamin B12, the brain could not make acetylcholine, an important neurotransmitter involved in learning and memory. The B vitamin known as folate (folic acid) is needed to make an important group of mood-regulating chemicals called catecholamines, including dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine (Bukreev 1978; Carney et al. 1990; Carney 1995; Fujii et al. 1996; Masuda et al. 1998; Bottiglieri et al. 2000; Zhao et al. 2001).

In many cases, depressed people with blood levels indicating that they lacked key nutrients respond quite well to supplements. Unfortunately, most physicians do not prescribe natural supplements to treat depression (Carney et al. 1990; Carney 1995).

In general, people who are depressed should follow these dietary guidelines:<<

[Modem Butterfly]

13. So you have no problem with psychoactive meds...

...just so long as they're sold over the counter at GNC and not prescribed by a doctor. Got it.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

15. Well... let's look at it in another way.... perhaps you can tell me

what the rate of depression in Japan is.... or in other eastern nations that consume tons of foods rich in omega three fats.... then we can decide whether people have prozac deficiencies or perhaps an essential fatty acid deficiency. I don't consider fish to be a psychoactive drug.... and yes, I take it every day.

I need fish... so I'll take prozac. I don't get the logic.

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/ect/selfhelp/prozacofthesea.asp

>>Indeed, in countries where folks eat lots of fish, like Taiwan and Japan, the depression rate runs 10 times lower than in North America. And when cholesterol and fat were lowered in one study by replacing animal fat with fish, depression improved rather than worsened. But in most cholesterol studies, people replace animal fats with corn oil, which the body cannot convert to DHA.<<

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&biw=1422&q=depression+japan+america+dha

[Modem Butterfly]

17. Japan is suffering an epidemic of suicide

http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/features/0404/20suicide.html

http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/1543.cfm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20050602-12393800-bc-japan-suicides.xml

Maybe they're just not eating enough fish. :evilfrown:

And for comparison's sake, the sheer NUMBER of suicides in the US in 2001 was 30,622 people, slightly LOWER than the number of suicides in Japan, a nation with HALF the US population.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm

Thank-you for perfectly illustrating my point.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

41. You are assuming that these younger Japanes are eating

a traditional diet.... I suggest that you consider that they are not... and that there are cultural and economic issues involved as well.

Let me illustrate:




Risk Factors

The first step in preventing suicide is to identify and understand the risk factors. A risk factor is anything that increases the likelihood that persons will harm themselves. However, risk factors are not necessarily causes. Research has identified the following risk factors for suicide (DHHS 1999):

Previous suicide attempt(s)
History of mental disorders, particularly depression
History of alcohol and substance abuse
Family history of suicide
Family history of child maltreatment
Feelings of hopelessness
Impulsive or aggressive tendencies
Barriers to accessing mental health treatment
Loss (relational, social, work, or financial)
Physical illness
Easy access to lethal methods
Unwillingness to seek help because of the stigma attached to mental health and substance abuse disorders or suicidal thoughts
Cultural and religious beliefs—for instance, the belief that suicide is a noble resolution of a personal dilemma
Local epidemics of suicide
Isolation, a feeling of being cut off from other people

[Modem Butterfly]

59. In your original post, you asked if people have prozac deficiencies.

I believe that the Japanese have a deficency in the manner in which they address mental health.

You implied that the Japanese have a lower rate of depression than Americans because they have a diet rich in Omega3. In fact, the Japanese are committing suicide in appalling numbers, in real numbers greater than the US, which has twice the population. A terrible tragedy and indicative of a serious problem.

The fact that McDonald's does business in Japan isn't really an indicator of the Japanese diet. If the Japanese had fully embraced a Western diet, we would see similar rates of certain cancers, obesity and related problems, and high cholesterol. Moreover, by your logic, we would also see much lower suicide rates (after all, Americans have a very unhealthy diet yet are much lower suicide risks than the Japanese)

Your list of risk factors is informative, however, the fact remains that suicide is a prime indicator of depression.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

88. we would see similar rates of certain cancers,

http://www.umm.edu/prostate/prisks.htm


race
Prostate cancer is nearly twice as common among African-American men than it is among Caucasian-American men. Japanese and Chinese men native to their country have the lowest rates of prostate cancer. Interestingly, when Chinese and Japanese men immigrate to the US, they have an increased risk and mortality rate from prostate cancer, when compared to their native populations. In Japan, the incidence of prostate cancer has increased as Western diets and lifestyles have been adopted.

[mondo joe]

98. Similar rates? TWICE the number as in the US?

Please attach some verifiable numbers to your claims.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

100. Not my claims, but here goes......

1: Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2005 May;14(5):1257-61. Related Articles, Links


CYP3A43 Pro(340)Ala polymorphism and prostate cancer risk in African Americans and Caucasians.

Stone A, Ratnasinghe LD, Emerson GL, Modali R, Lehman T, Runnells G, Carroll A, Carter W, Barnhart S, Rasheed AA, Greene G, Johnson DE, Ambrosone CB, Kadlubar FF, Lang NP.

Division of Molecular Epidemiology, National Center for Toxicological Research, Jefferson, AR, USA. [e-mail]

The human cytochrome P450 3A subfamily of enzymes is involved in the metabolism of steroid hormones, carcinogens, and many drugs. A cytosine-to-guanine polymorphism in CYP3A43 results in a proline-to-alanine substitution at codon 340. Although the functional significance of this polymorphism is unknown, we postulate that the substitution of proline, an alpha-imino acid, with alanine, an amino acid, could be of biochemical significance. In a case-control study with 490 incident prostate cancer cases (124 African Americans and 358 Caucasians) and 494 controls (167 African Americans and 319 Caucasians), we examined the association between CYP3A43 Pro(340)Ala polymorphism and prostate cancer risk. When all subjects were considered, there was a 3-fold increase in risk of prostate cancer among individuals with the CYP3A43-Ala/Ala genotype (odds ratio, 3.0; 95% confidence interval, 1.2-7.2) compared with those with the CYP3A43-Pro/Pro genotype after adjusting for age, race, and smoking. The prevalence of the polymorphism was significantly higher in African Americans than Caucasians (45% versus 13%). In African Americans, there was a 2.6-fold increase in prostate cancer risk among individuals with the CYP3A43-Ala/Ala genotype (odds ratio, 2.6; 95% confidence interval, 1.0-7.0) compared with those with the CYP3A43-Pro/Pro genotype. Among Caucasians, the small number of homozygotes precluded computing risk estimates; there were only three individuals with the CYP3A43-Ala/Ala genotype. Our results suggest that the CYP3A43-Pro(340)Ala polymorphism contributes to prostate cancer risk.

PMID: 15894682

[mondo joe]

101. - delete -

[mondo joe]

103. That fails to address the question.

Your claim is that if you look to other cultures with different diets, including Japan, you'll see less depression.

It is then pointed out to you that the suicide rate in Japan is DRAMATICALLY higher than the US.

So you suggest that's because of a more western diet - and say cancer rate should be similar.

But is the cancer rate anything near as dramatic?

If the diet is the cause of depression, how could a Japanese diet - even a Westernized one - result in a suicide rate HIGHER than the US?

Are the Japanese eating more US food than the US???

[HysteryDiagnosis]

105. Are the Japanese eating more US food than the US???

Are they comitting suicide because of depression, or something else.


http://forum.japantoday.com/m_16443/mpage_2/tm.htm#465417
>>number of people who committed suicide in 2004 surpassed 30,000 for the seventh year in a row, although the figure slightly dropped from the previous year, the National Police Agency (NPA) said on Thursday.
Nearly half of those in their 50s killed themselves for "economic reasons," reflecting the hardships middle-aged and elderly people are experiencing due to the sluggish economy.
In 2004, 32,325 people committed suicide, down 2,102, or 6.1 percent, from the previous year, the NPA's survey showed.
Of them, 23,272 were men and 9,053 were women.
By age, those in their 60s or over topped the list with 10,994, followed by those in their 50s at 7,772 and those in the 40s at 5,102.
Of the people who committed suicide in their 50s, 2,864 left suicide notes.
A total of 1,341 wrote that economic hardships forced them to commit suicide. Of the total number, 14,786 committed suicide because of health problems. The number of suicides reached a record 34,427 in 2003.<<



http://www.mcmanweb.com/mood_riddle.htm

According to the World Bank, the average Nigerian earns $300 a year and has a life expectancy of 45.3 years. Nearly six percent of the young female population there has HIV, only 7.1 in a thousand has a computer, electricity and other services are luxuries, and the country is drowning in $31.1 billion of debt. Yet, apparently, the Nigerians are onto something. In 2003, a World Values Survey of more then 65 countries ranked Nigeria number one in terms of happiness.

That finding, apparently, was no fluke. In June 2004, a major World Health Organization survey of 14 countries and two Chinese cities found those impoverished but exuberant Nigerians putting the affluent but angst-ridden Americans and Europeans to shame with a 12-month prevalence of mood disorders of 0.8 percent, far less than any of the surveyed nations. The US had the dubious distinction of leading the pack at 9.6, while Shanghai clocked in at 1.7, Beijing 2.5, Japan 3.1 and the European nations ranged from 3.6 for Germany to 9.1 for the Ukraine.

The WHO Survey was led by Ronald Kessler PhD of Harvard, who was the principal investigator of the ground-breaking US National Comorbidity Survey of 1991-1992 and its follow-ups, as well as the director of various other WHO population studies. Nigeria was the only African nation surveyed. The two Latin American nations in the study and Lebanon had far more in common with the European nations than with either Nigeria or the Asian populations. Other survey findings documented Americans out in front by a wide margin in anxiety disorders (at 18.2 percent compared to the second place French at 12 percent) and number two in substance use (3.8 percent compared to 6.4 percent for the Ukrainians).

In all, 26.4 percent of Americans had a mental illness over the past 12 months - 7.7 in the serious category and 9.4 percent moderate - outpacing second place Ukraine by nearly six points. The one-third serious mental illness to total mental illness ratio held steady across all nations. Other European totals ranged from 8.2 percent Italy to 18.4 percent France. Japan finished at 8.8 and Nigeria and Shanghai brought up the rear at 4.7 and 4.3, respectively.

[mondo joe]

106. Are you unprepared to argue your thesis?

You can just say so. You don't need to keep throwing unconnected footnotes out there.

You can't even decide why the suicides are occuring - first it's the westernized diet, then it's economic reasons.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

110. Rates of depression in Taiwan, Korea, Japan and elsewhere are

lower than in America. If you don't like that fact, then ignore it.

If I said said that suicide rates were lower in Japan then I retract it. Fact remains, cultures that eat diets rich in seafood have far lower levels of neurological disorders of all types. Period.


http://www.holology.com/suicide.html
Japan

Japan is known for its centuries of suicide in tradition. From hara-kiri ceremonial self-disemboweling to kamikaze warriors flying their aircraft into American warships during World War II. During that same war on the island of Saipan hundreds of trapped Japanese committed mass suicide rather than surrender to the invading American forces. Today the Japanese have found another, more insidious way to kill themselves but this method is not limited to a single person or group but rather the entire culture collectively. Japan's population is aging rapidly while birth rates are constantly about the lowest in the world, now estimated at 1.2 per couple. Keep in mind 2.2 children per two persons is needed to maintain a stable population size. This rate is one third of what it was before 1950. Government efforts to rectify this seemingly inexorable slide into extinction, such as paying new mothers cash benefits, have only met with failure. High costs financially, socially and in time and effort required for raising children consistently top the list of reasons for abstaining from reproduction. Many Japanese wives remain virgins because of a male dominated cultural that disconnects love, sex and reproduction.

[mondo joe]

111. Thanks. Source for rates of depression please.

Thanks.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

114. Note the clause (past 20 years)... and think about it.

1: CNS Spectr. 2004 Jun;9(6 Suppl 4):6-13. Related Articles, Links
Transcultural issues in mood and anxiety disorders: a focus on Japan.

Radford MH.

Department of Behavioral Science, Hokkaido University, Sapporo, Japan. [e-mail]

Accurate comparisons of the prevalence of psychiatric disorders across Eastern and Western cultures are difficult and limited by methodological problems. Nevertheless, using standardized diagnostic and evaluation techniques, recent surveys have suggested that depression and anxiety disorders exist in all countries and cultures examined thus far, although variations in the prevalence rates and symptomatology may exist. This article discusses the influence and impact that culture can have on recognizing and treating mood and anxiety disorders, with a particular focus on Japan. Over the last 20 years, studies have consistently reported an increase in mental illness in Japan, especially symptoms of depression and anxiety. While such symptoms have had an adaptive cultural role in the past, current social and economic changes in Japan have turned any adaptive advantage into a potentially significant disadvantage, with a major impact on the capacity of individuals to function adequately. The situation is compounded by the fact that Japanese patients are reluctant to openly discuss disturbances of mood, since these are considered to be indicative of personal weakness rather than treatable medical conditions. Reluctance to discuss personal mental health hinders timely recognition and appropriate treatment.

PMID: 15181380

Now.... take a look at these and decide for yourself. Besides their economy being shit, they have altered their traditional diets (many not all) and possibly are now (in the last 20 years) paying the price.

1: Hamazaki K, Itomura M, Huan M, Nishizawa H, Sawazaki S, Tanouchi M, Watanabe S, Hamazaki T, Terasawa K, Yazawa K. Related Articles, Links
Effect of omega-3 fatty acid-containing phospholipids on blood catecholamine concentrations in healthy volunteers: a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind trial.
Nutrition. 2005 Jun;21(6):705-10.
PMID: 15925295

2: Peet M, Stokes C. Related Articles, Links
Omega-3 fatty acids in the treatment of psychiatric disorders.
Drugs. 2005;65(8):1051-9.
PMID: 15907142

3: Moyad MA. Related Articles, Links
An introduction to dietary/supplemental omega-3 fatty acids for general health and prevention: part II.
Urol Oncol. 2005 Jan-Feb;23(1):36-48.
PMID: 15885582

4: Moyad MA. Related Articles, Links
An introduction to dietary/supplemental omega-3 fatty acids for general health and prevention: part I.
Urol Oncol. 2005 Jan-Feb;23(1):28-35.
PMID: 15885581

5: Young G, Conquer J. Related Articles, Links
Omega-3 fatty acids and neuropsychiatric disorders.
Reprod Nutr Dev. 2005 Jan-Feb;45(1):1-28.
PMID: 15865053

6: Ohara K. Related Articles, Links

Seishin Shinkeigaku Zasshi. 2005;107(2):118-26. Review. Japanese.
PMID: 15828266

7: Alessandri JM, Guesnet P, Vancassel S, Astorg P, Denis I, Langelier B, Aid S, Poumes-Ballihaut C, Champeil-Potokar G, Lavialle M. Related Articles, Links
Polyunsaturated fatty acids in the central nervous system: evolution of concepts and nutritional implications throughout life.
Reprod Nutr Dev. 2004 Nov-Dec;44(6):509-38. Review.
PMID: 15762297

8: Ruzickova J, Rossmeisl M, Prazak T, Flachs P, Sponarova J, Veck M, Tvrzicka E, Bryhn M, Kopecky J. Related Articles, Links
Omega-3 PUFA of marine origin limit diet-induced obesity in mice by reducing cellularity of adipose tissue.
Lipids. 2004 Dec;39(12):1177-85. Erratum in: Lipids. 2005 Jan;40(1):115.
PMID: 15736913

9: Naliwaiko K, Araujo RL, da Fonseca RV, Castilho JC, Andreatini R, Bellissimo MI, Oliveira BH, Martins EF, Curi R, Fernandes LC, Ferraz AC. Related Articles, Links
Effects of fish oil on the central nervous system: a new potential antidepressant?
Nutr Neurosci. 2004 Apr;7(2):91-9.
PMID: 15279495

10: Kidd PM. Related Articles, Links
Bipolar disorder and cell membrane dysfunction. Progress toward integrative management.
Altern Med Rev. 2004 Jun;9(2):107-35. Review.
PMID: 15253674

11: Krieger K, Klimke A, Henning U. Related Articles, Links
Antipsychotic drugs influence transport of the beta-adrenergic antagonist <3H>-dihydroalprenolol into neuronal and blood cells.
World J Biol Psychiatry. 2004 Apr;5(2):100-6. Review.
PMID: 15179669

12: De Vriese SR, Christophe AB, Maes M. Related Articles, Links
In humans, the seasonal variation in poly-unsaturated fatty acids is related to the seasonal variation in violent suicide and serotonergic markers of violent suicide.
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 2004 Jul;71(1):13-8.
PMID: 15172679

13: Frasure-Smith N, Lesperance F, Julien P. Related Articles, Links
Major depression is associated with lower omega-3 fatty acid levels in patients with recent acute coronary syndromes.
Biol Psychiatry. 2004 May 1;55(9):891-6.
PMID: 15110732

14: Covault J, Pettinati H, Moak D, Mueller T, Kranzler HR. Related Articles, Links
Association of a long-chain fatty acid-CoA ligase 4 gene polymorphism with depression and with enhanced niacin-induced dermal erythema.
Am J Med Genet B Neuropsychiatr Genet. 2004 May 15;127(1):42-7.
PMID: 15108178

15: Patten GS, Abeywardena MY. Related Articles, Links
Fish oil feeding increases gut contractility in spontaneous hypertensive rat (SHR) model.
Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2003;12 Suppl:S64.
PMID: 15023694

16: Makrides M, Crowther CA, Gibson RA, Gibson RS, Skeaff CM. Related Articles, Links
Docosahexaenoic acid and post-partum depression - is there a link?
Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2003;12 Suppl:S37.
PMID: 15023646

[Modem Butterfly]

115. If a country has a higher number of suicides than the US...

...with half the population, it's a pretty safe bet they have a high rate of depression. Usually the two go hand in hand.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

116. Check out the rates.....

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0062.htm



Why Japanese fishermen always smile
Should you consider stepping up your omega-3 intake to improve your mental state? One way to boost omega-3 in your diet would be to eat more fish, and it's interesting to note that fish-eating people have considerably lower rates of depression, compared to beef- and pork-eating ones.

For example, the incidence of depression in North America and Europe is about 10 times greater than the rate in Taiwan, where the people eat large amounts of fish. Studies carried out in the United States reveal that about 4.4 per cent of males and 8.7 per cent of females in New Haven, Connecticut suffer from depression. The rates of depression are 2.3 per cent for males and 4.9 per cent for females in Baltimore, and 2.5 per cent and 8.1 per cent in St. Louis. In contrast, rates of depression in Hong Kong, where people eat huge quantities of fish are about .71 per cent and 1.30 per cent for males and females, respectively.

In Japan, where fish consumption is even higher, depression rates are .35 per cent for males and .46 per cent for females, and in some Japanese fishing villages rates of depression have been pegged at zero!
If low omega-3 consumption contributes to both depression and coronary artery disease, then depression and atherosclerosis should be positively correlated, the exact reverse of the hypothesis that depression, as a consequence of low cholesterol, protects against heart disease. In fact, 30 years of research have shown that depression is a good PREDICTOR of heart disease AND poor survival after a heart attack (depression as a REACTION to heart disease was separated from the analysis)..

[Modem Butterfly]

118. So 32,000 Japanese who WEREN'T depressed committed suicide last year?

Really?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

121. They followed our election too closely. That would just about do it.

[Modem Butterfly]

123. Yeah, jokes about suicide are always funny

32,000 dead people make a great punchline.

:eyes:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

146. There's a tradition of denying one's strong feelings

to avoid making others feel uncomfortable.

I recall stories from G.I.s who were in the postwar Occupation, talking about Japanese civilians who would smile cheerfully when telling how their house was destroyed and half their family killed.

[elshiva]

148. Nope. Never funny.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

124. Do you remember 1929..... consider what happened on Wall

Street and consider that jumping from a building is considered suicide. Tell me how hundreds if not thousands of people developed depression overnight.

http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/9/3/284-a
The rate in middle aged men (40–54 years) was five times higher than in women, perhaps because of the association between suicide, unemployment, and economic recession.3

[Modem Butterfly]

125. This has been a trend for years...

... and anyway, the idea that stocbrokers jumped out of the windows on Wall Street in droves is an urban legend.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

128. Trends..... Estonia.

Socio economic influences. A grim outlook for the future, not the fault of the person, but of the policies and politics of their nation. Look for suicides to rise in the U.S. if the Neocons remain in power.

http://www.worldbank.org/html/extdr/hnp/hddflash/other/oth0006.html

>>Trends.

In Estonia, the long term trend of overall suicide rates between 1970-1994 has been stable with the slope of linear regression of (-0.1) and standard error of 4.12. The mean for this time period was at the level of 32 suicides per 100,000 population. Exception was the male age group between 45-54, for whom the trend has been upwards, increasing 0.7% a year. Short term but very significant fluctuations occurred between 1985 and to date.

A significant decline of 29% occurred between 1985 - 1991; and the authors of the study associate it with the Gorbatchov s strict alcohol policies, politically more liberal perestroika and glasnost period, and the surge of optimism among Baltic nations with the prospect of independence. The decline was followed by sharp rise of 42 % to higher than pre 1985 levels during the socio-economic transition period beginning in 1991.

Vulnerable Groups.

In 1992-93, the highest risk group was the male age group 35-54 (mortality rates 101.5/100,000 for 35-44, and 88.0/100,000 for 45-54 age groups). These two groups showed the most volatility in suicide rates implying highest susceptibility to the determinants of suicidal behaviour. For females the group at risk was 65 and over (mortality rate 35.5/100,000).

Rural population appears to be more vulnerable than urban population. This finding contrasts with the experience in other countries, and the authors of the study associate with the radical changes in rural lifestyle after traditionally single households were forced into collective farms in late 1940s.

Suicide rates for russian speaking population had traditionally been lower than for Estonians. In 1991, there was a crossover; and since then non-Estonians experience higher suicide rates. The most vulnerable group among non-Estonians are males 25-34 years of age.<<

[Modem Butterfly]

131. All the ingredients of depression, potentially leading to suicide

Diet alone is simply no answer to depression.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

150. An imbalance of fatty acids contributes to many inflammatory

processes in the body... it is a little known fact... balancing out omega 3's to omega 6's is a step in the right direction, using supplements proven to reduce inflammation and immune system dysregulation is another.

http://www.biopsychiatry.com/inflamdepres.htm

Activation of the inflammatory response system:
A new look at the etiopathogenesis of major depression
by
van West D, Maes M.
Clinical Research Center for Mental Health (CRC-MH),
Antwerp, Belgium.
Neuroendocrinol Lett 1999;20(1-2):11-17

ABSTRACT
Major depression is accompanied by various direct and indirect indicators of a moderate activation of the inflammatory response system (IRS). Increased production of proinflammatory cytokines, such as interleukin-1 (IL-1), IL-6 and interferon (IFNgamma), may play a crucial role in the immune and acute phase response in depression. Lower serum zinc and changes in the erythron are indirect indicators of IRS activation in depression. The reciprocal relationships between IRS activation and hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA)-axis hyperactivity, alterations in HP thyroid (HPT)-axis function and the availability of tryptophan to the brain led us to hypothesize that these neuroendocrine changes in depression are indicators of IRS activation and that a combined dysregulation of the IRS, the turnover of serotonin (5-HT) and the HPA-axis is an integral component of depression. The IRS activation model of depression provides an explanation for the psycho-social (external stress) as well as organic (internal stress) etiology of major depression. Antidepressive treatments with various antidepressive agents, including SSRIs, tricyclic and heterocyclic antidepressants, have in vivo and in vitro negative immunoregulatory effects, suggesting that their antidepressant efficacy may be attributed, in part, to their immune effects.

[Modem Butterfly]

155. Again, you're left with the Japanese problem

We have a population whose natural diet contains a great deal of omega 3 and omega 6, and yet they are experiencing an epidemic of suicides and have been for quite some time.

So maybe omega 3 causes suicide?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

171. Once again..... show me a paper or something of the sort that

says that the rates of depression in Japan are twice or four times as high as in the U.S. Read down.



http://www.oilofpisces.com/weightcontrol.html

Dieting and depression
TUCSON, ARIZONA. Low-fat diets have been widely promoted for lowering cholesterol levels, for reducing body weight, and for preventing certain types of cancer. At least one study, however, has found that although a reduction in cholesterol may reduce mortality from heart disease it may increase the incidence of fatal accidents, violent deaths, suicides, and depression. Researchers at the University of Arizona now believe that they may have found an explanation for this phenomenon. They point out that fat restriction and cholesterol-lowering drugs may change the concentrations of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) in the tissues including nerve tissue (neurons).

Fat-restricting diets usually lead to a relative increase in the intake of omega-6 PUFAs and a relative decrease in the intake of omega-3 fatty acids. This can have serious consequences inasmuch as the omega-3 fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) found in fish oils, are crucial for the proper functioning of the nervous system. Several large-scale studies have found a clear association between low blood levels of EPA and DHA and an increased risk of depression, violence and suicide; a recent study in Japan found that DHA supplementation reduced aggression among healthy Japanese students.

Epidemiologic studies have found a clear correlation between a low intake of EPA and DHA and the prevalence of depression. In two studies of population groups in the USA the incidence of depression was found to be 3.7% and 2.9%. Average intake of EPA and DHA in the USA is estimated to be about 0.1 gram per day. In two Japanese studies, on the other hand, the incidence of depression was only 0.9% and 0% and the intake of EPA plus DHA was 1.5 grams per day and 4.2 grams/day respectively. Other studies have shown that on-off dieting can produce a serious imbalance in the ratio of fatty acids and may lead to depression

The researchers conclude that an extremely low-fat diet may be counter-productive and have deleterious psychological ramifications. They stress that dietary advice regarding cholesterol reduction, weight loss, and cancer prevention should emphasize the importance of an adequate intake of omega-3 fatty acids.
Bruinsma, Kristen A. and Taren, Douglas L. Dieting, essential fatty acid intake, and depression. Nutrition Reviews, Vol. 58, April 2000, pp. 98-108 <116 references>

[Modem Butterfly]

173. More people in Japan are committing suicide than in the US in RAW NUMBERS

With less than half our population.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

175. Bullying, unemployment, social conditioning, economic woes, etc, etc.....

http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/0-9/4health/stress/aas_suicide.html


The main reason cited is illhealth but the most shocking trend is the 12% rise in people who left a note saying they killed themselves for financial reasons. Some of these are Japan's new unemployed – finding themselves out of work after decades of full employment. Business failures are blamed for 1,026 deaths.

Most suicides – more than 70% – are by men and nearly half of them are in their 40s and 50s. Commentators believe that the cultural attitude towards suicide may play a part. Unlike most countries, Japan has no moral taboo against suicide and in some circumstances it is deemed an 'honourable' act.


http://www.lclark.edu/~krauss/advwrf99/causeeffect/akikocause.html

Bullying is a common problem in every generation and every country. In Japan, it is a fairly serious social phenomenon. Actually, the amount of ijime, which means bullying in Japanese, has been decreasing; however, the bullying is getting much more sinister than before. Five years ago, it was top news for the whole year after Kiyoteru Okochi, a 13-year-old junior high school student, committed suicide to escape from being bullied by his classmates. He left his note that proved and clarified the fact that he was suffering from cruel bullying. He was often forced to soak his face into a dirty river, his bicycle was broken repeatedly and his classmates even demanded that he bring money to them every day. The amount of money that he gave to the bullies reached about ten thousand dollars (Fredman, 1995). This was not the first time that students committed suicide because of bullying. But it was the first time that Japanese media gave a lot of coverage to the matter of ijime. After that, bullying became one of the most serious subjects in Japan. People wondered why his classmates had bullied him and why he was bullied. There are many possible answers, but none of the causes is simple.

[Modem Butterfly]

177. Leading to depression, leading to suicide

You pretty much have to have your hands over your eyes and ears to claim that Japan has a very low rate of depression while they have an extremely high rate of suicide.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

178. I digress.

http://notes.edc.org/HHD/CSN/ncspres.nsf/0/05b941aa5f8b763f85256cb800664488?OpenDocument

Fatigue related depression.... that I can accept.


>>In a Health Ministry poll of nearly 12,000 workers, more than 16 percent of women and 11 percent of men said they suffered from depression, often a precursor to suicide attempts.
"I would have to say we have a mental-health crisis," said Yamazaki, who says 70 percent of his patients suffer fatigue-related depression. "Either they work too long or they have too many burdens from work."<< snip

snip>>

Government data show the average worker took only 8.8 of the allotted 18 days of vacation he or she was entitled to last year.
The epidemic of anxiety has collided with taboos against talking about it.<<
snip


>>"The social stigma is very, very strong," said Koji Nakagawa of GlaxoSmithKline P.L.C., the pharmaceutical giant. Paxil, his company's antidepressant, won government approval in 2000, nearly a decade after similar drugs became available in the United States and Europe.<<

[Modem Butterfly]

185. Why wouldn't Omega 3 work in these cases?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

189. You seem to have a reductionist view of things.... I suggest you

read here:

www.orthomed.org

and here:

www.iatrogenic.org

[HysteryDiagnosis]

179. So maybe Paxil can lead to suicide?

http://www.counterpunch.org/giombettipaxil.html


http://www.legalnewswatch.com/news_383.html
Suicidal impulses were 29 percent more common among Paxil users than among dothiepin users studied, reports The Associated Press. "Kaye said that finding was statistically insignificant and could reflect doctors' tendency to prescribe the newest drug for more serious cases. Still, he said it 'doesn't exclude the possibility' that Paxil is more risky."

[Modem Butterfly]

184. Actually, in some instances, there is a connection

Particularly with people who have been deeply depressed for some time, anti-depressants can raise the fog just enough for them to finally have the energy to kill themselves. Of course, no one is touting Paxil, or any other anti-depressant, as a cure-all for everything from high cholesterol to post-partum depression.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

188. No... that's the job of the healthy fats. Make no mistake about it.

[Modem Butterfly]

190. 32,000+ Japanese per year for the last several years say you're wrong

[HysteryDiagnosis]

172. So maybe omega 3 causes suicide?

Oh my gosh.....

1: Biol Psychiatry. 2004 Oct 1;56(7):490-6. Related Articles, Links


Suicide attempt and n-3 fatty acid levels in red blood cells: a case control study in China.

Huan M, Hamazaki K, Sun Y, Itomura M, Liu H, Kang W, Watanabe S, Terasawa K, Hamazaki T.

Division of Clinical Application , Department of Clinical Sciences, Institute of Natural Medicine, Toyama Medical and Pharmaceutical University, Sugitani, Toyama-City, Japan.

BACKGROUND: Epidemiologic studies show that low fish intake is a risk factor of suicidality; however, there are no case-control studies investigating suicide attempt risk and tissue n-3 fatty acid levels. METHODS: We recruited 100 suicide-attempt cases and another 100 control patients injured by accidents who were admitted to three hospitals affiliated with Dalian Medical University in Dalian, China. Case and control subjects were matched for age, gender, and smoking status. Those who were inebriated at the time of hospitalization were excluded. Blood was sampled immediately after admission to a hospital. Washed red blood cells (RBCs) were obtained, and the fatty acid composition of the total RBC phospholipid fraction was analyzed by gas chromatography. RESULTS: Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) levels in RBC in the case subjects were significantly lower than those of the control subjects (.74 +/-.52% vs. 1.06 +/-.62%, p <.0001). When the highest and lowest quartiles of EPA in RBC were compared, the odds ratios of suicide attempt was.12 in the highest quartile (95% confidence interval:.04-.36, p for trend =.0001) after adjustment for possible confounding factors CONCLUSIONS: Our findings suggest that low n-3 fatty acid levels in tissues were a risk factor of suicide attempt. Further studies including intervention with fish oil are warranted.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Controlled Clinical Trial

PMID: 15450784

[HysteryDiagnosis]

174. Check this out.... it should clear things up.

Donna, 26, has been living with manic depressive illness for 10 years. During her manic periods, which could last between two weeks and five months, Donna experienced "a natural high." Although she felt very capable, and could get by with very little sleep, she was often self-destructively impulsive. She has only recently sought treatment.

Dr. Joseph Hibbeln is a psychiatrist, lipid biologist and chief of the outpatient clinic at the National Institute on Alcohol and Alcohol Abuse, part of the National Institutes of Health. He studied epidemiological data about the rates of diseases and average diets in different parts of the world, and learned of an astonishing link between Omega 3 fatty acids in our diet, and mood disorders like manic depression and depression. Dr. Hibbeln found that diets high in fish were very strongly correlated with freedom from depression.

We eat very differently from our ancestors over the last two to three million years, who consumed far less saturated fats and much more Omega 3 unsaturated fatty acids, which occur in leafy green vegetables and fish. In the last hundred years we've seen a radical increase in coronary heart disease, commonly understood to be linked to dietary changes.

Dr. Hibbeln attributes the parallel increase in depression to a dietary lack of Omega 3 fatty acids. He cites a recent study of unstable bipolar patients, just discharged from the hospital. In the group receiving a placebo, eight out of fifteen relapsed, but in the group receiving the Omega 3 fatty acids, only one out of fifteen relapsed. (Both groups were on common antidepressant drugs.) Dr. Hibbeln finds that other epidemiological studies show a link between high fish consumption and a low incidence of post-partum depression.

He notes that infant formulas in the U.S. are very low in the Omega 3 fatty acids. Since the fatty acids are selectively depleted from the brain by alcoholism, their lack may worsen other disorders in alcoholics. He recommends substituting olive oil for corn and soy oil, and eating fish every one or two days. It should be baked, broiled, poached, but not fried. The highest food source of Omega 3 fatty acids is caviar, with sardines coming in second. Mackerel, halibut, and salmon are all good sources.

For more information, Dr. Hibbeln suggests the book The Omega Plan, by Artemis Simopoulos, published by Harper Collins.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

162. I agree with you...

nutrients such as Omega 3s and Bs are crucial for mental health.

And when I began suffering from a bout of depression I sought out those alternative therapies for help, including St. John's Wort, acupuncture, meditation and yoga.

I stuck with that program for two years -- and stuck with it another six months even after my depression had turned into a major episode.

When I got suicidal, I decided it was finally time to bring on the big guns and went for Celexa. Within two weeks my depression had lifted significantly, and within three months it was all but gone.

My strong belief in sticking with alternative therapies almost cost me my life. Now I choose to take a completely balanced approach towards my health: holistic if at all possible, western when neccessary.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

176. No... diet alone is not.... hormonal support, immune system regulation

and modulation, and proper supplementation guided by a trained professional is often needed.

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-040.shtml
Depression
Updated: 05/29/2003

Who Is Affected
Description
Causes
Treatment
Medication
Nutrition
Supplements
Hormone Replacement
Vitamins and Minerals
Lifestyle
Summary

[HysteryDiagnosis]

96. In fact, the Japanese are committing suicide in appalling numbers

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=35310


Prozac of the Sea
Provided by Psychology Today


It's the one nagging drawback to the low-cholesterol bandwagon (besides having to give up cheese omelets, of course). For all the benefits that cutting cholesterol bestows on the heart, researchers have linked such diets to higher rates of depression and suicide.

A few studies, though, find no connection between cholesterol and mood. And the explanation may lie in the type of polyunsaturated fat we eat, rather than cholesterol itself.

"When your doctor tells you to lower cholesterol, you usually lower your fat intake," observes Joseph Hibbeln, M.D., a psychiatrist at the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism. Trouble is, a low-fat diet can deprive us of some fats, called essential fatty acids, that are required to keep our nervous and immune systems healthy. One of these is docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), an important component of brain cell membranes.

While our bodies can synthesize most fats, we must obtain essential fatty acids like DHA from food. Fish is an especially rich source of DHA, a type of omega-3 polyunsaturated fat.

But it's not simply the amount of omega-3 in our diet that matters to our brains, Hibbeln suggests in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (Vol. 62, No. 1). What may be important for good mental health is the amount of omega-3 relative to a related fat, omega-6, that is found in corn and soybean oil. Too much omega-6 in our bodies, in tandem with too little omega-3, could increase our risk of depression. If that's the case, cholesterol may merely be an innocent bystander.

It would also mean that eating omega-3-laden fish and curbing our intake of omega-6 sources might actually help protect us from depression and suicide. Indeed, in countries where folks eat lots of fish, like Taiwan and Japan, the depression rate runs 10 times lower than in North America. And when cholesterol and fat were lowered in one study by replacing animal fat with fish, depression improved rather than worsened. But in most cholesterol studies, people replace animal fats with corn oil, which the body cannot convert to DHA.

Hibbeln stresses he's not advocating that anyone change their diet just yet. But a rapidly growing body of research suggests that for cardiovascular health, not all polyunsaturated fats are created equal. It might be wise to balance the amount of each variety we eat, just as we juggle the overall proportions of fats, carbohydrates, and protein in our diet. "These issues are important to the heart," says Hibbeln, "and they're probably also important to the mind."

[Modem Butterfly]

117. That doesn't explain anything about why Japan's suicide rate is so high

We know depression is directly related to suicide. Assuming diet and depression are connected, and that an American diet facilitates and/or worsens depression, wouldn't Americans have a higher suicide rate than the Japanese? And if the Japanese are actually eating worse than Americans, wouldn't we expect them to have our health problems?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

130. Americans are consuming three times more pharmaceutical

drugs than are the Japanese and account for 48% of all drug sales globally. We should have NO suicides and even less murders.

http://www.ims-global.com/insight/news_story/0103/news_story_010314.htm

North American pharmaceutical sales grew 14% to $152.8 billion, representing more than 48% of total global pharmaceutical sales in 2000. Europe also showed solid growth of 8% to $75.3 billion, becoming the world's second-largest pharmaceutical market. Japan is now the third-largest market, experiencing moderate year-over-year growth of 3%.

[Modem Butterfly]

132. No one said that

The fact remains that following your logic, we should expect Japan to have a suicide rate in line with it's population, yet they have a suicide rate which exceeds ours in sheer numbers (not simply as a percentage), with less than half our population.

Clearly diet alone is no answer to depression.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

145. Japan has had a high suicide rate throughout the modern era

It predates McDonald's, which is hardly the only thing that Japanese people eat. They still like their traditional food a lot.

If you listen to the news in Japan, it's really striking that the portion of the news that is devoted to murders in the U.S. is devoted to suicides there.

There are cultural reasons that have nothing to do with diet: strong sets of taboos on various types of emotional expression, high pressure to succeed, a morality based on not shaming one's group or family, a history of suicide as a socially acceptable way out of an impossible situation.

I remember reading a long time ago that a country's suicide rate is often inversely proportional to its murder rate, especially since extreme aggression in men can be a way of acting out depression.

[koopie57]

18. the logic is

that you probably never suffered from clinical depression or sleep deprivation or any of the ugly things some other people have to deal with. Count your blessings and continue looking at the statistics. I guarantee they don't mean crap after spending hours upon hours awake at night unable to sleep, or chasing down kids who are suicidal.

I take trazadone also, and sometimes I sleep, sometimes I don't. I went to bed at 2 a.m. and was up at 3, 4 and finally just gave up on sleeping. This is the way I live. It is no fun and I could care less what is going on in Japan.

[Modem Butterfly]

20. Do you take Trazadeone for sleep?

I take 50 mgs right at bedtime. Assuming I haven't had a lot of caffeine or am very emotionally upset, it really helps me.

[koopie57]

21. yes

I do take it for sleep, but sometimes it doesn't work. Which really is okay cuz sometimes it does and I count my blessings those nights. But I was hospitalized for depression and sleep deprivation. When I went into the hospital they treated me like I was lieing about not sleeping, when I left, they were amazed at how little I slept. I heard them talking outside my room when they were switching nurses.

[Lars39]

55. You *might* not be taking enough.

I started taking 1 1/2 pills, which is equal to 75 mg, when 50mg wasn't enough.
My prescription allows me to take 2 trazodone if needed.

I'm not a doctor, though, so please consult yours. :hug:

[Gelliebeans]

122. I agree with you

it is so easy to sit back and diagnose others when you haven't walked in their shoes.

Good luck to you. I am a non-sleeper myself but it has more to do with my physical illness than depression per se. As I have said before if I had a nickel for every person that told me to take herbs or try a diet, I would be a millionaire. :eyes:

[bettyellen]

91. asians report their emotional problems differently... there is a whole

bunch of "syndromes" that are psychsomatic, that don't occur in the west because people are more comfortable admitting emotional problems here.
there is a huge cultural problem with dealing with depression over there. you can "loose face" if someone sees you crying, children are punished or ridiculed for crying, so they learn to channel it into more acceptable problems with physical symptoms.

[Modem Butterfly]

119. So do Asian governments, for that matter

And I think that's the rub.

[KitchenWitch]

38. A question

Why do you feel the need to discount the relief the OP has gained from the use of allopathic medicinal methods. If it works, do not fix it. Obviously, the OP had probably tried a number of things, including diet and exercise before she found relief (and sleep) using a prescription drug.

Live and let live. If she were asking for advice, that is one thing, but nothing in her post indicated to me that she were seeking counsel.

[DemExpat]

14. Psychiatry gets more criticism than somatic medicine

because it is dealing with the mind, feelings, the very being of people IMO - and in my view there are too many people with negative experiences from shrinks from those of us who have lived through this and see it happening in loved ones and friends to deny the downside of pharmaceuticals.

I would never tell anyone to not take medication, but I do offer support in looking for alternatives if interested.

My brother-in-law blew his brains out while on Prozac 3 years ago, so I cannot have only a positive feeling about it, and I had very negative, almost fatal experiences on psychiatric-prescribed meds while under this care in the 80's......

Looking around me I see so very many people on ritalin and anti-D's.....they seems to be alarminingly overprescribed.

This anecdotal experience and observation is besides the very cosy relationship most medical doctors have with pharmaceutical companies....

So, while I am not anti-psychiatry, for I do see those who absolutely benefit from its help, I am very cautious and concerned about the trend to quickly medicate before other approaches are *truly* exhausted. Especially in young people.

DemEx

[steve2470]

19. ok I can't resist

I'm an MHP. That being sad, I'm no apologist or salesman for the pharma companies. Here's my take: if a client can control or eliminate their symptoms SAFELY (key word) without meds, more power to them. Some can, some cannot. However, I'd rather be safe than sorry. All it take is one "uncontrolled moment" with some clients and they are dead or someone else is dead. The better, time-tested meds work well with many clients. But again, I don't twist people's arms to get them to take meds.

[patricia92243]

22. People with untreated mental illness kill people. My brother is a

paranoid schizophrenia. If he does not take his medicine he gets violent. He has been to jail several times becasue he DID stop taking his medicine.

He is 6'4' and weighs 250 lbs. His getting violent is scary. He get delusional. He think other people are Hitler or paratroopers, and that he would be doing society a favor to "get rid" of those people.


I am just thankful we live in a time where there IS medicine he can take - instead of being chained to a wall - like in the good old days.

[H2O Man]

24. Paranoid schizophrenics

tend to be the only group of mentally ill people with an increased risk for violence against others. It is indeed important that people who suffer from this illness take their medication as prescribed.

Most other mentally ill people are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than the rest of the general population. And within the other mentally ill group is a significant segment who are at risk for doing harm to themselves, in a variety of ways.

I don't think any rational person would suggest that people with severe and persistent mental illnesses should not take medications. There remains room for discussion on the types of medications, as well as the quantities taken

Also, I think that informed people could easily conclude that far too many people who are not SPMI are prescribed medications that very well may not be necessary. Medication & case management are replacing therapy to a extent that can be cause for concern; insurance companies too often limit the options for therapy.

It's not a black and (or) white situation. To imply that it is seems irresponsible.

[Rich Hunt]

51. wonderful

So good to see a reasoned, balanced post in one of these threads.

[mopinko]

136. so it's ok to kill yourself then?

you just have to be careful about the mentally ill people who kill others? that's what it sounds like you are saying.

[H2O Man]

151. Not even close.

You said that. You own it. It has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

[mopinko]

160. that's why i asked

because of the way you put it. schizophrenics are dangerous to others, therefore they must be medicated. i think there is an obvious inference, then, that the opposite would be true. people with other diseases are not as likely to be a danger to others, so....
i inferred that that would mean it was less important, or something, for others to take meds. if that is not your point, what do you mean to imply?

[H2O Man]

165. I didn't.

The "implication" is entirely in your head. You err 100% in your interpretation.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

28. Have you seen these.. you really need to see these......

1: Med Hypotheses. 2005;64(1):142-50. Related Articles, Links


A "new-old" way of thinking about brain disorder, cerebral excitability--the fundamental property of nervous tissue.

Saugstad LF.

Department of Anatomy, Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, University of Oslo, P.O. Box 1105, Blindern, 0317 Oslo, Norway. [e-mail]

Cerebral excitability is normally distributed, and pubertal age is a distinguishing factor. The final developmental event in CNS comprising selective pruning of excitatory synapses coincides with puberty. With early puberty, excess excitation and synaptic density, we have photic susceptibility, paroxysmal EEGs, disturbed circadian rhythms, paroxysmal disorders treated with drugs lowering excitation. Manic-depressive psychosis accords with this. Migraine with paroxysmal EEG, photophobia, hemianopsia, scintillating scotomas, excess excitation in the visual system, benefits from lowering excitation. With late puberty, attenuated CNS, we have disorders in need of raising excitation to avoid breakdown of circuitry, insufficient fill-in mechanism, silent spots, subjectively experienced only--objectively verifiable psychosis: i.e., schizophrenia treated with convulsant neuroleptics. By affecting pubertal age, we affect the distribution of excitation and of post-pubertal brain disorders in accordance with their level of excitation. Excitation is equally important in chronic disorders: l'dopa adversity in Parkinsonism could be due to further lowering of excitation in patients with a deficiency, a schizophrenia-like psychosis develops. Given unavoidable adversity of anti-psychotics, and a marked rise in suicide in schizophrenic and manic-depressive since their introduction, we want to prevent the occurrence of disorders at the extremes, whether very early or late puberty. DHA normalises excitability at all levels of excitation. An adequate daily intake of DHA, before puberty as well as after, might probably reduce or eliminate a development of psychopathology. Lithium is a robust neurotropic agent, and lithiation of the drinking water could be a way of reducing suicide, homicide, violent behaviour, and drug abuse.

PMID: 15533632



1: Drugs. 2005;65(8):1051-9. Related Articles, Links


Omega-3 fatty acids in the treatment of psychiatric disorders.

Peet M, Stokes C.

Swallownest Court Hospital, Doncaster and South Humber Healthcare NHS Trust, Sheffield, UK. [e-mail]

The importance of omega-3 fatty acids for physical health is now well recognised and there is increasing evidence that omega-3 fatty acids may also be important to mental health. The two main omega-3 fatty acids in fish oil, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) have important biological functions in the CNS. DHA is a major structural component of neuronal membranes, and changing the fatty acid composition of neuronal membranes leads to functional changes in the activity of receptors and other proteins embedded in the membrane phospholipid. EPA has important physiological functions that can affect neuronal activity. Epidemiological studies indicate an association between depression and low dietary intake of omega-3 fatty acids, and biochemical studies have shown reduced levels of omega-3 fatty acids in red blood cell membranes in both depressive and schizophrenic patients.Five of six double-blind, placebo-controlled trials in schizophrenia, and four of six such trials in depression, have reported therapeutic benefit from omega-3 fatty acids in either the primary or secondary statistical analysis, particularly when EPA is added on to existing psychotropic medication. Individual clinical trials have suggested benefits of EPA treatment in borderline personality disorder and of combined omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acid treatment for attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder. The evidence to date supports the adjunctive use of omega-3 fatty acids in the management of treatment unresponsive depression and schizophrenia. As these conditions are associated with increased risk of coronary heart disease and diabetes mellitus, omega-3 fatty acids should also benefit the physical state of these patients. However, as the clinical research evidence is preliminary, large, and definitive randomised controlled trials similar to those required for the licensing of any new pharmacological treatment are needed.

PMID: 15907142

1: Reprod Nutr Dev. 2005 Jan-Feb;45(1):1-28. Related Articles, Links


Omega-3 fatty acids and neuropsychiatric disorders.

Young G, Conquer J.

Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario, Canada.

Epidemiological evidence suggests that dietary consumption of the long chain omega-3 fatty acids eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), commonly found in fish or fish oil, may modify the risk for certain neuropsychiatric disorders. As evidence, decreased blood levels of omega-3 fatty acids have been associated with several neuropsychiatric conditions, including Attention Deficit (Hyperactivity) Disorder, Alzheimer's Disease, Schizophrenia and Depression. Supplementation studies, using individual or combination omega-3 fatty acids, suggest the possibility for decreased symptoms associated with some of these conditions. Thus far, however, the benefits of supplementation, in terms of decreasing disease risk and/or aiding in symptom management, are not clear and more research is needed. The reasons for blood fatty acid alterations in these disorders are not known, nor are the potential mechanisms by which omega-3 fatty acids may function in normal neuronal activity and neuropsychiatric disease prevention and/or treatment. It is clear, however, that DHA is the predominant n-3 fatty acid found in the brain and that EPA plays an important role as an anti-inflammatory precursor. Both DHA and EPA can be linked with many aspects of neural function, including neurotransmission, membrane fluidity, ion channel and enzyme regulation and gene expression. This review summarizes the knowledge in terms of dietary omega-3 fatty acid intake and metabolism, as well as evidence pointing to potential mechanisms of omega-3 fatty acids in normal brain functioning, development of neuropsychiatric disorders and efficacy of omega-3 fatty acid supplementation in terms of symptom management.

PMID: 15865053

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. I also have a sibling who is schizophrenic

She is a completely different person on meds. Shortly before she was diagnosed, the hospital that diagnosed and treated her had not medicated schizophrenics. She was one of the first patients they treated with meds. And even her psychiatrists were stunned by how well the meds worked for her. That was 25 years ago. She has been able to live a reasonably 'normal' life, has friends, is happy and as long as they don't change her meds, she is not dellusional or psychotic. We do have to monitor her behavior and her meds need to be adjusted once every couple years. And she is unable to work. But if you met her, you would have no idea she is seriously mentally ill.

My family is incredibly grateful to modern psychiatry and medications. Sure there is a problem with overmedication, but over my dead body would I ever allow that hysteria to take my sister's meds away.

[6000eliot]

72. My brother has the same thing

When he is on his medication, he can lead a relatively satisfying life, but if he stops taking it, he reverts back to hearing voices and is miserable. Even if it "masks" the symptoms, I'll take it for his happiness.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. Does he resist taking his meds?

My sister does. Her doctors tell us that is part of the disease, being in denial of how serious it is.

And my sister is not violent. She has attempted suicide because of the voices. But she has never tried to hurt anyone other than herself. Her doctors told us that only about 5% of schizophrenics are dangerous or violent. They said patients with bi-polar disorders are more likely to be violent than schizophrenics.

[6000eliot]

112. My brother isn't violent

He may harm himself, if anybody. Like a lot of schizophrenics, he sometimes goes off his medication when he is feeling better, but he doesn't resist it per se.

[zippy890]

23. Mental illness is a serious disease

and cannot be cured by nutritional supplements.

Several years ago L-Tryptophan (an amino acid I believe) was widely touted as helping with sleep disorders and depression. However, after some people died while taking, it was found to have a toxic effect on blood, people died because of too much of this 'natural supplementing their blood.

Keep in mind that supplements are not tested by the FDA in their efficacy against mental illness.

I don't dispute that milder forms of depression can sometimes be helped with certain supplements. But there are no miracles here, and to lead someone to believe they do not have to seek professional help if they are suffering from depression is doing more harm than good.

Good post Modem Butterfly, thank you. If I could borrow your analogy, would people tell someone with diabetes that they don't need medicine?

psychiatry is an imperfect science, and oftentimes it takes an enormous amount of painful trial and error with different meds, many of them with troublesome side effects. The process may also involve changing doctors to find one with the best approach for a particular person's problems.

People suffering from depression need support and encouragement to keep going to the doctor, to keep trying because the medications DO work, and it is absolutely amazing the difference they can make in your life and to the lives of people around you.


A good book about how Depression should be treated as a disease
i]Against Depression by Peter D. Kramer


ps. if you want to talk about multi-billion dollar industries making money on a lot of unproven or hyped-up claims - look at the vitamin/natural remedy industry.

[eShirl]

26. regarding L-tryptophan

"Several years ago L-Tryptophan (an amino acid I believe) was widely touted as helping with sleep disorders and depression. However, after some people died while taking, it was found to have a toxic effect on blood, people died because of too much of this 'natural supplementing their blood."

Actually the problem with L-tryptophan was that it was being contaminated during the manufacturing process in one or some (but certainly not all) manufacturing facilities. Now it is available only by prescription, apparently to ensure it comes frm an uncontaminated source. (In fact, one can now buy an OTC product, 5-HTP, which is actually one step closer to seratonin than L-tryptophan.)

[Jackpine Radical]

69. I think it was one batch of l-tryptophan, and I think

the drug companies leapt on a chance to kill it because they didn't like the competition from a non-patent, non-prescription nutritional supplement that obviated the need for SSRIs in some people.

[KittyWampus]

25. Thanks, MB. My Two Bros Are P.Schizo. Without Meds. They'd Lose It

on the other hand.

Modern Psychiatry depends almost soley on medication to suppress certain symptoms.

There is almost NO behavioral modification therapy unless you have the money and can find one of the few doctors who realise we aren't just machines processing chemicals.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

31. Link from previous post....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3950302&mesg_id=3950654

[mopinko]

139. i think you are wrong, there,

i have been through this stuff in my family, and actually it was very hard to even get a diagnosis and medical treatment. my bipolar kid spend a year and a half telling her therapist that she just had an evil mother. by the time she admitted cutting herself, any part of her body that did not show was covered with cuts and scars. at this time, she sees a shrink for meds for 30 minutes every other month. she sees her tdoc every other week, social worker for 45 min weekly, plus 1/2 hour group. all of the "pill pushers" that we have dealt with insisted on adequate therapy.
insurance and all is an issue that distorts this, but just passing out pills is not considered proper care anywhere i know of.

[katinmn]

27. I agree, and I also think that direct-to-consumer advertising by pharmas

should be banned.

Rather than telling people in a 30 or 60 second TV commercial that all their problems will go away with a pill, there should be massive numbers of PSAs telling people with depression, as well as their partners, their parents, caregivers and others to seek help and where to start.

Medication without pysch therapy can be harmful to some.

[skooooo]

33. Public service announcements..

..would be great. While I think that, in the balance, pharm. advertising is probably a bad thing, some of the commercials have undoubtedly caused some people with depression to talk to their doctor about it. In that way, they probably have had at least some good impact - to bad that the only impetus to inform people about mental health is capitalism. What if the government really cared enough to broadcast things that might be helpful to people for the sake of helping them?

[KitchenWitch]

34. Thank you for posting this

Members of many groups, whether religious or 12 step groups, attempt to practice medicine without a license by telling their members that all they need is said religion or 12 step group to solve their mental health problems. I have personally known people who have attempted/committed suicide due to advice from such misinformed individuals.

Mental illness is no different from physical illness. It is illness and needs to be treated. The only difference is the stigma society attaches to it, which needs to STOP, before more people die at their own hands.

[undergroundpanther]

36. Meds or not to meds

Meds is a PERSONAL issue

I have no problem with meds if they help.

BUT at the same time big oharma is not honest all the time.The New Freedom Commission is baasically psych abuse on a national scale.And that is scary.

Now the our culture has always shot the messenger hated vitims and glorified bullies. This causes distress.Life in an authoriotarian mindfuck causes distress. Our culture is sicktoo.Because what is culture made of ? Individuals.


The problem of mental illness is not simple boppsychiatry alone. It's a mixed issue.Meds help some others get nothing from meds.

People attack psychiatry for different reasons,everyone has thier own expoerinces. All stories must be heard to find a balance. And that balance has to be found by each person.The biomedical mode;l is dominating because it's easier and cheaper and very profitable and does have a crowd control component. Likewise talk alone can't always take away the scars in a tramatized brain causing profound depression..or sort out the mystery of schizoprenia.
But REAL LIFE Human rights abuses, deaths, torture by"professionals" exists it's happening, and some people have faced real harm caused by meds and treatments.This fear and experinces is a legit reason to attack a very profitable too powerful profession aiming to test everyone and force them to take drugs they might not want or need in the USA because of a myth called'normal' and a game called behave,be somebody or else, and be apppropriate and be like everyone else..

Nobody is gonna take away your meds if the biopsych model is less prominant.

Criticizing the push to medicalize mental illness and force medicate peoople and test everyone, is not telling people that benifiet from meds they can't take thier prozac.

Think about it in the hospital they do not force you OFF your meds(they tinker to try to find relief). When you are a patient in the Quiet room, you are injected with meds and you have no say in the matter.Thius is forced drugging. Haldol implants are forced drugging.

To people who have lost faith im big huge powerful corporations who care more for making profit than life itself this is SCARY.

[KitchenWitch]

37. I never said that all mental illness treatment should include drugs

I just meant that mental illness is like physical illness in that treatment is often necessary to cure it or to alleviate symptoms. Whether that treatment comes in the form of drugs, cognitive behavioral therapy, or other modes is between the patient and their provider. But to go untreated because some ignorant person told them that to seek treatment was compromising their sobriety/showing signs of weakness/not christlike (or whatever the reason) can have very lasting deleterious effects, including death.

[undergroundpanther]

39. I agree

Religion is NOT therapy.

Religion kills.It's crazymaking.
And when faith in medicines becomes like a state religion it kills people too.

Religion,faith in this or that pancea to solve serious problems in individuals with complex lives in a complex cocercive sick culture as if by magick be it steps,pills or excorcism it needs to be humble and people and"professionals" alike need to accept a person's healing can take many forms some our"authority" structures might not like or prefer. For me body modification is healing..

[seabeyond]

35. i have mixed feeling with drugging for chemical differences

i feel it is abused certainly and much of the people dont need to be drugged. an easy fix for our society. i think many children are given it and i am bothered by that. they have not been tested on children. they are just learning long term effect and otehr repercussions on children. and i think it does handicap most children when they become adult.

but as i say, i have mixed feelings. i have a hard core alcoholic brother because of chemical differences in brain medicates self with alcohol. a mother committed suicide, being treated with these drugs, three different drugs, was bad. a son with add that has been suggested being drugged. i have a friend who every member of the family has eventually been put on drugs for depression and uses as a crutch.

for me this isnt black and white. totally accepting and trusting the experts.

i have a brother in ny, psychiatrist in a ny mental hospital doing this daily. i know the need for the medicine

not a simple discussion

and i see the government wants to take over deciding who in our society needs to be drugged, what children. taking that responsibility from parent

the drugs are being abused

[CBHagman]

40. Thank you, Modem Butterfly.

The last 20 years or so have seen dramatic advances in science's understanding of the brain and which methods work to treat mental illnesses. I'm ashamed to confess I was one of the people who used to be rather judgmental regarding things like post-partum depression. What I've seen and learned since then has changed my mind (and one of my closest friends worked for years with adults with chronic mental illness).

We at DU were rightly critical of Frist for trying to diagnose Terri Schiavo's condition based on a few seconds of videotape. Let's not make the same mistake ourselves regarding serious illnesses.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

42. rather judgmental regarding things like post-partum depression

1: J Affect Disord. 2002 May;69(1-3):15-29. Related Articles, Links


Seafood consumption, the DHA content of mothers' milk and prevalence rates of postpartum depression: a cross-national, ecological analysis.

Hibbeln JR.

Laboratory of Membrane Biophysics and Biochemistry, National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, National Institutes of Health, Park 5, Room 150, 12420 Parklawn Drive, Rockville, MD 20892, USA. [e-mail]

BACKGROUND: Mothers selectively transfer docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) to their fetuses to support optimal neurological development during pregnancy. Without sufficient dietary intake, mothers become depleted of DHA and may increase their risk of suffering major depressive symptoms in the postpartum period. We postulated that the DHA content of mothers' milk and seafood consumption would both predict prevalence rates of postpartum depression across countries. METHODS: Published prevalence data for postpartum depression were included that used the Edinburgh Postpartum Depression Scale (n=14532 subjects in 41 studies). These data were compared to the DHA, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and arachidonic acid (AA) content in mothers' milk and to seafood consumption rates in published reports from 23 countries. RESULTS: Higher concentrations of DHA in mothers' milk (r=-0.84, p<0.0001, n=16 countries) and greater seafood consumption (r=-0.81, p<0.0001, n=22 countries) both predicted lower prevalence rates of postpartum depression in simple and logarithmic models, respectively. The AA and EPA content of mothers' milk were unrelated to postpartum depression prevalence. LIMITATIONS: These findings do not prove that higher omega-3 status cause lower prevalence rates of postpartum depression. Data on potentially confounding factors were not uniformly available for all countries. CONCLUSIONS: Both lower DHA content in mothers' milk and lower seafood consumption were associated with higher rates of postpartum depression. These results do not appear to be an artifact of cross-national differences in well-established risk factors for postpartum depression. Interventional studies are needed to determine if omega-3 fatty acids can reduce major postpartum depressive symptoms.

PMID: 12103448

[Imagine My Surprise]

43. It depends on the severity I the case, I suppose...

I was on effexor for years. (I'm sober for 10 years, by the way) I am am practically off Effexor now (weaned down from 150mg to 37) and my creativity increased BIGTIME as soon as I took myself off of it. I did so with a PHARMASCIST'S help and ENCOURAGEMENT, too.

My short-term memory returned (I had no idea there was a problem!)and I'm much happier.

And yes, I did replace the meds with a high arobic martial art -- Krav Maga, which has even lowered my blood pressure and cholesterol levels.

Should everyone go off their meds? No.

But the more pharmacists I talk to (they know more about drugs than doctors EVER will!!) the more I am convinced of the evils of big pharma.

PS -- I think those AA jerks who tell newly sober people NOT to go into anti-depressasnts (those who need them) should be arrested!

[Rich Hunt]

52. I tried Effexor

It worked in the short term, when I had a lot of anxiety and was losing sleep. It helped me cut down on smoking, too.

I'm not sure if one should take it for ten years, however.

[DS9Voy]

90. That pharmacist

(if true) is a fool.

Should you or someone else kill themselves (or others) after he alters the doctors prescription (i.e. lowers meds, or gets people to stop taking them) he will be a world of hurt the moment someone dies and his liability in the matter is shown.

Right now he could be prosecuted under a number of felony statues just for changing a medical doctors prescription.

I would STRONGLY recommend you report him to the authorities before he gets someone seriously hurt or killed.

A pharmacist is NOT a medical doctor and has no business altering the amount of meds people are taking.

For one thing this could almost certainly be construed as practicing medicine with out a license. He has no business looking at a prescription and telling a patient "Oh your doc says you need 100mg of this? No no, what you really need is 35mg"

Secondly, he has NO idea the full details of peoples medical history and current condition is as a pharmacist. Changing the levels of psychiatric meds with out proper qualifications and knowledge of the patient can be EXTREMELY dangerous.

Third, he also has NO idea what other meds a person may be taking and filling at another pharmacy. Mixing different psychiatric meds and changing the dosages is also EXTREMELY dangerous with out proper qualifications and knowledge of the patient.

[Nobody]

44. I'm of two minds on psychiatry

On one hand I'm one of Those People, the anti-psychiatry people, on the other hand, having lived with someone suffering from bi-polar disorder and seen first hand the Jeckyll and Hyde personality changes, I recognize that there are people who really need it.

My roommate, by the way, was on drugs that made it possible to control this, but it also caused memory loss.

My anti-psychiatry views are also born of personal experience. As a 5 year old, I was too active and someone prescribed Ritalin. My mother, bless her, didn't believe in drugs for children and took me off. I did NOT have ADD or whatever today's buzzword is for a healthy active bright child who gets bored when the rest of the class can't keep up.

Skip ahead to age 8. I'm an introvert. Always have been. And scrawny. And way ahead of the rest of the class in the brains department. A perfect recipe for the role of Designated Bully Punching Bag. So to counseling I had to go. Please note that the parents were bulldozed by the school system. Their solution was this: new school, which they did try. It took a year and a half but I was making friends. Not bad for an introvert.

But this wasn't good enough for Them. They bulldozed my parents into sending me to yet another school, this one populated by juvenile delinquents and real head cases. I couldn't relate to any of them. But I did have one friend and the idiots at the school ordered me to sit with other people instead of him at lunches and on breaks. I'm an introvert, isn't it a good thing to have finally got a friend?

But noooooo. It gets worse. My education was nothing more than a sham. The teachers were shrinks, not educators, and I had no education in 7th and 8th grades. Just the constant drumbeat in my head that I had to be more outgoing, that there was something wrong with me, all that on top of the cultural stigma against the need to see any form of mental health professional.

I was also forced to do the summer program as well and have scads of counseling. All because I'm an introvert. And heavens, we can't have introverts in this country!

All during these totally tortuous two years, I asked why I needed a special school and all this counseling. I was told: "You tell me." It wasn't until years later when I finally figured it out.

When my parents at long last put their collective foot down and refused to play anymore, they transitioned me to my school again. I missed most of 8th grade, I had a two-hour ride home and had to skip the last class of the day, and I was so far behind my classmates I had to call on every smidgen of my Mensa-level IQ just to struggle. It took me until 10th grade to get caught up. Other kids in the same program dropped out of school the instant they could. I think I'm the only one who actually went on to earn a diploma instead of having to get a GED later. I was one of the youngest kids so I do have fairly accurate numbers.

I was cheated out of two years of education. The damage was done, and it took years of my own time and finding my own way that undid it.
I bear a Texas-size chip on my shoulder and I'm entitled to it.

Now get this: With this so-called "New Freedom Act" how many more kids who really don't need counseling or drugs will be forced into this. How many more kids will quit school just to escape this?

And what of kids who have a death in the family? Will they be allowed to grieve or will they be forced into drugs because they're not happy enough?

The point of all this longwindedness is this: If there is a severe problem, medications are the only way. But I will never support drugs for normal people living a normal life, experiencing the range of normal emotions.

[elehhhhna]

48. Our school has a "mentor" program--

busibody parents who take a WHOLE HALF-HALF DAY of "education" on mentoring disadvantaged kids, or kids with learning problems, etc.

My soon-to-be 6th grader is an A Honor roll student, 2 years (4th & 5th grade) elected to Student Council, a bit of a loner (her 2-years younger sister is her best friend) so one teacher recommended her for Mentoring last year because they want to "bring her out of her shell." She's quiet in class because she's ofttimes BORED. She writes and reads on a high school level and relates better to adults than kids her own age (she was elected to SC because she doesn't get into petty playground stuff, except to stand up for kids who are being picked on.) But she's "too quiet" in class. She's also a great little artist--designed the school yearbook cover. Luckily, she bonded with one of her teachers (a real sweetie--I like her too) last year and it's done her a world of good--they correspond weekly and have done so most of the school year, and are still at it.

Rant/brag over & out.

[Merope215]

142. I was like that at her age too

I always felt closer to my teachers than to the other kids when I was around that age. But I turned out fine - I ended up having plenty of friends in high school, and now I go to an Ivy League school. (I got the best of both worlds, lol.) Your kid sounds a LOT like I did between 3rd and 8th grades. I bet that once she gets to start taking more challenging classes, she'll "come out of her shell" on her own time, whatever that means, and I remember never being able to understand when I was in middle school why everyone was always trying to get me to talk so much anyway. Nothing wrong in my book with keeping to yourself and not talking when you've got nothing much to say. She sounds like a great kid. And incidentally, I still keep in touch with several of my old teachers, and they've been incredibly productive and wonderful relationships. Your daughter is lucky to have that, and she sounds like she's pretty lucky in her parents too. :)

[mondo joe]

47. Thanks MB. The anti psychiatry types here on DU are WORSE than Bill Frist.

Tragic to see so many diagnosing so many without knowing a thing about them or their health.

[seabeyond]

56. please read post #35. do i fit this type of du'er. black and white

i agree with the poster down below suggesting we create these issues into black and white. doesnt work for me. over the many years, life experiences and people i love that has been effected with this, i really cannot see it so black and white

i think there is valid and clear abuse, and lack of research, further an escalation in the future for a feel good drug

i equate me taking a puff in the morning, a chocolate bar in at night, a drink in the evening to popping a prozac. in many circumstances. i think we as a country self medicate, and i think our society has exactly created it in many ways.

i dont think it is so simple as trusting a psychiatrist to prescribe a pill.

without taking away from someones life and death battle. ir disease

i dont see it as an either , or

[Rich Hunt]

49. These threads frustrate me

I love how everything is black and white in these psychiatry threads, as if all psychiatrists are on one side, and all people who have misgivings about psychiatric drugs are on the other. Also, that some drugs work well is not a categorical defense of all psychiatric drugs.

Some people suffer from "exogenous" depression - i.e., depression caused by grief, harassment, abuse, job losses. This is not an "illness" and yet some people seem to think all "depression" is the same and needs to be treated the same.

The whole issue is more complicated than many on DU make it out to be - these threads turn into another categorical black/white shouting match.

How sad that people don't listen to one another. These threads are so stifling.

[zippy890]

120. You are so right - thank you

This issue is extremely complicated, and people should try to be open-minded, and not only read but try to understand what is being shared here.

Its not a black or white issue--thanks for pointing that out --

[lukasahero]

158. Seems to be the "message" board way

It's not just these threads, it's not just DU. What have been commonly called "discussion boards" leave little room for actual discussion.

Of course, we also live in a black and white, good and evil, with us or against world nowadays, so it's not really surprising. It is, however, extremely discouraging.

[MountainLaurel]

53. Thanks Modem

Growing up, I was taught in church that mental illness really doesn't exist, that it's all a matter of lack of faith and prayer, and that psychology is just another example of secular humanity's selfish nature. Now I knew that was all bullshit by the age of 10, by which point I had been present when one of the people I most loved in the world had a nervous breakdown in front of me and spent a couple weeks in a psychiatric facility. She was one of the most faithful and Christlike people I knew, yet she needed psychiatric help.

But I always wonder about the people who didn't know better: About the parishoner who entered a deep depression and stopped leaving the house after her daughter was killed in an accidnet: Did she get the help she needed, or did she just try to pray her way through it?

[Rich Hunt]

54. that's a moralizing guilt trip

Anyone who tells you "you're not doing enough to better yourself" under the guise of helping you is not helping you - they are attempting to control you, if only in their own minds.

"You're not trying hard enough" is the language of authoritarians. Saying it to someone who is already stressed is downright abusive.

[MountainLaurel]

58. Absolutely

And it's even more abusive when you tell people that they're committing a sin by seeking help.

[earth mom]

60. I agree with those who've posted that this is not a black and white issue.

Severely mentally ill people may...or may not need drugs. :shrug:

However, it's a fact that the greedy pharma giants are pushing meds on people that far too often DO NOT need them. Meanwhile, Alternative Medicine is dissed up one side and down the other by the medical industry so that people don't research it on their own let alone try it to see if works.

Don't knock it until you've tried it. You may be pleasantly surprised.

[mondo joe]

63. "Pharma giants" don't have the power to PUSH meds on anyone, though

they do plenty of creepy things.

But in your excitement to blame them and physicians you forgot that we the people are responsible as well. Every day in virtually every physician's office someone comes in asking for some prescription or other.

Are we an overmedicated nation? Sure.

Do we CHOOSE to overmedicate? You bet.

[earth mom]

64. How did people get the notion that popping a pill solves everything?

From the medical industry.

Meanwhile, Alternative medicine is treated with suspicion and ridicule instead of with an open mind.

[mondo joe]

65. Sorry, but I'm not willing to play victim. If we are an instant

gratification society it's because we choose to be.

Let's please take some responsibility for our own choices.

[earth mom]

67. People do want instant gratification...

and that's why they go with what the medical industry pushes instead of going against the grain and finding alternatives-especially when those alternatives have been bad mouthed up one side and down the other by the medical industry.

[mondo joe]

78. When you write "medical industry" I'm reminded of the "abortion industry"

the anti-choice people like to talk about.

[earth mom]

85. You really want to pick a fight with me don't you?

Let's see now, that's 2 different threads that you have called me a * lover, a fundie and now I'm anti abortion. Jeez you must really HATE what I'm saying about the medical industry. Yes-INDUSTRY. They are a BUSINESS that makes money off the sick. Am I getting too close to the bone or what? Or do you really own stocks in the pharma industry?

FYI-I am PRO CHOICE. And for the record, I greatly dislike fundies and *.

From the sound of YOUR posts...maybe you are talking about yourself. :eyes:

[mondo joe]

93. Sorry you're having a hard time reading. I didn't say you were a fundy

or anti choice. I said your reasoning is similar.

Since I haven't said one good thing about the pharma industry -- and in fact have said a number of negative things about them - I don't know why you'd think I'm a stock holder.

But since you're so concerned about the medical industry, tell me what you think of the "abortion industry". Do you think they give out too many abortions? Do you think they encourage abortion? Do you think they are just profiting on abortion?

[Jackpine Radical]

73. May I humbly suggest

that the medico/pharmacological establishment assumes that medications are always the best treatment for conditions such as depression, but that for many people, there are a number of equally effective alternatives, such as

Herbal remedies. Hypericum (St. Johns Wort) has proved as effective as prescription antidepressant in clinical trials, with fewer side effects.

Psychotherapy. For some types of depression, psychotherapy is more effective than meds, and results in a long-term resolution. In other cases, psychotherapy is best combined with medications in the early phases, with the meds benig tapered off.

Exercise. Physical exercise is one of the most effective ways to accomplish short-term improvements in mood.

Neurotherapy. There are now several approaches to treating depression by means of brainwave biofeedback. In one of these, the training works to rectify an imbalance in neuronal activation in the frontal lobes of depressed people. Although no large controlled studies have yet been done, initial work suggests that the approach produces long-term remediation.

Pleast take note that the big drug companies and organized psychiatry do not want to see any of these alternatives to succeed. There are few if any federal funds available for research of this sort.

[mondo joe]

77. What do you mean by "organized psychiatry"?

I'm reminded of statements about the "abortion industry".

[earth mom]

87. Beautiful Post! Thank you!

"Please take note that the big drug companies and organized psychiatry do not want to see any of these alternatives to succeed. There are few if any federal funds available for research of this sort."

:applause:

[EFerrari]

99. I think you're mixing apples and oranges.

People who stand to gain from Big Pharma, the insurance industry, even the prison industry vs. clinicians who have to work with the system they have and try to deliver treatment.

Sometimes these categories overlap, especially at the centers of funding power. Mostly, they don't -- as in the docs and therapists who are struggling to keep delivering services to real people all over the country.

Don't mistake the @sshole part for the whole. :)

[mopinko]

140. there is no alternative medicine

only proven and unproven. but herb doctors, and herb sellers are utterly unaccountable and unregulated. they protected that privilege just like all mulitbillion dollar corporations in this country do. if you still believe in this barefoot, flowers-in-your-hair crap after ephedra, you need to get your head out of your ass. this crap KILLS people directly, and indirectly, through crap like this where people who have dangerous but treatable diseases are regaled but know-nothings, until they are afraid to take medicine that can help them.

[RPM]

61. Feh - those people could be better if they wanted to be - its a decision

they just don't want to be better :sarcasm:

Honest question - please don't flame me, but, isn't this sentiment one of the tenets of Scientology?

[Endangered Specie]

68. Its not just a Tenet...

Psychiatrists/Psychiatry are the equivalent of the devil, and are frequently compared to Nazis, they also play an important role in the "history" of the universe, (according to $cientology), namely helping to commit genocide and keep the "real truth" supressed.

[stickdog]

62. An important read concerning mental health

http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/12/1710156.php

Society doesn’t allow us to talk about suicide. Fuck society. I’m going to talk about it now. Have you ever told a friend that you were thinking of killing yourself? Do you know what happens when you do? You will be told, “get a therapist.” You will be accused of blackmail. People will view it as “not normal,” and look for easy answers: substance abuse? Mental “disorders”? What does the DSM-IV book have to say in diagnosing you? The great majority of people panic at the mere suggestion of suicide: They want to wash their hands of your pain, and turn you over to the psychiatric “authorities.” If you confess suicidal ideations in the United States, you can be committed to an asylum against your will. You can’t trust anybody. And that, of course, compounds your sense of isolation, the sad understanding that nobody, absolutely nobody, is there for you or cares enough to help as you define the exact help you seek. The moment you confess you are thinking of suicide, you become an enemy to the illusions of peace of mind that others cling to desperately.

I know something about suicide. It is never a solitary crime. As Antonin Artaud once wrote about Vincent Van Gogh taking his own life: “Van Gogh was suicided by society.” I know a lot about suicide and the kind of people who choose it. Suicide is always an alteration of the social order; an assault on “normal” life, whatever that is, and the assumptions that prop up the big lies that deform our cultures. A suicide is insupportable for those who live careful, comfortable and cowardly lives although they, on some level, also detest things as they are. Suicide, when committed by the courageous, is a form of speech, a protest, as much as that of the self-immolating monks of Vietnam or the suicide bombers of postmodern times.

Do you want to know how to kill an Authentic Journalist or a revolutionary? Do you want to know how to provoke a truth-seeker and truth-teller into taking his or her own life? Play a con game on him and her: that’s how. Tell her you love her. Tell him you love him. Tell him and her that you’re different than all the dishonest people out there. Take the steps to show him and her that you are different, that you are like him and her, a truth-seeker and truth-teller. Get him or her to drop his or her guard, to open up. He or she will love you more intensely and generously than you have ever known. There is nothing he or she won’t do for you, so happy to feel, for the first time in probably a long time, that he is loved, that she is not alone. And then, when he or she are at their softest and most tender point, lightly drop the hint that it’s all been a lie. Reveal that you have successfully deceived him or her, in the very exact ways that you promised him or her with gooey eyes and poetic tones that you would never, ever, do to him or her.

That’s the first part: The suicides I have known have almost all been about love promised and not delivered. Let me be very clear: It is not the fault of the lover who could not love him or her enough. It is the fault of the entire community and culture for being unable and unwilling to support revolutionary love. The suicides I have known have mostly been in Gringolandia, where there is no support for love, where “the problem club” recruits daily, where the “self help” and addictionology industries prey on weak gringo minds selling the bullshit that a human being is a nation-state, that the human has “borders” or “boundaries” and has to “set those boundaries.” The "professionals" who peddle those inhuman theories have their fingers on the trigger, too.

There, in the United States, where, red state or blue state, it’s the same fucking fascism of cars and auto insurance, of illness and health insurance, of jobs at alienated labor, of “educations” that teach nothing except what must later be unlearned, or of unemployment, ignorance, illness, homelessness or prison, it is forbidden to love a revolutionary. If you do, if you are sincere at it, you will receive no support from your “friends” or “community.” If you love someone like Gary, like Abbie, like Ellen, like Jeff, someone intense and truth-telling and truth-seeking, you, too, will become isolated. You cannot find support. He or she is too overwhelming for you to handle by yourself, but nobody will help you. In fact, they may hypocritically blame you after he or she has checked out. They… the people who are really to blame, will turn on you for having followed their advice, and they will blame you. Think about that.

A hero simply loves more and gives more than an ordinary man or woman: and so do those who choose to love him and her while suffering the slings and arrows of the problem club and the jealous non-support of the slow class all around them. That’s the first part of the story. But there is a second part, beyond the impossibility of loving a true revolutionary under capitalism. There is something else that assures a suicide when combined with deception and it is very much related to capitalism: The person looking down the barrel of the gun must lose his or her sense of place. That usually happens economically: the loss of a job or income, the loss of a home.

So, here’s my advice for you if you worry that another truth-teller is about to bite down on the gun barrel: don’t you dare tell him or her to get a therapist. For all you know, he or she already has one but can’t even tell you that because it will harm your faith in him or her, and cause society to paint him or her as a freak. Don’t do it. Therapists lose patients, too. Just ask one. They don't have the answers. Those who tell you they do are dangerous. Chances are that your suicidal friend has thought about turning himself or herself in to the therapeutic authorities already and have their own reasons for either doing it or not doing it. So what can you do? What could you have done for Gary? Just two things: Send him money or give him love and attention as he defines his desires: not as you define “what is good for him ,” but as he defines it.

[smirkymonkey]

82. Thanks for that!

It really hit a nerve - my sister always says (I have struggled w/ depression) "if you ever kill yourself, I will hate you forever."

I relate to the existential aspect of this article - that it is not always a act of cowardice, but sometimes one of heroism - not giving in to the lie.

[Bridget Burke]

66. I'm all for positive thinking....

Diet, exercise, etc. Hey--aromatherapy if it sounds like fun!

But sometimes you need professional help. And sometimes the professional will prescribe drugs. Drugs should not be 100% of the therapy & your needs may change over time.

[EFerrari]

70. Some facts about accessing mental health care in the US

The first Surgeon General’s Report on Mental Health was in 2000. “Mental health is fundamental to health.”

The President’s New Freedom Commission on Mental Health did a two year study (2002-2004) which concluded that mental health care is not sufficiently accessible; that treatment is fragmented; that research technology is not delivered to mental health clients.

(How much was spent on this study? Most families who live with mental illness could have told them this in no time at all and for free . . .)


The mentally ill are 7X more likely to be victims of a crime.

560,000 inmates of psychiatric institutions in 1955
100,000 in 1989
Community care did not materialize

There was a corresponding increase in the US jail population:

In 1955: 158,394. Jumped to 444,584.

The United States has the world’s highest incarceration rate, with 2.3 % of the adult population behind bars.

In San Francisco County, the police make between 75,000 and 80,000 “psychiatric” calls a year, costing between $200. and $400. per call.

The USJD estimated that 16% of all incarcerated people in the US suffer from severe mental illness. The rate is higher for among juveniles, one in five.

According to NAMI, $100 billion a year is spent on untreated mental illness.

In the United States, untreated mental illness is a leading cause of disability, unemployment, substance abuse, homelessness, inappropriate incarceration, suicide, child neglect and abuse.


In the U.S. there are 5-10 million adults with severe mental illness, and an estimated 3-5 million children.

To put these numbers in perspective, there are 300, 000 severely mentally ill people in the US criminal justice system: there are 70,000 in hospitals.

70 - 90% of severely mentally ill people show a significant reduction in their symptoms when treated.

One of the latest trends nationwide is to cut back on the funding of substance abuse treatment, even though people with mental health problems often have their first contact with a clinician in these programs.

For every dollar spent on outpatient substance abuse treatment, seven dollars are saved on police, court, and hospital costs.

Only 1 in 2 Americans who need mental health care can access it, often only through Medicaid. As we have seen, most of these are prisoners.

In California, the world’s largest provider of mental health services (Los Angeles County Jail), half of the prison doctors who provide mental health treatment have criminal records; one third of them have substance abuse or mental health problems themselves.

At present, Congress is considering a bill which would cut 10 billion dollars from Medicaid over the next five years.

[Endangered Specie]

71. i think people should consider other methods of treatrment

before they resort to taking medecine. A saying I live by is "drugs,
only as a LAST resort".

Im not trying to blast psychology/medicine but I do believe that our current culture overuses drugs to an alarming degree. Perscription drugs are popped like they were breath mints, advertised on TV with about as much malicity as kids cereal commercials.

People need to consider alternative treatmenst (therapy, lifestyle changes, counseling etc...), before they resort to drugs. The human body is VERY complex and each persons has its own uniqueness. I can speak of personal observations of over drugging, far more than cases of 'underdrugging'.

Alot of people here look skeptically upon corporations, and the drug companies can be worse than street thug drug pushers. Be skeptical about what kind of pills you put in your body, ask questions, critisize, seek second opinoins, beware of advertising and too good to be true scenarois, dont take what you dont absolutely need!

and remember, its not just 'mental' drugs, its 'physical drugs too.

[Jackpine Radical]

75. Why are you picking on psychology?

I think most psychologists are pretty open to alternatives to drugs, particularly psychotherapy.

[Endangered Specie]

76. who said I was just picking on them...

Im talking about all fields of medicine, psychology,psychiatry,doctors,medical,over the counter, drug companies etc...

[Bridget Burke]

80. Counseling is not "alternative" treatment.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "therapy"--as an "alternative" treatment.

Good professionals consider counseling & lifestyle changes. Drugs may or may not be needed. If your "professional" is not working out, consider consulting another one.

Herbal remedies can have bad side effects. And a handful of vitamins is still just a handful of pills.

[EFerrari]

94. Well, try this on. My husband's brain is so out of whack,

that he could not benefit from talking therapy OR behavioral training until he was on the right meds.

For some people, psych meds are the keys to the kingdom, the first most basic step.

Since being on the right meds, his whole life changed and he does community service half time just because it needs doing.

[BamaBecky]

133. This is the truth! For some folks with depression, MEDS are the ONLY

cure. All decent mental health professionals know this. To say otherwise, is to announce your ignorance.
Bama

[kineneb]

144. Hear, Hear! And I am one of them.

On Depression: a 24-hour/day living hell

On Suicide: sometimes it seems the only way out of the constant pain (and for those who have never been there- severe depression can be physically painful)

On Meds: Talk therapy was helpful, but did not treat the underlying problem; the only thing that keeps me functioning is the pill I take every morning. I expect to be on paxil or something similar for the rest of my life.

On side effects: So they are there, but have no comparison to the depression. Untreated depression can cause memory loss. In my case, a total of about 10 years of my life does not exist.

Mental illness is a physical ILLNESS. You don't ever "get well," you can only manage the symptoms and try to function.

Been there, done that, did not get the t-shirt.

[BamaBecky]

134. People need to seek Professional Advice! Period, end of story!

They are licensed to decide the best course of therapy.
Bama

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

74. You're wrong.

At least that's what the voices in my head keep telling me to say to you.

O.K., you're right.

I really hate either/or thinking. Can we say that many Americans are over-medicated? I think we can say that pretty confidently. Can we say that most of them just need prayers and vitamins. Well, we could, but then we'd be pretty stupid to say so. Could prayers and vitamins help some people who have a slight, ever so slight, mineral/chemical imbalance? Perhaps. Could prayers and vitamins help those whose real problem is psychological and, therefor, really psychosomatic? Again, perhaps.

At least this is what the voices in my head keep telling me.

Me? Diagnosed OCD. Medications? Only when it gets REALLY bad (they just make me feel icky).

And, no, I don't have voices in my head . . . at least that's what they keep telling me.

[elshiva]

147. As a pyschotic/schizoaffective, "I hear voices" humor is very offensive.

Hearing voices is truly scary especially when they say that I worthless and MUST kill myself.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

149. As someone who had a grandfather who died by choking on a banana,

I find your dancing banana in your sig line hurtful. Are you intentionally trying to mock my pain?

And as someone with OCD, I find the color scheme of the gay-pride Christian flag maddening. Can you please be more sensitive to those of us who MUST have rainbow color schemes reflect a counter-clockwise movement on the color wheel.

Thanks.

[elshiva]

159. Sorry, I changed it.

:cry: Sorry about your grandfather. I apologize for my former sig line. I have changed it.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

164. I'm an ass.

I didn't realize I was dealing with such a sympathetic, kind soul. My previous post was trying to make the point that one shouldn't be so sensitive about these posts, that one can be offended by an infinite number of things since everyone has had some sort of pain in his or her life. But you are obviously a very sensitive, caring person. My grandfather didn't die eating a banana, and the color scheme really didn't bother me (much). It was my lame attempt to prove a point that sometimes people are overly sensitive. You've proved that it's a good thing that this is true.

So I'm sorry I have now made you feel bad twice. I'm sorry that you've removed the happy banana and the colorful cross from your sig. line. I'm sorry about the "voices" joke. I had no intention of hurting your feelings.

Sorry.

[elshiva]

180. You are NOT an ass. You are just someone with a unique

sense of humor. Thanks for the apology. I really was not quite sure if you were joking completely because I grew up with mentally ill folk and a lot of them have problems that many would term "silly." For instance, I DO have a friend with OCD who MUST organize things in groups of five. So, I thought the colors OCD was real. As well as the part about your grandfather because the same friend's grandfather committed suicide as did her father.

But if you do have problems do not hesitate to ask for help.
Sorry for being a jerk and all!

[Rhiannon12866]

183. My friend, elshiva, asked me about this and I assured her that it had

to be a joke. But she took it quite, quite seriously. She had already been asked to change her very impressive sig photo line-up because it was too large. She felt bad enough about that. So your post came as another slam on the same subject. You need to think before you post, since you never know the sensitivities of those who you're replying to, or if they'll get your joke. Yes, she is a caring, kind soul, and you've proved that you are, as well, by your apologetic post. I know that it meant a lot. Thanks for doing that.

Rhi :hi:

[Flowerchild73]

79. The psychiatry profession needs an overhaul

>>People who suffer from mental illness, whether it's postpartum depression or paranoid schizophrenia, will NOT just "snap out of it" if they change their diet and exercise regime or pray really hard.<<

Women with post-partum depression do not always snap out of it. You are correct, and medication should be available to them if they feel they cannot function, but something needs to be done to shine a bright light on the psychiatry profession regarding overmedicating people and their using medication as the only option for treating depression.

I believe that the brain doesn't go from being healthy to depressed overnight. Something is setting the pathways in the brain or predisposing a person to that illness. Whether that be a way of thinking or a series of traumic events that occurred in that person's life. Those areas need to be explored prior to the person popping a Zoloft or Prozac (or one of the newer SSRI's.) Because in essence, those pills do mask the underlying symptoms that triggered the problem, and unresolved will only come back again and again through that person's life.

In a lot of cases also, these medications cause a lot of side effects that make the person more unhappy than before they began them.

I don't agree with how Tom Cruise went about putting out his message but I agree with the crux of the message, which is that industry needs an overhaul. Medications do mask the underlying reasons for the depression.

[mondo joe]

89. Since when does PSYCHIATRY use "medication as the only option to treat

depression"?

[Jackpine Radical]

129. Most pschiatrists spend about 5 minutes with a new Pt

taking the "history" before prescribing an antidepressant. I put quotes around "history" because the often don't even ask about the person's major life experiences, traumas, anything like that before deciding they're dealing with a "chemical imbalance" that needs fixing with an SSRI.

[mondo joe]

135. And taking the history leads to what?

And I don't know of a single psychiatrist who spends 5 minutes taking a history.

Are you talking about taking a history of someone who has been referred by a primary care provider FOR an SSRI?

And why do you think an SSRI is only provided for "chemical imbalance"?

[Jackpine Radical]

157. Taking an adequate history leads to at least some possibility

that the Pt will get treatment appropriate to the condition.

I have had a lot of pts come in with various complaints & done a Hx & had them say nobody asked them those questions before. Questions like "were you ever subjected to physical, emotional or sexual abuse?" Instead the shrink asked about their mood, maybe gave them a Beck & told them they had a major depression, that it was a biological disorder due to a chemical imbalance in the brain & here's some fluoxetine or sertraline or something for it.

IOW the shrink totally missed the correct Dx of PTSD. They don't even want to know about PTSD because there's no pharma specific for it.

[mondo joe]

161. But that's my point - taking the history is the start of MORE than

just meds.

[marions ghost]

186. SO true...

Drugs absolutely have their place but it's easy to see that they are often over-prescribed and under-monitored for things that could be better dealt with in other ways. You are right--because of the tendency to just treat the symptoms, PTSD can go undiagnosed and untreated until it manifests in the most extreme forms, for example.

For those who feel drugs are helping them greatly that is wonderful. But for others who are not be helped by them, there may be other ways to go. This is not an "either/or" situation--go chemicals or go natural. Not everyone has to choose the same course. Why shouldn't people with depression consider all the options and find what works best for them? The studies about fish oil and depression are most interesting. What would be the harm in paying attention to nutrition even while taking the medication?

While this is a very informative discussion I think the polarization of the options is not very productive. The smartest doctors are willing to consider all the angles.

[salin]

81. I think extremes can be unhelpful on both ends

there are some who prescribe meds - with no therapy. Just the meds. For some conditions - therapy can help the individual get past/through the underlying problem. In those cases meds should be used to normalize and stabilize, while therapy is used to try to address the issue. Than for those folks if they are able to address it, they can down dose and eventually be back on an even keel without the meds.

I think folks who scoff at the need for meds are way off. I think those that believe that problems will just vanish on their own, and if they don't then it is the problem of the individual.

However those that suggest meds with nothing else - in the cases where therapy can be helpful - are also wrong, as the person is deprived of the possibility of getting well to the point of needing the meds.

Just my two cents.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

104. My meds.

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-040.shtml

Depression
Updated: 05/29/2003

Who Is Affected
Description
Causes
Treatment
Medication
Nutrition
Supplements
Hormone Replacement
Vitamins and Minerals
Lifestyle
Summary

DHEA
Progesterone
Pregnenolone
Testosterone

SAMe
St. John's Wort
5-Hydroxytryptophan
Omega-3 Fatty Acids
Ginkgo Biloba
Ginseng
Adrafinil
Phenylalanine and Tyrosine
DMAE
KH3
L-Carnitine
NADH
Thyroxine



Folic Acid
Vitamin B12
Vitamin B6
Vitamin B1
Vitamin B3
Vitamin B2
Choline
Inositol
Vitamin D
Vitamin C
Potassium




http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=35310

Prozac of the Sea
Provided by Psychology Today


It's the one nagging drawback to the low-cholesterol bandwagon (besides having to give up cheese omelets, of course). For all the benefits that cutting cholesterol bestows on the heart, researchers have linked such diets to higher rates of depression and suicide.

A few studies, though, find no connection between cholesterol and mood. And the explanation may lie in the type of polyunsaturated fat we eat, rather than cholesterol itself.

"When your doctor tells you to lower cholesterol, you usually lower your fat intake," observes Joseph Hibbeln, M.D., a psychiatrist at the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism. Trouble is, a low-fat diet can deprive us of some fats, called essential fatty acids, that are required to keep our nervous and immune systems healthy. One of these is docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), an important component of brain cell membranes.

[marions ghost]

187. JUST speculating here....

The connection between fats and mental health = could depression be increasing due to the strict adherence to low-fat diets? I know that the low-fat diet that has been pushed in America is now seen to be a contributor to many maladies. Any good sources on that question?

Thanks for the list, 4moronicyrs

[LibraLiz1973]

84. Applause.

[Stuckinthebush]

86. Thank you! Thank you!

The anti-psychiatry types are interesting. Perhaps they have had a bad experience with psychoanalysis or something, I don't know.

I've seen too many people benefit from psychiatry. Many of these people would be dead otherwise.

Psychiatrist also get a bad rap from fellow physicians, but you can bet your ass that the psychiatrist is the first person called at 2:00 am when a psychotic person is tearing up the ER.

I've had too many nights awoken by my wife's beeper to seriously entertain the notion that psychiatry is bad.

[mopinko]

92. sleep- the cia takes it more seriously than the ama

sorry to go a tad off topic but my hubby has been in the process of cracking due to sleep apnea, and you would not believe what i have been through trying to get doctors to take both his sleep troubles and his suicide threats seriously. i am apparently practicing medicine without a license for insisting that someone who can barely stay in the bed at night probably has a sore brain. when he says he is fine except that he has a crazy wife, they nod and say, i see what you mean. sleep? that's crazy talk. wishful thinking.
these people are supposed to take talk of cyanide and all seriously, but instead, they are focused on me. not on the fact that he is scaring the shit out of me, just the fact that i am scared for "no apparent reason."
this stigma is so freaking harmful. one m.d. made a big stink because i insisted that hubby at least get a name of a shrink.

trazadone has saved my life. i have had fibromyalgia since age 6. took 44 years to figure it out. it is amazing how different the world looks with just a little medicine. no, i couldn't just pull myself together. my brain has a glitch. the thing that pisses me off is the disconnect between neurology and psychiatry. i don't think these people even freaking talk to each other.

[skygazer]

102. You are absolutely right

I spent over 25 years living as an undiagnosed bipolar (manic depressive). It was sheer hell. I was predominantly depressive which doesn't mean I was just sad (which a shocking number of people think) - no, I had a constant sense of doom. I felt like I was looking down a long, dark tunnel with no end and that my entire life was going to be just like that, always. Nothing could lighten it and I didn't understand it. I thought it was me, I thought I was weak, or stupid, or pessimistic or something. I had no idea what it was.

I used to cut myself. Not to try to kill myself but in order to FEEL something, anything, that made sense. My emotions didn't make sense, they just felt like a loud, jangling confusion in my head. I'd cut and I'd cut and I wouldn't even feel the pain. But then the blood would start to run, and the knife would get sticky with it and the fog would momentarily clear and I could say, "Oh. I've cut myself. I'm bleeding. I must be alive." And sometimes that's the only way I really knew that.

25 years. Three children. Imagine raising three children like that. Every day, fighting to get out of bed, to face the day, to smile for them, to make them believe that life was good, and friendly, and joyous, when inside, you feel like dying. Suicidal, always, but never quite giving in to it (though close at times; I know well the taste of the barrel of a loaded .38, tangy, metallic, oily).

Does anyone here really think that diet and exercise and a "good outlook" was going to cure me? You think I didn't try hard enough? To anyone who really believes that, all I have to say is fuck you. I was diagnosed at 36. The meds saved my life or at least saved me from living my life in a state of misery.

Sure, they are very likely over-prescribed. Sure, the pharmaceutical companies push for doctors to prescribe them. But there are people who need them, and who would either die or wish they were dead without them.

Sorry, as you can see, this is a subject I'm somewhat passionate about. :blush:

[Gelliebeans]

127. I glad you found the help

you need with medication. I understand your passion. In fact I am having lunch next week with a family member who is going to try and sell me on alternate therepy for inflammatory bowel disease. Yes you heard it right.

I have been bombarded over the years from family and well meaning good deed doer's to try and "help me". It's as if I haven't done enough to help myself which is really strange because I see my doctor every 4 weeks.

It is frustrating when people assume that because someone has been helped with diet and excercise that all people need to investigate this further. The blame then becomes that of the patient that they aren't be responsible enough for their illness. It just pisses me off to no end when a patient who lives with an illness whether mental or physical are left to defend themselves for the courses of action they take that other's disapprove of.

I am sorry that there are people out there that want to butt in to my business but I just have learned to tell them to back off. This lunch this week is GONNA BE FUN.

GAWD I could go on and on sorry.... I just wanted to say good for you and I am truely happy you have some peace now.

[Ilsa]

108. I'm in your choir, Modem.

I think sometimes depression also affects the elderly more markedly because they have built up many difficult life experiences, and their brains may not manufacture enough dopamine or natural reuptake inhibitors (if they exist).

[Nikia]

109. Many people benefit from drugs but each case should be examined

The problem with depression, anxiety, and some other mental illnesses is that there is not a blood test or any quantitative test in which they can determine exactly what the problem is. We might know from symptoms that the person is depressed, but we don't know for sure that there is a particuliar chemical imbalance and that it pooped up randomnly and will not resolve itself without drugs. We do know that diet, physical activity, sleep, physical problems like gland malfunctions, stressful events, and thoughts all can cause changes in brain chemistry. Certainly, these issues should be examined first before the doctor perscribes medicine. If the patient is unable to work or perform daily responsibilities or is a danger to him or herself, he or she should be medicated even before the patient takes vitamins, exercises, goes to counseling, ect. If the patient does have lifestyle issues, but is not suffering in the way I described, dtrying to deal with these other issues first might be better before taking medicine. Medications don't work for everyone and some cause intolerable side effects so trying two weeks of vitamins might be as good as trying two weeks of Zoloft (or other drug) in many cases.
Why are vitamins different than other medications? All humans need certain vitamins for healthy function. Ideally, we would all eat a healthy diet, including enough vitamins. For a variety of reasons, some people do not get enough vitamins through their diet and do not regularly take supplements on their own. Comparing vitamins to medicine for someone who is chronically malnourished would be like comparing water to medicine in someone who is chronically dehydrated.
I guess a good comaprision would be cholesteral or high blood pressure medicine. Sometimes, these can be controlled without medicine by addressing and making changes to lifestyle issues if they are mild. Sometimes, other medical problems are also factors. If they are severe though or have not responded to changes, medicine can be a good thing.

[Flowerchild73]

126. What happened to a person

having confidence in themselves to overcome?

Do not human beings have amazing abilities to conquer when all odds are against them?

[mondo joe]

137. Ask someone crippled by OCD for years who is liberated by SSRIs.

They may have an answer for you.

[Flowerchild73]

163. I've asked and

>>Ask someone crippled by OCD for years who is liberated by SSRIs."
Posted by mondo joe
They may have an answer for you. <<

SSRIs are not liberating. SSRIs are confining by creating dependence. They are a crutch and they could be a deadly crutch (as no one really knows the long term effects on the individual). It is also a fallacy to believe that those medications will cure the symptoms. Often, and especially with OCD they come back over time and the medication has to keep being increased.

If it is most necessary, I say sure, go ahead take them. It should be an alternative, but it is not a liberation. Liberation is finding strength and confidence in yourself to overcome.

[Logansquare]

170. That's right diabetics, throw away that insulin!

It's a crutch man, you just need to find your strength and confidence

[mopinko]

141. you have no idea

what you are talking about.

[yowzayowzayowza]

152. Two kids fall from a tree....

ending up paralyzed in hospital beds side by side. All their scans, cat, pet, and x-ray are identical, spinal damage. Yet one has an imperceptibly smaller tear in his cord and thru persistence, faith, medication, rehabilitation and professional help manages to return to a relatively normal life. The other child with visibly identical damage, is doomed; no amount of persistence, faith, medication, rehab or professional help will return him to even a small fraction of his former self.

The same is true of psychological trauma. Two people can have totally different outcomes from the same life experience. Somehow we both fail to recognize the variability of recovery from psychological trauma as well as the potential for recovery from god given psychological defects.

For lotza folks, it they caint see it, it dont exist.

[Bridget Burke]

156. A truly confident person knows when they need help.

And their therapy might include measured use of drugs.

You are good at the glittering platitudes. Have you considered a career as a speech writer?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

143. Thank you, MB

I tried to "tough it out" through depression for months in the late 1980s, and while my depression was situational, I was unable to do anything about my situation until my brain chemicals were in their proper proportions. I knew what I had to do but could spend hours staring into space with the wheels of my mind spinning. I was tired all the time but couldn't sleep, and my job performance was suffering.

A little medication (in those pre-Prozac days), and the first result was that I could sleep. The next result was a gain in energy and motivation. All this while attending therapy twice a week for nearly a year.

Anybody who thinks depression is a character flaw or something that a person can just "snap out of" doesn't know what they're talking about. I was never suicidal, but I could have ended up there if it hadn't been for drugs and therapy (both of which were temporary measures).

[union_maid]

153. Psychopharmaceuticals have saved a lot of lives

Whether from death or from a living hell, they've made a huge difference. There are reasons why people feel differently and some of them are very understandable.

One is the fact that really appropriate drugs for depression and anxiety disorders are a relatively recent development.If you're middle aged and have had severe depression or anxiety all your adult life, chances are good that you got messed up on the wrong drugs before the right ones came along. People were hooked on tranquilizers that got them through the day....for a while. If you had a really bad episode and were hospitalized, you could wind up on anti-psychotics when no psychosis was present.

Admittedly, the above is based on just my own observations of people that I've known, but it was quite a few people down the years.Basically, the medical profession was just starting to understand about chemical imbalances but they didn't have the tools to treat them correctly yet. They have a lot more tools to work with now.
Another is the advertising. Information should be available to the public, no question. Paxil made my husband's life and relationships 100% better, and he asked to try it and that contradicts what I'm saying to a great extent, but the constant barrage of advertising of drugs to the public certainly raises red flags in most people's minds about the intentions of the pharmaceutical industry.

Still another is that there are some conditions that still can't be treated without very difficult side effects. People with schizophrenia and sever bipolar disorder sometimes have to take meds that reduce their quality of life. Usually, not as much as not taking them reduces it in the longterm, but there's a way to go in treating those disorders.

Finally, I worked in the nutraceutical industry for a decade and I can tell you that those people want to make money, too. They tout, and sometimes pay for, studies that support their hypothesis and sell their products just like pharmaceutical companies do, just on a lower budget. The CEO of a successful nutraceutical isn't living a low budget life, though.

[Doomy]

154. I was on

Ritalin when I was a kid. I had problems in school and it helped me even though later I got in trouble in high school and started hanging out with the drug crowd, mainly just weed. A lesson for young teens is to make sure you don't hang out with stoners.

[stevans_41902]

166. As far as the Japanese thing goes, I took a psychology of gender

class and we learned about studies which claim women in Japan do not go through menopause because of their diet, which is rich in fish. We also learned that the Japanese women are cultured differently than American women, and are MUCH more likely to report that they are feeling fine in order to make their husbands happy. The thing with the fish is CORRELATIONAL data, and the fact of the matter was that Japanese women DO get menopausal symptoms, they just work through them and don't feel it is appropriate to restrict the amount of work that goes into marriage/child rearing just because of how they feel. I believe it is the same thing with depression - I think the Japanese just aren't reporting being depressed because it is something to be ashamed of and kept hidden. I lived with a Japanese woman who clearly had every sign of clinical depression but felt ashamed admitting it and didn't want to "bother" a therapist with her problems.
While I think there are people who need meds for depression or other mental illnesses, I think that they often need counseling to get them through their issues and not just a prescription for Zoloft and send them on their way. All of the research I have seen also supports evidence that people who are mildly depressed will benefit just as much from regular exercise/change in diet than by taking meds.

[CitySky]

167. thanks.

I'm one for the balanced approach - what works for the individual. If medication, than medication, absolutely, no question.

But I wanted to also add the single most important factor for me personally in my ongoing management of a mood disorder - adequate and consistent SLEEP. That's been the biggie for me.

Three of my closest friends are on anti-depressants and/or mood stabilizers right now, and I am very grateful that each of them is getting the help she needs. For now, I'm managing really well with stress-managment techniques, exercise and adequate sleep, but trust me if I need to go back to medication one day I will! Depression is AWFUL; there is no reason any of us should stay sick any longer than we have to!

Everyone's situation is different. We should be grateful that we have access to a RANGE of treatments and information and alternatives. It can take a while, and frankly some hard work, to figure out what works best for you. I'm super proud of the one friend, for example, who has recently incorporated a significant amount of exercise (mostly walking) into her regimen. I know it will help her. But no way in heck would I say, "well honey, now that you're exercising, how about you cut back on those antidepressant?" Her DOCTRORS are helping her with that side of things.

And on a final note: these 3 confidantes and I are all women of faith, but none of us thinks that faith alone should "cure" our illnesses. When people who don't know what they're talking about start spouting that garbage, we IGNORE them. Faith in God doesn't negate the need for healthy boundaries with people.

That's my perspective. Peace.

[The Flaming Red Head]

182. Mental health problems are often treated (it's cheaper to push Haladol)

while other health problems (AIDS, liver disease, heart disease just for example) are ignored. You get someone in ER with no health insurance and costly physical ailments, and it is so much more economical and easier to call them crazy, and slap them on Haladol or Thorazine, and then after a 72 hour commitment to get them back on their "meds" (only psych meds, too) and then put them on the street, all cured. It happens all the time.