If Christians knew Jesus was black

[RethugAssKicker]

Would this end the Christian religion as we know it in America?

I know they would try to deny it (as they do now), but what if irrefutable proof was discovered...What do you think would happen?

[China_cat]

1. They can't even stand the fact

that if he existed he had dark hair, dark skin, dark eyes and an ethnic nose.

[Warpy]

7. They still deny he was a practicing Jew

and a rabble rouser against the televangelists of his day, the Pharisees.

[DeepModem Mom]

18. This Christian knows he was a revolutionary Jew, and approves. nt

[China_cat]

24. Ever see the spittle fly

when they see the bumper sticker that says "Jesus had a Jewish mother"?

[DeepModem Mom]

14. This Christian knows what he must have looked like...

and it doesn't bother me one iota.

[GeekMonkey]

92. its admirable that you go against the majority of your religion

[DeepModem Mom]

94. My denomination is a major denomination on the African continent...

(Anglicanism), so I would be reluctant to say that the majority of Christians are racists without some documentation.

[insane_cratic_gal]

46. Wasn't it his wish

to NOT have a religion coined after him?

I get confused.. because to me Jesus was a man. A very spiritual man, a teacher but he was still a man. Not god become man become God. He never says this. He never wants the worship to move from God to him. He says he's the son of God, hinting that we are all children of God?

So I guess I believe he was just a man, one to be a role model, yet a man. Does that make me Jewish? ;-)

[GreenArrow]

84. no, he never says he wanted to be worshiped

or even was to be worshiped, and this cannot be pointed out enough.

[Ilsa]

2. Denial denial denial.

They'll claim it is a leftist (?) plot, like evolution, as if it would be "wrong" for Jesus to be Black.

[goclark]

50. Jesus was a "darker" man

and Jewish.

No problem AT ALL with me.
Have you noticed they are trying to make King Tut white?

[no safe haven]

57. Yeah, King Tut and every other Egyptian

of antiquity. Amazing! Somehow, in the minds of euro historians, Egypt was a separate entity from Africa.

[Spider Jerusalem]

67. He probably wasn't "white"...

but he probably wasn't "black", either; Egypt is in north Africa, not sub-Saharan Africa (there is a distinct difference in ethnicity between northern Africans and sub-Saharan Africans; the latter tend to be what we think of as "black").I recall reading that forensic anthropological examination of Tutankhamen's skull showed it to be of a "Caucasoid North African" type (the Berbers and Ethiopians are ALSO "Caucasoid", for what that's worth).

[minerva50]

83. Yes and some of his tomb furniture

depicts his enemies; some of whom have African and some of whom have Asian features. DNA studies have also shown that the Egyptians of today are the descendants of the ancient Egyptians, so they likely looked much the same.

[Tim4319]

3. A lot of these so called Christians

would start stating negative information about Jesus. The same ones that were claiming to be God-fearing, would try and destroy his character.

[TWiley]

61. If Jesus returned today, the Christians would Kill him.

Not only small and dark skinned, he would certainly not be a capitalist or a war monger. He would certainly not be a conservative republican, and if pressed, he would probably oppose military spending and endorse social welfare programs.

As he did not appear to believe in private ownership, most would consider him a communist, homeless, and unemployed vagabond.

Yep, the Christians would kill him.

[DeepModem Mom]

69. This Christian might find heroic the modern day social revolutionary...

you so aptly describe.

[bryant69]

4. Well all Christians are Racists

So clearly this would spell the end of Christianity. Probably be a big recruiting day for Dianetics.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[DeepModem Mom]

21. Wow, didn't realize I was a racist. nt

[bryant69]

36. Well I guess i should have put the sarcasm point on it

BUt that is the point of this post. Christians are Racists.

[DeepModem Mom]

43. I'm so sorry -- I missed that in my "have had it" mood.

:)

[TWiley]

63. Well, Christians are tribal.

Nobody outside their "tribe" gets to enter the kingdom of heaven. It is akin to racism.

[DeepModem Mom]

71. This Christian rejects that idea in the strongest possible terms...

and isn't even clear on the idea of "heaven."

[TWiley]

75. Well, there are different sects.

However, most Christians believe that one must be born again and confess Jesus to be saved and enter the Kingdom of heaven.

Gotta join the tribe or you will burn in hell.

[DeepModem Mom]

76. Could you provide documentation...

that most Christians believe one must be born again? I belong to an entire Protestant denomination that never uses the term "born again."

[TWiley]

95. The documentation is in the bible.

At least that is what the fundamentalist evangelicals say. Stop by the nearest pentacostical church, I am sure they will help you with your question.

[DeepModem Mom]

99. If some Christian sects, to use your very apt word, believe...

certain things, that doesn't mean that a majority of Christians do. Christianity is a worldwide religion. I completely reject and deplore Christian fundamentalism, as I reject the fanaticism of other faiths.

[RaleighNCDUer]

52. LOL

Even I, as an atheist, think these things can get stretched beyond the point of absurdity.

[bryant69]

54. If that isn't the point to this post

Than I don't know what it is.

[DeepModem Mom]

62. Thank you.

[Wickerman]

5. Jesus looked like a nice all american rock star

so stop saying that!

[undeterred]

10. Jesus probably looked like an ordinary Jewish guy

and had a sense of humor too

[DeepModem Mom]

23. LOL!

[DanCa]

31. Howard Dean is a Jewish Doctor who shakes up conservatives

Just like Jesus was in the new testament. Maybe thats why the want to nail Dean to the cross on everything he does or says.

[renaissanceguy]

37. Last time I heard,

Dean is a Christian. His wife, however, is Jewish.

[DanCa]

40. I thought dean converted to his wifes faith

after being a lasped episcopallian. If I am in error I appologize

[dogday]

59. He has stated many times he is a Christian

and even sites passages in the Bible, old and new testiment...

[CatWoman]

51. come on baby!!

light MY fire!!!

:D

[Spider Jerusalem]

6. Eh. They think Jesus was a blue-eyed blond guy. Like in all the pictures.

If he existed, he certainly wasn't black, btw; he probably would've looked not too different from a modern Arab, considering that he supposedly came from ancient Judea, in the Middle East...which is an awfully long way from sub-Saharan Africa.

[DeepModem Mom]

This Christian knows it's an impossibility he was blue-eyed and blonde. nt

[jwirr]

35. Yes, there are religious paintings by

Hook that portray him as I would picture him. He was Jewish and of the dark skin/eye coloring that was prominent in the middle east at the time. By the way I am very surprised that I am prejudiced. I guess I will have to denounce my Indian-black grandchildren!

[K-W]

60. We cant know what he would have looked like without paternal liniage

or an explenation of the genetic influence of the holy spirit.

[xultar]

8. I was just saying that to a friend on Sunday! OMG! Psychic DU.

[DanCa]

9. Actually the coloring books are making jesus look alot like.....

Hulk Hogan. "Whatcha going do when christianity runs wild on you." I also dont like how they picture Jesus as a puny guy strapped to the cross. Remember he was a carpenter so he must have been large in physical stature as well.
As far as the color I think it could have been well within gods power to transform himself into your ideal image of him or her.
Note am not knocking ones any belifes and I dont particulary care what color god is. Just voicing my opinion have agreat day Danny.

[seabeyond]

11. both boys challenge christian teachers at christian school

in an academic enviroment that jesus is black. 4 teachers with oldest son. 1 teacher has thought about it and she believes son was right. two teachers, the more they thought about ya agreed with son. and one teacher, saying now that she thinks about, enthusiastically telling son he is probably right. and why have i never thought about it, but ya.....

then my youngest the teacher he talked to said she has thought about it and yes jesus is probably black.

this is a fundamentalist school in texas

son did make clear, he only talked to the teachers that would be accepting in this question

my point, he had three teachers 4th grade and third grade teacher, he thought would be open to the question

[yankeeinlouisiana]

12. Other than the Bible

is the man Jesus mentioned anywhere else? In any other ancient text?

Serious question.

[RethugAssKicker]

15. I agee... he may never even existed!

[seabeyond]

26. it is the son of god that is questioned, most all claims he existed n/t

[DeepModem Mom]

28. That is completely false. We know very little about him...

but we do know that he was executed by the Romans.

[Johonny]

39. I agree

There is no historical account of his life, teachings or death. The best we have is possible 2 hand accounts. Needless to say we then have no clue what he looked like.

[Spider Jerusalem]

16. No contemporary sources, no.

The only near-contemporary source has been shown to be a later forgery (an obvious textual interpolation that exists in only one known relatively early copy of Flavius Josephus' "Antiquities of the Jews" from the second century CE).

[jwirr]

65. I have posted the quote from this and I also

wondered why a Jewish historian would so blatantly praise Jesus. I was told that the quote was changed from a simple statement the in such and such time a radical named Jesus was crucified. This would seem more likely. Where is the link to the forgery data?

[Spider Jerusalem]

70. Here you go...

This presents the arguments for considering the passage a forgery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

[K-W]

17. The bible isnt an ancient text.

It is a collection of ancient texts. And there are other texts, not included in the bible that mention Jesus.

It cannot currently be proven that he existed but it is not considered entirely unlikely that someone existed in that time and place that originated the stories.

[DeepModem Mom]

27. It's historically documented that he was executed by the Romans --

there'e not much else.

[progressivebydesign]

38. Where outside of the Bible is that documented? n/t

[DeepModem Mom]

41. Forget it -- I don't care.

[Kraklen]

79. Not really.

There's alledgedly a document that some guy named Joseph from Nazareth that the Romans crucified. But there were lots of guys named Joseph that the Romans crucified.

[DeepModem Mom]

81. Fine. The books I've read about Jesus as a social revolutionary...

which concede that we know for sure little about him except his execution must be wrong. I concede that the man may never have existed. Happy now?

[Kraklen]

86. I really couldn't care.

But it's good you've got an open mind about it.

[jwirr]

58. Yes

"Josephus: Complete Works". This man was a Jewish historian. The book includes: Life of Flavius Josephus; The Antiquities of the Jews; The Wars of the Jews; Discourse Concerning Hades; Seven Dissertations; Table of Jewish Weights and Measures; List of Ancient Testimonies and Records Cited by Josephus and Texts of the Old Testament Parallel to Josephus' Histories. It is translated by William Whiston with a foreword by Sanford LaSor. It reads, "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, -a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both the many Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at first did not forsake him, for appeared to them alive again the third day, as the Divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day." Josephus ben Matthias, the author, was born the year Caligula acceded to the throne of Rome AD 37 and died sometime after 100 AD.

This is one of the proofs that Christians use to indicate that he did exist.

[H2O Man]

13. I don't think

that many people believe Jesus was a blue-eyed blond man. He would have had to have been a brown-skinned person. If one reads Malcolm X's autobiography, they will find that Malcolm made this point more than 50 years ago. No one seriously contests it, and Malcolm found that most Christians he came into contact knew this. Hence, to answer your question, it already has happened, and hasd had zero effect on Christianity. It is not an issue to anyone with an IQ above the single digits.

[K-W]

25. It entirely depends on who his father was.

It isnt impossible that he could have gotten some aryan features, but certainly unlikely. Mary would have probably resembled a middle easterner now.

[H2O Man]

97. And if his father was Iroquois

he would have northeastern American Indian features. However, he didn't. His parents are identified as being Nazareans.

[RethugAssKicker]

47. maybe... but if you changed the pictures

and statues in the churches... Would they still worship him.. I think not!

[H2O Man]

98. You are entitled

to your opinion. However, should you read Malcolm, you would know what pictures they have.

[DeepModem Mom]

66. Well said, H2O Man: "not an issue to anyone with an IQ above...

the single digits."

[laureloak]

19. It's his teachings that matter.

[DeepModem Mom]

32. Hi, laureloak -- welcome to DU.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeepModem Mom]

33. Yeah, I've about had it with this stuff.

I spend a lot of time and effort at DU; I love it. But I am an occasional church-goer, a member of one of the more liberal Protestant denominations, and, I'm sorry, this set me off today. I'm tired of coming on the board and finding it full of anti-Christian posts that have nothing to do with the dangerous power of the Christian Right.

[RethugAssKicker]

48. I simply asked a question

[undeterred]

53. You asked a loaded question

which made no distinctions among Christians and implied that all Christians are racist.

" Would this end the Christian religion as we know it in America? I know they would try to deny it (as they do now), but what if irrefutable proof was discovered...What do you think would happen?"

[DeepModem Mom]

55. IMO, the question was flamebait, intended to...

start a barrage of anti-Christian responses. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your purpose.

[Spider Jerusalem]

34. Well, I live in the South.

Georgia, to be precise. Land of Southern Baptists and Holy Rollers. My experience of Christians is such that what I said applies to those I know best and have most exposure to, and most likely to a sizeable number of the staggering FORTY PERCENT of Americans who identify themselves as evangelicals. I'm sure you'll agree that the worst Christians are typically also the most vocal and visible. THat's something you'll have to take into account; o0bviously, there are moderate, intelligent, educated Christians who are not like this, but wheere I am, at least, they're FAR from the majority.

[undeterred]

42. Land of Mike Malloy

It must be frustrating.

Augustine of Hippo - one of the greatest thinkers in the history of the Church - was probably black but there is no reference to his race that I know of.

[lectrobyte]

22. It would probably hurt him. After all, a lot of the rednecks I know

are pretty pissed that Jesus is carrying a commie AK-47 instead of an All-American gun like an M-16 or something.

[DanCa]

29. actually that figure looks more like Gandalf the white.

[lectrobyte]

49. Yeah, I guess, but I only cut and paste the URLs in an attempt to add

a little levity to an already way-too-serious reality.

[Totally Committed]

30. I doubt it would make a dent...

The Extremist, RW Evangelical "Jesus" is a figment of their imagination, anyway.

They see Jesus as condoning

**** hatred of gays and lesbians

**** denial of civil rights

**** keeping the rich, rich and the poor, poor

**** embracing the fetus while neglecting the child

**** sending our men and women off to a war that was based on a lie

**** the endorsement of torture

**** terror as a psychological tool

**** treating our returning veterans as an afterthought

**** making sure poor children of color are kept under-educated so their only option (save for jail) is as cannon-fodder in the quest for world domination

**** the condemnation of family planning on a planet that is woefully over-populated

**** The condemnation of the use of condoms in a time of AIDS

And the list goes on and on. Strikingly, their Jesus sounds nothing like the enlightened master I was taught about. The Jesus I was taught about believed in Social Justice, Equality, and Charity. And, it didn't matter what color anyone was as long as they did unto others as they would have done unto them.

TC

[zbdent]

44. That would piss off the base of the Repuke party

the KKK and neo-Nazis . . .

[gauguin57]

45. I saw a clip of an old Billy Graham crusade -- Billy pointed this out.

Billy told the assembled throng something to the effect that "Jesus did not have white skin like me, and he didn't have black skin like many of you. He was from a part of the world where he would have to have been a brown-skinned man." Or something like that.
So, the fact that Jesus was a dark-skinned Jew shouldn't be
a big friggin' shock, even to the fundies.

[K-W]

64. It isnt to serious believers.

It is to those whose relationship with christianity as well as race is superficial and rife with ignorance.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. Everybody knows that he looked like an Austrian Skier.

Just a younger version of his Daddy Yahweh - which is just the Jewish way of say Johann.

[Tsiyu]

68. If I was a Christian DUer I would be offended by this post

You might have qualified it with a "Some Christians" or "racist Christians" ( an oxymoron, because a true Christian is called to love ALL people as brothers and sisters).

The way you have stated your questions truly shows more ignorance than anything I've seen from the Christians on DU and I am frankly disgusted that this bigotry continues here.

There are MANY, MANY GOOD DEMOCRAT CHRISTIANS who are not racist, fundy, neo-con or ignorant. Pick on someone else this morning, would you?

[DeepModem Mom]

73. Thank you for this post. I don't know why this bigotry is allowed here

day after day.

[Tsiyu]

78. You're welcome

and I do not understand it either. If they posted about Jews, Muslims or Athiests this way, they would be slammed like a heavy door.

But Skinner has said he is trying to let us sort it out so I will sort it out this way:

If you insist on painting all Christians with a broad brush, you are the bigot. And this post, in my opinion, is a clear example of that ignorant prejudice.

have a good one, DMM ;)

[dogday]

72. True Christians don't care about skin color

What does it matter what color his skin was? His message was right on time and that is what he asked his disciples to spread.

[Igel]

74. The statement's worded strangely.

If Christians knew he was black, they'd be Christians that knew he was black.

They'd be wrong, of course. As for the color he would have been, there's no guarantee he wouldn't have been slightly lighter than the present-day Palestinian, or darker.

There have been African slaves imported into the area for the last few thousand years; Slavic slaves were imported for maybe 700 years; and the Ottoman Empire wasn't adverse to the trick that Ivan the Terrible had, which he picked up from the Horde--if a group causes trouble, uproot most of them and put them elsewhere. Sorting out the Sea Peoples', Egyptians', Arabians', Hittites', Canaanites', Assyrians', Greeks', and and Romans' contributions ... ick.

Blond, blue-eyed ... highly implausible. It crops up in the area, very rarely, but that's probably due almost entirely to the imported European slaves and Ottoman reshuffling.

I'd guess light brown skin, brown eyed, brown haired. Probably 5' 5" or so, with the usual non-buff but still moderately athletic looking physique that non-back-breaking manual labor and an only sufficient diet usually imparts. And with bad teeth; I'd guess fairly short hair, maybe a beard (trimmed or not, who knows?).

He was most likely "Caucasian" and therefore "white", according to some old anthropological views; under older racist views, since he wasn't pale he would have been negatively labelled "brown", but now, for present-day political purposes, positively labelled 'brown'.

[Larkspur]

77. Jesus was of Semitic and possible Greek descent

so he would not have had black skin but a permanent tanned or dark brown skin. He would have looked more like a modern day Palestinian or Arab, not Brad Pitt or Mel Gibson.

[sleipnir]

80. "Black" is also misleading.

He wasn't black in the terms that we think of here in America. He didn't look like your average 5th-8th generation African American. Actually, many scientists believe Jesus looked more like your average Iranian/Iraqi than any other modern race.

Here's a picture from a really cool BBC documentary on the search for the true picture of Jesus. These scientists engaged in a large amount of reasearch and computer composites of what they believed the true image of Jesus would have been when he was alive.

Here it
is:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/features/world_religions/christianity_life.shtml

[noonwitch]

82. He wasn't black or white, but somewhere in between

He was a mid-eastern person. They tend to be dark caucasians, with dark hair and eyes. Although, like any other group, there are a lot of varieties within. The roman and greek gene pools probably got mixed up in there somewhere, so a blue-eyed israeli probably was rare, but not unheard of.

[jokerman93]

85. Black as in Negroid?

Or black as in darker than Pat Robertson? Yehoshua HaNotzri (Jesus) was by all accounts a Semite. Dark but not "black" the way American's think of "Black" (African).

Are you suggesting he (Jesus) was actually Black African? He wasn't. Neither were the Egyptians - as told according to some other modern folklore.

OK. Flame away!

:-)

[RethugAssKicker]

91. He had skin of bronze and hair of wool..

Is not that mentioned somewhere in the bible?

[Modem Butterfly]

87. In Revelations, Jesus is described as a black man

With feet like brass and hair like wool (paraphrasing here).

[jokerman93]

89. Sounds Symbolic

Revelations is a Kabbalistic text - not a prophesy about the end of the world. (IMHO - an opinion shared by many Jewish Kabbalists.)

[smirkymonkey]

88. I have it on good authority that Jesus looked just like Fabio.

[GeekMonkey]

90. I wish it would!

[GeekMonkey]

93. My sister is married to a Pentecostal minister

They do 'gag' gifts at christmas using a name-drawing scheme. It's common in their practice to keep a gag gift to give the next christmas

The longest running 'gag' gift, and the one they find the most hilarious, is a painting of Jesus as a dark skinned man.

But, what do I know? I'm just an atheist that christians think is going to be burned forever by a magic man that loves me.

[Ariana Celeste]

96. In all fairness,

most Christians I know wouldn't care less. Jesus is Jesus, what does the skin color on pictures of him matter? They don't worship Jesus because he was a good white man, they worship him and love him because of what he stands for and what he did (dying for their sins and whatnot.)

As an Atheist, I would be interested in the reaction of the Catholic Church (No, not Catholics- the Vatican) and of extremist "Christians" such as Phelps, Falwell, Dobson, etc.

My dear little old Gramma is a Southern Baptist. She doesn't have pictures of Jesus around her home. No crosses. She has a large Bible that never leaves the top of her dresser. She can't go to church, so her Pastor, one of the best men I have ever met, visits her every week. Color would mean nothing to her. She has Jesus in her heart. She gives to charity every Christmas, and as often as her pocket allows. Anytime a friend or family member has ever needed her for anything, she has done everything she could. During WW2 she wrote letters to as many military men as she could, to help them get through the days.

My dear Gramma has always been proof to me that there are many, *many* true Christians out there, who take the red print seriously and don't worry a whole lot about the rest. She is a great woman and accepts my atheism, and has accepted every other path I have been interested in. Because she refuses to judge people.

Christianity, truly being Christ like, is alive in many people. There may be a few bigots who lose religion over a stupid thing like color of skin. But trust me, that would be a minority. And I have not a problem with that. It very well may take the extremist assholes out of the picture.

I know a couple of Fundie assholes in my family who would probably passionately deny it. But that's their problem. Besides, I don't think Jesus would have been black, I believe he would be Middle Eastern.

[The Magistrate]

100. Locking

This is a broad brush attack against Christians.