Hybrid Cars

[ls317]

How many here are owners of hybrid cars,there is a 3-4 month wait for the Toyota Prius in my local area.
I am wondering if gas does hit three dollars a gallon here in the midwest. Damn what are gas prices going to look like on the west coast then?

[jobycom]

1. I have a Prius. If you want to skip the waiting list

try monitoring Ebay. I got a 2004 last year when the waiting list was six to eight months. The car had 1300 miles on it, and I bought it just below the MSRP amount he paid for it.

There are two types of sellers, though. Many of the Priuses are dealers selling the cars way over sticker. You bid, and if they don't get enough for it, they pull the auction and list it again. Others are people selling their own cars. That's the kind to get.

I drove from Austin to Connecticut to get mine, and I love it dearly.

If you're worried about gas prices, though, investigate diesels and biodiesel, or vegetable oil. Diesel engines can run without modification off of biodiesel, which is diesel fuel made from vegetable oil. You can make it yourself (with a little effort), even, and use a restaurant's waste oil, often available for free. It isn't petroleum-free, it is about 20% methanol. Or you can convert your diesel for about six hundred bucks to run on vegetable oil. Do some reading on it (just google "biodiesel" and "waste vegetable oil"), though. It's a little extra work, and not for everyone.

Just a summary. I've done a lot of research recently, and have to spill it out somewhere!

[ls317]

2. Thanks

The first gas price spike here in Indianapolis,local dealer sold 102 of them in 6 days... The dealers here have some type of morals because they sold them right at MSRP

[jobycom]

4. A lot of dealers had morals, but a few didn't. I had a dealer offer to sel

me one he had specially ordered for another customer, if I would pay 3K over the sticker. The customer, who had probably been waiting months, would have just been SOL.

Most dealers seemed better than that.

One other thing to try: autotrader.com. You can search the whole nation for used Priuses (2004 and 3005 are the new style). I did that and found a couple with very low mileage, when I was looking.

[barb162]

8. Can you name some biodiesel cars, the brand names, who makes

them?

[Blue Belle]

10. Most Diesel cars/trucks made in the late 90's can use biodiesel...

VW hase been running biodiesel in thier diesel engines in Germany for well over a decade.

Here's a list of Biodiesel cars/trucks:
http://www.grassolean.com/index.html?textFile=dieselcars

[jobycom]

12. Any diesel engine runs on biodiesel

Some cars who make diesel engines are Mercedes (you can get 20 year old MBs fairly cheap, if you just want to experiment) and VW. You can buy diesel trucks and SUVs by most manurfacturers. There are some other brands who make diesels, but they don't have as models. A good way to find them is to go to Ebay and search for diesel cars, since there are so many people selling cars on Ebay (I'm really not trying to pimp Ebay, I just find it useful for this type of thing).

Biodiesel is hard to find, and right now it's more expensive than regular diesel, but it burns cleaner than a hybrid. You can make it if you have a supply of vegetable oil and methanol (you can get it at some airports, racetracks, and racing supply places). There are instructions all over the web for making it. Read a few of them, though, because some make it seem easier than it is.

If you find commercial biodiesel, you'll see a rating system, ranging from B20 to B100. That's the percentage of biodiesel in the mix--the rest would be "dinodiesel." You can mix regular and biodiesel without any problems, or you can run biodiesel normally and fill up with regular diesel in a pinch, again with no side effects.

Theoretically, any car made before 92 shouldn't be run on anything higher than B20, because of rubber fuel lines which could break down. A lot of people say this is not really a problem, but it's something to look for.

To run a car off vegetable oil, you can buy almost any diesel and buy a conversion kit. Some models do have problems with vegetable oil, so do some research before buying.

I'm at work, so I don't have my normal bookmarks. Google will give you a lot of websites. There's a central webpage that lists everywhere in the contry you can buy biodiesel.

And btw, this isn't new. People have been making biodiesel since at least the 70s, and running cars of vegetable oil, especially in Europe, for a long time. Rudolph Diesel originally built his engine, in the late 1800s, to run off vegetable based oils.

[Beaverhausen]

20. Doesn't an engine have to be modified to run on biodiesel?

That what I had heard.

[jobycom]

21. No, with a minor exception

Some people claim that cars made before 92 will have problems with 100% biodiesel because of rubber fuel lines and washers, and they recomment changing out the rubber parts. Others swear that this is more of a theoretical problem. I have heard of people tinkering with injection timing and such to fine tune the engine, but it's not required.

Biodeisel is just like regular diesel, except that it is also a solvent, unlike diesel. It will clean out the junk in your fuel system, and most people with older cars will have to replace their fuel filters after a few hundred miles, as all the junk is caught in the system. But the engine itself needs no modifications to run off biodiesel.

Remember, this is only for diesel engines. No modification will let a gas engine run off biodiesel.

You may be thinking of Waste Vegetable Oil, which requires some modifications to burn properly.

[Beaverhausen]

22. I thought waste veggie oil was biodiesel

that is what I was thinking of. Thanks.

I guess I have to read up on biodiesel some more.

[jobycom]

24. Biodiesel can be made from WVO

Basically, you have to start a chemical reaction in the vegetable oil which causes it to mix with methanol. It then becomes diesel fuel.

Many diesels can run off clean vegetable oil that has not been treated, but some cars (most) require modifications to prevent the vegetable oil from gumming up the injectors. Waste oil can be used, too, but it needs more modifications to heat it before it is burned, to melt the trans fats (I'm reciting what I've learned here, the actual chemistry is way over my head).

Also, with veg oil, you usually need two tanks (except the old 5 cylinder Mercedes). You have to start the car on diesel, then switch to veggie oil, then switch back to diesel just before you shut the engine off. The reason is to clean the system of veggie oil, which will cool and gum things up over time. Most conversion kits consist of a second tank, extra fuel lines, and often a heating system either in the tank or the filter.

If you make a lot of short trips and kill the engine a lot, veggie oil has it's limitations. Biodiesel has no such problems, but it is more expensive, and still not completely petroleum free (you can make it petroleum free by using ethanol, but it's supposed to be a very tough process.

There is a third way. You can mix veggie oil with regular diesel in the same tank. Some cars do better than others with this, and some won't run at all. The process will cause problems, though, eventually coking up your fuel system on most cars (thos 5 cylinder MBs being a possible exception. They are rumored to run on mashed bananas! That's what I have, but I've not been old enough to risk it, yet.)

Here's a great site: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html
There is plenty there on all options, plus links to other pages.

[Selatius]

3. If you can't get a hybrid, I'd recommend a Honda Civic or Accord

If you drive easy and don't gun your engine, you should rarely dip below 30mpg.

[jobycom]

7. Good choices. Honda also makes a hyrbrid, usually without a waiting list

The big difference between the hybrid and the Civis is the emmissions. THey are Partial Zero on the hybrid, if I recall, and only Super Ultra Low on the civic.

[Beaverhausen]

5. I have a Prius...Toyota sends lots to California so we have no wait

but we also can't order what we want.

I love it so far...I'm getting around 45 MPG and that goes up all the time. (I only have 1250 miles on it)

It's worth the wait. Its comfortable, roomy and has lots of safety features.

Go to http://www.priuschat.com for lots more info.

[ls317]

6. Price Mark Up

How much of a markup is it there in California???From the MSRP

[Beaverhausen]

14. I paid MSRP - the "mark up" is over

from what I read no one in CA should pay above sticker and some dealers are even taking a little off. But like I said they sell more here than any other state - I think it's somewhere near 60%.

[BeeBee]

9. We have 2...

We have a 05 Prius and 06 Highlander. Absolutely love both of them. The Prius gets about 45 mpg and the Highlander gets about 30. We have been dealing with the same dealership for several years so there was no above sticker mark-up. On the other hand, there is no negotiation room either.

[MurrayDelph]

11. I've had my 2002 Prius for over three years now

at almost 68,000 miles I had my first problem with it: my
ignition key stopped working (Had to use the wife's key for
a couple of days until I could take it in).

While at the dealership (in Simi Valley), they had a couple of
Hybrid Highlander Special Editions on display. It gets the
same kind of mileage as a non-hybrid car. And there they were
asking for a big "market demand" mark-up.

[jobycom]

13. I've seen them with over 200K miles. The engines last a long time

because they aren't running all the time. The engine runs half to a third of the time off the electric motor, so the engines have less wear on them. You'll notice that if you change your own oil.

The long-term problem may come from the batteries or the electric engine, though. No one knows how long they willlast, though Toyota warranties the batteries for seven years.

[ls317]

16. I recently saw

That they are training public safety personal, on how to make rescues where in cases if the jaws of life are being used. In areas of cutting into the car because of the battery system and the electrial wiring within

[MurrayDelph]

18. Yeah, that's why my wife got the non-hybrid Civic last year.

She figures we should wait out the lifetime of the first hybrid
(including batteries if necessary) before committing both cars.

[lectrobyte]

15. Of the 3 dealers in my area, two had some in stock, the other

one said he could get me one within a month if I was flexible about the option packages. On edit: I'm referring to Toyota dealers in the Raleigh/Durham area, and Prius availability. Don't know how they'd be on the price, but the one dealer I talked to said they were going for list, but then I'd expect him to say that...

[Technowitch]

17. We have the '04 Prius

Great car, we've never had a moment's regret. Excellent mileage (50+ on the highway for us), roomy, lots of features.

As for the waiting period, you could try further afield for a shorter list.

[garybeck]

19. better than hybrids - biodiesel

get a diesel car and run it on biodiesel. it's the simplest way you can drastically reduce your consumption of petroleum. IN fact you can cut it down to zero, as compared to hybrids which only reduce your consumption by 30%, and at a greater cost.

[jobycom]

25. Biodiesel is not petroleum-free

It's about a quarter methanol. You're right that it's cleaner and less petroleum based, usually, though (depending on the mileage).

The drawbacks are that it's a little difficult to make, it requires a veggie oil source, and it's hard to find in some places already made. Plus, it's still expensive.

Worth the effort, for sure, but for those who wouldn't make the effort, hybrids are the next best thing.

[MurrayDelph]

26. Same problem as with electric cars

Getting refueled while on the road.

Earlier this month, I drove from Los Angeles to Oregon.
Gassed up in San Bernardino, Mammoth Lakes, Reno NV, Klamath Lakes OR,
Chemult, Troutdale, Yachats, Yreka CA, Westley, and Northridge.

Lots of gasoline available for my Prius. Regular petro-diesel, too.
No sign of bio-diesel.

[ls317]

27. ?????

How many fill up did it take for you to make that trip???

[ls317]

28. ?????

How many fill ups did it take for you to make that trip???

[GumboYaYa]

23. Consider a Scooter....

I got one in October and got rid of my car. Since then I have used 12 gallons of gas. It is my only transportation, but my wife has a car for hauling the kids around. I made it through a St. Louis winter riding everyday. I spend about fifty cents a week on gas and have a blast riding from place to place.

<ON EDIT> I get 75-80 mpg in the city, which is way better than Prius under the best conditions.