What are your thoughts on Peter Singer?

[Taverner]

I just read one of his books on Ethics - and have to say he almost had me on becoming a vegetarian. He had set up a perfect argument, but lacked the final punch.

Great writer but needs to work on closings...

[BurtWorm]

1. Can you summarize his argument, and point out where he lost you?

I've never read any of his books, only brief articles in Free Inquiry.

[SlackJawedYokel]

2. Good starting points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer
http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/

While I agree with some of the sentiments of vegan/vegetarianism(especially where is concerns the farming industry treatment of animals) I'm hard-pressed to give up the evolutionary cornerstone of our branch of hominid.
Plus, meat tastes good. :D

That being said, Singer makes some excellent points that are well worth considering.

Cletus

[Taverner]

3. he did make some excellent points

And he had me going along...but at the end he did not make a sucessful argument on why it is more ethical to be a vegetarian over a carnivore.

Having said that, one could argue that going from carnivore to herbivore by choice would be an evolutionary change towards adaptation. I certainly would - in the long term it would be in our favor.

[SlackJawedYokel]

4. "De-evolution"?

In the sense, anyway, that the hominid branch we came from, the one gorilla's are more directly descended from, are still herbivores.
It was the switch to a high-protein diet that enabled us to redirect our food-energy needs from digestion of tough vegetable matter to growing our brains.
This is why gorilla bellies are so much bigger than ours, proportionally speaking, and more likely than not, why our brains developed more quickly than that branch.

And as far as Singers argument is concerned, it is good to remember that most philosophical arguements are made with preconceived notions... "if I were to believe this was true/right/good, then..." and in that sense I think he succeeds, more often than not, in that he thinks these things through to their logical conclusions and they fit within his framework of reasoning.

Do you recall right off just what about his argument lost you?

Because while I acknowledge that most animals possess a rudimentary awareness, I'm unconvinced that this awareness is on par with rudimentary human awareness.
IOW, a chimp with the "awareness" of a human 4 year old simply does not possess the same sort of awareness that makes us human.
(not to say that there isn't "chimp awareness" and that this is not valid and should be respected, mind you... I just don't equate the 2)

Cletus

[Taverner]

5. Yes the high protein diet contributed to our brain development

But mankind has reached a point where we can synthesize vegetable proteins to equal animal sources. Including eggs and milk in your diet and you will never be short of the amino acids.

Singer's argument on awareness was not where he lost me. I actually buy that chimp awareness can still include pain, fear and dread. By systematically killing animals we are inflicting them to this pain - something they are aware of.

[SlackJawedYokel]

6. Oky doky.

But mankind has reached a point where we can synthesize vegetable proteins to equal animal sources.
This is true up to a point... and that point is cost.

And I honestly believe we should all eat far less meat, period, if for no other reason than the waste of resources/grain it takes to feed the animals for slaughter.
Ridiculous amounts of waste.

Including eggs and milk in your diet and you will never be short of the amino acids.
Well, sure, but realistically eating eggs and milk makes you carnivorous(shhh... don't tell the lacto-vegetarians). :D

Singer's argument on awareness was not where he lost me.
Mkay... so what did?

I actually buy that chimp awareness can still include pain, fear and dread.
Oh, I don't deny that most mammals possess that level of awareness... heck, most animals in general possess that level of awareness.
(ok, maybe I'm a little pressed to buy "dread" as in a sense of impending doom/demise, but I'm open to discussion)
But how is this any different from what those animals feel in the wild just before they become some big kitty's meal?

By systematically killing animals we are inflicting them to this pain - something they are aware of.
I'm gonna have to disagree with ya here.
While I do find industrial farming methods to be more inhumane than not, I'm not convinced that domesticated animals(not an arbitrary distinction, merely trying to not conflate the two) are aware of their impending demise in any meaningful manner(leaving out the environmental aspects of the smell of blood, startling noises, etc.) or are aware to the extent that they can contemplate their future demise and feel fear/pain from that knowledge.

But, as always, I'm open to evidence to the contrary.

:)

Cletus