Making new friends on the internet via e-mails from strangers.

[trof]

A friend recently sent me a piece by Stan Goff, "An Open Letter to U.S. Troops in Afghanistan and Iraq".
http://www.counterpunch.com/goff06152005.html
(Great stuff, go read it.)

Well, he didn't send it just to me. Evidently he sent it to all on his e-mail list. And not "bcc".

About an hour later I got an e-mail from Marcy, a lady I never heard of.
She must have used her "reply all" button to spew the following:

None of you know me. I don't know you, either, and I apologize for this intrusion--it won't happen again. However, I cannot let Stan Goff's literary excrement pass by without comment. Following is the e-mail reply I sent to the good-intentioned soul who sent it to me. The reason I send this information to you is that what is being passed along is a destructive e-mail for purposes of undermining troop morale. I support the troops. I hope you do, too. People like Stan Goff see America as evil and will do whatever they can to make others believe it, too:


I was very disappointed to receive this e-mail. The profanity-laden writing, typical of ranting leftists, made it immediately suspect--not to mention the reference in the e-mail to counterpunch.org--a Marxist rag if ever there was one. Check it out for yourselves.

So I looked up Stan Goff on David Horowitz's excellent website, discoverthenetwork.org. Surprise, surprise! Stan Goff is a rabid leftist, as well as an anti-war activist. In the parlance of the left, an "anti-war activist" is someone who advocates peace only to defeat the United States. As you can see by Goff's own words, anti-war activists have no trouble supporting violence as long as Americans are killed.

I support the President and the war on terror on the Iraq and Afghanistan fronts. I believe that history will prove that Iraq was one of the most strategically feasible launching points for a war against a Islamofascism--a war started long before we knew about it. You have to engage the enemy somewhere. I've heard all of the arguments against the war--I find them either specious, ludicrous, irrelevant, or all three. War is hideous, but there are worse things. Please don't make the sacrifce of our brave troops meaningless--as people like Goff did in Vietnam--by forwarding this kind of propaganda to others. Below is information about Stan Goff and Counterpunch from discoverthenetwork.org.

Marcy goes on to quote far-right websites calling Goff a communist, etc., blah blah blah

Being no shrinking violet, I "replied all" also:
Dear Marcy,
When you have the law on your side, pound on the law, and when you have the facts on your side, pound on the facts, and when you have neither the law nor the facts on your side, pound on the table.

Rather than debate your opponent, call him a communist and ask him why he hates America.
trof

Marcy replied:
Gee, I thought that sending reports about Stan Goff's documented activities and Counterpunch's avowed political views was sending fact. My mistake. When you want to shut your opponent up, accuse him of calling you names. That PC crap doesn't work on me. It is interesting to note that you are the second person to respond to my e-mail by pasting quotes from soneone else. Try thinking for yourself.

I have blocked your name from my e-mail. The reason I replied to the original mail and sent it to eveyone I could was to try to counteract the type of lazy thinking that propagandists count on. You know, "A retired soldier wrote this, so it must be true" or "hey, they put a quote in there, they must be really smart".

We don't agree. You can't convince me, and I can't convince you.

Well...Marcy has certainly put me in my place by doing the e-mail equivalent of putting her fingers in her ears and repeatedly shouting "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"
Smooth move, Marcy.

[Pacifist Patriot]

1. And some people think the internet is different from real life.

What an obnoxious little exchange. I'm sorry you were subjected to that.

[havocmom]

2. When pounding on the table doesn't work...

kick it over, run and hide.

Marcy, that is what 2 year olds do. And ill mannered, immuture two year olds at that.

What is that term? Yellow Elephants? Or is it Yellow Bellied Elephants?

[getmeouttahere]

3. History will prove that Iraq will be....

the beginning of the end of the American Empire. Wanna lay odds?

[JuniperLea]

5. true

scary, but true.

[DURHAM D]

27. Yes, but the wingnuts will say it is the fault of the liberals because

they did not support the President and his vision for the future.
It will be our fault, it will be our fault.

[annabanana]

47. I don't wanna live in an American "empire"

America was never supposed to be an Empire...

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

4. How about a massive DU community reply to her?

She can't put her finger in her ears for every DU email address sent to her. Is that too evil?:evilgrin:

[havocmom]

6. trof would have to PM each of us cuz it wouldn't be nice to put her email

address on a forum in the public. Maybe elad could help trof with that? :evilgrin:

[havocmom]

7. of course, we would all have to use dummy addresses to send from

cuz I bet the bitch is a payback... err.. did I get that right? ;)

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

8. Didn't say it was "nice"-----hehehehehe

:evilgrin:

[Nothing Without Hope]

11. Nice fantasy, but we don't want to give any grounds for claiming

personal, organized harassment by DU. Besides, do you really think it would make a difference? She is yelling "LA LA LA" while sticking her fingers in her ears. And every day there are fewer people who believe what she says. Let her stew in her self-willed delusion and malice. We have other work to do with people who will listen when we end-run the suppressive Poodle Press.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

16. I know. It was just an evil fantasy, but fun to dream.

Wouldn't want DU to get into any trouble.

BUT If I ever hear that Dobson or other RW nuts use their resources to target non-political, non-celebrity types however, I may reconsider this point.

[Nothing Without Hope]

26. Nah, there are more effective strategies that can also be fun. For example

how about publicizing a whole series of graphics like this one, found in the May 25 issue of AllHatNoCattle.net. (May take a few seconds to load.)

http://www.allhatnocattle.net.nyud.net:8090/519.jpg

Let's make up some more, with the ugly faces and outrageous quotes of other rabid Fristians and other dubious Bush Administration boosters, side by side with contrasting quotes from people who have earned the respect of Americans. Nice marketing idea for the progressives, eh? I also think it would be much more fun than trying to play with the poisonous Marcy's very limited mind. Let the bastards condemn themselves in their own words. Incidentally, Falwell's quote is TAME compared to many others. And doesn't he look like a toad inflating his throat before a croak?

ed:typo

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

33. VERY good!

I like that idea.:thumbsup:

[trof]

20. Naw, I wouldn't do that.

However, I might post the url for this thread to what I now call "Marcy's Network".
;-)

[trof]

9. Another "reply all" I got.

Bobby Z sent this to Marcy and the rest of his/our newfound internet buddies:

Please tell us all how you personally support the troops in Iraq? (wave a flag? pay your taxes? Can you tell me the current death count?) answer is 1,742 but will be different tomorrow if not all ready increased...

One thing you need to remember that the American Bald Eagle has two wings. The right wing cares for the businesses and ecomony while the left wing is out to care for the individuals. To make a statement about leftist as something to be undesired is in itself degrading. If the Amercan eagle had two right wings, it surely could not fly. So in a world which you care to live in, there will be no left wing, no desent. To take orders blindly and without question. How can that be good for our country?

Bottom line, this Bush administration has lied to us since the run up to the 2000 election. I find it the height of hypocrisy that these men who needlessly will send our troops into harms way could not themselves answer this nation's call during Viet Nam.

I could go on for ever as there is quite a ton of material the Bush administration has given us but I will leave you with quotes by people more qualified than I for you to ponder.

"You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you stop to look fear in the face." — Eleanor Roosevelt

"Outscourcing is probably a plus for the economy in the long run"..Gregory Mankiw (White House Chief Economist)..02/10/04

"Cherish, therefore, the spirit of our people, and keep alive their attention. If once they become inattentive to the public affairs, you and I, and congress and Assemblies, Judges and governors, shall all become wolves."......Jefferson to Carrington 1787

Every gun that is made, every warship
launched, every rocket fired, signifies in
the final sense a theft from those who
hunger and are not fed, those who are cold
and are not clothed."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower April 16, 1953
"To announce that there must be no
criticism of the president, or that we
are to stand by the president, right or
wrong, is not only unpatriotic and
servile, but is morally treasonable to
the American public." ..President Theodore Roosevelt

"Force always attracts those of low morality." -- Albert Einstein

"A liberal is a man or a woman or a child who looks forward to a better day, a more tranquil night, and a bright, infinite future." .......Leonard Bernstein

"The great masses of the people ... will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

"Naturally the common people don't want war....but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or parliament, or a communist dictatorship. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."
Hermann Goering - Nazi Reichsmarschall

"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth becomes the greatest enemy of the State."
Dr. Joseph M. Goebbels - Nazi

"We should not march into Baghdad....To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us, and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day Arab hero....assigning young soldiers into a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability."
George Herbert Walker Bush (1998)

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching. It unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. The money powers prays upon the nation in times of peace and conspires against it in times of adversity. It denounces, as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes. Corporations have been enthroned, and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed."
Abraham Lincoln (1864)

"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."
Edward Abbey

In a 1946 essay titled "Politics and the English Language," George Orwell observed that all political language is designed "to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."



Is ours a government of the people, by the people, for the people, or a kakistocracy rather, for the benefit of knaves at the cost of fools?" - 1876 OED

"Only the educated are free."
Epictetus

[Nothing Without Hope]

13. This is excellent. Too bad she won't read it, but others on the email list

may. Thanks for posting.

[trof]

14. And Jerome from NYC chimes in with this:

Hi. Someone passed me along your email, and I thought it was quite funny. Your reference to Goff's writing as "Marxist Propoganda", is, I hope you realize, propoganda in itself. Nothing in Goff's article is Marxist in any way. Your characterization of anything Anti-War as Marxist is remarkably telling, and it is evidence that a partisan current pervades all facets of your analytics.

While Goff may be a Marxist (I don't really know), his argument is anything but. He has the right to dissent and disagree with the war as much as we all do.

I disagreed with the war, but in other ways I agree with you. First, it is my belief that the idea that the war in Iraq will stabilize the region is foolish. It is my opinion that it will destabilize the region further, creating more and more jihadists. As insurgents train in Iraq, and become seasoned in the art of assymetric warfare, it puts America at great risk. These folks will learn the tricks of the terrorism trade in Iraq, and will most certainly pass on their art, or use it to our peril once they leave the Iraq battlefield. You are correct in that this is a war that is utterly important to win. But it is only important to win because we started it.

I disagree with many liberals that are for a full withdrawl from Iraq. Hoever, within the democratic leadership, there are few that are currently calling for a full withrawl soon. I think at this point we owe it to the Iraqis to stick it out for a while longer. We should try some new things and see if we can turn it around. But, in all honesty, we may not be able to recover.

Anyway, your divergance from the core issue into a commie ranting is also very telling. I suspect that you are all things conservative to the core, and do not have the ability to cogently discuss issues outside of your partisan prison. No one talked about unions, affirmative action, etc, and your foray into this arena is as much the propoganda as you claim to abhor.

I don't know you and am imposing, but I don't care. You're obviously a disturbed individual, a byproduct of McCarthyism, so bent on liberal hatred and pinkoism that you cannot reasonably address any issue. In case you haven't looked around lately, communism is dead. Liberals of this era have never been farther away from communism than they are now. I suggest you look at some communist web sites to really see how diluted and impotent they have become.

Enjoy your victim mentality and proselytizations, they will serve no one but you.

This email was cleaned by emailStripper, available for free from http://www.papercut.biz/emailStripper.htm

[comsymp]

30. Damn, Jerome!

Now THAT'S a guy I'd like to smoke have a beer with!

[Nothing Without Hope]

38. Actually, Marcy isn't conservative at all. One of the things we need to

educate the public about - Dems, Repubs, and Independents all - is the deep betrayal of traditional Republican principles by the current administration. Truly, they are Republican in name only and not conservative by any stretch of the imagination:

• Fiscal responsibility? Hah!
  
• Concern about intrusion into private life by the government? Hah!
  
• Careful consideration of foreign "adventures"? Hah!
  
• Strict construction of the Constitution? Hah!

and on and on. These people are beyond radical, they are insane in their shortsighted greed. We need to be welcoming to Republicans of integrity who realize this. Moderate, sensible Republicans have far more in common with us progressives than they do with the out-of-control monsters in Washington.

edit:typo

[VOX]

15. His excellent reply has far too many quotes for Marcy...

Her head might implode! :evilgrin:

[flamin lib]

10. I have come to the conclusion that Democrats and Republicans

live in completely different universes. The laws of physics, logic and order are completely different for the two species.

Look at the polls. Bush Job rating is 43% positive 55% negative and 2% no friggin' clue. Then look at the break down. Republican approval is 80%, Democratic approval is 20%. Mirror images.

Where the difference comes in is the independents. Approval from them is 20%, solidly with the Democrats at present.

There are 30% on both sides that cannot be reached or reasoned with because they simply cannot communicate. Then there is the 30% that can bridge the gap, moderates and independents.

To attempt to change either of the 30% hard liners is an exercise in futility and frustration.

[Nothing Without Hope]

22. There are Republicans of integrity, who support the TRADITIONAL beliefs

of their party, and they are outraged. Please read this compelling LTTE from one of them, an Oregon attorney who was a 25-year GOP member before he quit:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1890603
Thread title: "As of today, after 25 years, I am no longer a Republican."

We need to be welcoming to these disaffected Republicans of integrity, giving them an alternative other than despair or apathy. We can always get back to the traditional arguments between real GOPs and Dems AFTER we stand together with them to save the country from this overwhelming current crisis.

We also need to write more articles and LTTEs on how profoundly different the current GOP is from the traditional Republican Party. Bush and his cronies have betrayed their party as well as everyone else and the world itself.

[trof]

31. I think you're on to something.

Two different worlds...
We live in...two different worlds.
Anybody remember that oldie?

[VOX]

12. "...War is hideous, but there are worse things..." Kind of says it all...

Marcy is truly a loyal party member. She'd turn in a few family members if deemed necessary to "total victory." So glad that she appreciates "David Horowitz's excellent website."

Marcy is what every American should aspire to be: loud-mouthed, self-righteous, hate-filled, offensive, vulgar, and yes, just plain stupid. :sarcasm:

[trof]

32. There are worse things than war until you've actually been in one.

And then you know different.

[gratuitous]

17. Yeah, stranger emails can be a royal pain in the tuckus

I'm still waiting for this guy in Nigeria to send me my share of $60 million the former prime minister there spirited out of the country! I gots big plans for that money.

[tanyev]

18. Hey, it turns out I'm next of kin to some guy that went down in an

EgyptAir plane crash. He had 72 million just waiting to be claimed. I can't wait.

[northzax]

37. Dude! we're cousins!

you coming to the reunion this year?

[tanyev]

46. Damn!

You mean I have to share that money with you?

:+

[trof]

19. Unbelievable...more from Marcy:

She has cut ME off, but continues to foul my inbox.
Silly woman.

Dear Jerry,

Obviously you do not know how to read, so have someone read this reply to
you.
I never said that "anything anti war is marxist propaganda". Your assertion
that I did is quite telling as well. You are a knee-jerk liberal. I don't
recall wanting to silence dissent, either. My e-mail was dissent.

Obviously you did not read far enough to see the information I included
about Goff's activities and Counterpunch's ideology which is public
information.

By the way, another definition of a "partisan" is someone who has actual
beliefs.

Nor did you read far enough to see the nonsense sent to me by rzanakis (left
cares for the individual--hah!) to which I was responding--with info about
affirmative action, etc.

I wonder how and where would you propose that we fight the jihadis? We were
attacked. Don't give me that garbage about only going into Afghanistan. We
were bombed at Pearl Harbor, and no one had a problem going into Germany.
No one said that the war would be easy, no one said that mistakes would not
be made. As I stated in a different message to someone else regarding this
issue, you can't silence your opponent by crying "McCarthyism" anymore.
Political correctness is losing its effectiveness.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

21. She uses mighty big words for a Kool-aid drinker....Karl, is that you?

Could Marcy really be a pudgy little male creature currently working in the WH?

[tanyev]

24. "We were bombed at Pearl Harbor, and no one had a problem

going into Germany." Wow. I don't even know where to start with all the ignorance that reveals.

Poooor Marcy. Looks like she is being attacked. Persecuted! And is "Jerry" Jerome in NYC? Did he give her permission to call him Jerry?

[CJCRANE]

43. Reminds me of a scene in Animal House:

"Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

"Germans?"

"Forget it, he's on a roll".

[flamin lib]

25. Keep using "Reply to All" and ask for someone on the list to

forward the email to Marcy. Make an end-run around her email block. Really piss her off!

BTW, is she still showing the mailing list in the header? I like using the Reply to All feature to let the list know that this sweet person has just published all those private email addresses to the whole Internet! It's like trolling--a chain email that collects addresses for spammers, you know the ones like "Bill Gates will give you $5 for every email you forward to." I then suggest that they use their email block feature to make sure she can't send it out any farther.

[magellan]

28. This woman is a fruit loop

"We were bombed at Pearl Harbor, and no one had a problem going into Germany."

EH? So...al Qaeda (a group, not a country) attacks us on 9/11, and...where's the analogy between Germany -- who declared war on us three days after we declared war on Japan -- and Iraq?

Kool-aid logic.

[Nothing Without Hope]

35. Some people have put such a heavy emotional investment in believing

what they are told by the Bush administration, they cannot bear to hear the truth. It's a form of insanity, I believe, because it's a denial of reality based on fear. Just imagine how devastated these people would be if they faced evidence even THEY could not deny. We live in an infinitely more complicated and dangerous world than they have permitted themselves to perceive.

This resistance to an ugly reality is one reason why the Big Lie technique works so well for the Bushies, as it did for the Nazis.

"In view of the primitive simplicity of their minds they more easily fall a victim to a big lie than to a little one, since they themselves lie in little things, but would be ashamed of lies that were too big.

"Such a falsehood will never enter their heads and they will not be able to believe in the possibility of such monstrous effrontery and infamous misrepresentation in others; yes, even when enlightened on the subject, they will long doubt and waver, and continue to accept at least one of these causes as true."
--Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, part I chapter X

----------------------------------------------------------

“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” --Voltaire

[northzax]

39. so what she's saying is

instead of Iraq, we should have invaded Germany? :shrug:

[CJCRANE]

23. "You have to engage the enemy somewhere"

Well, why doesn't she get over there herself and let one of the coalition troops come home to their family while she sacrifices herself in an arbitrary war with an arbitrary enemy.

[IrateCitizen]

29. Since I know Stan Goff a little bit, I wouldn't know where to begin...

First off, Stan is not simply a "former soldier". He served for 23 years total in the active army, served as an infantryman in Vietnam, and went on to spend a good portion of his career in Special Forces and some of the military's most elite units (including "Delta Force").

Secondly, Stan currently has a son serving in Iraq.

Third, Stan IS an avowed leftist, but he is certainly NOT a pacifist of any sort. It's just that when you spend over 20 years of your life trying to help other people through an organization that is more dedicated to killing them, you might tend to grow a bit disillusioned.

If there is someone qualified to speak on the horrors of war from experience, it is Stan Goff. I would doubt that this "Marcy" has any idea of the things that Stan has seen and done in his life.

[trof]

40. Bobby Z e-mailed your reply to Marcy's Internet Buddies Club.

I sent the url for this page to them.
Well done!

[trof]

34. Wow! More from Jerome.

(We need this guy at DU.)

"Obviously you do not know how to read, so have someone read this reply to
you."

LOL! Nice start!

"I never said that "anything anti war is marxist propaganda". Your
assertion that I did is quite telling as well. You are a knee-jerk liberal.
I don't recall wanting to silence dissent, either. My
e-mail was dissent."

Look at the subject line of this email! How can you say above without
feeling dirty and disingenuous? Goff's article was anti-war, and had nothing
to do with Marxism. Your basic argument asserts that if I am a Marxist, my
musings on the decline of the quality of Cheesecake in this country would be
"Marxist Propoganda" as well. It's the same rationale.

And, your email is not dissent if used in the context most people use it in.
Dissent is disagreeing with the government, not disagreeing with 5 other
people. Anyway, I never said you were attempting to silence dissent, you are
just distorting the dissent and mischaracterizing it as Marxist, AKA,
communist.

"We were bombed at Pearl Harbor, and no one had a problem going into
Germany."

LOL! Germany declared war on us! Not to mention that there was a real
relationship between the two, not some trumped up pseudo-relationship.
Moreover, they were pounding our allies, taking over countries left and
right, and messing with our support of our allies by attacking our ships.

Look, you can tell me about connections between Iraq and al Qaeda, all day,
none of them are significant, and not everyone believed them at the time as
your side so often states. The al-qaeda connections were in Kurdish areas
where Ba'athists didn't even really go. The United States had a better
chance of getting al qaeda members in that area than Saddam did.

I don't really care about your opinions, they are just NewsMax/Limbaugh/Ann
Coulter talking points anyway. The WWII parallel emerged from desperation,
not solid historical analysis. If it was so salient, then why wasn't it
touted at the begining?

Take it easy,

-Jerome

[MsUnderstood]

36. Jerome for president

I love the ending "Take it easy!"

[Nothing Without Hope]

41. We need to get this thread on the Greatest page - it's a beaut! n/t

[trof]

42. Welcome back to DU, Evelyn.

It's a 100 degree day here in Texas.
I'm supervising summer school and
sneaking peeks at the email. This has
been a hoot.
I feel like Alice fallen through the
looking glass. Isn't the internet a
weird and wonderful place? Thanks for
the link to the demo underground, I
hadn't been there since right after the
election!

Evelyn
--
Laughter is the closest thing to the
grace of God.

[trof]

44. Kick for the working class.

;-)

[Nothing Without Hope]

45. I'm glad this finally made the Greatest Page.

It's one of those threads that repays reading through from OP to end.