Could you live on $12,380.80 a year working double full time?

[Endangered Specie]

That is how much a waiter makes on federal minimum wage for waiters (2.12/hr) working 16 hours a day for 365 days a year.

even if it were a 'generous' $3.50 or $4, thats a salary of $20,440 or $23360 respectively (this is assuming you can manage a 112 hour work week). For a 'mere' 80 hour work week (52 weeks) the federal minimum is 8819.20, and the two values above are 14560 and 16640.

Up the ante a little bit by considering that, even at that level, youll get taxed, and remember sales tax hurts alot more when you are poorer.

Consider this next time you leave a bad tip.

And for those of you who dont want to raise minimum wage, would you like to live on a salary of $21424 (minimum wage of 5.15 for an 80 hour work week, 52 weeks).

Read about some european minimum wages here (UK is $9/hr!):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage

Talking points next time you (or I) get a rich economics major in your face telling you the minimum wage is too high :mad:



by request, here are the figures for a 40 hour week (2000 hours a year)

2.12: 4240
3.50: 7000
4.00: 8000
5.15: 10300

[Jon_da_brockman]

1. I live on 11000 a year

Its tight.

[Imagevision]

87. There's living and then there's existing...on 12k per year

[The Flaming Red Head]

2. You'd be surprised

on how many of us live on less than that and with a kid, too and no social services.

[Endangered Specie]

10. yes, but I doubt many people would "like" to live on that.

(especially those who advocate keeping, lowering, or abolishing minimum wage) and an 80 hour work week required to make those figures is an abomination.

maybe Im a little naive but I dont see how most people could do it, or should do it, in a country that claims to be the richest on the planet.

Assuming a house payment/rent of 500 is 6000 a year, there goes half the money right away. Add in a 100 a month utilities thats 7200.

Most people require a car or some transport that costs money, say, 150 a month, thats 9000 a year.

at 12000 that leaves 8.20 a day to spend on everything else.

[The Flaming Red Head]

44. I didn't say it was fun, just that it happens a lot

I'm in another bracket now, but I have lived on less then 10 grand a year. No frills, no cable, no health care, no new clothes, and lots of hot dogs and mac and cheese.

[Endangered Specie]

59. also consider inflation...

12000 in, say, 1970 would have been considered alot better, wish I could find a calculator to figure what past dollar values are worth today.

[KeepItReal]

3. SURE!! $12,380.80...after tax...In New Orleans...Single... in 1995...

Almost no way you could make that work nowadays!!

[POAS]

4. I'll find out in couple years when I retire.

[Straight Shooter]

5. I always tip 20 to 25 percent.

I don't have much money myself and I know what it feels like to stand on your feet and deal with a lot of rude members of the public. Most people are nice, but the customers with a nasty attitude can sure bring a person down.

[Inland]

7. What's right for tipping now?

As far as I am concerned, if you can't tip 20% for acceptable service, then you should be sitting down.

But is that right? And what about the cheaper places--like I go to--where the poor waitron is running around just as much as a four star gig?

[BamaGirl]

14. I have a 25%/$5 rule

I always leave a minimum of $5. Sometimes that's like 50% lol. If 25% is more than 5 bucks, I leave the %25.

You're absolutely right. If you can't afford to tip, you have no business walking in the door. I worked for Red Lobster for 2 years. You would not believe the horror stories lol.

[Inland]

32. That's not a bad rule.

And did you get prayer cards as tips? I've heard that sunday after church is a terrible time to wait on tables.

[BamaGirl]

37. Yes! Omg, cheap

fucking assholes! Luckily I got to a seniority point that I could refuse to work Sunday's and Wednesday's and not get fired lol. :D

[quiet.american]

46. I'd forgotten that -- the worst.

Maybe because all the discretionary income had been put into the offering plate?.... :)

[Endangered Specie]

49. A prayer card as a tip?!

lord knows what my prayer would be...

[madeline_con]

91. sunday after church

The worst. They act like they looted King Solomon's mines for you when they leave $1 and a prayer card!

[napi21]

58. SORRY! I disagree with the if you can't afford a 25% tip don't fo in!

We probably don't go out to eat more than 3/4 times a year. Most of the time, the bill is $30.00. You're telling me it should cost me $30.00 + $2.10 tax + $7.50 tip?

I'm sorry the gov't has allowed an exception to the minimum wage for restaurant workers, and I don't think they should have, but we simply don't make enough money either, to add ten dollars to a restaurant bill!

For you to tell me I should just damn stay home isn't fair either!

[BamaGirl]

64. Are you responding to me?

If so, I suggest you go back and reread the post. I didn't say everyone should tip 25%. I said I tip 25%. Why? Cause I've waited on tables before and I understand how difficult the job can be and how obnoxious people can be. What I did say was that people who don't tip shouldn't go to restaurants where they are expected to tip because the staff is paid 2.14/hr with the expectation that the server will receive a 15% tip. That is the generally accepted industry minimum. Your tip is up to you of course.

And yeah, I would be tipping $7.50 on that ticket. We got out to eat about once every 3 months because it costs so much including the tip, and frankly the food is usually not worth it.

[napi21]

70. I never waited tables because I didn't think I was qualified.

I've always been shakey and had big trouble carrying a glass without spilling it, so I think I recognized my strong points and my weak ones, and waiting tables just wasn't one of the strong ones. I realize how difficult it must be, of for no other reason, any job dealind directly with the public is difficult.

All I'm telling you is that it's nice, once in a while, to be able to go out to eat. I can't remember the last time we went to a "reall nice restaurant". Some years ago, when we were both working, we went to some pretty classy ones, where the service was great, the food was terrific and the price was BIG! I recall a dinner in a restaurant in SC where we took our 2 sons for dinner. The bill was $480 for the four of us, and that was 1992. I really don't remember the tip that night.

We can't afford that kind of foolishness anymore.

I enjoy a dinner at Red Lobster once in a while. But I can't afford the big tips you're asking for.

[benevolent dictator]

77. BamaGirl was just saying the SHE tips 25% not that YOU have to.

What she was saying is that if you can't afford the FIFTEEN PERCENT tip, then you shouldn't go out to eat, but that she prefers to leave a 25% tip. It's less than $5 on a $30 meal.

I tend to agree, since I know people who claim that the restaurant tracks how much they sell in order to tax them on the assumed tips. They assume that you make 12% in tips, so if someone tips less than 12% then you are paying taxes on money you never got.

[BamaGirl]

78. Holy crap

Is any food that good lol!? Although I would have loved the tip. I had 4 people spend about $280 not including the tip one night at RL. The tip made the night. ;)

I don't expect most people to tip like I do. I do expect everyone to tip though. Hey, I stay at home with 3 kids you are not telling me anything I don't know lol. But I also waited on tables with 2 kids at home when I was pregnant, and I know how hard it is to live on that. I also know a whole lot of people who would never make it in the restaurant business. As far as qualified goes lol, patience is the biggest qualifier. And a serious tolerance for other ppl's bs. :D I don't think I could go back to it now.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

71. The extra-low wage for restaurant workers is by state

When I lived in Oregon, there was a move by Republicans in the legislature to allow a lower minimum wage for servers on the theory that tips allow them to make minimum wage. The claim was that restaurant prices were too high because servers were paid "too much."

I don't think the bill got anywhere, probably because enough people had traveled around the country and noticed that restaurant meals weren't any more expensive in Oregon than elsewhere.

I believe that Minnesota also gives restaurant servers full minimum wage.

[Clark2008]

76. 25 percent?

Man... I'd never get to eat out.

I tip about 20 percent, which is acceptable in the area in which I live: the cost of living is lower and people all across the board don't get paid a lot.

[Straight Shooter]

16. I have no idea.

Actually, I don't eat out that much, maybe once every 6 weeks to a really great Mexican restaurant in town.

I think maybe everyone has to find their own comfortable level of tipping. I would rather tip too much and pinch my budget, than to tip too little and feel guilty about the waiter/waitress who is doing their best to get by in a hard job.

Of course, there are some restaurants where even a 10 percent tip is a hefty amount, but I think most waiters/waitresses don't work in such fine restaurants.

As for the original question, if it's net, yes, I can live on that a year. I have in the past, and I still do, but that's because my car is paid for and I don't drive very much. If I had a kid, there's no way I could get by.

[TahitiNut]

43. 15 to 20 percent of the total tab.

• Airport Porters - $1 per bag for normal sizes, $2 per bag for large or heavy items.
  
• Chauffeurs - 10 to 15 percent of fare.
  
• Coat Check - $2 to $5 upon retrieval.
  
• Concierges or Guest Services Representatives - $10 to $20 depending on the complexity of the service--theater tickets, restaurant reservations, tour bookings, last-minute arrangements.
  
• Hotel Door Persons - $2 for summoning a taxi by phone, $1 for hailing from street, $2 to $5 if they opened the door for you each time you entered and left the hotel.
  
• Hotel Porters - $1 to $2 per bag, $5 minimum.
  
• Housekeeping Staff - $2 to $5 per night, paid daily or as a sum at checkout.
  
• Parking Valets - $2 to $5 for parking and delivery.
  
• Restaurant and Bar Service - 15 to 20 percent of the total tab.
  
• Room Service - $5 minimum.
  
• Taxicabs and Hotel Courtesy Cars - 10 percent of fare, $2 to $5 minimum depending on service. Add $1 per bag placed in trunk.

http://www.ehow.com/how_112004_tip-properly-north.html

I've traveled extensively, worked in restaurants, and have a close nephew who manages a restaurant and I subscribe to the guide above. Furthermore, I never put the tip on a charge card - always in cash.

[bobbieinok]

60. why not on a charge card??? chance waiter might not get the $????

[TahitiNut]

63. Credit card companies charge a percentage of the gross ...

... for processing the charge slips. This can be around 2-3%. Some employers can knock down the tip to recoup that portion of the fee. It also creates a "paper trail" of tipping - which may or may not be desirable, depending on your attitudes towards tipped employees and the IRS.

[bobbieinok]

65. thanks, I'll remember that ..... does charge also apply to check cards??

[TahitiNut]

68. Yes, I believe so. (It may even be more on debit cards.)

:shrug: There's also the "float" -- the time between the card company getting the consumer's money and then paying the merchant. "Float" is a really big deal in the banking industry.

[tyedyeto]

92. I've seen employers 'knocking down' the tip

A customer believes their server is getting the full amount of the tip they charge on credit cards, when actually, the house takes their cut for 'expenses' first. Fortunately, the restaurant I work at now doesn't do that to 'my staff' (I am now in management).

[madeline_con]

93. I don't know how everyone handles that,

but if the tip box said $10.00, that's what I got. I'm in central FL. Space Coast.

[movie_girl99]

105. i don't like leaving tips on a CC

because they have to report all of their CC tips but only a percentage of their cash tips.

[jbnow]

73. You're right about that risk too

Years ago I did a stint as a waitress and it was pretty sad how many large tables I did a lot of work for and got along with very well left no tip. But it turned out they did, management just wasn't handing it over. The bookkeeper accidentally clued me in when she mentioned some of my "huge tips" and asked what my secret was.
(I think it was my being pregnant more then my great personality or service. People would ask if I should be carrying trays in my "condition" and I'd tell them the baby was why I needed to.)

When confronted the owner said it was an oversight and I sat there as the bookkeeper went through the records for the time I worked there. They had stolen hundreds$. They then fired me saying their insurance wouldn't cover pregnant workers.

Others said they got their tips. Maybe they took advantage of me because I was new and a teenager, but I'm pretty sure they were all ripped off to a lesser degree.

Because of that I have always tipped in cash, even if I charged the meal.

[madeline_con]

94. At one place I worked...

we had a bus boy who was always more eager to bus the tables with tips still on them. He was stealing the money as he'd scoop up the tablecloth and napkins, then go through the laundry!

We double-teamed him by getting each others tips as we passed by.

[NNN0LHI]

83. When you say "15 to 20 percent of the total tab", does that include...

...the sales tax, or do you subtract that amount before calculating the tip? I tip the same as you do but have never tipped on the sales tax. What is correct?

Don

[TahitiNut]

86. When the sales tax is high (over 5%) ...

... and the state minimum wage laws cover tipped and non-tipped workers the same, I effectively exclude most of the sales tax in figuring the tip. Like I say, there's tipping "windage" from state to state because the state minimum wage laws for tipped employees differs so much. That said, I don't pinch pennies. I tend to round up to the next quarter or half, depending. If I'm eating at Maisonette in Cincinnati, for example, then it makes no difference what the minimum wage is -- those people haul down good wages and the tab is gonna be in three figures anyway. It'd be unusual for me to tip other than 18-22% there (no loose change). (Also, I'm an "old school" guy and usually tip less for counter service than table service.)

I tend to follow other guidelines, as well...
- I avoid going to restaurants on Friday or Saturday nights, especially "good" restaurants where the "dining experience" (rather than just filling my belly and socializing) is why I'm there. Those nights are date, birthday, and anniversary nights - amateur night. I tend to only go to the "good" restaurants on Thursday nights - full staff, full menu, "experienced" diners, no drunks.
- one of the best "tips" I can give my server is to be a good customer. I NEVER give them a hard time. I NEVER make a mess. I avoid ordering as some kind of "expression of my individuality" -- if it's not their mainstream menu item then why am I there? If I see they're busy, I just ask them to let me know when things are "iffy" and try to be patient. I rarely get bad service (and probably less spit-on food).
- On their busy nights (Th-Sat), I avoid the rush. If I'm early, I get my butt out when I'm done and don't linger. (I don't rush, though.) That way I let them turn the table over and I don't wind up with a server just starting to drown.

I've spent a LOT of time "on the road" - mostly travelling for business - over the last 35 years. I've been treated well as a returning customer quite often, and I haven't had to play Daddy Warbucks to do it.

[NNN0LHI]

97. I do my best to avoid the spit-on food when dining out too

I treat my waiter or waitress with more respect than I would the governor. I don't leave no messes either. I tip up also. If the tip comes to $7.70, I leave $8.00. If it comes to $7.20, I still leave $8.00.

I agree with the Friday and Saturday nights too. I add holidays to that though. I won't go out for dinner on a holiday. Seems like they through any crap at you and then they act like they did you some kind of big favor. Screw that noise. I would rather just stay home and make chili or something.

Don

[anarchy1999]

85. Thank you. The most intelligent post of the night.

n/t

We always tip well.

[LynneSin]

104. Some of those waitpersons in dinners make killer bucks

One of the holdbacks I found when waitressing was the limitation of tables. When you start getting above the dinner-style restaurants you'll find that most waitpersons are only giving anywhere from 3-5 tables at a time in order to focus on customer service. When I worked at Houlihans for 3 years (hell, the food was ok but I have nothing but raves for how they treated their employees and the fact they offered benefits) the ability to make money was our ability to turn tables around. Nothing killed a night more than a couple who decided to keep the table all night for 'chit-chat'. :grr: for me to make money I needed to turn that table over about 3 times a night since I was only allowed 4 tables per night.

But in Dinners, there is a speed factor into the system and some of those waitresses are pros at handling 10-12 tables at a time. So even though the bill may be smaller, the number of tables being served was far greater and the turnover of the tables went quickly.

[cynatnite]

6. lived on less than 9k per year over 20 years ago

it was hell and I had a kid to support with no health care.

I can do the talking points great :)

The minimum wage in this country is pathetic.

The other thing is, too, when I mention to someone about how another country handles their medical care or something such as France's 35 hour work week, the other person says...'that would never work here'. We're not Europe and all that. :banghead:

[Sugarbleus]

30 years ago, spouse and I lived on $8,000 a year-one income. We didn't

suffer and were able to pay rent AND have money left over for an outing.

Auto insurance wasn't mandatory so we didn't have that to pay. Spouse's company paid ALL the medical in those days...Gasoline was cheap, energy was affordable, groceries were affordable, rentals were affordable, and Big Business was REGULATED

Just 30 years ago; not 130, not 70 ..a mere 30 years ago.

Stunning..Amazing, how far we've fallen in this country!!

[oscar111]

24. OP, do it with 40 hr/wk: And post here, EU min wages: and retort for "that

would never work here"

Last first... tell the freepwr who says "would never work here", that in the past, 18OO's ,

folks with seven day weeks would've said of a "weekend off", they would've said "that would never work here". But it does work here.

1. your OP would be a stronger argument using a forty hr week.
Lesseee.. is that then 4280/yr?
If so, then ask economics major if they could live on that.

folks can live on 12 K/yr, but not 4 K i bet, not unless they sleep by a dumpster and eat from said dumpster too.

2. many are too rushed to go on links to read... pls post here, what EU min wages are . tks.

[MichiganVote]

8. Not anymore.

[Sugarbleus]

9. Combined incomes net us about 20,050 per year

No one can live (in this economy)easily on that amount. In calif here, my youngest daughter is making $11 ph and she can't afford an apt., car repairs, auto insurance, nor very many items of clothing. She attends college at night but has to pay for that herself also. She lives in her father's den. She is 32

Anyone making less than that is in shit city. I always tip. BTW, for those who may not know it, it is also appropriate to tip the maid who cleans your room at the motel/hotel/Inn.

[happyslug]

11. US regular minimum wage is only $10,712 a year

In a 52 week, 8 hour a day work year, there are 2080 hours. If you want to be lazy and assume a two weeks vacation you can use 2000 times whatever is your hourly wage (and be closer to the truth), but with calculators we can easily take 2080 times $5.15 and come to $10,712 per year.

The federal guidelines for Poverty sets $9310 as the level for Poverty in the US:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/04poverty.shtml

[Endangered Specie]

13. 9310?

:wow: damn, just damn.

i would have guessed at least 12500....


guess I AM naive.

[happyslug]

18. You are the money for two people

The guideline says 12,490 annual income is the poverty level for TWO people (Husband and wife OR parent and child, if the income is less than $12,490).

[Endangered Specie]

22. Yeah I saw...

I would have thought that two people would be around 13-14k though:shrug:

[BooScout]

12. When I waited tables.........

I worked part-time & made more $$$ than my full time "real job" that utilized my college degree. I was rolling in the dough and made great tips............I also know that most wait people do not declare all their tips either.

[happyslug]

30. I have had sister wait on tables

And if you had the right tables and the right hours you could clean up, but most time those tables and hours went to the senior employees not to them. It is a sink or swim occupation, but you will be surprised where people are paid the tip allowance. I once went to an Ice Cream store for an ice Cream and later found out that the counter attendant was only paid the tip allowance (and this was primarily a TAKE OUT ice cream store). I never thought of tipping in such a store and never did (and until I heard that they paid their employee only tip allowance I had always wondered why the store always had new workers who did not seem enthusiastic and why the chain went out of business a few years later).

[ObaMania]

15. That's $120. less than..

.. I made in 1985 as a claims filer. And back then that was tight! No way in hell I could even imagine making that nowadays.

When I was a bartender making about that much, the money a little more than doubled counting tips. So depending on where the Waiter/waitress job is, folks can make pretty big bucks. But $12,380. alone? NFW!!!

[BamaGirl]

23. I agree

So depending on where the Waiter/waitress job is, folks can make pretty big bucks

I made very good money waiting on tables outside Atlanta, and really lousy money waiting on tables here. Still, there were plenty of plain ole cheap idiots who wouldn't have tipped well no matter what you did in the Atlanta restaurant. A couple of bad ones could really ruin a shift.

[James T. Kirk]

17. My last waiter was worth about $2.12 per hour.

He interrupted us too much during dinner, tripped on my foot and brought us the check TWICE. Some people have the jobs they deserve.

[DS9Voy]

29. You're right

not all people who work 40 hours a week are entitled to the basic money needed to survive.

[James T. Kirk]

98. He's fortunate he gets tips and food discounts.

The parking lot outside the restaurant was littered with the corpses of the waiters and waitresses who did not survive.
:eyes:

[wallwriter]

19. God help the people trying to raise a kid or more on that money.

[Endangered Specie]

20. or having to support a parent...

or a combination of the two and medical bills.

[msongs]

26. or else they could help themselves and get a different job?

as god allegedly says, he/she/it helps those who help them selves, and I do not think that refers to file sharing on the internet :-)

if one does not like one's current condition, there may be ways to change it.

that is a viable alternative is it not?

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Endangered Specie]

27. not if you dont have an education...

because parents couldnt afford it perhaps :shrug:

[DS9Voy]

31. BS

A single working parent surely can go to school full time, right? It's easy.

And that min wage job, after all bills are paid for, surely will pay for school, right?

[cynatnite]

41. sure with another two or three jobs

/sarcasm off

I remember a lady that told bush she was working three jobs and all that dumbass could do was talk about how great it was :grr:

[nonconformist]

57. How righteous of you. nt

[raccoon]

107. Second that. nt

[lisa58]

21. NO n/t

[BiggJawn]

25. I lived down the street from a waiter who made...

$90,000 a year. Well, that's what HE claimed anyway, and his partner and him had a VERY nice looking house, and took VERY nice vacations, and were VERY good neighbours.

Suffice to say he did NOT work at IHOP....

[oscar111]

36. Perhaps he has an illegal income, and the big claim

is a lame cover-up. Sure does not seem realistic.

could he be a pathological liar?

Or, his partner is the real breadwinner, doing who knows what?

[BiggJawn]

100. Hee worked at a VERY upscale place...

I dunno, it COULD be in the realm of possiblity. Someone who'd pay $50 for a cupcake with chocolate sauce drizzled around it wouldn't kick at tipping big, would they?

[happyslug]

38. I had a client whose live in boyfriend had jars and Jars of tip money

At least that what he told her (She did not believe it). He worked at Burger King, a "great" spot for Tips (He also ran drugs, where this money came from, must be another tipping situation).

Seriously I ended up driving her to her home, picking up the money and giving it to her boyfriend's attorney. It was his money and those Drug Dealers get picky over someone keeping it. By giving it to his attorney , it ceased to be a problem between my client and her boyfriend, and became a problem between him and his attorney.

[Curtis]

47. My wife and I used to bring in close to that

Together we made between $70K-$80K a year waiting table at just Red Lobster, and we only worked about 25-30 hours a week. A gay couple we were best friends with were making well over $100K a year working at the same store. They did work about 40 hrs a week each but still.

I think the article is definetly leaving out tips

[BiggJawn]

101. Of COURSE it's discounting tips.

If i could make $90,000 in TIPS, I'd tell the owner "Keep your pissy 2 bucks an hour, just let me at them tables!"

[TahitiNut]

28. Waiters and waitresses are guaranteed minimum wage ...

... when tips are included, by most restaurants/bars, no matter what state they're in. In other words, if they don't get enough in tips to gross up their earnings to minimum wage rates, the restaurant will make up the difference. The vast majority make more.

Federal Law (FLSA) sets a Basic Combined Cash & Tip Minimum Wage Rate of $5.70/hour.

Many states don't allow a lower minimum wage for tipped employees, so their state minimum wage applies to waiters and waitresses as well. Those states include Alaska ($7.15/hr), California ($6.75/hr), Minnesota ($4.90/hr), Montana ($4.00/hr), Nevada ($5.15/hr), Oregon ($7.25/hr), and Washington ($7.35/hr).

http://www.dol.gov/esa/programs/whd/state/tipped.htm

[Endangered Specie]

40. seems a little ridiculous to ASK for an already substandard min wage

[TahitiNut]

54. You think a waiter/waitress earning wages of $6.75/hour is "substandard"??

I think perhaps people might be wise to understand that the cash wage rates for waiters and waitresses vary A LOT from state to state. It might make tipping a bit better informed. :eyes:

[Endangered Specie]

56. "hello, mr/mrs, can you please tell me your hourly wage...

"hello, mr/mrs, can you please tell me your hourly wage so I can better figure your tip to line up with minimum wage or what I think you should make"

[TahitiNut]

82. Inane replies like that don't serve decent discussion.

I provided a link, so for krissakes read it.
http://www.dol.gov/esa/programs/whd/state/tipped.htm

Many states (mainly "blue") have minimum wage laws that're better than the Feds. It's just another example of how fucking STUPID people are in other states where they consistently vote in politicians that're screwing them right and left.

I'm one of the greatest proponents on DU for an increase in the Federal Minimum Wage. But I sure as hell school myself on the details ... including the differences betwen various states.

We'd all be a helluva lot better off if the Fed adopted the California rates, imho. I'd prefer the Washington rates, but I don't see it as doable. Yet.

[tyedyeto]

96. Not always...

Federal Law (FLSA) sets a Basic Combined Cash & Tip Minimum Wage Rate of $5.70/hour.

Here they are supposed to at least make the Federal minimum wage which is $5.15/hour

[MazeRat7]

33. Hummmm.... the basics of supply and demand come to mind here...

If there is a large enough pool of people actually willing to work for $2.12/hr... well then that is what that task is valued at in the labor market. When/if the day comes that people will not work for that amount, then the price (valuation of labor) will rise.

In my humble opinion, reliance on the federal government to "increase minimum wage" is folly at best. Certainly their target goals for compensation will be strongly influenced by those that live on 12k/mo or more... not 12k/year.

Unfortunately that is an inherent problem in the capitalistic model... there is a certain percentage of the working class that is destined to be poor. The best we can strive for is to educate workers to reach for something larger and deny labor to businesses that are only willing to offer the federal minimum.

MZr7

[benevolent dictator]

72. A certain percentage will be poor but they don't

need to lack basic necessities of survival. I really don't see any reason why someone working 40 hours/week should be in poverty. None at all.

It's easy to say "refuse to work for that little" when you've got a nice job, when it's the only job you can come by, well it's another story. Having some money is better than no money, even if it isn't enough to cover all of the bills.

"We can't all be managers or there will be no one to manage."

[Bouncy Ball]

34. In 1991, 1992, and part of 1993, my husband and I brought home

(net) about $12,000 a year. So yeah, I've done it. It wasn't fun, though, and we had no child back then, no mortgage and only one tiny car payment. He was in the Army, so medical was taken care of. And gas prices and food prices weren't so high.

It was still hell. I'm a big tipper, though. Always have been. I feel for people who depend on tips.

[norml]

35. With tips I earn about $11,500 per year delivering pizzas six days a week.

I pay $300 per month rent with the utilities paid. Phone and cable are extra. I've got dental insurance that pays half of any dental bill, and no health insurance beyond that. I'd like to get some pains checked out by a doctor, but I can't afford to.

[oscar111]

39. OP, can you still edit your OP?

i like the intent of your post, like it a LOT.

but fact is, folks in my cousin's town CAN live on that 12K.

so i suggest editing the OP to a forty hour week,
2OOOhrs / yr with a vacation

so now you say

can you live on 4,24O per year?

[oscar111]

42. 1O9 Trillion is US wealth

we have a gobble/starve economy.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/current/accessible/l5.htm

see bottom line there
for US total wealth. Nice official figures, hard for freepers to dispute.

wealth goes up yearly, but daily, tv news is
"firefighters cut
cops cut
schools cut
pothole repair cut"
Makes no sense.

WEALTH UP, ... SO... CUTS?

makes no sense
============================
We have a gobble/starve economy:

Kozlowski gobbles,
you starve {12 million are facing hunger in the US}

Koz. spent 2 million on a birthday party, with vodka pouring from a male outlet in an ice statue of David.

Do we really need such statues?

[Endangered Specie]

48. guess that makes Koz. Goliath

[oscar111]

50. EUROPE: $32/HR is AVG, not min, for Denmark: $1O/hr is min, France

if i read France right.

leseee ... 32 times two thou, is 64 K/yr average income in Denmark... above ours.. 34 K or so here.. two breadwinners makes it 5O K./ usa family avg.

64 vs 34 here. Denmark, .. when is the next plane to Denmark?

The link to a page on min wage.. that page is marred by incomparable units.. per week some , per month others, and none compared to cost of living.. just some wierd rt hand column that i cannot figure out.

[noiretextatique]

45. that would cover my rent

and little else.

[oscar111]

52. 12 K would cover brass polish for my yacht, little else

LOL kidding

[noiretextatique]

53. i live in the bay area

it's very expensive to live here, even without brass and yachts :7

[Daphne08]

81. Same here in California!

:mad:

[nonconformist]

51. To compare

New recruits in the service (E-1) make $13,712.40 a year

An E-4 with over 4 years of service makes $22,522.40 a year.

[oscar111]

55. Recommend for GREATEST PAGE: i'm the 1st, you be the next pls

xxxx

[brokensymmetry]

61. OK.

It's an interesting thread...

Recommended.

[Sgent]

62. Someone didn't know what the hell they were writing

In no situation would a waiter make 2.125 an hour, it is illegal.

The employer must pay 2.125 an hour, AND MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE if the the person doesn't make 5.15 an hour from tips. If the waiter is on overtime, the employer must pay 4.25/hr, and make up the difference if the waiter isn't paid at least 7.725/hr.

At these rates, someone working 16hrs/day, 365 a year would make $26,845. Still not a lot, but a lot more than 12k mentioned above.

[nonconformist]

67. Right

Someone working for tips is better off than an un-tipped minimum wage worker.

[AirAmFan]

66. Low-wage workers with children can get up to $4300 in EITC

(Earned Income Tax Credit) rebates from the feds for 2004 alone, on top of their earnings. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, it's still not too late to file amended returns for 2004, 2003, and 2002. Did every DUer who's eligible take advantage of this?

See http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96466,00.html .

[LiberalAndProud]

69. No.

But then, I smoke.

[libodem]

74. I hate that they tax tips

when those rich fuckers inherit every damn dime the have, never work a day in their worthless lives and have everything handed to them. They tax on a certain percentage of the expected gratuity and if you stiff someone on a tip they actually go in the hole. God, that makes my blood boil. oooohhhh I need to go tear something up......

[Hippo_Tron]

75. 15% or above is my usual, there was one time that I didn't tip

But I felt that the waitress was very rude to me and my friend (who usually tips more than I do). Yea the minimum wage does need to be raised to a living wage.

[Sgent]

79. Don't feel bad about not tipping

if the service sucked. I worked as a waiter, and knew when I messed up a table. I wouldn't be offended if I weren't tipped.

BTW. I usually tip 20% on good service (drink alawys filled), and 15% on average service (drink unfilled for a little while), and 10% or less on bad service (I'm thirsty most the meal, they, not the kitchen, mess something up badly, etc). I also have a minimum tip of $5.00 for a sit down restaurant, regardless of the check size.

The above is more generous than normal at least for my area, but I don't feel guilty either if/when I leave 10% or less.

[Hippo_Tron]

80. I even leave SOMETHING for bad service, this woman was just rude

[kineneb]

84. No. But the two of us live on less than 17K in CA

And trust me, we don't do much. I have no benefits or time off at work, even though it pay $10/hr. Since Hubby needs serious medical care (ignoring diabetes is not an option), we disposed of our few "liquid" assets and have CMSP(=adult MediCal). To avoid a "share of cost" payment, our pre-tax income cannot be over $1000/mo! Right now we have to pay $250 per month as share of cost. This is almost a quarter of my take-home pay! Needless to say, I have begun talking to those in power about working less hours. There seems no sense in paying taxes on the higher income and then paying the share of cost as well. SOC is based on PRE-tax income - insane.

[expatriate]

88. I've often challenged people who think

that the minimum wage is already too high, or sufficient, to make up a realistic budget, taking into account the cost of rentals, groceries, utilities, transportation, clothing, etc in their locality, and making sure they take out taxes, Social Security, Medicare, etc before doing the budget. They must also take into account either paying for health insurance or paying out of pocket for medical and dental checkups. The challenge is for them to come up with a way someone could live with any degree of decency and eating a nutritious diet, on that amount of money.

To date, not one of them has been able to do it. The challenge usually shuts them up in a red hot hurry.

I know people can do it. I have done it. But the food I was able to afford was far from optimum, and I have severe health problems to this day because of the stuff I had to eat and the fact that I couldn't afford any sort of medical care (and didn't qualify for any aid because I made too much money).

[Occulus]

89. "Consider this next time you leave a bad tip."

Consider forcing restaurant owners to pay their employees the true minimum wage for a s-m-a-l-l percentage of the tip. Then listen to them howl about having to pay their own employees what other service employees get paid.

Waiters everywhere should strike unwaveringly until that occurs. I know, I know; I won't hold my breath on that one.

[madeline_con]

90. "(2.12/hr) working 16 hours a day for 365 days a year."

Here's how it works. Subtract the 2.12 from min. wage, and claim that as tips per hours worked. You can work 30 hours a week and still make more than your friends in their full time jobs at normal min. wage.

If you don't, either the place you work sucks, or you suck as a wait person. (not YOU personally, but 'you' the wait person in general)

>>"Talking points next time you (or I) get a rich economics major in your face telling you the minimum wage is too high :mad: <<<<

One of my rules: as soon as some suit started talking about money, as in MY money, he/she got the absolute minimum service, so I could devote my time to people who believed in tipping. Don't waste time on assholes.

One drawback is you need to get a full time with benefits eventually, so you'l have something paid into S.S.

Oh, uh, never mind. That's going to be stolen, too.

[Freedomfried]

95. I support a family of 4 on $1500 a month comfortably

as a matter of fact, we live VERY well.

Freedomfried,
Negros Island
Philippines

[KharmaTrain]

99. I'll Tip 50% Cash...

As one whose done his share of minimum-wage jobs, I have always had a special appreciation for food service workers (waiters, waitresses, cooks, etc.)...especially at a franchise operation. Most are working there because they have to...need the insurance, a steady job, the money and so on. These people put in solid work days and put up with some of the worst management and boorish people.

That's why I will tip upwards of 50% on a regular basis...I love the look of the server picking up the $10 on a $20 tab and I know it's being appreciated. I never fill out the tip on the receipt (I don't trust the house), and in some cases, I'll leave extra tip money and tell the server to pass it around to the kitchen staff.

I'm lucky, I can afford to do this now and I know how a good tip not only can help a person who works hard but also a pat on the back to say not all people are assholes.

[eridani]

102. HUGE difference between high end and low end restaurants

There are expensive places where the waitstaff actually pay the employers for the privilege of collecting really big tips. Needless to say, this is not Denny's or IHOP, where income can be really marginal.

[LynneSin]

103. I lived on over $30k/year as a waitress - don't go screwing up the system

UGH!

Seriously, yes, I know I was making $2/hr as a waitress but I also know I was pulling in a shitload more money as a waitress with the tips I was receiving. I was working 4-5 days a week taking home anywhere from $80-$200 a night working at one of those chain restaurants (TGIF, Outback, Houlihans - you know the type). If I wanted to make fucking minimum wage in a restaurant I would have gotten a job at McDonalds were at least I wouldn't have to worry about hustling my ass off trying to please the customers.

The system works for waitering and if you're good at it you can get 'promoted' by moving to higher end restaurants where the money is even better. The only reason I stayed with the chain restaurant that I worked for was benefits. After 3 months employment we were offered benefits that weren't really that great but were affordable. So the $2.15/hour I made pretty much covered tax on my tips and my benefits - if I had a check for $10 that was a great week. But I was depositing money everynight from my tips and I was a damn good waitresses.

Please don't muck with the tip system setup - it's a great way to make a decent salary provided that you're willing to put the effort in with some decent skills for your customers. I am so greatful I was able to do this for 3 years because before that I went through 5 years of really shitty sales jobs where I barely made $20-25k a year. Those 3 years of waitressing got my head on straight and the ability to focus on getting a really great job which I've been at since 1997.

[Zynx]

106. Tips can make their actual wage much higher than that.

I've talked to high school kids who have an hourly wage of something like $3, but manage through tips to get $9 or $10. That ain't much, but it's a lot better than it first appears.