All of a sudden, I am very very nervous about Howard Dean

[WilliamPitt]

and it pisses me off. You all know I am a Kerry guy, but Dean was running about a nanosecond behind in my support-o-meter. Clark's entry makes this a three-man dogfight imho, and frankly, I was damned happy to have all three going.

You all also know that I am an avowed ABB person. I've run 'You Rule!' threads for Dean, Clark, Kerry, Kucinich, and another that universally praises all of them in detail. I'm saying all this to hopefully defray the inevitable "Bashing!" accusations to come.

I'm not bashing. Dean the candidate is solid gold on many levels. His NRA standing pulls the fangs of the NRA in the South and West, which is excellent beyond measure in the electoral realm today. His war stance was awesome. Other stuff I'm not sure on, but can certainly live with.

But this scares the shit out of me, and I need it explained:

The Doctor is In
Rolling with people-powered Howard Dean from the highs and lows of spring to the triumphs of summer
by Jamie Wolf
AUG. 29 - SEPT. 4, 2003

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/41/features-wolf.php

(snip)

Energy is what Dean and his campaign have these days. In one two-day period in July, they were able to bring in more than $500,000 over the Internet, double the amount raised by Dick Cheney at a North Carolina dinner for Bush that the campaign used as a challenge. Over the past week Dean embarked on his Sleepless Summer tour, which put him in six cities in six days to emphasize that while Bush is taking his ease at his Texas ranch, regular Americans don’t have the luxury of a month’s vacation. Crowds — and cash — continue to outstrip expectations, with some 40,000 attending rallies and more than $1 million raised. (Dean will appear in Los Angeles September 29 and 30.)

“Well, it’s been a great pleasure,” Dean says as he exits the car at Burbank Airport. (“Are we horribly late? . . . What time is wheels-up? In 15 minutes? Really?”) We’ve spent the rest of the ride-along discussing the future. As Edwards and Lieberman and Gephardt appear to fall back, and Bob Graham’s campaign seems to have difficulty getting off the ground, the calculus seems more and more to involve Dean vs. Kerry. But Wesley Clark still is an unresolved question.

When I ask Dean about Clark, his response is characteristically two-fold. He praises him with sincere fervor: “I know Wes Clark, he’s a very good human being, and he’s got an enormous amount of integrity.” At the same time, on the subject of Clark entering the race, he shows more than a glint of steel. “It’s going to be very hard to start late,” he says, “and think you’re going to do well in Iowa and New Hampshire. It’s going to be incredibly hard. I mean, we’ve already got 39,000 people working for us all around the country . . . I really do believe — and I think about this — They’re not going to suddenly just go away. That’s not gonna happen.”

...more...

That is not good. That is more than not good. That sucks ass. That is a threat. Someone in another thread tried to tell me this isn't a threat, but I don't buy it. "I want to get this nomination, and if I don’t . . . these kids are not transferrable. I can’t just go out and say, ‘Okay, so I didn’t win the nomination, so go ahead and vote for the Democrats’" is a fucking threat. Period. Don't tell me I've taken that out of context. And don't say, "What about the other candidates doing the same!" I'm talking about Howard Dean here, and I am mortally sure Kerry and Clark will line up with the eventual nominee.

Dean can be piss-poor on all of the issues that are dear to me, and he'd still have my unqualified support after the nomination because he is light years better than Bush. But this is utterly unacceptable to me. This is my back-breaker.

We need to win this thing. Period. Central to that winning will be ALL the candidates lining up in support of the nominee, and helping to get their supporters to do the same. Anything else is red fucking death.

Fuck this. I'm actually furious now. I had no idea this was said, and I need to have it explained to me. I'm an absolute whore on every issue, because I want a Democrat to win. This, if true, is bullshit and dangerous and wrong. Can someone straighten me out here?

[AWD]

1. My translation...

...he's not saying he won't push us towards the eventual nominee. He's saying we're VERY loyal and we might have a hard time doing it ourselves if we have to go back to old school politics.

And he's right.

There's A LOT of people who are interested in politics again because of the way Dean has brought them back. Take him out of the equation, and you lose a lot of that passion that drove Dean to the top.

Me, I'll vote for the Dem whoever it is....but I can't say the same for the numerous people I've met atDean meetups who have never been interested in (or donated money to) a campaign before.

[WilliamPitt]

6. I think that's a copout, AWD

If he gets 'taken out of the equation,' it will be because he lost the nomination. If his supporters take their ball and go home, then the whole campaign was an ego-trip and not in the best interest of the country.

[seventhson]

22. That is a low blow, Will

If the folks who came BACK to the Dems from, say, Nader or even came over from McCain are SICK of the DLC/PNAC centrist candidates like Kerry and Clark then they MIGHT go third party. They may say to hell with the DEMS as many have done in the past.

It would NOT be an ego thing. It would be an assessment that democracy is basically sold out to the right wing and PNAC/DLC/MPRI operators

[AWD]

30. I don't think that was low...

....he's concerned, and with great reason.

But I should also point out, Will, that the article you cite is quite old. He mentions 37,000 workers...it's over 110,000 now.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

159. Dean is DLC

The Dean campaign shouldn't get away with labeling the other candidates as DLC/PNAC or the newest boogeyman MPRI. Dean is DLC, he agrees with the DLC on 99% of the issues, and he's a wealthy, establishment, aristocratic Democratic centrist, like most of the candidates.

[AWD]

24. But that's pinning it on him

...and not the supporters who are finally awake to the quandary we are in.

A guy I work with on the Dean campaign, Craig, has never been REMOTELY interested in politics. But he's leading Dean For America here in Canton now.

While I KNOW he'll vote for whoever the Dem nominee is, I also KNOW he'll not have that same passion if it's not Dean. The urge to push Bush out is LARGE becuase of people like Dean, and with or without him, the push will still be there. But the face of politics will have less of a lustre to many people if they see the same old faces and same old games satring them in the face.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

It's Not Pinning the Supporters' Ultimate Action on Dean

It's pinning the responsibility for Dean to do his utmost to support enthusiastically the eventual nominee.

So long as Dean does that, his conscience is clear and Will's (and many others') concern dissipates.

My recollection was that he did say he'd do this. Does anyone have the cite?

DTH

[WilliamPitt]

35. Which makes this kind of Dean supporter, frankly, useless

To say that Dean has helped people realize how fucked up things are, and then to say people won't help to fix it unless Dean is the guy, is quicksand. He's got a one in three cnance of winning.

[sangh0]

39. Dean said it. Who should we pin it on?

Dean should have said "Of course *I* will support whoever the nominee is"

[AWD]

65. Please go read the explanation again.

Please go read the explanation again. Twice. Maybe you'll see what he was actually saying.

I explained what I saw in it, and you just choose to ignore it.

[sangh0]

68. I saw it

He said he couldn't ask his supporters to vote for someone else.

[AWD]

115. He did, huh????

(http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html):
CALLER: Hi. Governor Dean, I have been so impressed by you ever since I saw you on "Meet the Press." And I'm going to my first Dean meeting this week. And my question for you is that many Democrats believe that if not for Ralph Nader staying in the election that we wouldn't have George Bush as a president.

So my question to you is, if you do not get the Democratic nomination, will you still run on the independent ticket?

DEAN: No, I will not.

CALLER: If so, how will that impact the upcoming race?

DEAN: I will not run as independent. I will support the nominee. It is essential that George Bush not be re-elected for the future of this country. It is essential for our economy. It's essential, so we can regain the respect we had around the world. And I will under no circumstances run as a third party and independent. I will back the nominee. I hope I am the nominee because I can bring about half those votes that voted for Ralph Nader back into the party. That's how we are going to win. And I think at this point there is no other evidence that any of the other candidates can do that and I think that's why I'm the most likely to beat George Bush.

Can we hear you backtrack now, or will you just slink off???

[sangh0]

141. So what?

I see nothing about Dean saying he would ask his supporters to support the Dem nominee.

He said he couldn't ask his supporters to vote for someone else.

[AWD]

113. How about this???

(http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html):
CALLER: Hi. Governor Dean, I have been so impressed by you ever since I saw you on "Meet the Press." And I'm going to my first Dean meeting this week. And my question for you is that many Democrats believe that if not for Ralph Nader staying in the election that we wouldn't have George Bush as a president.

So my question to you is, if you do not get the Democratic nomination, will you still run on the independent ticket?

DEAN: No, I will not.

CALLER: If so, how will that impact the upcoming race?

DEAN: I will not run as independent. I will support the nominee. It is essential that George Bush not be re-elected for the future of this country. It is essential for our economy. It's essential, so we can regain the respect we had around the world. And I will under no circumstances run as a third party and independent. I will back the nominee. I hope I am the nominee because I can bring about half those votes that voted for Ralph Nader back into the party. That's how we are going to win. And I think at this point there is no other evidence that any of the other candidates can do that and I think that's why I'm the most likely to beat George Bush.

Still think he never said it????

[sangh0]

144. Dean didn't say

that he would ask HIS SUPPORTERS to vote for the Dem nominee, which is what I said in my earlier post.

He said he couldn't ask his supporters to vote for someone else.

The quote you just posted says NOTHINg about Dean asking HIS SUPPORTERS to vote for the Dem nominee.

[bearfartinthewoods]

29. this came up a couple weeks ago. i think you were out of town

or else you are just doing your master's bidding and dredging up old rovian talking points that you got of of freepville as you exucute the secret counter-counterspin of the BFEE.
:evil grin:

[WilliamPitt]

38. Yeah, I got the transmission in my brain chip this morning

Woke me right up. :)

[flpoljunkie]

36. Will, Dean has also said he was in it all the way to November...

One has to also wonder what this means.

[Romberry]

194. There is no wondering.

It means exactly what he said. He's taking it all the way to the convention. Why? To hold the party leaderships feet to the fire and to be sure that all his hard work and the work of his supporters does not go to waste.

Please go smear someone else. Try Dubya.

[calimary]

160. Frankly, I COULD find myself becoming insulted by that. I won't, but

AS A DEAN SUPPORTER (yes, I'm shouting), I'm not exactly thrilled by the suggestion that, if he loses the nomination, I am going to take my ball and go home and pee on the Dems' hopes for the general election the way the Greens did. That's just hitting a little bit too low, Will.

Do you really think that we Deanies are such spoiled sports that we'd do that? Do you really think we would decide not to care any longer just because our guy didn't go the distance, so that bush would wind up gaining by our departure? Perhaps you've read some of my posts (or maybe you haven't) but those who have would probably tell you I sound like one of those who is yearning for bush's removal, by the hand of WHOMEVER!!!!! If it's Dean, so much the better. But if it's not, then I don't care who carries the ball for us, as long as they wind up carrying it all the way into the White House.

That's like slamming me because we both agree on chocolate but you're pissed because I'd rather have milk chocolate and you're a nougat person. The point is, we both still like chocolate.

I'd hope you'd trust us Dean supporters more than that, Will.

[calimary]

155. I think you're right about this, AWD. That's my read on it.

Over and over at Dean meetups - and, by the way NOT at Dean meetups (like, out on the sidewalks, in the stores, on a construction site I know, at the karate school, in my kids' school parking lots, everywhere, i hear over and over and over that Dean has said or done something that's clicked with people the way nobody else has. Over and over I hear people saying they've never felt like giving money to a candidate before, or getting active on behalf of a candidate, but Dean just flicked a switch in them, and they're all his.

If he doesn't get the nomination, I bet they ARE transferable, because they're all fired up for the purposes of finding someone who can realistically send little george back to Crawford. By then, the "Sorting Hat" of presidential primary politics will have narrowed the field.

WILL - understand (heck, I don't have to tell YOU this), politics is a contact sport. The ultimate rough-n-tumble. There's lots of bravado out there. Frankly, I'm not sure you'll even read this, no less respond to it (which has been a rarity when I've posted stuff to you - and that's okay - I'm not complaining), but I hope you realize this. Dean has given a LOT of us hope. And, if I remember correctly, he was the first one. Yes, Dennis Kucinich was out there early-on, especially against the war, but Howard Dean spoke much more loudly and clearly to me, and there was no early vacillation on the issue of a woman's right to choose (another forced "litmus test" issue for me, sorry to say), as there has been with Kucinich. So my natural instincts were to prefer Howard Dean.

You have to know that if Dean does not get the nomination, he'll be the first to endorse the transferral. From what-all else he's said, that's my conclusion. He's articulated the popular rage, as another Howard - Howard Beale (from the movie "Network") did - and he certainly articulated mine. The bottom-line idea, that Dean shares, is to get bush OUT OF OUR WHITE HOUSE!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

2. My Take Is That Dean Was Just Telling It Like It Is

What he says is probably true: lots of the people who he's brought into the campaign won't just roll over if he says so.

I think this was an off-the-cuff remark that comes off worse in print than it does in person. Since that time, Dean has certainly indicated he would enthusiastically support the Dem nominee, IIRC.

DTH

[WilliamPitt]

4. Can I see evidence of that?

I usually take people's word, but like I said, this is the back-breaker for me.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

5. Don't Have It Handy

But I'm sure a Dean-supporter will be happy to pony that cite up for you! :-)

DTH

[WilliamPitt]

7. I'm hoping so, too.

[AWD]

11. I cannot give evidence...

....but I hope my word is good enough for you.

When I met with Governor Dean, one of the things he discussed with me was the need to remove the right wing from power. He encouraged me to campaign hard.

Then, during his speech, he went into great detail the need to bring down Bush. I cannot possible believe he'd back down from those beliefs if John Kerry is the nominee, or Wes Clark, et all.

[Classical_Liberal]

15. All of the party bigwigs are saying Dean is pulling nonvoters

and people who aren't into traditional politics. It is more or less a tenent at Salon.com.

[WilliamPitt]

20. And that's great

but if those traditional non-voters don't vote for the eventual nominee, they may as well have stayed in bed.

[AWD]

62. Well, actually....

My hope is that these people are in the game early enough that they will SEE just how bad things are, and their eyes will be opened enough to stick with the ABB plan if Dean is not the nominee.

And that job is up to hardore Dems who are within the Dean movement...like me.

Trust me, we will carry many along for the ride if Dean is not the guy. Dean has opened their eyes, we will bring them into the rest of the game.

Of course, you needn't worry. Dean will get the nomination, and all will be right with the world.

[Eloriel]

66. Well, Will, it'll be up to the candidate who wins the nomination

to keep them up and out of bed, won't it?

What is it with this "you owe us" shit among some Democrats? NO, we DON'T owe anyone anything. They OWE US -- something to vote FOR. Some reason to believe. Some evidence that they give a shit. A pulse would be nice, too, not to mention a spine. Not to mention coming up with their OWN good campaign ideas and soundbytes for a change.

Get over it. I ain't voting just because there's a D behind someone's name. Been there, done that. Sick of what I got for it. Sick of what YOU and every other voter got me for it. And if Bush gets re-elected (assuming we get the voting machines problem fixed), you can just go see that losing Dem candidate about the whole thing. It's up to THEM to BE electable. This ain't a loyalty test, it's an election for who best represents us.

Eloriel

[sangh0]

74. Dean owes the Democratic Party

but the piker doesn't want to make good on it.

I ain't voting just because there's a D behind someone's name

No one has asked you to do that in this thread (or anywhere else on DU) The subject is what DEAN will do if he doesn't win the nomination.

[AWD]

96. No

...the subject is to explain what Dean meant. Will wrote it, I read it, you spun it to your own hatred of Dean.

[sangh0]

145. No spin

Dean said "I can’t just go out and say, ‘Okay, so I didn’t win the nomination, so go ahead and vote for the Democrats’"

The ONLY way to interpret that is that Dean will NOT ask his supporters to vote Dem if Dean is not the nominee.

[stickdog]

209. Wrong. What Dean's saying is that he can't just graft his grassroots

activists onto a boring, top down establishment campaign.

"I can’t just go out and say, ‘Okay, so I didn’t win the nomination, so go ahead and vote for the Democrats.'"

Get it now?

He knows he'll have to LEAD many of his newly energized volunteers and supporters to the voting booth to pull that establishment DLC lever kicking and screaming -- and this will probably only work if he gives these people something exciting to stay involved with.

Get it now?

No, I didn't think so.

But everyone else did.

[DemBones DemBones]

219. Excuse me, but how is a candidate who constantly has to be

interpreted for others going to lead?


It's interesting that you asked twice "Get it now?" Dean supporters constantly talk about people "getting it" in regard to Dean, with the implication that if we're not supporting him, we don't "get it."

The other possibility, never mentioned by Deanies, is that you Dean supporters are the ones who don't "get it."

You folks don't get it that Dean is just another politician, right of center except for some social issues (his hardcore support of abortion, his sort-of opposition to the invasion of Iraq, his signing of a bill passed by his state's supreme court that legalized civil unions for same sex couples.)

Dean thinks:

-- universal health care can't be done
(caving to the GOP Congress before the election -- failing to acknowledge that Congress can also be changed in 2994),

-- the FDA needs to study whether marijuana is medically useful
(what will they study that's not known now? exact biochemical mechanisms? what does that matter to people in pain?),

-- NAFTA can be "fixed,"
(is NAFTA worth fixing?)

-- the Patriot Act can be "fixed,"
(is Patriot worth fixing?)

-- GM foods are safe
(though they've never been studied),

-- the Pentagon's budget shouldn't be cut
(despite evidence of waste, monies unaccounted for, vast amounts of money being spent for highly questionable weapons systems)

I "get" all those positions and I've studied what he says and what he did in Vermont. I think he's too timid on some issues, hasn't been consistent on many (including the war) and is far more to the right than I want a Democratic president to be.

Joe Trippi has done a great job with Dean's campaign, obviously, though he hasn't been able to assmilate me. When people are really impressed by campaign commonplaces like a politician taking off his coat when he speaks or rhetoric about "involving the grassroots" (the "open source" campaign), it's a sign of a great campaign, a lot of naive and impressionable new voters, mass hypnosis, or "all of the above."

[stickdog]

228. That post was full of shit and you know it, DemBones.

How is it that 80% of the about 500 Kucinich supporters I know voted for Nader in 2000?

Can you guarantee that none of them will vote Green if, for example, General Clark wins the Democratic nomination?

[LeahMira]

126. I think you are right, Eloriel

What is it with this "you owe us" shit among some Democrats? NO, we DON'T owe anyone anything. They OWE US -- something to vote FOR. Some reason to believe. Some evidence that they give a shit. A pulse would be nice, too, not to mention a spine. Not to mention coming up with their OWN good campaign ideas and soundbytes for a change.


If it turns out that the Democrats nominate Lieberman, for instance, who is someone that I see as not all that different from Republicans of the more moderate type, I will be extremely disappointed. Of course Lieberman would be better than Bush! But when we have candidates who are just better and candidates who are head and shoulders better, why not go for the candidate who gives us the most "reason to believe"?

If Lieberman is nominated, I would probably support him. I do think he's a basically good guy. But his nomination would also tell me that the Democratic Party isn't willing to challenge some of the basic premises... that they are more interested in gradual change than in change now. I think we know which way to go, and I don't think we need to be shy about it.

Does anyone think that Dean would go off and form his own party? Or hook up with the Greens? Now that would be an interesting situation! Not the best time to do it when the most important thing, IMO, is to get rid of the Bush gang, but I do think this country needs a strong third party one of these days... more so if the Democrats fail to act pretty boldly this time around.

[HFishbine]

171. Amen Eloriel. Amen!

Damn straight. There are a hundred different ways a candidate can differentiate him or herself from Bush. Anybody but Bush is not good enough.

[StopTheMorans]

23. my friend Matt

who was at the rally yesterday (I didn't see him, he called me afterwards, he was at work and decided to go at the last minute after he had told me he couldn't make it) DESPISED politics when I met him last October. He was disgusted with the 2 party system, yet didn't vote for Nader b/c he didn't think the Green Party was a viable option (he has yet to really explain this to me, but I think it is b/c he is more of an independent that I am). After I showed him one of Dean's speeches (around the end of April), right when I decided to support Dean, he was really excited too with what Dean had to say. Then, we watched a Dean speech at one of the meet-ups, and the man has been gung-ho about Dean ever since. This is what I think Dean might have been referring to. My friend hates (or hated) the 2-party system, and didn't want to take part in it. But he saw something in Dean that made him want to believe in politics again, and to believe that he could make a difference. So if Dean drops, I really don't know if people like this (the 50% of our country who didn't vote last time around) can be counted on to vote for the dem. nominee. Let me end by stating that he is a registered (as of June)independent. I can't speak for Dean, but I'm guessing this is what he was trying to say.

[Cha]

54. Thanks for this post about "your friend Matt"....It is amazing what

Dean has done to make People like your friend come into the process!

I trust Dean to do the right thing If he doesn't get the nominee!

Right now Dean is a little busy working his ass off to get the nomination, himself! :kick:

[Eloriel]

43. Will, I saw him myself in a speech (or debate?)

launch into a whole thing about how horible Bush has been for this country and that --

Ah, I think he was asked if he'd run as an Independent and his response was a definitive, unambiguous, resounding NO. And then he launched into the Bush thing, that he'd support whoever got the nomination, and encourage everyone to do the same.

His remark has to be understood in the context of his campaign. He has brought into the political process an enormous number of people who have NEVER been involved in politics before. Usually, when he asks at functions, something like 50% or more raise their hands when he asks who's new to political involvement. They have been completely turned off to politics before this. They joined his campaign for one reason: they, like me, see him as the first "politician" who has the integrity and spine to "tell it like it is," which included being the first to tell the truth about the Bush administration, the war, etc., etc.

Dean is right: that loyalty, even for a vote as important as this, is NOT easily transferrable. The people who have joined his campaign are among the more clear-eyed of Americans who have seen the political process for what it is: a huge scam, with unprincipled people who can't EVEN bother to listen to us running the show. They see a big difference in Dean, and that's what they want. He can -- and will (has already promised) -- encourage otherwise should he not get the nomination. But there's absolutely no guarantee.

Because as much as I love the guy (Dean), I don't think he could get me to vote for either Kerry or Clark. It'll be up to those two candidates themselves to make the difference and earn my vote -- and they show no sign of that so far.

Eloriel

[WilliamPitt]

55. Thanks, Eloriel

That makes me feel better. I appreciate it.

BUT we're going to have to agree to disagree on the relative merits of supporting the nominee if it is not Dean. I can't tell you how important an issue that is to me. We've been round and round about this, and your position is as cemented as mine. Personally, it scares me to think that Dean will have fired up all these people to help change things, and they will go and bail if they don't get their way.

The "I" vs. "We" thing again. If this happens, I will suffer a catastrophic loss of respect for Dean people. That's just how it is for me.

[Eloriel]

79. Well, I responded upthread my feelings on that

said a little more stridently than this: Yes, we can agree to disagree on the ABB position. Most people here adopt it. I don't. I still maintain that who gets nominated (assuming the voting machine problem is fixed) and who gets elected is up to the candidates themselves.

Eloriel

[Cha]

63. Thanks, Eloriel, ..I was hoping that you would be around to

give us your own particular, articulate view on this!

I know how strongly you feel about this.

[sangh0]

67. Take a look at this thread

which indicates that an overwhelming majority of DUers (a large portion of which are Dean supporters) would vote for the Dem, even if it's not their fave candidate

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=395401

[AWD]

69. Excellent!

Because as much as I love the guy (Dean), I don't think he could get me to vote for either Kerry or Clark. It'll be up to those two candidates themselves to make the difference and earn my vote -- and they show no sign of that so far.

that was the best possible way to explain it. Thanks, Eloriel!

[NashVegas]

51. Well Here's One

Although I can't honestly say I'm 100% committed to Dean, what *does* draw me to him as a candidate more than anything is his push to remind us all about 'government by the people of the people for the people.' ie, Democracy. The vibes of elitism & cynicism hang heavy in the air over most of the other candidates, IMO.

There is at least one Dem candidate who, if this person wins the nomination, I'd rather vote for Bush and make the eagle SCREAM for fundamental change, before it's too late and we revert to feudalism.

[gully]

101. Will is there evidence Kerry will ask his supporters to back the nominee?

I think it's premature to ask anyone to spend a lot of time on that issue. Especially the front runner.

[blm]

139. Kerry supporters tend to be longtime, engaged Democrats.

Why on earth would they threaten to leave the Democrats?

[gully]

184. You missed the point n/t...

[DemBones DemBones]

200. No, YOU missed the point. Dean SAID he couldn't tell his

supporters to vote for the Democrats if he's not the nominee. Kerry has NOT said anything like that and neither has any other candidate. Dean is too loose with his mouth and this time he showed a lack of loyalty to the party and a lack of loyalty to the people who support him because they want a change.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

9. It shows where his heart really is

I'm afraid.

[Cha]

18. Thanks Dove!

This is my feeling, too! But short of asking Dean, himself...will his supporters "take their ball and go home"...I don't know how to say it any other way ..Time will tell and we can refer back and see what the contrast is.

[WilliamPitt]

26. There'sa not a quote, a link a statement anywhere

to refute this crap?

[bicentennial_baby]

3. I'm glad you brought this up

I would also like to hear what people are feeling about this statement, because it sure does'nt sound good to me.

[JanMichael]

8. Yeah, from the article it sounded like e threat.

Not a very covert one either.

[wtmusic]

10. Yeah, I'll straighten you out

You're reading something into it that isn't there. Dean is talking about Clark entering the race, and now you've got him stealing votes after the convention.

Relax.

[WilliamPitt]

14. I'm not an idiot

That is a straigntforward 2+2=4 statement there.

[wtmusic]

27. I know, I know

I don't get your point then. What Dean was saying was just a simple truth to which you seem to be ascribing ulterior motives.

[Cha]

57. Exactly!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

41. 1+1=2 is more like it

1-1=0 is even better.

[Romberry]

195. Yes, it is straight forward.

Unfortunately, you've manageed to read it through distorted glasses.

I must say, this sort of crap is worthy of Matt Drudge.

[seventhson]

12. Tempest in a Teapot...Totally out of context. Rovian even

What I believe Dean meant back then when he said it was that he can not assure ANYONE that they will get his people to come on board. Nor can he guarantee that they will vote democrat (they COULD vote third party, for example)

It is a true statement.

And what he is saying is that NO ONE should take it for granted that his supporters are going to automatically support a PNAC/DLC candidate like Clark, Lieberman or Kerry.


He's f*cking right.

He has said he will support the candidate and that is the best he can do.

Is this the best the DLC/PNAC/MPRI has GOT????


That is GOOD news

[KoKo]

31. Agree with what you say, Seventh. Saw this posted somewhere else and read

it the way you did. In a way he's praising his supporters and showing that he's loyal to them by not telling them who they should or shouldn't vote for. I think that's honorable.

He's too sophisticated to make such a big gaffe as to say: "My kids are not going to vote for the Democratic nominee if it isn't my self." I can't imagine any candidate being that big an idiot except George Bush......and he would mean it when he said it!

It's just a tempest.....

[bearfartinthewoods]

87. wow...12 posts before the word rovian surfaced

can't say you weren't warned, Will . :shrug:

[WilliamPitt]

95. 'Ignored' tends to come up with that like clockwork

:)

[soleft]

13. What is your concern, that he'll run as third party?

[WilliamPitt]

17. No

That if he doesn't get the nomination, he will not line up behind the eventual nominee, that he won't kick his supporters in the ass to do the same, that this will cause a rift in the ranks and get us all fucking killed.

[noiretextatique]

120. if his is a democrat, why would he do that?

and what exactly would he hope to gain? the honor of being excoriated for several years to come, like nader?

[GalleryGod]

254. I wish he would! Please the DEANO-crat Party,isn't it?

Vanity...............

[Beetwasher]

16. Maybe he's maneuvering for a VP slot if he loses the nomination?

Leverage? I don't like that kind of talk either, but I think it's too soon to start this kind of talk anyway...

[jonnyblitz]

19. Yup. Kinda hard to spin that one into a positive

It doesn't bother me personally but I can understand why it might urk party loyalists.

[FubarFly]

21. Dean is suggesting that a lot of his supporters are disenchanted

with the Democratic leadership, and party. They are with him because they believe strongly in grassroots "people-powered" policy where their voice is heard and counts for something. If Dean is defeated, then there is no way to accurately predict if these voters will go on to support a party which has completely alienated them. Dean has no control over what anyone else will do and although he has stated that he will support the eventual Democratic nominee he can't honestly say if his supporters will follow.


Dean was being honest here, and he's %100 correct.

[WilliamPitt]

28. I would like to hear

that he will line up behind the eventual nominee, and will do all in his power to get his 'new voters' to do the same. Simple enough. He's not King Canute trying to control the tide, but he has demonstrable influence over his people.

[FubarFly]

56. I'll look for the quote.

He has stated that he will support the nominee.


As far as the promise of his voters go, don't hold your breath. Dean does not support the business as usual craven attitude of the tutu brigade.
If he told his followers that they should support any nominee no-matter-what, then he would lose his credibility as someone who wants to change the political process and reform the failed Dem leadership policies.
Disagree if you like, but if it wasn't for Howard Dean,I know that I for would have a hard time staying in the party. I will make up my own mind of who I will eventually support- most Dean supporters will do the same.

[AWD]

107. I doubt you'll hear that...

...frontrunners don't talk about what they'll do if they lose very often.

But what I know from personal experiences, is that he'll support the nominee and even endorse them.

[sangh0]

52. Dean has no "control", but doesn't he have any influence?

Even with his supporters? Is Dean willing to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING, for the Dem nominee? Or is Dean trying to influence his supporters too much to ask of Dean?

[AWD]

110. Here

(http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html):
CALLER: Hi. Governor Dean, I have been so impressed by you ever since I saw you on "Meet the Press." And I'm going to my first Dean meeting this week. And my question for you is that many Democrats believe that if not for Ralph Nader staying in the election that we wouldn't have George Bush as a president.

So my question to you is, if you do not get the Democratic nomination, will you still run on the independent ticket?

DEAN: No, I will not.

CALLER: If so, how will that impact the upcoming race?

DEAN: I will not run as independent. I will support the nominee. It is essential that George Bush not be re-elected for the future of this country. It is essential for our economy. It's essential, so we can regain the respect we had around the world. And I will under no circumstances run as a third party and independent. I will back the nominee. I hope I am the nominee because I can bring about half those votes that voted for Ralph Nader back into the party. That's how we are going to win. And I think at this point there is no other evidence that any of the other candidates can do that and I think that's why I'm the most likely to beat George Bush.

Can we hear you backtrack now, or will you just slink off???

[sangh0]

146. Dean wont ask his SUPPORTERS to vote Dem

Dean says that HE will "support the nominee", but he doesn't say that he will ask HIS SUPPORTERS to do the same.

[Romberry]

196. Gee, what the heck do you think...

..."I will support the nominee" means? WTF is wrong with you people? This whole thing is blatantly dishonest and dirty spin from an interview that took place in MARCH! If the folks here were stupid it would be one thing but you folks aren't stupid. You know better. That's what is so damn sad.

[MuseRider]

53. Hell, most of us have been

disenchanted with the dem nominees over the years but we still go out and vote for them. We have 10 wonderful people out there with 10 different views. I can't believe that Howard Dean is the god of all and that nobody else has something to offer. I doubt seriously he meant it the way it sounds but it is disturbing and I would also like an explanation. I used to be a Deanie, would be a Deanie again if he gets the nom. but I don't like the way this sounds.

[gully]

25. His campaign headquarters are looking at the story

and have said on the record that Dean will encourge his supporters to support the nominee. I am hoping there is official word soon.

I doubt any of the other candidates are on record regarding this issue however.

[eyesroll]

32. Dean has said repeatedly that he would back the eventual Democratic

nominee. Sure, that's not a guarantee -- just because he (or any other candidate) says something does not 100% guarantee it, regardless of the perceived integrity of said candidate -- but it's what we've got.

But you have to remember -- a lot of Dean's supporters (at least from the MeetUps I've been to), are non-regular voters, independents, Greens, recovering Republicans, etc. A lot of them aren't Democrats, and won't necessarily vote Democratic regardless of who the nominee is. These were never votes the Democratic party could count on. Most probably will stick around and unite behind whoever the Democrats nominate, but some won't. And HD can't snap his fingers and make them do what he wants.

It was an ill-advised statement for Dean to make, politically, but it's probably accurate.

On edit -- from the Larry King Live show, Aug 4
(http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html):
CALLER: Hi. Governor Dean, I have been so impressed by you ever since I saw you on "Meet the Press." And I'm going to my first Dean meeting this week. And my question for you is that many Democrats believe that if not for Ralph Nader staying in the election that we wouldn't have George Bush as a president.

So my question to you is, if you do not get the Democratic nomination, will you still run on the independent ticket?

DEAN: No, I will not.

CALLER: If so, how will that impact the upcoming race?

DEAN: I will not run as independent. I will support the nominee. It is essential that George Bush not be re-elected for the future of this country. It is essential for our economy. It's essential, so we can regain the respect we had around the world. And I will under no circumstances run as a third party and independent. I will back the nominee. I hope I am the nominee because I can bring about half those votes that voted for Ralph Nader back into the party. That's how we are going to win. And I think at this point there is no other evidence that any of the other candidates can do that and I think that's why I'm the most likely to beat George Bush.

I know this doesn't answer your concern directly, but I did want to cite a source for HD saying he'd support the eventual nominee.

[Rose Siding]

83. It does answer the concern

"I will back the nominee" answers the concern every bit as much as it deserves to be answered. Ha ANY candidate has pledged all their supporters to the noninee already???

This is so much disappointing hysteria.

What SHOULD scare the shit out of us is that there are so MANY Americans who disillusioned with politics and that there is only one candidate who has been able to energize them.

This FREAK OUT could have been averted with a simple question and your post response.

[Eloriel]

94. Thank you

I'm trying to remember if this was the thing I saw -- I seem to remember him standing up as he delivered it. But in any case, it certainly matches what I said.

Eloriel

[MGKrebs]

33. He's just talking about where Clark is going to get his support.

All the candidates already have significant numbers of volunteers working for them. He had mentioned that it will be hard for Clark to do well in Iowa and NH, and that is the reason. Many volunteer types have already comitted.

Dean has already said very clearly that he will support the eventual nominee. He has also said that he will NOT commit to releasing any delegates he might win early. At this stage of the came, that is mostly a committment to his supporters that he is in this to win.

I don't see the problem here Will.

disclosure: Yes I am a Dean supporter and volunteer. I do not agree with Dean on everything and am capable of being critical of him if appropriate.

[CWebster]

34. All that righteous howling about bashing,

huh Pitt.

He's honest and he is right. Take it for what its worth, Some of us just don't go all soft and pitter-patter for a dude in a uniform--in fact it repulses us.

You don't seem to understand -it has to be something worth winning.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. I'm Glad You Trumpet Your Bias and Prejudice Once More for All to See

Some of us just don't go all soft and pitter-patter for a dude in a uniform--in fact it repulses us.

That's a very narrow-minded position, filled with bias and prejudice.

DTH

[WilliamPitt]

45. I see you're speaking to my good friend 'Ignored.'

He's always good for a laugh.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

46. You're Right

I'm with you on this poster, as of now. :-)

DTH

[CWebster]

59. Too bad you will miss this

When I first came here I actually admired your talent and came to your defense on a few occasions when you put your work up for the board. Never has anyone fallen so fast in my overall estimation.

[CWebster]

49. And truth

Sorry you will not get me to line up and salute to the Democratic party's final sell-out to the Republican world view.

NO.

[no name no slogan]

201. Which one? Dean or Clark? (n/t)

[DemBones DemBones]

211. Funny, I thought you wanted Dean as the nominee? n/t

[Cocoa]

37. this has been posted here before

with the same parts emphasized.

How did this old article come to your attention just now. I'm just curious if there's an email going around or something, or how this article is propogating still.

[WilliamPitt]

40. I just saw it in another thread

I had not seen it before. I'm not trying to stir old shit up. This is brand new shit for me.

[Cocoa]

80. I didn't mean to imply that at all

I really was curious about how this was still out there. Its being still here at DU makes sense, this is the kind of thing that won't die here. :-)

My opinion on it is that this is only a concern if you see Dean supporters as blind followers, or see Dean as some kind of charismatic leader. He's not. If he doesn't support the dem nominee, I think this will be a huge turnoff to Dean's supporters and Dean will be seen as the next Ralph Nader. That's something Dean is smart enough to avoid, and imo he wouldn't want to do that anyway.

[Romberry]

199. I find that not credible

Like I said, you are not stupid. You know how to use Google. You know how to search DU. You know how to do research. Instead of asking if this had been discussed you just jumped right in with a chance to stir the pot knowing full well what the response would be.

Like I said before, I've always admired your writing but now after reading this "new to me" post I am left wondering about your honesty.

[VelmaD]

44. I'm trying really hard...

to give Dean the benefit of the doubt on this one but it ain't easy. He may mean this in the sense that he can't guarantee tht his supporters will vote Dem if he isn't nominated. I'd like to believe that he's just "telling it like it is".

But, I'm still scared. Much has been made of how his campaign has pulled in people who haven't been involved before and that means they need to get educated in a hurry about the realities of politics. You don't always (or really ever) get 100% of what you want. If Dean doesn't get the nomination and they take their toys and go home then we, and they, are stuck with this same shit for another 4 years and that is unacceptable.

The part that really upset me is when he said "I can’t just go out and say, ‘Okay, so I didn’t win the nomination, so go ahead and vote for the Democrats’". Why the hell can't he? That's what you do when you support your party. That's what you do when the reality of getting rid of chimpy is more important to you than your own ego.

Ok, I'm gonna stop now. I'm getting het up. :)

[jonnyblitz]

61. I would assume that his supporters have enough sense

to realize what the consequences of their actions might whether they get some marching order from on high or not. I understand the importance of the public symbolic gesture but still I have a bit more faith in the people.

[VelmaD]

70. I hope you're right...

I know some very savvy people who are working for Dean right now. I want to beleive. :)

But even if I take the comment in the best possible light, that he's just stating the truth, then I'm still worried. If Dean doesn't know that his supporters will get behind the Dem nominee then I think I have a right to be concerned about whether they have "enough sense".

[jonnyblitz]

88. perhaps I am being naive about Dean supporters

To me he just isnt radically left wing enough economically to be attractive to THE third party the DEMS have to worry about(Greens). If the third party types can settle for Howard Dean then whats the difference with the other DEM candidates. They must realize the consequences I would hope. I am serious, maybe I AM being naive about this.

[bicentennial_baby]

I don't think so

I would'nt say you're being naive about them, just hopeful that the majority of them realize how much is at stake this time around.

[WilliamPitt]

72. I hope your right

but when I read Eloriel's comments above, I am not at all sure.

[VelmaD]

82. ok, this is getting werid...

that's the 2nd time today we've posted with the same title at the same time. *cue Twilight Zone theme music*

Which one of us is the sock-puppet? :-)

[demnan]

47. Here is my take

Dean is negotiating his say on the Democratic party platform now from a position of strength. However, should his campaign weaken and fall behind he is making sure that some of his issues will make it to the Democratic party platform for 2004.

All the candidates are going to try to negotiate items on the party platform. You're going to see a lot of them touting their supporters to negotiate platform points.

I think Dean is far more like McCain than he is like Nader. Dean is a Democrat, he understands the political machine. He's got to know that if he wants to continue his political career he's going to have to stick with the Democratic Party. Politicians need friends on the inside as well as the outside.

[TheDonkey]

48. Howard Dean = BAD!!!

Dean was formerly my #1 man (before his rise in popularity). But the more and more I heard him speak on TV, listen to his views, and saw how he campaigned the more worried I got.

There are to areas I think Howard Dean fails badly, electability and liberalism. The sad thing is that Dean will be painted as a liberal elitist which he isn't so that will lower his electablity chances. BUT if he does get nominated and beats Bush... what do we get? A v. conservative centrist?! So if we will go through all the effort of electing a supposed liberal, anti-war dove, gay lover but get someone a little more center than Clinton, did we win anything!

I think Dean's anti-bush rhetoric is terrific but it's policy at the end of the day that I look for. Plus the fact that Dean cannot carry himself on TV much better than bush. Dean blinks over-the-top, gets aggitated, and rambles. DO we really want two livewires on stage at once during the pres. debates?

[deutsey]

50. Not a problem for me

I wouldn't even be a damn Democrat anymore if Dean's campaign hadn't made me reconsider my decision to leave the Party.

If he doesn't get the nomination, he's right: I, and others like me, won't just go away. We'll be right there demanding that whatever candidate does get the nomination better damn sight not take us for granted like so many Dems have done lo, these many decades.

I've said before I'll vote for whomever the Party nominates this time in the hope of beating Bush. But if whoever the nominee is wins and restores the the Democratic Party that fumbled in '94, caved in '00, and damn near died in '02, well...

As Woody Guthrie once sang: So long, it's been good to know ya...

[Bertrand]

58. Will

I posted a response to some of what youre talking about here:

http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=396283#396652


Just my opinion, but i think it clarifies some of the criticism.

[WilliamPitt]

71. Thanks, Bertrand

My response to Eloriel above:

I can't tell you how important an issue that is to me. Personally, it scares me to think that Dean will have fired up all these people to help change things, and they will go and bail if they don't get their way. The "I" vs. "We" thing again. If this happens, I will suffer a catastrophic loss of respect for Dean people. That's just how it is for me.

[Classical_Liberal]

143. Why the hell would you worry about voters that you wouldn't have

worried about if Dean weren't in the race at all. You don't get this way over all the DLC Bush lovers.

[Tatiana]

60. It's the one thing about him that bothers me.

I can take his centrism. I can accept the fact that he is a moderate. But that one statement not only smacks of a threat, but of the arrogance so blatantly displayed by rightwingers. He seems to think that he's the best and if he doesn't get the nomination, we can't beat Bush. I think we can beat Bush with any number of candidates.

He wants the nomination bad. That's a good thing. He has shown he's got the confidence and determination to take it to Bush. As much as I like him, I'm not convinced he can beat Bush and I'm still not convinced he would make a better President than Kerry or Edwards.

When it's all said and done, and if Dean turns out not to be our nominee, I want to know that he will be 100% behind whoever the democratic nominee is. Even if, Lord forbid, it's Lieberman.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

89. Very, very well reasoned thoughts on this whole situation...

I hope everyone reads this.

[Larkspur]

64. Will, go to Dean's web site and listen to his March 15, 2003 speech

to the California State Democratic Convention http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=audio_video_archive. During that speech, he says that he will support the Dem nominee if it is not him. He also said it at the July 22 Portsmouth, NH rally I attended.

And in the March 15 speech, here is the heart of Dean's campaign
I have never lost an election, but my career has never been about winning elections. My career -- and this campaign -- is about changing the Democratic Party. It's about changing America. And this campaign is about taking back the White House so we can have health insurance, so we can have a balanced budget, and so we can have an inclusive society where everybody believes in each other and believes in America.

As a Dean supporter who will vote Dem, even if it is not Dean, my enthusiasm and cash are not transferrable to another candidate unless they earn it, and if they treat Dean shabbily, they are treating us shabbily, and then all they will ever hope to get out of me is a vote in 2004 and then I'll work like hell to make their lives difficult so that Dean's vision of changing the Dem Party and this country will come true.

Here's a quote for you to ponder, Will Pitt. It's from Father Thomas Merton, Faith and Violence: Christian Teaching and Christian Practice
...it may in fact be necessary to practice non-violent methods if democracy is to be kept alive and preserved against the sclerosis which is gradually hardening it into a new form of Totalism.

To me, Dean's Campaign fits this model of non-violent resistance to the sclerosis of Totalism that our current Dem Party leaders are encouraging as much as Bush & Co. are.

[Northwind]

73. You should be nervous

You should be frightened to death that the someone other than Dean will be the nominee. If anyone other than Dean is nominated, Bush will be "re"-elected. I myself will not accept any other candidate. And there are a lot of others like me. You think all those people who've never taken part in politics before, and who are now supporting Dean, will accept someone else? Those folks are not getting out and rallying for the Democratic Party, the are rallying for DEAN. Dean is the only acceptable choice.

A lot of people here are ABB. Anyone But Bush.

I am NBD. Nobody But Dean.

[WilliamPitt]

81. That's fucking kiddie sandbox politics

and it is dangerous bullshit.

[Northwind]

86. Dangerous? Yes.

Almost as dangerous as nominating someone other than Dean.

It really does not matter what you think of it.

Dean is the only acceptable choice.

NBD in '04.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

84. Oh, Brother

Give me a break with your macho bravado.

BTW...what if Dean is the VP pick? What do you say then, tough guy?

DTH

[WilliamPitt]

90. "I'm taking my ball and leaving!"

Any other candidate will support a woman's right to choose, the rescue of Social Security and Medicare, health care reform, dumping this tort reform nonsense, and a host of other bread-and-butter issues that Dean dores not hold the fucking patent on. What bullshit.

[Northwind]

106. Issues are irrelevent.

Campaigns have little or nothing to do with issues.

Again, it does not matter if you think it is "bullshit".

NBD in '04.

[WilliamPitt]

118. I will be assimilated, eh?

:eyes:

[phegger]

235. Resistance is futile

*

[Feanorcurufinwe]

142. The cult of personality

You have summed it up well.


However, to a lot of us, issues matter a great deal.

I don't think Dean feels that way though, which is why he is able to speak on both sides of so many issues - he doesn't really believe what he is saying, so he doesn't care if it is consistent.

He is about one thing: ambition.

[bigtree]

164. A vote for a candidate may have little or nothing to do with issues

But campaigns are about raising issues to a level where they are debated and hopefully addressed.

Why abandon the issues we care about and leave them to any chance that Bush would lord over them for another four years?

[phegger]

234. what???

Campaigns have little or nothing to do with issues

again:

what???


-ph :crazy:

[Northwind]

91. I think

My position is clear.

NBD in '04.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

103. Not Clear at All

So if the ticket is, say, Clark/Dean, you stay home?

DTH

[Northwind]

116. Most likely.

Why vote when there is not an acceptable candidate in the race?

[goobergunch]

163. You're giving Dean supporters a bad name (n/t)

[Girlfriday]

123. I've been enjoying the debate

but I think your attitude is very dangerous. How the hell can we get rid off the asshole in the WH if people think like you. Good God, think!!!!

[JVS]

157. I always wondered what would happen when someone called out..

the ABB crowd with such a post.

[nolabels]

183. I am sorry you see this as some kind of personality contest

If I was worried about a person winning an up coming election or collecting some kind following of opposite of what I believed in I could find some of these things offensive. This coined acronym of ABB you might think is some kind of joke has a lot more meaning behind it.

I once supported Dean but found this is not a good strategy to accomplish the goal to what seems to be needed (imo). I don't want or need a leader to tell me what I should think, do or associate with, for even that is wrong as far as I can see. I am staying with the original reason for hanging here in the first place. Please try and understand where some are comming from before thinking it best to belittle. Some were born at night, but not all last night. Maybe try and figure what side your on, possibly :think:

[JVS]

241. I don't view this as a personality contest. This is a major failure to ..

deal with problems.

The problem in the party for quite a while now has been that there is little consensus on what values we can unite behind, or more optimistically, we are a 'big tent'. The lack of a consensus is not helped by the fact that almost down to a person, we hate Bush. Motivation is good, but being angry alone is no substitute for a unified platform.

Because we are in a big tent there is a great possibility of conflict. ABB is an attempt to relieve the tensions by encouraging people to pledge themselves to the concept of unity. By doing this it is hoped that the lack of coordination can be overcome. Meanwhile different factions of the party pursue their own agendas. Under ABB each faction is told that pursuing these objectives is a great thing to do, but when the time comes it is necessary to be able to cast the objectives aside and unite behind a candidate.

The largest flaw in this system is that instead encouraging different factions to compromise and strike a deal which can benefit multiple sections of the party, ABB puts each faction into fierce competition. The possiblities in this contest are either to defeat the other candidates and impose your own vision onto the party or to be beaten and accept the terms imposed on your faction by the other candidate. ABB turns a primary fight into total war.

Exacerbating this is the fact that participants in ABB mutually pledge to support the candidate who wins the primary. On one level this is completely logical in that any party will need to draw itself together, but there is also a very dark aspect to this agreement. The combination of the do or die election for the factions and a party-electorate (Democrats) who pledge support to the eventual winner are a combination that encourages inner party brutality of terrible proportions. Basically we are told this "The only way to get what you want in the election is for your candidate to beat all the others, and since (almost) everyone has pledged to support the eventual candidate (or alternately since everyone who will not support the eventual candidate is morally wrong and should support them by all measures of rightness)you should exercise no restraint in pushing your candidate to the top. After all, we've all promised to support him/her"

The short version of the story is that we have a ten candidate death-match and no way of dealing with the lack of coherence that our party suffers from.

[CMT]

75. Dean has made clear that he will support the democratic nominee

in many comments when this question has come up. He was most forceful on the subject on Larry King a month or so ago. Most Dean supporters will not take their marbles home and not play if he isn't the nominee. At least the ones I know and I know many at Meetups.
This was a good profile by the way of Dean overall and his comments about his supporters not necessarily being transferable makes perfect sence with the kind of outspoken campaign he is running. He will urge them to vote for the nominee and campaign for the nominee--but his supporters are not cattle if some have legitimite gripes with the Democratic party either in the way they have stood up to Bush or on the war then all the promoting of the nominee that Dean does may not make any difference.

While most Dean supporters I know will vote for the eventual nominee there have been a few who have said they will not vote for two: Lieberman and Clark. Clark because they don't trust his GOP past and find him "wishy-washy" on the war and because he is a professional military man. I have a feeling some Kucinich supporters will feel the same way about that.

In the end though I'm convinced 95% of Dean supporters will support whoever the nominee is and Dean will be right in the thick of things working for our nominee.

[WilliamPitt]

76. Oh, by the way, GOD DAMN IT

I got logged out again, and it wouldn't let me log back in until I rebooted my computer. :grr:

[Cha]

119. The same thing happened to me...and I "rebooted" my machine

as per reading that you did it and I got back in! I wouldn't have known to do that otherwise..thank you! :toast:

Gotta stay connected! :-)

[clar]

77. Will,

I pointed out in the other thread, venues in which Dean has said unequivocally, that he will support the eventual nominee. Period.
I'm not going to give you links. You're perfectly capable of googling it yourself. He has repeatedly said that the most important thing is getting Bush out. He has said he believes Bush is a threat to our democracy and the constitution. Look, Dean was my Governor for 11 years. Absolutely the guy has an ego, but he's also a principled guy.


Will, you're a writer. It doesn't seem to me you read the LA weekly piece very closely. Please not the liberal use of elipses in important places:

When I ask Dean about Clark, his response is characteristically two-fold. He praises him with sincere fervor: “I know Wes Clark, he’s a very good human being, and he’s got an enormous amount of integrity.” At the same time, on the subject of Clark entering the race, he shows more than a glint of steel. “It’s going to be very hard to start late,” he says, “and think you’re going to do well in Iowa and New Hampshire. It’s going to be incredibly hard. I mean, we’ve already got 39,000 people working for us all around the country . . . I really do believe — and I think about this — I want to get this nomination, and if I don’t . . . these kids are not transferrable. I can’t just go out and say, ‘Okay, so I didn’t win the nomination, so go ahead and vote for the Democrats.’ They’re not going to suddenly just go away. That’s not gonna happen.”

Why are you fixating on one piece when their are so many sources indicating, through his own words, that he'll support the nominee?

[StopThief]

78. The realistic fear here is. . .

that Dean is alot more like McCain than anyone here wants to believe. If he begins to feel that the party machine has mobilized to deny him what he believes would be his without their interference, he may very well be tepid in his support of the nominee. McCain's lack of support for Bush after the convention, was truly harmful to Bush. Every McCain supporter felt his attitude.

[Demobrat]

85. Oh for Pete's sake.

We went over this back when the article was written. He's saying that his supporters have minds of their own and are not his to direct. This is the first WillPitt piece I've read since you so kindly condescended to explain to us all why Dean supporters were politically naive children. I have a feeling it maybe the last.

[WilliamPitt]

92. Will you, personally, support the Dem nominee

if it is not Howard Dean?

[Demobrat]

147. Yes.

But that decision will be made by me, not Howard Dean or anyone else.

[VelmaD]

98. Then you missed a scathing commentary...

on Shrub's speech to the UN yesterday, which is really your loss.

DV

[Demobrat]

148. I can make my own scathing commentary,

but thanks for your concern.

edit for typo

[Northwind]

99. You have to understand

Many people here are absolutely terrified of people with mind's of their own.

[Mairead]

131. Oh for Pete's sake indeed

What you claim he's saying might be what he intended to say or wanted to or thought he was saying, but it is very definitely not what he said. What he said was that he would not --could not-- make a speech saying 'I support X and I hope all the wonderful people who made this contest worthwhile for me will now support me one more time and get behind X as I will'.

If Dennis Kucinich doesn't get the nom, he will make such a speech. And I will ignore his request, and write his name in. But he will definitely make the speech!

[lapislzi]

93. There are a number of ways to look at this...

The first way is the disturbing way. Yes, it kind of bothers me, too (and no, I'm not committed to a candidate yet).

BUT...what about taking a different tack with it? What if those "non-transferable kids" make their issues non-transferable? What if they take their gripes and grouses and concerns and hopes to the person who actually takes the nomination and makes him/her listen? What if these newly-fledged voters coalesce into a legitimate voting bloc? I think that would be a good thing.

Aside...the remark also goes to the political naivete of people who are new to politics. Nobody wants to believe its as whorish a game as it truly is. The scales eventually fall from everyone's eyes.

[babzilla]

97. what was in the ellipses?

"I want to get this nomination, and if I don’t . . . these kids are not transferrable. I can’t just go out and say, ‘Okay, so I didn’t win the nomination, so go ahead and vote for the Democrats’"

Usually when there is an ellipses something has been left out of the quote. This statement is incomplete so by definition it has been taken out of context.

Did you see the Harkin Steak Fry? When Clinton spoke about falling in line once the nomination is determined. Did you notice the candidates that were actually standing behind Clinton when he said this? Dean, Graham, Braun & Kucinich. Did you notice the candidates that ducked out and weren't standing behind Clinton when he said this? Kerry, Gephardt & Edwards.

[WilliamPitt]

102. I did see that

and thanks for the reminder.

As a writer who does interviews, I can say that an elipses within a spoken quote usually denotes a pause, as if the person is thinking.

[babzilla]

124. or it can be an edit as you know as a writer

It just seems like an incomplete statement to me.

The main point is that Dean understands that many of his supporters are people who have been disappointed by the Democratic party or have never been a part of the Democratic party. Early in his campaign part of his stump speech was to ask the crowd how many of you haven't been involved politics. Invariably at least half the crowd raised their hands. Dean doesn't tell people what they want to hear, he tells them the truth. If that turns people off so be it.

What about the Harkin Steak Fry? Do you think that it says something about Dean's dedication to the party that he stood behind Clinton when the accepted party loyalists didn't?

[WilliamPitt]

134. It does indeed

Your reminding me of that, coupled with DTH's transcript link, basically put this issue to bed for me. Thanks.

[babzilla]

154. so did it make you nervous

that Kerry didn't stand behind Clinton at the Harkin Steak Fry for the speech where the theme was: fall in love before the nomination, but fall in line after. Did your support-o-meter go off when that happened?

To me it said a lot about supporting the party, I guess my support-o-meter has a different calibration than yours.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

158. Kerry is a limousine Liberal.

Harkin Steak Fry? Gone. Harkin candidate's forum? Gone in less than ten minutes.

Thing that make me nervous.

http://www.c-span.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=harkin&image1.x=17&image1.y=6 Watch the video if you don't believe me.

[DemBones DemBones]

204. So of course Edwards, Gephardt, and Kerry deliberately made

other commitments so that they had to leave the Harkin Steak Fry before Clinton's speech? They all knew he'd talk about falling in line behind the nominee so they all wanted to avoid being there when he did.

And a professional journalist writing a lengthy, and mostly very positive, article about Howard Dean put those ellipses in a direct quote not to indicate a pause but to indicate that he left something out? That he took something out of context in transcribing his own interview for his own article?

Dean supporters really go to fantastic lengths to justify Howard Dean's gaffes and blunders and excuse his record.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

100. LET'S PUT THIS ISSUE TO BED, PLEASE: TRANSCRIPT

CALLER: Hi. Governor Dean, I have been so impressed by you ever since I saw you on "Meet the Press." And I'm going to my first Dean meeting this week. And my question for you is that many Democrats believe that if not for Ralph Nader staying in the election that we wouldn't have George Bush as a president.

So my question to you is, if you do not get the Democratic nomination, will you still run on the independent ticket?

DEAN: No, I will not.

CALLER: If so, how will that impact the upcoming race?

DEAN: I will not run as independent. I will support the nominee. It is essential that George Bush not be re-elected for the future of this country. It is essential for our economy. It's essential, so we can regain the respect we had around the world. And I will under no circumstances run as a third party and independent. I will back the nominee. I hope I am the nominee because I can bring about half those votes that voted for Ralph Nader back into the party. That's how we are going to win. And I think at this point there is no other evidence that any of the other candidates can do that and I think that's why I'm the most likely to beat George Bush.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html

DTH

[WilliamPitt]

108. AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Excellent.

Puts that baby to bed.

Next level: Will his supporters do the same?

[gully]

111. You bet your f'n ass I will !!!

:dem: But I can only speak for myself..

[DoveTurnedHawk]

112. In the Interests of Full Disclosure

The Larry King interview was August 4. The LA Weekly came out at the end of August.

That said, I don't think he's flip-flopped on this. I think the two interviews are close enough in time to support the interpretation I first forward above. But that's just me. :-)

DTH

[Mairead]

136. Did it? Why?

He says he will support the nominee. Is that a conventional way of saying he will also attempt to deliver his supporters to the nominee?

[WilliamPitt]

138. See my other thread

[goobergunch]

165. Just look at my sig (n/t, but you still should look at the sig)

[gully]

114. Thanks Dove!

:toast:

[mandyky]

104. You're nervous because Dean knows his supporters?

A lot of his supporters are new, young and independent people, not necessarily Dems. They are willing to register Dem to vote for Dean, but that does not mean they'll be yellow dog Democrats if Dean loses the nomination.

Dean himself has said over and over that he'll support who wins the nomination. Some people feel strongly about Iraq, and if they are independents they might stay home instead of vote for Kerry or someone who voted for the resolution that allowed Iraq to happen. On the other side there are independents who are one issue voters about guns, these folks absolutely won't vote Dem if the gun control is too strong.

Like I said, Dean just knows his supporters and that is what he was talking about.

[JaneQPublic]

105. So where's the fire?

Excuse me, but I don't see what the big deal is. He's simply stating the truth.

A lot of Dean supporters were never involved in politics before they got fired up about him. Some never even voted before. These types are DEAN loyalists, not PARTY loyalists. Hell, some of them don't even identify as Democrats, and if they HAVE voted before, it may have been for Nader, McCain, or Perot rather than the Democrats.

If Dean craps out, I figure most of his activists will vote for the Democratic candidate -- because they DO want Bush out of power -- but few will continue campaigning and contributing like crazy.

Sorry, but it takes a special candidate to succeed in mobilizing hundreds of thousands of people at the grassroots level the way Howard Dean has done -- to get people involved in the political process who never were before. Without him, many will just go back to being disillusioned political cynics.

[starscape]

109. Wait, Will....

sorry I haven't read all the responses.. read a few of them.

But don't you think he meant BEFORE the primary? It will be hard for Clark to pull people away.. to get votes during the primary? I just don't think at all that Dean was threatening to "take his ball and go home" with all of his supporters if Clark gets the nod.

Do you really think that's what he meant? Why?

[WilliamPitt]

117. CONTINUE DISCUSSION HERE:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=396879

[robbedvoter]

121. We have a GOP mayor in NYC, instead of a good, liberal-dem civil rights

activist. Why? Because the guy who lost in the primaries threw his support to the GOP (with the enthusiastic support of Al Sharpton). I am still angry about it. That mayor is the one denying us permits to protest the GOP convention next year (he invited them too!). That's why Will's post resonates with me - I brought this story up myself when I heard of it.
Thanks to the poster who gave the CNN transcript on not going independent - that helped. I for one will support the nominee- whoever that might be - and much as I want my own candidate to be it. (He too is drawing a lot of people in the process who were not in before - like most things - it's not a Dean monopoly)
So, I'll chose to be optimistic on this one - because I have to worry about more burning things (Will UN cave to W? Will they crow that they own the world now and start a new war?)

[w13rd0]

122. Not transferrable means...

...not transferrable. Many of the people in the Dean campaign are new to politics, many might not consider themselves Democrats. He can't wave a magic wand at convention time and say, "Ok, now go vote for <insert name> and have it happen." That's a fact on the ground. The nominee will have to ENGAGE DEAN SUPPORTERS and EMBRACE THEM, or that nominee won't GET MANY OF THEM. What's so damned difficult to understand about that? The Dean Campaign has been energetic and engaging, many of Deans supporters won't show as much get up and go for <insert candidate> unless they ENGAGE THEM or at least TRY to, rather than insulting them and saying, "Well, what are you gonna do, vote for Bush?"

ESPECIALLY if the damned nominee is someone JUST AS LIKELY to vote for Bush as an energized supporter left disenfranchised and unengaged...

Ok, on edit, now I've read the whole thread. Dissappointing to say the least. To quote the thread originator, "This thread ain't nuthin but shit." What complete bullshit. Go talk to a few of the perpetual Dean-bashers about what they'll do if Dean wins the nomination. Will Lieberman and Kerry endorse Dean? Will other candidates supporters work for and campaign for a Dem2004 win? Just as valid a question. But to date, only Dean has been asked to answer, why is that?

[Malikshah]

125. Here we go again

Funny that we now have two threads addressing these same quotes.

Quotes brought up from the past just in case people forgot how scary Dean is...

Sorry--but it's getting old.

The arguments in the thread thus far about Dean bringing folks back in are valid. They do not make this a vanity campaign-those who believe this just don't understand the nature of the support--
in other words--Dean's galvanized people to the "not the same old politics" routine-- yes--this too has been addressed by William Pitt in another thread. (Getting to be a habit here...:-) )

The point is--If the DLC/DNC annointed ones succeed in stifling the Dean campaign--or even have the appearance of it (which they do right now w/ all the rumors flying--it's all perception folks, not the truth) then many who supported Dean might go third party--or not just vote at all. That would be too bad.

I'm at heart a Dean supporter--but guess what--the alternative is ABB. That's me--I'm still not disgusted enough at the system that I would take my toys and go home.

I believe that many of Dean's supporters will do the same thing if the time comes. The preemptively accuse them of this, or judge them for doing this in advance is disheartening. It's folks searching for problems, creating dissent, and weakening the whole process.

Remember in the end-- Dean has stated repeatedly that the people have the power--they choose the leaders-- if the DNC/DLC want to go ahead and have another go at choosing who are candidates are--they might not like the answer that Dean supporters give.

Should Dean supporters be judged harshly for this-- No. No more would I judge Kerry, Clark, etc supporters for promoting their candidates (I might believe that their candidates are DNC/DLC chosen and don't like it--but I'm not going to hold that against the supporters)

Again though-- What is most amazing about all this is that we have two threads now dealing with the quote--

Sorry folks--but it's getting too common and tiresome.

[WilliamPitt]

127. I started this thread, and as far as I am concerned

the matter is settled. Thanks for your thoughtful post. This was all brand new to me; I missed the shindig the last time. :)

[Malikshah]

132. Clarification

With regard to 2 threads--I meant-- two simultaneous threads--one by you and one by bushkiller (?)

That's all-- it has been settled--but will rise again no doubt with this and other candidates. So much chewing of stale vomit, etc.

[WilliamPitt]

133. The bushkiller thread

was the first time I'd seen that particular quote, and I dropped a load of panicked poo into my shorts. Can't TELL you how important this is to me.

Thanks again.

[Padraig18]

130. Thank you!

I am sick to DEATH of this crap, both against Dean and BY Dean supporters! :grr:

[Jacobin]

128. Thin skinned all of a sudden? Or perhaps, just unreasonable?

Doncha think he meant his supporters would stick with him? I didn't read it any other way.

If Clark gets the nomination, doncha think Dean will be the first to "release" his supporters to go for Clark. It rarely happens otherwise.

Why should he "release" his supporters before Clark wins the nomination? It's not a foregone conclusion, IMHO. I have never heard of anyone doing that. Surrender before you lose? Is that what you want?

What's up with this stuff, anyway?

[WilliamPitt]

129. I'm not talking about 'before the nomination.'

That would be stupid and insane.

[whirlygigspin]

239. would Kerry endorse Dean

and line up his supporters if Dean wins?

I will be looking foreward to it.

[Armstead]

135. "It's not gonna happen."

I think Dean is just being honest.

If the Democratic Centrist Establishment and the Big Money Crowd buy the nomination and put in another Non-Issue Candidate, a lot of Dean supporters are going to be very disappointed. And their enthusiasm will NOT be transferrable. Most of them will still probably cast their votes for ABB, but their passion and resources will vaporize if that happens.

Dean has brought something new to the table -- People Power. He's raised a shitload of money without sucking the Corporate Tit to do it. And his supporters are responding to that.

They will not be enthusiastic supporters of the Democratic Nominee if they are blown off by the Establishment in favor of an Insurance Puppet like Joe Lieberman, or a Clinton Stalking Horse or a Business-as-Usual Hack, especially if that nominee spouts off the usual meaningless Centrist Platitudes.

That's just reality, like it or not.

In addition to defeating Bush, the goal of the upcoming election should be to open the windows on the stale, smelly mess that conventional politics has become.

[w4rma]

137. My translation

"I can’t just go out and say, ‘Okay, so I didn’t win the nomination, so go ahead and vote for the Democrats.’ They’re not going to suddenly just go away. That’s not gonna happen.”

My translation of this Dean quote combined with Dean's Larry King Live "I will support the Democratic nominee." quote:

Dean can't just go out and tell these folks to vote Democrat and expect them them to do what Dean tells them to do just because he told them to do it. And they won't just leave the political process. Some might vote Green, some might vote Democrat, some might vote Republican, some might lose their enthusiasm and not vote at all. Dean will support and endorse the nominee if he he doesn't win the nomination as he says that any of the 10 Democrats running are a big improvement over Bush.

[kaitykaity]

140. Oh, Please.

Are you trying to say Dean is unbalanced and
loopy? (Read much RW propaganda lately?)
Howard Dean will get behind the Democratic
nominee. So what if he's not willing to concede
defeat to Clark yet? Can you imagine what it
must be like, to be the "it boy" one week, and
the next be a nonentity?

I thought there was something interesting
in your thread. Turns out I was wrong.

[Starpass]

149. Raising hand in back of room

ummmmm, I don't know if this is true or not. But if it is true and Dean just couldn't lower himself to ask his supporters to support the nominee then would someone tell me why I should trust a "President Dean" to stick to being a Democrat and democratic ideals either?? Would this mean, "yo, elect me and then I might be a Dem and I might be George Bush III???" If he's so above playing the same old political game where the losers ask their people to support the winner (how did you get to be governor, Howard?)then I believe we don't have a "team player", now do we?? So why should I bet that what I end up with will be a Dem in any way, shape or form????? I've said many times that I don't believe Dean is who he is pretending to be and maybe this is clue #1.

[w4rma]

152. If you don't know anything about it, then why didn't you bother to scan

the thread before posting, Starpass?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

150. kick

Because it's another example of hypocricy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=299591



edit- link

[TreasonousBastard]

151. By the time I got here...

Dean's promise to NOT run as a third party spoiler has been posted 4 times, and we hear he confirmed that at a fundraiser.

If he can be believed, (always a problem in campaigns, as we all know all too well) I think the case is closed. For now.

fwiw, I read his statement of the 39,000 "not going away" as his supporters in the primaries not running off to Clark as the new fad in town, not as his base for an independant run. And, that he already had a huge and successful campaign in place that Clark will have to match somehow. He sounded to me that he knew the game just got a little more interesting, and he's up for the fight. Not a bad thing, imho.

Of course, should he lose, nobody knows just what those newbies to politics behind him are going to do. It would be nice to see them rallied behind the candidate with their fresh enthusiasm, but they could just as easily head back to apathy and disgust with "the system."

[Upfront]

153. Dean Has stated

he would not run as an independent should he fail to win. He said he would support who ever gets the nomanation. He also said he cannot say that all his support would come with him. What candidate could? Howard Dean is a good man and wants to get Bush* out, more then anything. I do not beleive for a minute that this was a threat. If Dean were to make a threat, you would not have to wonder about it. It would be very clear. Most of us Dean people will back who ever is running against Bush* and would be encouraged too do so by Dean. You do good work Will but on this one, chill a little. ;)

[HFishbine]

156. Good God

Will, your "I'm not bashing Dean, but..." posts are getting a little tiresome. Look at what has you so friggin' "nervous" this time: Dean's recognition that his supporters are loyal and he's loyal to them.

Has any other candidate said anything different? Has any candidate said he's ready to urge his supporters to work for another candidate?

Your Chicken Little interpretation suspects the worst. When I read Dean's words, it sounds to me like what he's saying is that we, his supporters, are not just going to capitulate to any dem candidate -- that our concerns cannot be ignored or our loyalty taken for granted. I have no problem with that.

You have a great mind, and a way with words, but please give people a little credit. Please, if you're going to look for the worst possible interpretation of one candidate's every single utterance, do the same for all.

[Capn Sunshine]

161. I did not read ANY of the other responses

So it would not influence the direct answer I got from Burlington on this, as I was confronted with this in an interview here locally.

Howard Dean is acknowlegeing, nothing more, the fierce idealism of the young volunteers. That's it. He is saying he's as captive to THEM as anything. HE can't tell them what to do, nor would he presume to. Now, my feelings on this are:

It's not a threat. It's an observation on the driving motivation of the Dean volunteer base. Howard Dean knows this; he can't assume for a second that he can, if he loses the nomination , assume his supporters will just go on and work for the noiminee, just because he tells them to.

No, Will, the campaign to a lot of folks is bigger than that. Its the framework, it's the organization, it's the virtual community of like minded patriotic Americans; the whole magilla. It's far far bigger than a candidate. It's an energy force we have tapped, like being atop a breaking wave, that we are riding, all of us, harnessing a natural power together, all of us, including the candidate, being swept along by an unseen force and effect of our creation that we no longer control.

Howard Dean thinks about these things; many in the campaign haven't even come to this realization; but he has.

Far from a threat Will, it's a tip of the hat to the cosmos that has put us in this orbit together. It's NOT a regular campaign, it's light years removed from this. It's a force of nature that is breathtaking in it's awesome power and not to be trifled with.

Howard Dean wants you to know he recognizes he's along for the ride, fortunate enough to be in the drivers seat at the moment. But if he leaves the bus, someone else will take the wheel. This vehicle is not going to dissipate post-election; it's become a counterbalance to the corporate lobbyist, to the insider , to the propagandist that would have us believe Bush is the greatest president since Reagan, and that Reagan was a great president.

We are lucky to have Howard Dean as our spokesman. But in the sense that he meant it, we are not transferable. We are on this ride for LIFE.


ps.Of COURSE I will work for the nominee whomever he/she is......

[Cha]

188. Great Post! I like your "like atop a breaking wave" analogy!

Stimulating visualization!

[ibegurpard]

162. Someone brought this up before and I'm surprised you never noticed it.

How can Howard Dean make all the people that are supporting him enthusiastically transfer that enthusiastic support over to another candidate. If someone like Kerry or Lieberman gets the nod then, yes, I will vote for him but I'm not going to send him my money or go out and pound the pavement for him or enthusiastically talk him up. Sorry, that's just the way it goes. That's not Dean's fault and it's not his fault that people like me are attracted to him as a candidate.

[zeemike]

166. Why all of a sudden?

Because Clark enter the race? And He shot up to the head of the polls? Do you smell a winner and what to be on the winning team?
I asked this in another thread and would like an answer if you have time. Is party loyalty more important to you than policies?
If Clark would win and reinstate the policies of Reagan would that be all right with you as long as it was a Demo win?

[WilliamPitt]

169. I'd never heard this before

and that's something like the sixth time I've said that.

[VelmaD]

170. are you starting to think...

that maybe people don't bother to read a thread before they respond? *rolls eyes*

[zeemike]

172. Excuse me

This thread has a lot of posts and if I have missed things I am sorry
But I have limited time because I work and may not have time to read the whole thing. So it would be nice if you could direct me to where I can find the answer to the questions I asked instead of just blowing me off as a Non Reader.

[kodi]

167. even dean would tell you that he is not the issue, the issues are

there are enough people getting on the dean team who have never had their hopes dashed that these few will be devastated if dean does not win the nomination.

and generally these true believers are the most vocal supporters of the dean the man versus dean's positions that stand alone without the man.

such is the cult of personality.

work past the man and work towards what he has helped promote, viz., local grass roots democracy. because most political decisions that affect people are those made at the local level, this means, forget any one person and get your ass involved at the local level. it is only from there that a sustained progressive majority can be built.

thank al gore, and howard dean for their emphasis on this and do the work needed in your town, neighborhood, and street to bring it about.

[newsguyatl]

168. things

that make you go "hmmmmm"



all this sudden "interest" and "concern" will...



very intersting.

[WilliamPitt]

175. For God's sake, THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS

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THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I'D HEARD THIS.

[VelmaD]

177. Breathe Will

You know my basic advice in situations like these. Go hug your mother. :-)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

178. .

[stickdog]

173. You should be nervous, Will. Because you are on the wrong side of this

issue and deep down you know it.

William Rivers Pitt - champion of politics and business as usual!

William Rivers Pitt - stooge of the status quo!

You really need to come to terms with this, Will. Yes, throwing your lot in with Dean is a big risk. However, his activist citizenry-driven grassroots campaign model simply has too much potential to shift political power from the elite to the hands of regular concerned citizens for you to turn your back on it to support the political status quo.

[WilliamPitt]

174. Thanks, Freud

:)

[stickdog]

180. No problem. The first half-assed, unsolicited psychobabble session

is always free of charge.

[VelmaD]

176. Have you considered...

that for some of us liberals (well for me anyway), as nice as Dean's "citizenry-driven, grassroots" campaign model seems...I'm not gonna support him because he is by his own admission a centrist. What does it matter how much I admire his campaign style if I don't agree with what he would do once elected?

[stickdog]

182. No. Because "you liberals" are either tilting-at-windmill hardcore greens

(read: part of Kucinich's rapidly growing 1%) or else you've fooled yourself into believing that one or another of the establishment-sanctioned candidates could preside over an (at best) divided Congress in a manner that was significantly more liberal than Dean.

Kerry is just your typical, boring Northeastern liberal promise-them-the-world status quo placekeeper. Plus, he's boring as newsprint and comes across exactly like the elite patrician legislator he is -- so he wouldn't win the general election against tough boy/bad boy/frat boy/dumbshit Bush in any case.

Gephardt is a tired Rose Garden sell out retread with lukewarm union support and very little else going for him.

Meanwhile, Dean is, overall, more liberal than Edwards, Graham or Lieberman.

[VelmaD]

185. You couldn't be more wrong...

about who I am and my politics if you tried. I am not a "tilting-at-windmill hardcore green" nor am I a Kucinich supporter at this point (haven't really picked a candidate). I am on the extreme left of the party and really don't like my choices but I am very pragmatic and realistic when it comes to politics. When it comes down to it I'll vote for the Dem nominee - I always do - but I don't have to like it. And the great part about primaries is I don't have to hold my nose and vote for someone who doesn't agree with my basic political philosophy.

I just don't like centrists and that is my prerogative. If politics is the art of compromise then I want someone who is going to at least start out a little to the left. Too many centrists have given too much away to the right and I'm tired of it. I don't trust centrists to hold the line when it's important any more.

All that said, I do understand that it's going to be difficult for anyone to work with a divided Congress. The solution to that of course being to go vote for Dems for congress even if they aren't the "citizenry-driven, grassroots" candidate that you want.

[stickdog]

191. IMHO, you're being shortsighted. The dynamics of the "marketing campaign"

is far more important than the "product" being offered in this special case.

Why?

1) The product being offered is 1,000,000 times better than Bush.

2) The product being offered comes with a plan for highly politically pragmatic incremental steps in the right direction for almost EVERY possible policy.

3) The "marketing campign," if successful, will pave the way for the similar grassroots uprisings of even more progressive candidates who will be able to build on these incremental changes.

Wouldn't you rather have national candidacies that were funded by 5 million activist citizens giving $20 each than by coporate and legal fatcats and huge multinational corporations?

Can't you fathom how much this model would change the fundamental fulcrum of power in politics across this nation?

[VelmaD]

197. I was just commenting on your initial response...

to Will. I wanted to point out that there are reasons someone might not support Dean other than being a "champion of politics and business as usual" and "stooge of the status quo". As someone who does not support Dean I kinda took offense.

Do I support the way Dean is running his campaign? Absolutely.

Do I hope it proves effective in fomenting more grass-roots efforts for more progressive causes? You bet your ass.

But ya know what, the "marketing campaign" being more important than the "product" is what got us in this mess in the first place. Consider the "marketing" vs. the "product" in the white house right now.

I will not vote in the primary for someone I do not agree with on a variety of fundamental issues. And calling me (or others like me) a corporate stooge and impugning our ability to "comprehend" the ramifications isn't gonna help your cause.

[stickdog]

206. Dammit. I can't argue with someone who refuses to address the fundamental

point.

Dean's is not just another grassroots campaign.

It's a fundamental revolution in the way a frontrunning national campaign is run (bottom up, with extremely significant independent local activism) and funded (with tens and hopefully soon hundreds of thousands of SMALL donations from regular people).

So unless you are a hardcore tilt-at-the-windmill Green (read: intent on going down with Kucinich's ship), what supposedly "fundamental" issues problems could you possible have with Dean that are more important than a complete revolution and revitalization of a national democracy of concerned, activist citizens?

To be blunt, suggesting Clark is left of Dean is a joke given both his background and demeanor.

So we are back to Kerry or Gephardt. Again, I have to wonder on what issues you see any FUNDAMENTAL differences between Kerry or Gephardt and Dean.

I just don't see any. Dean is a big step in the right direction on every issue. On a few select issues Kerry or Gephardt might be a little bigger step in the right direction -- but every one of these few issues is going to get filtered through a split (at best) Congress anyway.

Plus, both Kerry and Gep threw their lot in with PNAC for crass political reasons and have yet to admit their FUNDAMENTAL mistake in doing so.

[VelmaD]

212. Which part of...

I am not a centrist and do not throw my support behind centrists for the primaries did you not understand?

One more time, I am all in favor of grass-roots activism and I wish your candidate luck. I'm not opposed vehemently to him winning the nomination the way I am with a couple of the candidates. I hope you're right and that it revitalizes the electorate. But, I've heard that story before. And frankly, as a long-time activist I'm a little insulted by the notion that I'm somehow not a "concerned, activist citizen" just because I don't support your candidate of choice.

I may well go down with Kucinich's ship (I have not decided on that yet) but you know what, you may also go down with Dean's. You believe in him and that's fine but other people believe in other candidates just as strongly and that is their right.

BTW, I never once even intimated that Clark was to the left of Dean. In fact I never mentioned him. I wouldn't vote for him in the primary for one simple reason. I do not support the idea that someone who has never even run for dog-catcher should start their political life by running for President.

[stickdog]

221. The part in which you closed your mind.

I am not a centrist and do not throw my support behind centrists.


So then, who is your second choice to Kucinich?


One more time, I am all in favor of grass-roots activism and I wish your candidate luck. I'm not opposed vehemently to him winning the nomination the way I am with a couple of the candidates. I hope you're right and that it revitalizes the electorate. But, I've heard that story before.


When? With whom?


And frankly, as a long-time activist I'm a little insulted by the notion that I'm somehow not a "concerned, activist citizen" just because I don't support your candidate of choice.


You are willfully misinterpreting what I said in order to feel insulted. Please produce ANYTHING I said that comes ANYWHERE near this. I was promoting Dean's campaign model when I used those words, and I explicitly excluded Kucinich supporters from my whole argument.


I may well go down with Kucinich's ship (I have not decided on that yet) but you know what, you may also go down with Dean's.


To be perfectly blunt, at least I've got a shot in hell.


You believe in him and that's fine but other people believe in other candidates just as strongly and that is their right.


But you don't. At least not yet. And I was talking to you specifically.

[VelmaD]

230. Please quote me accurately...

I said I do not support centrists IN THE PRIMARY. That's an important distinction and I'd appreciate an accurate quote if you're going to try to use my words to paint me as closed-minded.

As I stated before, I have not settled on a candidate though Kucinich most closely mirrors my own views. Second behind him would likely be Kerry since he seems unashamed to be labeled a liberal. But I haven't decided yet. I'm trying to keep an open mind this early in the race.

As to when I've heard this story before. Every new person who becomes active in politics thinks their guy is THE GUY who is going to change the world. Hell, in '88 I thought Dukakis was going to change things forever. Ok, maybe I wasn't quite that naive. But close. :-) And I've seen it over and over with others. You never get so excited as you do for that first candidate that sets your political world on fire. I'm not trying to act all jaded. I'm still a true believer. I want to fall in love with a candidate again some day. I hope you're guy is THE GUY. Just don't ask me to support him in the primary when he's not the candidate I agree with the most philosophically.

You have not really answered the basic point of my original post as well btw. I think it was lost in here somewhere. I'll restate it once more for the record. It is possible to NOT support Dean without being a tool of the establishment. Telling supporters of other candidates that only serves to alienate them from your position.

[stickdog]

236. Carter was the first candidate that "set my world on fire."

And nobody's ever run a grassroots national campaign anything close to Dean's. That's not my starry eyes -- it's the OBJECTIVE truth by every possible OBJECTIVE measurement.

Kerry is an establishment candidate running a big money, fatcat, corporate financed establishment campaign. Where Kerry is to the left of Dean, the policy differences between Kerry and Dean are tiny and Dean's are generally more politically pragmatic (and hence not just untenable campaign promises).

But have fun supporting your one percenter and/or establishment candidate. I can tell the difference between someone who is purposefully closeminded (as in "Kerry's a liberal, Dean's a centrist, and that's all there is to it") and somebody I actually have a chance to convince. The latter are treated with a cordial tone, if you catch my drift.

Sorry about the misquote(s), FWIW.

[VelmaD]

240. Finally something we can agree on

I was 6 years old when Carter ran for president and I fell completely in love. He and Barbara Jordan are the reasons I care about politics.

You are correct about Dean having a new thing in terms of a national grassroots campaign and I hope it is not a one-shot wonder on our political landscape.

I have a feeling we're talking around each other and not to each other (a common problem on the net I think). So, I'm going to be as straight-forward as I know how and hope we get settled.

Ok, I like how your guy is running his campaign. If he wins the nomination or if the candidates to the left of him drop out before the TX primary I'll support him. He is VASTLY preferable to all but a couple of the other candidates as far as I'm concerned. And if it comes down to a choice between voting for Kucinich and seeing Lieberman or Clark win TX or voting for Dean then believe me I'll do the right thing. :-) I think Will had a legitimate question when he asked the Dean supporters if they would do the same if it comes down to it.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that choosing to go with a candidate who is liberal (like I am) rather than one who is a centrist is closed-minded but it's getting obvious that I can't blast that notion out of your head with a stack of dynamite so believe what you want.

[indigo32]

186. Gee

sounds like it's time to hear your loyalty pledge...
ya gonna vote for the nominee????????????????

[VelmaD]

189. As stated in my post just above yours...

I will vote for the Dem nominee. I ALWAYS have. I may not like them. I probably won't agree with them. I've only ever not had to hold my nose to vote maybe twice. But I'll do it because as much as I would loke to vote socialist or communist or something much farther to the left, I'm pragmatic and it's more important to keep the right-wing whack jobs out of office.

[LewisJackson]

179. Simply my opinion, but...

I think it is a realistic statement. There are some people who are just not going to vote for anyone else besides Dean. I know a lot of people my age were just destroyed when wither A.)Gore didn't win in 2000; B.)Nader didn't reach 5% in 2000; and C.)Misc. campaigns run where they tried there hearts out and fought for an election and just didn't win, and there is a major sense of heartbreak to it. Hell, my mom didn't vote in 1976 just because McGovern lost.

The fact is, there are a lot of kids involved with this campaign- college students who really want to make a difference and want to have someone actually fight the other side instead of just lie down and die over issues. Dean- if nothing else- is bringing fighting man's rhetoric, and that is very important to a lot of people. They don't want the same old guys.

And it's the fact that they're fighting for a certain set of beliefs that relate to one man, and one campaign. They're fighting for him for a reason. There are a lot who are going to be hard to sell Kerry or Edwards or Gephardt or Clark to.

And finally, I don't think it came out right. I know that this is a sort of copout, but seriously, I am skeptical of these types of statements just because they don't sound right. I mean, my guess is that Dean will jump in line, but the fact is that there are some people who just won't follow.

For the record, I don't like the statement either, and I am an undecided.

[janekat]

181. and what about him"going ballistic" on the other Dems....

your post also brings to mind something that bothered me about him (sorry Dean people). He went "over the top" several times when he attacked the other candidates. He then had to apologize. BIG no-no. IMO - you cannot go to the "extremes" that he has. It creates a lot of "ill will" and it scares a lot of people.

We currently have a non-diplomatic loose wire in the White House. The people who don't like Bush for this reason will NOT go to another person who they "see" as being another person with a "Bush" temperment.

It hit me when I saw a replay of the "genteel greatness" of Jimmy Carter at the signing of the Peace Treaty - we need nother "Carter." It was so comforting to see hime the other day. Someone "soft-spoken" and "low-key" who can bring everyone together (Europe, the Middle East, Dems and Pubs). The closest I see to this is Clark or Kerry. You can all fill in the blank here....

In addition, even though he seems to have somewhat learned his lesson, he now has a permanent "label" saying "short fuse" and "non-Presidential" temperment. Let's face it "Appearing Presidential" is one of the most important attributes. Whoever people think is "Presidential" win.

Dean used to be my early pick in this race. I spotted him and liked him before he even got in to the campaign. Either he is too wet behind the ears to know better or he can't control his temper.

[stickdog]

198. Give us the specifics of these cases.

Or would the fact that they are all petty and insignificant examples of Dean being too honest or not perfectly informed ruin your "argument"?

[janekat]

203. here's one example...

http://www.seattleactivist.org/Dean/DEAN-JUN-22-2003-Misfires-from-the-Hip-Create-Problems-Dean-Discovers.html

........ But the former Vermont governor is finding that his outspokenness can get him in trouble.

Last week, Dean issued what was his third apology to a rival presidential candidate. After telling the Associated Press that he did not consider Sen. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) a "top tier candidate," Dean recanted, telling the news service that he regretted the remark.

Earlier this year, he apologized to Rep. Richard A. Gephardt (D-Mo.) for tagging his broad health care initiative a "pie in the sky" plan. Before that, Dean apologized to Sen. John Edwards (D-N.C.) after accusing him, during a Democratic gathering in California, of muddling his position on the war in Iraq.

Aides to Dean's rivals, who have grown tired of his sharp elbows on the campaign trail, noted what they see as the risks of the ex-governor's missteps. "It's hard to be a straight-talk candidate when you spend most of your time apologizing for things you know aren't correct," said Robert Gibbs, a spokesman for Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.).

[janekat]

205. some more....

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/state2003/nh__dean_21_2003.shtml

"I'm not sure why Dr. Dean thinks it's in his interest to pick fights with other Democratic candidates, but he underestimates the former governor of the fourth largest state at his own peril," said Graham spokesman Jamal Simmons. "With all due respect, Bob Graham created twice as many jobs when he was governor of Florida than there are people in the state of Vermont."

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/deancrit.html
In talking about the segment of the welfare population that receives benefits as a permanent means of support, Dean said: "Those recipients don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working. They'd be trying to get out of a system that is essentially saying to them: 'You don't have anything to contribute. Take our money and then go away and beat the system.'"

http://www.seattleactivist.org/Dean/DEAN-MAY-02-2003-Dean-Sets-Tricky-Standard-for-Himself.html
He has mischaracterized some of his opponents' positions and fuzzed up his own. He has offered misleading statements, even as he challenges the integrity of others running. ("They need a backbone transplant," he told a union audience Wednesday in New York City.) Before the race even heats up, Dean has been forced to apologize to at least one rival for misspeaking, and he angered several others who privately seethe over his potshots. All of that could make Dean a prime target when the presidential candidates stage their first televised debate of the campaign Saturday night in South Carolina.

"A lot of careful thought goes into political strategy," said David Doak, a Democratic consultant who is neutral in the primary. "But things like anger, disdain, mistrust and grudges go a long way in explaining what sometimes ends up happening. may be kicking the hell out of everyone else in the field, but they may decide to kick back at some point."


http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/politics2003/091203deanflipflop_2003.shtml
Those who have watched Dean closely over the last six months know that he has tripped himself up well on many occasions before Labor Day. Last winter, Dean apologized to Edwards for wrongly accusing him of backing away from his support of the war in Iraq.

http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=5215
Later, Mr. Dean apologized, saying he hadn't been aware of what Mr. Edwards had said. But the charge rankled Mr. Edwards. According to The Boston Globe, he was overheard telling Mr. Kerry on the Senate floor that Mr. Dean "got up there and lied."

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/mar2000/news_aware.htm
Speaking to a small group of visitors on AIDS Awareness Day, Governor Howard Dean apologized for his now infamous "uncomfortable: comment. He said the remark was not intended as the slam many
GLBT people perceived.

[stickdog]

213. It's the bs "Dean's too outspoken" and "Dean's too impetuous" meme.

Nothing you posted means shit compared to one ludicrously idiotic Bush statement (out of literally thousands), one English-butchering Busherism (out of literally thousands) or one Bush lie (out of literally thousands).

And what about Reagan, Bush I and "I have lusted in my heart" Carter?

One of the primary reasons people respond so well to Howard Dean in person is because he's not a polished politician's politician like Edwards and Kerry.

There isn't one example of Dean misspeaking or "going too far" that can't be explained by him being too honest or else understandably uninformed (and then honestly apologetic about it).

[janekat]

222. You don't call THIS outrageous: Those (welfare) recipients don't have any

self esteem?????

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/deancrit.html
In talking about the segment of the welfare population that receives benefits as a permanent means of support, Dean said: "Those recipients don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working. They'd be trying to get out of a system that is essentially saying to them: 'You don't have anything to contribute. Take our money and then go away and beat the system.'"

[stickdog]

226. No.

1) It's from his 2000 governor's campaign.

2) It's what more than 75% of American voters believe.

3) There's some truth to it.

4) Clinton may have had his problems, but he was Ghandi combined with Einstein combined with Trotsky compared to Bush.

[w13rd0]

252. No, I don't consider that outrageous...

...as someone who has worked and dealt with those that considered welfare a permanent means of support, Dean was absolutely on target.

[scottxyz]

187. Bush vs Lieberman vs Dean

Now wouldn't THAT be a matchup. Give the Republicans some of their own splinter-party medicine: Watch Lieberman pulling votes away from Bush to make Dean the winner.

Of course, this won't happen, because Dean said he won't run as a third-party candidate.

But Will, I don't see Dean saying "these kids are not transferrable". In the quote you cite in your original message, it sounded like he was just saying that Clark got a late start, and might have a hard time in the primaries. That's what I took it to mean when he said "They're not going to suddenly go away."

Let the guy have some ego - let him keep saying he's the best man for the job. If Dean finds himself out of the running, that's the right time to parse his concession speech. On later occasions, he's already been saying he'll support the Dem nominee - which to me implies he wants his people to support the Dem nominee too.

[no name no slogan]

202. But the Repubs have "party discipline" moreso than Dems

The Shrub would still walk with the presidency-- Repubs have EXCELLENT discipline when it comes to voting for their candidates. The Dems, OTOH.....

[Romberry]

190. Will Pitt, just how many times are you gonna pull this crap?

This isn't the first time you've started this exact same type thread and this exact same type topic. I admire your writing but this crap gets a little old in a hurry. Surely you can recognize context and spin. If I didn't know better, and come to think of it I don't, I'd say you were purposely using your high name recognition on this forum to undermine Howard Dean. You are not stupid. Only a stupid person would pick up this spin and not check it out. You know better and this nomination process deserves better than to have one of our brighter lights act like a dim bulb.

[WilliamPitt]

192. Really

Prove it. Where have I asked legitimate questions about subjects upon which I was previously uninformed?

Oh wait. I do that all the time.

:eyes:

[davsand]

193. A lot of his support is not party regulars.

I've not read thru the entire list of responses so I apoligize if I'm echoing a statment made a bunch of times already...

I am a party regular here locally. When I went to a Dean meetup, I was amazed at the number of people there who are not on the radar for the active Dems in the area. I'm seeing a similar phenom for Clark. These are faces that I've never seen before and I am an activist!

It took me aback and I talked to the Dem party chair about it. She's noticed the same thing. Our local "Deanies" are passionate and active. When I did my last public event, we had NO lit from any other Presiential campaign except for Dean...

Our party decided to make the HQ available for Dean meetups and Clark meetups simply because we want to try and get these people in the fold.

When Dean made that coment I really think he was being practical about who his base is and what background they come from. You know they've done polling on it, and you know they've got data somewhere that shows the Dean supporters are NOT the usual primary voters. If I can notice it in my little 'burg, you can bet the guys on a national level noticed it too.

Laura

[kodi]

217. what dean has unleashed must be directed locally for real change

if the supporters of dean do not use their energy to transform the party locally, in their own communities and for a sustained period of time, then it will be seen as simply a fad, and politics as usual will flood back in.

we can not let this happen this time around. it is too important, and it is more important than any one man or woman, or any single election.

what dean, and gore before him have ignited has to be recognized for what it can be, a revitalization of our political process at the most fundamental level, but this means that it has to be a long term commitment by people actively engaged now. i wish the past were not always prologue to the future, but usually it is, and people lose attention to these sort of commitments to the political process once campaigns are over.

just as in time of war, as we commit ourselves to winning the war, we must also focus on winning the peace, and we must commit ourselves to winning in our communities each day after november 2004, regardless of who wins that election.

if this is the message dean carries, then i am all for him and this commitment.

[stickdog]

223. You are quite correct.

Some of us are working on this, but it's easier said than done.

[kodi]

237. doggie, i have been riped asshole to belly button by some deanies

whom i admonished for not keeping their eyes on the prize. i hope and pray that you are more indicative of dean supporters than they are.

we, as fellow progressives must realize that we will be engaged, throughout our entire lives in a Long March towards the type of society we desire, we must be committed to helping build a world for our children where it will be easier to be good, and must heed the words and vision of a great man who once told us:

"Well, I don't know what will happen now. We've got some difficult days ahead. But it doesn't matter with me now. Because I've been to the mountaintop. And I don't mind. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land. And I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man. Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord."

http://www.afscme.org/about/kingspch.htm

[Castilleja]

207. I think this post is a bit manipulative.

N/M

[WilliamPitt]

210. Thanks for your input

[DemBones DemBones]

208. Will, I started a thread about this some time back, perhaps a week

and a half or two weeks ago. I first read the "these kids are not transferrable" quote in one of the mini-articles on candidates at The National Review online and posted that link, including the quote from the LA Weekly article. Predictably, I was slammed by the Deanies, TNR was slammed by the Deanies, and the very existence of the LA Weekly article was questioned, with one Deanie claiming it didn't exist at the LA Weekly site.

So I did a search, easily found the article, and posted a second thread from the LA Weekly article itself, explaining that the reference had been questioned and I wanted everyone to be aware of the article's existence. I gave the link and mentioned that it's a lengthy article and necessary to scroll way down to find the quote. Again, I was slammed by the Deanies, with one of them attacking me for scrolling through the article to find the quote, assuming that I didn't read the article just because I tried to help others locate the quote!

There seems to be a lack of reading comprehension when Deanies read anything about Dean that should set off their alarm bells; they literally can't see anything wrong with anything the man says or does. If he made a speech advocating capital punishment for everyone convicted of a felony, any felony, I swear there'd be Deanies defending his position.


I wrote the above paragraphs before I read any of the replies in this thread and not one of them surprised me. They continue to make excuses for Dean, attempt to argue that his comments were taken out of context, whine that this is "old" and "has been posted before," post ad hominem attacks, ask "What about Kerry?" and so on. Not one of them convinced me that Dean will make a real effort to rally his supporters to throw their support to the nominee. Not one of them can see that Dean said something that should trouble anyone who wants to get Bush* out of office.


Dean has been convincing people that Bush* is bad for the country. That's great. If he doesn't get the nomination, he should be prepared to follow through and urge his supporters to vote for whoever is the Democratic nominee.

If he doesn't do that, it'll prove that everything he has said has been bullshit to get Howard Dean elected.

[Ellen Forradalom]

215. Let's put this in perspective.

This is becoming a tempest in a teapot.

The defensiveness of Dean's supporters (and other candidates' supporters, too) is attributable to the destruction of Al Gore in the media in 2000. Fear and anger about spin and bullshit has put many people on edge. Sometimes they don't direct their energies at the right target.

Also, zealots who email everyone in sight are a self-selecting population. I don't email and post all over the place defending Dean; I get on with thee day-to-day work of promoting him. Today I printed and posted Meetup flyers and brought materials to my local Generation Dean group. Tomorrow I will be having lunch with my meetup co-host to talk Meetup nuts and bolts, and then I'll be going to a committee meeting.

I didn't see the non-transferrable remark as the least bit threatening. Dean is bringing new people into the process, people whose idealism has been awakened. That's good, but it carries a strong risk of disillusionment. Their passion may not be transferrable, but their votes may be if Dean appeals to them. And I see no reason why he won't.

[DemBones DemBones]

247. That's putting it in the perspective of a Dean supporter, though.

I do not have your confidence in Howard Dean to appeal to his "kids"
(as he called his supporters) to vote for the Democratic nominee.

I am confident that Howard Dean would govern the country like a Republican and I don't think that's at all what we need I've been a registered Democratic voter since 1968 and I have less confidence in Dean than in any candidate I've observed over the years, going back to LBJ and JFK's primary and convention struggle for the 1960 nomination, the first primary I watched closely. Dean has made too many verbal gaffes and muddied his positions on the Mideast, Social Security, the war on Iraq, Medicare, so much that I don't know where he stands.

Dean has been convincing people that Bush* is bad for the country. That's great. But if he doesn't get the nomination, he should be prepared to follow through and urge his supporters to vote for whoever is the Democratic nominee.

If he doesn't, it'll prove everything he has said has been mere rhetoric to get Howard Dean elected.

[stickdog]

250. So you admit you like Lieberman better than Dean.

Which is it, Koochie?

Is Dean too left for you or too right for you?

Do you really have more confidence in the candidates attacking Dean from the right than you do in Dean?

[frank frankly]

214. I would be shocked if any candidate splinters off

Shocked! I don't think it is going to happen. The mobilized "left" will hopefully keep any of these candidates honest by voting for them and then keeping their feet to the fire. I know I am going to watching things more carefully from now on, including, as always, the Democrats.

But ABB all the way.

[bloom]

216. I don't see a threat...n/t

?

[ElementaryPenguin]

218. I agree, it sucks.

But if Clark edges him out, those kids will likely have a chance to vote for him as V.P.! I'm sure he'll ultimately tone shit like that down!

[BJ]

220. I'm no prude but your language offends me.

As a published author you should know that stooping to four-letter words to make a point weakens your argument, whatever that is.

In fact your rant is as incoherent as anything I've read in the past couple of years on the Internet, aside from spammer babbling.

As far as the meaning of the statement that set you off, Dean's just repeating conventional wisdom vis-a-vis Iowa and New Hampshire. As for his supporters, many are new to the political process and have no long time party loyalty. Whether or not, should Dean not get the nomination, these "Deanpers" cleve to the eventual Democratic candidate remains to be seen.

[SoCalDem]

225. McCain's supporters did not "transfer" to Bush

When people form an attachment to a candidate as a person, their allegiance is not necessarily transferrable..

It would be like you going out with a girl , and then when she breaks up with you, you expecting her sister to be your new girlfriend..

(there have been movies with just that plot, though :evilgrin:..)

[thinkahead]

224. "All of a Sudden I am very nervous about Howard Dean"

:wtf:

This is like your 4th Dean-related panic thread I've seen in the last week.

This fear-based stuff is why we Democrats lose. For someone with such a high profile - I'm amazed that you can't seem to accept the fact that Dean CAN win. Have you become that cynical?

You really should just accept the fact that the other candidates aren't really bringing anyone new into the process (nevermind what that says about them), and therefore are only in a position to try to win these newbies support if Dean isn't the nominee. It's really up to these new folks isn't it? - and I'm sure many of them have a unique position they are coming from. It's really quite funny watching the logic here. Dean is bringing in people who were not previously engaged in politics... why? Maybe because they were disenchanted with politics? Maybe? And now you expect them to line up with the people who pushed them away in the first place - without giving it a second thought? And the thought that they might not support candidate x makes you nervous about supporting Dean? Personally, I think it should make you nervous about not supporting him, but that's a matter of opinion I guess.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry so much - I'm sure whatever people would vote for candidate x will be enough to beat Bush (especially considering his recent poll numbers) - if it's not, well it's their own damned fault for not broadening their support, isn't it.

[bloom]

227. yeah - what she/he said... ^

[WilliamPitt]

245. Really? My fourth?

I'll donate $100 to the DUer of your choice if you can find the other three.

[nomaco-10]

229. Why don't you tell the truth?

Dean was never a "nanosecond" behind your guy Kerry, and you don't really want to be "straightened out", your motive is and has been for awhile to try to turn people here against Dean because he was the only threat to Kerry, now that Clark has thrown his hat in the ring, you're really worried. Maybe this is an unconscious effort on your part, but it sure is obvious to me.
And really, asking people on a messageboard to keep their "pledge to you" to vote for the dem candidate in 2004, whoever it is.
You posted a topic, I believe yesterday, whose topic line was "goddammit,goddammit,goddammit" I open it to find an hysterical post in regards to Al Jazeera being shutdown in Iraq. The same story with a link was posted in LBN with a tasteful and informative topic line, it received a few posts and yours received, what 60 70?
You are a respected presence on this board, and I'm sure you would never take intentional advantage of it. We all need to take a second before we click that post message sign.

[WilliamPitt]

244. Right

It's all about Kerry, you paranoid victim.

And you wonder why Dean people get a bad reputation?

[KaraokeKarlton]

231. Dean isn't going to run as an Independent

But he is concerned that if he isn't the nominee that those who support him may be so discouraged that THEY won't get out to vote in the same numbers they would if he gets the nomination. Maybe it's easier for me to "get" what he is saying because I'm as familiar with Dean as I am. Again, that's where being a Vermonter helps. Dean KNOWS (and has said this before) that third party candidates tend to pull votes away from Democrats. He knows how important it is to get rid of Bush, and he would NEVER run as an Independent and risk helping Bush get elected. He wouldn't do that in a million years. His morals and ethics are much too high for that.

[renie408]

232. Here's what I don't get...

Why are you getting nervous now? Didn't he make those comments quite awhile back and haven't they been common knowledge for awhile? Why, all of a sudden, are you nervous?

[renie408]

233. Sorry, my 'enter' button sticks sometimes

[sistersofmercy]

238. He's talking tough, I think it necessary at this stage.

Dems have to show they have a certain toughness to win the fencesitters, you know the Reagan Dems.

[Nazgul35]

242. Wow!!! What a surprise....

I haven't seen this little nugget before....

I am shocked, shocked I tell you.....

Are you serious with this....cause I know you have a reputation around here for being something of a smarty....

This has been posted in at least five threads over the last three weeks...all saying the same thing...AND ALL HIGHLIGHTING THE VERY SAME SENTENCES THAT YOU HAVE HIGHLIGHTED....

I do know if this is willfull ignorance on the part of people who just hate the very idea of Dean and choose to read into his words something that is not implied....

To understand the context, one needs to remember:

1) that this quote was from last March or April (look of the number of meetup members...or is that the number of registered volunteers...)

2) Anyone who has ever spent anytime with people who go to the meetups will realize that a significant portion of the people there are independents and "Dean Republicans" who may not have the same attachment to another Dem supporter...

So which is it? Either Dean supporters are mindless fools who will do whatever the governor says, or we are fectless "spliters" who are trying to undermine the Democratic party cause we really love that Bush guy....

And in a foot note....if you all wonder why the Dean supporters get soo pissy...this thread is why!! Since I have been here, this issue has been posted....with the same amount of incredulity and emphasis on the same to sentences, with the same interpretation....at least 20 times....

Rehash this nonsense over and over again...it isn't resonating with the average voter....

One more thing to consider....since when does any candidate automatically get the support of other candidates....I thought I was a member of a party that thought we would support each other based upon the issues and policy choices......

YOU SEE...SUPPORT MUST BE EARNED NOT GIVEN....and that was the point the governor was making, whether your fained indignation likes it or not....

[WilliamPitt]

243. You might has well have titled this post:

'I HAVE READ NOTHING IN THIS THREAD'

The issue has been settled.

And settled.

And settled again.

I guess you were too busy flying around scaring hobbits. :)

[farmbo]

246. Take your stress pill, Will...Dean doesn't speak in code....

What he says is what he means;its not pre-vetted. Just read those words and take them at face value.

His volunteers are uniquely dedicated to The Good Doctor. They will not swoon to Clark (or Kerry or Hillary)like bobbysoxers to Elvis.

But its not because he'll try to control them or exhort them to bolt the party if he loses the primary.

They are just pouring out their hearts to him-- many for the first time in any political campaign for any candidate.

He's their First Love.

They may settle, later on, for that nice CPA from their high school class, but they won't love him with the passion of a First Love.

[sistersofmercy]

248. Hey Will thanks for pointing out the Deaners are just like the Clarkies!

I honestly hadn't realized both go on attack mode. Wow! I'm ABB but nearly signed on with Dean, thought about donating money. Guess I'll just sit back for awhile.

[janx]

249. Have a beer or some milk tea or something. That's hardly a threat.

He's talking about his campaign staff. And he's probably right.

[WaterDog]

251. No threat, no way

I completely fail to see a threat here.
I've heard Dean say loud and clear that all of the Demo candidates are good people and he will support whoever gets the nomination and that there's no way in h*** that he would run as an independent, when asked directly.

Dean is tough and he's not going to bow down humbly to General Clark. He's going to fight even though he respects the guy and says so quite often.

His campaign is much more than just him--it's almost 420,000 people and counting and we're all counting on him. This is our chance to have government free (or at least freer) of special interests. A lot is at stake here. We have an opportunity to do more than just get a Democrat in office. Though I agree that getting rid of Bush is the most important, and I will get behind whoever gets the nomination. However, if it seems like the establishment screwed us becaused they didn't want someone like Dean to have the power, then I will be mad.

[jab105]

253. Completely different read on it.....

I'm a Dean and Clark person...no favorites in the two of them right now, still deciding...

But, my take on the quote is that he thinks his supporters are going to remain loyal to him during the primary season...they aren't going to just jump ship to Clark during the primary...that's perfectly acceptable....

I'm 100% sure that Dean would support the primary winner if its not him...

[JustJoe]

255. So now that someone has straightened you out

does that mean Dean is once again running
about a nanosecond behind Kerry in your
support-o-meter for the moment as of now
this very second now for the moment as of?