Religion bashing GOOD? Race bashing BAD?

[undeterred]

Discuss.

[Arugula Latte]

1. Well, religion is something people have control over.

They should be able to look at dogma and think, gosh, you know, this is a bunch of hooey.

Race -- it's just about melanin and hair texture and the like. Discrimination based on that is crazy.

[bryant69]

2. Interesting

What is the value of intellectual diversity?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[tk2kewl]

11. ...or lack thereof?

:shrug:

[Teaser]

12. Not necessarily

Belief isn't about the indidvidual rational evaluation of statements. It's as much about culture and how one is brought up.

[JackRiddler]

48. excuses

many, many people from a variety of backgrounds escape their religious indoctrination.

[GeekMonkey]

51. i was brought up christian, i grew out of it

its a choice, race is not

[JackRiddler]

49. Exactly.

These points are made admirably by Rowan Atkinson (Mr. Bean, Black Adder) in his letter to UK parliamentarians opposing a very, very bad piece of legislation that would outlaw "incitement to religious hatred":

"To criticise a person for their race is manifestly irrational and ridiculous but to criticise their religion, that is a right. That is a freedom."

"All this points to the promotion of the idea that there should be a right not to be offended when in my view, the right to offend is far more important than any right not to be offended. The right to ridicule is far more important to society than any right not to be ridiculed simply because one represents openness, the other represents oppression."


Defending the right to satirise religion By Rowan Atkinson

UK Home Secretary David Blunkett’s plans for tackling organised crime includes provisions to create a new offence of incitement to religious hatred to protect faith groups, particularly Muslims, from attack. Comedian Rowan Atkinson made this plea on behalf of “those whose job it is to question, to analyse, to satirise” as British members of parliament prepared to consider the draft law.

READ IT ALL HERE:

http://www.indexonline.org/en/news/articles/2004/4/britain-rowan-atkinson-on-the-right-to-satir.shtml

"I am here to plead that this legislation be opposed on behalf of those who make a living from creative thought: those whose job it is to question, to analyse, to satirise. Authors, academics, writers, actors, politicians and comedians.

(...)

"Is a tolerant society one in which you tolerate absurdities, iniquities and injustices simply because they are being perpetrated by or in the name of a religion and out of a desire not to rock the boat you pass no comment or criticism. So as not to cause discomfort to anyone, not to cause embarrassment. A society with a veneer of tolerance concealing a snake pit of un-aired and of course unchallenged views.

"Another questionable aspect of that use of the term ‘racial tolerance' by the Home Office is the apparent attempt to give the proposed legislation the best possible political gloss by deliberately blurring the lines between race and religion. In the draft of legislation, it is suggested that we simply substitute the words ‘racial hatred' for ‘racial or religious hatred', as if race and religion are basically the same thing and we no longer need to distinguish between them.

http://www.indexonline.org/en/news/articles/2004/4/britain-rowan-atkinson-on-the-right-to-satir.shtml

[Spider Jerusalem]

3. How is religion in any way comparable to race?

One is a set of ideas, beliefs and practises which vary widely but have in common the fact that they are all artificial intellectual constructs; the other is biological variation in the human organism caused by tens or hundreds of thousands of years of differential evolution in widely varied climates, and adaptation to different environments. I fail to see any correlation.

[Terran]

4. Maybe you should start

because your proposition is meaningless. Comparing race and religion in this context is like comparing apples and distributor caps.

[undeterred]

6. sigh- there is no proposition

There's almost no distinction between race and religion to many people. Anti Semitism is against a race and a religion. You don't have to be a religious Jew to be offended by it.

Many Christians were born into the religion of their families, many others have chosen it. Insulting and degrading someones religious beliefs is insulting something fundamental to that person.

Many people at DU don't have the vaguest understanding of what religion is or what it means to its followers and they are incapable of discussing it without being incredibly dismissive and hostile.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

13. I fully understand that there is religious discrimination

but for Christians to equate their discrimination to anti-semitism is bullshit. For Christians to claim persecution in this country is bullshit.

Christians are the majority in this country. Atheists can't run for public office in most states. So where is the discrimination here?

[undeterred]

17. Thats not the point. No one is claiming discrimination.

There is another thread which is in GD in which there is religion bashing in general going on.

There's an underlying assumption that religion is a choice- which may be true in much of American society (which has turned religion into a consumerized product), but its not true for most of the world. People who think its ok to bash or ridicule religion in general move easily to bashing particular religions and whole groups of people. Its really a terribly hypocritical position for progressives to take.

[beam me up scottie]

40. What a ridiculous idea.

"People who think its ok to bash or ridicule religion in general move easily to bashing particular religions and whole groups of people."

I don't believe I've ever heard Richard Dawkins bash whole groups of people.
Nor Carl Sagan.
Nor Gene Roddenberry.

I could go on for hours, perhaps instead you could show me how bashing religion leads to disrespect of "whole groups of people" ?

[Lexingtonian]

18. not quite

Many people at DU may be ignorant, but they oppose 'religion' exactly because they know what it is and what it means to its followers.

To many 'Christians', all their opposition gets lumped as Pagans and ignorant. It's denial of the truth that many people find organized religion, i.e. Christianities, the spiritual life equivalent of an abusive kindergarten from which no one is ever permitted to graduate.

[undeterred]

21. Well the whole picture is pretty complex and complicated

There are wonderful things and terrible things about religion.

To many 'Christians', all their opposition gets lumped as Pagans and ignorant. That may be true in some places, but I have never seen that here at DU.

The other day I heard Congressman Jesse Jackson Junior say- I am political because I am a Christian. His religious beliefs lead him to become involved in society in a way which pursues justice for all people. Not surprisingly, many on the liberal political spectrum have a religious motivation. Not to make politics religious, or religion political, but to institutionalize values of justice and freedom for all people.

Some people have taken the good and positive things from their faith and followed it to a logical conclusion by becoming politically active.

[Spider Jerusalem]

26. And some people have done the same thing WITHOUT faith.

Bertrand Russell, for instance...ever heard of him? Brilliant mathematician and philosopher, pacifist, campaigned and protested against nuclear weapons and the Vietnam war (when well into his 90's)...and he was a lifelong atheist.

Ethics can and do exist independent of religion, so it's absurd and laughable to try to give religion some special status because SOME Christians (a decided minority) are inspired by the ethics of their faith ( which, incidentally, exist in ALL faiths, and also outside them) to do positive things.

[undeterred]

32. How could a Christian hear of Bertrand Russell- we don't read

anything but the Bible, you know! We don't have advanced degrees or teach college at major universities or anything like that.

I did not give religion a special status as you have claimed, I just pointed out something to you.

[Spider Jerusalem]

34. You're AWFULLY quick to take offence, aren't you?

Most Americans, whether Christian or not, probably have no idea who Bertrand Russell was. I don't assume that a Christian is going to be any more or less ignorant than the rest of the population.

I'd suggest you take the chip off your shoulder.

[beam me up scottie]

35. Most du'ers are spiritual. Where then, do you get this:

"Many people at DU don't have the vaguest understanding of what religion is or what it means to its followers and they are incapable of discussing it without being incredibly dismissive and hostile." ?

Got anything to back that up ?

Please cite some examples.

BTW, critical does not = dismissive and hostile

[Terran]

43. First of all, regarding anti-Semitism:

There's almost no distinction between race and religion to many people. Anti Semitism is against a race and a religion. You don't have to be a religious Jew to be offended by it.

This is just wrong. In practice, "anti-Semitism" refers only to bigotry against Jews. No one uses it in reference to bigotry against Semites in general, a group which includes all Arabs as well as Jews of Middle Eastern origin. I don't believe that it is even accurate to call a Jew of European origin a Semite (somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

So, your assertion that "many people" don't distinguish between race and religion is dubious. Jews have some rules regarding what makes you a Jew that involve ancestry, but that's it. To not make such a distinction is logically very shaky.

The problem I have here is that you don't seem to be distinguishing between people's faith getting bashed and people's religion getting bashed. At DU, I really have not seen anyone's faith being bashed, at least not to any great extent. I think it's rude to do such a thing. But I have no problem bashing organized religion, which is a very different and distinct thing from faith, as I'm sure you realize. Yes, a lot of atheists have stated their opinion that faith = fantasy, but from an atheist point of view, that's just a statement of fact, it's not "bashing". If one truly has faith, one need not feel injured by the opinions of others.

I acknowledge your point that some people effectively inherit their religion, but no one simply inherits their faith; if they think they do, then they are fooling themselves. Yes, a few people here are so hostile toward religion that they ALSO fail to distinguish faith from religion, but I don't see much point in complaining about that. You're not going to change that and neither am I.

[htuttle]

14. I'm anti-distributor caps

Just so you all know.

[dhinojosa]

22. Ugh. I hear you.

:banghead:

[Lexingtonian]

5. welcome to the Modern Age

in which all false Gods take some smashing and bashing.

[undeterred]

7. thanks for enlightening me

I am humbled to be in your presence Oh wise and all knowing one. :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[undeterred]

19. And if you are an intelligent progressive democrat

who chooses to believe in a particular faith, you're a hopeless moron.

[Lexingtonian]

28. I'd be guilty of that charge myself

in the sense of belonging to a particular faith community. But I've given up the tribalism.

I don't believe in the small God and the foolish, narrow, and wrongful Divine Order Of The World that I was taught as a child. The road was in the right direction, but They never let you get beyond a certain point. As is the case in almost all religious groups.

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

42. You're overstating the case.

Not necessarily hopeless.

[mondo joe]

8. Race bashing BAD, Politics bashing GOOD?

Religion is like politics: a choice you make.

Race has nothing to do with either.

[undeterred]

9. I think your view of religion is very limited

There is a consumerist kind of religion in this country where many people do make a choice. But for many others they are born into a religious family or it is a central part of their ethnic identity.

Its not like choosing a major at college.

[mondo joe]

30. And people are born into political parties as well.

If you want to deny people accountability for their own choices you can. But I will not.

[noiretextatique]

10. race bashing, BAD?

not really.

[Terran]

45. Well said.

It's not even bad sometimes at DU.

[noiretextatique]

46. no it is not

i've been here almost since the beginning, and i am still sometimes stunned by how often it creeps up here. on the other hand, there are some really great anti-racist folks here too.
just start a reparations thread...that subject tends to bring out all the latents as well as the overts.

[TahitiNut]

15. Just as there's a difference between 'race' and 'racism' ...

... there's a difference between 'religion' and 'religionism'. Bashing racism is NOT the same as bashing race, and bashing religionism is not the same as bashing religion.

While it's now becoming common to refer to Islamic 'religionists' as Islamists ... and equate such people to terrorists ... our "fair and balanced" media fails to portray Christian 'religionists' in the same light. Indeed, why not call Islamists "evangelical Muslims"? Isn't evangelism (proselytizing) what they're talking about?

[Taxloss]

20. I'll tell you what

you can criticise religion bashing when religion stops saying that I will suffer in agony forever. Because I happily bash religion - it's misguided - but religionists not only think I'm misguided, they think I'm going to be tortured for all time and deserve it. I don't want to bash, but in my humble non-church-endorsed opinion, that makes you something like a Bad Person. But atheism doesn't endorse the idea of Bad People, that's a religion thing.

[Taxloss]

24. And by the way, Racism is utterly irrelevant to the discussion.

You're dragging it into the discussion in a deliberate and calculated attempt to smear people who criticise religion. That's not only cynical, it's wrong.

[undeterred]

29. Please read my comments above in other posts

1st of all the title of my post is ironic

2nd I do think that race and religion are related for most of the world, though there is more of a separation for white Americans

3rd I think its better to seek to understand than to bash, and if you can't understand something, sometimes its better to just leave it alone anyway, especially in a public forum

[Taxloss]

37. Irony is difficult to carry off on discussion boards.

And there is little relationship between religion and race.

Thirdly, it is all very well to talk about understanding, but I think atheists understand religion all too well, and it is our different interpretation that defines us. I, with many of my fellows, used to be a Christian. A more detailed understanding was for me a departure from faith. You don't have to be part of something to understand it. Maybe being part of it actively hinders your understanding of it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

41. Precisely.

Perspective is impossible without a certain amount of distance. You can't see something for what it is if you're too close to it.

[Taxloss]

47. Warren Ellis rocks.

:hi:

[undeterred]

25. I think bashing religion is a really bad idea as a political strategy

because there is a whole spectrum of religion across the political spectrum of this country.

But I do understand how alienating and hostile conservative religion is. If there's a hell, they tell me I'm going there too! :hi:

[Taxloss]

31. Well, I wasn't advocating it as a strategy.

Similarly, I hope you realise I wasn't attacking you - we're all evil according to some religion or other. The Zoroastrians or Parsis or Mormons or Vudus might think you're damned. They're all frickin' batshit weird in my humble opinion.

"I'll see you in Hell", as they say in the films. :toast:

[dhinojosa]

23. This is weird, are we racist here on DU?

I have seen Scientology bashing up the wazoo....but I have never seen a racist post here...

What's up?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[progressivebydesign]

33. If people keep their religion to themselves I have no problem.

Most of us are just tired of being evangelized, prostelyzed, and everything in between. YOu can believe that Elton John is the second coming.. or that your chair is divine, just don't try to shove it down my throat or insert your beliefs into the schools or government or my workplace. Simple as that.

It's not religion bashing!! It's called.. Get Your Religion Out Of My Face!!! That's all..

[dhinojosa]

36. People aren't saying anything about their religion...

It's that people are bashing others. I would like a DU with either:

1) Free bashing of all religions
2) No bashing of all religions

I prefer 1 because I am a freedom-loving kinda guy, but 2 would be nice because it maintains a friendly welcome to our "big tent" party kinda atmosphere.

[mondo joe]

38. How is religion less a choice than political party?

And even if you aer born to a religion, isn't HOW you practice it and what you DO still your choice?

[Orsino]

39. Religions that teach hate BAD. n/t

[aaronnyc]

44. Religion makes a lot of people's lives much happier

I'm not at all religious, but I understand that for some people religion is a very important part of their life. Believing that something greater exists, helps to give a lot of people a real sense of solace in their life. Is that a bad thing, which we should fight to prevent?

If religion makes people happy, why do we feel the need to convince them that their beliefs are a fallacy? I have no problem criticizing the evangelicals in the U.S. and the Islamic fundamentalists in the Middle East, who mix religion and politics while seeking to impose their views on everyone else. However, most religious people (who I have met) don't try to push their views on others; there is no need to criticize them or their religious belief. Their belief in God is their own personal choice, and nobody is the worse for it.

As Liberals we should be open-minded enough to accept different perspectives, and different ways of life. Non-believers who bash religion are no better than religious people who bash all religions except for their own (ie. Fundies who bash Muslims).

[GeekMonkey]

50. so do drugs

for some, murder makes em happy, should we 'respect' that too?