Incest and sexual abuse within the Amish community

[CatWoman]

Last night, or very early this morning (whichever you prefer), I watched this show on CNBC -- Cover to Cover.

There was a young Amish girl on, about 18 years old.

She had been sexually abused by two of her older brothers. When she tried to report it, her mother retaliated against her and took her to the dentist and had all of her teeth pulled out.

It appears that in the Amish community, men are the top of the food chain. Wives must obey their husbands, daughters must obey their fathers, and sisters must obey their fathers and brothers.

To think that these practices are going on, and are pretty much condoned by the community -- and yes, the church -- really blew my mind. But the mother's reaction was just plain dispicable.


I wonder if the same thing happened to her.

[whistle]

1. Yes, but the Amish women do make wonderful pies....

[radwriter0555]

2. Religious cults are strange, strange entities; I don't understand a

society that tolerates such archaic and arcane practices and excuses it in the name of gods and religion.

[Bunny]

3. What reputable dentist would pull out an entire mouthful of healthy

teeth? He (assuming it's a man) should have his license revoked.

[MountainLaurel]

5. Key word here is "reputable"

Otherwise, I can only think of someone along the lines of Dr. Mengele.

[Cleita]

27. I was wondering the same too.n/t

[Lars39]

4. And what kind of dentist would do such a thing?

An Amish dentist? :wtf:

[CatWoman]

6. yes -- it was an Amish dentist

[Bunny]

7. Was it in PA? Should be reported to the professional licensing

baord, if, in fact, he has an official dentist license.

[CatWoman]

8. Yes it was

the first time the girl tried to report the abuse, the family was living in Ohio.

They fled to Pennsylvania, where the girl went to a state trooper.

That's when the mom had her teeth taken out.

[smirkymonkey]

22. Have you ever seen their teeth???

Usually, both of them are rotten.

[NashVegas]

9. The Only Thing Worse Than Being Abused by a Family Member

Is having your mother tell you there's nothing wrong with what's going on.

[Postman]

10. It's religous fascism. Doesn't the rightwing embrace this behavior?

They have more in common with the religous fascists than do "liberals"..

"Liberals" are for freedom and liberty.

"Conservatives" are for slavery (in whatever form they could get away with be it economic or physical)

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sybylla]

12. Don't paint all Amish with this nasty brush

The Amish are as diverse a group as the Christians. Some groups are uberconservative. There is one group in my area where the women and children are not allowed to speak to non-Amish. They used to stand at the front of the store where I worked and would not even respond to me with a nod when I greeted them.

But then there are my neighbors who are very liberal by Amish standards. They have electricity, phones, tractors with rubber tires and take their developmentally handicapped children to public school for assistance.

I would hope that the Christians in this forum understand what it's like to be painted with the brush of someone else's evil.

[CatWoman]

13. Please. I am in no way saying this is prevalent in every

Amish household.

That's just ridiculous.

I was shocked to learn that this does go on, that the church condones it, and that mothers turn on their daughters for reporting it.

There was another girl on the show who had been raped by her father.

He sought outside help, and she is still with him.

Yet another young lady actually took her brothers to court. She said she did it for her 6 year old sister. The brothers not only raped her, but one of them performed oral sex on the 6 year old.

The judge went ballistic in the courtroom because he noted that all the "supporters" at the trial were there for the brothers, but no one was there to offer support to the young lady.

[sybylla]

14. Yes, that particular community's church condoned it

But to say that "the church" condones it implies it is condoned in all Amish churches and communities. It is not. Amish communities do prefer to deal with incest and rape inside the community and it is rarely reported to "English" authorities.

But what you describe is an extreme that I doubt you'd find anywhere but in the more isolated and exceedingly conservative communities that even my liberal Amish neighbors have condemned as cultish in conversations with me.

on edit: I attached my broadbrush post to your original because the the whole thread seemed to be devolving into an Amish bash based upon the hateful and extremist behavior of one family and their community, one community of thousands.

[CatWoman]

16. hey -- I report; you decide

[Evergreen Emerald]

24. supporting the rapist is not limited to Amish, unfortunately

It happens daily to rape victims all over America (coby Bryant is one example).

There was a girl in one local school who was raped by her teacher. The girl reported to police. The next day, many students came to school with Free Mr. __________ t-shirts.

There was another girl in another school who was raped by a football player. She was so vilified at school that she had to transfer to another school. It turned out that she was not the only one he raped, and he was indeed dangerous. Still, she was the one who got the brunt of it from the community--and not just students, neighbors, store owners, pastors.

Unfortunately our society is not empathic to rape victims.

[Missy M]

18. No matter which way you put it they still belong to a group...

that practices and allows such horror. I was repulsed when I read this story and can't believe that it goes on in the 21st Century. Being raped by her family and then having her teeth pulled is horrendous and they should be locked up. I wish I knew the dentist who pulled her teeth because I would turn him in a New York minute. He should not be allowed to practice dentistry.

[sybylla]

19. yeah, and Catholics belong to a group that condoned pedophilia

and Protestants belong to group that in some sects condoned racism and slavery.

Do you really think these people should receive blanket condemnation because one faction of their "group" condoned, harbored or justified the unthinkable? How is that different than saying all Blacks are criminals or all Jews are cheats or all French are assholes or...I'm sure you get the picture. I mean, after all, these people have condoned the bad behavior of their "group" by not speaking out against it and thus they deserved to all be slathered liberally in tar.

If I've drawn all the lines properly, you should see by now how prejudiced your remark sounds and I hope you'll have the good grace to retract it.

[really annoyed]

29. Why Should She?

Because she badmouthed religion (aka Christianity) here.

If you don't give Christianity the silver spoon treatment, you instantly get attacked.

[sybylla]

31. LOL, you're asking this of an atheist?

I badmouth people when they deserve it. I don't badmouth all christians just like I don't badmouth all the members of any group based upon the behavior of a few bad eggs. No group is immune to bad eggs (see my previous post).

If this were a thread on the problems with religion in general or even the Amish tenets in general, no doubt I'd be there with you. But this thread speaks to specifics acts taking place in a specific community in Pennsylvania. Generalizations are unwarranted and symptomatic of prejudice.

[Missy M]

30. I am not being prejudiced I was commenting on this...

particular story. I would have the same comment whether the group be any religion, cult, sect, government, club, neighborhood or country. Even the dentist who pulled the girls teeth was Amish so I had no choice but to aim my ire at that particular group. What happened is horrific and would have my condemnation no matter what group or individual condoned that behavior. Yes, I am prejudice against rape, incest, etc.

[sybylla]

34. Not prejudiced?

I say don't paint all Amish with this nasty brush and you say No matter which way you put it they still belong to a group that practices and allows such horror. Where is that not tarring all Amish?

Perhaps what we have here is a serious lack of knowledge. I doubt there is a state without an Amish community. They're not just in Pennsylvania, though those communities are the most famous. As I said in a previous post, they form into communities as a commonwealth with the "church" anchored by elders in the community. Their pastors are their neighbors who have asked for that position.

My neighborhood Amish community has about 35 families. There are probably 5 distinct Amish and Mennonite communities in my county alone in Wisconsin. Some communities are extremely liberal, some cultishly conservative. Among the groups that call themselves Amish, some certainly do condemn others for their cultish ways.

But the mistake is in thinking Amish is a religion. It is not. Amish is a group of sects, each defining Amish differently - just like calling yourself Protestant.

Your remarks are prejudiced and at the very least call for clarification if not retraction.

[Missy M]

39. I thought I already clarified my stand....

I did not say Amish is a religion, I called them a group. I don't have a prejudice bone in my body and rather resent that implication. I stated that I cannot condone what happened or the group that allowed it to happen. What if our government (a group of people) allowed the brothers to be castrated and the dentist to have his hands cut off. Would you condone or allow that. I know I wouldn't and neither would you. I would be screaming bloody murder!!!

[sybylla]

41. So by your reasoning

my Amish neighbors in Wisconsin should be condemned because a group of Amish in Pennsylvania "allowed" a family to take their daughter to the dentist and have her teeth yanked out for daring to say her brothers sexually abused her.

And that's not prejudiced?

[CatWoman]

45. why are you taking this so personal?

ok -- you've had good/great/positive interactions with the Amish.

Good for you.

The point of this thread to to draw attention to the other side of their lives.

I was shocked by that broadcast. It never occurred to me that such goings ons were taking place in the Amish community.

Ok, that PARTICULAR Amish community.

[sybylla]

51. There's nothing personal about it

except that I dislike it when anyone slanders with a broad brush regardless of the group being slandered, xtian/non-xtian, conservative/liberal, white/black, male/female.

And I am not shocked to see that something this horrendous happened in an Amish community. My eyes are wide open enough to know this kind of thing goes on everywhere and no group is immune.

[Blue_Roses]

15. I saw that

very sad. :(

[The Straight Story]

17. Ahhh the amish

Seen stories of late on them drinking and driving, selling drugs, et al. What I have missed seeing is the other, more positive side of them. Having lived in Ohio most my life I have been around them a lot (I lived in several areas which had a lot of amish and mennonites).

While it may appear that men are the top of the food chain there I have seen different in my own encounters. Women were leaders of the home, selling things, raising the kids, and a big part of the whole picture. Each had roles they accepted and did, as a team.

[sybylla]

20. That's my experience too.

The men and women really work together to make it all work. The women live relatively equal lives - much more so that some of the non-Amish fundies I know.

I've lived smack-dab in the middle of an Amish community for 15 years and have seen nothing even remotely negative, yet I hear "English" condeming them for all kinds of things that aren't true.

[hexola]

43. Sounds like average americans to me....

Amazing, the prejudice in this thread...

[CatWoman]

44. What "prejudice"????

could you point it out for me?

[hexola]

49. Them

Here's some...

17. Ahhh the amish

Seen stories of late on them drinking and driving, selling drugs, et al.

Them! And of course - those behaviours are caused by them being Amish right...? Everybody drinks and drives....everybody sells drugs...why make it sound there is something special about their faith that causes this?

Another poster suggests that we "Burn Down their fucking barns" - Nice, why not just lynch them?

[Yupster]

21. Is there a link for this story?

I'm having trouble believing that a dentist would agree to pull a girl's healthy teeth out.

[CatWoman]

32. you know, reading is fundamental

sorry, couldn't resist.

I plainly stated that I saw this on television.

I will, however, try to find a link for reference.

There is nothing on CNBC's web site.

[CatWoman]

38. I found a reference, as the main article is no longer available

As for the Amish, it's time to stop idolizing these "quaint" people whose secrets are finally, thankfully, being exposed. Of course there are those who are "morally righteous" and "fiscally responsible". This past Friday night, Dateline did an amazing hour long segment on the silent epidemic among the Amish ,the rape of their children by brothers, fathers, and even Bishops. These are not isolated events. One girl, Anna, was raped by her brother for 10 years. She complained to her mother and was ignored. Her mother walked in on one rape session and punished not Anna's brother, but her.

She was taken the "Amish dentist" and strapped down while he pulled all of her teeth out. Her mother calmly told her as she bled for three days straight that,"Now you won't be talking so much". She had to put a message in a bottle in an English neighbors mailbox to get outside help. She explained how this has been going on for years within Amish families.

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/10119

[ThomWV]

23. I Find It Hard To Believe

I simply would not believe it of the Amish I run into in the high hills around here (eastern mountains of West Virginia, western Maryland, and of course south western Pennsylvania. I am around those folks pretty oftne, and have been for years. It would be hard to immagine better people. They have their ways, and they certainly aren't right for everyone, but what is suggested here is simply way past anything immaginable other than that there are pods of crazies everwhere - and the fact that they are amish has nothing to do with it.

[roguevalley]

25. Patriarchies get their jollies this way and if they can use culture and

religion to keep people in line, more the merrier. I have heard of this before, Catwoman. Thanks for the post.

[CatWoman]

33. I report; you decide

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.html

[MazeRat7]

26. This isn't particularly shocking really......

Things like this and things much more horrid go on every day in the country. Pick your outrage de jour. No, I am not surprised, jaded perhaps, but not surprised.

MZr7

[agincourt]

28. They voted for shrub heavily in Ohio,

It didn't make sense to me because I thought they were pacifist, but with the type of hierarchy they believe in, now I get it. It's strangely similar to Saudi Arabia.

[noonwitch]

35. It happens in all groups, all cultures and all religions

The amish are no exception, so I wouldn't single them out as being particularly prone to it. The only way in which they are is that they live in some isolation from mainstream society. In some areas, they are closed communities. In other areas, they aren't. That increases the risks somewhat.

[Zorbuddha]

36. Humans are a gnarly bunch.

Especially in groups.

[JaneQPublic]

37. Interesting article on this topic

The author interviews several Amish women who were raped by brothers, cousins, and fathers, while their church, community, and local cops looked the other way.

==================

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.html

The Gentle People

Impressed by their piety, courts have permitted the Amish to live outside the law. But in some places, the group's ethic of forgive and forget has produced a plague of incest—and let many perpetrators go unpunished....

[CatWoman]

40. I found the transcript on MSNBC's website:

ANNOUNCER: We now continue with “Innocence Lost.”

WITT: The Amish are known for their simple dress and devout way of life. They‘re also very private and wary of the outside world. But one young Amish woman desperately longed for that world, not just to broaden her horizons but to escape, she says, a brutal reality hidden behind closed doors. Here‘s Rob Stafford.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNA SLABAUGH: I don‘t drive cars, no electricity, no indoor plumbing.

ROB STAFFORD, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Traveling through Amish country is like taking a trip back into time. And for 18-year-old Anna Slabaugh, that‘s a very painful journey. She was raised Amish but says she is now an outcast here.

SLABAUGH: They don‘t want anything to do with me.

STAFFORD: Not, she says, for something she did, but for speaking out about the terrible things that were done to her.

SLABAUGH: It just felt like I was better off dead.

STAFFORD (on camera): Anna‘s story is a story of survival, and she says she‘s telling it to help other Amish girls who are suffering in silence. They are forced, she says, to keep a dark secret that‘s existed in the Amish community for years.

SLABAUGH: It wasn‘t like you can go talk to your mom, either, because it was just—you‘re just asking for trouble. You know, Just keep your problems to yourself.

STAFFORD (voice-over): Anna‘s life wasn‘t always that way. As a young child, her mom taught her in a one-room school house. Back then, they were close and even kept secrets between themselves.

SLABAUGH: She let me read books that were off-limits.

STAFFORD: Mysteries like Nancy Drew, banned by the Amish, a religious group that lives apart from modern cultures. For a time, Anna learned to enjoy the simple things, like laughing with her mom.

SLABAUGH: Just kind of talking and having fun, you know, making a joke that nobody else got.

STAFFORD: Anna is the eighth of nine children in a family that belongs to one of the most conservative Amish groups in America, the Swartzentrubers. They have strict rules controlling every aspect of Amish life, work and dress, even down to the size of the seams on clothes and the number of buttons on a shirt. It‘s a male-dominated society, where women must obey their husbands and girls must obey their fathers and even their older brothers.

SLABAUGH: He made a dare with me.

STAFFORD: She says her oldest brother took advantage of that power.

It started when she was 11 and he was 19.

SLABAUGH: He dared me to touch him in inappropriate ways and also dared me to let him touch me. And I took up his dare.

STAFFORD (on camera): How often did he touch you?

SLABAUGH: At least once a week.

STAFFORD: For how long?

SLABAUGH: I‘d say at least four months.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6839718/

[Coexist]

42. I saw that last year some time. I have heard loads of stories of Amish

incest. Closed communities generally keep their sins to themselves.

[TWiley]

46. Didn't Noah get drunk and screw his daughters?

After the Ark landed?

[CatWoman]

47. I never heard that. Did he really?

[TWiley]

48. I think so.

I am no bible scholar, but i believe he did when the ark landed. My memory is not the best but i think first thing he did was plant a vineyard, make wine, get drunk, and have sex with the daughters.

Maybe one of the more knowledgeable folks will chime in.

[hexola]

50. Well - we have to allow for end of the world scenarios...

Might have to bend the rules a bit...